I was upset that Ted Bundy got fried so quickly. Despite his apparent proclivity for Evil he was an intelligent killer and studying his ass might have been more productive for society in the long run than putting him out to pasture.

There was adocumentaryTV series called "Most Evil" by forensic psychiatrist Michael Stone of Columbia University , whocategorizedthe evil mind from 1-22. Ted Bundy was one of his cases. I think you can still find the series somewhere.

en.wikipedia

Peter,

I need some clarification on your post.

That's how it SHOULD work, but that's not how it actually works. The onus is on the defender to prove unequivocally that s/he isnt guilty more often than not.

So you feel our justice system is working in reverse where you are guilty and must be proven innocent?

Beyond reasonable doubts leads to almost no convictions,

But we have jails full of people on death row.

and you simply cant have that if you're trying to adopt a police state such as the U.S. is currently attempting to do.

Again, are you saying that guilty before innocent?

Ya Paw was right!

Peter, the people who do that, are the OJ's of this world.

That was easy!

True. There is no real reason to fear the death penalty. It's rare that a person is sentenced to death, and even more rare that they actually make it all the way to the final episode. Most death sentences are held up on appeal for years and years and years and in many cases, overturned on technicalities.

However, a dose of private justice does in fact act as a deterrent. Which is what I said in the first place.

Witnesses? Kurosawa's "Roshoman".

Civilized countries have banned capital punishment. So much for the USA.

I'm not gonna lie....I'm not sure how OJ has anything to do with what I posted. He murdered somebody for cheating on him (allegedly murdered) and was acquitted. Now, assuming he did in fact murder Nicole Brown and her lover, that clearly represents a failure in the legal system. Now, I believe the Brown family won their civil suit against OJ. What if they could then pursue their own justice against OJ? Something tells me far less people would believe they could just get away with murder.

As a former solver of martial problems, I can attest to the effectiveness of displays of violence. People remember, and they dont want to risk the same for themselves afterwards.

Yes, guilty before innocent.

Jails full of people on death row is an exaggeration. Perhaps some death rows are full, but they also dont hold all that many inmates.

Since the beginning of recorded history, we have had madmen in our midst whose brains just do not function with any relationship to reality or humanity.

There is no doubt that we havepsychopathsin our midst. Furthermore, they are not fixable once in that state.

We need to remove them from this earth, if for no other reason than to keep their sick, twisted mindset from affecting others...spreading their evil, IOW.

I don't think that it can be passed on, so to speak, but it can't be fixed either.

So youadvocatefor rapist and child molesters to get the deathpenalty? Would you be OK if we had a real life sentence?

I am not sure that the deathpenaltyworks on these people as adeterrent. I think that they are so twisted, that they really can't help themselves. But it would get rid of them from society... but again... what if there is a mistake?

Child molesters? Yes, death penalty seems appropriate for them. Family justice even more so.

Tacos - is this what you're looking for?

My daughter and I got a great kick out of that series. It was sort of Fist of Cheese but it was dang entertaining Fist of Cheese.

She and her other social worker friends used to come over to the cabin and watch that show about addiction. Can't recall the name of it but another wonderful bit of depressing cheese. They had some girl who's addiction was huffing those cans of computer air. That is a flat out low rent addict.

On a personal level, I know enough about our friend Ted than I need to know.

"Two weeks after which the real perpetrator comes forward and confesses guilt." Mac

Ain't it the truth. I have seen it with my own peepers. Everybody involved ended screwed glued and tattooed. However, a fine and dandy pumpkin thumpin we all deserve every once and awhile.

A. Macarthur, I am a conservative republican. I think it's up to a woman ONLY if she wants an abortion. I don't care who you or any other man sleeps with or marries, that's YOUR business.

Now, as far as the death penalty goes: I have a sister that was murdered in 1985, she was a beautiful woman, that grief lead to my fathers death in 1989. The man that killed her was an illegal. If I could get my hands on him and it was proven that he was the one, I'd rip him to shreds. He took 2 of my family members.

A brother that I grew up with was riding with a bunch of kids when they were 15-16 years old. They decided they were going to beat up on an elderly black man; they ended up killing him. That was back in the 60's, my sorry arsed brother got away with it. It wouldn't have bothered me one bit for him to have the death penalty applied to him!

I reckon that sound harsh and cold to you and some others on here. That's the way I feel about it. I have reason to be. This also brings up another thing that happened. In 1974, I took a job cleaning up behind a house painter. He raped me and tried to strangle me. They brought up every time I sneezed in court, but couldn't say a thing about his past misdeeds. I found out that he had raped a 13 year old and a 19 year old before he moved on to adults of 25. He raped another one after me, the girls father found him and shot him. I'm glad he did, his daughter was only 10 years old. What would YOU have done with him, presented with his record?

A day at the beach? Nah...too much sand. I never cared for that game.

Exaggeration as a means of debate is pretty pointless Buzz. I'm not talking about killing women becasue they speak up. I'm talking about killing killers. Personally, if somebody killed my wife or daughter, I would absolutely not care at all about the legality of ending their lives. Hell, I'd get myself thrown in prison just to get to them. Personal justice is compelling and efficient. The example you posted is of religious persecution. Not even close to the same topic at all, and a straw man argument at best.

You're known by the company you keep:

2011 The following 18 countries are believed by Amnesty International to have carried out executions in 2011: Afghanistan (2), Bangladesh (5+), Belarus (2), China (2000+), Egypt (1+), Iran (360+), Iraq (68+), Malaysia (1+), North Korea (30+), Saudi Arabia (82+), Somalia (6), South Sudan (5), Sudan (7+), Syria (1+), UAE (1), USA (43), Vietnam (1+), Yemen (41+). ^[4]

She was cocooned by Evil Aliens and, luckily, her good pards found her and are digging her out?

I spect it is much more heinous.

Well, we all define our numbers differently so here are lots of numbers to look at. Full disclosure: It's from an anti deathpenaltygroup, but it's the best stats I could find on short notice.

deathpenaltyinfo

What would YOU have done with him, presented with his record?

I probably would have killed him but that doesn't make it either legal or ethical or moral. There are reasons that judges recuse themselves, surgeons don't perform surgery on their family members, etc. . When a society starts making and accepting acts based on emotion and vengeance, it's in trouble.

Just an example of the lack of humanity when a family is permitted to do its own killing, Tacos. A family might want to cut the cock and balls off a rapist, for example. If someone were to rape your wife or daughter, (and God, please forbid that from happening), are you going to use the needle on the perpetrator, or would you prefer to "string 'em up"?

I reckon that sound harsh and cold to you and some others on here.

I don't judge.. we are all victims of our circumstances and experience.

You talk about 2 murders and your rape. Do you think that the punishment for killing and rape should be the same?

A "real" life sentence is a better alternative in my opinion. There would be lots of room and expense money for it if the kids who got caught smoking a joint were not imprisoned.

On a personal level, I know enough about our friend Ted than I need to know.

There sounds like a story in there. Can you share...or would you rather not?

That graph demonstrates just how few people actually are executed. Just as I said. A truly miniscule amount considering how many murders happen in the 33 death penalty states each year.

I think I would take their cock and balls, feed them to the offender, then possibly flay their skin. Then, maybe, I'd allow them to die. But hey, that's just me. Perhaps somebody else would simply sing a song to them and hope for the best.

Hence why I gave full disclosure. You were correct to me. Others might see that as too many.

It seems liberals suffer from the same affliction. What are we centrists to do?

The pro-choice people do not consider the ZEF to be a person, and therefore, for them, there is no killing in the case of an abortion. There is no incoherence.

Define when life starts? If you feel that life starts at birth, or sometime close to that, then you are right. If you think that life starts at the 16th week, then we run into a problem.

LMAO!

jah

I'm not gonna lie....I'm not sure how OJ has anything to do with what I posted.

Oh.. it came from earlier on when you said:

...and a year from then, the murder rates drop significantly as people become aware of the fact that they cant hide behind lawyers and the legal system anymore.

The poor can't hide behind the legal system. Only those who can afford private lawyers can.. hence OJ.. who was guilty if ever there was a criminal, IMHO.

Now, I believe the Brown family won their civil suit against OJ. What if they could then pursue their own justice against OJ? Something tells me far less people would believe they could just get away with murder.

In cases like OJ, I would have to agree with you. Crime of passion are more incline to cool, when death is a possible outcome facing them. Your average psychopath, I doubt.

It's very hard to be objective in any discussion, when we personalize it. But when talking about such terrible crimes done to those we love, I think it's nearly impossible.

I speak from experience. Let's leave it at that.

Can always count on you Mike to come up with the perfect visual for the article. Now I have to say, that is a new one on me, and totally grotty.

Perri, to me, and in all honesty, when I got raped, that beast destroyed a part of my life than can never be gotten back or changed, so yes, I would have loved to see him get the death penalty. He raped a 13 year old, a 19 year old, then me, and then a 10 year old. If he had died after the first one, the rest of us would not have had to go through that. If I ahd done what I wanted to do and shot him, that poor 10 year old wouldn't have gone through that. Hell, had he been locked up for rape of the first one, the rest of us wouldn't have gone through it.

Like I said, it might sound cold and cruel to you and some others, but that's the way I feel about it. I lost 2 family members to a murderer. My brother is one, and I wouldn't shed one tear if he faced execution. The man that he helped kill had family members also.

I hope that is after the trial.

A psychopath only understands death, and tends to welcome it even as they try to avoid it. Why not give them the death they seek?

Well Buzz,

IMHO, no kid or adult should be spending time for smoking pot. Talking about not only wasting a life, and possible creating a criminal, but what a waste of money.

I don't know how this discussion can be coherent without at the same time taking into consideration America's "world's policeman" reputation and the proliferation of guns along with the Second Amendment. The USA is a society where killing is encouraged (all in the name of "defence" of course). The death penalty is a natural part of the whole philosophy.

Where did I hear the expression: "Happiness is a warm gun"?

A bullet is far less of a drain on society than a life sentence, which keeps on taking from society even after the offender is no longer a threat.

i do agree about the joint smoking example though. We certainly dont need to be imprisoning people for quite a few so called "crimes".

buzz, i think ill answer that question to taco.

now if it were my spouse ( dont have one at the moment but ild include her in this) or one of my daughters , ild take a page from the Apache book , tie them to a wagon wheel in the desert , cut off their eye lids , then skin them , afterwards ild smear honey all over them while the wagon wheel was over a fire ant hill. and then ild sit back have a beer and a smoke , and watch the show . but ild have to be assured 100% that this was the only individual that could have done the crime . same goes for anyone that sexually molests my grandkids.

But Buzz, you live in China now. How do you reconcile your stance with your chosen nation?

Just an observation.

I do not support the death penalty - for multiple reasons, many of which are mentioned in the article.

I will state - a life sentence should mean a life sentence (assuming that the person is not wrongfully convicted). I will also add that we should not be paying for prisoner's education beyond GED level if the person will be getting out of prison at some point. I don't think they should have access to cable. Mainly because there are many law abiding citizens out there that cannot afford college, cable, etc., etc. - why should their taxes be going to provide them for people that break laws.

Yes, I am pro-choice. However, I see no disconnect in my positions. I am pro-choice until viability because I do not see the fetus as a life prior to that. After viability, abortion should only happen in times of medical necessity. Thus, imo, abortion prior to viability is not ending a life; abortion after viability is, essentially, self-defense. The death penalty is clearly ending a life - even if that life is horrible and never deserves to be out with the general population again.

I was always a supporter of the death penalty until it became apparent that many wrongly convicted men and women are sitting in our prisons and on death row and that prosecutorial misconduct and the deliberate withholding of evidence beneficial to defendants is not uncommon.

That is my who issue with the death penalty. If you take one wrong life.. does it not flaw the whole system?

Then again, we have this, from a man who has no right to sit on the SCOTUS:

Well, there we agree, totally. That statement is insane.

I guess one of the problems of humanity is its inability to escape from the jungle. I'm not saying that such criminals should be forgiven - I'm not a Christian and I don't believe in turning the other cheek. I can fully understand the desire for vengeance, but I just would like to feel that we have reached a level of moral civility that makes us more advanced and better than animals.

We've always been better than animals...and we still kill. You CAN have it both ways.

*snort*

Thou shall kill. Some will pretend it isnt and hasnt always been the case or rail against it under the false flag of "humanity". The world keeps spinning.

Sure, I live here, but I don't get too involved in political discussions, especially ones in opposition to government policy notwithstanding my feelings about it, because I would like not to be thrown out of the country. The consequences of that would be irreversible.

This may be my present place of residence, but I am and will always remain a loyal Canadian.

This is actually the premise for the television show, "The Following". A very good show, btw.

Matt loves that show. But I found I had a turning point with it, when they had the kid kill the mouse. Watching kids being turned into murders is a tad to sick for my mind.

Man kills for food and self-preservation, as do animals - I see nothing wrong with the cycle of life. But man kills for sport, and for other reasons that are not related to environmental perpetuity. That could make then worse than animals.

I have always believed in the concept that it is better for 10 guilty men to go free than for one innocent one to be executed.

Why reward them? In cases where they crave the highlights of the press and death as a reward, I would lock them into a closet room and ignore their very existence.

Personally, I dont have a big problem with the death penalty other than the cost. It costs so much for the due process that I've heard it is more expensive than life time incarceration.

If they could use a 50cent bullet and get it done it would be one thing...

But I dont think there is anything wrong with being dead... people die... part of life. Does it suck when babies die... sure... but being dead isnt the worst thing ever. Living in constant misery or pain would be the worst thing ever IMO.

That was a scene designed to get that exact reaction. To show that even as charismatic and approachable as James Purefoy's character is, at the end of the day, he and his followers are still fucked in the head. It also served to create dramatic tension. Success on both counts.

Animals do as well Buzz. Just like humans, not all animals do, but enough do to demonstrate that this is a clear part of the cycle of life and death in the social aspect of nature, not just in humanity.

A 50 cent bullet is the solution I advocate. As far as giving them what they want, why not? In doing so, we also give ourselves what we want, and killing them has a more positive impact on more people, since we no longer need to spend money paying for their upkeep while they are incarcerated. Aside from all else, it is economically sound to just kill them quickly.

It seems that you have given this much thought.

So I must propose this question.

What if you were the person that was mistakenly put on death row?

Does this change your position?

Fair enough. You never did tell the story of how you ended up in China. It's a half way around the world from home.

Yeah... and again... I would advocate if it was a 50 cent bullet... but the death penalty is an expensive endevor these days by due process.

I wouldnt advocate throwing out due process... so... I'm kinda stuck with being against the death penalty for the cost reason.

Personally... if I had some person do something so henious as rape or murder someone I knew... I would want their life to be as long and painful as possible. Death is too good for them.

now if the death penalty is done away with , my personal opinion is should society have to pay for incarseration for actual life? we cant make the family members pay the cost since they didnt do the crimes.

im thinking along the lines of a penal colony ,an island far enough away but still in US territory that its controlable , send them there to form their own society under their own rules ( yeah i know shades of snake pliskin and escape from NY or LA) set up a barter town of sorts in the main port , so that things could be bartered and traded if need be , i would be generous and allow at the tax payers expense , a set of clothses , a flintlock musket , 1 pound of shot and 1 pound of black powder , a sturdy knife and a blanket , anything else they trade barter or make on their new island home or they can aquire things needed to trade in bartertown( such as more shot or powder or other sundries ). once there , there is no return.

Well Summer, we are pretty much of the same mind. I am only on the fence about guys like Tim McVeigh. I don't think I would have a problem killing Stalin or Hitler either.

Some say that it says, Thou shalt not murder. There is a difference. And there wasplentyof killing going on during Moses' day.

Aside from being the basic premise of several movies, it is still a really good idea. I like it. You should probably give them a pack of cigarettes and one liter of alcohol. They're gonna need it.

Where did I hear the expression: "Happiness is a warm gun"?

The Beatles.

Yes, Moses/Akhenaten had a hand in his fair share of deaths before fleeing into the desert.

Hey Pete,

You got your finger on the post button again and beat me to it. LOL!

A strange version of Devil's Island for sure.

I think there is a prison like this... maybe in south america somewhere? - found it... San Pedro in Bolivia...

They have their own mayor, a money system, rent and property ownership. They pretty much eventuallyset up their own society...

Kind of like... Florida... or um... Australia... or uh... New England...

Oh, there are always people that make me say if anyone deserve the death penalty, it's this person. But, I still can't support the death penalty.

Yeah, there there are people that are clearly horrible people and should never, ever be allowed to live freely in society. But, I still can't support the death penalty.

Susan,

To those who know how I conduct mydiscussionslike this, I don't judge. The point is to look at the subject from varying view points and share those view points with each other. Maybe nothing changes afterwards. Maybe it does. But the gig is the exploration of the topic. So even if I personal agree with a POV, that doesn't mean that my POV is better or worse than another one else's. And many times during these discussions, I get aglimpseinto a new insight on the topic. So it's a win win. So no worries with me about your POV. You lived it. Who am I to judge?

Personally... if I had some person do something so henious as rape or murder someone I knew... I would want their life to be as long and painful as possible. Death is too good for them.

Miss D,

I kind of like that. Years ofsolitaryconfinement. No outdoors. No books, just the 4 walls, food, a bed and a toilet. Yep that works for me.

I have always believed in the concept that it is better for 10 guilty men to go free than for one innocent one to be executed.

Well, that is where I do have a problem with the death penalty. It'sirreversible.

BTW Chimps commit murder, and they know it's murder. They even have been seen trying to hide the evidence from their group. They are our closet genetic relatives.

I dont agree with letting 10 guilty people go free for the sake of one innocent person at all. That's just ridiculous. It's sad that people die unnecessarily, but if it's a choice between one person or many, I choose many every time. How much more harm will those 10 released guilty people cause? It's likely to be an exponential increase from what they were caught doing...and just as likely to cause more harm than the good that one not guilty person may have done.

Oh I agree, Peter. But for me... I don't find that entertaining. Now "The Americans".. I'm digging that show and it's not for the weak of heart.

Even though Israel does not impose capital punishment, they did execute Adolph Eichmann, whose unrepentant evil went beyond reason. But who makes the decision about the level of evil that must be reached for that penalty to be imposed?

OK, I can respect that.

LOl remember the line from one of the ST movies?the men and women of boteny bay went on to tame a continent and make a society were the future space travelers up to the challenge? I would have to make one additional addendum though , before they are sent , they get to watch a film of life on the island as it truely is , and leave the choice to them , go to the island , or euthanasia . Some may not be cut out for such an existance , and may choose the latter for themselves instead . either way the choice is theirs .

LMAO Miss D!

Many Palestinian families would disagree with that statement.

My bad Merleliz.. it was meant for you. But I meant if you were innocent, would you feel the same way.

and were I actually thought to be guilty of such a crime, death would be preferable to life at that point, precisely because I was innocent.

OK, there you have me confounded. If you were innocent, wouldn't you want your life? I know I would.

I support the death penalty under the following conditions.

.aa

It is applied only to multiple murders, murders of children, murder with torture and murder while imprisoned.aaaa

It is brought to trial within 6 months of arrest.

The execution is carried out within 3 years of conviction.

It is carried on in public,

in the county or city where the murder was committed,

by firing squad,

and all TV stations required to broadcast it live.

AND the state forced to pay for a lawyer chosen by the accused, and full costs of defense, witnesses, investigation and appeals.

AND the appeals would be heard at every level before any other case, within a month of filing.

111111pau for a lawyer chosen by the accused

But who makes the decision about the level of evil that must be reached for that penalty to be imposed?

This is part of the reason why, even if I find someone absolutely evil, I still cannot support the death penalty.

I am saying that the distinction is non existent. Especially in light of your argument that civilized nations dont execute people. My point is that perception is subjective, and if those acts of violence, justified as they might be, dont bother you, then capital punishment also should be okay based on the same essential criteria.

If you refer to the bible, it says do not murder.

Merlelitz,

You have a very unique perspective on this. I have to say one that I have never considered before. My thought would be that no matter what a court found me, my family who knows me the best, wouldbelieveme and therefore would only want the best for me, and not that I would be disgracing them. I think that your view is very Asian in perspective. But none the less, no more or less valid, than anyone else's on this topic.

Any innocent person n prison is a major concern.

Jesus said forgive them if they admit their wrongs, are truly sorry they did wrong, quit doing wrong, and ask for forgiveness.

perri , devils island was a french prison , not really along the lines of a colony and there were governmental guards present . what im proposing , is simply put them on an island with no means of getting off , that can be monitored from a distance to prevent anyone going in and getting someone off or someone leaving , i could even see allowing a zone around the island for fishing purposes with light craft not capable of the distance to make it away from the island .absolutely no US LEO present on the island at all , simply a cadre manning barter town for trades that i proposed . they are left with a basic means of self defense and to provide sustainance for themselves , what ever society they create is up to them , they are responsable for their own society since they have been deemed unfitand un safe for ours , and will not be supported by our society . criteria to be sent there would most likely be the same as for what constitutes eligibility for the death sentence today , or life in prison without possability of parole , imagine the saving with just ole Chucky Manson one who will never see the outside walls of a prison again even after all this time he has spent in prison . they want higher education guess who pays for it on the island? they themselves , not us John and Joan Q public . they form their own society justice systems and ways to make it work to their liking .

I have worried about this for about 40 years, and can see so many sides-- I don't honestly know HOW I feel about it.

On one hand, why would we spend millions of dollars protecting society from the people that would do harm to society, until they finally die of old age? But then, on the other hand, wouldn't a life in prison without the possibility of parole be punishment enough? Or would it be of unusual cruelty-- living in prison without the chance of life outside? To some people, living a life in prison may not be such a bad punishment... They get 3 squares a day, medical care, etc. Not that we should stop doing that-- we can't-- but is life imprisonment a real punishment to some people?

Then, you have Charles Manson-- why are we paying to keep him alive? I know the ins and outs of his case, but WHY would we not put to death a man of such evil? Then again, he lives in fear for his life, every day-- is that punishment enough?

But then, Sharon Tate Polansky, Jay Sebring, Abby Folger, Voytek Frykowski, and Steve Parent were denied any chance of appeal from their death sentence, as were Rosemary and Leo LaBianca, Gary Hinman, Shorty Shea, and others. Their deaths were horrible, filled with pain, suffering, and fear... Should we kill Manson and his "family" that participated, in the same way? It would be just deserts, but, cruel and unusual... And, we're civilized, supposedly.

Is the death penalty a deterrent? Obviously not. Because even if sentenced, they still have about 12 more years of life on the tax payer dime, to appeal... To someone like that, 12 years may sound like forever...

Is life in prison without the possibility of parole a deterrent? It would be to me, but then, I value the freedom to get away from concrete, and be out and about among normal people... But then, I'm not out and about, looking at people as potential victims, who would get my jollies off if I killed them.

Why would we keep the Hannibal Lectors of the world alive, when they aren't really mentally ill-- their brains are wired so that they feel absolutely no remorse for the hurting and killing of others. If they have regrets, it is that they were caught. They can't be "fixed"-- why keep them alive?

Then, again, if someone did something like that to my son, they may never see the inside of a prison-- I may not kill them myself, being the coward that I am, but I sure would WANT to kill them. And make them suffer for what they did to my child. How people can forgive, I don't understand, other than hate eats one up from the inside, and they are brave to be able to refuse to keep that hate inside of themselves-- and letting the killer enjoy their hate. Because a lot of these people get off on the hate of others...

And what about the executioners-- those charged with carrying out the death sentence. How mentally awful it would be to have to do that? I know there are those who would have no problem, at all, doing it... But not every decent, educated, corrections officer may feel that way, and would somehow wonder if HE wasn't a murderer, as well-- albeit a society sanctioned one. Is it fair to ask these men to participate in an execution?

Is the death penalty meted out fairly? Or is it a more common kind of sentence for those of African American, Native American, or even Arabic extent?

And what of the method? I've read where the drugs to put people to sleep are now impossible to get... So, do we go back to gas? If so, what kind? Do these people deserve a civilized death-- should we be looking at a way to just end their heart beat, like POW, or should we let them slowly suffocate or die of cyanide, like Zyklon B? Should we defibrillate them, after sedation? Zap and that's that? Should we truly mete out justice and perform on them the same punishment that they themselves meted out? Rape, torture, strangulation?

I'm still hoping that people smarter than I will come up with a Grand Solution. Because I don't know... There are way too many issues at stake.

Confession not obtained under duress? yeah, like that's going to happen...

I think Aeon Pax posted a link to the Innocence Project somewhere around here.

innocenceproject

I also wonder if people who serve life sentences become "institutionalized" as depicted in the movie "Shawshank Redemption", and simply adjust to life there, enjoying the benefits, as you said, of free food, medical care, education, etc.

Perrie,

That might be why we tend to fry poor folks. Mostly poor black folks.

later gator

Murder is usually defined in our respective Criminal Codes, and every aspect of the definitions must be proven by the State/Crown beyond a reasonable doubt. If a client had come to me and said "I just murdered someone." I would say "You may have killed someone, but whether or not it was murder depends on many things that must be proven by the State/Crown."

Charles Manson has spent most of his young life in some kind of juvenile detention-- so jail, to him, is home... Is keeping him in prison a normal way of life to him? Does he feel that he is being punished, or does he feel that he's put one over on us, because he gets free everything? Has he ever said he was sorry? He admitted to the crimes... Convicted without a shadow of a doubt.

I just don't know...

BTW Chimps commit murder, and they know it's murder. They even have been seen trying to hide the evidence from their group. They are our closet genetic relatives.

I guess that's proof that we haven't advanced much beyond the level of chimps.

I could but it would be a long story. Too long for a post here and it would be vastly impolite to derail a thread. Not that I don't get carried away and blather more than I should.

I don't know if I am good enough articulating in The Kings English to pull off a posted article. I can tell stories and have been known to give good porch but formal writing is sort of out of my league.

Well, if you have a problem with The King's English, you can always write in American.

I might be worse in Amerkan.

One time way back in the day I was working Dallas, Tejas. The Roach coach and the comely biker chick Roach Coach Lady showed up and we were all standing in line for Zorbate. Those boys would get a BeBo, a jalapeno and cup of coffee. Hells Bells. And Peanut Shells. As it were. Way too much for me. Anyhow, at the time all the roofing crews were from south of the border. We were all in line together shooting the shyte. The fellows from Mexico were all just minding their own business and conversing in Spanish.

This very large, red faced gentleman, a loose use of the term, with an extending beer belly, the kind where there are a couple of inches pooching out between belt and T Shirt, suddenly went beserk. He started hollering, "Tawk Merkan! Talk Merkan, Gotdammit!" Apparently directed toward our Pards from the South.

It was pretty dang amusing. No one really paid attention or heed to his request. He deflated and slouched back into line crestfallen.

I spect I do about as well as that fool in the writing department. You can probably gather that from reading this.

...but do not bring the whole society down to the level of a murderer, by making us all complicit in legalized murder.

If you're talking about American society, you're too late, you're already there.

This is part of the reason I think that prison needs modified. I have no problem with making prisoners farm/raise their own food. I have no problem with making them work within the prison to keep the prison functional (guards should be there to ensure they don't get out). I have no problem with giving them basic medical care - but, those that are in for life should not be given life saving medical care (such as cancer treatment - keep them out of pain, but don't actually try treat the cancer). I have no problem with saying if you have a life sentence, we aren't providing any education. If the person will get out of prison eventually, and does not have a high school degree, they should be required to complete a GED while in prison (if only so thathopefullywhen they get out, they will be slightly more employable). I don't believe that tax payers should be paying for cable tv for them. I'm sure I can think of other ways it can be changed.

To make their isolation more repugnant, they should not be permitted to use internet as well.

Agreed.

¹⁷ If anyone kills another person, they must be executed. ¹⁸ Someone who kills an animal may make amends for it: a life for a life. (Leviticus 24:17-18)

That seems to lock it up EXCEPT, THE EXECUTIONER "KILLS ANOTHER PERSON."

Split all the hairs you like, killing is killing.

And then there's

If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer, who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death.

Numbers 35:30-31

But then there's

Matthew 7:1

Judge not, that you be not judged.

And Roans 12:19 says

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

Well, here at La Grange, a state prison, if they don't have basic cable, they don't have any TV, because all the channels are digital. Most of them are going to get out, so TV is their only way of keeping current with the world. But they don't get anything more than the basic channels.

TV is barely worth watching, anyway.

Moses/Akenaten?

Just curious, but what did Moses do? What did Akenaten do?

TV is barely worth watching, anyway.

Make them watch the worst channels 12 hours a day,.

Then they would go straight to avoid coming back.

Dowser, Yeah, that probably is happening around the country. However, I still don't really care. There are many law-abiding people that can't afford cable, even basic - which is considered a non-essential outside of prison - so, I don't see an reason to provide them cable, even basic.

My cousin's son was just sent to a juvenile facility. He had just turned 17 when he opted to, with a friend, steal a truck, pick up a couple of girls (all four kids skipped school to do this) - the preceded to drive recklessly (going 60 through a 25), run through a stop sign and hit a mini-van. In this mini-van was a woman - she was killed on impact. He constantly whines about not having anything "fun" to do while in this facility. My position is this - he's lucky he wasn't tried as an adult as he should've been. This kid has a very extensive juvenile record - just an example, a week before stealing this truck he was arrested for stealing a motorcycle (and driving it at night w/o any lights on down the interstate at a high rate of speed). Charges for the motorcycle and other drug charges were pending in juvenile court when he stole the truck and killed the woman in the accident. When he turns 21, he will be released - he will not be going to adult prison, as he was tried as a juvenile.

His attorney argued that he came from a bad household, which is true. His parents divorced when he was a baby. His dad (my cousin) was in and out of his life, and when he was in his life, he was no real dad. His dad spent time in prison for assault. His grandfather (my uncle) has had multiple DUI charges one of which he was in prison for 9 months for. The kid was never disciplined and has always been a bully to all the kids in the family that are his age (including my son). His mother isn't much better either, she's just managed to not be arrested. His attorney argued that because he had such a poor upbringing, and his age, that he was never taught that doing these things was wrong - and that he is still redeemable, thus, juvenile court is where his crimes should be tried. On one hand, I do hope that he is redeemable and comes out of this ok. On the other hand, he killed a woman while driving a stolen car after a history of very bad choices and breaking multiple laws - and nothing, nothing, can ever make that ok. His dad (my cousin) did turn his life around after leaving prison - he's worked full time since then, stopped drinking and using drugs, got married and is raising this woman's children from her first marriage (their dad has passed away). So, yes, I do think people can be redeemed and come out of prison better people - but, I have a really hard time with the idea that my cousin's son has, more or less, been allowed to get away with killing a woman.

IMO, when in prison - they shouldn't be focused on what is going on outside of prison, instead, they should be focused on paying society back for the damage they caused by breaking the law they broke.

I am not sure of the population that makes up "death row". Do we have any facts on that?

DOWSER

You well express how most people feel about this.

One point.

Life without parole can still be pardoned.

Execution does stop repeat murders.

Well that is true.

Tex,

I have to disagree with you about your American English. Part of the charm of your writing, is that it is written in your local dialect. It adds so much more flavor to the story telling. Don't be self conscious about it,embraceit!

Well, I have got to say that youpiquedmy curiosity. I think you have an article in this. Maybe you should write it?

What did this boy's community do to alleviate this parental failure?

Plenty. This kid was in multiple diversion programs, had many people outside of his parents trying to help him and teach him to make good choices. He made the active choice to not make good decisions.

Was he at fault?

Ultimately, yes. He had a choice - do I steal a truck (after having just been arrested a week before for stealing a motorcycle) or not. He chose to steal the truck. Then he compounded that decision by opting to drive 60 miles an hour through a 25 mph zone. Then he opted to compound those decisions by blowing through a stop sign.

It was a culmination of his choices that resulted in the death of a woman.

Yes, he could have and should have had a better upbringing. Yes, I'm sure that upbringing did begin to lead him down the path of making these bad decisions. All that said, when it comes down to it - when he made the choices that led to the woman's death, he was the one that made these choices, no one forced him to do it.

Ultimately, we are responsible for our own choices - regardless of how we were raised or what bad things happen to us.

Don't get me wrong - I love this kid, he's still family. He does have many good traits. I do hope he gets his life together and comes out of his ok - which is the positive about him going through the juvenile instead of adult system. I think his chances for recovery/redemptionare better in the juvenile system instead of the adult system. On the other hand, he killed a woman - and there is nothing that can bring her back, or relieve her families loss. I just don't know how he can ever repay this family for their loss - he got 4 years in a juvenile detention center, she is gone forever.

Also, as someone that is against the death penalty, I don't think, had he been tried as an adult, the death penalty would be ok either. I do think that his time - whether in a juvenile facility or an adult prison - should not be time spent with access to cable tv, internet, or other "fun" things. He's there to be punished for what he did wrong.

"Stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage."

(To Althea from Prison, by Richard Lovelace)

I dont agree with letting 10 guilty people go free for the sake of one innocent person at all. That's just ridiculous. It's sad that people die unnecessarily, but if it's a choice between one person or many, I choose many every time.

Ahh.. "The old good of the many outweighs the good of the few or of the oneargument".

That's all fine and good until it's you on death row, and your family is suffering knowing that you are going to die. I doubt you or they would feel that way then. And this is my issue with the deathpenalty. Because if it was me, I know I how I and my family would feel.

No, thank God. I think my spirit would shrivel.

And for prisoners my age, infuse their cells with rap music...

That it does. Another point to consider...

I continue to vacillate because I can't seem to find a definitive answer in my own heart and head...

Can we just look at costs? Shouldn't we also look at what's moral? What IS moral in these cases?

I don't know. I wish I did.

Maybe we should lock them up in trailers and put them outside every community to act as tornado lightening rods... aka, let God sort it out. Maybe we should be putting them somewhere that they have to survive, on their own-- grow their own food, work at something salable so they can buy clothing... I just don't know...

In cases where they are, uh, developmentally disabled, I don't think they should ever be put to death-- but locked away from society for good. I have a real moral problem with executing the developmentally disabled...

Sigh.

Sorry Bob...I missed this last night.

Thou shalt not murder.

What is "murder", Perrie? It is a legalistic construct that splits hairs in eight. "Vehicular manslaughter". I don't think your article is about lawyers' sophistry. It is about mortality. So let me propose:Thou shalt not kill a defenseless person.

It is about the morality, but there is a difference between killing and murder. Murder is personal or for pleasure and is done to an innocent person. Killing is death for a whole lot of other reasons, like war orretribution.

Now... Let's imagine that we arrest a gang member for killing another gang member who had killed... We kill the guy we arrested. How are we any different / better than he?

For the gang member, it was about power and greed. For the state, it is animpersonalact to rid itself of apestilence.

Killing corrodes the soul of the killer.

This is true.

Summer, I understand what you're saying, but I'd rather have them watching TV than sitting there plotting their escape, or plotting to do mischief.

Death Row inmates, or people on death row, should pay their debt to society, but in the mean time, keep them occupied with something so they don't get out, even among the prison population, and create even more havoc...

I've been in prisons, but not as an inmate. I did visit Alcatraz. As well I've been in a few prisons in Ontario to visit clients (No violent crime clients.)

Quite a concept. Letting criminals build their own society. It is an interesting social experiment. The question is, would they feel that their lives are better being free to set their own standards for theirsociety or worse given the amount of danger they would be living with. I wonder how many would chose that.

Dowser,

You and I are on the same page. I have the exact same issues as you do. I am utterly perplexed by this subject.. but then again, that is what makes it so interesting to discuss.

On a totally different note, Summer, love your new haircut!

Yes, prison is full of normal people.

But, you weren't sentenced to death, either. I truly believe that we should work at job training, not just license plate stamping, or leather working, REAL job training, for the general population.

For those whose crimes were so heinous as to be beyond the pale-- that's a different aspect, to me. The Charles Mansons of the world aren't going to be rehabilitated, no matter what one does. There is a part of them missing-- at the least, we should protect general society from them. At the most, ending their lives may be a mercy--

I always think of the law as having a tinge of mercy somewhere in it. You do the crime, you do the time, and at some point, you get help and counseling to rebuild a good life, as you have done.

I read a very good book about this about 25 years ago, written by the US director of prisons-- he was in charge when Al Capone was in prison... I can't remember either the title, or the author's name, but the made prison reform his mission-- and he had a lot of success. I wish I could find my copy, (it is likely packed somewhere), to re-read it. He fought against inhumane treatment of prisoners-- and keeping them safe, even behind bars.

I don't think we're doing ourselves any good by driving people insane in prison. When they get out, they're worse than when they went in.

But, the death row stuff is another matter entirely. SIGH!

A very different insight Flame.

It is possible for a man stuck in a cell to be more free than the guard who attends him. (or woman if you prefer)

The major difference being that a guard chooses to do that job and an inmate doesn't.

I've been atAlcatraz. I have to say that it didn't look much different than the mental institution that my aunt was put in, in the 60's. Now think about that for a while.

If you're talking about American society, you're too late, you're already there.

Oh Buzz, don't be so bleak. This article started out by saying that the state of Maryland is outlawing capital punishment. So I think that once again, the United States is really barely more than a union of about 20 different countries, each with their own moral code.

It looks great!!!

That is an amazing post Flame, and even more so because you were so forthright in your own transgressions. I commend you on that.

I am sure thatprisons are filled with what are deemed by society as normal people who did a bad thing.

If I may ask, why did you rape. Please feel under no obligation to explain yourself, it's just I am trying to understand, how you would do this... and why you wouldn't do this again. Rape is supposed to be an act of violence against a woman, and not a sexual act. Is this true? Was there a specific reason (at that time) that you felt that rage, that it would now not be there?

Again, no need to answer any of my questions.

Yeah, I've managed to stew over it forever, it seems... There are no clear-cut answers, are there? Perhaps we should have a new category-- life in prison without the possibility of parole, OR pardon. Unless some real information comes to light that proves, beyond a doubt, that they didn't do it...

On one hand, we have to protect society, and on the other, they, too, are human. What is the right solution for the human aspect? Somehow in all this, we must recognize that the prisoner is a human, as well-- whatever they have done, as despicable as it is, the person is still a human. We can't brand them like cattle, poke them with electric prods, deny them food and water, etc. Is death a better answer? I just wish I knew...

Great discussion!

Our society breeds killers because of our society's choices. Perhaps we should begin changing our choices since "kill you back" doesn'tappear to be stemming the tide of heinous crimes.

Maybe it does. But since murder is as old as the Bible.. one could say it's part of human nature.

In any event, "Kill you back" doesn't seem to be a determent, but more of an expediency andretribution.

Flameaway, of course he wasn't responsible for his parents breakup - no kid ever is responsible for their parents split up.

Of course people were worried about his foundation - which is why so many people (and not just through the legal or social services) were involved in his life in attempts to give him guidance. It's also the reason he ended up being tried as a juvenile and not an adult. That said, there is only so much people can do, they can try to help him, but if he doesn't accept the help, all the help in the world won't matter.

Dowser, I agree they need things to fill their time. Books can do this - and learning to read them (if they don't know how to read). Books can be obtained very inexpensively (or free if donated, which I have done many times) - and they can be reused.

There have been many times that I have been withoutTVor internet - and I have found plenty of things to keep my boys occupied. I was raised in a house that did not have TV until I was in 8th grade - again, I never lacked for things to do that weren't getting in trouble.

The same can be done for prisoners - give them things to occupy their time that aren't considered "luxury" by so many outside of prison.

Thanks everyone!! It's a fun style - I can wear it straight (like in the photo) or curly (which is my natural look). I can still pull it back in a pony tail and tuck it up inside my scrub hats. The bangs are already starting to grow out a bit though.

Moses and Akhenaten were the same person. He first was coregent to Amenhotep III and then Pharaoh in the 18th (Amarna) dynasty of Egypt (which he founded....the Amarna dynasty anyway). Amongst other things, he was the founder of monotheism with the belief in Aten (who is now known simply as "God"). Those were bloody times. He himself was slain by Seti (cant remember which one...I or II i think) (Seti later becomes a twisted remembrance in the history books, being represented as both god and Satan in the same fables regarding Moses). Anyway, there is a lot to this story, but the basics is that before Moses fled into the desert, he was a Pharaoh and was of course responsible for deaths then. When he fled into the desert, he was directly and indirectly also responsible for the deaths of many of his followers. Such was simply the way of things back then. It was a brutal, unforgiving world.

What you are describing Perrie is the inherent selfish nature of mankind. Just because you are innocent and want to live doesnt mean you deserve to if the result of you living is many more people dying in your place. But again, the whole issue of death sentences is so extremely exaggerated that it's pretty much beyond the point of ridiculous. The volume of actual executions, according to the graph you provided, is miniscule. More people die of every single other possible way of dying than from actual state executions. State executions are almost completely a non issue. Not enough people are executed to warrant this type of vehemence against it. People like to equate it to things happening in China, Saudi Arabia, etc....that's just flat out bullshit. There, people are executed in the 1000's, for nothing more than simple protest. Here, tens are executed after committing heinous crimes. Fucking deal with it. If an innocent dies occasionally, oh well. Shit happens. They were obviously so unlucky that death would have found them anyway. Fate cant be avoided.

They don't have our murder rate.

Is that a cause or an effect?

This is true Flame.

Flame,

That was a very heartfelt and brutally honest account of what happened to you. I really respect your open account. I know that I have learned a lot from reading it.

I think that mos people think they know what goes on in the mind of a rapist. Reading your account, and the roots of your dysfunction, had changed my perspective more than you can know.

I am not sure that every rapist can be fixed. But I also feel that we should attempt to do so, during theirincarceration. And I don't believe in the deathpenaltyfor rape.

I have 2 family members who were raped. I know the pain that it has brought them. I have dealt with one of the rapist. It only made metemporarilyfeel better, but he didn't feel so good either when I was done with him. I doubt he did it again. It was a long time ago, but I can still remember the rage. I understand rage. So I can see how rage can come out in strange ways.

Some of us can grow and change as a person, others not. Maybe that is what is suppose to come out of being in jail. I'm glad that it provided you with that kind of guidance.

Thank you for your candor.

I have seen studies that suggest that we are slowly but surely becoming less bloody.

That is hopeful, Bob.

Excellent post Thee.

Want to make a convicted murderer really pay for their crimes? Make them relive them for the rest of their lives.

"A Clockwork Orange" style or just time spent?

In any case, I lean towards the idea that killing one wrong person is not an acceptable ascollateraldamage.

But then again... what to do about those Tim McVeighs?Solitaryconfinement for life? Kind of a living hell? Did we give him, in his mind, what he wanted... to be glorified in death for his "cause". I am not sure.

There are more guns but significantly fewer gun owners in America.

Gun Ownership Drops Dramatically huffingtonpost...

Summer,

Such people areafraidto accept help, it makes them feel vulnerable. Criminals typically can't stand feeling vulnerable, that' why they seek the easy forms of power that come through crime.

Teach criminals courage by teaching them how to feel safe.

I assure you it's something they've never been taught.

And it's impossible to teach when they are trying to keep from being shanked by the homicidally frustrated guy that lives with them24/7.

So, the answer isn't to punish those who were born into punishment. It's to teach them the value of the society you enjoy. How can you do that when you exclude them from itdue to your own fear?

I understand this. However, there comes a time when they have to be held accountable for their choices.

I'm sorry, but in my cousin's son's case, people had been trying that for years with him - and will continue to try that with him when he is released from the juvenile facility he is in. Yes, his dad wasn't much of a dad for many years; yes, his grandfather is an alcoholic who has been in prison; yes, his mother was a poor excuse for a mother. These are the reasons he is in the juvenile system, instead of the adult system.

It's very easy to 'pass the blame' onto his parents. It at least explains why he may have started making bad choices in his life. However, he is, ultimately, responsible for his own choices.

People can do exactly what you are saying should be done (and I agree, it should be done), but some people are still going to make choices like my cousin's son made - despite having support and a safe environment. My cousin's son spent much of his time with other family members, not his mom and dad and not his grandfather. He was around people that did just as you say should happen - yet, he still chose to make the choices he made. Yes, he had a bad immediate family life - I won't deny that; and yes, even though he had love and support from everyone else, it's not the same as having a loving, supporting immediate family. But, you know, I know many other people that had worse immediate families that he had (even as bad as it was), and they still don't make the choices he made.

Essentially, when it comes down to it - each of us can chose to live by continually making bad choices and self-sabotaging ourselves; or we can chose to rise above the crap that surrounds us and make a life for ourselves. He is still a kid in many ways, which is why I hope when he comes out of this, he can move past these choices and start making good choices.

What about Baha'i? More peaceful and scientifically valid than faith-based religions.

Flameaway, I would like to add my thank you for sharing your story. As someone that survived rape, it's hard for me to listen (read) a rapists story. I was raped a child (I was 7 when it happened the first time) by my best friends father. It started out as molestation, then progressed.

I, also, do not agree with the death penalty for rapists (well, for anyone, really). Even with what I went through, I would never want the man that raped me to be put to death. He is in prison, and will be for the rest of his natural life. I do not care to give him another thought - just knowing he can't rape anymore children is good enough for me. I wouldn't want him to be put to death because I wouldn't want that on my conscious.

Regardless, thanks for sharing - and I'm glad that your anger is properly directed and you've come out of everything changed, and, it sounds, changed for the better. Best of luck to you!

Perrie,

Thank you very much. I may just haul off and write that one up though I have no idea where I'd put it.

flameaway, that is exactly what I read. Put prisoners in the pressure cooker, then, let them out, all at once-- it explodes. It's stupid to do that.

And no one is mollycoddling prisoners-- but the general population needs something to work for, rewards, and just general help to rebuild their lives. We certainly don't want them to be put in again and again and again...

I thought you people under 30 liked rap music.

Reply by Dowser 9 hours ago And for prisoners my age, infuse their cells with rap music.

Mac,

I was about to mention that.

It's like a somewhat convoluted philosophical outlook. How else are they gonna learn? Getting a State Sponsored Dirt Nap does seem to do little to thwart our propensity for murder and mayhem.

Many see execution as the easy way out. I agree with EI, I think life without parole is the greater punishment and contrary to popular belief, execution is far more expensive. Also life without parole will help eliminate the possibility of executing an innocent individual. For many, the execution of Timothy McVeigh only made him a martyr.

I, too, am between a rock and a hard place. I support totally the right of the citizen to use deadly force in self defense via any means necessary, and I oppose ANY attempts to deny people that right. I also know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that dead murderers never kill again. So whether the death penalty deters OTHERS from murdering is not relevant. In addition, I am against enslaving people, even criminals, which makes me hate the entire prison system. I am a firm believer in restitution rather than incarceration, even if, for the period of restitution, the perp is forced to labor to provide that restitution (yeah, I get the dichotomy- shaddap!)

But I do not, under any circumstances, have an easy time granting the government the right to execute human beings. That power WILL be abused. And to this day, I cannot give even myself a truly adequate answer to my dilemna.

Many struggle with this. Crime must be punished in some way. But whatever way it is done, there are problems.

Thank you Flame

Buzz,

The Baha'i are very cool!

I'm tend to lean that way Badfish. Still there are those who are so evil and we know for sure they are the ones..

Neale,

A very unique perspective.

I am a firm believer in restitution rather than incarceration, even if, for the period of restitution, the perp is forced to labor to provide that restitution (yeah, I get the dichotomy- shaddap!)

Well, for the most part, I don't believe in warehousing people. I also don't think that prison should be a country club. I do think that many people who are in prison are fixable, and we should try to fix them, since most of them will be coming out again. In the long run, it is cheaper and safer to society.

But there are those, who should never see the light of day. They are not fixable.

The only thing that I fear about the government, is that our legal system is rife with corruption. "And Justice for All", changed how I looked at what passes as courts. Then I watched as my friend was railroaded into 32 months in a Federal prison, for making a mistake... that others got away with. So I understand distrust of the system.

Many struggle with this. Crime must be punished in some way. But whatever way it is done, there are problems.

True Red. There is no perfectanswerto this. Hence why this format of discussion.

Just as some states punish posession of a joint more fiercely than many punish raping a minor.

Life at hard labor without the possibility of parole would be an appropriate penalty.

No television, radio, weight lifting, college courses etc

Hard labor, meals and the remainder of the time solitary in their cells.

I could accept those terms instead of the death penalty

Perrie, yes I do. When a murder occurs, the person is dead for all eternity. When a rape occurs, that is a living death for some. I still have problems from it, and yes, I've seen psychiatrists, counselors and all those. That man had absolutely no right to do that to any of us, instead, he took a part of my life that I will never get back. A 10 year old child should NEVER, EVER have to deal with that.

I don't think that anyone needs to be abused or killed, but I grew up in a VERY abusive household, taking beatings every day fo my miserable life with whatever she could get her hands on, being called names, and told how much I was hated. Yeah, I guess that has a lot to do with it. But it's the way I am today. The way I grew up gives me absolutely no right to harm or mistreat any person that has done nothing to me. These two people I mentioned, between them took 2 lives of people I loved, and one killed a part of my soul.

Like I said, that might sound crued, but it's the way itis with me.

Sorry to be late with this, had an excruciatingly painful weekend.

Susan,

It sounds like your childhood was a nightmare. I really don't have the proper words to express how awful I feel for you. The scares it must have left you with... I can't imagine.

Sorry to hear that your weekend was painful, too.

Tacos, I'd love to see that AND participate in it. I truely believe I could pull the trigger, bash the head or do whatever I wanted to in order to get rid of the man that murdered my sister and my dad. I could pull the handlt, push the needle or drop the gas pellets on my brother, and peel the skin off the buzzard that raped me. The woman that gave birth to me? I ignore her, she can't stand being the center of attention for people she hates.

Now, the other side of me is that I will give my last dollar to buy someone one a sandwich if they are hungry, or a pair of shoes, things like that. Every winter, we try to get blankets donated from people living in the building to give to homeless sonce some don't want to go into a shelter.

I don't personally believe that the jury system "of your peers" is an equitable one. Many juries are tainted due to their geographical and socio-economic makeup. I know that there may be no other way, and I can certainly agree with that, but it's too bad, really.

I have to agree that most prison populations, and those sitting on death row are people of colour. And that in itself (there are stats to back that up, and as usual, I don't have any links) is a terrible, terrible thing.

Anyone read To Kill A Mockingbird (Harper Lee) lately? Many of us thought that the defendant would walk free, since he did not committ the crime. His attorney in fact proved that he did not committ the crime, as did later details in this book, one of the greatest books of all time. So, many of us underestimated the geographical and social details of the jurors. They were not thirsting for justice. They were thirsting for a black man to take the rap.

I do not believe in the death penalty. We had that issue on our ballots last year and I voted against it. I was overridden, and the death penalty has now been re-instated in California. I feel very sad about this. Many innocents are killed, and one innocent person is one too many. Juries often get the verdict wrong, for one reason or another. Sometimes, evidence is suppressed. In fact, often. Other times, DNA evidence is there and ignored. Either way, or for the reasons brought out in your article, Perrie, and by some posters to your article, a guilty person can walk free, or an innocent person can be convicted, and even put to death. It's pretty scary............especially if it happens to be YOU. And it just could.We can be arrested at any time, for any reason. The results can be dicey. As in a crap shoot.

It's true that the evidence presented by Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird was more than sufficient for any unprejudiced jury to throw the case out, and no doubt if the case had been appealed an appeal court would have done so. Keep in mind, however, that it was fiction, and set in a time of high racial prejudice. It is rare, today, that you might see a lynching in such a circumstance.

Most civilized countries have rejected capital punishment. Perhaps one day the USA will get there too.

I do think that many people who are in prison are fixable, and we should try to fix them, since most of them will be coming out again.

That's very idealistic because recidivism rates are so very poor. Within three years of freedom more than 50% of convicts are back in prison. And some say that number is really low. I hate to say it but there are a lot of people that are not fixable. What do you do with them ? If you can answer that you should get a Nobel prize of some sort.

I know I am very late to this discussion, but I'll give my opinion just the same.

There are some in this life that have committed acts against other human beings so heinous that one would think the only choice would be to put them to death. However, would that make us any less bad human beings for taking the life of another. In my younger days, I never gave much thought to the death penalty. However, as I have gained life experience, I cannot agree with the death penalty. Who am I to judge another human being and decide that they don't deserve to live? I shudder when I read the news sometimes and observe man's callousness toward his fellow man. I still cannot justify putting another human being to death. There are too many variables.

That's very idealistic because recidivism rates are so very poor. Within three years of freedom more than 50% of convicts are back in prison.

Pat,

That is not me beingidealistic. Our presentprisonsystem is just warehousing people. It's goals has never been about trying to reset people or give them a skill that they can take with them. Maybe the level ofrecidivism would go down, with at least the non sex crimes.

Oh sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I forgot to check this article while I was working on the site

Yeah.. I could accept that.

Either way, or for the reasons brought out in your article, Perrie, and by some posters to your article, a guilty person can walk free, or an innocent person can be convicted, and even put to death. It's pretty scary............especially if it happens to be YOU. And it just could.We can be arrested at any time, for any reason. The results can be dicey. As in a crap shoot.

Well those are my concerns for sure. And hence why this discussion. It's easy to wantvengeance, and I won'tcondemna person who had a wrong happen to them to want that.. but is it right for us as a society?

Debra,

Never too late, LOL!

I went from not believing in the deathpenaltyto believing in it, to then watching the justice system fail over and over... so I guess we both took a journey. I get what you mean that who are we as mere people to judge whether or not a person should live or die, especially when we get it wrong so often. There are just too many variables.. and I think if a person who believed in the deathpenaltyardently, walked a mile in an innocent mans shoes, they might change their minds.

I do not like judicial death penalties. But when the evidence is incontrovertible, I have only a problem with letting the STATE do it. I'll be honest- having met a woman whose daughter was murdered by a man out on parole for murder (having been plea-bargained out of his death-penalty charges), I am not entirely thrilled with my own stance. But if that man had been hanged by the neck until dead, introduced to Ol' Sparky, or given the overdose of sedatives, her daughter would not have died at 16.

I'll be honest- having met a woman whose daughter was murdered by a man out on parole for murder (having been plea-bargained out of his death-penalty charges),

Well, that's just plain wrong, Neale. He should have gotten life in prison.

But if that man had been hanged by the neck until dead, introduced to Ol' Sparky, or given the overdose of sedatives, her daughter would not have died at 16.

Over the years, I have a lot of stuff on this topic. There really is no proof that the deathpenalty is a determent, accept in the commission of a crime, like robbery, and the person being shot is an officer.

Honey, if the guy is dead, he can't do another murder. I don't, to be honest, give a shit about deterrences. I care about no more murders by a specific criminal. I prefer the criminals to be dead at the hands of a victim he didn't realize was armed, or by an armed bystander. And I DO think that the fear of death, either from the supposed victim OR the state (even though I don't like the state doing it) IS a deterrence. Studies be damned.However, once someone murders, there is absolutely no excuse for letting him live on. Same for rapes. The ONLy exception I make is for "murders" of murderers by family ofhis victim. Then and only then do I accept temporary or permanent insanity as a defense.

I hear you say "Wait! Insanity isn't a defense?" No, it isn't. There are 3 possible outcomes if a person is actually insane and murders.

1st- he cannot be cured, and we incarcerate him for life in a mental hospital/prison, spending upwards of a million dollars on useless treatments and upkeep until he dies.

2nd- he escapes, and kills again, meaning we have broken our promise to the citizen to protect them from this insane creature.

3rd- we "cure" him of his "insanity" once cured, he will be able to sanely reflect on the horror he inflicted on his innocent victim. He will either be driven BACK into insanity, resulting in either #1 or #2, or he will be hit with the shame and sorrow of what he did, and be forced to kill himself to expiate the guilt.

But if he is executed (but I HATe that word!) he can never kill again OR be forced to kill himself. A win/win situation. I only oppose letting the state choose life or death for a citizen. I do not oppose killing off murderers. A .22lr bullet just behind the ear is instantaneous and fairly merciful. I'll buy the first brick of ammo (500 rounds). I just require there to be NO doubt as to the guilt prior to pulling the trigger.

Obviously, the father of a murdered child, who goes temporarily insane and kills the murderer, isn't likely to be overwhelmed by grief and suicide over his act. And I would not wish him to be. Because I guarantee that, IF I ever was that father, and the proof was there as to the perp, I would, in court, lie about my "Christian forgiveness) and demand clemency. Because I want that fucker on the streets where I can get to him. Because I am NOT a forgiving man.