I do love an ironic article title. Lol - sorry, I couldn't resist.

It must upset you that Catholics don't wash their hands after they poop.

Just passing along an article in the interests of public safety. In other news, the FDA has determined that 95% of communion wafers are made of ground up kittens. It's all so disheartening.

So that's wherethe priest was washes off his willie.8(

Very interesting. I can't imagine why anyone would drink it! Ewwwww..

...Or warm apple pie, maybe..

Thanks for explanation. I like Steven King, tho haven't read a lot of his work.

In defense of Hal, he is not a hater. His skepticism of religion is simplyfull on.

JR, I think you dug yourself a hole when you started talking about comparative pedophilia in the community vs. the ordained.

If the water's dirty, it shouldn't be touched.

Thank you... I think.

Unless you meant to say "Very nice, Capt. Obvious."

John, the point is that priests hold a special position with their flock. ''Moral Authority'' I think that's it's called, which they have proved time and time again that they don't have that authority. The Bishops, Cardinals etc that did their best to cover this up are in the same category as the priests that raped boys.

So your comparison doesn't hold water.

Of yes, the poor Catholic Church, they are being picked on once again.

John, ridiculing American Indian beliefs has been done in this country for centuries. All you have to do is goggle, ''Indian Boarding Schools'', yes,many were run by the Catholic Church, but than again you don't want to face that either. Oh, and the U.S. Government outlawed American Indian religions, are you aware of that John.

Should I go on John, how about the ''Doctrine of Discovery'', I know that one you hate. If I remember correctly you were worried that the Church would have to pay if they recanted that doctrine.

Frankly John, your inability to face facts is hardly unexpected.

I don't believe that I ever excused any other religion, the Boy Scouts or anyone else that abused children. That is in your mind only John.

But than again you don't feel that the term ''Redskin'' is an insult, no matter that real Indians tell you it is. That John, tells me that you ability to understand anything past the end of your nose is limited.

I just think its time for us all to admit that organized religions don't provide answers any more than smiling provide happiness.

Respectfully and sincerely, Hal, I disagree.

Sorry flame,

I accept your compliment, if it's still extended.

And yes, your reputation precedes you.

John, let's be perfectly clear on this. I did not goof on ''holy water''. No where in this article did I mention holy water or make fun of it or any part of the Church. What I do attack is the hypocricy of the church, it's priests, bishops and Cardinals that covered up the horrific abuse that went on.

Please explain the ''bigotry'' against others that I expressed. I speak for myself John. Indians are not a monolithic group, or of one mind.

As far as the term, ''Redskin'', if I'm mistaken on your impression, I apologize.

For millions to think that it is just a football team is not acceptable. When a race of people is insulted by it, than I would think that all people that are not bigots or racists would help fight to change it. To accept it and say that millions think of it as a football team is simply cowardice IMO.

"Some day it will dawn on you that human beings have been practicing religions since the dawn of man that are so different that they cancel each other out."

This is a profoundly ignorant statement. Have you ever read a book about comparative religion? Try The Religions Of Man by Huston Smith, one of the great texts of the 20th century.

Interesting my comment is grounded in strictly in historical relevance, and you come back with a comment about how ignorant it is, and then defend your accusation by recommending a book that is purposely lacking historical perspective. Equally interesting is the fact that you appear wholeheartedly devoted to, and vigorously defensive of, one of the most dogmatic, ritualistic, and contradictory religions ever invented by man, yet youve got this worldview on religion that emphasizes the importance of religious impulse over historical religious events. Impulse and rote adherence to doctrine lie at opposite ends of the spiritual spectrum.

I will look into your book suggestion, since this isnt the first time you have emphatically recommended it. In the meantime, perhaps you can fill in the historical perspective on mainstream organized religions that is missing from your book (according to the reviews), by reading The Evolution of God, by Robert Wright. Dont worry, its not an atheist rant, but it does illustrate my point over how gods are created by man, not the other way around. From the Amazon review:

In this sweeping, dazzling journey through history, Robert Wright unveils a discovery of crucial importance to the present moment: there is a pattern in the evolution Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and a "hidden code" in their scriptures. Through the prisms of archeology, theology, anthropology, and evolutionary psychology, Wright repeatedly overturns conventional wisdom to show how and why religion can strengthen the social order-even in an age of globalization-and explains why modern science is not only compatible with religion, but actively affirms the validity of the religious quest.

I'm sure you will laugh at how I have just suggesting reading that seems to contradict my atheism. However, my position is that if the value of religion is and has always been purely psychological, then it's time to admit thatthe most critical aspect oftheir foundations(ie definitive gods)isdisingenuous. You may point to that critical aspect as being the underlying guiding light that provides comfort and morality,butit also enablesconfusion ofadherents,opening them up to exploitation, andinfluencing them into makingdecisions that can haveterrible consequences. Humanity should move beyond this primitive form of societal control, and embrace an honest approach to our existence and how we should interact within our communities, from a purely secular view.

I've been in this discussion with ignorant people on the topic of child sexual abuse and priests before. This kind of thread attracts them like flies to shit.

First off, to the anti-catholic trolls, you need to read some facts instead of parroting all that anti-catholic crap you regurgitate.

1) Read " The John Jay Report" - This is the most comprehensive report done on Catholic clergy child sexual abuse. It doesn't have any pictures and uses "big words" so you might not be able to understand what it says. You may want to get a 5th grader to help you. It has facts like this;

• Catholic priest child abuse accounts for only 26% of all allegations made against religious clergy in the US and about 4% of all reported child sexual abuse crimes.
• 3.5% of priests were responsible for approximately 26% of all allegations of (all religious) sexual abuse against minors.
• Out of the 100,000 plus catholic priests in the US, only 4% of those are accused of child molestation and only 2% are ever convicted

2) Child sexual abuse happens in all racial, religious, ethnic and age groups, and at all socio-economic levels. - stopitnow

3) The greatest source of reported child sexual abuse comes from the Baptist evangelical ranks. -
csmonitor
snapnetwork
ezinearticles

4) All clergy together only accounts for 5% of child sexual abuse accusations in the US. 75% of all child sexual abuse originates from the child's family, with 20% from teachers, social workers and medical staff.

ALL people, including all clergy, need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. To those of you too stupid to realize that this goes way beyond catholic priests, you hide behind this crime just to vent your spleen against catholics and are gross hypocrites.

If you want to talk about so called "Holy Water", try the Hindu's "Sacred Ganges River" - "The Ganges was ranked among the five most polluted rivers of the world in 2010 with fecal coliform levels in the river near Varanasi more than one hundred times the official Indian government limits".

Pathetic people.

Outstanding points, all. The factual information drives home your point.

That said, the reaction to faith after these breaches of trust is understandable. We hold people in high esteem throughout society, and are especially shocked when we hear about these incidents of molestation.

I would compare it to the incidents of CFOs and controllers embezzling from their companies' tills. How about the pharmacists who dilute the doses to be more profitable, knowing very well that they're injuring their customers?

It's reallyno different. That said, these people need to be held to a higher standard, BECAUSE they are entrusted representatives of the community; they are trusted to the custody of their employers' finances; they are trusted to handle dosages properly, and they are trusted to nurture the children in their parishes with the utmost care.

Do they represent an inordinate percentage of the community? Not according to your data.

Should they be punished more severely? Because of their fiduciary responsibility, YES.

Does it represent the entire body of the AICPA, or the Pharmacists' Guild, or the Catholic Church?

Of course not.

.... seriously? First of all, this article is about people who don't wash their hands, and then put them in Catholic ritual hocus pocus water,allowing othersto enjoy the bacteria in theirshit.

Secondly, there is no justifiable defense for a clergyman of any stripe who sexually abuses a child, so comparing that person to a public school teacher, social worker, medical worker, etc. is disingenuous. However, the Catholic Church does enjoy the distinction of havinghistorically taken those sickos and enabling their continuance of such behavior via quiet relocation, as opposed to removing them and having them prosecuted like the criminals they are. I suppose you would prefer to let bygones be bygones, erase the historical record, and move on - while the Catholic Church continues to do everything in its power to see that victims cannot have access to their holdings.

These are people who call Jesus their savior. Go figure. It's a good thing for Catholics that he isn't real, or he would materialize and reduce them to dust for so grossly distorting his mission.

You said

I suppose you would prefer to let bygones be bygones, erase the historical record, and move on - while the Catholic Church continues to do everything in its power to see that victims cannot have access to their holdings.

I said

Should they be punished more severely? Because of their fiduciary responsibility, YES.

My comment was directed at AP. I take no issue with your post.

Very few "religious" people experience their church as exploitation, that is a purely political designation. That is not to say that people are not exploited, but exploitation is not the whole of religion. You don't seem to be able to understand that.

The entire argument against same sex marriage, and extending all the secular benefits included with marriage to gays, is a strictly religious one. Please don't pretend that religion doesn't have a strangle hold on American culture.

The understandable desire to hold bishops and cardinals more accountable does not account for the behavior of anti- Catholic bigots on threads such as this.

With the revelation of the energy that the Church expended to protect and relocate these people, it does exacerbate the ire directed against them.

Americans don't really care about child sexual abuse outside of the occasional time when a high profile name like Joe Paterno is involved.

Agreed, sadly.

Aggressive atheists love to attack the Catholic Church, because of it's 2000 year history and it's status as the second largest religious denomination in the world. And oh yeah, because of it's stance on abortion.

No faith is safe from the derision of atheists. Catholicism is not special in that regard.

Are they a larger target than other faiths? Perhaps.

There are more talking points against...

You know, They're always looking for Boy Scout Leaders. You know it might work out better. They get to go camping.

The Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts are always fighting to see who doesn't have to sleep in the tent with their Boy Scout Leader.

Well John..... You and I have walked on common ground once again.

Holy shit, I mean water...... Read about bottled water.

I can't believe you - somehow, a man who devotes his professionallife to propagating the preachings of a particular religion, who has obligated himself tobe a leader of morality, whohas accepted the responsibility of ultimatetrust, only to use that most unquestionable trust to rape and tortureinnocent children, and you insist thatthere is no difference between him and a person whosimply has an occupation that involves working with children?! And to boot, because I am of no religion I am not eligible to speak towardshow inherently wrong thatopinion is?There is something seriously wrong with you.

Why are people LIKE YOU always only going after the Catholics?

For the last fucking time - I don't go after Catholics any more than I go after religion in general - and you know this perfectly well. My comments generally refer to gods, rather than god - which is something you have commented on in the past. The fact that the Catholic Church dug their own grave with historically enabling and protecting pedophiles, and are now publicly fighting abuse claims and openly shifting their holdings around to avoid losing them to damages - that is their own doing, and those facts are fair game to anyone. You seem to have a lower opinion of me than you do of the criminals who molest children using the unquestionable trust that comes with clergy positions.

I posted the article because the title made me chuckle. This isn't from the Onion, or from some "aggressive atheist" site. If you are offended, then kindly take your complaints to the author.

All they need to do is add 2-3 drops of bleach into the water and it would be a lot cleaner. Not that I know doodley squat about Holy Water, but surely God would not want his followers to be sick.

IF I buy bottled water, I always check the source to make sure it is a municipal supply. Municipal supplies must conform to EPA's Drinking Water Standards, which are MUCH more stringent than FDA standards.

I don't drink much bottled water, only because it is not well-regulated and tap water is well-regulated. Spring water doesn't mean doodley squat, as to purity. Nor does water from artesian wells. Many many municipalities have artesian wells, and all that means is that the water in the formations are under pressure, and will rise in a well above the top of the confining formation. It doesn't mean doodley squat as far as purity goes.

Most of the bottled water industry is just a rip-off.

I don't drink much water period. Unless you're on a steady diet of saltines, you're getting plenty of water from the foods you are already eating. Don't believe the hype - whether it comes from the bottled water industry, or from Michele Obama. Your body tells you when it's thirsty, so slurping down an extra bottle for the health of it is bs. However, if you have a habit of drinking soda every day, I would advise weaning yourself off with bottled water.

I laughed.

Are you telling me that good Christian parents would NOT put their clergy leader in a different category of trust than the gym teacher? Just because I know better, doesn't mean that the indoctrinatedflock doesn't. They spent their lives being conditioned to see clergy as above that potential, and it is well documented that parents of abused children are sometimes even critical of their children afterthey disclose to them that the clergyman had abused them.

How do we get to the point that every time child sex abuse is brought up, people bring up Catholic priests? Or worse, how is it that every time the Catholic Church is brought up, some idiot reflexively talks about priests and altar boys?

When is it going to sink in with you that the Catholic Church's aggressive policy on protecting their own is destroying their credibility. You keep bringing up this gripe, but you refuse to address the historical record of relocating abusers, covering up the truth, and protecting their assets from damages.

Thanks for providing those reports, APax. I've never taken the time to research statistics, mostly because they usually come from biased sources, but I will say that I am 'not' anti-Catholic; I was just being facetious in any comments about priests I made earlier [as a just-in-case, I didn't think you were pointing to me, at all, with your comments - I'm just explaining my position out of principle and thanking you for taking the time to go a little further with it].

Personally, when it comes to the small percentage of priests that have raped, I never thought anyone was ever suggesting they were a large segment of the population. I thought their point was only to point out the hypocrisy in doing so. Also, there would be the irony to consider in that homosexuality/sodomy is forbidden. So, the criticism by the others would be to point to the contradiction in discipline, rather than to suggest what percentage of the population they represent.

As for the holy water in Catholic churches -- I always thought it was tap water that priests had blessed - you mean it's special water from some foreign source??

Religion is a cultural expression of the innate need for self-conscious beings to explain why they are here. Like all human creations, it is corruptible. You look at religion as a purely political organization, but that is the corruption.

The first "priests" were not exploiting the people, they were the "wise men" who could explain and teach.

Very few "religious" people experience their church as exploitation, that is a purely political designation. That is not to say that people are not exploited, but exploitation is not the whole of religion.

That was an excellent statement, imo, John. There is a huge difference between religion [has context] and Faith [that implies a God], as I think you imply 'between the lines,' in addition to the politics involved. Politics would be part of 'any' organization, religious or not, but not at every level of that org, as I see it.

Exploitation would be in the eye of the beholder, and I wouldn't think anyone that viewed their fellowship as "exploitation" - would bother to be there.

Does this qualify as exploitation? Taking money tax free, using infrastructure paid for by actual taxpayers to make that happen, then preaching politicsfrom the pulpit in open defiance of US law?

Hal, from your link:

Were hoping the IRS will respond by doing what they have threatened, he said. We have to wait for it to be applied to a particular church or pastor so that we can challenge it in court. We dont think its going to take long for a judge to strike this down as unconstitutional.

The purpose is to make sure that the pastor -- and not the IRS -- decides what is said from the pulpit, Erik Stanley, senior legal counsel for the group, told FoxNews.com. It is a head-on constitutional challenge.

Violation of this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise tax, the IRS says in its online guide for churches and religious organizations seeking tax exemption."

Ummm... I don't know about that. I read the formal, legal statement behind tax-exempt status - and it's vague in both definition and who can qualify. They state a condition, but also allow for getting around it.

Also, this article is implying Protestant religions, not Catholics. Were any Catholic Priests involved in this?

Chloe - it's the law. If they want to discuss political matters directly from the pulpit, then they can legally lose their tax exempt status. Whyshould taxpayers be paying the entire bill for the infrastructure that is requiredto get a captive audience toa tax-exempt organization for the purposes of political campaigning? They are absolutely allowed to push politics from their pulpits, just not as a tax exempt organizationdisguising itself as a religious house of worship. If they want to expandwhat they think their duties should be to include political campaigning, then they can quit leaching off those who actually contribute to the tax base.

Incidentally - despite what many might assume, I am not for churches loses their tax exempt status across the board. There are many churches that could not survive that, and I'm not advocating for shutting down houses of worship over government issues. I am, however, all for enforcing the existing laws that allow for them to remain tax exempt.

As far as Catholicism goes, I'm not concerned with which religions are pushing that boundary. Your commentthat I responded to wasn't either.

Hal,

If they want to discuss political matters directly from the pulpit, then they can legally lose their tax exempt status. Whyshould taxpayers be paying the entire bill for the infrastructure that is requiredto get a captive audience toa tax-exempt organization for the purposes of political campaigning? They are absolutely allowed to push politics from their pulpits, just not as a tax exempt organizationdisguising itself as a religious house of worship.

I understood and agreed with your original point.

And I agree, 'free speech' applies to the churches as well as the populace, and that "tax-exempt" status shouldn't include those involved in the government.

My point was only that of the verbiage [tax-exempt] being obscure, and that the law allows for exceptions to their rules. Perhaps why the churches get away with their status (just speculating) is two-fold: 1. the government is in 'their' business, too, and wants to be; 2. if we took the status away from the churches, then we quite possibly would have even more of their influence in government - which btw, concerns me more in the realm of Islam, than it does from the perspective of Christianity. Why? Because Islam works to have government favor the 'group,' but Christianity works to favor and 'protect' the individual [as does our Constitution] - which is why it 'can' be good to have that influence in our Congress...imo.

How all of this relates to Holy Water, I don't know; but it's been fun.

My question, because I don't know, what is the source of holy water? If you can get it out of the faucet, or distilled water, my husband, who was raised Catholic, tells me, the only thing 'special' about isthat it is blessed. So the addition of a little chlorine wouldn't hurt it. Nor would scrubbing out the font.

Once tap water sits for awhile, it is going to lose it's chlorine residual anyway. My husband also says that the priests bless it once a year, for a whole year's supply, but he guessed if they ran out, they could bless more.

So, to me, the issue is the public's health and well-being.

Chloe,

If this was just a bash about Holy Water and Catholics, I could care less. However, when the ignorant start in with this Catholic/Child Sexual Abuse thing, as if it is only Catholic priests, I take personal umbrage at it.

I am a child sexual abuse survivor. At the age of 12, I was sexually assaulted many times by a Baptist minister, over twice my age and become pregnant, again...at 12. That, in itself was traumatic but the church and my own godamn...and I do mean god damned, parents and church accused me of being a succubus, an evil spirit who seduced the minister. My own so-called parents disowned me.

There is no greater hell for a 12 year old to be betrayed and so very, very alone. No one to turn to. I was sent to live with an aunt in Milwaukee, hundreds of miles from where I was born and raised in Indiana. I have not seen or talked to my ex-parental units since.

For awhile, I thought It was me and I was the only one. All the shrinks and social workers my aunt sent me to didn't help. It was actually the internet which brought me into contact with other kids who suffered the same fate I did, at the hands of non-catholic clergy....thousands. Child sexual abuse is ramped within the Protestant churches but gets absolutely NO media coverage...none.

When I see ignorant people talking about child sexual abuse as if it's just a Catholic thing, yeah, I get angry. I survived by my own wits and have learned to trust only one person...Me. Back in 2008, Tony Alamo Christian Ministries was busted for running a child abuse/pedophile ring involving hundreds of children although he was only prosecuted for ten. A lot was covered up.

There are perhaps tens of thousands of kids who have suffered sexual child abuse at the hands of non-catholic clergy but their stories are muted by the media.

As I said, all these bastards need to be prosecuted and sent to jail (and tortured) but the catholics make easy targets in what is still, a WASP society.

PS - Yes, in is usually blessed tap water but in Europe there are some "springs" considered to be sacred. Unfortunately, urbanization has tainted this sources.

APax,

when the ignorant start in with this Catholic/Child Sexual Abuse thing, as if it is only Catholic priests, I take personal umbrage at it.

Understood. Thank you for telling us your story. I'm guessing that took a 'lot' to tell us, and I understand the anger and frustration that you seem to have, and probably always will.

Wow, I had no idea there was this much abuse by religious leaders! Is there no media coverage because the victims aren't being allowed to come forward because the media is being paid by the church? Or, who's behind muting the media? Wouldn't it seem a similar muting would happen with the Catholic Church? That wasn't meant to sound like I'm doubting you, if it did; I was just trying to figure out how it's happening with one, but not for the other. I can see how politicians would want to use the media to bring down Catholics [because they're often associated with the 'evil' (..sarc ) 'Right' - but they still need an actual event to pounce on, and I thought I once read that the Bishops were pretty good at [protecting/moving] their priests. Seems like it would be hard to make a case, but sometimes they do.

Thank you again for the enlightenment/tragic news - I was totally unaware.

I didn't know about the European sacred springs, either. Interesting. Thanks!

AP, I can understand. Same thing happened to me, although I was older, and had MUCH less consequences. So, perhaps I should say, I can understand a little bit of what you went through, and only wish to say, I'm really very sorry.

Yes, it happens in ALL churches, of ALL faiths. Somehow, it is well-covered up by the protestant faiths. I support your sentiments, exactly!

----

Urbanization and septic fields have contributed a great deal to the problem. The use of fertilizers, lawn chemicals, no sewage treatment, etc. As far as the tap water usage goes, if water sits exposed to air for any length of time, it will lose it's chlorine residual and become a breeding ground for unwanted bacteria, even viruses. It's an ancient practice that needs to be thought out for the public's health and safety.

With all due respect, I think the cause is fairly obvious - unclean hands being dipped in a common water bowl. All it takes is one person who didn't wash their hands thoroughly after wiping their butt, to contaminate a small water source like this.

Yes, without a doubt that is the main reason. But, when the source of water is a spring...

There is one of those supposed holy watersprings in my hometown of Toledo, OH. It's just a hand pump well head on a church owned property where young, ostracizedwomen can go to have a baby. I learned of it when a company I was working for did some unrelated charity engineering work for them. At the time, I had a friend whose mother was dying of cancer, so I collected a jug of it and gave it to him. He wet her lips with it, and as I suspected, she died anyways, without any change in her status. Guess it's not miracle fluid after all.

If the Church did not speak out against abortion, gay marriage, female priests, and other issues , over the years, it would not have attracted so much attention (for example hundreds of stories in the New York Times) over the priest abuse matters. Liberal media has a big ax to grind against Catholics.

I like your insight with this, John, and also in pointing out the "gravitas" that has accrued over centuries.

As an aside, when I think about it, Protestantism [Evangelicals and all of their spin-offs] would be associated with Liberalism much more than they would be associated with the 'Right' as so many try to link - as a 'put down' towards Faith. In other words, I see Catholicism as foundational, original principles and values, true definition of "morality" -- usually associated with Republicans and the 'individual' - whereas, the other religions would be 'protesters' of the truth, associated with wanting to establish a break-away from what's traditional 'moral' thought, allowing an 'anything goes' freedom in morality - what I associate with traditional 'leftist' or Liberal thinking. I just had an epiphany! In other words, I have a better understanding of why our Liberal media trashes Catholicism whenever it can.

I agree, Hal. Once that occurred to me as a teen, I pretended I was dipping, and then made the sign of the Cross. And then there was Communion...I stopped because I didn't like the fact that the Priest's hands were placing something in so many mouths--it grossed me out.

I stopped because I didn't like the fact that the Priest's hands were placing something in so many mouths--it grossed me out.

Well Chloe, at least you recognize it as "something", rather than the body of a dead guy. Don't worry, I personally guarantee that you won't go to hell for not helping to cannibalize the savior of mankind.

LOL... Thanks for clearing my conscience for me... (just kidding:)

You're probably right, John. But it still made sense to me that it 'had' to be passing germs if his hands, gloves or not, touched their tongues, at all. I know the priests tried not to do it, but then I wouldn't drink from a community glass of water that possibly hundreds of people drank from, either...

All I know is that I'm never eating this again.

There's a lot to be said about germs. I know that lack of immunity due to non-exposure probably wiped out those groups/communities during the times of the Explorers... but I still have my own thoughts.

Good to read that you don't have any ill-effects or needs to see a professional.

Many think it's important to build-up immunities, with some 'intentionally' exposing themselves to pathogens, assuming they are doing a good thing. Example: there are some that will 'try' to get some viral infections like Chicken Pox [is there a vaccine now, not sure] thinking it's better to have it young than when they are older. That's ludicrous! The risk of developing Shingles later is there, plus viruses are very detrimental to our DNA, as I understand it, and they can mutate.

We all do what we think is right for ourselves, and do the best we can in most things.

lol, I don't think I would either. Who knows what that 'really' is on top of that cracker! j/k!!