Stop playing 'Hallelujah Chorus' atheists tell school
A gaggle of disgruntled atheists are doing a whole lot of hollering about the Hallelujah Chorus in Oak Ridge, Tennessee.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation’s local chapter is angry after a teacher at Linden Elementary School played a portion of the “Hallelujah Chorus” during morning announcements.
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“While this music may be beautiful and even inspirational for Christians, it is not acceptable for broadcasting to the entire student body at Linden Elementary,” Aleta Ledendecker wrote in a letter to the school district that was obtained by the Oak Ridger.
For the record, there have not been any reports of children spontaneously converting to the Christian faith as a result of George Frideric Handel’s beautiful song.
The aggrieved atheist group said they were acting on behalf of two parents who had children enrolled in the school.
“In consideration of all the possible choices of music, this piece with its distinctly religious content can be interpreted as proselytizing,” Ledendecker wrote.
For the record, there have not been any reports of children spontaneously converting to the Christian faith as a result of George Frideric Handel’s beautiful song.
“This is the litmus test I use: if I were a Christian parent walking in the school, and I heard over the PA system during morning announcements music with the words ‘Praise Allah. Allah is king on high. Bow down to Allah,’ how would I feel as a Christian parent with that being broadcast to all the children in the schools,” Ledendecker told the Oak Ridger.
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The school district told “The Todd Starnes Show” that a teacher had a good reason for playing a 20 second excerpt from Handel’s Messiah.
“The passage was selected to correspond with the school’s overall music curriculum that, for that particular week, featured the musical works of George Handel,” the school spokesperson told me.
Long story, short – Handel is not going anywhere.
“The school system strongly disagreed with her position and, through our school board’s attorney, we responded promptly to the writer suggesting that she was in error,” the spokesperson told me.
“The criticisms articulated by Ms. Ledendecker appear to have been based upon insufficient information taken entirely out of context, incorrect assumptions about the school’s music curriculum and a fundamental misunderstanding of the First Amendment’s relationship with historically sacred classical music compositions being taught in a public school music curriculum,” the spokesperson added.
Yeah, that’s probably going to jingle the atheists’ bells.
It’s about time a school district stood up to those godless bullies and politely told them to blow it out their piccolo.
As George Handel would say, “Hallelujah!” http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/09/13/stop-playing-hallelujah-chorus-atheists-tell-school.html
The Freedom From Religion Foundation’s local chapter is angry after a teacher at Linden Elementary School played a portion of the “Hallelujah Chorus” during morning announcements.
Click here for a free subscription to Todd’s newsletter: a must-read for Conservatives!
“While this music may be beautiful and even inspirational for Christians, it is not acceptable for broadcasting to the entire student body at Linden Elementary,” Aleta Ledendecker wrote in a letter to the school district that was obtained by the Oak Ridger.
For the record, there have not been any reports of children spontaneously converting to the Christian faith as a result of George Frideric Handel’s beautiful song.
The aggrieved atheist group said they were acting on behalf of two parents who had children enrolled in the school.
“In consideration of all the possible choices of music, this piece with its distinctly religious content can be interpreted as proselytizing,” Ledendecker wrote.
For the record, there have not been any reports of children spontaneously converting to the Christian faith as a result of George Frideric Handel’s beautiful song.
“This is the litmus test I use: if I were a Christian parent walking in the school, and I heard over the PA system during morning announcements music with the words ‘Praise Allah. Allah is king on high. Bow down to Allah,’ how would I feel as a Christian parent with that being broadcast to all the children in the schools,” Ledendecker told the Oak Ridger.
PODCAST: Click here for a free subscription to Todd’s daily radio podcast
The school district told “The Todd Starnes Show” that a teacher had a good reason for playing a 20 second excerpt from Handel’s Messiah.
“The passage was selected to correspond with the school’s overall music curriculum that, for that particular week, featured the musical works of George Handel,” the school spokesperson told me.
Long story, short – Handel is not going anywhere.
“The school system strongly disagreed with her position and, through our school board’s attorney, we responded promptly to the writer suggesting that she was in error,” the spokesperson told me.
“The criticisms articulated by Ms. Ledendecker appear to have been based upon insufficient information taken entirely out of context, incorrect assumptions about the school’s music curriculum and a fundamental misunderstanding of the First Amendment’s relationship with historically sacred classical music compositions being taught in a public school music curriculum,” the spokesperson added.
Yeah, that’s probably going to jingle the atheists’ bells.
It’s about time a school district stood up to those godless bullies and politely told them to blow it out their piccolo.
As George Handel would say, “Hallelujah!” http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/09/13/stop-playing-hallelujah-chorus-atheists-tell-school.html
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"“The passage was selected to correspond with the school’s overall music curriculum that, for that particular week, featured the musical works of George Handel,” the school spokesperson told me.
Long story, short – Handel is not going anywhere.
“The school system strongly disagreed with her position and, through our school board’s attorney, we responded promptly to the writer suggesting that she was in error,” the spokesperson told me."
I hope to God they don't study any Renaissance masters...
You mean those dead white guys??
I'm just noticing this bit of nonsense:
"Yeah, that’s probably going to jingle the atheists’ bells.
It’s about time a school district stood up to those godless bullies and politely told them to blow it out their piccolo."
Some 'christians' are so rattled by non-belief. If your belief is so strong, why are you so scared of atheists? Otherwise it's just nonsense IMHO.
So you would have no problem if someone played Barbara Streisand singing Avinu Makeinu or Yusuf Islam singing any nasheed song?
“This is the litmus test I use: if I were a Christian parent walking in the school, and I heard over the PA system during morning announcements music with the words ‘Praise Allah. Allah is king on high. Bow down to Allah,’ how would I feel as a Christian parent with that being broadcast to all the children in the schools,” Ledendecker told the Oak Ridger.
The FFRF is not in error, the school is. If this goes to court, they will lose. Out of all of Handel's work, I am sure that the teacher could have found a non-religious piece to broadcast to the whole school. What is there about church/state separation that seems to be impossible for some people to understand?
They can use religious text and music under art, literature, and history. There is no reason why they couldn't use that selection.
Same question to you....would have a problem if they someone played Barbara Streisand singing Avinu Makeinu or Yusuf Islam singing any nasheed song?
I love the George Frideric Handel version but this is by far my favorite :
I love ❤️ this version. https://www.google.com/amp/wtop.com/social-media/2016/12/10-year-old-girl-singing-rendition-hallelujah-will-give-chills/amp/
And this is MY favourite. This is what they should play in the schools, as only Leonard Cohen can do it. By the way, people with the name "Cohen" are descended from priests.
Thumbs way up. Such a wonderful tune. There are many wonderful covers of this as well.
Travel well Mr Cohen. See you on the flip side. Maybe. There might not be a flip side.
And absolutely no Wagner or Beethoven's ninth symphony.
Now classical music isn't PC?
George Frideric Handel, is that not classical music ?
How is classical music not PC ?
Handel praises God.
Wagner nationalism
Beethoven's ninth includes "Ode to Joy". The lyrics praise God.
All three are not PC today because of their themes.
It's no about PC, it's about blasting overtly religious music at a captive audience. If the music was praising Allah, would you be content to have your child propagandized into Islam?
It's happening.
No it's not Buzz.
Don't be so sure about that:
Nonsense.
Why aren't you on a thread with KPR denouncing the Islam faith? In any religion or faith, it's the extremists who are the problem. Not every Muslim. Not every Christian.
I don't denounce Islam, I don't denounce Muslims. I denounce Fundamentalist Islamist Jihadis, and I denounce the creeping Caliphate and the enablers for it. There are Muslims who I consider heroes, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Salmann Rushdie, Dr. Jasser, etc. I have taught many Muslim students and have met their parents and ones that have restaurants here, and they are among the nicest and gentlest people I have ever known, so I'd appreciate if you didn't accuse me of being an Islamophobe.
And I'll add to that, as much as I denounce extremist Muslims, I denounce Ultra-Orthodox Jews like the Haradim in Israel, and extremist Christians like the Westboro Baptists. So my prejudices are not aimed only at one faith. My wife is a Buddhist and I have never seen extremism among Buddhists.
That sure seems to be the case - anti-Islam/Muslim. Like I said, it's the extremists in any faith system or religion. So you don't need to reiterate the obvious.
"Why aren't you on a thread with KPR denouncing the Islam faith? In any religion or faith, it's the extremists who are the problem. Not every Muslim. Not every Christian."
He was answering your comment. Not sure what in your psyche requires you to berate others and attack them at every turn. Might want to see someone about that.
Was I talking to you? You might want to see someone about that.
That's the tough thing about an open forum, other people can comment. If you have an issue with that, you might want to choose the chat function.
I guess Buzz can handle himself so why did you feel the need to chime in?
I guess Buzz can handle himself so why did you feel the need to chime in? and offer your psychological advice?
Because he can. It's an open forum where any member may respond. This isn't newsvine where you can block members from participating or ignore anyone unless you create your own private group.
Come on, Buzz. That site was so biased as to be laughable. As an example, the complaint about a teacher telling students the "truth" about Islam refers to moderate Muslims as "so-called moderate Muslims", indicating that they are not moderate. It's religious bigotry, and inflammatory, and has no place in schools. CAIR was right to object. What if one were to say "so-called polite Canadians" or "so-called intelligent lawyers", making clear that this was not sarcasm? Would it be ok to vilify YOU in a public school classroom? Would you have no objection? Or is it just being anti-PC?
"Bias" depends on the life experiences, knowledge, and wishes of the beholder. Perhaps there is bias in some or many of the articles quoted there. On the other hand, maybe there are also factual references that due to excessively applied PC are not published by the mainstream media.
From Leonard Cohen's poem/song "Anthem": "There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
So, it's ok to bash Muslims as long as it's not PC, but it's not ok to uphold the establishment clause of the Constitution.
Being non-PC is much more important than the Constitution, in your view. So long as the victims are Muslims, of course.
Ok.
I have no idea what the "establishment clause" of the US Constitution is and I don't give a shit. I am getting tired of being accused of "bashing" Muslims and will not continue to repeat proof that I only bash extremists for those who don't have the abililty to retain in their brains what they've been told over and over again.
Ah, but what i WILL bash are the enablers who are helping to spread the world-wide caliphate desired by the extremist fundamentalist Jihadis.
I never said you bash Muslims. But the link you posted most certainly does.
Religious songs have no place in public schools. Attempting to ensure that in the case of Christianity is no different from attempting to ensure that Islam is not promoted in public schools. Note the differences between the reactions to Christian religious music (you must be all for it or you're too PC) and teaching about Islam in a social studies course (ain't no daughter of mine gonna learn about no Mooslims! Religion don't belong in school!) on this thread.
There is plenty of secular music that has passed the test of time and can be used to illustrate musical styles.
"The Hallelujah Chorus" is entirely religious, cannot be seen as otherwise, and has no place in public schools, most especially as part of the morning announcements.
This piece of music has gone beyond religious and is seen as a master work of music. It is performed in concert halls. I have been in church for 67 years and not once has a church I attended performed it.
That is the context of it's use and not as a work of converting kids to Christianity.
Context is the key!
I agree that it's a masterpiece, but that does not preclude it from being religious. Every line is in praise of the Abrahamic god. There is no context that can make the lyrics say other than what they say, and the venues in which it is performed also do not negate its religiosity. I find many religious pieces of music to be beautiful, but that does not make them appropriate for a school setting.
That is true that the lyrics are what they say. That doesn't preclude them from being said in any public setting. Freedom of speech includes speech we don't like as well.
In the context of making students aware of the classics it is a perfectly acceptable use. No school kid is going to run out to be baptized after hearing the song.
Atheists get the exclusive right to have their music played in public schools?
It does in the case of a captive audience of public school students.
As far as "atheists'" music, could you give an example? I'm unaware of the existence of such a genre.
Good point. I think of creative people such as classical composers and artists as being spiritual. Can anyone name someone of that genre who is an atheist?
Wagner and Tchaikovsky. I am sure there are others.
Does their music promote atheism? No.
The "Hallelujah Chorus" promotes Christianity in every line.
And therein lies the difference.
How do you know that people are not influenced to become atheist because of the music? Could it be the same way you know that people are influenced to become Christian because of Handel?
How in the world could music that makes no reference to any gods make someone not believe in god?
And how in the world could a classical music clip make anyone believe in God?
It doesn't have to. But it does promote the idea of god.
Like nobody has ever heard of God?
Irrelevant. The school shouldn't be playing songs that promote religion, whether anyone has heard of that religion or not.
I agree that songs that promote religion shouldn't be played. I also believe that in the context of it's playing even though a song has a religious theme it isn't promoting religion.
Kids are smart enough to know the difference. Parents sometimes lack those skills. Especially those who seek to eradicate religion.
It looks like you didn't believe Perrie when she told you to not respond to my posts.
Once again, LEAVE ME ALONE!
Wow
Generic moderation …
If/when a moderator directs one member to cease and desist commenting/responding to a comment made by another member, abide by that directive.
The "shielded" member must be clear in his/her commentary, that he is neither directly/indirectly nor alluding to the member who has been directed to so cease and desist.
Beyond that, generally, keep it civil.
Tessylo,
I warned you to leave ausmth alone and that suspensions would happen if you didn't. You have earned yourself a 2 day suspension ending Sept 23 at 3pm.
I'm confused. We are allowed to call out members and tell them they are not allowed to comment to us? And then run and get a moderator every time it happens so they can get suspended? How about if we all make a list of members who are not allowed to comment to us, and then you can spend all your time keeping track of our personal complaints.
Nobody wants to eradicate religion. We want it kept in its proper place, which is between you and your deity. When you start using my government to push your religion, we have a problem. Morning announcements don't need musical accompaniment. Hell, most kids don't pay attention to them, anyway. Most teachers are intelligent enough to know that.
You may not but there are those who do.
And there are those who would, if they could, force others to abide by their religion.
Best if we all just mind our own, and keep our religion, or lack thereof, to ourselves. Don't try to convert my kids, and I won't try to convert yours. Don't finagle gods, yours or any others, into schools, and I won't walk down the hallways telling kids that gods, yours and others, are man-made.
In a school setting I agree. Playing classical music isn't preaching religion. It's music.
Music has a message. The message of "The Hallelujah Chorus" is overtly religious. Play something instrumental, and there won't be a problem. I wouldn't object to "The Hallelujah Chorus" minus the lyrics, even. But when you're singing about how "the lord god omnipotent reigneth", well, there's not way to honestly say that's not a religious message. It is. The quality of the music does not change that.
That message has long been drowned out by the history and artistry of performing the song. The tradition of standing happened because the king, George II, stood during the performance. The song is no longer a religious song but a performance of tradition.
That is a matter of opinion. Your opinion does not change the lyrics of the song.
And your opinion doesn't change the way the general public views the song, just another great piece of music.
Argumentum ad populum.
BTW, I think it's odd that you defend a baker because cakes apparently have a message, but want to claim that music with religious lyrics does not.
Well, not odd, really. More ironic.
I defended the baker from the heavy hand of government that would force him to write things against his will.
I would have baked the cake, decorated it and wished the couple well.
You want to have it both ways - art has a message when you want it not to be compelled, but its message somehow disappears when you want it to be compelled.
I don't want the government to do the compelling. There is no comparison between the cake and the song. The song is a recognized classic. Students should be exposed to the classics. It's why we read Homer in schools. The Iliad didn't make me go out and worship Zeus.
Should that be banned as well?
If one is art with a message, the other is also. But you approve of one.
Neither the Iliad or the Odyssey are religious books. There is plenty of classical music compositions that have no religious content, why can they not be played? Why is it that Christians seem to feel that they are allowed to deliberately circumvent the Constitution when they feel like it?
I've asked the same question. Never got an answer, except for the claim that nonreligious music is atheist music, as if it promotes atheism the same as religious music promotes religion. Double standards, and grasping at straws.
Was the song played an orchestra or choir or both?
Wagner was baptized and in his later works he infused them with his interest in Christianity. He was reputed to be the blological son of a Jew.
Being baptized as an infant does not make one a Christian for life.
Some denominations believe that it does.
Another good reason to keep religion out of school.
Infants go to school?
Irrelevant. The fact that one denomination within a religion can't even agree with another denomination of the same religion on such an important point of doctrine is ample illustration as to why nobody's religion should be promoted in public schools. Some Christians can't even agree on whether other Christians are actually Christians (like Mormons, for example, right?), so why should they be trying to turn nonchristians into Christians that everybody can't agree are Christians? If you all can't even agree on which fairy tale is the least unreal, why should you expect to foist your views on the rest of us?
But playing a clip of a classic isn't promoting anybody's religion. Nobody is signing up to join any denomination or getting wet. It's just music.
Come on now. Sandy means that conflicting beliefs in a public school setting has its complexities. While you apparently don't believe that baptism as a babe makes you a Christian, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians do. In fact, the oldest of Christian denominations, the Copts, do too. And then you have the Mormons who believe in baptism after death makes you a Christian. I think it would be better to leave the Christian meter (or for that matter any faiths or non faiths meters) and beliefs at the school door. And not for fear of them, but to simply life.
And this has strayed a long way from Beethoven.
Thank you, Perrie.
Neither do they since they have confirmation when the young person is old enough to learn about Christianity.
I am Baptist. The Baptists don't believe that baptism makes one a Christian. The decision must be made by the individual. That is the reason for confirmation.
I am heading back to the topic.
Catholics and other Orthodox Christians believe that Baptism brings a soul into the faith, and that communion and confirmation, means that re-affirm that belief. Even Jews go through a similar process, that a Bar-Mitzvah is the start of adulthood and entering the community, but confirmation means you as a free person commit.
Here is a clear description from Catholics.
Some non-Catholic Christians believe that Baptism is necessary and sets us free from sin. Many others think it is merely a symbol of one’s desire to follow Christ, having no real effect upon the soul. While most Protestants agree that Baptism is a good idea, many do not believe it is really necessary; and many think is unbiblical to baptize babies. Some fundamentalists believe that the only acceptable Baptism is by immersion.
The Catholic Church teaches that Baptism is both necessary for salvation and regenerative, causing us to be reborn as children of God. Through Baptism we receive the life-giving, sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. This grace wipes away Original Sin that stains each soul because of the fallen nature we inherited from Adam and Eve. The Church prescribes Baptism by water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as the normative gateway to God and his family, the Church. The Church has baptized infants from the earliest times and continues to do so today. The Church also teaches that catechesis must follow Baptism to properly assist the baptized on his Christian journey. Both immersion and sprinkling are acceptable forms of Baptism in the Catholic Church.
Baptism does not make one a 'Christian', it is what is in the heart of a person that makes the difference if they are a good person or not. There are many who call themselves 'Christians' who have committed some of the most evil acts in Gods name in this world.
I do not belong to any organized religious group, I practice the ancient religion of my Cherokee ancestors. Some think since I am not a 'Christian' that I am some sort of heathen.
However, the religious beliefs of Native Americans and other indigenous people is not pagan or heathen. It is a true belief in the Creator, and we are all free to worship the Creator in our own way. We do not fight over which form of worship or belief is right or wrong. It is called Harmony, Tolerance, Acceptance, and a belief that every person has the right to their own belief.
It is not any one religion that makes a person acceptable to the Creator, it is what is in their heart, and how they live their life.
Just my own thoughts.
Well said Raven Wing. Well said!
I agree that baptism has little to do with whether one is a good person or not, but I would say that neither does belief nor lack of belief in any deity. One can be a good person with no belief whatsoever in any higher power.
But what Perrie and I were getting at is that the variation in beliefs even among those who follow the same religion is so great as to justify government institutions remaining neutral. Some Christians hold that baptism is unnecessary, while others think you're not Christian if you're not baptised. With such diametrically opposed views regarding a little water (let's not even get into sprinkling vs. immersion), how can any believers feel they have the right to tell others what to believe? They can't even agree amongst themselves.
Perhaps but a work of Handel is what this is all about.
During the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, the artists weren't all that spiritual, the Church was the main paying customer of the time, and he who pays the piper selects the tune.
I wondered if you would be curious about that line. I thought I would share this extreme position. Atheist music is any music that isn't religious. Banning religious music even in a historical context is also an extreme position. What is missing from the atheist statement is context. That is what is missing from your position as well.
Preaching to a captive audience isn't appropriate. Playing different classics to show students there is more out there than rock, pop, country or rap is educational and not preaching to a captive audience. Getting two minutes of Handel isn't preaching.
👏👍
Nope, most music is neither theist nor atheist. It just doesn't reference god at all. Unless it promotes the idea of there not being a god, it's not atheistic. Words have definitions.
That is a true statement but you missed the point of my post. Extremism is what happens when context is ignored. I used an extreme position to point out your extreme position.
I was actually asking about atheists' music, meaning music composed by atheists, not atheist music.
Check out the Frank Turner tune below.
Sorry, but you must not be aware that I am unable to open YouTube, FaceBook, Google, Twitter - they're all blocked where I am. Tell me the title and the musician and I may find it on a site I can open.
Now that you mention it I do seem to recall. Sorry, haven't been around for some time.
The musician is a Brit singer/songwriter, Frank Turner. The tune is Glory Hallelujah.
Lyrics as such:
Brothers and sisters, have you heard the news?
The storm has lifted and there's nothing to lose
So swap your confirmation for your dancing shoes
Because there never was no God
Step out of the darkness and on to the streets
Forget about the fast, let's have a carnival feast
Raise up your lowered head and hear the liberation beat
Because there never was no God
And there is no God so clap your hands together
There is no God, no heaven and no hell
For there is no God, we're all in this together
There is no God so ring that victory bell
No cowering in the dark before some overbearing priest
No waiting until we die, until we restitute the meek
No blaming all our failings on imaginary beast
Because there never was no God
No fighting over land your distant fathers told you of
No spilling blood for those who never spread a drop of love
No finger pointing justified by phantoms up above
Because there never was no God
There is no God so clap your hands together
And there is no God, no heaven and no hell
There is no God, we're all in this together
There is no God so ring that victory bell
I know you're scared of dying, man and I am too
But just pretending it's not happening isn't gonna see us through
If we accept that there's an end game and we haven't got much time
Then in the here and now that we can try and do things right
We'd be our own salvation army and together we believe
In all the wondrous things that mere mortals can achieve
Well, I've known beauty in the stillness of cathedrals in the day
I've sung 'Glory Hallelujah', won't you wash my sins away?
But now I'm singing my refrain and this is what I say
I say there never was no God
There is no God so clap your hands together
There is no God, no heaven and no hell
But there is no God, we're all in this together
There is no God so ring that victory bell
One more time
There is no God so clap your hands together
There is no God, no heaven and no hell
But there is no God, we're all in this together
There is no God so ring that victory bell
If there was no God, our lives would have no meaning and there would be no purpose in it. There would be no values or morals and people would be selfish and would preserve their existence at all costs as long as possible.
Not necessarily true, XX. I have known a good many people in my life who were non-believers, and they had a very full and meaningful life. They were not lacking in morals, nor were they selfish or any of the things that you seem to feel that non-believers are bereft of. They were hard working individuals who believed in strong family ties, taught their children to respect others, tolerance and to be charitable to others.
Just because there are those who do not believe in God does not mean they are sub-human or some sort of lesser being. In fact, some of the non-believers have higher morals and far more tolerance and respect for others than a good many Christians I've seen.
You tend to paint with much too wide a brush, and accuse people of things when you know nothing about them. Just because they don't believe the same way you do does not mean they are not decent, law abiding and moral people. There are many who claim to live by the Good Book who are just as guilty of all the accusations you made about non-believers. Just because they claim to be Christians does not mean they truly live by their belief.
xx makes atheists sound like monsters. I get where you're going. I disagree 1000%.
Comment removed for skirting the CoC [ph]
Nope that would be the 'Christians' responsible for those mass murders. Comment removed for CoC violation [ph] You claim to be a 'christian'.
Really? All those state atheist communistregimes and a fascist regime too of the 20th century from all the dictators of the Soviet Union to Mao and China's cultural revolution to all the communist governments in Europe and then the Nazi regime in Europe and then the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia. The North Koreans have been brutal to believers. Now the present government in China 🇨🇳 is ramping up its persecution again though not yet to lethal levels again.
And yet there is literally no God.
It's sad that you feel that way, but it says more about you than nonbelievers, I think.
My life has meaning to me, perhaps more so because I believe that my life is limited by my biology. I don't get a second chance, so I'd better make this one count, and count for good.
I am seldom selfish. I would hold my moral values up in comparison to those of the vast majority of Christians, with confidence, because I know that I'm a good person. Moreover, I know that I'm a good person without needing to fear eternal damnation to keep me behaving myself. I am internally motivated to be a decent human being, not out of fear of punishment by exterior forces.
When someone only does good because they are afraid of the mystical eye in the sky observing them, they are the ones that you need to keep an eye on, not the ones who know there is no mystical eye in the sky.
I am an Evangelical Agnostic and I have a special purpose.
I have no clue as to whether or not there is some deity up out and away. Thus far there is no way to prove it either way. I just like Frank Turner's tune.
If we do have a god, I get the feeling we may have gotten late to the god sale and gotten ourselves a bargain basement deity. Maybe he/she/it is an apprentice and working hard to become a journeyman. I mean what good god creates a nasty little monkey with tendencies to poop in their own backyard, commit atrocities with vigor and on a regular basis and destroy the world they live in/on?
I just don't know. Crikey. It is a dilemma. It is a dilemma philosophers, religious scholars and witless goobers such as myself have been pondering since we crawled out of the ocean and pooped in our very first backyard.
there is a fine atheist anthem/hymn for you.
Catchy tune Tex!
It must not be too powerful though. It didn't make me want to go out and burn my Bible. I guess hearing a song just isn't that meaningful. Kind of like hearing Hallelujah Chorus doesn't make people go get wet and join a church.
Much as I am for the separation of church n state I'm with you. The Hallelujah Chorus never made me wanna run out of the holler and find some snakes to handle.
In my opine, there is quite a lot of music that transcends its religiosity and should be studied and heard.
Same for me! I live near a church that does handle snakes. Never been inside!
But playing devils advocate...
What if you found out that your 10 year old was just given this song in class to listen to?
Young minds are much more impressionable than older ones.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with teaching Beethoven's Ode to Joy, but it does present interesting questions when it's a song like this, isn't it? The question always becomes where is that line drawn?
Buzz version:
Buzz you have to copy and paste the addy without the those two diamond shape icons.
I have not read the whole thread and I want to agree with you context is important. Music, good music, can also be instructive.
Where does this tearing at the fabric of America end? Liberals are asking for a diverse nation, not a sterile one. Afterall liberals, and I am one and a Christian, are asking for all sorts of concepts to pass muster on school campuses that are supposed to make us all better people.
So what? Diversity works for liberals in school settings but the conservatives take zilch, nada, nothing while sitting in their seats.
I thought the agreement was no prayer, no creationism, no evangelizing, so now this sliding scale leads one to oppose transcendent hymns and musical moments.
We are losing the fight as evolved people. Our "great learning," our great American freedoms, from the tyrannies of the recent past, or making some of us, but not all of us, dangerously pessimistic.
We need better issues to fall out over than the "power" of a song. Children are not so delicate. Exposure to life won't hurt them. Afterall, remember what happened at Woodstock. Hippies!
Well said Calbab! While we argue over tiny things the world tumbles into chaos.
Can we all stop and realize that children of a certain age marvel at some of the ideas adults have about them? It is oddly strange that adults seem to be blind about the times they certainly remember once being kids. (Even elderly folks can remember back to three-years old.") Stop "playing" adult! Kids see us everyday and everywhere quarreling and posturing over issues they themselves have "vanquished" as fleeting moments in time.
I resist the suggestion (or protest) that an infringement has manifested itself at this school, simply because a subset of any group gets to stand (and shine) in the spotlight in an otherwise equal marketplace!
If the argument is against music -- then, the alternative is no music whatsoever doing the school day. Confiscate all playback devices and cellphones. Drastic enough?
Now somebody should stand up and shout: AUTHORITARIANISM!
Intelligent response.
"It's no about PC, it's about blasting overtly religious music at a captive audience. If the music was praising Allah, would you be content to have your child propagandized into Islam?" That's it exactly!
Would you? Interesting that you came up with that as an example.
Interesting that you didn't get I was responding to someone else and agreeing with them.
What's with you replying as Buzz -Comment removed for CoC violation[ph] What's the dealio?
It's about playing classical music. Not many kids have Handel, Mozart or Beethoven on their playlist.
How many Islamic composers of classical music are there? Google didn't find any.
Nobody is going to go get baptized because they heard a couple of minutes of Handel.
And there is nothing in court rulings that say classical music can't be played for children. The anti-religious rulings are fundamentally to stop forced prayer/forced conversion. If you equate hearing music to that, you need to re-evaluate your thought process.
The rulings concern the constitutions caution against the establishment of religion. When a public (government) school uses a captive audience to bombard them with overtly Christian music, it's unconstitutional. Plenty of beautiful classical music that is not religious.
I love classical music, but that is not the point. There is plenty of classical music that is not overtly religious. If you wish to play classical to children, then choose a less religious piece.
But religious music and literature can be used in the context of art, literature, poetry, even history as long as it's for an academic not proselytizing purpose. In the case here it was clearly academic.
How exactly is "morning announcements" academic?
How exactly is "morning announcements" academic?
I taught 34 years. Morning announcements serve an educational purpose.
No they don't. Ode to Joy is a celebration of friendship. It came from a poem by Scheller called "An Die Freude"
The words to Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee are sung to this tune as well and it's in the church hymnal.
You need to read the words maybe?
I have sung joyful joyful many times in church. It's words are quite different from ode to joy. The accompanying tune however is the same.
This is my favorite version of this song--
No Beethoven? Schiller's Ode to Joy put to music (the 4th movement of his 9th Symphony) has been played in many schools - even as a themesong.
There is a lot of religious music, no one is saying you can't play it, but it needs to be played at an event that people voluntarily go to, not at a captive audience.
no one is saying you can't play it
Yes there are those who say you can't play it. Some in the article we are commenting on.
And for them it's all about control. Content control and control over what others can say or do. Typical secular progressive fascism.
OK let's not be so hyperbolic about it.
The discussion is about what is acceptable in public schools. By definition, public means secular. That would mean that it would fall under the establishment clause.
It is a separate topic if this particular piece of music should be considered "religious". As music it has stood the test of time. And whether or not you personally view it as just music or religious music, I doubt the children will understand German, so to them, it is just a classical piece. I personally don't believe it is religious in nature. But that is besides the point. It is music that has a historical context and that makes it worth learning about.
What are we going to do if we travel down this path? Not teach about the Spanish Inquisition because it involves the Catholic faith? Or why Utah is mostly Mormon? Where does it end?
I think what is missing from this discussion is respect for what each of us believes. This is not a black and white issue. Ironically, I came to NV about a discussion about Happy Holidays vs Merry Christmas. 10 years later and this is still the topic of discussion. Amazing to me.
(NOTE: First and foremost, I love the site enhancements. I do miss my "strike-through" feature and sometimes I reach for it only to find it not there. But, I digress. I feel so much better now with so much new stuff, and old stuff that was "impossible" to get on my old site. Stellar!)
What is happening all around us is the continuous demonstrations of no compromise. No quarters for diversity. It is serious and it is dangerous to a society like ours. Our republic form of government at its critical best can handle a cacophony of opinions, cultures, and attitudes. What it can not deal with is authoritarianism, a method that expends its energies to shut others out of government.
No Beethoven? Schiller's Ode to Joy put to music (the 4th movement of his 9th Symphony) has been played in many schools - even as a themesong.
Buzz,
That is not a religious piece. I don't know where that misconception came from.
Maybe it's because they often play it at Christmas time where the birth of the Messiah is celebrated...I loved it at the end of the original Die Hard movie.
It was also used in A Clocokwork Orange. I would hardly call it spiritual in that.
Also the opening of Everyone Loves Raymond for 1 season.
Just because it became a staple for a holiday, doesn't mean that is what the piece was written for.
Respectfully, I cannot agree. IMO the poem has religious references and overtones. For example look at the words translated to English. Here are some selected quotes from it:
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! = Heavenly One, thy sanctuary! (In German, "Himmel" means "heaven")
und der Cherub steht vor Gott. = And the cherub stands before God!
Brüder, über'm Sternenzelt
Muß ein lieber Vater wohnen.
Ihr stürzt nieder, Millionen?
Ahnest du den Schöpfer, Welt?
Such' ihn über'm Sternenzelt!
Über Sternen muß er wohnen.
Translates to:
Brothers, above the starry canopy
There must dwell a loving Father.
Do you fall in worship, you millions?
World, do you know your creator?
Seek him in the heavens;
Above the stars must He dwell.
Note the capitalizations of the words "Father" and "He" meaning God, and is there no religious significance to the words "World, do you know your creator? Seek him in the heavens; Above the stars must He dwell."
From Wikipedia:
"According to Breymayer's statement, Schiller's poem and particularly the verses "Brüder – überm Sternenzelt/ muß ein lieber Vater wohnen" ("Brothers, above the starry canopy/ There must dwell a loving Father"), are a reference to Hahn's kernel concept of The Fatherly Love of God. [7]"
And as well...
What is the Meaning of the Poem "Ode to Joy"?
by Michael Stratford"Schiller's "Ode to Joy" is a fairly thorough examination of the emotion of joy, its origins and its purposes. It is inextricably linked now with Beethoven's Ninth Symphony and its distinctive "Freude" melody, but it's a fairly straightforward poem, and on its own it endeavors to create a feeling of, and appreciation for, the emotion of joy in the reader" (bolding added by BotO for emphasis)
"Joy is Needed and Available""Schiller's meanings in "Ode to Joy" are simple: Joy is needed for life and motivation, it is heavenly in origin and is available to mankind through a loving God. The proof of His love is found not only in nature's motivation to create perpetually, but also in nature's good things, such as the fruit of the vine. This is the evidence that should give all men hope, and allow them joy in that hope."
Although the ode itself contains religious references and overtones, the music by itself, being "inextricably linked" has taken on an identity. Think of this. If you heard the music only to "Silent Night, Holy Night" would not the words "Round yon virgin, mother and child, Holy infant so tender and mild" run through your head, or if you heard the music only ot "Give Me That Old Time Religion" would it not make you think of the words? Now, when authentically played, the ode is sung in German, so in America perhaps not so many would be influenced by its religious references, but they are there all the same. Some people who are incensed that there is such a thing as religion might think that the music causes religion to soak into a person through their pores.
Oh, by the way, I had fun coming up with this theory, but that doesn't mean you have to believe a word of what I said. LOL
This verse takes it away from the secular"
You millions, I embrace you.
This kiss is for all the world!
Brothers, above the starry canopy
There must dwell a loving Father.
Do you fall in worship, you millions?
World, do you know your creator?
Seek him in the heavens;
Above the stars must He dwell.
Ausmth,
I will disagree. It is poetry, and like most, can be interpreted in many ways. You can't look at one stanza without looking at the whole. In the beginning stanzas, he refers to greek mythology, then to brotherhood and friendship, and finally to a heavenly being. When I studied music (I play the violin) years ago, it was always taught that he was referring to the brotherhood of man and friendship.
But here is an interesting clip from The Atlantic:
The difference with Beethoven, of course, was that he was not composing with words. Our only clear guide to what Beethoven "meant" with the Ninth Symphony was his choice to adopt and slightly modify a poem by Schiller, the "Ode to Joy," for the choral finale. The poem is littered with allusions to Greek heaven, to wine and nature, to a loving God, and to the blessings of friendship and marriage. Perhaps the key line, in Sachs's reading, is one Beethoven modified to celebrate the moment when "All men become brothers." But the poem could easily permit interpretations of it as a secular hymn, or a religious exhortation, or a spur to heroism, or a classical bacchanalia.
And indeed it has. Decades later, Marxists heard a rallying-cry of proletarian unity. Nazis trumpeted it as a Wagnerian statement of Germanic strength. Americans nodded along to it in commercials for the Minnesota Twins or Nintendo Wii . Even the best musicologists haven't been able to agree on its meaning. Richard Taruskin called the choral finale "a mounting wave—or better, a spreading infection—of Elysian delirium." Maynard Solomon heard the herald of "a Deity who transcends any particularizations of religious creed...a fusion of Christian and Pagan beliefs, a marriage of Faust and Helen." Claude Debussy, a French composer of the early 20th century, made it out to be a "magnificent gesture of musical pride." All would perhaps agree with one thing: Taruskin's assertion that the symphony means something, but that nobody can "claim to have arrived at a definitive interpretation."
Which is at once a frightening and wonderful state of affairs. Unlike, say, Shakespeare's Hamlet , Beethoven's masterpiece authentically can and perhaps should mean something personal and different to everyone who approaches it, standing for whatever we view as the best, strongest, and most exalted about humanity. As Wilhelm Furtwängler—one of the best conductors of the symphony—once said, trying to nail down Beethoven's ideas any more precisely than that is like stabbing a butterfly to an entomologist's wall.
Sachs himself admits this prior to his admirable, "highly personal" analysis of the Ninth: "there is one inescapable fact": the symphony "belongs to each person who... attempts to listen to it attentively." We may never agree what it means, but, as with an eclipse, all we can do is approach it indirectly with caution, humility, and wonder.
I think that is probably the best description I have read.
It's a good description.
The problem today is those who wish to "sanitize" public discourse from anything religious wouldn't think it acceptable.
Now they attack classical music if it has religious themes. They are the ones driving this ridiculous outburst of cleansing.
Like all great music each listener takes away something different. Those who oppose exposure to this classic don't hear a great composition but it's religious so it's bad.
I like the new format. It is making conversation much easier.
ausmth,
Funny that we were both teachers and see this pretty much eye to eye. I think that studying Beethoven's music should be part of any musical education. It makes for a more well rounded person.
You mean the schools don't have safe rooms to comfort kids who are afraid to listen to Beethoven? LOL
I once subbed in a band class (I played trombone in hs) and the teacher left a film on Beethoven. The story of his life sounds like many of today's rock stars. The kids were surprised.
I have fond memories of Ode to Joy. In the church my parents used to force me to attend, they would blast Ode to Joy through the organs the moment that service was over, and I would blast down the isle like the road runner to go home and join my heathen friends playing outside. Come to think of it, it was a very good choice of song for the moment. meep meep!!
For the record, there have not been any reports of children spontaneously converting to the Christian faith as a result of George Frideric Handel’s beautiful song.
Well that's a relief. I would hate for this tradition of honoring me to end.
Not a problem. I have taken to playing it in my car very loud. Hallelujah!
First, as always it needs to be pointed out that this seeder trawls around the internet looking for obscure and meaningless examples of some complaint. It's always an incomplete account and it's always overblown by this seeder.
Now to the comedic part: Are people really claiming that Cohen's "Hallelujah" is a "version" of the hymn from "The Messiah?" Let's have a closer look at the lyrics, shall we:
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing hallelujah
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew ya
She tied you to a kitchen chair
She broke your throne, and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the hallelujah
I don't even know the name
But if I did, well really, what's it to you?
There's a blaze of light in every word It doesn't matter which you heard
The holy or the broken hallelujah
I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you
And even though it all went wrong
I'll stand before the lord of song
With nothing on my tongue but hallelujah.
And, we can always count on you to respond.
What hobby would you have if it were not for XX? You protest so loudly!
Similar things were done during our time on newsvine. The urge of the atheist to silence all expression of religion anywhere and disrupt it if they can't know no bounds. They are consumed with hate.
They are not going to get by with it on NT.
The first song I ever heard Leonard Cohen sing, and it was on a cool evening outdoors at the Mariposa Folk Festival in Ontario in the mid 1960s, was Suzanne, the song which paved the way to his fame. While I stood there, the hair on the back of my neck stood up. Since that time I have always considered him to be my favourite musician of all time. Even Bob Dylan, who curries no praise for anyone, has been reputed to have said: "The only musician who intimidates me is Leonard Cohen." (the word "intimidate" has a few meanings, but the only relevant meaning is "earning one's respect". I could be exaggerating a little because on stage at the Newport Folk Festival (not the one I attended which was the one where, to my astonishment, he went electric, to the boos of the crowd, but to the one where in a duet with Joan Baez she said "He speaks for me" and he replied with "She sings for me". Anyway, after all this bullshit I wanted to quote a verse from Suzanne, and you can determine if it was religious (not his religion) or not.
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water
And he spent a long time watching from his lonely wooden tower
And when he knew for certain only drowning men could see him
He said all men will be sailors then until the sea shall free them
But he himself was broken, long before the sky would open
Forsaken, almost human, he sank beneath your wisdom like a stone
Then you agree with me that Cohen's Hallelujah is okay to play in schools, because it is not religious, but perhaps philosophical? (although I wonder if they still teach philosophy in American colleges, because it could send a lot of students into their "Safe Rooms".
I love this modification of Cohens tune as performed by a young soloist and and accompanying choir in a school performance. Hope this link works. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=idh92r_ctPc
She has a great voice but verse wise Leonard is turning in his grave.
That video caused a tear or two the first few times I wached it. I thought she had an awesome performance.
Most sweet!! Thank you kindly.
Isn't it derailing putting that link in about autsim and vaccines - it is nonsense by the way.
Also - there is no links to vaccines and autism.
I meant to say - there are no links between autism and vaccines.
Cohen, being Jewish, would have phrased the song in consideration of Judaism, the Old Testament, and in fact refers to David playing the harp:
1 Samuel 16:14-23 CEV - David Plays the Harp for Saul ...
According to the dictionary, the word Hallelujah can be used two different ways. As a noun it means "a shout of joy" or in the case of hte song it is an exclamation of 'hallelujah" (the interjection), and as an interjection, it means: Praise ye the Lord.
Dictionary.com
I'm sorry Pat, but I have to disagree. I'm not a great expert on Leonard Cohen, but he has been my favourite musician since the 1960s, and I have been following his career ever since I first watched and heard him sing 'Susanne' back then. If I have any feeling for the person Leonard Cohen is, I think that if he sat and watched and heard Kaylee sing that song, he would have gone over and given her a hug and a kiss.
With all due respect I disagree. I think Leonard Cohen would be disturbed by the major changes of his song which is really a poem.
LOL Pat. A FRIENDLY agree to disagree.
Impasse!
Lol. Just kidding.
This is a favorite version of mine. Simply amazing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE
Awesome.....spectacular!!!!!!!!
That song is one of my favorites and the way it's done there was beautiful.
For those who want to comment on my prematurely ended seed about the SPLC hate group, it's been restarted here. https://thenewstalkers.com/redding-shasta-jefferson-usa/group_discuss/4318/theres-nothing-poor-about-the-southern-poverty-law-center
Got to keep the nonsense alive huh?
Are you joining Right American Nation group then?
If I had $1 for every time I've sung the Hallelujah chorus, (short version), in school, I'd be rich... Every time I passed a test, or got a better grade on something that I thought I hadn't done very well in... Every time mid-terms or finals were over... Every time I found my car in the parking lot at the dorm... Every time the cafeteria was open, as promised... At the end of every geology lab... etc.
Even the 9th Circuit wouldn't ban playing music in a school simply because the song is religious, especially it's part of a curriculum studying classical masters. It depends on the context. Playing this particular song over the loudspeaker to a captive audience is going to be a problem if that's the only selection every day.
However, the 14th amendment was enacted to ensure that states did not treat newly freed slaves as second class citizens. The drafters had no idea that the Court would take the prohibition against adopting a religion, as set forth in the 1st amendment, and read it into the "liberty" language of the 14th amendment to prevent playing religious music in a school.
Listening to a beautiful uplifting song like this is a great way for a child or anybody else to start out the day. I hadn't heard Kaylee sing before now so thanks for posting it.
I'm glad that you liked the Kaylee song. You make good points above.
Like you said so well, as long as it's not the only song they play. I am an old band geek. I love Holst. "The Planets" is seldom heard in schools. Mozart needs more play time as well. My favorite was used in "Elvira Madigan". Esterhazy needs air time as well.
"Elvira Madigan" !!! Now that's a movie I've forgotten about, so thanks for the reminder. If I recall the movie was one of the most lyrical films I've seen. I'll ask Nowhere Man to post put it on the Classic Cinema group, where you can watch some well chosen and sometimes esoteric and/or forgotten classic movies.
I need a clarification, please: What type of song is Hozier's, Take Me To Church?
Take Me To Church (Lyrics) by Hozier
She's the giggle at a funeral
Knows everybody's disapproval
I should've worshipped her sooner
If the Heavens ever did speak
She is the last true mouthpiece
Every Sunday's getting more bleak
A fresh poison each week
'We were born sick,' you heard them say it
My church offers no absolutes
She tells me 'worship in the bedroom'
The only heaven I'll be sent to
Is when I'm alone with you
I was born sick, but I love it
Command me to be well
Amen. Amen. Amen
If I'm a pagan of the good times My lover's the sunlight To keep the Goddess on my side She demands a sacrifice To drain the whole sea Get something shiny Something meaty for the main course That's a fine looking high horse What you got in the stable? We've a lot of starving faithful That looks tasty That looks plenty This is hungry work
Take me to church I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies I'll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife Offer me that deathless death Good God, let me give you my life
Take me to church I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies I'll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife Offer me that deathless death Good God, let me give you my life
No masters or kings when the ritual begins There is no sweeter innocence than our gentle sin In the madness and soil of that sad earthly scene Only then I am human Only then I am clean Amen. Amen. Amen
Take me to church I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies I'll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife Offer me that deathless death Good God, let me give you my life
Take me to church I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies I'll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife Offer me that deathless death Good God, let me give you my life
Sounds to me like a song about sex.
I am going to take a different tack to this discussion. This is a school and there are kids involved. The Hallelujah Chorus is a classic with words honoring Jesus Christ. What of it?
Are we expelling any/all representations of spirituality from the public marketplace? Can we/should we do this?
There are religious students in every school in this country it is called integration. Our schools should be workable, not just drone systems!
If you include songs promoting one religion, you have to allow songs promoting them all. Are you prepared for the consequences of that? And since morning announcements are compulsory - you'll need to make it compulsory to listen to, for example, the Muslim call to prayer, or whatever songs the Satanic Temple might like to have included (I really have no idea if they have hymns or not, but you can bet they'll jump at the chance you're trying to give them).