Christians Who Libel Israel: The Iona Community
Christians Who Libel Israel: The Iona Community
by Denis MacEoin , Gladstone Institute, August 27, 2017
The Abbey of the Iona Community, on the island of Iona, Scotland. (Image source: Akela NDE/Wikimedia Commons)
Earlier this year, Sammy Stein, chairman of Glasgow Friends of Israel, complained to the group about remarks made at a meeting addressed by Iona's Leader-Elect, Dr. Michael Marten. Marten had argued [1] more than once that Israeli soldiers routinely and deliberately shoot Palestinian children, while knowing that they are children. In a reply [2] to Mr. Stein, Marten and the Reverend Peter Macdonald, the community leader, asserted that Marten's statement had been true, and tried to back up their vilification by referencing a number of media and UN reports, including anti-Israel NGOs such as B'Tselem and Electric Intifada. I was asked to respond to their diatribe; the result is the letter below. Will Macdonald and Marten, take in what it says and find a more honest way to express Christian concern, not just for the children of Gaza and the West Bank, but for Jewish children murdered in their beds and at school by Palestinian terrorists?
Dear Rev. Macdonald and Dr. Marten,
Earlier this year, you co-signed a letter to Mr Sammy Stein, Chairman of Glasgow Friends of Israel, in which you cited sources and made statements regarding the belief that "Israeli military forces routinely attack children", regularly shooting and killing them. Mr Stein has asked me to respond to your letter, which I believe to be anti-Semitic under the most widely accepted definition of the term, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance Definition, signed by and accepted by 32 countries, including the UK and the European Parliament, and therefore having force in the jurisdiction in which you live and act. I am not Jewish, but for most of a long life I have defended Israel as the only safe haven for Jews and Middle East Christians, faced on all sides by violent enemies and by the rapid recrudescence of vicious anti-Semitism across Europe as well as a centuries-old hatred of Jews across the Islamic world.
I would ask you not to make a knee-jerk dismissal of my arguments before you come to them, and I ask you to reflect on what I have to say and to pray about it. For I hope to show how far you stand as Christians from a fair, honest, and compassionate understanding of the sufferings endured by the people of Israel, whether they be Jews, Muslims or Christians. I say that because Israel is quite literally the only country in the Middle East and far beyond that provides freedom of religion and equal rights for all its citizens. As a former lecturer in Arabic and Islamic Studies, a Middle East historian, and the holder of a doctorate in Iranian Studies, I make that statement in the firm understanding that it is true.
The limited sources you cite in evidence of routine attacks on Palestinian children include several, such as B'Tselem and Electric Intifada, that are notorious as anti-Semitic and unreliable in the extreme. As an academic, I would not touch them with a bargepole. It is also vital to ask why you do not cite a single Israeli or pro-Israel source in an attempt to seek a balanced approach to the issue. When you wrote your letter, I believe you had already made up your mind and showed no interest in a more informed examination. Three of the sources you cite are dated from 2014, from the time of a war that was started by Hamas, disseminating information that was even then unreliable.
Yes, Palestinian children are often killed. The real questions are: why are they killed, who kills them, and whether the Israeli army, the Israel Defence Force (IDF), has a policy that leads to routine killings. Before going further, I assure you that no such policy exists or has ever existed. As I shall show, the exact opposite is true. I also want to ask why you do not once mention the frequent deaths of Jewish children by Palestinian terrorists. I shall return to that later, but I would like to know why your reported compassion for dead children recognises only Palestinian children, not Jewish boys and girls who have had their throats cut while asleep in bed or blown to pieces by suicide bombers seeking paradise by slaughtering Jews. Do you care about them at all? How far does Christian love extend?
In 2015, a body known as the High Level Military Group (HLMG) visited Israel six times in the wake of the 2014 war with Gaza, to which conflict several of your sources refer. The HLMG is made up of eleven former senior military personnel who issue reports on conflicts between democratic armies and terrorist organizations. These officials had held top positions in the US, British, German, Spanish, French, Indian, Australian and Colombian defence forces and were, they said, afforded a level of access to the Israeli military that was " undoubtedly in excess of what our own countries would afford in similar circumstances ." They included a former chairman of NATO's Military Committee, Klaus Naumann, and sometime commander of British forces in Afghanistan, Col. Richard Kemp. All were from NATO and other democratic countries. Unlike yourselves and the commentators you cite, these are individuals of deep experience in warfare and in the command of soldiers in combat. Like yourselves, I am not a military expert, so I have a high appreciation of their insights into the IDF. I trust that you too will show respect for their conclusions.
Their 80-page report on the Israel Defence Force and its third war with Hamas in 2014 should surprise if not shock you with information that calls into question your portrayal of Israeli soldiers. It will only have such an import however, if your minds and hearts are open to the possibility that your judgement may be grossly distorted. You may also like to read and ponder on an article by this author, asking whether Israel committed war crimes in that war – an allegation which all the evidence, confirmed by the HLMG report, disproves.
In its report , the HLMG states:
We can further be categorically clear that Israel's conduct in the 2014 Gaza Conflict met and in some respects exceeded the highest standards we set for our own nations' militaries. It is our view that Israel fought an exemplary campaign, adequately conceived with appropriately limited objectives, displaying both a very high level of operational capability as well as a total commitment to the Law of Armed Conflict. The IDF not only met its obligations under the Law of Armed Conflict, but often exceeded these on the battlefield at significant tactical cost, as well as in the humanitarian relief efforts that accompanied its operation. (p. 11)
On the other hand, they say the following about Hamas, an internationally identified terrorist group that started this war as it did two earlier conflicts:
Hamas in turn not only flagrantly disregarded the Law of Armed Conflict as a matter of course as part of its terrorist-army hybrid strategic concept, but rather it abused the very protections afforded by the law for military advantage.
Embedding its entire military machinery in civilian locations and sensitive sites, including those of the United Nations, Hamas indiscriminately targeted Israeli civilians throughout the conflict with extensive rocket fire and willfully sought to draw the IDF into battle in a prepared urban stronghold amid the Palestinian civilian population in Gaza, for which it located its operational headquarters in Gaza's main hospital.
It is important to note that Hamas's strategic concept actively seeks the death of its own civilians as an advantageous reinforcement of its strategy aimed at the erosion of Israel's legitimacy. (p. 11)
So high were Israel's standards that even the HLMG's rapporteur, Davis Lewin, was concerned that "Some of the precautions were so extensive they worried that they could become norms in international law in terms of having to fight their own battles elsewhere." It is Israeli policy to warn enemy civilians of impending attacks by dropping thousands of leaflets, making telephone calls, sending text messages, and even dropping projectiles called "knocks on the roof" to give residents advanced warnings to evacuate the premises. This practice alone makes Amnesty International's accusation of "callous indifference" to civilian deaths utterly indefensible. Giving advance warning of attacks is disadvantageous for the Israeli Air Force in two ways: it warns Hamas fighters and rocket-launching teams that they have been spotted and designated as targets, and it allows Hamas to order civilians to remain in buildings or go onto flat roofs to dissuade Israelis from firing. This policy of warning civilians of a coming attack is stated clearly in Israel's Manual on the Rules of Warfare (2006).
Hamas does the exact opposite, not just with its indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilian centers, but in its callousness regard for its own civilians, including children. There is overwhelming evidence that Hamas used human shields in various ways. Children have been used to protect fighters , who physically hold them or open fire right next to them. [3] Numbers of civilians have been ordered onto roofs , to remain in homes that may be targeted. Hamas places rocket launchers inside or directly next to civilian sites. There is much evidence that Hamas military structures, rocket launch pads, and command centers have been situated directly in or next to civilian dwellings , a church , hospitals , [4] mosques , and schools . [5] Even the UN has admitted this . If you will take the care to watch the videos I have linked to, you will see stark evidence of those crimes.
Does it not shock you to learn that Hamas fired rockets from 31 UN facilities, 41 hospitals, 50 children's playgrounds, 85 medical clinics, 248 schools, 331 mosques, and 818 other civilian sites. One report reads that "Hamas uses UN facilities, schools, children's playgrounds, water towers, mosques and countless other active civilian facilities as launching sites for rockets and attacks. In this operation [2014 war] alone, Hamas has launched above 1,600 rockets from civilian sites."
This is historically a deliberate Hamas policy, as is clear from a 2008 video of a speech by Fathi Hammad, the Hamas Interior Minister:
"The enemies of God do not know that the Palestinian people have developed their methods of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, as do all the people living in this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahidin [i.e. the jihad fighters] and the children. This is why they have formed human shields [ duruq bashariyya ] of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahidin , in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death, just as you desire life.'"
Read that again -- "they have formed human shields [ duruq bashariyya ] of the women, the children...." -- and you are outraged that Palestinian children are killed, and blame that on soldiers in an army that goes morally far beyond any other army in the world, and that puts its own troops' lives in danger in order to avoid hurting enemy civilians?
In your letter, you say nothing about Hamas or the Palestinian Authority which carry out or condone terror attacks, frequently inciting their own children to carry out stabbings or teaching them to become suicide bombers. As far back as 2014, Hamas killed 160 Palestinian children used to build terror tunnels, some of which ended under Israeli kindergartens. You say not a word about any of this.
It is a matter of record that Islamic terrorists use children from an early age as fighters and suicide bombers, in Afghanistan , Pakistan , Iraq, the West Bank , the Gaza Strip , Syria, Iran , and elsewhere. Iran used children to explode landmines during its war with Iraq, and is still calling for young boys to fight in Syria. I SIS has used around 1,500 children (as young as seven) as fighters, suicide bombers, and executioners, putting them in harm's way and causing severe mental illness for any who may survive.
These things are well known across the world. I do not doubt that you condemn this. But Hamas, whom you do not condemn, is part and parcel of the international Islamic terrorist campaign against the West. Their use of children falls into the same category as that of the Taliban, ISIS, and other murderous criminal enterprises. Yet you criticize Israel whose soldiers fight to defend their people from this evil.
Israel builds bomb shelters to protect its civilians, including children, from Hamas rocket attacks. Most Israelis have a small shelter in their homes : "In 1951, three years after the State of Israel declared its independence, the country instituted a civil defense law requiring all homes, residential buildings and offices to be equipped with shelters or 'safe rooms'." In Sderot, however, close to the Gaza border, Jewish children have a mere 15 seconds to run from playgrounds to shelter. On July 2, 2016 , in Sderot, a Hamas rocket landed directly in an early childhood development center. A 2012 study showed that almost half all pre-teen children living in Sderot suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder.
Writing in Arab News in 2014, journalist Abdulateef Al-Mulhim asked a simple question:
"Why Gaza does not have bomb shelter[s]? Hamas took control of Gaza Strip in 2005 following Israeli withdrawal. However, hostilities never ended. In one of the conflicts around 1,500 Palestinians lost their lives and the Israeli side sustained few casualties. Undoubtedly, Israel is militarily more powerful than Hamas. Had Hamas built bomb shelters, the causalities would have been reduced. It seems Hamas does not pay much attention to the number of dead Palestinians
You do not even refer to these facts or mention other places inhabited by children, and instead blame Palestinian children's deaths on Israeli soldiers. This is morally irresponsible and reprehensible, and I do not hesitate to call you out for this transparent obliquity.
I mentioned above the many deaths of Israeli children at the hands of Palestinian terrorists who deliberately set out to take innocent lives. Allow me to mention just a few, and then to ask you why, to my knowledge, you have never condemned your Palestinian friends whose schools, television and radio broadcasts, political speeches, and religious sermons encourage their fellow citizens to go out to kill Jews, telling their own children that they should regard murderers as role models and aspire to carry out similar attacks once they are old enough.
In May 1974, three armed members of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine entered Netiv Meir elementary school in Ma'alot in the Western Galilee and took over 115 people hostage. The victims were male and female student visitors from a religious high school together with escorts. Of the 115 hostages, 105 were children. The siege lasted two days, with demands made for the release of 23 terrorist prisoners. When IDF soldiers stormed the building, 25 hostages, 22 of them children, were killed, while 68 were injured. In the struggle, the terrorists killed children with grenades and automatic weapons. (For a full account of the massacre, see here .)
Between 2000 and 2005, the Second Intifada -- an outbreak of senseless violence targeting Jewish civilians -- hundreds of children were murdered in suicide and bus bombings, car shootings, and sniper fire. See Here for some of them. In March 2011 , five members of a religious Jewish family, the Fogels, were slaughtered in their beds in Itamar by Hakim Awad, an 18-year-old Palestinian. He cut the throats of the father, and the mother, then proceeded to do the same to 3-month-old Hadas, 4-year-old Elad, and 11-year-old Yoav. Three other children, who were not at home, survived but were mentally scarred for life.
Last year , a 13-year-old Israeli girl, Hallel Yaffe Ariel, was stabbed to death while sleeping in her bed after a 19-year-old Palestinian man broke into her family home. Her mattress and the floor of her room were covered in blood.
Israeli soldiers do not set out to kill Palestinian children – the moral qualities of the Israeli military have been made clear above. Palestinian terrorists, however, knowingly and with malice aforethought, shoot, blow up, and slit the throats of Israeli children. You come from a Christian community, yet you appear to show compassion only for Palestinian children. If you do have feelings for Jewish children, you never say so.
Israeli children are never taught to hate and kill Palestinians. Their schools inculcate peace-making and the Jewish ethic of tikkun olam , "repairing the world," making it a better place. No international body has ever shown otherwise. But there is a vast body of evidence showing that Palestinian teachers and leaders do the exact opposite. British and other foreign aid money paid to the Palestinian Authority goes "into Palestinian schools named after mass murderers and Islamist militants, which openly promote terrorism and encourage pupils to see child killers as role models." Last summer , "a Gaza kindergarten graduation ceremony sponsored by the Islamic Jihad, featured children dressed in military fatigues, holding toy weapons, acting out attacks on an Israeli army base, firing mortar shells, planting explosive devices, kidnapping soldiers and even delivering mosque sermons that praise martyrdom." In 2012, senior Hamas commander Zaher Jabarin told Hamas' Al-Quds TV that Hamas labors "day and night" to educate Palestinian children in Gaza to become suicide bombers. In 2013, Gaza's Hamas-run al-Aqsa TV showed children singing the virtues of suicide attacks , and wishing to blow themselves up to "liberate" Jerusalem and Palestine. [6]
You have close connections to the Palestinian people and ought to have influence on them, to preach a Christian message of love and brotherhood. Are you willing to tackle them on their destructive use of children as cannon fodder and their educational system that turns little boys and girls into Jew-hating fanatics? Will you have the humility to apologize to the Jews of Israel for your unjustified accusations, to speak with them, to meet senior officers in their military, and to learn first-hand how they work for eventual peace, however many times their efforts to bring it are thwarted by Palestinian rejection? I think you owe them that. Surely, that is what Jesus would have done.
Yours sincerely,
Dr. Denis MacEoin
[1] Cited in private letter by Mr Stein and in letter signed by Marten, shared with author.
[2] Ibid .
[5] On all of these, see here .
[6] See also here , here , and especially here , where a Hamas fighter uses a little girl to fire a sub-machine gun at Israeli troops.
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A long read, but worth it. However, unfortunately, it will fall on deaf ears.
Dear Friend Buzz: Agreed on each and every point you and the author make.
Pity.
They, like evangelical sinners forfeit their option to earn their salvation by living life with hatred in their hearts, and by the deicide of trying to kill of the religion G-d gave directly to all Jewish People for all times through Moses on Sinai by His Holy hand and Mouth.
This is what comes of replacement theology, Jewish and Israeli hating.
Much like the former Egyptian and Jordanian peoples who only self referenced as Palestinians after there was an Israel to hate and try to destroy, these two want to for their own nefarious agendas keep these people from having self determination by liberating Jordan, which is populated by their own 70 to 30%, but run as a Hessimite Kingdom.
As political commentator George Will famously observed about Palestinians, and this applies as well to these two and their followers "They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
In this life, we all get farther standing for, and working toward something than hating and trying to obliterate something and someone else out of envy for what they have and achieve.
Israel since its reconstruction and development back in the last century has tried over and over again to make peace with its neighbors. Land for peace never did or will work. This isn't about land, Its about wanting to make the world "Judenrein".
That concept didn't just start with the National Socialists at the Wandsee Conference by Martin Borhmann, Heinrich Himmler, Adolph Eichmann, and Hitler (et al.).
For as long as there have been Jewish People, and as long as they lived in Israel (there was always a continuous uninterrupted presence of Jewish People in Israel with Jerusalem as our undivided Capitol even after the Disapora) there are those who want to contravene the will of G-d by our physical and or spiritual extermination.
Yet we endure, and they fade from human history over time.
Am Yisrael Chai.
Netzach Yisrael lo Yishakir.
We are here to stay.
Those who want to kill us, our state and our heritage not so much.
Not at all.
Peace, Abundant Blessings to One and All.
Repentance and Atonement to Those Who Wish Us and All Our G-d Ill.
Enoch.
"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:" (Jeremiah 5:21)
(An appropriate description of the Iona Community)
Dear Friend Buzz: Spot on.
E.
Enoch
They, like evangelical sinners forfeit their option to earn their salvation by living life with hatred in their hearts, and by the deicide of trying to kill of the religion G-d gave directly to all Jewish People for all times through Moses on Sinai by His Holy hand and Mouth.
If this is in reference to individuals the seeded letter is responding to, let me add a note of caution.
Yes, they may well have hatred in their hearts, but they may also simply be misinformed. The pro BDS propaganda in Britain is quite pernicious, and with a few exceptions it isn't effectively challenged.
I'm not saying this is the case here, I'm merely adding a note of caution.
The pro BDS propaganda in Britain is quite pernicious, and with a few exceptions it isn't effectively challenged.
Very True.
Perrie
Misinformation.
The inexplicable alliance between parts of the political left and radical Islam
Anti-Semitism
I don't know what caused it, but I believe Israel has lost the information battle in Western Europe, at least at the general public level.
Israel's public relations has never been particularly good or effective. Israelis display an arrogance, probably due to their successul defence against multiple attempts to push them into the sea, and need to be a little more humble. I had Israeli clients in my law practice, and most (but not all) of them were quite arrogant. They need to realize that the rest of the world needs to know the actual legal and historical reasons why ALL of Israel, including Judea and Samaria and all of Jerusalem rightly belong to the Jews. But they allow the false Palestinian narrative and the Q'oranic Jew hatred to prevail.
Buzz, the land was partitioned and the partition is not observed. There should be no Israeli occupation of the land that was partitioned to the Palestinians.
Give them land of their own and then maybe peace can be enforced. I would send UN troops into a buffer zone.
You are merely following the Palestinian narrative, John, and in its extreme the Arabs never accepted UN Partition, but their call is still for "From the river to the sea". Instead of accepting Partition, the surrounding armies attempted 3 times unsucessfully to rid the area of Jews. It is legal that when fighting a defensive war, lands that are captured belong to the victors. Please read kpr's article and comments below it to learn a little history:
"Give them land of their own and then there will be peace?" You mean like when Israel forcibly removed all the Jews from Gaza?
Oh, and UN troops in a buffer zone are going to stop missiles and rockets launched by Hezbollah and Hamas?
Buzz, the land was partitioned and the partition is not observed. There should be no Israeli occupation of the land that was partitioned to the Palestinians
Actually Israel had occupied both Gaza and The West Bank. (They still occupy the West Bank.)
But of the two parts, in 2005 Israel decided , unilaterally, to with totally draw from Gaza. (And they did-- there;s not a single Jew left in the entire place!).
And when Israel finally ended the occupation of Gaza-- that's when the Palestinians started firing rockets in earnest from Gaza at Israeli cities.
And when Israel finally ended the occupation of Gaza-- that's when the Palestinians started firing rockets in earnest from Gaza at Israeli cities
In 2005 Israeli troops forced Israelis out pf their homes in Gaza-- many had lived there their whole lives. Many had hoped when Israel withdrew and left Gaza to Palestinian control, there would be peace. In fact, the gov't planned on startinmg a withdrawal from the other part they occupied-- The West Bank.
But the end of the Gaza occupation created the opposite effect-- when the Israelis left, the Gazans started firing salvos of rockets at Israel. So-- the planned pullback from parts of the West bank never happened. (Can't say I blame them).opposite happened)
Here;s what happened-- EXCELLENT PHOTO ESSAY!
Excellent photo essay on the evacuation of Gaza. Take particular note of what the Gazans then did with the multi-million dollar greenhouses donated by Bill Gates and others....
JR
the land was partitioned and the partition is not observed.
The UN plan wasn't implemented by the British, primarily as the Arabs rejected it.
There should be no Israeli occupation of the land that was partitioned to the Palestinians.
The Arabs rejected partition.
They chose to fight believing they'd win.
They didn't
There are no mulligans in world politics.
@ Another Fine Mess. lf you are getting noticications of replies to your comments, please accept my friend request on your home page so I can send you a private note.
... the land was partitioned and the partition is not observed.
In 1947, the UN proposed à partition. The plan was accepted by the Jews but refused by the Arab nations who promptly attacked. One of the attackers was the Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan, whose British-trained Arab Legion was the only competent fighting force on the Arab side. (Trans-Jordan was a Muslim state created by the British from three-quarters of the original Palestinian Mandate.) The Legion occupied Judea and Samaria and was still in place when an armistice was established in 1948. Trans-Jordan soon formally annexed the area and changed its name to "Jordan".
Jordan's "ownership" of Judea and Samaria was strictly by force of arms.
The area was seized by Israel during a later war, and has been held by Israel for half a century. Jordan abandoned its claim as part of a peace treaty with Israel.
To resume... The last internationally recognized sovereign in this area was... the Ottoma Empire.
There was never an agreed partition. The "green line" delimiting the area is nothing more "official" than the cease-fire line from 1948. It is a ridiculous zig-zag. If we have a peace treaty some day, a reasonable border will be drawn.
Dear Friend Another Fine Mess: Point taken.
Thanks for making it.
By the bye, love the Laurel and Hardy name moniker.
Excellent.
Enoch.
Enoch
By the bye, love the Laurel and Hardy name moniker.
I tip my hat to you, most don't realise Another Fine Mess is a film title, they think it's a misquote of "Another Nice Mess"
The pro BDS propaganda in Britain is quite pernicious, and with a few exceptions it isn't effectively challenged.
And it goes beyond supporting BDS:
One third of British Jews have considered quitting the UK because of anti-Semitic hate crim es
"This comes despite a drop in the number of anti-Semitic views held by the public"
The rise in hate crimes is because of an increasing change in demographics, but I'll not be explicit or a certain member of NT is going to jump on me for being........oh, never mind.
Thank you for this Buzz.
When I was in Israel I encountered a strange sight. A teacher had his kids on a field trip at Megiddo. The teacher had an M-16 with two 30's taped together and the room dad had an Uzi also with two taped mags. As a teacher I found that very interesting of course. The teacher explained that it was law that if the students were taken out of their school on a trip the children had to be accompanied by two armed adults. That law was the result of the 1974 attack.
When I returned I showed the pictures to my colleagues in the teacher's plan room aka "lounge". They were amazed!
Yes, no surprise to me. They were armed not to go hunting for Palestinians, but to protect the children from Palestinian terrorist attacks.
I, too have had experiences in Israel that have created my attitude. The first time I visited Israel it was before the defensive barrier was built to prevent terroist attacks. I was getting dressed in the morning in my room in the Jerusalem Sheraton, and there was a huge boom and the whole building shook. I ran out on the balcony and saw the smoke rising from in front of the bus station where a suicide bomber had blown up a bus loaded with innocent women and children and others. On another visit to Israel, I saw the Park Hotel in Netanya right after a Palestinian suicide bomber had blown up he reception room filled with Jewish families celebrating a Passover seder. It was a horror to see the devestation of what became known as the Passover Massacre. I interviewed the doctors at Laniado Hospital who had to deal with the inhuman result, and they told me, in tears, what it was for them to deal with the broken bodies - and some of those doctors were Muslims.
But it doesn't stop there. My children have also narrowly escaped death at the hands of Palestinian terrorists. My daughter was on the Tel Aviv beach when her classmate with whom she travelled, stepped on a buried pipe bomb planted by a Palestinian and was blown to bits. You can google the classmate's name for the story - Marni Kimelman. There but for the grace of God - it could just as easily have been my daughter. The Palestinian was found and arrested, and later released with another more than a thousand Palestinian prisoners with blood on their hands for one Jewish soldier, Gilad Shalit. But it doesn't stop there. My son was sleeping in while in his room in Jerusalem when a terrorist bomb detonated in the sidewalk cafe in front of his building. He was thrown out of bed by the tremor. Any other morning at that time he would have been drinking coffee at that sidewalk cafe, and they would have had to collect his body parts from the street. Again, there but for the grace of God....
So do not wonder why I feel the way that I do. There is a psalm that reads: "If I forget thee O Jerusalem, may my right hand wither and my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth." My right hand will NEVER wither, and my tongue will NEVER cleave to the roof of my mouth, and if what I post appears to be one-sided, so be it. From experience I am justified for my attitude, and if I am critical of those who have never been to Israel to see with their own eyes, and who feel justified in unfairly criticizing Israel, then (thank you Rhett Butler for saying) "Frankly, I don't give a damn".
With your experiences, one can easily understand and support your feelings on this matter.
I stayed in that hotel in Netanya. Love the city!
I met some wonderful Palestinians while there. One told the old man at the Old City gate off when he began shouting anti American stuff. My arabic is limited to a few words but I did hear "camel" in the shout down.
We went to his shop and ate lunch. He just wanted to raise his family in peace.
Netanya is a Mediterranean coastal city, where the boundary line with the West Bank is very close. Many French people have come to live there - and now that France is getting to be a very uncomforable place for people who want to live in peace many more are moving there. For a couple of yiears after I retired from my law practice I became the Director of Development (fundraiser) for the Canadian Friends of Laniado Hospital (the Orthodox hospital in Netanya). I raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for it - successful because of my fundraising experience and contacts due to my many years of involvement with the Variety Club. It was because of that connection that I was in Netanya and spent time at Laniado Hospital inspecting all the departments and speaking with the doctors, nurses and other administrative staff. Many of the doctors, nurses and other staff there were Muslims. During Sabbath and High Holidays the Jewish staff were not there and the Muslim staff were in total control - there was a highly respectful and friendly relationship between them.
I learned why the hotel keeps kerosene by the beach. Darned old tar balls!
I never knew anything about that.
Wave action makes the little blobs of oil from ships. They get sticky over time They are not a lot of them but enough to be aggravating.
Buzz
Pro BDS propaganda is a problem in Britain, it isn't being effectively challenged.
In our post-reality world, the long litany of terrorist attacks against Israelis is ignored. Collateral deaths -- horrible label... but pertinent -- are transformed by creative semantics into intentional killings.
Dear Friend and Brother in Spirit Bob Nelson: Well said.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
BN
In our post-reality world, the long litany of terrorist attacks against Israelis is ignored.
Indeed, compare the worlds reaction to terrorist attacks in Europe.
In our post-reality world, the long litany of terrorist attacks against Israelis is ignored.
Indeed, compare the worlds reaction to terrorist attacks in Europe.
I do not see any valid comparison. Please develop your question.
BN
I do not see any valid comparison. Please develop your question.
That's rather the point. The world reacted with shock and horror at the attacks in Europe, but when it comes to attacks in Israel, not so much. At best you'll hear calls for both sides to end the violence, as if Israel forces shooting terrorist in the act of carrying out attacks, is somehow equivalent to the attack itself.
Oh, ok...
Double standards are pretty much the rule in media coverage of the Middle East.
Parental Love, Israeli-style
Where else do they force a little child to crawl with a backpack on his back? When Hamas treats its children like this, Israeli parents tut-tut with disgust: Look at these beasts.
read more:
Child in army gear crawling soldier-style as officer encourages him during weapons display in Efrat, Independence Day 2014. AFP
Tanks 'R' Us: How should Israeli tots mark Independence Day?
New program in Israeli schools has students 'adopting' graves from War of Independence
Israeli kindergarteners now have to sing the national anthem every week
Drafting them in kindergarten
Should IDF soldiers be allowed to visit kindergartens for army talk?
Right to refuse? Why 58 young Israelis won't be joining the army
If we love our kids why do we frighten them?
read more:
Does a parent love his toddler when he sends him to crawl on Independence Day in the sand under a fence, a huge army backpack attached to his little body? Does a father love his son when he sends him to kindergarten to return with a memorial candle and Holocaust kit in hand? Does a mother love a daughter when she bakes a cake for a soldier who will come to kindergarten and tell the little one about his heroic acts in the territories? Do we love our children when we sign them up for the monstrous “Adopt-a-barricade” campaign?
Do we love them when we send them to high schools that compete with one another for the most graduates enlisting in combat units and even take pride in the number of fallen? Do we really love our children when we agree to their starting Holocaust studies practically from age zero? Do we really love them when we agree for the school to show them horrendous images from a terror attack? Do parents who remain quiet, or who may even get excited, when the brainwashing campaigns planting fear, jingoism and militarism begin here earlier and earlier really love their children and look out for them?
The day after the week of the nation, in which everything that is thrown at their minds throughout the year is squeezed into specially concentrated capsules, the suspicion awakens that Israeli parents don’t really love their children. If this weren’t the case, would it be reasonable that they send them to this educational inferno, that they would be quiet in the face of all the harm they are doing to their children?
It is standard to think that Israeli parents are among the most caring, involved, anxious and protective of parents. The politician who does not mix in “the future of our children” into every speech has yet to be born. The parent who does not get into every detail of a rhythmic movement course for their child has yet to be born.
Enrichment classes under every flowering tree, parents’ committees that are feared by schools, of which they are the directors in practice. They even reach the army, these dedicated parents, calling the squad commander in the dark of night when their child soldier can’t fall asleep, or when his shoes are too tight for his sensitive feet. And here they are, these same supportive parents, quiet and assenting, in an educational system that has no parallel in the world, save for perhaps North Korea.
Where else do they force a little child to crawl with a backpack on his back, as in the unbelievable AFP picture depicted on the front page of Wednesday's Haaretz Hebrew edition, which must have been published worldwide? When Hamas treats its children like this, these same parents tut-tut with disgust: Look at these beasts, look what they’re doing to their children. But the settlement of Efrat, where the grotesque sight took place, is of course a source of pride.
If it weren’t so sad, it’d make you cry from laughter, the sight of the army major instructing the little tyke in front of the melting parents. This picture should have been used as evidence for a complaint (which no one will file) to the National Council for the Child.
Moreover, why does a little child need to go back from second grade holding a memorial candle with operating instructions: Scan the barcode and get a Holocaust victim? In the case of the child I know, the victim was Dora Gershon, a Jewish singer who perished in 1943 in Auschwitz. “Connecting to the Holocaust” is the name of this pedagogic exercise, for 8-year-old children.
“On Thursday we will host Nahshon soldiers,” a Tel Aviv preschool teacher wrote parents. “Please send necessities, and we will gather them into one package. You can send snacks, nuts, coffee, hard soap and anything you deem appropriate. ... It’d be a shame for the children to miss it.” The preschool children are three years old. Nahshon is a battalion in the Kfir division, and its main work is in the occupied territories. Need I add anything?
Are parents who expose their children to all this really parents who love their children?
read more:
So John, you complain about Gatestone Institute being Islamophobic, and you post an article from Ha'aretz which is the most anti-Israel newspaper in the world save for Der Shtormer, a newspaper that masquerades as being Jewish when it is run by a more Palestinian supporting organization than Hamas. Years ago I started to read that piece of shit and as soon as I saw what it was I wrote a letter to them telling them that they were capable of and doing their best to destroy Israel without the help of the Arabs whose creed was to push Israel into the sea. Surely you don't quote Ha'aretz because you support their goal, do you John?
Buzz, to you, no one can criticize Israel for anything and if they ever do they are bigots or dupes. We have heard it all before.
Apparently I posted this comment too soon, so here we go again:
"....from a practical standpoint there isn't a lot of reason to post anything critical of Israel or in defense of the Palestinian cause, you would simply be drowned out."
Over and over and over again I have had to dispute John's relentless accusation that I am never critical of Israel, that I am an Islamophobe. Over and over and over again I have had to meet his criticism of me with the fact that I have by publicly posting comments on NV and now on NT wherein I criticized the Israeli government, the Israeli Judiciary, the IDF, the settlers and the Haradim (ultra-Orthodox). Must I yet again repeat the examples?
Admittedly I have posted negative articles about Palestinians, and IMO it was deserved as was whatever I have written about radical Islamist fundamentalism. But I have also posted articles that were positive about Muslims and Palestinians, but I guess you don't remember those, do you John?
Personally I have great respect for most of the articles that I posted by Gatestone Institute. At least there is such a site that is not blind to reality, or purposely attempting to whitewash what is actually happening in this world.
TO THIS I ADD FROM THE DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM, FROM THE DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM AS IT APPLIES TO CRITICISM OF ISRAEL, THAT IS USED BY THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT, THE EU, CANADA, AND OTHER CIVILIZED COUNTRIES:
What is Anti-Semitism Relative to Israel?
EXAMPLES of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel, taking into account the overall context could include:
DEMONIZE ISRAEL:
DOUBLE STANDARD FOR ISRAEL:
DELEGITIMIZE ISRAEL:
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.
Did you read that last sentence, John?
Buzz, you use the Ottawa Protocol to absolve Israel of any and all wrong doing and suggest that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic.
You have in the past accused me of anti-semitism and I have never made an anti-semitic comment in my life.
I have never called you an anti-Semite. I may have had to point out to you the Ottawa Protocol that has defined anti-Semitism, but I have never said you WERE an anti-Semite. If I am wrong, then point out to me where I have said to you or anyone that you were an anti-Semite. And to be fair, I also know that you have never approved of Islamic terrorism, supported it, or indicated that it was justified.
I am sick and tired of being accused of calling anyone an anti-Semite. That itself is an ad hominem attack on me IMO and I will deal with it accordingly whenever it happens when I become a moderator.
Video: Let Palestine be "wiped out," sings Jerusalem Day mob
David Sheen 2 June 2017
Every year, Israel’s far-right nationalist religious camp, currently headed by Jewish Home party leader Naftali Bennett, celebrates Israel’s 1967 conquest of East Jerusalem by parading through Palestinian neighborhoods.
After militarized police units clear the parade route of Palestinians, even from the Muslim Quarter, thousands of Israelis assert their territorial and religious claims to the city with a massive march, dancing and singing victory songs.
The “Jerusalem Day Flag Parade” has long been an annual excuse for Jewish dominionists – those who seek to transform Israel from a democratic ethnocracy into a theocratic ethnocracy – to treat the Palestinians of Jerusalem as they generally treat Palestinians in the rest of the occupied West Bank. That is to say, as detested temporary guests whose eventual planned expulsion is openly discussed.
This year, the flag paraders were bolder about their plans for ethnic cleansing than ever before.
Stickers saying “Kahane was right” – a reference to the late Israeli lawmaker Meir Kahane – are a regular sight at the parade, but this year they were more popular than in previous years.
In the 1980s, when few talked about it openly, Kahane evangelized for the idea of total expulsion of the Palestinians.
It has long been common for marchers to belt out racist songs, including “Zachreni Na,” with its call for ethnic cleansing: “Palestine – May their name be wiped out!”
This year, however, it seemed as if that song was the official anthem of the parade, repeated ecstatically countless times.
As usual, Palestinians who protested the provocations were quickly ejected from the area with force. This year, a small group of liberal Jews tried to block the parade route by linking arms and sitting down at the entrance to the Old City’s iconic Damascus Gate.
Israeli occupation forces removed them from the area with force as well, after first expelling the press, so that the bulk of the violence could occur off camera and go unrecorded.
Every year, Israel’s far-right nationalist religious camp, currently headed by Jewish Home party leader Naftali Bennett, celebrates Israel’s 1967 conquest of East Jerusalem by parading through Palestinian neighborhoods.
John,
Clearly is says the far right. The average Israeli does not have their kids to combat practice or sing such songs. The Israelis themselves have a big issue with the far religious right there. They feel that the government is pandering to them, which they are. This is nothing more than what you are complaining about with Buzz.
Well said Perrie!
It is a hard task to find a taxi in Jerusalem that isn't dented or has cracked windows. The damage is the result of driving through or near the enclaves of the ultra orthodox on shabbat.
Don't get in a hurry to get to your room on an upper floor on shabbat either. The elevators stop on every floor. Going two floors without a stop would offend the ultra orthodox.
In my week there I encountered two anti American people. One was an old Palestinian sitting at the gate to the Old City and an ultra right wing Israeli.
That sounds about right Ausmth. My daughter and her boyfriend came back and said that the Israeli people are full of life and love America. Where else can you find that in the M/E?
On the other hand, at the Western Wall, they had to contend with the ultra Orthodox, and that was a whole different ball of wax. Flip sides of the same coin to the Palestinians.
John, what was said in the letter that is the basis of this seed that you disagree with? It is a letter from one Christian to another regarding BDS and the issues between the 🇮🇱 Israeli Military and Hamas. What was it that the European military officials who investigated the 2014 situation said that you disagree with? The source that made the letter public had no impact on the content or the findings. Considering the freedom that Christian and Muslim Israeli citizens have in Israel 🇮🇱 it is sad to see Christians elsewhere bashing Israel. As to your post about the measures Israelis have to take from early childhood on to survive in a hostile region, it is what must be done. While Israelis are taught survival techniques they are not taught to hate like Palestinian children are. Why the issue with Israeli kindergarteners singing their national anthem? Ours sing ours daily as they should.
Obviously John feels that Jews should be sheep who willingly march to their slaughter as they did during the Holocaust. What does NEVER AGAIN mean to him? Israel, suorrounded by nations that have attacked it multiple times were defeated, and are being held off ONLY BECAUSE "NEVER AGAIN" is more meaningful to its Jewish citizens than not defending themselves with superior ability, and that superior ability must be started from the day a child is born and perfected when a child turns 18 and in most cases must serve two years in the armed forces.
Obviously the Jewish person who wrote the article I posted here doesn't agree with you about the way Israel's children should be brought up.
Gal Gadot who is Wonder Woman on the movie screen served in the Israeli Army and rightfully stands by her service and her country.
Buzz relentlessly posts articles from an islamophobic site, the Gatestone Institute. No one on Newstalkers but myself has ever complained about that, to my knowledge. Newstalkers is for the great part a pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian site so from a practical standpoint there isn't a lot of reason to post anything critical of Israel or in defense of the Palestinian cause, you would simply be drowned out.
There is racism in Israel, there are calls for anti-Palestinian and anti-Muslim violence in Israel, there are "holy warriors" in Israel.
Peace is not going to come to those lands by posting articles from biased websites on totally one sided forums.
Why does the seeded article emphasize that the offending group is "Christian" . How pertinent is that fact to the allegations in the article? What difference does that make?
Why does the seeded article emphasize that the offending group is "Christian" . How pertinent is that fact to the allegations in the article? What difference does that make?
Because throughout the British Isles, BDS is preaching to churches. Did you know that? Do you know their tactics of false information? Do you know how invasive BDS is there?
Having a church legitimize a strictly anti Israel movement adds credibility to the BDS movement.
Before you talk you should know the facts:
As you know Perrie, because I have said it to you a few times, I am against BDS. A boycott of a small nation like Israel is inherently an existential threat and that is not right.
Gatestone Institute is an islamophobic site which gets seeded from far too often on Newstalkers.
And I will continue to seed articles from Gatestone Institute because it provides a modicum of balance to the mainstream opressively majority left-wing media and overemphasized PC.
John,
You might have an issue with the Gatestone Institute being Islamophobic (I really don't follow them enough to know), but that doesn't make THIS article wrong. It really should have explained the link of this specific church to the BDS movement, which is it's only mistake that I can see.
This seed was about Christians who defame Israel. He posted a seed yesterday about Christians who like me but in a much greater way have supported Israel 🇮🇱.
"....from a practical standpoint there isn't a lot of reason to post anything critical of Israel or in defense of the Palestinian cause, you would simply be drowned out."
Over and over and over again I have had to dispute John's relentless accusation that I am never critical of Israel, that I am an Islamophobe. Over and over and over again I have had to meet his criticism of me with the fact that I have by publicly posting comments on NV and now on NT wherein I criticized the Israeli government, the Israeli Judiciary, the IDF, the settlers and the Haradim (ultra-Orthodox). Must I yet again repeat the examples?
Admittedly I have posted negative articles about Palestinians, and IMO it was deserved as was whatever I have written about radical Islamist fundamentalism. But I have also posted articles that were positive about Muslims and Palestinians, but I guess you don't remember those, do you John?
Personally I have great respect for most of the articles that I posted by Gatestone Institute. At least there is such a site that is not blind to reality, or purposely attempting to whitewash what is actually happening in this world.
"Newstalkers is for the great part a pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian site so from a practical standpoint there isn't a lot of reason to post anything critical of Israel or in defense of the Palestinian cause, you would simply be drowned out."
Well, John, most of the members of Newstalkers are educated, intelligent and informed, so you might be one of the few who feel that the Palestinians deserve greater support. Among Americans generally, Gallup Poll does a poll every February that has for many years established that a much higher percentage of Americans favour Israel than favour the Palestinians.
Gee John, as you are the only one that has complained (to your knowledge), might it be that you are wrong in your thoughts and beliefs?
John,
Newstalkers is for the great part a pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian site...
I cannot speak for the site... only for myself. I am not pro- or anti- anyone. I have often expressed my sympathy for the Palestinian people, born behind the barbed wire of refugee camps where they have been held prisoner for seventy years... not by Israel but by their "Arab brothers".
The UN partition plan of 1947 was accepted by the Jews, but refused by the Arabs, who immediately began a war against the Jews.
Israel welcomed the roughly 700 000 Jewish refugees from the Arab world and assimilated them within a few years. The Arab states put the roughly 700 000 Muslim refugees from the war zone in "refugee camps", and made no effort to assimilate them.
It should be noted that most Israelis at the time were Ashkenazim, from eastern Europe, quite different, culturally, from the Sephardim, from North Africa, who constituted the bulk of the refugees. The refugees population was, roughly, equal to the existing Jewish population of Israel at the time.
The Muslim refugees were culturally indistinguishable from the people of the countries that imprisoned them behind barbed wire. The total Arab population at the time was something like 100 million.
So... It is true that the Palestinians have been treated very shabbily. But not by Israel. The Palestinians have been mistreated by their own "Arab brothers".
I read the article.
My only response is: WWJD?
Not what will organized religion do, of any faith.
I simply have to ask: WWJD?
I don't pretend to know what He would do, but I'm pretty sure He would NOT do any of the things that are being done now, on any side.
WWJD?
I wonder, and I pray. That's really all I can do.
That is all any of us can do.
08/27/17 10:29:09PM @perrie-halpern:
That is all any of us can do.
Read the First five chapters of Revelation [ Apocalypse ] Then let me know what you have discovered!
Why don't you tell us what you discovred and then maybe we wont have to read the five chapters.
08/27/17 10:37:40PM @johnrussell:
Why don't you tell us what you discovred and then maybe we wont have to read the five chapters.
E.A Comment removed for skirting the CoC. jwc2blue
I agree with John on that. Who has time to sift through a lot of reading to try to discover what you have in mind.
08/27/17 10:47:53PM @eagle-averro:
08/27/17 10:37:40PM @johnrussell:
08/27/17 10:53:01PM @buzz-of-the-orient:
I agree with John on that. Who has time to sift through a lot of reading to try to discover what you have in mind.
E.A Do I have a choice as to whom/when/where/why I respond to?
I was responding to John's comment, not to you, as can be seen by the indents, and you can respond to anyone you want.
08/27/17 10:53:01PM @buzz-of-the-orient:
I agree with John on that. Who has time to sift through a lot of reading to try to discover what you have in mind.
E.A I am Hardly the One to be " Grammar " Police, But what is in Bold above, indicates Different.
I posted this article. I was making a statement for the benefit of all readers, not just to you. I've been teaching English for years and can intrepret what I've said without your particular opinion about it. I don't need some kind of challenge requiring reading through the bible to be posted here as I consider that requirement to be OFF TOPIC. If you have something to say or to point out from Revelation that isn't a derail, do it.
E.A. has the nerve to red flag that comment? Then I'm red-flagging his off-topic challenge about Revelations and his breast-fed insult to John.
lol I have indeed, Isn't wonderful how Democracy Works :-)
Well, it does indicate how a person misuses the flag button. We have to sift through a literal 100+ of those each day, of which typically one or two really warranted using the function.
I don't understand the aversion to reading Revelation on their part EA. It takes less than an hour.
For those who are afraid of reading anything in the Bible I'll boil it down for you. In a nutshell it comes down to this. The forces of the entire world come against Christ's army and lose. That includes the US. In the end it seems the US turns against Israel too. When I first read chapter 16 I was 15 and simply couldn't believe that America would turn against Israel. Now after Obama and the growing anti Israel sentiment among the left I can easily see that happening.
I appreciate your summary, but the article is about the IONA community, not about the USA, although you are quite right that Obama went against the intent of every President before him to fire a salvo at Israel and stab it in the back.
I don't understand the aversion to reading Revelation on their part EA. It takes less than an hour.
For those who are afraid of reading anything in the Bible I'll boil it down for you. In a nutshell it comes down to this. The forces of the entire world come against Christ's army and lose. That includes the US. In the end it seems the US turns against Israel too. When I first read chapter 16 I was 15 and simply couldn't believe that America would turn against Israel. Now after Obama and the growing anti Israel sentiment among the left I can easily see that happening.
No one has to read anything on your say so. I don't care if it would take 5 minutes or if Jesus himself wrote it.
The religious right adherence to an apocalyptic biblical end times scenario for Israel is one of the reasons the US hasnt been able to be more effective peace brokers over there.
The religious right adherence to an apocalyptic biblical end times scenario for Israel is one of the reasons the US hasnt been able to be more effective peace brokers over there.
Nope-- has nothing to do with it. (And besides,other cpountry's-- without a religious right-- have tried and failed)>
The reason there's no peace is that its not a Palestinian goal. Their goal is to destroy Israel-- that's more important than peace.
I don't care if it would take 5 minutes or if Jesus himself wrote it.
Not surprised at all! I would be shocked if you did.
The religious right adherence to an apocalyptic biblical end times scenario for Israel is one of the reasons the US hasnt been able to be more effective peace brokers over there.
I've heard that some wacko sects are virulently pro-Israel because (in their zin-zin dogma) there must be a Jewish state to welcome Christ's Second Coming... but I don't see how peace could be anything but a bonus.
Do you have any specifics?
Do you have any specifics?
Other than they are wrong, no.
Man can't change geography to change what God has already decided. The only way for mankind to change God's mind is repentance. That has been shown time and time again in the Bible.
It's interesting that Revelations somehow knew the United States and Israel would be in existence back in AD 96. Amazing even. Especially since I don't recall either being mentioned in there.
Well Jesus who inspired John to write that book of prophecy certainly knew the future up to the timing of the 2nd coming which He said only God the Father knows.
"Well Jesus who inspired John to write that book of prophecy certainly knew the future up to the timing of the 2nd coming which He said only God the Father knows"
So, what about after David Koresh died then? All mystery?
They are mentioned by the animal symbol the countries adopted. The US is found in the winged lion. We are the eagle wings that come out of England's lion.
That's a stretch.
Not as much as you would think. Animal symbols are widely used in the Bible and other ancient ME writings.
Hate to break up anyone's fantasies, but scholars of the ancient world know what Revelations means and it has nothing to do with the end of the world in the 21st century.
Think what you want John. If you won't bother to spend five minutes reading chapter 16 why would anyone think you would want to investigate the connections between Revelation and end time prophecy.
08/27/17 10:54:44PM @eagle-averro:
08/27/17 10:47:53PM @eagle-averro:
08/27/17 10:37:40PM @johnrussell:
08/27/17 10:53:01PM @buzz-of-the-orient:
E.A Shall I wait or mark it as a " Lost Call "?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
"That is all any of us can do."
That is NOT correct, Perrie. We can oppose BDS in many ways to delegitimize its message.
Buzz,
I am in total agreement about opposing BDS. That was me being a little more introspective.
08/27/17 10:59:35PM @buzz-of-the-orient:
I have no idea what you're talking about.
E.A If you trace the indent, or the "time date " stamp, you see that I was asking Perrie
Thank you for your concern!
08/27/17 10:29:09PM @perrie-halpern:
EA,
Our indent system is a little different than NV's, so it takes a while to get used to. I don't think that Buzz was directing his comments to you or meant any insult.
08/27/17 11:20:04PM @ausmth:
Nor do I, I responded to TWO posters that queried, when Jesus Christ will respond, what I posted was to show that HE already has ?:-))
So how could a response, be " off topic " Unless!!!
The violence in Israel and Biblical prophecy are inseparable. If neither existed the place would be just another archeological site.
The rising anti Israel movement is a part of prophecy. That movement is even in the US. Down the road it will become US foreign policy. Before that can happen Christians who actually have the boldness to believe the Bible must be diminished and silenced. That is underway now.
Sorry Buzz but it isn't off topic. One can't discuss some off the beaten path Scottish group's anti Israel stance without discussing the big issue of the world's rising hatred of Israel and prophecy associated with it.
But he tried to smack me down anyway.
No Problem on My Part I use chat as Chat Not a " Fiefdom " :-)
08/27/17 11:17:58PM @perrie-halpern:
Our indent system is a little different than NV's, so it takes a while to get used to. I don't think that Buzz was directing his comments to you or meant any insult.
E.A Have you notice that I pre iinitial My Comments and use the timedate stamp?
I did mention to you that some one changed the Search Criteria on that right?
You criticize my use of English, yet you can't use correct grammar to write a sentence?
"lol I have indeed; isn't it wonderful how Democracy works?
ENOUGH! ANY FURTHER COMMENTS ON THIS WILL BE REMOVED.
This was an excellent article. I feel all the points made within were spot on, and I'm curious if the letter was well received or if it fell upon deaf ears, so to speak.
One thing it doesn't directly address though is Israel's severe PR problem, in no small part due to the arrogance of a lot of it's representatives, perceived or actual.
By my mind there is a middle ground with Palestinians and Israelis, but that obviously can't happen with Hamas hanging out there still...and especially while Hamas isn't even considered a terrorist organisation by many countries in NATO and the UN.
By my mind there is a middle ground with Palestinians and Israelis,
I agree!
When I was there I noticed the agriculture. It's what old farm boys do. The land held by the Palestinians is some of the richest land in the world. The west bank is the source of much of the winter produce for Europe. The Gaza is a miniature Kansas.
What land are they fighting over? Rocks. Jerusalem is almost a mile higher elevation than Jericho. The two towns are less than ten miles apart. The "Valley of the Shadow of Death" lies between the two cities. Only a rock collector would be happy there.
Make the boundaries for Israel defensible. Let the Palestinians have the west bank below a certain elevation. Gaza could become one of the better Med resorts when tourists didn't feel unsafe. Both sides could prosper!
Well, I read the whole article early on and read the few comments. Came back later and started reading again. At one point I felt like my car had run off the road and I was driving in the ditch for awhile with the some of the crazy comments written while I was gone.
I sure am no expert on any of this, but it reminds me of some of the same crap quite a few of us here in the USA have to put up with in some ways, such as there is a growing group of people who want you to feel guilty at every turn in the road, you're guilty even if someone runs you off the road.
They think all you have to do is give them everything they want and they will like you. And if you don't, then you're a piss of crap and guilty of being racists or other names such as Alt Right or Nazis. They seem to be trying to say Israel is a racist society against Palestine and are also Nazis. This seems to be the fad of the time. You can put the truth right in their eyes and it doesn't make any difference at all.
If you use sources that have information that promotes your belief or proves your believe, though it may be biased, you're called out for it and then the people who call you out go on about their merry way of using sources that promotes their beliefs and sometimes proves them to be true, but don't expect them to be called out on it because they are supported by the MSM who are constantly being deceitful in their reporting.
But it doesn't really matter though. They can't be called out on it because they are the media. They have the biggest podium and they drown out everyone who challenges them. Besides, it is accepted by many they are correct and everyone who is in descent are racist or worst. No one wants to be a out of favor with the illusion the majority believe in today's society, so it just grows as it is growing in Israel and around the world.
The media and those who push these accusations aren't reporting the whole picture, they're reporting the story they want you to believe. If I were Israel, I'd tell them to kiss my ass. I'm protecting my people and you can go to hell.
Here some fine tweets for you...
David Sheen
-
Interesting comments. Not sure I follow all the nuances, but I can see that some people here seem to be getting quite tense with others.
Maybe it's time for some to just take a chill pill.
However, there was a challenge to read the first 5 chapters of The Bible Book Of Revelation (Not Revelations. There is no "s"). Then someone said read up to Chapter 16.
I'm glad I'm not involved in any of that, but I would like to add my two cents worth of opinion just because. Just because I can, really.
I've said it before in another article, so I feel comfortable saying this again.
Personally, the only reading I do from The Bible is from MML&J.
As far as I am concerned, everything before The New Testament is The Jewish Bible, and most of it is not meant to be taken literally, though some do. Some people, who call themselves Christians, dig into The Old Testament like someone studying a Chinese Menu. They pick and choose what they need to justify their actions, and disregard the rest.
I choose the Books of MML&J because they chronicle the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Almost everything after that, much of it written by Paul in his letters, is a reinterpretation of Jesus' teaching to make them more palatable for the mission of selling Christianity to the masses.
And, as far as I am concerned The Book Of Revelation is total BULLSHIT and not worth reading at all, much less the first 5 or 16 chapters. You may wonder: Why is The Book Of Revelation BULLSHIT? Simply because Jesus already described how the world would end, and he added that no one would ever know when it was going to happen, not even the angels or Himself. Basically, Jesus said The Book Of Revelation was crap long before it was written by the crazy monk John of Patmos.
So...
That's really all I wanted to say. And it really does not need a response or a reply. It's just something I felt needed to be said in the context of this discussion. Take it or leave it as you wish. But know this: I will not debate these issues.
BTW, about BDS... Anyone can be against it, challenge it, oppose it, denounce it, or do whatever, but honestly... nothing we can do as individuals will ever affect it. So, as individuals, I say again, all we can really do is pray.
BDS can be deligitimized and discredited, defunded, and as is happening in many places, laws can be passed banning them.
Prayer doesn't always work. I've been praying for a big lottery win for 20 years to no avail.
One way to oppose BDS is to buy Israel 🇮🇱. I own an I -shares Israeli stock market ETF, as well as shares of their pharmaceutical giant Teva. I also own and use a Soda Stream.
Jesus is the one who inspired John a disciple of His to write Revelation. Notice in the title of the book who exactly it is a revelation of. The Old Testament Book of Daniel covers some of the same time frame post Jesus 1st advent as well as the time from the restoration of Jerusalem by Cyrus to the Messiah.
Can't help but notice that there's been no mention in all of this of how the government of Israel has broken every agreement it has with the US, it's most faithful supporter, on settlement and occupation issues. This is one of those situations in which there certainly is more than enough blame to go around.
What agreements have the Palestinians kept? Israel forcibly removed settlers from the Gaza and got rockets fired at them in thanks.
Land for peace won't work. Why? The Palestinians want all of the land.
Israel forcibly removed settlers from the Gaza and got rockets fired at them in thanks.
Well, that's pure BS as usual. Only a tiny fraction of the many illegal settlements have been removed and that's not what Palestinian radicals have launched rockets about.
What agreements have the Palestinians kept?
If you're referring to the Palestinian government, you'll need to back up your accusation with some facts, as repugnant as that may be to you. I don't deny that there are radical elements in Palestinian territories but Israel has its own radical, and violent elements. They don't have to launch rockets into Palestinian areas. That's the job of the IDF. Here's some of their "handiwork":
The idea of ethnic cleansing is rather popular in Israel right now:
The Israeli government's laxity on the subject of protecting Muslim Israeli citizens is well-documented and US appeals to that government have been shrugged off:
Arab, Muslims have lived in what's now Israel for over a thousand years. Now they are being treated as second (or lower) class people. I'm all for Jews having a homeland but the the Israeli government has become, at best, indifferent to harrassment of its non-Jewish citizens* and at worst appearing to encourage it.
*Israeli Christians are feeling the same threats from Jewish radicals there:
Comment removed for skirting the CoC [ph]
Deaf, dumb and blind support for any ally is a bad idea.
Nice Personal attack!
Now, you claim that Israel isn't keeping commitments to the US but can't name even one the Palestinians have kept.