╌>

It's simple, really... ... ... by Bob Nelson

  

Category:  Religion & Ethics

Via:  bob-nelson  •  8 years ago  •  174 comments

It's simple, really...     ...     ... by Bob Nelson

And one of [the Pharisees], a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Matthew 35-40, ESV

last_supper.png

peanuts.png Mark and Luke tell the much same story in much the same words. They may have copied from one another... the stories may have been re-edited over the centuries... but in any case, the people who wrote the story must have been pretty sure that it represented Jesus's central message.

That message couldn't be more straightforward: " All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” There is no fine print . There are no exceptions .

Love God and your neighbors. End of message.

 

Just in case there's someone who doesn't understand, John insists:

So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

1 John 4:16, ESV

 

lehrer2.png John was anything but wishy-washy on the subject! He had no patience with those who misappropriated Jesus's message:

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 4:20-21, ESV

That's another simple sentence: "If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar ..." Jesus and hatred cannot exist together. Period. No fine print; no exceptions.

 

 

Not that anyone thinks this is easy. Hey! It would mean that I couldn't hate... "them"!

I couldn't hate those "others" who don't think like me. I like to hate narrow-minded bigots! I like the feeling of superiority I get from looking down my nose at mean-spirited egotists. I like to hate the short-sighted idiots who... well... you know what I mean...

But... ummm... no fine print... no exceptions. I don't have to agree with racism... but I may not hate the racist. I don't have to like or accept antisocial behavior from trolls, but I may not hate the troll.

That's hard. I have some racist, bigoted, antediluvian trollish neighbors who are a lot easier to hate than to love. But... no fine print... no exceptions...

narrow_gate.png

 

For the gate is narrow
    and the way is hard that leads to life,
and those who find it are few.

Matthew 7:14, ESV

 

 

Breathe deeply, and keep on tryin'...


 


Tags

jrDiscussion - desc
[]
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    8 years ago

Or... to paraphrase Gandhi...

I like your Christ, but your Christians don't resemble him very much...

 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
link   JohnRussell    8 years ago

People are not perfect, to the contrary, human beings are "fallen" creatures. We don't know quite how or why, but it is obvious that virtually all people are flawed. The minute few that are not are referred to as great spiritual masters and teachers. 

We wonder what is the meaning of life. Maybe it is to identify and strive to overcome these flaws. 

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  JohnRussell   8 years ago

Christ was not a fool. He never required perfection. He required sincere effort. 

That's hard enough! 

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
link   Dean Moriarty  replied to  Bob Nelson   8 years ago

What happens to those that don't meet his requirements?

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Dean Moriarty   8 years ago

What happens to those that don't meet his requirements?

They follow some other leader. Some leader who is okay with hate. There are lots of them around  nowadays. 

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
link   Dean Moriarty    8 years ago

One more reason I love being agnostic. I don't have to fight with myself. No hugs for Hitler from me. 

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Dean Moriarty   8 years ago

Hi, Dean, 

Are you saying that goodness only exists when religion is present? You might want to chat with Perrie, whose Reply just below doesn't seem to agree... 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
link   Perrie Halpern R.A.    8 years ago

People should be good, not because god tells them to be, because then they do it out of fear. People should be good because it is the right thing to do. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
link   Perrie Halpern R.A.    8 years ago

Look we all know the "Golden Rule". Do unto others... etc. That is good. We all have those internal right from wrong mechanisms... we just chose to ignore them.

 
 
 
Dowser
Sophomore Quiet
link   Dowser    8 years ago

Great article, Bob!

Sometimes, loving everyone is VERY hard to do.  Or at least, it is hard for me to do.  But, no matter what, I have to try to do so, even my brother-in-law that I would love to thump over the head with a 2X4.  (Only if I can use the pointed end...)  And my poor sister-in-law, who is so utterly nutty.

We had a family shower for my step-daughter on Sunday, and, as usual, any encounter with that side of the family takes me about 3 days to get over...  I love all of them, even my brother-in-law, somewhere, but he is such a tactless, ego centric, worthless scrum it is very difficult to get along with him.  Basically, to keep peace, I must tell him how completely marvelous he is, how intelligent he was to steal from his own step-children, (he found all this money!), and how his sister, really needed him to take all her money to fritter away on his boat dock for his house, while she had no heat in her apartment, (owned by another brother who ran out of $$ to fix it up for her).  I guess, when you pay no rent, you get what you pay for, whatever it is...  ARGHH!  I came home and took a shower to get the filth off of me, and then, went to bed to contemplate life in the countryside.

I spent some time with the nutty sister, and all I can say is that I am very glad that I don't have to see her every day, and deal with her.  She, too, lives in an alternate reality-- not politically, but daily, as in life.  It is very difficult to carry on a conversation with her, about anything...  And I mean anything.  I've been the gamut from "So you like macaroni and cheese?" to "What a pretty sweater-- it looks so wonderful on you-- you have a really good sense of fashion!"-- this while she wears her own hair, a wig stuffed on top, AND a hat.  At least she is warm...  I've been through the, "So, when you were a kid, and my husband was off racing motorcycles, did you miss him?"  She asked me, "Was he gone?"  ARGHH!

Soon, I hope, we can move-- away from all this family stuff, and just be us again. Quiet and peaceful.  At least a couple of hours away...  Watching the spiders spin their webs in the corners, and hope the gravel of the drive way doesn't migrate off into the flower beds...  We have been commanded to attend Christmas Eve at the elder brother in law's house, with their nine children, spouses, and 3-6 children each, about 1/2 of which have ADHAD.  Along with the basic group and their children and grandchildren...  There is no place to sit quietly, except outside on the porch, which, if I have to go, I may just dress warmly enough to do so-- but, being a main event, I will take enough of something to feed everyone and then hopefully, be able to skadoodle out the door into the night.  I'd rather take to my bed, in all honesty...  

My step-daughter was hospitalized Monday night, due to dehydration, but she is home now, and doing AOK.  Thank you, Lord, for keeping her and her baby safe.  Not much longer to go-- and the doctor seems to think that little Gabby will arrive early.

So, I'm going to pray for her health and her baby's health, and that I can manage to keep from killing an in-law, and that peace reigns in my valley...  I will pray for a sense of benign calm and peaceful smiles...  And a plane ticket to somewhere quiet, where I can think on sea water. or trees, or farm ponds, and how wonderful it is...  And I will continue to try to be nice to my brother in law and poor sister in law...  My family is all dead, so this is it, for me.  It makes me glad, in many cases, that we share no genetic heritage, which is a nasty way to feel, but thank you, Lord, just the same.

angel  

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Dowser   8 years ago

Ah, family, 

A "special case" of "love your fellows". With most folks, if you realize that "loving" just ain't gonna happen... you can walk away. Have nothing to do with them. If there's no "love"... at least there's nothing negative. 

Ah, but family! You can't walk away. You must try...

Thanksgiving was created to test our Christian love for people we would really prefer to hate.  

 
 
 
Dowser
Sophomore Quiet
link   Dowser  replied to  Bob Nelson   8 years ago

I've been tested for a long time, here...  But, I manage to smile sweetly and be pleasant.  I said nothing, and followed the rules of engagement-- Yes, you're wonderful, yes, you're brilliant, and yes, you are a selfless, caring person...  But, after an afternoon of being "nice", it was all I could do to stomach myself.  I went home to shower and bed...  

Sometimes, just getting along together requires a superhuman effort.  Forget actually meaning all that.  I'm just making a superhuman effort to 'get along'.  

However, if my brother in law hits his wife or kids or grandchildren in front of me, Katie bar the door!  I can deal with the sister-in-law easier, because she has the emotional maturity of a 10 year old.  That somehow makes it more excusable.  However, again, if she tries to physically harm any of us, she had better watch out.  She is 6' tall, weighs 180 pounds, and is very volatile.  She could flatten me easily-- but I'm not able to stand back and allow her to bully the others.  Especially the children or animals...  thumbs up

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
link   JohnRussell    8 years ago

Excerpted with permission from "The Soul of Christianity" (HarperSanFrancisco).

 

by Huston Smith

...Everything that came from Jesus' lips worked like a magnifying glass to focus human awareness on the two most important facts about life: God's overwhelming love of humanity, and the need for people to accept that love and let it flow through them in the way water passes without obstruction through a sea anemone.

Time after time, as in his story of the shepherd who risked ninety-nine sheep to go after the one that had strayed, Jesus tried to convey God's absolute love for every single human being and for everything God has created. The hairs of each head are counted. God notices the death of each and every sparrow. And not even Solomon in all his glory was as majestically arrayed as the lilies of the field. If the infinity of God's love pierces to the core of a being, only one response is possible--unobstructed gratitude for the wonder of God's grace.

Stated slightly differently, the only way to make sense of Jesus' extraordinary admonitions as to how people should live is to see them as cut from his understanding of the God who loves human beings absolutely and unconditionally, without pausing to calculate their worth or due.

We are to give others our cloak as well as our coat if they need it. Why? Because God has given us what we need many times over. We are to go with others the second mile. Again, why? Because we know, deeply, overwhelmingly, that God has borne with us for far longer stretches. Why should we love not only our friends but also our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us? "So that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the unrighteous as well as the righteous." We must be perfect, as God is perfect.

We say Jesus' ethic is perfectionistic--a polite word for unrealistic--because it asks that we love unreservedly. But the reason we consider that unrealistic, Jesus would have answered, is because we do not allow ourselves to experience the constant, unstinted love that flows from God to us. If we did experience it, problems would still arise. To which of the innumerable needy should limited supplies of coats and cloaks be given? When we run into mean bullies, are we to lie down and let them tromp over us?

Jesus offered no rulebook to obviate hard choices. What he argued for was for the stance from which we should approach those choices. All we can say in advance as we face the demands of our extravagantly complicated world is that we should respond to our neighbors--all of them that we think might be affected by our actions--not in proportion to what we see as their due but in proportion to their need. The cost to us personally should count for nothing.


Read more at

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
link   JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell   8 years ago

Jesus instruction flies in the face of what we think we know about human nature in this way.

He asks us to help people and treat them well NOT BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT , but because they need it. 

The need is in itself the reason to do it. 

This is not what most of us are taught and perhaps why there are so few true Christians.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  JohnRussell   8 years ago

Yup. 

Most self-styled Christians would have a hard time answering the most obvious question: What was Jesus's One Commandment? 

 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
link   JohnRussell  replied to  Bob Nelson   8 years ago

If we look at a lot of these gospel passages, it is pretty clear that Jesus taught that we should be good to everyone, whether they had earned those kindnesses or not. 

That goes against what we commonly conceive of as human nature though. So there are rationalizations that take place. 

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Guide
link   Hal A. Lujah  replied to  JohnRussell   8 years ago

It is at odds with the basic premise of capitalism, imo.  The goal of financially surpassing thy neighbor requires one to not give a crap about thy neighbor, to some degree.  

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  JohnRussell   8 years ago

Jesus's parables are remarkably consistent. The players are often from despised communities, the message about "inclusive love" is in most of His sermons. 

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Guide
link   Hal A. Lujah  replied to  JohnRussell   8 years ago

"This is not what most of us are taught and perhaps why there are so few true Christians."

83%+/- of America claims to be Christian.  In terms of 'true' Christians, how far off is this statistic?

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Hal A. Lujah   8 years ago

how far off is this statistic?

Let's see... racism is incompatible with "Christian". Greed is incompatible with "Christian". 

How many are left? 

 

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Guide
link   Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Bob Nelson   8 years ago

I imagine that there are many metrics which you could gauge a 'true' Christian by.  In the end, that 83% probably would be more like 0.83%.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Hal A. Lujah   8 years ago

more like 0.83%

That's probably a bit overstated.

And on an optimistic note, let's add all the decent folk, living their lives reasonably and trying to be good people. They are Christians, by Jesus's definition. They follow His path, even if they don't recognize Him in any way. 

So while there are a lot of self-styled Christians who... aren't, really...  There are also a lot of folks who don't consider themselves Christians, whom Jesus would recognize without hesitation. 

By their deeds will they be known... 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
link   1stwarrior    8 years ago

Really a shame that Bob is back to hoggin' the FP - again.

 
 
 
Dowser
Sophomore Quiet
link   Dowser  replied to  1stwarrior   8 years ago

He's not.   Everyone is able to publish what they want when-- how is that hogging the front page?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
link   1stwarrior  replied to  Dowser   8 years ago

Publishing is one thing - pushing/tagging/bumping your thread is not allowable under the CoC.  But, you and Bob both know that.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
link   JohnRussell  replied to  1stwarrior   8 years ago

Publishing is one thing - pushing/tagging/bumping your thread is not allowable under the CoC.  But, you and Bob both know that.

I just looked at everyone of Bob's comments on this thread. There is none of what you are alleging. Virtually all of his comments are a reply to someone else's comment. The fact is that there are a number of people on this forum who try to reply to every comment their article receives. Are they bumping or pushing their articles also?

 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
link   Kavika     8 years ago

I enjoyed XX's ''end of times'' articles. Fables are really interesting to read.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    8 years ago

If you are observing, Perrie... I hope this has been a good illustration of the need for Red Rules. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
link   Perrie Halpern R.A.    8 years ago

If you are observing, Perrie... I hope this has been a good illustration of the need for Red Rules. 

I have to respectfully disagree Bob. I realize that sometimes comments can become curt, but a discussion about whether or not an article is proselytizing is acceptable.. unless you are referring to something else. Last night BF and I got into it about Muslims and it got pretty heated... but there were no RBR's and we carried on. 

As to the difference of proselytizing and discussing religion, there is a big difference. XX only posted one article that was considered to be proselytizing. By definition, proselytizing it an attempt to convert. Discussing religion is just verbal discourse about theology. It is not an attempt to convert. The reason that proselytizing is not allowed is because you are selling your faith, and promotion of any kind is not allowed on the site. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
link   JohnRussell  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A.   8 years ago

The initial comment about proselytizing was inserted out of the blue, to cause a derailment. 

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    8 years ago

You do realize, Perrie, that more than half the Comments have been off-topic. No problem, that, hmmm?

I wanted to see if the Vandals would derail a simple, straightforward article... which they did. I wanted to see if you would give your blessing to the derailing... which you did. 

It has been an interesting experiment, whose results are depressingly predictable. 

 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
link   Perrie Halpern R.A.    8 years ago

Bob,

This might be a fundamental difference in how we view discussion, but often in real life discussions, things go off on a tangent. Sometimes those tangents are just as interesting as the actual base of the discussion. I personally don't mind off topic comments on my discussions, but if I feel they become too off topic, I remind people to stay on topic. 

The discussion on what is proselytizing, I would have thought would have been interesting to you. I guess this comes down to the amount of detours we are comfortable with.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A.   8 years ago

This might be a fundamental difference...  

Yes. I took some time to write about about "love your neighbor".

I did not write about XX. If someone else wants to discuss that subject then they should start their own article rather than derail mine. 

But -- and this is important -- there are some people who derail for the sake of derailing. It's an easy way to destroy a conversation. Shift the topic, bit by bit, until it no longer ressembles the author's intent. There are some people who do this so systematically that there can be no question about their purpose. They vandalize by incremental derailing. 

I wanted to see how NT was progressing... or not. 

As expected, Bf made a limpid demonstration. 

You said there were some rules changes on the way. Let me know when they're applicable. I'll give them a try. Until then, though, this experiment has me goin' fishin' some more... 

   waving

 

 
 
 
Petey Coober
Freshman Silent
link   Petey Coober  replied to  Bob Nelson   8 years ago

there are some people who derail for the sake of derailing. It's an easy way to destroy a conversation.

OR it can be a way to make the conversation more fruitful by opening up avenues the author was not aware of . Think about it Bob ...

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
link   JohnRussell  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A.   8 years ago

The discussion on what is proselytizing, I would have thought would have been interesting to you. I guess this comes down to the amount of detours we are comfortable with.

Maybe it would be interesting to discuss "what is proselytizing?", but that is not what happened. The derailment was about someone (s) purportedly being not nice to XX. Had nothing to do with the original article at the top of this page. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
link   Perrie Halpern R.A.    8 years ago

He was unfairly attacked for his religious articles that y'all did not want here.  He and only he was attacked for that.  

That is not true. When XX puts up articles that invite discussion (i.e. his views on evolution), it was discussed. I know because I was part of the discussion. But when he put up articles about his beliefs are the only right beliefs, that is not a discussion, but him lecturing and selling his faith. There is a difference. 

Now Bob puts one up and all participated and the subject of love was questions for the actions against XX. 

Bob was asking a theological question. He wasn't trying to sell his beliefs. The XX discussion was off topic.. but I thought at least we could discuss the difference between discussions on theology vs.proselytizing. Apparently Bob didn't agree, or disagreed with the motivation behind the off topic remarks. He didn't get any special treatment, as I didn't agree with him.  

So it shows me that you can love your neighbor only if you like them.

Sadly, that seems to be the truth with most people. I can give you a whole list of people that I am sure you have no love for since you don't like them. This is a human frailty that most of us have, hence why it is so hard to follow Jesus' teachings. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
link   JohnRussell  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A.   8 years ago

The XX discussion was off topic.. but I thought at least we could discuss the difference between discussions on theology vs.proselytizing. Apparently Bob didn't agree, or disagreed with the motivation behind the off topic remarks. He didn't get any special treatment, as I didn't agree with him.  

I don't believe there was any comment that expressed an interest in discussing the nature of proselytizing. The comment that took the thread off topic included

Hey do you remember when the lefties here had kinipshins that XXjefferson was writing and seeding religious articles? Where is that animosity now? Oh wait they still complain when he seeds religious content....... 

So , the direction intended to steer the seed was not towards discussing proselytizing as such, but to recriminate against "lefties" and to drum up "animosity" toward the current article. 

 

 

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
link   Dean Moriarty    8 years ago

What does it mean to love them? 

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
Professor Participates
link   Larry Hampton    8 years ago

Always an interesting topic of conversation,,,,great article Bob and nice to see you.

One of the things I find interesting are the statements in the NT about religion. One in particular stands out because it is so central to the theme of Christianity, so straight forward, so unwavering and yet, nearly totally ignored by modern American Christianity.

James1:27

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

If Christ's Church was doing what it's supposed to, there would be no hungry or uncared for children in our country. Instead we are flooded with the uncared for. That is a disgrace, and the most sure sign I can think of that the Church in America is completely backslidden.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Larry Hampton   8 years ago

In logic, a God who is love could not fault people for not knowing He exists. So... Your verse (and several others) tell us what should be obvious: "love your fellows" does not require knowing anything about Jesus. 

Behavior is what counts. 

And there are indeed many, many "Christian" churches whose behavior is not at all... Christian. 

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
Professor Participates
link   Larry Hampton  replied to  Bob Nelson   8 years ago

Jesus saw what was lacking in his day and society, and used that present religious matrix to express his ontological viewpoint. Notice how the instruction was NOT to help folks by persuading them of a certain religious tenants or requirements, but to help them, by taking care of them. Yes, indeed, loving them. There is plenty of scriptural evidence, especially in the NT, that God judges us by the way we respect our relationships, our behavior. There is also plenty of evidence that we are as well judged for the dynamic differences between that reality, and what we publicly proclaim as our religious devotion...iow, hypocrisy.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Larry Hampton   8 years ago

I had a sad debate with a former internet friend way back when, on Newsvine. He was trying to prove that God doesn't exist, and got very upset when I was incapable of defining God. 

I don't know exactly what to believe, but I am sure that "love your neighbor" is the right path. When I try to think about the physics of "God is love and love is God" I get lost. Is there a "being" of some sort? Or is "love", a great cloud of love across the universe, the same thing? 

Does any of that matter? 

Love thy neighbor. The rest will take care of itself. 

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
Professor Participates
link   Larry Hampton  replied to  Bob Nelson   8 years ago

Defining God is a rabbit hole to fall down and get lost in for sure.

I believe that your summation is correct; that we will "find" God when our relationships with the rest of creation are healthy and whole.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Larry Hampton   8 years ago

I think so... and yet the topic is irresistible. 

OTOH, I have seen studies that indicate that "Belief" is a survival trait, and that there may be a gene-level tendency to "Believe". 

... which would by no means obviate the existence of God. 

...    My head hurts... 

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
Professor Participates
link   Larry Hampton  replied to  Bob Nelson   8 years ago

Lol, I hear ya Bob!

C'mon over this evening and we will explore further over some beast for dinner, a nice brew, and then port and cigars by the fireplace afterwards. We could solve the mysteries of the universe!

:~)

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    8 years ago

Sounds lovely.

I dunno about "solve"... but I do know about port!

 

 
 

Who is online


Kavika
Ed-NavDoc
Ronin2


54 visitors