The Loss of Innocence...

The trade offs for global power and dominance...? 

I wonder if it's more of a city vs rural issue rather than an issue of the broader culture?    Where I live in a rural area in SW Wisconsin people behave much as you described Kiwis behave.    I think that's true of most rural areas in the US.

However I've also noticed a few broad cultural differences in my travels, like a very low violent crime rate in Hong Kong along with a relatively high petty crime rate.   Same thing in many parts of China and South Korea.    And at least compared to the US the bureaucratic corruption there is rampant whereas here the corruption is more common at the top of the bureaucracy.    In Finland near the summer solstice and in Hong Kong in late summer I've seen unaccompanied kids playing in public parks until 2 or 3am.   That just wouldn't happen in any US city today.

Perhaps it's an issue of how our news media uses the fear of crime to sell papers and sell TV advertising, thus elevating the interpersonal paranoia in the US?    "Bowling for Columbine" had some insightful comparisons about news coverage between the US and Canada which seem relevant here.

Thanks for commenting Skrekk...

Yes, there are still some rural 'pockets' of people that share this kind of sense of community here in the US, but rapidly becoming the exception as we become more divided and fragmented as a society.

I'm jealous. New Zealand is on my bucket list.

As a long-time donor to Sea Shepherd am hoping I can hitch a ride to Auckland as a deckhand someday.

Greetings CJ...you SHOULD be jealous!!!...he chuckles. With a passport an jus $1,200 for a round trip ticket...you too can scratch this off yer bucket list. Jus be aware...the 11 hour flight from the west coast is BRUTAL in the sardine seats of coach...but it's worth the leg cramps and sleep deprivation. The sun is brutal...very little OZONE. Bring sunscreen and slather up. Two hours without sunscreen and you will be a tender mass of ozzing water blisters.

Hopping a ship...sailing or otherwise, is another option.

Welcome home M'Lord. Glad to know that you had a happy journey New Zealand. It's on my bucket list, too. 

We’ve lost our innocence as a nation and a people…and we are rapidly and unconsciously being stripped of our sense of humanity. In our paranoid induced stupor, we actually teach our children not to look at…have eye contact with, smile at or talk to strangers. Children who grow up believing people they don’t know are to be feared and treated with suspicion.

So true. It makes me very sad. 

AAAAaaahhhhh M'Lady...!!! Ah got 'inspired'. 

By all means...you need to GO...!!! It's a beautiful place to be. You've gotta stay at least two weeks, but don't expect to leave the North Island and DO expect to feel like you haven't seen squat and have to return sooner then later. But no worries...you'd feel the same way even if you were there for 3 months.

I go back to the days when we didn't need to lock the doors of our homes, even when we were not there, and I, too, have witnessed the changes of what you speak.  I travelled in Europe, even in Morocco, more than 45 years ago and felt safe. I would not feel that way today, nor would I feel safe even in America these days, and, sadly, even my own country, Canada, is changing for the worse.  That's why I have no desire to leave from where I've been living for the past almost 12 years - China, where I am happy, respected, more comfortable than I could possibly afford back home on my income, and I feel perfectly safe.

I echo Perrie in being happy to see you back here again.

I never lock my doors at home although one of my neighbors did have their house broken into several years ago.    But their house isn't visible from the road and I've got big dogs.

I'd second your observation about China.   I've never felt any personal threat there at all but I do keep my wallet where it's inaccessible.

"I do keep my wallet where it's inaccessible."

I can't disagree with you on that. Petty stuff like that does happen here although I've never experienced it.  However, my wife, being from here, makes damn sure I'm careful about my wallet.  As well, the apartment doors are made of steel and have deadlocks that penetrate into the steel door frames in multiple places - you would need to bomb the door to break in. 

As well, the apartment doors are made of steel and have deadlocks that penetrate into the steel door frames in multiple places

That's probably the weirdest part for me about traveling overseas and not just in China but Italy and many other countries - the visual awareness of an ever present security risk.    I felt the same when many decades ago I first traveled from Colorado into New Mexico and noticed that many residences had security fences and used security services.    Of course people who live in big cities see that stuff frequently, but it's just not present or quite so obvious where I live.

I live in a rural agricultural town of maybe 20K people in Eastern Washington. The wire screens over the doors and windows and security services are commonplace in this predominantly Hispanic Spanish speaking community.

I wonder if there's a correlation between historically "open range" states and the presence of security fences here?   I remember seeing some fences in NM which were quite short and not very practical for anything other than (maybe) keeping out grazing cattle.

Guess thaa depends on what you call a 'security fence'. A barbed wire fence to contain critters or a 10' chain link fence with coiled barbed wire and blades on top...? chuckles...

I once spent some time in El Paso, Tx.  Yes, there was a girl......but, all the houses have welded metal bars over the first floor windows and most homes have walls around them too.  I'd hate to have to live like that......

BTW, Good to see you, TL.  Nice to see old friends making an appearance.

SPIIIIIKE...!!!

Thanks for popping in and dropping a nugget. It's ALWAYS a pleasure to see you in the house!

Of COURSE there wuzza gurl...yeah, from Texas spanning to So Cal there are LOTS of homes that 'sport' bars on their windows. A little decorative touch gleened from the 'Big House'.

When looking for a place to live...if it's necessary to have a perimeter wall and bars on the doors an windows for security...thats the indicator it's necessary to look for another town or another location to live. 

Aye Buuuzzzz...! 

A pleasure to see you again as well.

I recently went back to NZ, but this time for 6 weeks, between Feb/March this year. Yeah, oddly enough...on my return home, as I pulled into my driveway...I realized someone had stolen my $1,500.00 wood splitter during my 6 week absence...welcome back kotter...sooooo frustrating. The low life soulless population is on the rise...

Hi Timey, good to hear from you...

I will agree on your perspective of NZ. When I was working I had 3 offices in NZ. Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch and spent quite a bit of time there. 

Also did a couple of caravan trips throughout the north and south island. Still have friends there to this day that visit us in the US from time to time. 

Good to have you back.

So GOOD to see you friend...! Yes, you WOULD know what I'm talking about. I would like to find a way to spend six months in each hemisphere following the summer. Yes...I too have made some life long friends in New Zealand. Very genuine and unpretentious and giving people. 

Did you ever make it up to Hanmer Springs in the mountains on the South Island? Fantastic scenery!

I did doc...Did you ever get to the ''black water rafting'' on the north island. An underground river that runs under a mountain. Fantastic adventure.

While on the south island I went Bungee Jumping for the first time. Celebrating my 65th birthday. Then did some hang gliding...Ha, figured I'd lived to 65 so what did I have to lose. 

...chuckles...so far I've spent 4 and a half months in country, and I regret to say...I've YET to get down to the South Island. From everything I've seen and read...it's a beautiful place, much more rural and less populated then the North Island. Only a fourth of New Zealands population lives on the South Island. Oddly...I found the Kiwi's don't travel between the two islands very much. Much of the reason is the high cost and relatively limited access between the two islands. Either you ferry across with a vehicle for around $200 plus, one way...for car and passengers, boat across...or fly in for about the same cost, but without vehicle transportation. The cost and logistics are not very conducive to inter-island travel. For about the same money, a person could fly to Australia.

Getting to the South Island is still on my agenda. I'm very excited to see Queensland, and Christchurch and get down to Stewart Island off the southern tip of NZ. 

Kavika...I heard of that rafting trip and the 'glow worms' that live inside the caverns. I haven't done that yet...but I WILL get to it. I wanted to go as far north as I could go and the furthest SOUTH I could go, which is Stewart Island. So at this point, I've been to Cape Rengie to the north. In fact, the pic for this discussion is the light house on Cape Rengie. This is where the Pacific and the Tasmanian Sea come together. The cape is a sacred place for the Mauri. I've seen the tree giants of Tane Mahuta...another sacred place. These trees are over 2,000 years old. Beautiful places to see and many things to experience and learn.

...bungie jumping...now THAS on my bucket list...maybe. Really...At this stage of the game, whats to loose...?

The water is damn cold so you wear a full wetsuit and a miners helmet with light. It's blacker than a NZ well digger ass down there. But it's great fun and in some places the roof of the caves are so low that you have to lay out flat to make it trough and in over places the caverns 50 ft high and covered in glow worms.

The bungee jumping was great fun. I did it off the Kawarau Bridge in Queenstown on the south island. The first place that bungee jumping was done in NZ. It's originally from Vanuatu in the south pacific were the natives jump off huge/high platforms using natives vines as the bungee cord...Now that is downright crazy..LOL.

BTW, I have a number of friends that are Maori since a fair number of our employees were Maori and we did sponsor the local rugby team in Auckland. I even learned the basics of doing the Haka. LOLOL

Here is the Haka being down by a NZ Ranger Battalion that was honoring a fallen comrade in Afghanstan...You don't F....with this guys.

   video.search.yahoo

Looks like I've got to open an acct to access the link.

The Haka is VERY intense...! A warrior's chant...like I said, I have the UTMOST respect for the Kiwi military. I brought a smudge stick over the first time to share with the Mauri. And yes I did...

I was somewhat concerned that customs wouldn't allow me to bring it into the country since white sage is organic plant material. I declared it coming into country and was split out of the line and had to speak to a custom's agent about what it was and what it was used for...then he simply said..."OK"...

My next trip I want to see and experience the Haka at a Mauri village. As I'm sure you know, they have ceremonial locations where they will share some of their dances and traditions with tourists. I've only seen films of the Haka being done.

My first trip, I had a tattoo done on my upper arm of a Mauri Tokum...the Stingray. Their artwork design is very distinctive with it's 'fern like' swirls. It 'connects' me to NZ and it's Mauri history and culture. Across the top is inscribed..."AOTEAROA", which is the Mauri word for New Zealand, meaning..."Land of the Long White Cloud". 

Here is a better video/link to the military Haka.

THANKS KAVIKA...!!! Watching the Haka gives me chills, it's so emotionally intense and so moving. 

In the movie "Central Intelligence", Dwayne (the Rock) Johnson is a soccer coach for a team of young girls. Before the the beginning of the match, he leads the Haka with his daughter and the other girls on his soccer team. It's pretty cool...and he does it very well...! 

Sadly, the only time I ever got to see the North Island was the airport at Auckland on my way to Christchurch. Never did the bungee jumping thing. Hanmer Springs started that after my time. I have heard about that "black water" rafting on the North Island and it is on my bucket list someday.

A trip just to go black water rafting is well worth it doc.

I've heard of this as well, jus haven't found it yet. 

I've seen a project about the soldiers that do the Haka. Very interesting and enjoyable to watch. I think it is great that they do this. Very impressive. 

I got to watch members of the Royal New Zealand Army Support Group perform the Haka at McMurdo Station, Antarctica. Impressive does not begin to describe the performance!

Yep...the energy and emotion it invokes transcends a 'performance'.  

Yes it all comes down to the culture of the people. When my mother was a child in Detroit she would ride the buses all over the city at the age of ten without fear. Then the culture changed in the 50's and the city turned into a crime riddled dump with a totally different culture. It is very much a localized thing you can go just a couple of miles and find a totally different culture of people. Now I find myself moving to areas where the culture of the people is in alignment with the culture I feel most comfortable in. Queenstown, NZ is high on my list of areas appeals to me. 

I would travel to Detroit in the 60's and early 70's to visit.  Stroh's, Greektown, Tiger games, Detroit Zoo, concerts, etc.  It used to be a fun town and I don't remember ever feeling scared, even when we got lost.  I couldn't say that now.  The culture is different.

You are describing the culturally fragmented nature of how this country has become. Even though we were/are a country of many different nationalities, it seems in the past, immigrants were united in their desire to become Americans. NOW...many immigrants have no desire to become Americans. They come to this country for the money and benefits. They have little need or desire to learn or speak English. Entire areas and towns in the US have become population pockets comprised of an entirely different nationality, culture and language. Our American language, culture, history and heritage is being decimated and compromised by Political Correctness...but thas another article.

Entire areas and towns in the US have become population pockets comprised of an entirely different nationality, culture and language.

If anything the reverse is true since the US has become far more homogeneous since WWI and WWII.    Here in Wisconsin we used to have a number of German language only towns and German and Finnish newspapers, but no more.    TV news anchors have also played a significant role in language leveling since there's a strong network preference for an upper midwestern or central Canadian dialect, although that's probably changing already with the rise of video streaming and the fact that network news no longer has significant viewership except with the elderly.

Outside of certain small communities of recent immigrants (Hmong, Somali, Syrian, etc), groups like the Amish and some tribes in the SW it would be hard to find a community of any size today where most kids don't learn a regional English as their first language, or at least coincident with the acquisition of the language spoken at home.    In my view that's a huge loss.

You are absolutely correct. Assimilation was always something desirable to the immigrants in the first centuries of American history. Today immigrants have immigrant activist organizations which seem to promote immigrant solidarity and the use of languages other than English to be used for educating. Part of the problem is that despite efforts over the years, the US does not have an official language. It may not have needed to do so in the past, but the nation needs it now.

"Outside of certain small communities of recent immigrants (Hmong, Somali, Syrian, etc), groups like the Amish and some tribes in the SW it would be hard to find a community of any size today where most kids don't learn a regional English as their first language, or at least coincident with the acquisition of the language spoken at home.    In my view that's a huge loss."

In the area where I live, there is a huge Hispanic population. Many of the smaller towns in the area have become predominantly Spanish speaking. I've spoken with individuals who have lived in this country for 10 years or more but can BARELY speak the English language. In my opinion, this is pathetic...when I am in a foreign country, I make every effort to honor and respect the people and the culture of the country by speaking their language. I think if an immigrant is LIVING in the US, WORKING in the US, and DRAWING BENEFITS in the US...it's incumbent on the immigrant to learn and SPEAK the ENGLISH language and TEACH English to their children. Quite often, I see ADULTS trying to take care of business with an agency or trying to pay a bill and they bring along their CHILDREN to act as interpreters for these adult conversations because it's easier then learning how to speak English. Business billboard advertise in Spanish, se habla espanole...perro no habla Engish. Do you think they are targeting the white English speaking Americans with their advertising...? Of course not...but I'm getting side tracked to another story and discussion.

There was a time when an immigrant had to learn the English language well enough to take and PASS the citizenship exam. At this point in time...I wouldn't be surprised if our citizenship exam is now given in SPANISH...!!! PC politics dictate we need to now 'accommodate' the non-English speaking person by providing interpreters in all matters legal. There is no longer the 'need' to learn or speak English. We have enabled English Illiteracy.   

Business billboard advertise in Spanish, se habla espanole...perro no habla Engish. Do you think they are targeting the white English speaking Americans with their advertising...?

The US has no official language just a dominant one.    Advertisers have no obligation to advertise in any particular language but if the community is largely Spanish speaking then it makes sense to advertise in that.

As I noted upthread some of the communities in my state used to be German speaking.   The real problem in the US today is that the vast majority of persons are monolingual.

My brother in law knew two English words when he arrived here from Italy...thank you.  He immediately joined a class to learn English.  However, about 15 years later when he took his contractors test for a license he was allowed to bring an interpreter  in the state of CA.  He took my sister who actually took the test.

However, about 15 years later when he took his contractors test for a license he was allowed to bring an interpreter  in the state of CA.  He took my sister who actually took the test.

Then his contractor's license is fraudulent. Not good.

Thanks for popping in Mag...my grandparents immigrated from Italy. They learned English, and always spoke English with the occasional Italian phrase thrown in. I wish they had actually taught my mom more Italian that she might have passed it on to us. When they immigrated to the US...they were here with BOTH feet. They became hard working AMERICANS and they were proud to be an American. They embraced the American culture and the language and they didn't try to re-create Italy here in the US. They LEFT Italy to come here...!  

...and there you have the REST of the story. It's tough to integrate, survive and succeed within a society if you don't speak or understand the language. 

Exactly. If I move to another country I will learn the language and the cultural mores.

It's jus the 'right' thing to do...which is why I'm having such a difficult time with this language thing here where I live. Hispanics living here seem to be embarrassed and unwilling to speak English. It's like belonging to the Spanish Club and if one Hispanic addresses another...it's usually in Spanish, not English. This could be on the street, in the bank or grocery shopping. In public, I am surrounded by Spanish speaking people and it makes me uncomfortable when I don't understand what they are saying around me. When someone immigrates and resides in the US, it seems like an affront and disrespectful to the history, culture and citizens of our country NOT to learn and speak English. If a person doesn't willing to invest themselves in the US and learn to speak the English language...take it back home. Santa Anna LOST...and why we speak English in this country...not Spanish! 

It's tough to integrate, survive and succeed within a society if you don't speak or understand the language.

And in truth, that can be said about right here in America when moving from one part of the country to another. I was raised in every Southern state but Florida, so of course I had the mixture of the various dialects and the drawal. When I moved from Texas, the last state I lived in before moving to So Calif, I had no idea what waited for me on the other end. I was still in high school at the time, and boy did I get an education on how different the dialects were. I spoke so slow that people would grow irritated at how slow I spoke. But, they spoke so fast I could hardly understand what they were saying. And the slang and terms were very different as well. I was living in San Diego, and much of the conversation included a lot of the local beach terms which I had no knowledge of, as I had never lived near a beach. And a lot of my Southern terms and slang was foreign to them as well. It took a while to get used to how each of us talked, but, we finally managed to adequately communicate.

Then...when I moved back East, there was another adjustment needed in order to communicate with the locals there. (grin)

But, in all, it was a very interesting learning curve linguistically speaking, as well as culturally. 

Time Lord, you are in the perfect situation to learn spanish, you almost immerse yourself by living there. Ask your hispanic neighbors to speak english and tell them you want to learn to speak spanish. Win win.

...he chuckles...EEEEeeeya...no. When I was in High School, I took two years of Spanish and a year of German. I can already speak basic conversational Spanish and I can read and understand alot of written Spanish. If I were living in Mexico or another Spanish speaking country, I would be much more motivated to learn and become more fluent, but thas not my situation or my life. To use your framework...that would be my NEIGHBORS life and challenge. Seriously...I've seen Hispanics who can speak perfectly good English, who simply choose to speak Spanish whenever they can, rather then English. Lazy, embarrassed...maybe it's a 'peer' thing and not the latino thing to do...I have no idea why they are averse to speaking English in public, but the fact that it's so common place...it's become disturbing, annoying and offensive. And our PC culture which enables English Illiteracy makes it difficult to address without sounding like a 'racist'. 

Very good point. We have many different dialects here in the US, but they are still a somewhat twisted version of English, much like speaking with the Kiwi's or Aussies, but it's not the same as speaking a totally different language altogether. 

Interesting take on it. Perhaps I grew up in a different world, but the region I grew up in many languages were spoken. In fact we had five weekly newspapers (one page locals) each in a different language....Italian, Serbo-Croation, both Latin and Cyrillic, Finnish and English. The Iron Range of MN and it's workers were mostly immigrants except for the Natives that lived and worked there (that's a different story). In fact there were so many languages spoken there that a made up language was used in the mines among many of the miners. 

IMO, the first and second generation of immigrants tend to speak their native language after that it starts diminishing. It's not the language it's the ''American Spirit'' that matters. And no matter what language you speak, you are an American. 

My opinion.

but it's not the same as speaking a totally different language altogether.

Agreed. The most difficult language I ever learned was Japanese. German was also a bit difficult, as there is High German and Low German. French was not so bad. The hard part of learning different languages is if you don't have anyone near you that speaks the language for you to learn with. And there are also different dialects and slang from different parts of the country that add to the confusion. I'm in the process of learning Korean and Chinese. Spanish was pretty much a given as there are large Mexican populations in Texas, NM, AZ and So Calif, so picking up that language was not that hard, and there were plenty of people around to help me learn. 

What makes it more fun, is speaking these languages with a Southern drawl. 

And no matter what language you speak, you are an American.

Agreed!!

I probably shouldn't have jumped into the middle of this topic without first providing some kind of preface article to provide some 'context' to my perspective and my concerns. 

Of course we're all Americans...provided of course a person has their citizenship. A person speaking a foreign language in and of itself is not the issue in my mind. I see a sociological 'trend' that is having a much larger impact on our Nation and a 'symptom' of these changes is the language issue I brought up. 

Probably should jus write the article then we can sit around and 'chew' on it...

No worries. Looking forward to the new article. (smile)

  Our IT guy is married to a Kiwi woman and make the pilgrimage there every two years or so.  Lucky git.

Great story Time Lord, thanks for sharing it!

No Worries Fargo...appreciate you stopping in and commenting.

I had the distinct privilege of visiting Christchurch, New Zealand on multiple occasions back in the late 80's and early 90's when I was in the U.S. Navy assigned to the National Science Foundation's "Operation Deep Freeze" in Antarctica. The Kiwi's are some of the finest and friendliest people on this planet and will give you the shirt off their backs if they think someone is in need and never ever expect anything in return. New Zealand is a awesomely beautiful country with a rich and diverse cultural heritage. If I were ever going to emigrate to another country, New Zealand would be the place.  During my times in Christchurch, I loved going to the city square for lunch and having fish and chips in front of the Christchurch Cathedral! One of New Zealand's most notable characters and almost a national treasure is a gentleman known locally as the Wizard. It was always a treat to watch him climb up on a step ladder and expound on any number of subjects. I was absolutely heartbroken to hear of the earthquakes that did so much damage to Christchurch and the destruction of the Cathedral. I still hope to return to New Zealand again before I get too old.

Oye Ed...! Your assessment of the Kiwi's is spot on. They will give you the shirt off their back. I agree...I would move down there inna heartbeat. 

The two biggest detriments that I found was...the country is very bureaucratic and in my opinion...over-regulated. I think it stiffles growth. The other thing is...there is little OZONE...! If yer not slathered in sunscreen...you'll easily blister and FRY within a couple hours of being in unprotected sun. By the time ya realize yer gittin burned...it's too late. Oh...an stay away from the "Vegimite". OMG...!!!

You got that right about the vegemite. Tried it once and almost threw up. Never tried it again! My Kiwi friends were laughing their heads off at me. At the time I was there they had a tax rate of about 40%! Fortunately, the exchange rate between the U.S. dollar and the NZ dollar was heavily slanted in favor of the U.S. dollar and we lived like kings. Have no idea what the exchange rate is these days. You are correct about New Zealand being highly regulated. it was that way when I was there. They had what they called the "dole" which was birth to death social welfare. The high taxation rate is partially attributable to this I believe. There were also caps put on salaries of professionals. No ambulance chasing lawyers in that country! They had what was known as the ACC or Accident Compensation Commission. This regulated the monetary amount one could expect from accident in industrial generated litigation. This country could sure learn some lessons from New Zealand!

Yea...the Vegimite is jus NASTY...! I couldn't get it past my nose, let alone to my LIPS...! But they eat it like it was peanut butter. Ah don't git it...but they've grown up with that nasty foul smelling stuff and have acquired a 'taste' for it. I don't know HOW...?

Yea...the Vegimite is jus NASTY...!

That's funny. I have a fair amount of friends from the land of Oz (they have Americanized their own Aus over the years).

They love vegimite on buttered toast and other toppings. There is another product from the UK that is used as a substitute at times. My understanding is other product was used prior to one of the World Wars which interrupted shipping and the ever ingenious Aussies came up with vegimite.

Hey Dave...thanks for stopping in and sharing your experiences and thoughts. 

Yes...it's called Malmite or something similar to that. Equally disgusting...! 

You are welcome TL and I think you are right, it's malmite or something similar. All my "mates' consider it second rate.

They are somewhat disgusted the newer restaurants cater to the "hipsters" (aka "yuppies") and seldom have buttered toast and vegimite.

I've got open invitations in Perth, Sydney and Gold Coast. It's funny, when talking on the phone the ear doesn't need to acclimate as much talking to the folks on the east coast or Melbourne. Talking to the folks in Perth requires a couple sentences before the ear acclimates. The Northern Territory takes a little work too.

Then there is the Kiwi who moved to the Perth area. He's a character.

Cheers mate.

CHEERS DAVE...!!!

To me, the Aussies and Kiwi's sound the same...but the Kiwi's and Aussies can tell straight away the differences in pronunciation. It was explained to me, that the Aussies have a more naaaasal quality to their intonation. I don't know...I don't pick up on it...I swear, there are times when I have to almost be 'lip reading' to cut through their accent and slang to figure out what is being said. Seemed like I was always goin..."whaaaaaa"....? They'd jus laugh as I tried to sort through what they were trying to say.

Hi Dave,

Grew up between the US and the UK and I still can't stand Marmite. It's disgusting. The Brits know it, too. 

But I still love kippers for breakfast.. mummy dear, mummy dear. 

MARMITE...thas it...!!! Thanks Miss Perrie...ah knew it was SOME kinda 'mite'. I think it's MADE with lil ground up mites.

Ok M'Lady...what are 'Kippers'...?

Thaa seems to hold true. Either you love it or HATE IT...

Kippers are a fish that you fry up for breakfast. 

It was in the song Breakfast in America, by Supertramp

Could we have kippers for breakfast
Mummy dear, mummy dear
They got to have 'em in Texas
'Cause everyone's a millionaire

I thought it was funny that they referenced Texas.. but I found out that they said that because they knew no one in Texas would know what a kipper was.. but neither would your average NYer. 

That's cuz Texans don't speak English...Point in fact when I communicate with one Texan I have to get a fish translator.  Usually it's mighty minnow.

....ahhhhhhh. OK...I get it. Speaking of food...Kiwi's LOVE an egg and beets on their hamburgers...! It's actually QUITE GOOD...! They are also fond of having baked beans for breakfast. They LOVE sausage as well for ANY meal. They also eat a small smelt like fish ground up into patties and fried. It's good...! Of course Sheep/lamb is very popular and a main staple of diet. Meat PIES...not so wild about those. Kumara...is a favorite, particularly with the Mauri. It's like a sweet potato. It's ok...but I'm not a real fan of sweet potatoes. 

...fish translator...? Boy Kavika, thaa one went right over my head. I know Cajuns can certainly twist up the English language.

I'm having a little fun with a Texas member of NT who is also a friend named Bad Fish...Thus the fish references.

Hi Perrie,

I missed your post last night. Marmite, that's it. That's the Aussies back up if no Vegimite available.

Kippers in the morning.

I'll take kippers too. I don't know if you have tried catfish and potato pancakes;  tasty. But I've got kippers and potato pancakes on the to do list.

Cheers

Forgot to mention that most people do not realize the seasons are reversed down there. When it is summer here, it is winter there and vice versa. I remember flying down there one year the end of May and freezing my tail off with wind and rain. Forgot to take a jacket with me and had to buy one for the two weeks I was there!

...oh yeah. It's also pretty disorienting to have the sun crossing east to west in the NORTHERN sky instead of the southern arc we see here. The NORTHERN island is warmer then the SOUTHERN island since it's closer to the equator. Yea...Christmas in the middle of their summer is a real head spin as well. On TV, you see Christmas store commercials depicting the northern version of a 'White Christmas' depicting fridgid snow covered trees outside. And inside the home, the warm fire is burning and the family is crowed around the big dining room table eating the Traditional heavy Christmas meal. When in reality...the typical Kiwi family is at the beach swimming and having a barbecue. A very weird and somewhat unsettling disconnect...

Their minimum wage is around $15-16 bucks an hour which contributes to their inflation. A Whopper Meal goes for around $12 bucks. The currency exchange difference still favors the US dollar. For each $100 US, we get about $150 NZ dollars which helps to level the playing field and bring expenses down. Almost EVERYTHING that comes to NZ has to be shipped in one way or another. This also contributes much to high prices for goods. For example...a simple house fan. I tried to by a small circulating fan midway through their summer this year and I found out the there was none to be found for sale on the north island. I found a store that had squirreled away a simple pedestal fan and was selling it for around $120 bucks NZ. A small container of maybe 10 ea. flat washers at the auto parts store was selling for around $8.00. Just stupid prices. A colorful bouquet of flowers for $60 bucks and it goes on. The exchange rate made expenses abit more tolerable.

There was no drama or trama in the custom's line coming or going. They were very friendly, respectful, professional and cordial in the manner in which they did their job.   

And when you flush the toilet the water washes down the opposite way it does in the northern hemisphere.

...thas true...! It seems like EVERYTHING is backwards...even driving on the WRONG side of the street. The round abouts become a real head spin when as you try to figure out which side of the center line to jump off on as yer spinning around the loop looking to exit without side swiping and taking someone out in the process. The steering wheel is on the wrong side, turn signals on the wrong side, manual and automatic shift levers on the wrong side. I constantly had to remind myself..."sitting on the center line...sitting on the center line. I would get into trouble when I was distracted and not paying close attention...OR...when I was driving on a dirt road with no center line. Invariably...I'd catch myself driving on the wrong side, as the approaching vehicle is weaving back an forth trying to figure out WHICH SIDE I was actually going to use to pass by. It made it worse when I didn't know where I was going. Google Map was a life saver...it was much easier listening to the directions and knowing exactly where and when to turn. This would give me an 'alert', which allowed me to be ready and prepared up to a quarter mile before my exit or turn. 

LOL, having lived in Australia and other countries that drive on the ''wrong side'' I never had much of a problem. One reason I was told that is because I'm left handed and used to everything being done on the opposite side...LOL

Now THAS an interesting observation...hummmm. I DID notice on this last trip a couple months ago...I did feel more comfortable driving and the transition and uncomfortable feeling didn't seem to last as long. I adapted fairly quickly...that said, I don't mean to imply that I didn't have more then ONE of those..."OH SSSSSSSHIT...!!!" moments when I turned into the oncoming traffic...! LOL...OMG...be still my beating heart...! I felt like ssssuch ah WANKER...! I also got to learn alot of cool new slang. Can you tell? Sitting here like ah "whinging POM" going on about Vegimite...? I had so much fun and had great conversations with my Kiwi friends jus talking about their slang...so funny. 

LOL, I still use Kiwi and Aussie slang from all the time I lived and worked there. 

If you can understand all the saying from ''Waltzing Matilda'' and can play ''two up'' your a honorary Anzac. 

"...even driving on the WRONG side of the street. The round abouts become a real head spin when as you try to figure out which side of the center line to jump off on as yer spinning around the loop looking to exit without side swiping and taking someone out in the process."

LOL.  That conjured a memory for me, driving while on a vacation in England about 46 years ago.  I was on a divided highway and when I encountered a roundabout with a few offshoots I had to circle it about 3 or 4 times trying to figure out which road I needed to exit on to continue back along the divided highway.

It took little time to get used to the wheel and driving to be on the other side than what I was used to, and the only time I really screwed up was when I was going to walk across the street in front of Harridges. I automatically looked to the left before stepping into the street, then took a step and almost got creamed by a car coming from the right. 

When I was there, all American military and civilian  personnel assigned to the Antarctic program were paid cash in U.S. dollars. My standard procedure was to go the Bank of New Zealand branch office at the airport in Christchurch, which was walking distance from my office and convert about 2/3 of my pay into NZ dollars and keep the rest in U.S. dollars. I spent a lot of time driving in and around Christchurch eating out and hitting the pubs downtown. Had a total blast! Saw a lot of the South Island but almost nothing of the North Island. I plan on rectifying that some day.

LOL, I still use Kiwi and Aussie slang from all the time I lived and worked there.

Isn't that the truth. I have never lived there, but I correspond with them so much, pretty much daily, that I have to check my spelling with whoever I am corresponding with because I will switch American English and the Aus version of the Queens English mid sentence 2 or 3 times if not careful.

Realize = Realise

Tire = Tyre

Wrist Pin = Grudgeon pin

Color = Colour

Not quite sure how to correctly translate bogan and hooning into American English in this venue.

A few refer to me a Coba sometimes. I think it's a good term...I think.

Loved that !

I have always loved that song. My Mother played the piano since childhood, and we used to sit together on the bench and sing along with the music she played. Waltzing Matilda was one of our favorite songs to sing. When I got older, we would harmonize in the songs, and Waltzing Matilda was really fun to harmonize to. 

When my Mother was on the PBX at the Muroc Army base before WWII, where she met my Father, there were a lot of RAF pilots who used the base as a training site, and later there would several Aussies who came there as well. Learning the slang and language differences was quite a trip, but, she always had fond memories of the guys who came there. They would tease each other about their language differences and gave each other nicknames. 

I also have an Microsoft Access Mentor who lives in Bendigo, and we are in touch all the time. When he Daughter went to Canada for training in Alpine Rescue, she stopped off at San Diego where I lived at the time and we met up for a while. It was great fun. 

Many of my Technical Beta testing colleagues are also from Australia. What a trip! (grin)  

DISCLOSER 

I have  permanent residency in Australia beside be a US citizens and a citizen of the great Ojibwe nation....LOL...Also my daughter, grand kids an great grand kids live there are most are duel citizens. US and OZ. Some are also citizens of NZ and Samoa...LOL we are world citizens for sure. 

My great grandson is currently serving in the Australian Special Forces...''Who dares, wins''.

You forgot getting pissed = getting drunk!

Ok Kavika...EXPLAIN...what is an ANZAC...?

An Anzac are Australian and New Zealand solders that fought in WWI and II and all other wars/peace keeping etc. It is celebrated in other countries as well...Tonga, Samoa come to mind.

Anzac Day   ( / ˈ æ n z æ k / ) is a national day of remembrance in   Australia   and   New Zealand   that broadly commemorates all Australians and New Zealanders "who served and died in all wars, conflicts, and peacekeeping operations" and "the contribution and suffering of all those who have served". ^{[1] [2]}

Observed on 25 April each year, Anzac Day was originally devised to honour the members of the   Australian and New Zealand Army Corps   (ANZAC) who fought at   Gallipoli   against the   Ottoman Empire   during   World War I . Anzac Day is also observed in the   Cook Islands ,   Niue ,   Pitcairn Islands , and   Tonga , and previously was a national holiday in   Papua New Guinea   and   Samoa . ^{[3] [4]}

...my comment relocated below, so ah'll repeat...what is an ANZAC...?

OOOHhhh...ok.

Your background and history never ceases to amaze me Kavika, which is why I enjoy having you in my circle.  

As a side note I was living in Sydney when the Australia government flew many of the Australia soldiers that fought in the battle of ''Lone Pine'' in Turkey in WWI. This was 1990 and many of course were quite old. Doctors and nurses went with them and they gathered at the battle field and met the old Turkish soldiers that they fought again. The whole nation followed their trip and adventure. I was fortunate that I helped see them off at the airport in Sydney. Our company supplied equipment and support for the trip...It was a real honor to be there and meet some of the vet's.

It was an epic battle and if I remember correctly the casualties were in the 8,000 range for a 4 day battle. Neither side would give an inch.

Thank you Timey...It goes both ways my friend.

...he smiles, 'thanks'...!

It's funny how our daily habits become unconscious behavior, and how it takes being in another culture or country to notice what is unconscious or taken for granted. 

Oh I missed ALOT of them. But thas a good one. I didn't get 'pissed' while I was there, but certainly buzzed. Drinking beer is a national past time. People liiiiive for the weekends...!!! They tend to get this incredulous look on their face if you say you don't wanna beer...and they thought I was from another planet when I ordered MILK with my meal..!!! Apparently nobody does this. Odd....

Coba or Cobra...? Yea...cracked me up when they would refer to large gravel rock as "metal"...how they got to thaa ah don't have'a clue. Fuel is measured in liters and it's close to 3 bucks a liter or close to $10-12 bucks a gallon. Luckily...they don't have to drive great distances to get where they want to go. Housing prices are insane and rent is paid WEEKLY. Paying $500 bucks a week for rent is not uncommon. Housing is so expensive, many people have to rely on inheriting a home in order to get into a place. Due to the cost of material, and the shortage of skilled trade labor and housing availability vs demand...housing is VERY expensive and it's buying a home is rapidly becoming cost prohibitive for the average family.  

You forgot getting pissed = getting drunk!

Yep, I sure did Ed. Sometimes if I write "I'm pissed" it's followed by "and I'm not drunk".

Did you learn what a seppo is?

It was an epic battle and if I remember correctly the casualties were in the 8,000 range for a 4 day battle. Neither side would give an inch.

There was a movie about this back in the 80s or 90s, wasn't there?. Somewhere around the time you helped those ANZAC vets on their return visit there. Was it at Gallipoli? Very bloody uphill trench warfare fighting.

As a historian, you probably know this.

During WWII when 2 of my uncles were busy with their 1903 Springfields, not M1 Garands, at Guadalcanal beginning in August of 1942, to the west the ANZACS were in a smaller battle than Lone Pine, but no less important.

Many note, had the Imperial Japanese forces succeeded in taking the Island they would have a launching point for the invasion of mainland Australia. Much focus is on the Kokoda Track Campaign and The Stand at Isurava in particular. Over a 5 - 6 day period at Isurava the ANZACs were technically noted to have lost the battle, yet that was a decision point for the Japanese to cut their losses and leave.

A "good mate" of mine from Toowoomba lost 5 family members at The Stand.

Here is a good link for reading:

anzacportal.dva.au

There is now an historic visitors area there for folks to walk "the 1,000 steps".

Coba or Cobra...?

Coba.

Yes, they've got their own term for just about everything. Once you hear a new term it is easy to be unsure of what it is. Then when you realize what it is, then it makes sense in it's own way.

Was it at Gallipoli? Very bloody uphill trench warfare fighting.

Yes, it was Gallipoli...One of the great courageous stories came out of that battle. The man and his donkey..John Kirkpatrik, stretcher bearer...en.wikipedia

The Kokoda Track campaign..An amazing bit of Australia history. There is a famous photo and painting in Australia of that battle. A Australia soldier helping his wounded mate across a creek with New Guineans known as the ''Fuzzy Wuzzies'' carrying supplies across the same creek..

I learned what a seppo is when I was in Australia. Derogatory term used by Aussies and Brits to describe Americans. Never heard it used by Kiwis when I was in New Zealand.

Not common knowledge to a lot except to people who study history is that much of the debacle at Gallipoi can be laid at the feet of the British First Lord of The Admiralty at the time, a certain Winston Churchill. The Gallipoli operation was devised by him and was pretty much his brainchild.

That is exactly right doc....Old Winnie really screwed it up.

Yep, rhymes with septic tank.

Sometimes in conversation, someone will refer to someone else as a seppo and I'll give them a reminder.

...WOW

One of the great courageous stories came out of that battle. The man and his donkey..John Kirkpatrik, stretcher bearer..

Here's another good read of John Simpson Kirkpatrick. Some good detail of his story.

anzachouse

Not quite sure how to correctly translate bogan and hooning into American English in this venue.

I came across an example of a bogan hooning.

The fella driving the car would be called a bogan. Doing donuts in a crowded neighbourhood street is an example of hooning. The blue tyre smoke indicates the baby is a boy.

Unfortunately I can't get the vid url, so the slow loading site article url is here:

9news.au

stay away from the "Vegimite". OMG

It looks like axle grease. It smells like axle grease. It feels like axle grease. The logical conclusion is it must taste like axle grease. 

The logical conclusion is it must taste like axle grease.

That suggests that you've tasted axel grease and would be able to make that judgment.  Do you eat axel grease often or just when the hankering strikes?

nope never have but I have never been hit by a speeding bus either but I am sure I wouldn't like the experience. 

That suggests that you've tasted axel grease and would be able to make that judgment.

Gross.

RIIIIIIGHT....? It never got past the nose to actually TASTE it. Nope...no way. Thanks for weighing in on this one PDX. Barring the brainwashed and bias Kiwi from this informal survey...I think we have a unanimous consensus! 

EEEEyup...pretty damn gross...!!! It's an "acquired" taste...Where it's acquired and HOW it's acquired is still a mystery.

Hi Time Lord.....I've never been to New Zealand, but, your great article helps to bring it to life. I enjoyed living in The Town of Warrenton VA for 4 years, and found it a very small, friendly and very safe place to live. Even though it was the county seat, it was very laid back and the people were very outgoing and friendly. At the time I was a Microsoft MVP (Most Valuable Professional), and the only one in town who had any connection to Microsoft. Thus, I was dubbed the Microsoft Lady and that is how most people in town referred to me. (grin)

There I didn't have to lock my doors and had no need for Club I had for my car. I truly miss it.

So I can understand how nice it must have been to find the kind of environment and attitude of the people in New Zealand. I may never get to visit there, but, truly appreciate your sharing your experience in time you were there. (smile)

It's so nice to see you again Miss Raven Wing. 

I'm happy to share my experiences for the vicarious travelers like yourself. I love to see how the rest of the world lives and thinks. Experiences like this helps to shed perspective on what we have or don't have here. It's certainly true that smaller rural communities, were people know their neighbors...tend to be safer communities. I read something recently that said something like..."you know you are in a back water hillbilly town, because it lacks that part of town that you shouldn't go into."

."you know you are in a back water hillbilly town, because it lacks that part of town that you shouldn't go into."

Very nice to see you here again as well. (smile)

Indeed going into a small rural town where everyone knows everyone else is quite pleasant. Having lived in San Diego and Los Angeles areas for most of my adult life, where people tend to be stand-offish from each other, and you need to have bars on the windows and doors of your home, and a Club for your car to deter theft, it was really quite a surprise to find such a town like Warrenton. It was a lot like stepping back into the 50's, except for all the modern gadgets and services. 

Warrenton was not only the Country Seat, but, one of the Hqtrs for the Highway Patrol and the Sheriff's, as well as a location for military presence, with men in back suits and helicopters coming and going. So, on top of the local police, there was a lot of LE presence there, so crime in town was not a problem. Being as my Father was a police officer for many years, as well as a Texas Ranger for several years, I am quite familiar with LE and it was nice to have that level of security. (grin)

And as you said, there was no part of town that people should not go to. And we have a very diverse population in the town. Local events were attended and everyone got along like extended family. I was really great. 

"you know you are in a back water hillbilly town, because it lacks that part of town that you shouldn't go into."

Isn't that because the entire town is "that part of town."

Nope. 

The need to have a 'police state' or a massive law enforcement presence in order to feel "safe" is kinda sucky. I spent some time in Mexico as well. They have military guards in front of the banks, but that didn't necessarily make me feel safe or secure...in fact, it felt rather unnerving. 

in fact, it felt rather unnerving.

Yeah...I think I would be kind of leery of why the need for military guards standing guard outside the bank. Doesn't really relate to feeling safe, more like, how unsafe is it to go in that bank? I can see having Security guard inside the back, as many banks here in the us do, but, military guards? Doesn't sound too safe to me. 

Like the song says, "Walk on by......" 

The fact that Warrenton has such a concentrated amount of local LE is mostly due to it being the County Seat, where having the kind of LE presence is not unusual. That it is really a small town makes it seem over run by LE. Warrenton is in the DC Metro area, so there is also some military activities that goes on there or near there. Some of the adjacent areas were used by the military during the Cold War, so some activities still are on-going. So I guess that is why there is still some military presence there as well. 

The people there don't seem to be upset with the circumstances, it is what it is, and life goes on. 

hummmm...I can understand that.

It was mostly said as a joke but I have passed through small towns in parts of the country which clearly gave me the "don't tarry here" sensation in my spine. 

"don't tarry here" sensation in my spine.

Agreed. I have been in a few myself. It has to do with one's sixth sense defense mode to some degree, as the aura of the environment seems to send vibes that tend to alert us to the sense of it not being a safe area. However, at times, nothing could be further from the truth. 

Example: While traveling with my parents some years ago in their camper, we drove into Chicago on our way to Cleveland Ohio. An area that we first drove into was considered to be an unsafe area, unbeknownst to us being our of towners. However, we did need to stop and get some directions to find the freeway we need to get to Ohio. We were in full lock-down mode and when we stopped at signal lights people would stare at our camper. 

As we drove toward a filling station, our right rear tire burst, and we were stuck. As my Father got out of the truck, people started to gather around. My Mother was in full defense mode. What we did not expect, was some of those who gathered around offered to help my Father change to tire, and also gave us directions to the freeway we needed. The person working in the nearby ice cream parlor offered us kids some ice cream while my Father and others changed the tire. When we were ready to leave, my Father offered those who had helped in with the tire some money for their help, but, they refused it. They all wished us well and sent us off.

Lesson learned: Never judge a book by its cover. 

My wife and I made a trip from Seattle to New London about 10 years ago and stopped for the night at a motel on the Southside. It was a predominantly black neighborhood so we wondered how we'd be regarded there and the fact was we were barely "regarded" at all--i.e., not in any sense that made us uncomfortable--as it should be whatever hue of one's skin wherever one goes in this country. 

There ARE no accidents...

as it should be whatever hue of one's skin wherever one goes in this country.

Agreed. I think that some people have a biased view of how they think others regard them when they are of a different skin color. There are good and bad in all races, the human nature and how we act toward others regardless of skin color is what matters most.

Being Native American, many people would shy away from me. Although I am light skinned, as the Cherokee are more on the oriental side in skin color, they still seemed to have a negative view of me due to my being Native American. So....it depends on how people think I guess.

The people who helped my Father were black, and yet, they did not hesitate to jump in and help the white people in front of them. They never acted in an aggressive or threatening manner. My Father, being a police officer, was trained to engage people in a pleasant and respectful manner, so perhaps they felt he presented no threat to them either. It was a very pleasant and enlightening encounter.  

"There ARE no accidents..."

ummm.....sorry....but, not sure what you are referring to with this. 

Oh...sorry. "There are no accidents"....as in, I believe you were put in this situation to provide you with a different perspective, insight and experience then the one you had 'expected'. Clearly a growth moment...

I believe that things happen in our lives for a reason...they tend move us in the direction we need to go. I believe more often then not...we create and set into motion through our 'choices'...the events that unfold in our lives. Then there is also 'happenstance', and 'coincidence', which I believe is more divine intervention that we label 'good' or 'bad' depending on how close we are to the event.

Ahhh....yes, and I do agree. I am a firm believer gaining knowledge from others through their actions or words. Some people are not aware that even in a casual conversation someone can gain knowledge from them. When I enter into a conversation, debate or discussion, I do so with the expectation of learning something from them. And I am rarely disappointed. Our conversations here in this article have also been enlightening and I have gained something that I did not know before, thus, I am very happy and thankful for your time and sharing your experiences here with us. (smile)

Miss Raven...I love to mix interesting topics and conversation with humor. It makes 'hanging' more enjoyable, particularly when the contributors are on the same page and addressing comments in a respectful and engaging manner. I've mentioned that I'm not a real 'stickler' when it comes to 'staying on topic toward the end...as comments tend to wain. Quite often, some very interesting topics and side conversations crop up. 

For the most part...I'm a pretty laid back moderator. The only time I tend to get puckered is when there is rude, sarcastic, put down comments. It's contagious, hurtful and counter productive to creating an enjoyable interactive environment in the house. I'm certainly pleased you enjoy coming here and commenting, and you are getting something out of the conversation. If nothing else...hopefully a smile.

...mission accomplished.

Warrenton, VA  I know the former police chief of Warrenton, nice guy, highly respected, good cop.  Meet him through model train club

Really!! How interesting. The police station was only a block from where I lived, and I often walked in the area of the station and met many of the local police. And if I ever needed any help with anything, they were always happy to help. I never met the Chief at the time I lived there, but, he must have been a very nice person, the officers I met always talked favorably about him. 

We were driving from my friends house in Wanaka to Queenstown when we passed the world famous, Bra Fence in Cardrona...LOL, don't ask I have no idea why or how this became so famous...

It's much like that bridge in France that has all those locks...but at least they git to 'wish' before they pitch the key into the river. I wonder if there is any 'wishing' that goes on with the bra's. In central Northern California close to the Oregon border there is an unmarked pull off. Centered in this pull off is a 30' dead tree that is FULL of tennis shoes that have been thrown up into the limbs of the tree. Very odd...also in Dargaville NZ in the middle of this small town there was a tree that had been covered with knitting of all different colors and patterns. The coolest thing...

What I've found in my travels abroad and throughout the US is that people who aren't open to diversity and learning about different cultures openly and without censor are incapable of extending common courtesies.  You see this throughout certain pockets in America.  If you don't meet their criteria then you are ostracized.  

America has had a good run but it's time for it to be broken up.  We will not survive this latest attack on morality, common decency and basic common core principals from this Administration and it's supporters.  There doesn't seem to be any line they won't cross or cheer when it's been crossed.

America has had a good run but it's time for it to be broken up.  We will not survive this latest attack on morality, common decency and basic common core principals from this Administration and it's supporters.  There doesn't seem to be any line they won't cross or cheer when it's been crossed.

I disagree, America is strong, the American people are strong and we are ingrained with freedom. I dont think trump will take America down, he may do some long term damage but America will survive.  

This country has a tendency to swing back and forth ideologically and politically. trump will be able to only take us so far to the right and the push back will increase to the point of another change reversing course. Sooner or later. 

Hopefully he doesn't bankrupt the country or end up starting a major war in the meantime. 

I dont think trump will take America down, he may do some long term damage but America will survive.

I agree he can't take America down but his supporters can and are actively working on making the Country similar to countries with regimes.  

With every vulgar or reckless act that he commits that they openly and cheerfully accept they help move the country towards an authoritarian regime.  They have allowed him complete rule without any consequences which has only encouraged him to commit additional unsavory actions.

The President is not the problem.  He is only the conduit to which the problems exist.  The problem is his supporters.

The President is not the problem.  He is only the conduit to which the problems are performed.  The problem is his supporters.

True, however I have always seen trump and his trumpetts as more like a cult than a true political movement. Cults dissipate when their leader is taken down. IMO trump and his trumpetts has a limited run.

I do agree that trump and his followers do want to turn America into a one man lead government, but I think our freedom will TRUMP trump and his dictatorial style eventually.

Most trumpetts appear to be disgruntled Americans searching for answers, when trump is no longer there to provide what they want they will search elsewhere and find a new messiah to follow..

but america will still be here. Hopefully not too bruised, battered and bleeding, bankrupt or in a major war. 

I have always seen trump and his trumpetts as more like a cult than a true political movement. Cults dissipate when their leader is taken down. IMO trump and his trumpetts has a limited run.

Perhaps, but I see it a little differently.  This "cult" started out as the tea party.  It was more or less a way for the extremist to put feelers out in society and see what extreme views and positions got traction and which ones weren't quite ready to be accepted.  

It then graduated into MAGA.  They've been even more successful pushing their "agenda" forward disguised as policies such as immigration, tax cuts, and healthcare "reform" to name a few.

When and if this Administration is voted out I suspect the "movement" will create a new face or front-man or issue but the objective is the same for those who want to look closely.  

I'm not interested in mending the country.   I'm ready for this era's civil war.  

I had a friend many years ago tell me something when Bill Clinton was reelected the second time. "The bad news is that Clinton got reelected. The good news is that he only has eight years to screw things up before the pendulum swings the other way!" The same applies to Trump.

Historically, most civil wars generally involve tremendous bloodshed and the deaths of many innocent men, women, and children. Is that what you are advocating for this country? I think that is way off track and way off topic!

Well since you think this is off topic and it makes you uncomfortable I have deleted my original response and replaced it with this comment.  I know reality can be scary. 

I had a friend many years ago tell me something when Bill Clinton was reelected the second time. "The bad news is that Clinton got reelected. The good news is that he only has eight years to screw things up before the pendulum swings the other way!" The same applies to Trump.

Actually, that's NOT true.  The Clinton's have been invoked constantly into our politics as reasons that some (most) on the right vote the way they vote.   So Bill Clinton's presidency has continued to impact our politics and our Country.   

I've been told that the seeder doesn't like politics on his seeds so I'm not going to post anything more on this subject.

My apologies to the seeder of the article.  

I suspect the "movement" will create a new face or front-man or issue but the objective is the same for those who want to look closely.

I suspect to a degree you are correct, But I can't see all the trumpetts railing behind causes without a charismatic leader. Some yes but they were already doing that anyway with little success. Thankfully I believe there are still many more rational center minded people than far sided radicales from either right of left wing "movements"

Therefore, I still have faith Sanity will prevail in the long term.

If not, well it's been a hell of a ride....lol

and I'll adapt. 

We've always been around.  We were and are the "middle class"....the silent majority!  We are not going anywhere.  We got tired of no one ever listening.  Sure, the undesirables joined in, but they just make noise like the KKK and neo Nazies.  So, we chose Pres. Trump over the same old Obama-Clinton regime.   And, IMO, the Democrats have many undesirables who make a lot of noise.

Happy Trails!

WELCOME MISS PJ...!!!

Not sure who you've been talking to Miss PJ...I really don't have a problem discussing politics. In fact...MY BAD...I was the one who originally jumped topic. I certainly think this topic of our changing politics and national direction is relevant and important to discuss to see and hear different perspectives...thas why we're HERE...riiiiiiight...?????

TL...Time Lord, aka 'Timey' or otherwise referred to as..."the seeder" ...jus doesn't care for troll-like behavior of sarcasm, put downs, name calling, or other provocative behavior or language. It has no place here. 

PLUS...you should know that ah'm NOT a real 'stickler' when it comes to 'staying on topic'...PARTICULARLY toward the end and winding down phase of comments in an article and only a few people are still hanging around and commenting. It's not uncommon for the conversation to begin to divert to related topics...then not so related topics, but maybe close...? Thas ok...some interesting things oft times pop up...I actually enjoy this part...like talking about the Haka for example. It's related to NZ, but not the topic, but thas ok. 

A MORE RELEVANT ARTICLE SEED...

Soon, I will seed an article to address some of the changes I see happening in this country that directly impact our sense of nationalism and national pride, the US culture and how it's defined...our changing sense of history and how "Political Correctness" is re-defining our past and future as a people and as a Nation. 

Please hang in there and we can bring this conversation back in a more appropriate "on topic" venue. Bring tolerance, a respectful attitude, an open mind, wit, logic, and your differing thoughts and ideas to the table and we'll talk and share ideas and perspectives. I'm here to expand my awareness, learn and grow...I hope you are too.  

Whether it is true or not is irrelevant at this point as I was simply repeating what someone else told me many years ago. Believe what you will, as will I. Have a good day.

Whether it is true or not is irrelevant at this point as I was simply repeating what someone else told me many years ago. Believe what you will, as will I. Have a good day.

Well that's a compelling argument.  Yeah, you have a good day too.