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Ex-Gays Fight LGBT Power Play to Outlaw Conversion Therapy

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  heartland-american  •  6 years ago  •  320 comments

Ex-Gays Fight LGBT Power Play to Outlaw Conversion Therapy

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



A group including former gays who benefited from reparative therapy is fighting a California bill that would label such therapy a fraudulent business practice and ban counseling aimed at helping people who are unhappy with their same-sex attraction.

More than 350 people rallied at the state Capitol this week to oppose the proposal, claiming that the legislation unfairly limits people’s options to seek psychological help. The protesters included 30 former gay and transgendered people who spoke at a podium outside the California statehouse against the proposed law.

“I did not want to be gay,” said Christian pastor Jim Domen, who said the therapy helped him to marry his wife and have children. “Please do not take away professional help programs that have helped people like me.”

“This legislation actually takes away rights from those who are questioning their sexuality,” said Ken Williams, co-founder of Equipped to Love. “We don’t want to see an America where the government is controlling how people identify sexually.”

Another demonstrator, pro golfer Kris Olsen denounced the bill for making it illegal for former homosexuals like her to freely seek counseling.

“AB2943 violates my right to choose,” she said. “It is a blatant violation of my first amendment rights and I believe there’s a reason why our Founding Father chose to put these rights in the very first amendment.”

The new legislation would ban “advertising, offering for sale, or selling services constituting sexual orientation change efforts to an individual,” which it would include in its list of “unfair or deceptive acts or practices.”

Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is a licensed clinical psychologist who runs the largest reparative therapy clinic in the world. He told Breitbart News that his clinic uses evidence-based treatment interventions, the same interventions used by other clinics throughout the world, to treat trauma and sexual addictions.

“In the client-therapist relationship, the client is in the driver’s seat,” Nicolosi said. “Politicians have no business telling people their therapy goals are illegal.”

“Thirty years of science has shown us that sexuality is fluid and can change for many people,” Nicolosi told Breitbart.

Dr. Nicolosi said limiting people’s legitimate options for ideological reasons is a textbook case of political overreach.

“Sacramento politicians want to deny the people of California the freedom to find joy in living consistently with their values, including as they relate to their sexuality,” he said.

As a clinical psychologist, Nicolosi said, “I help people resolve the issues that are causing them conflict, affirm them in their journey, and help them achieve their goals— not the politician’s goals!”

There are numerous documented cases of persons with same-sex attraction who have been helped by conversion therapy.

In 1997, the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) conducted a survey of 882 patients who underwent reparative therapy seeking to modify their sexual orientation.

Nearly half of the patients (47 percent) experienced a significant change in their sexual attraction. Among patients who self-identified as “exclusively homosexual” before treatment, 18 percent self-identified as exclusively heterosexual following therapy, while 17 percent identified as almost entirely heterosexual and 12 percent as more heterosexual than homosexual.

The bigger question is not what percentage of patients are helped by reparative therapy, but why the state would seek to legislate what sort of therapy people are allowed to seek.

There is only one answer, and it is self-evident. The LGBT lobby abhors having the homosexual inclination treated as a pathology and wants to prevent anyone from doing so, by coercion if necessary. The suggestion that people with same-sex attraction can be helped by therapy to modify their sexual orientation is anathema to the LGBT movement.

The current power play is reminiscent of a similar political move in 1973 that eliminated homosexuality from official lists of psychological disorders not because of any scientific discovery that changed the opinion of the medical profession, but because of political pressure from gay-rights activists to reclassify homosexuality as “normal.”


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XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1  seeder  XXJefferson51    6 years ago

A group including former gays who benefited from reparative therapy is fighting a California bill that would label such therapy a fraudulent business practice and ban counseling aimed at helping people who are unhappy with their same-sex attraction.   http://vidolamerica.org/2018/06/williams-ex-gays-fight-lgbt-power-play-to-outlaw-conversion-therapy/

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
1.1  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1    6 years ago

There is no such thing as ex-gay. These people are deluding themselves into thinking that you can change your sexual orientation. They merely went back in the closet. 

Changing my mind led me to recommend closing Exodus International two years ago almost to this very day. Repenting led me to apologize for everything I could think of to a group of people who needed someone, anyone who’d ever been in leadership to apologize. Knowing the truth — that God is love and full of grace –set me free.

So, while the battles rage on — because they always do — I know there are many Christians who will choose to embrace the change, pray for deeper understanding, focus on the God who challenges us to be like him: full of love and anxious for nothing. There will be Christians who, like Leslie and me, will see this as a wonderful opportunity to do nothing more than fulfill God’s laws: to love him and love people.

.

The American Psychological Association expressed strong support for President Obama’s call for a society that accepts young people in their gender and sexual development, rather than rejecting them, labeling them as bad, or suggesting that they should change. APA has previously voiced its concerns about the scientific and ethical basis of efforts to change sexual orientation and about the way the promotion of such efforts by some individuals and organizations contributes to the social stigma that harms gender and sexual minorities.

“So-called reparative therapies are aimed at ‘fixing’ something that is not a mental illness and therefore does not require therapy. There is insufficient scientific evidence that they work, and they have the potential to harm the client,” said APA 2015 President Barry S. Anton, PhD. “APA has and will continue to call on mental health professionals to work to reduce misunderstanding about and prejudice toward gay and transgender people.”

A 2009 APA Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Response to Sexual Orientation  (PDF, 834KB) concluded that mental health professionals should avoid telling clients that they can change their sexual orientation due to a lack of evidence that such change is possible and the potential for such efforts to harm the patient’s mental health.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.1.1  TᵢG  replied to  epistte @1.1    6 years ago
These people are deluding themselves into thinking that you can change your sexual orientation. They merely went back in the closet.

Agreed.   I can certainly see a pan-sexual person flipping around due to his/her broad range, but someone who is predominantly (or exclusively) homosexual is not going to be able to switch any easier than a heterosexual.   I would love to hear how a heterosexual male proposes how he could switch to homosexuality if 'he wanted to'.   Nobody ever takes that challenge yet they continue with this nonsense that homosexuals can choose to be straight.   Critical thinking is a good thing.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
1.1.2  epistte  replied to  TᵢG @1.1.1    6 years ago
Nobody ever takes that challenge yet they continue with this nonsense that homosexuals can choose to be straight.

A brain scan while these supposedly cured people look at gay images will prove that they aren't cured because the parts of their brain will continue to light up when they see images of gay men. 

Instead of trying to convert them, these men need psychotherapy to help them overcome the cult behavior of religious belief as well as self-acceptance, before they end up dead by suicide when they realize that they cannot change their orientation.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1.1.3  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @1.1.1    6 years ago

This is an issue between a given person and God.  A repentant person can gain the victory over any sin and temptation out there. His power is greater than any man saying one can’t change or once gay always gay.  It is pure human cruelty and bigotry to tell a person that they can’t change even if they want to or to deny they were ever gay in the first place if they do make the change.  When Paul writes a list of sins that will keep one out of Heaven in Corinthians he mentioned being a practicing homosexual as one of them, then he says to them that many of them once were all of those things including gay but no longer were having been changed by grace. Taking away the option to change is both a free speech and a free excercise of religious liberty issue.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.1.4  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.3    6 years ago
It is pure human cruelty and bigotry to tell a person that they can’t change even if they want to or to deny they were ever gay in the first place if they do make the change.

To me it is cruel to try to force someone to change their sexual orientation.   It is also cruel to disparage all those whose sexual orientation is not heterosexual.      

Now, on your straw man, if someone wants to go through 'gay therapy' that is their choice.   So keep your straw man.   However, I will note that societal pressures to be 'straight' will encourage some homosexual individuals to try to conform and go through 'gay therapy'.   Do you consider that a good thing?

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
1.1.5  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.3    6 years ago
raudlent When Paul writes a list of sins that will keep one out of Heaven in Corinthians he mentioned being a practicing homosexual as one of them, then he says to them that many of them once were all of those things including gay but no longer were having been changed by grace. Taking away the option to change is both a free speech and a free excercise of religious liberty issue.

 God cannot manage to prove that he exists, so how does he plan to change someone's sexual orientation?

The government has the responsibility to protect vulnerable people from snake oil slaseman, especially when they wrap their quackery in relgious belief.  There is no evidence that sexual orientation can be changed so these people cannot kill people via dangerous methods without suffering civil repercussions. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
1.1.6  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.3    6 years ago

God is irrelevant to the issue as well as to any such "therapy."  It's the therapy itself that is questionable. Actually,  there is no question about it: Conversation therapy is a sham.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
1.1.7  Skrekk  replied to  TᵢG @1.1.1    6 years ago
I would love to hear how a heterosexual male proposes how he could switch to homosexuality if 'he wanted to'.

Nor do these quacks even offer that service, thus revealing that their true agenda is anti-gay.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.8  Tessylo  replied to  epistte @1.1    6 years ago
'There is no such thing as ex-gay. These people are deluding themselves into thinking that you can change your sexual orientation. They merely went back in the closet.'

BINGO!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.9  Tessylo  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.3    6 years ago
'This is an issue between a given person and God.  A repentant person can gain the victory over any sin and temptation out there.'
Being gay is not a sin.  
I remember my best friend who was gay and came out to his pastor and his pastor told him "you're going to burn in hell"
He committed suicide years later - stepped in front of a subway train - due to severe depression.  He was even getting shock treatments for his depression.  Unfortunately they didn't work.  
 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.10  devangelical  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.3    6 years ago

What sin did you gain victory over?

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
1.1.11  epistte  replied to  devangelical @1.1.10    6 years ago
What sin did you gain victory over?

Some people have claimed that the forbidden fruit that Eve ate represented wisdom. Apparently, their god wants to keep everyone stupid and easy to control. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.12  devangelical  replied to  epistte @1.1.11    6 years ago

god hit pay dirt with most conservative xtians then.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
1.1.13  Skrekk  replied to  epistte @1.1.11    6 years ago
Some people have claimed that the forbidden fruit that Eve ate represented wisdom.

You'd think that with something so central to their mythology that the Abrahamic superstitions would have decided which metaphorical fruit they need to avoid.....but instead various sects say that it was apple, fig, grape, pomegranate, tamarind, etc.

To be on the safe side perhaps Christians need to avoid all fruit including tomatoes?

.

Apparently, their god wants to keep everyone stupid and easy to control.

That does seem to be the core operative principle along with submission to the whims of an authoritarian with a very fragile ego.    No wonder so many evangelicals support Trump.   Perhaps they need to rename their sect "Submission" ?

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
1.1.14  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.3    6 years ago
This is an issue between a given person and God. A repentant person can gain the victory over any sin and temptation out there.

Then WTF would they need 'phycological' counseling? That would be religious counseling at NO CHARGE right? RIGHT? 

Taking away the option to change is both a free speech and a free excercise of religious liberty issue.

Exactly where the hell do you get the ridiculous idea that those who use free speech also get to charge for it as a business service? Oh and BTFW, one doesn't CHARGE for exercising their religious beliefs either. 

You're failing miserably as a spokesman for this cause, though considering your other failed attempts at advocacy, it' not surprising. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.15  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.3    6 years ago

. . . .

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
1.2  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1    6 years ago

Reparative therapy is fraudulent and quack medicine, and it can cause actual harm. It's good if such practices are outlawed, as they should be.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.3  devangelical  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1    6 years ago

Those ex-gay thumpers should make the fake xtian mens weekend religious retreats a lot more interesting as bonding events.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4  devangelical  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1    6 years ago

Teavangelicals should start that therapy in-house, and treat all the young boys that have been sodomized in the church basement.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.5  Tessylo  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1    6 years ago
'A group including former gays who benefited from reparative therapy is fighting a California bill that would label such therapy a fraudulent business practice and ban counseling aimed at helping people who are unhappy with their same-sex attraction.   )

It is fraudulent and harmful.  Marcus Bachman (Michelle batshit crazy Bachman is his beard) was a proponent of gay conversion therapy.  I'm sure he was on his knees daily with his 'clients' at his clinic.  

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2  devangelical    6 years ago

Great idea. I'm thinking of opening a clinic for thumpers that have previously had to have a bible removed their ass during pursuit of the great commission. If I could get a price point for that pray the gay away conversion therapy, I'll know what to charge thumpers.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
2.1  epistte  replied to  devangelical @2    6 years ago

The world would be a much better place if we could cure people of both religious belief and ignorance.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  epistte @2.1    6 years ago

The 2nd coming is the cure that you seek.  Greatly enhanced intelligence and wisdom and no more formal religion for all eternity.  

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
2.1.2  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.1    6 years ago
Greatly enhanced intelligence and wisdom and no more formal religion for all eternity.

The second coming cannot happen because the first coming never did.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
2.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.1    6 years ago

The 2nd coming is just a silly superstition. The only thing it or such religious nonsense "cures" is logical and rational thinking.  

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
2.1.4  Skrekk  replied to  epistte @2.1.2    6 years ago
The second coming cannot happen because the first coming never did.

That's because you're a girl and he's a selfish oaf.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
2.1.5  epistte  replied to  Skrekk @2.1.4    6 years ago
That's because you're a girl and he's a selfish oaf.

Whatever........

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.6  devangelical  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.1    6 years ago
The 2nd coming is the cure that you seek.

Set the wayback machine to the 70's for me. Get me some windowpane acid and the 3rd and 4th is possible too.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
2.1.7  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.1    6 years ago
The 2nd coming is the cure that you seek.

The one that Paul insisted was eminent? 

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
3  Skrekk    6 years ago

Conversion Quackery is already banned in California for minors but the latest bill in CA extends the ban to also protect adults from this harmful and fraudulent practice.     New Jersey also treats it as fraud.    So far I think 12 or 13 states have these bans, and Canada is about to ban it entirely even when religious sects do it.    Manitoba, Ontario and Vancouver already ban it.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4  sandy-2021492    6 years ago

"Treatments" shown to be ineffective and often harmful are banned?!

Next think you know, they won't let doctors prescribe Thalidomide for morning sickness!

What is this world coming to?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
5  seeder  XXJefferson51    6 years ago

Dr. Robert Spitzer, a psychiatry professor at Columbia University, said he began his study as a skeptic — believing, as major mental health organizations do, that sexual orientation cannot be changed, and attempts to do so can even cause harm.

But Spitzer's study, which has not yet been published or reviewed, seems to indicate otherwise. Spitzer says he spoke to 143 men and 57 women who say they changed their orientation from gay to straight, and concluded that 66 percent of the men and 44 percent of women reached what he called good heterosexual functioning — a sustained, loving heterosexual relationship within the past year and getting enough emotional satisfaction to rate at least a seven on a 10-point scale.

He said those who changed their orientation had satisfying heterosexual sex at least monthly and never or rarely thought of someone of the same sex during intercourse.

He also found that 89 percent of men and 95 percent of women were bothered not at all or only slightly by unwanted homosexual feelings. However, only 11 percent of men and 37 percent of women reported a complete absence of homosexual indicators.

"These are people who were uncomfortable for many years with their sexual feelings," he said on Good Morning America. But they managed to change those feelings, he added.

The study reopens the debate over "reparative therapy," or treatment to change sexual preference. Spitzer argues that highly motivated gays can in fact change that preference — with a lot of effort.

New Study, Old Debate.  https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Sex/story?id=117465&page=1

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
5.1  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @5    6 years ago
Dr. Robert Spitzer, a psychiatry professor at Columbia University,

You left out half of the information. He withdrew that paper before his death. 

The APA issued an official disavowal of Spitzer's paper, noting that it had not been peer reviewed and stating, "There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation." [24] Two years later, was published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior.

Two thirds of the reviews were critical, and the publication decision sparked controversy, with one member of the publication's supporting organization resigning in protest. [25] The paper has been criticized for its sampling methods and criteria for success. [26]

In a 2005 interview, Spitzer stated, "Many colleagues were outraged" following the publication of the study. Spitzer added, "Within the gay community, there was initially tremendous anger and feeling that I had betrayed them." When asked whether he would consider a follow-up study, Spitzer said no and added that he felt "a little battle fatigue." [27] While Spitzer has said that he has no way of knowing whether the study participants were being honest, [21] he has also indicated that he believed that the interviewees were being candid with him. [27]

In a 2012 interview, Spitzer said he asked to retract the study and stated that he agreed with its critics: [28]

"In retrospect, I have to admit I think the critiques are largely correct," he said. "The findings can be considered evidence for what those who have undergone ex-gay therapy say about it, but nothing more." He said he spoke with the editor of the Archives of Sexual Behavior about writing a retraction, but the editor declined. (Repeated attempts to contact the journal went unanswered.)

In a letter to Kenneth J Zucker , editor of Journal of Sexual Behavior , Spitzer wrote:

"Several months ago I told you that because of my revised view of my 2001 study of reparative therapy changing sexual orientation, I was considering writing something that would acknowledge that I now judged the major critiques of the study as largely correct. After discussing my revised view of the study with Gabriel Arana, a reporter for American Prospect', and with Malcolm Ritter, an Associated Press science writer, I decided that I had to make public my current thinking about the study. Here it is.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
5.1.1  Gordy327  replied to  epistte @5.1    6 years ago

Of course he left out half the information, because it proves him wrong and exposes his bias against gays. Willfully omitting such an important piece of information is also dishonest and as good as lying. But then, I wouldn't expect anything else or anything better from him.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
5.1.2  epistte  replied to  Gordy327 @5.1.1    6 years ago

I'm expecting HA to mention disgraced Dr. John McHugh and maybe John Money tomorrow. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
5.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  epistte @5.1.2    6 years ago

I wouldn't be surprised.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Guide
5.1.4  Raven Wing  replied to  epistte @5.1.2    6 years ago
I'm expecting HA to mention disgraced Dr. John McHugh and maybe John Money tomorrow

Well now that should be fun.  eek

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Guide
5.1.5  Raven Wing  replied to  Gordy327 @5.1.1    6 years ago
But then, I wouldn't expect anything else or anything better from him.

Just look at the role model he has chosen. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
5.1.6  Gordy327  replied to  epistte @5.1.2    6 years ago

That is like mentioning  David Barton when discussing American history.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.1.7  Trout Giggles  replied to  epistte @5.1    6 years ago

When are certain people ever going to learn that they are simply no match for you intellectually.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
5.1.8  epistte  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.1.7    6 years ago
When are certain people ever going to learn that they are simply no match for you intellectually.

 I'm not that smart but poking holes in HA's wild claims is fun in a guilty pleasure sort of way. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.1.9  devangelical  replied to  epistte @5.1    6 years ago

Dr. Bob N. Spitzer?

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Guide
6  Hal A. Lujah    6 years ago

In other ludicrous news, a group of ex black people is fighting to keep confederate statues across the nation.

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
Sophomore Silent
7  Phoenyx13    6 years ago

Dr. Robert Spitzer, a psychiatry professor at Columbia University, said he began his study as a skeptic — believing, as major mental health organizations do, that sexual orientation cannot be changed, and attempts to do so can even cause harm.

But Spitzer's study, which has not yet been published or reviewed, seems to indicate otherwise. Spitzer says he spoke to 143 men and 57 women who say they changed their orientation from gay to straight, and concluded that 66 percent of the men and 44 percent of women reached what he called good heterosexual functioning — a sustained, loving heterosexual relationship within the past year and getting enough emotional satisfaction to rate at least a seven on a 10-point scale.

so it states that we don't have people who have changed their sexual orientation - they are just " heterosexual functioning " and pretending to be heterosexual, right Heartland American ? if they truly changed their sexual orientation then they would just be "heterosexual" and not "heterosexual functioning" , correct ?

of course 2 people of the opposite gender who are homosexual can have lasting relationships with enough emotional satisfaction to rate at least a 7 on a 10-point scale - they are called friendships . if you have a relationship with someone who is the same gender as you are and you get enough emotional satisfaction to rate at least a 7 out of 10 - does that make you a homosexual or do you just have a friendship with someone of the same gender, Heartland American ?

He said those who changed their orientation had satisfying heterosexual sex at least monthly and never or rarely thought of someone of the same sex during intercourse.

wait.. so these " heterosexual functioning " people still need to fantasize about the same gender to achieve sexual satisfaction and you think they " changed " their sexual orientation ??

The study reopens the debate over "reparative therapy," or treatment to change sexual preference. Spitzer argues that highly motivated gays can in fact change that preference — with a lot of effort.

ah yes.. let's talk about that

anyone remember John Paulk ? he was a leader in the Christian "ex-gay" movement , thought he was " cured " and had " changed " his sexual orientation , even married a woman to prove it ... and today he's homosexual still

or we could talk about Exodus International - a leading Christian reparative therapy organization to "change" people's sexual orientations to heterosexual .... and how they closed and apologized to the world because they realized they were wrong ...

or we could talk about one of the founding members of Exodus International - Michael Bussee - he was convinced that God helped him change his sexual orientation and that through God he became heterosexual and was happy married to a woman ........ until he fell in love with a guy and they divorced their wives so they could be together .. OOOOPS ! I guess God isn't that powerful after all, huh Heartland American ?

and yet you want to subject innocent people to these "treatments" so you can control their lives and make them worship and believe as you do, isn't that right Heartland American ?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.1  Tessylo  replied to  Phoenyx13 @7    6 years ago
'wait.. so these "heterosexual functioning" people still need to fantasize about the same gender to achieve sexual satisfaction and you think they "changed" their sexual orientation ??'
'The study reopens the debate over "reparative therapy," or treatment to change sexual preference. Spitzer argues that highly motivated gays can in fact change that preference — with a lot of effort.'
With a lot of effort which means denying your true nature.  
Sounds like part of gay conversion therapy - which is harmful. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
8  devangelical    6 years ago

It sure is interesting that so many thumpers are obsessed with sodomy.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
8.1  Gordy327  replied to  devangelical @8    6 years ago

Indeed. And they act like there's something wrong with it. As if it is the worse thing ever. They really need to lighten up.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @8    6 years ago
'It sure is interesting that so many thumpers are obsessed with sodomy.'

Lots of straight people practice sodomy.  Not all gay men practice sodomy either.   No wonder the 'thumpers' are always talking about butt hurt.  Hmmmmmmmm

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
9  seeder  XXJefferson51    6 years ago

Part of the Leaving Homosexuality Series
Leaving Homosexuality
The Right to Counseling for Unwanted Same-Sex Attractions
What Do We Mean When We Talk About Change from Homosexuality?
De-Sexualizing The Deeper Needs of Homosexuality
God is Patient, Be Patient with Yourself as You Leave Homosexuality
Growth Into Manhood: Resuming the Journey
Homosexuality: Real Hope and Real Change
Resources for Men and Women with Unwanted Homosexuality
Series About:
Sexuality
(Advisory – Adult subject matter at some links. Links to websites not produced by Focus on the Family are for informational purposes only and do not constitute an endorsement of the sites’ contents.)

"We are here. We are here. We are here." — Dr. Seuss, Horton Hears a Who

"Accordingly, the greatest need you and I have – the greatest need of collective humanity – is renovation of our heart. That spiritual place within us from which outlook, choices, and actions come has been formed by a world away from God. Now it must be transformed." Dallas Willard, Renovation of the Heart

Dr. Oz ran an episode of his television program where he interviewed Christopher Doyle and Rich Wyler about coming out of homosexuality. Both of these men have gone on to help others with unwanted same-sex attractions. Dr. Julie Harren-Hamilton, who works with clients with unwanted homosexual feelings and behaviors and is a former president of the National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), was also featured on the program.

Of course, the show set off activist groups like the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) and the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD). Such organizations often promote ideologies and resources that marginalize, or even ridicule, those with a Christian worldview. A recent GLAAD initiative even fights against the free speech of people who believe sexual expression is designed for a relationship between a man and a woman in a marriage relationship, trying to keep that truth out of the public forum and maligning those who disagree with them.

It shouldn’t surprise Christians that people leave homosexuality. Look throughout Scripture and history and you find people who encounter and follow Jesus Christ and have their lives transformed in the process. This is the message of the Gospel: Although we are made in the image of God, our lives are desperately marred by sin; Jesus came to earth to teach and model what life without sin looks like; He also came to die and pay the cost of our sin, bringing forgiveness and grace; and His resurrection, ascent and gift of the Holy Spirit bring healing and empowerment.

Homosexual behavior is just one of many sins God forgives and brings people out of. Despite the attempts of different folks to shut down this life-changing message, I keep running across people who have come out of homosexuality — whether in person or by reading their stories. It reminds me of the “Whos” from Dr. Seuss’ book, Horton Hears a Who: each story is another individual calling out, “We are here. We are here. We are here.”

Although there are some similarities in the stories, each is different and unique in how God brings healing and transformation. Some people move into marriage, some remain single and chaste. Some deal with residual same-sex sexual attractions, while others don’t. Here are just a few of these stories; I hope they encourage you — as they have https://www.focusonthefamily.com/socialissues/sexuality/leaving-homosexuality/homosexuality-real-hope-and-real-changeme — with the truth of God’s transforming power.  

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
Sophomore Silent
9.1  Phoenyx13  replied to  XXJefferson51 @9    6 years ago
Dr. Oz ran an episode of his television program where he interviewed Christopher Doyle and Rich Wyler about coming out of homosexuality. Both of these men have gone on to help others with unwanted same-sex attractions. Dr. Julie Harren-Hamilton, who works with clients with unwanted homosexual feelings and behaviors and is a former president of the National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), was also featured on the program.

oh.. the same guys from the JONAH trial ?

What these JONAH clients experienced is at the heart of the case. They argue that these treatments were violating — that they were unfounded therapeutic practices. Doyle proceeded to defend one of these questionable methods, an exercise in which JONAH therapist Alan Downing asked plaintiff Benjamin Unger to begin stripping while staring at himself in front of a mirror. Testifying last week, Unger described how Downing stood behind him, close enough that he could feel his breathing on his neck, and put his hand on his shoulder. After taking off his shirt and undershirt, Unger explained, “Then I was told to look at my body, feel my masculinity and then I was told to go a step further which is to take my pants off.” Unger refused to take that step and said he “felt violated” by the experience.

from: 

or how about :

Unger and all the people in that Jersey City, New Jersey, courtroom were not shocked by what they were seeing, but they were clearly perplexed. In the middle of one notebook page, Unger’s therapist, Alan Downing, had drawn a stick figure with a bulging gluteus maximus, annotated with truncated phrases—“butt = I am cute,” “play with me” and “fluffy butt.” Below the stick figure, he had written, “Explored his attraction to male butts. Could be dominance, vulnerability, innocence, connection.”

Downing seemed obsessed with Unger’s sexual proclivities during their sessions. One of his notes included a matrix of all the men Unger found attractive, paired with detailed notes about their physical characteristics. “Smooth skinned, no facial, attracted to buttocks,” Downing wrote next to one man’s name.

Later, in his office, Downing would ask Unger to strip naked. He would frolic in a field, naked too, with people he was supposed to be “healing.” He would ask other men to hold each other in darkened rooms. It was all part of the therapy, practiced on tens of thousands of young men in the U.S. and abroad, by a wide network of “life coaches” like Downing.

and Wyler joined in !!:

Wyler began organizing weekend programs in 2002. Downing attended the first one that year, while he was in ex-gay therapy with David Matheson, founder of The Center for Gender Wholeness, a Mormon conversion therapy group that had an office in JONAH’s building in Jersey City. Downing told the court he’d “basically resolved” his feelings toward men after less than a year of therapy, and has been staffing Wyler’s weekends ever since. He also had a hand in crafting their highly detailed scripts that dictated nearly every line of dialogue between staffers, who played various roles on the weekends, which were reminiscent of elaborate stage dramas. He and Goldberg routinely sent JONAH’s clients to Wyler’s weekends.

For many years, the retreats were a deeply hidden secret—because that’s the way Wyler and JONAH wanted it. For the “advanced” weekend, called “Journey Beyond,” participants signed nondisclosure agreements stipulating $5,000 in damages if they ever spoke about what happened there. When JONAH was on trial, Wyler attempted to exclude information about Journey Beyond on the basis of trade secret law, but the judge shot him down, and unsealed testimony from Jonathan Hoffman—a star witness for JONAH, a “success story” they held up as validation of their methodology. In it, Hoffman described a nude “rebirthing” ceremony.

here's a " ceremony " from those retreats:

In another Journey Into Manhood scenario, participants are blindfolded while facilitators bounce basketballs around them in a crude reenactment of grade school gym class, while shouting scripted epithets such as, “Catch the ball next time or I’ll shove it up your ass” and “Hey, guys, let’s get that little queer in the shower.” For another exercise, called “Facing the Feminine,” the floor is littered with “feminine objects,” like a wooden spoon, an apron and a tampon. Participants are blindfolded while counselors shout "Don't touch your penis, it's dirty!" or "I was really hoping you would be born a girl!" or "Can't get it up!" and "You're not the man I thought I married!”

Toward the end of the weekend, participants are emotionally raw, Levin remembers. That’s when cuddling begins.

Spirit Guide [a counselor]: Can you connect to that boy inside you now?

Jack : Yes.

Spirit Guide : Would that little boy like to be touched or held?

Jack : Yes.

Jack and the Spirit Guide then cradle each other on the floor, and the lights go down. Music comes on: Spiritual “life coach” and singer Shaina Noll’s saccharine rendition of “ How Could Anyone .” How could anyone ever tell you that you were anything less than beautiful?/How could anyone ever tell you you were less than whole?

Eventually, all the men are on the floor, staffers cradling participants. Unger remembers staffers whispering “I love you,” “you’re beautiful,” and other affectionate phrases during the cradling—which Downing calls “healthy touch"—as “How Could Anyone” played over and over.

read more into it: 

yea... sounds very " heterosexual " doesn't it Heartland American ? Can you tell everyone where "God" enters into this ? is it before or after the cradling and affectionate whispering of sweet nothings into the guys ears ?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
9.1.1  devangelical  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9.1    6 years ago

“Then I was told to look at my body, feel my masculinity and then I was told to go a step further which is to take my pants off.”

Right after the check for therapy cleared.

participants signed nondisclosure agreements stipulating $5,000 in damages if they ever spoke about what happened there

Can't let those kind of trade secrets out.

“Hey, guys, let’s get that little queer in the shower.”

The thumper motivation for therapy in the first place.

"Don't touch your penis, it's dirty!

Guess who has all the clean hands.

Toward the end of the weekend, participants are emotionally raw, Levin remembers. That’s when cuddling begins.

"officially"

Eventually, all the men are on the floor, staffers cradling participants. Unger remembers staffers whispering “I love you,” “you’re beautiful,” and other affectionate phrases during the cradling—which Downing calls “healthy touch"

After lunch, the hookers arrive for the hetero re-certification ritual and then later the graduation ceremony of the patients takes place.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
9.1.2  Skrekk  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9.1    6 years ago
the National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), was also featured on the program.

Joseph Nicolosi the founder and president of NARTH recently went to meet his maker.....apparently they hooked up on Grindr.

Not coincidentally one of the co-founders of NARTH is George "Rent Boy" Rekers.    Seems like all these "conversion therapy" cults are founded and run by very troubled gay men.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
9.2  devangelical  replied to  XXJefferson51 @9    6 years ago

Mary Magdalene transformed Jesus, and what did she get in return? Photo shopped out of the last supper, her gospel tossed by a self-righteous bible editor, and her and JC's family genealogy destroyed by thumpers when they torched the library at Alexandria in order to accommodate the first of many bible revisions. Maybe some thumpers should mind their own business and focus on their own fucking families for a change.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
9.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  XXJefferson51 @9    6 years ago
residual same-sex sexual attractions

aka "being gay". Conversion therapy doesn't "transform" you, it seeks to wrap chains around a persons emotions, all to satisfy the religious bigots who can't accept friends or family who happen to be gay. There would be no real negatives to being gay if it weren't for the pain and suffering inflicted upon them by bigots. They wouldn't have higher suicide rates if they were simply accepted as any other law abiding, tax paying American citizen. Instead, many religious believe it's okay to force your will upon others, discriminate, hate, sneer, fire and harass those in the LGTBQ community causing financial hardship, family rifts, depression and sadly, higher suicide rates. I suppose "do unto others as you would have done to you" doesn't apply because the religious think of gay people as inferior.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
9.3.1  devangelical  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @9.3    6 years ago

The down line effects of rightwing bigotry combined with religious stupidity took out most of my gay friends in the 80's and 90's. I really miss some of those guys. They were hilarious to hang out with and truly opened my eyes and broadened my horizons. Which is a lot more than I can say about the some of the thumpers I've run across in my life.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
11  MrFrost    6 years ago

Seems weird that God would create so many gay people if he hates them so much. Weird, very weird. 

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
11.1  epistte  replied to  MrFrost @11    6 years ago
Seems weird that God would create so many gay people if he hates them so much. Weird, very weird.

According to religious conservatives, only part of us were created in God's image. The other half were created in his apparently closeted self-image. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  epistte @11.1    6 years ago

There are many sins and temptations to engage in them.  God didn’t create it.  It is the manifestation of a rebellion against Him and his kingdom and law.  Homosexuality is but one such manifestation of sin.   There is no sin that can’t be overcome and no behavior that can’t be changed.  

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
11.1.2  lennylynx  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.1    6 years ago

Temptations?  So, you are tempted to have gay sex but resist it??  I'm not, and it's not because I'm right with God or anything, it's because I'm not gay.  Gay guys are not tempted by women but are by men because they're gay!  Simple. What do you want gays to do, never fall in love, never have sex, because it's a 'sin?'  Live and let live HA, there's not nearly enough love in this world, stop pissing on the love and happiness that others may find simply because they find it in a slightly different way than you do.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
11.1.3  Skrekk  replied to  lennylynx @11.1.2    6 years ago
Temptations?  So, you are tempted to have gay sex but resist it??

No doubt that's the correct diagnosis in his case.    It seems that all of these anti-gay freaks are in denial about why they're attracted to the same sex.

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
Sophomore Silent
11.1.4  Phoenyx13  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.1    6 years ago
It is the manifestation of a rebellion against Him and his kingdom and law.

and yet since your God (supposedly) created everything - that means he is responsible for creating sin as well

no behavior that can’t be changed. 

this comment highlights an extreme ignorance on the topic of sexual orientation since it is not just a "behavior", but it's not surprising this ignorance exists with the many of the religious

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
11.1.5  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.1    6 years ago
There are many sins and temptations to engage in them.  God didn’t create it.  It is the manifestation of a rebellion against Him and his kingdom and law.

God created everything.   Is God omnipotent?   Is God omniscient?   How is it that an omniscient God creates Adam and Eve and is surprised when they disobey Him?   Apparently you must believe that God is not fully omniscient - that He really does not know everything or that God is not fully omnipotent - that He really could not create creatures who would follow His rules.

Something has to give.   Either God is not nearly as omnipotent and omniscient as most religious people believe or God set Adam and Eve up to fail.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
11.1.6  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.1    6 years ago
There are many sins and temptations to engage in them.

Logically God also had to create sin if you believe that he is omnipotent and he created the universe.  If God did create the universe and he is omnipotent, then who created sin and why didn't God stop them? It is a logical conundrum for you to believe that God is omnipotent, but only part of the time.

Unless you don't know what omnipotent means. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.2  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  MrFrost @11    6 years ago

God did not create anyone gay.  He created us perfect and in His image.  He created one man and one woman and told them to go forth and multiply.  Adam and Eve were the first marriage.  Homosexuality did not happen until sin was introduced into the world.  It is a sin, an abomination before God, and a perversion of the intended one man one woman family model God created.  

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
11.2.1  Skrekk  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.2    6 years ago
God did not create anyone gay.

I don't think there's any major Christian superstition which makes that claim today.    Even the RCC, LDS and Southern Baptists now all admit that sexual orientation is innate and recognize that efforts to change it are harmful and ineffective.    You must belong to one of the smaller and more isolated superstitious sects.   Which one is it?    Or are you afraid to say?

.

He created one man and one woman and told them to go forth and multiply.  

If I understand your mythology correctly the claim is that your sky fairy made a transgendered clone from some dude's rib and then told Adam and Yves to have sex, right?    That sounds like an endorsement of intimate same-sex relationships, no doubt rooted in all men being made in the image of your sky fairy.    That means your sky fairy has a penis and a belly button.

.

Adam and Eve were the first marriage.

Sorry but your OT mythology never mentions that "Adam and Eve" were married, they merely had sex with one another and then had sex with their kids.    Nor was there any state in existence to give legal meaning to a marriage.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
11.2.2  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.2    6 years ago
God did not create anyone gay. He created us perfect and in His image. He created one man and one woman and told them to go forth and multiply. Adam and Eve were the first marriage. Homosexuality did not happen until sin was introduced into the world. It is a sin, an abomination before God, and a perversion of the intended one man one woman family model God created.

That's nice. prove it!

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
11.2.3  devangelical  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.2    6 years ago

He created one man and one woman and told them to go forth and multiply. Adam and Eve were the first marriage.

there are dangerous side effects of any sexual behavior outside of one man one woman marriage where both are complete virgins when married and never cheat on each other afterward.

Where did Cain find his wife?

 
 
 
TruettCollins
Freshman Silent
11.2.4  TruettCollins  replied to  devangelical @11.2.3    6 years ago

First show me in scripture where it states that Adam and Eve were the only humans created, or only the first....

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
11.2.5  TᵢG  replied to  TruettCollins @11.2.4    6 years ago

If God created other human beings (i.e. not progeny of Adam and Eve) then these created human beings would have been pure - free of sin - as were Adam and Eve when created.   So would you argue that God created more pure human beings only to have them mate with the 'sinful' blood of Adam and Eve's descendants?   Seems like the beginning of yet another long and twisted path of convoluted logic.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
11.2.6  epistte  replied to  TruettCollins @11.2.4    6 years ago
First show me in scripture where it states that Adam and Eve were the only humans created, or only the first....

JFCoaS!

Genesis 26. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
11.2.7  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.2    6 years ago
God did not create anyone gay.

Odd that you know so much about the grandest possible entity.   Or are you making this claim because of what someone told you?   That is, are you parroting the words of ancient men with pens or did God personally inform you of this tidbit?

Seriously, HA, why not be honest and just say that you do not really know why some people are gay?   Why pretend that you actually KNOW that the supreme entity did not intend for some percentage of species to be homosexual (and other variants of sexual orientation)?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.2.8  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  TruettCollins @11.2.4    6 years ago

Really?  Where does it mention any other humans being created before Adam and Eve or after?  If there were others when Adam and Eve sinned, they would not have been affected by Adam and Eves sin.  That happened before Adam and Eve had their first child.  Thus all of humanity was affected by their sin since all were born into sin.  The Bible only mentions names of individuals central to the story of salvation and of Gods people through time.  Adam and Eve lived over 900 years after they sinned so they had likely a dozen or more  sons and daughters never named. At creation and after the flood all species were few in number and multiplied in a manner no longer safe to do due to the effects of sin and disease over time and thus what was natural in a perfect and near perfect one became and still is taboo.  

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
11.2.9  lennylynx  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.2.8    6 years ago

"Adam and Eve lived over 900 years..."

Ooooo-k then, glad that's settled!  I wonder what they did on their 900th anniversary, and if Adam was still gettin' it up, he was a helluva man!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
11.2.10  Trout Giggles  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.2.8    6 years ago

So Cain and Abel had sex with their sisters.

I guess incest is condoned in the Bible

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
11.2.11  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.2.8    6 years ago
Where does it mention any other humans being created before Adam and Eve or after?

Indeed.   You and Truett do not see eye-to-eye on the Bible.  

Too bad that the divine word of God is so vague and confusing that even one of the most fundamental questions (i.e  'is everyone a descendant of Adam and Eve?') does not have a clearly agreed-upon answer.   Not even among two Christians.

Given the amount of disagreement (even over the fundamentals) why do people continue to point to the Bible for moral guidance?   Nobody can honestly claim to be properly interpreting the Bible so it is very unlikely to be the divine word of a perfect God.    (Unless God has set out to confuse everyone.)

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
11.2.12  epistte  replied to  lennylynx @11.2.9    6 years ago
I wonder what they did on their 900th anniversary, and if Adam was still gettin' it up, he was a helluva man!

What do you get a couple on their 150th, 250th and 500th wedding anniversary because my copy of Emily Post is kind of light on those details?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
11.2.13  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @11.2.10    6 years ago

I don't think poor Eve was able to get off her back for a good 300 years, 15 years after Cain and Abel were born.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
11.2.14  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @11.2.11    6 years ago
Nobody can honestly claim to be properly interpreting the Bible so it is very unlikely to be the divine word of a perfect God.

But everyone thinks their interpretation of the bible is the correct one.

(Unless God has set out to confuse everyone.)

Or he just has a cruel sense of humor.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
11.2.15  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @11.2.14    6 years ago
But everyone thinks their interpretation of the bible is the correct one.

Yeah.  How can so many    k n o w     their particular sect holds the truth while the majority on the planet are wrong?

Atheists are not convinced there is a God but many (most?) theists know that their particular view of God is true and their God exists.     Thinking 2

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
11.2.16  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @11.2.15    6 years ago
How can so many k n o w their particular sect holds the truth while the majority on the planet are wrong?

I suppose it depends on which sect can perform logic twisting and mental gymnastics better?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
11.2.17  devangelical  replied to  TruettCollins @11.2.4    6 years ago

Nope, sorry, I rolled a party joint with that page.

But please feel free to parrot the pretzel logic of some thumper website that provides easy answers to hard questions and tell us how Cain simply walked to the next cul-de-sac over and found a willing virgin maiden that was not of the family of Adam. I wonder if those folks were evicted from the garden of eden too.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
11.2.18  Skrekk  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.2.8    6 years ago
Where does it mention any other humans being created before Adam and Eve or after?

You mean apart from the Jewish tradition of Lilith?    I can see why so many Christian extremists are threatened by confident women like her.   Subordinate women are where it's at.

 
 
 
TruettCollins
Freshman Silent
11.2.19  TruettCollins  replied to  epistte @11.2.6    6 years ago

It says they were the first, not the only......come on you can do better than that....

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
11.2.20  epistte  replied to  TruettCollins @11.2.19    6 years ago
It says they were the first, not the only......come on you can do better than that....

Are you sincerely saying that God created the earth and then in Genesis 1-26-27 created man and woman, but that there were other gods and people who previously existed?  Is this an admission of polytheism on your part, or do you believe that Genesis, as it is written, is not the complete story? Apparently your god is not omnipotent.

Genesis 1:1-3

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis, 1:26-27

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
11.2.21  TᵢG  replied to  TruettCollins @11.2.19    6 years ago
It says they were the first, not the only...

Okay so let's run with your hypothesis that the biblical God created other human beings who were not the progeny of Adam &  Eve.   Outside of an interesting spin on a well-established religious belief it introduces a bit of a problem.   As I noted five days ago:

@ 11.2.5     TiG    -  If God created other human beings (i.e. not progeny of Adam and Eve) then these created human beings would have been pure - free of sin - as were Adam and Eve when created.   So would you argue that God created more pure human beings only to have them mate with the 'sinful' blood of Adam and Eve's descendants?   Seems like the beginning of yet another long and twisted path of convoluted logic.

You spin an atypical religious tale about other ' original human beings' yet cannot even address the most obvious first question.   You do not seem to have grounds to complain about others ' doing better than that '.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
11.2.22  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @11.2.10    6 years ago

At creation and after the flood all species were few in number and multiplied in a manner no longer safe to do due to the effects of sin and disease over time and thus what was natural in a perfect and near perfect one became and still is taboo.

It's the non-believers fault that thumpers are now persecuted for fucking their immediate family and other relatives.

 
 
 
TruettCollins
Freshman Silent
11.2.23  TruettCollins  replied to  epistte @11.2.20    6 years ago
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Where does it say that Adam and Eve were the only ones created?

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
11.2.24  epistte  replied to  TruettCollins @11.2.23    6 years ago
Where does it say that Adam and Eve were the only ones created?

Are you sure that you want to be intellectually dishonest and open this door because if you can walk through it so can I?

If others were created then why weren't they mentioned?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12  Perrie Halpern R.A.    6 years ago

I'm not even sure why this is even a topic. 

I'm a hard science kind of girl. The hard science says that when you look at the MRI's the brain of gay individuals, they are structurally different. No amount of "therapy" is going to change that. 

Conversion therapy can't fix what mother nature has created. 

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.1  epistte  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12    6 years ago
Conversion therapy can't fix what mother nature has created.

The people pushing reparative therapy are either very deep in their own closet or religious shysters looking to capitalize on their discomfort.  Anyone with even a minimal knowledge of psychology can see them projecting like a 12 screen Cineplex. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
12.2  arkpdx  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12    6 years ago

And Mother Nature created pedophiles,  drug addicts,  alcoholics,  schizophrenics and other disorders. Do you propose that they not be treated for their ailments? 

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.1  epistte  replied to  arkpdx @12.2    6 years ago
schizophrenics and other disorders. Do you propose that they not be treated for their ailments?

Why do you try to equate LGBT people with pedophiles, alcoholics and drug addicts? 

Who is being harmed by someone being gay and loving another consenting adult?

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
Sophomore Silent
12.2.2  Phoenyx13  replied to  arkpdx @12.2    6 years ago
And Mother Nature created pedophiles,  drug addicts,  alcoholics,  schizophrenics and other disorders. Do you propose that they not be treated for their ailments?

please explain how the LGBT community can be grouped in the same category as pedophiles, drug addicts, alcoholics, schizophrenics and other disorders. Do all these groups have the same structure to their brains ? what is the common "link" that you think exists to place all of these groups into the same category as people who have "ailments" ?

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
12.2.3  Dulay  replied to  Phoenyx13 @12.2.2    6 years ago

Cue the crickets.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
12.2.4  Gordy327  replied to  Dulay @12.2.3    6 years ago
Cue the crickets.

Or at best some absurd and asinine response.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
12.2.5  Skrekk  replied to  arkpdx @12.2    6 years ago
And Mother Nature created pedophiles,  drug addicts,  alcoholics,  schizophrenics and other disorders.

Thus revealing your own rather profound anti-LGBT bias.    Your comment makes as much sense as comparing those categories to left-handed folks, a minority which similarly been irrationally stigmatized by Christianity and related superstitions.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.6  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  epistte @12.2.1    6 years ago

Arkpdx is right.  And there are dangerous side effects of any sexual behavior outside of one man one woman marriage where both are complete virgins when married and never cheat on each other afterward.  

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
12.2.7  Skrekk  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.6    6 years ago
And there are dangerous side effects of any sexual behavior outside of one man one woman marriage where both are complete virgins when married and never cheat on each other afterward.

Thus your vote for the thrice-married pussy-grabber who was porking a porn-star while his 3rd wife was nursing her son.   That's a true biblical marriage.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.8  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Skrekk @12.2.7    6 years ago

I didn’t vote for him.  Next?  

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.9  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.6    6 years ago
And there are dangerous side effects of any sexual behavior outside of one man one woman marriage

What are those dangerous effects of non-heterosexual marriage?  Do you also have a problem with recreational sex, even when married?

where both are complete virgins when married and never cheat on each other afterward.

Where do you get the idea that marrying as a virgin means that people don't cheat on each other?  Why do you have a problem with pre-marital sex? Why would you want to marry someone who is as inexperienced as you are and doesn't know what they like? You sound suspiciously like conservative Muslims who punish unmarried women who are not virgins.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.10  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.8    6 years ago
I didn’t vote for him.

Is that why Trump is your avatar? How many threads have you created that support Trump?

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
12.2.11  lennylynx  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.6    6 years ago

There are dangerous side effects from eating bacon.  It's caused the death of many people, especially men, at far too young an age.  Is eating fatty foods a sin too?

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.12  epistte  replied to  lennylynx @12.2.11    6 years ago

There is that passage in Leviticus, but that would also be restraint of trade for hog farmers and pork processors, as well as trampling on the rights of non-conservative Christians. I wonder which side HA will support? 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
12.2.13  charger 383  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.6    6 years ago

that don't sound like much fun

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
12.2.14  Trout Giggles  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.8    6 years ago
I didn’t vote for him.

But you support everything that orange baby-man does and says. Now explain yourself. Do you honestly think trumpy has the same moral and ethical values as you do?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.15  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  epistte @12.2.9    6 years ago

The fact is that with all the STD’s out there and Hep C and AIDS the one sure way to avoid something bad being transmitted sexually is what I said.  Two pure virgins with no prior sexual contact with another person who remain faithful to each other for life are the least at risk of getting an STD.  People engaging in premarital, extramarital, and bi sexual activities greatly increase the risk.  

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
12.2.17  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.15    6 years ago
People engaging in premarital, extramarital, and bi sexual activities greatly increase the risk.

Stats show that about 1/3 of married HETEROSEXUALS cheat. Looks like HETEROSEXUALS are the majority of the problem. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
12.2.18  Dulay  replied to    6 years ago
Why would want to marry someone that's fucked everything on two legs?

Thank you for illustrating that conservatives only see in black and white. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.19  Tessylo  replied to  Dulay @12.2.17    6 years ago

'People engaging in premarital, extramarital, and bi sexual activities greatly increase the risk.'

The shithole in chief cheated on each of his wives and one with a porn star without a condom.

I hope Stormy Daniels didn't get syphilis from little donnie's diseased little dick.  

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.20  epistte  replied to    6 years ago

There are things like condoms and other ways to prevent STDs. 

This would suggest that, on some level, men and women still associate a higher number of sexual partners with promiscuity in women and sexual prowess in men. And while it's true that women are more permissive when it comes to a partner's number, the difference is small enough to be almost negligible. Men believe that 14 sexual partners is the threshold of sexual promiscuity, while women put the limit at 15.2.

But what about the other end of the spectrum? Is there a point at which a partner becomes too sexually conservative to be desirable? Turns out, there is. For men, 2.3 partners suggests an undesirable level of sexual conservatism; for women, that number is 1.9.

So, we know how many partners is considered too many, and how many is considered too few. But what's the magical Goldilocks number—the ideal number of partners? Turns out men and women are in almost perfect agreement on the ideal number of lifetime sexual partners: Women cited 7.5 as the ideal number, while men bumped that up to an even 7.6.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.21  epistte  replied to  epistte @12.2.10    6 years ago
Is that why Trump is your avatar? How many threads have you created that support Trump?

I wonder why Heartland hasn't replied to this question?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
12.2.22  Gordy327  replied to  epistte @12.2.21    6 years ago

(Skirting the CoC removed) Telo

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.23  epistte  replied to  Gordy327 @12.2.22    6 years ago
Removed violation quotation

no comment. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.24  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  epistte @12.2.21    6 years ago

I’ve explained this several times elsewhere on this site already.  I was actually relieved that Hillary was defeated. I voted for Evan McMullin.   Between the election and the inauguration I decided to support our new President based on the Supreme Court, tax reform, energy policy, regulation rollback, and administration appointments.  The other motivator was all the riots and protests in our cities after the upset occurred.  No way I would associate myself with that human debris. Lastly some of the progressives here and their words were enough to come off the fence as their bitterness became obvious.  Now I’m glad and relish in that Hillary lost in the most painful way possible for herself and her voters.  I especially love being a Trump supporter in California where I can mock their 4 million popular voters here with a giant L.  

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
12.2.25  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.24    6 years ago
The other motivator was all the riots and protests in our cities after the upset occurred. No way I would associate myself with that human debris.

That's interesting HA because on almost every seed you manage to interject your agenda to protest your existing state government, to be as much a thorn in their side and financial burden as possible. So before you start labeling people that you oppose as 'human debris' perhaps a little self reflection is in order. 

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
12.2.26  Skrekk  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.24    6 years ago

(Skirting the CoC removed) Telo

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.27  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.24    6 years ago
Between the election and the inauguration I decided to support our new President based on the Supreme Court, tax reform, energy policy, regulation rollback, and administration appointments.

Why don't you have a picture of Evan Mullin if you are a supporter of his ideas?

Why are you voting for a former CIA member and a Wall Street banker. This guy is the establishment and the deep state that conservatives constantly rant about. The fact that he is Mormon makes me question your supposed religious claims. 

Your preferred POTUS candidate also lost. He is nothing like Trump so why are you supporting Trump?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.29  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Dulay @12.2.25    6 years ago

I addressed them in that manner based on the actions described not simply because they disagree with me.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.30  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  epistte @12.2.27    6 years ago

(Skirting the CoC removed) Telo

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.31  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.30    6 years ago
Because you oppose him.

That is the definition of trolling.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Guide
12.2.32  Raven Wing  replied to  Dulay @12.2.25    6 years ago

(Skirting the CoC removed) Telo

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.33  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  epistte @12.2.31    6 years ago

Except of course that I had begun supporting him before you migrated here from the other site.  But the fact is that my support of him grows with the intensity of hate toward him by the secular progressive left.  The stronger the dislike of him in the media and in public places like this, the stronger my support for him grows.  

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
12.2.34  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.33    6 years ago
But the fact is that my support of him grows with the intensity of hate toward him by the secular progressive left.

You cannot help yourself from digging deeper into the hole that you previously created.  The first step to getting out of a hole is to stop digging deeper.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
12.2.35  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.29    6 years ago
I addressed them in that manner based on the actions described not simply because they disagree with me.

You aren't addressing 'them', your calling 'them' names on a website. You have plenty of opportunity to actually address the  'secular progressive left' right there in Redding if you have the gonads to address them as 'human debris' to their face. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.36  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Dulay @12.2.35    6 years ago

There was no one here in Redding who behaved like I described in the other post. No riots.  No noisy protests and trash left everywhere, no one mugged or beaten because they supported Trump.  None of the 29% here who voted for Hillary acted like human debris.  Redding was likely the most pro Trump incorporated city in the entire state.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.37  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  epistte @12.2.27    6 years ago

Now there are three options.  Support him or oppose him or decide case by case.  I was going to do the last one but the words and actions of his opponents were such that I made the choice to support him.  His opposition is so anti America, so vile, so hate filled that even if I do oppose a policy or act of his, I’d keep silent about it rather than associate with those kind of people even on a single issue.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.38  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Dulay @12.2.3    6 years ago

No crickets 🦗 for you as it turned out.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
12.2.39  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.36    6 years ago
There was no one here in Redding who behaved like I described in the other post. No riots. No noisy protests and trash left everywhere, no one mugged or beaten because they supported Trump.

Actually, according to many a Facebook page from Redding there HAVE been quite a few noisy protests. One of the recent ones was Redding March for our lives. 

None of the 29% here who voted for Hillary acted like human debris.

Good of you to acknowledge that not all Hillary supporters are human debris. /s

Redding was likely the most pro Trump incorporated city in the entire state.

How's THAT working our for you?

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
12.2.40  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.36    6 years ago
There was no one here in Redding who behaved like I described in the other post. No riots. No noisy protests and trash left everywhere, no one mugged or beaten because they supported Trump.

Actually, judging from area Facebook pages, there sure as hell HAVE been some noisy protests. One that recently had a very good turn out was the Redding March for our lives. 

None of the 29% here who voted for Hillary acted like human debris.

Well looky there, HA acknowledging that not all Hillary voters are human debris. /s

Redding was likely the most pro Trump incorporated city in the entire state.

How's THAT working out for ya? 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
12.2.41  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.38    6 years ago
No crickets 🦗 for you as it turned out.

Actually, the crickets are still chirping loudly since the member NEVER answered the question. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.2.42  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Dulay @12.2.39    6 years ago

Just fine actually.                   

With a financial assist from the state, downtown Redding is expected to undergo an approximate $200 million renaissance over the next several years that includes a new Shasta County courthouse and two multi-story, mixed-use developments.

“It is very exciting to think about,” said Redding Chamber of Commerce CEO Jake Mangas, whose organization in 2017 relocated downtown.

“We have gotten this influx of money coming from the state back to the North State, which is making this all possible," he said. "It’s going to have a physical, transformative impact on our downtown.”

An artist rendering on display Tuesday night at Old City Hall in downtown Redding shows plans for a mixed-use project to replace half of the aging parking structure.

SEAN LONGORIA/RECORD SEARCHLIGHT
Shannon Phillips, chief operating officer for the McConnell Foundation, said it’s an exciting time to live in Redding.

The Redding philanthropic organization learned Monday that it’s all but official: It has received a $20 million state sustainable growth grant to redevelop the California Street parking structure into a mixed-use development.

McConnell is partnering with K2 Development, the city of Redding, Shasta Regional Transportation Agency and the Community Development & Revitalization Corporation on the project.

“We are over the moon,” Phillips said.

Here is a rundown of other major projects coming to downtown.

More: Downtown Redding project recommended for $20M state funding

Shasta County courthouse

Construction on the $135 million courthouse is expected to start in October, but workers should start prepping the site in September.

The project is happening because the state’s 2018-19 budget commits to construction on the new courthouse.  

The new Shasta County Courthouse is expected to be completed in early 2021.
SUBMITTED PHOTO
“I know the contractor is very anxious to get started. He definitely wants to get as much done before we get into the wet weather,” Shasta County Superior Court Executive Officer Melissa Fowler-Bradley said Wednesday.

Construction will last about 30 months, so the courthouse is expected to be move-in ready on Feb. 1, 2021.

Work last summer cleared the way for the new building.

Crews tore down the former Shasta County Sheriff's Office building, the Dobrowsky House and other buildings on the block between Butte and Yuba streets.

The Sheriff's Offices moved in March 2016 to a building on Park Marina Drive.

The new courthouse will sit on about 2 acres.

Sundt Construction, based in Tempe, Arizona, with an office in Sacramento, is the general contractor.

More: Brown's budget plan includes new Shasta Co. courthouse

California Street parking structure

The project hinges on a $20 million state Affordable Housing and Sustainable Communities (AHSC) Fund grant.

Grants are scheduled to be awarded June 28, but Phillips said they learned Monday that Redding is one of 19 projects being recommended for a grant.

“We saw that Redding is on the list and so we got very excited,” Phillips said.

More: Redding downtown businesses agree parking garage has got to go, but spaces still needed

What’s more, the McConnell Foundation and the city received a $4 million Infill Infrastructure Grant (IIG) that will go toward a smaller parking structure to complement the McConnell-K2 project, Phillips said.

“You can receive the AHSC grant without getting the IIG grant but you can’t get the IIG grant without getting the AHSC grant,” Phillips said.

Replacing the aging structure would be a mixed-use development with affordable and market-rate apartments, office, retail and a public park. The apartments would bookend the green space.

Work on the project is expected to start within two years, Phillips said.

Phillips did not know when the project would be finished nor a price tag.

“We don’t know what the total capital outlay will be because we don’t have the full construction bid for the project,” she said.

More: McConnell's plans to revitalize downtown intersection move forward

Dicker’s building

K2 Land and Investment is razing the former Dicker's building to make room for a four-story, mixed-use development.

RENDERING COURTESY OF K2
The former department store near the north end of the Market Street Prominade was demolished in early May to make room for a $38 million, four-story, mixed-use building that will house apartments, retail and office space.  

The project will reopen Market, Yuba and Butte streets through the Promenade.

Construction is expected to last more than a year and the building could be occupied in March 2020.

View | 13 Photos
Demolition of the Dicker's Building
More: Party time: Demo work on Dicker's building to start

Green Door project

The McConnell Foundation would convert the warehouse on the former police station property downtown into a seasonal pop-up market with a public space. The market would front California Street and use the existing warehouse bays as storefronts.
The McConnell Foundation would convert the warehouse on the former police station property downtown into a seasonal pop-up market with a public space. The market would front California Street and use the existing warehouse bays as storefronts.
RENDERING COURTESY RUSSELL STUDIO
The McConnell Foundation this spring purchased the old police station on California Street from the city for $685,000.

McConnell will tear down the brick building and keep the warehouse, at least temporarily. The old station’s green doors will be saved, which is why the foundation is calling it “The Green Door Project.”

Eventually, the former police station property and warehouse building will make room for downtown parking to complement the redeveloped California Street parking structure property.

In the interim, the warehouse that juts out toward Tehama Street will house pop-up markets that feature locally sourced produce, art for sale and other local retail products, Phillips has said. It also could be a place to rent bikes.

The market could be open for the public in September.

More: McConnell closes deal to buy former police station

Bell Rooms

The McConnell Foundation wants to purchase the Bell Rooms building in downtown Redding and develop it into a bicycle-themed cafe.

COURTESY OF TRILOGY ARCHITECTURE
News that the California Street parking garage project in all likelihood getting a $20 million state grant also is good news for McConnell's plan to repurpose the historic Bell Rooms property into a bicycle-themed café.

The Bell Rooms, which at one time was a brothel, sits next to the old Bing's Automotive building near the corner of California and Shasta streets.

About a $1 million of the state grant will go toward a bike share program that Phillips of the foundation said could include bikes available to rent, a starting point for bike tours, bicycle storage and a place to park your bike before.

“It will not be a bike shop, not a place to buy or sell bikes,” Phillips said. “But it would be more of a biking hub.”

Phillips said none of the grant money will toward the café.

“We will work with Shasta Living Streets, SRTA (Shasta Regional Transportation Agency) in designing that space,” she said.

More: A rare win over City Hall in feud sparked by Bell Rooms.    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.redding.com/amp/718317002                      Thanks for asking.  

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
12.2.43  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.2.42    6 years ago
With a financial assist from the state, downtown Redding is expected to undergo an approximate $200 million renaissance over the next several years that includes a new Shasta County courthouse and two multi-story, mixed-use developments.

That can't be possible. All of your prior posts prove that the State of CA is the WORST HELLHOLE on the planet. You've insisted ad nauseam that you have no representation and the Democratic majority in the Statehouse ignore your plight. It can't be possible that those horrid secular progressive elites would appropriate that kind of investment into infrastructure in your neck of the woods. It would blow all too many of your whining points out of the water and just about eviscerate your claims that there is a dire need for a 'State of Jefferson'. 

I think you should sit down right now and get a grip. You've run off of your 'State of Jefferson' rails and if you don't get back on soon you may never be able to reconnect with your dystopian delusions. 

Oh wait, it just came to me that this could be what you meant by being a thorn in the side of CA and costing 'them' as much as possible until they let you leave. Wow, great plan! 

Just in case it's not evident, tagged /s

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
12.3  Skrekk  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12    6 years ago
I'm not even sure why this is even a topic.

It really shouldn't be but apparently there are still enough quacks out there trying to harm LGBT folks that we need these laws.   I don't remember if you're in NY or NJ but the JONAH quacks were recently discovered to still be preying on gay Orthodox Jewish men despite the court order for them to shut down and cease their fraud, and a recent NJ law banning the practice.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
12.3.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Skrekk @12.3    6 years ago

If people who are or lean gay convert and become saved and believe homosexuality to be the abomination sin God said it is and want to change rather than be totally abstinent which is also an option for a convert, they should have a right to try and those who would assist that effort should have the right to do so.  

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
12.3.2  Skrekk  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.3.1    6 years ago

Sounds like you're confused about which party this law applies to.    It doesn't prevent closeted gays or closeted straights from trying to "change" their innate sexual orientation (as silly as that would be).   All it does is prohibit state-licensed health care providers from engaging in a harmful, ineffective and fraudulent quackery.    By the way the same kind of regulation applies to those who try to sell laetrile to treat cancer.    The state has a compelling interest in preventing such fraud and quackery, particularly in these cases where death can result from the quackery.

By the way you can still go to the local "witch doctor" at your favorite house of superstition to get your gay demons exorcised, but they can't pretend to be health care providers.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
13  arkpdx    6 years ago
So before you start labeling people that you oppose as 'human debris' perhaps a little self reflection is in order. 

Tell me,  when has HA or anyone else that is in the Jefferson movement for that matter rioted,  set fires, assaulted police and/or created mayhem in the streets. To date those in favor of a new state have remained calm and peaceful much unlike the destruction and violence we saw after the elections . Writing on an internet blog is a long ways from throwing rocks,  road flares and Molotov cocktails .Maybe you should take your own advice and do a little self reflection .

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
13.1  Dulay  replied to  arkpdx @13    6 years ago

The 'Jefferson movement' STARTED with an armed rebellion. Sheesh read a book, or at least the crib notes. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
13.1.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Dulay @13.1    6 years ago

As if this is 1941.  Of course the area was overwhelmingly democrat back then.....

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
13.1.2  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @13.1.1    6 years ago
As if this is 1941.

He asked if it 'EVER' happened, thanks for admitting it STARTED that way. Judging from some of the websites that support the 'State of Jefferson', it's pretty freaking clear that y'all want it to continue that way too. The one for your 'Jefferson State militia' makes it pretty clear what y'all have in mind. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
13.1.3  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Dulay @13.1    6 years ago

Really?  Please describe where said arms were ever used in the initial effort to create the state of Jefferson in1941?  Who was shot and how many on each side were injured 🤕 or killed in the conflict? 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
13.1.4  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @13.1.3    6 years ago
Really?

Yes REALLY. I see that you aren't denying that the official websites of the 'State of Jefferson' have links to the 'Jefferson State militia' and that THAT organization is decidedly militant.

Please describe where said arms were ever used in the initial effort to create the state of Jefferson in1941?

I presume that you know of the SOJC MC. They up in Happy Camp, CA. Here is what their website says about their history.

The State of Jefferson Citizens Committee was formed, which was made up mostly of members of Yreka's 20-30 club, and announced that the State of Jefferson would be created every Thursday until recognized. Each Thursday committee members would go out to highway 99 at the location where it entered the boundaries of the State of Jefferson, and would cover the signs with sheets that said "State of Jefferson" on them. They would then set up roadblocks and activists on horse-back with guns, would stop traffic and hand out copies of the Proclamation of Independence, and red and blue windshield stickers which read, "I have visited JEFFERSON, the 49th State." and then let the people through.

Here's a video from 1941:

Now I'm sure that you've seen this video more than once so I can't help but wonder WHY you would ask me 'where the said guns were'. 

The difference today is that y'all have FAILED all these years and are getting frustrated, so you're training and arming up and the next time it ain't gonna be so 'civilized'. That isn't ME talking, that's what's on y'all websites. 

BTW, I presume nowadays y'all carry tiki torches...

Who was shot and how many on each side were injured 🤕 or killed in the conflict?

Did I say anyone was injured or killed in 1941? Why no, NO I didn't. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
13.1.5  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Dulay @13.1.4    6 years ago

It was a harmless gesture that means nothing now. While we have all our signs and flags all along I-5 from Arbuckle north to Oregon and Hw 99 from north of the Sacramento county line to Red Bluff as well as other east west routes in the region and hold demonstrations on freeway over passes on 5 and 80, we don’t stop traffic.  

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
13.1.6  devangelical  replied to  XXJefferson51 @13.1.5    6 years ago
we don’t stop traffic.

Not even if you stand in front of it?

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
13.1.7  arkpdx  replied to  Dulay @13.1.4    6 years ago

So how many fires were started? How much actual violence was done. How many were injured by thrown rocks and bottles?  How much property damage was there? 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
13.1.8  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  arkpdx @13.1.7    6 years ago

Thanks for making a return to my seed and making your fine points.  I appreciate that you are one of the few voices of reason on this seed.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
13.1.9  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  devangelical @13.1.6    6 years ago

How do you stop traffic from a freeway overpass waving banners, signs, and flags?  

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
13.1.10  Dulay  replied to  arkpdx @13.1.7    6 years ago
So how many fires were started? How much actual violence was done. How many were injured by thrown rocks and bottles?

THEY proudly label their actions as an 'ARMED REBELLION'. I can't help but wonder if YOU were stopped by ARMED men at a road block, if YOU would think that was an act of violence. I sure as hell would. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
13.1.11  Dulay  replied to  arkpdx @13.1.7    6 years ago

BTW, since you've been welcomed back, how about answering 12.2.2.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14  1ofmany    6 years ago

Homosexuality is a behavior not an immutable characteristic like race and there is no scientific proof to the contrary. Brain scans have proven absolutely nothing. If homosexuality were genetic, then identical twins would both be either straight or gay but they’re not. The behavior is no more genetic than a foot fetish or any other abnormal sexual behavior. Most of the nonsense passed off as science is psycho-babble from psychologists. However, psychology is not a science and psychologists are not scientists. 

The problem with reparative therapy is not that it can’t work but that it might. If it works, then the gay identity narrative falls apart because if homosexuality is immutable, then it can’t be changed but if you change it then it obviously isn’t immutable. What’s curious is that society will believe that a person is gay by nature based entirely on what a person says but, if he says he no longer feels that way, then he can’t be believed because he’s delusional. In fact, he can’t be allowed to change because he will harm the narrative — I mean himself — if he tries. This is ridiculous. People have the basic human right to be normal. Denying them the chance to be normal should be deemed unconstitutional. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
14.1  Ender  replied to  1ofmany @14    6 years ago

If what you say is true, then you, as straight, could choose to be gay. Could you?

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
14.1.1  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  Ender @14.1    6 years ago
as straight, could choose to be gay. Could you?

I think that is the point,,, anyone can choose anything

but some of us will never choose pralines and dick ice cream.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
14.1.2  Ender  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @14.1.1    6 years ago

So you are saying that you could be with a member of the same sex.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.1.3  1ofmany  replied to  Ender @14.1    6 years ago
If what you say is true, then you, as straight, could choose to be gay. Could you?

It’s just a behavior so I could choose to engage in it just like I could any other sexual behavior but I choose not to do it. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.3    6 years ago
It’s just a behavior so I could choose to engage in it just like I could any other sexual behavior but I choose not to do it.

You still confuse sex with orientation I see. Sexual activity might be a behavior. But sexual attraction is an orientation. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
14.1.5  Ender  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.3    6 years ago

Then I would call that bisexual.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.1.6  1ofmany  replied to  Ender @14.1.5    6 years ago
Then I would that bisexual.

And if I do it, would you say it’s genetic? If I decide I don’t want to do it again, did my damn genes change? 

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.1.7  1ofmany  replied to  Ender @14.1.2    6 years ago
So you are saying that you could be with a member of the same sex.

Some guys can be with a blow up doll but it’s not because they have a genetic attraction to dolls and they can throw it away when a woman comes along. It’s just a behavior and it’s still a behavior even if the guy says he prefers the doll to a real woman. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
14.1.8  Ender  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.6    6 years ago

I will put it in simple if not crude terms. 

Some men cannot get an erection with a woman. Thus gay.

Some men cannot get an erection with another man. Thus straight.

Some men can get an erection with both. Thus bisexual.

People are born the way they are. No amount of regressive (if not harmful) therapy can change the way their body responds.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.1.9  1ofmany  replied to  Ender @14.1.8    6 years ago

I will put it in simple if not crude terms. 

Some men cannot get an erection with a woman. Thus gay.

Some men cannot get an erection with another man. Thus straight.

Some men can get an erection with both. Thus bisexual.

People are born the way they are. No amount of regressive (if not harmful) therapy can change the way their body responds.

Getting an erection or not getting one, in and of itself, doesn’t establish anything definitive. People are helped to understand the reason for dysfunctional and aberrant behavior all the time and they can change. Let people who want to change make their own decisions and get treatment if they want it. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
14.1.10  Ender  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.9    6 years ago

I would say that most people that would go voluntarily do so because of societal, peer or familial pressure. Being told that their inner most feelings are wrong because they differ from those that purposefully make them an outcast.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.1.11  Gordy327  replied to  Ender @14.1.8    6 years ago
Some men cannot get an erection with a woman. Thus gay. Some men cannot get an erection with another man. Thus straight. Some men can get an erection with both. Thus bisexual.

In all fairness, some men may also suffer from erectile dysfunction. Just saying.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.1.12  Gordy327  replied to  Ender @14.1.10    6 years ago
Being told that their inner most feelings are wrong because they differ from those that purposefully make them an outcast.

That's a typical tactic of bigots, homophobes, or those just willfully ignorant of sexual orientation in general.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.1.13  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.6    6 years ago
And if I do it, would you say it’s genetic? If I decide I don’t want to do it again, did my damn genes change?

The real question is, are you attracted to one gender over the other, or to both?

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.1.14  1ofmany  replied to  Gordy327 @14.1.13    6 years ago
The real question is, are you attracted to one gender over the other, or to both?

Why ask me when you can do a brain scan or examine my genes? There’s the gay gene, the straight gene, the bi gene and then there’s the foot fetish gene, and the hop a goat gene, and the incest gene and on and on. 

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.1.15  1ofmany  replied to  Ender @14.1.10    6 years ago
I would say that most people that would go voluntarily do so because of societal, peer or familial pressure. Being told that their inner most feelings are wrong because they differ from those that purposefully make them an outcast.

And what if their innermost feeling tells them they want to be normal? You get to say “nope, too bad. Sorry. You’re too delusional to decide anything so I’ll decide for you and you’re going to have to stay as you are.” 

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.1.16  epistte  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.14    6 years ago
Why ask me when you can do a brain scan or examine my genes? There’s the gay gene, the straight gene, the bi gene and then there’s the foot fetish gene, and the hop a goat gene, and the incest gene and on and on.

The word of the day is epigenetic.

I have to wonder why you and a few others continually try to link being LGBTI with abhorrent behaviors such as bestality, necrophilia and pedophilia? Are you just looking for a reason to hate people who are different or is there something innate in you that you do not want to discuss at this time?  Who is being harmed because two adults of the same gender love each other? Who is being harmed because someone decides to correct an incongruent gender identity situation?  Do gay/bi/trans people scare you because they are different than you are so you feel the desire to attack what you don't understand?  Have you been an unsuspecting victim of a fabulous yet hostile makeover in the past?  Were you equally offended by interracial or interfaith couples?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.1.17  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.14    6 years ago

Nice dodge. How about simply answering the question rather than being willfully obtuse! Or perhaps you cannot provide any answer that won't make you look foolish and dig yourself deeper in a hole. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
14.1.18  Ender  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.15    6 years ago

Normal is subjective. Some people hide their feelings and try to push them down. Some people even get married and have children. It usually never works out.

The feelings and attractions remain, whether they want them or not.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.1.19  Gordy327  replied to  epistte @14.1.16    6 years ago
The word of the day is epigenetic.

That might be too complicated for some people. Especially those who view genetics with a very narrow lens or understanding.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.1.20  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.15    6 years ago
And what if their innermost feeling tells them they want to be normal? You get to say “nope, too bad. Sorry. You’re too delusional to decide anything so I’ll decide for you and you’re going to have to stay as you are.”

Why would they feel abnormal to begin with? Especially when they're not? Unless certain types of individuals tells them they are abnormal because they are otherwise ignorant about sexuality and sexual orientation and somehow seem to think they themselves are some kind of gold standard to be!

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.1.21  1ofmany  replied to  epistte @14.1.16    6 years ago
I have to wonder why you and a few others continually try to link being LGBTI with abhorrent behaviors such as bestality, necrophilia and pedophilia?

Theyre all behaviors. Whether they’re abhorrent or not is a judgement. Why do you keep equating a perverse sexual behavior to being black? 

Are you just looking for a reason to hate people who are different or is there something innate in you that you do not want to discuss at this time? 

I want to help them get help. Why do you hate them so much that you would deprive them of it?

Who is being harmed because two adults of the same gender love each other? Who is being harmed because someone decides to correct an incongruent gender identity situation? 

How does it harm you if they get therapy to live normally? Why does it bother you so much when it’s actually none of your business?

Do gay/bi/trans people scare you because they are different than you are so you feel the desire to attack what you don't understand? 

Why are you so afraid that this behavior can be changed? 

Have you been an unsuspecting victim of a fabulous yet hostile makeover in the past?  Were you equally offended by interracial or interfaith couples?

Those aren’t behaviors. If someone said he was sexually attracted to children, would you say “dear that’s just the way your genes made you so you’re going to have to live with it. Sorry”

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
Sophomore Silent
14.1.23  Phoenyx13  replied to  1ofmany @14.1.15    6 years ago
And what if their innermost feeling tells them they want to be normal? You get to say

"you already are normal"

sexual behavior <> sexual orientation. 

sexual behavior is not dependent upon, nor exclusive to, nor necessarily an indication of sexual orientation - if you feel otherwise then talk to some prostitutes, they will sexually service (sexual behavior) for money and can easily not be attracted (sexual orientation) to the client due to their gender.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.2  Dulay  replied to  1ofmany @14    6 years ago
Homosexuality is a behavior not an immutable characteristic like race and there is no scientific proof to the contrary.

Homosexuality is an immutable SEXUAL ORIENTATION and there is a crap load of scientific proof to support that. 

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.2.1  1ofmany  replied to  Dulay @14.2    6 years ago
Homosexuality is an immutable SEXUAL ORIENTATION and there is a crap load of scientific proof to support that

It’s more like the “proof” is load of crap. There is no scienfitc proof AT ALL that has ever established homosexuality is nature and not nuture. By proof, I mean uncontroverted rather than a theory. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.2.2  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.1    6 years ago
It’s more like the “proof” is load of crap. There is no scienfitc proof AT ALL that has ever established homosexuality is nature and not nuture. By proof, I mean uncontroverted rather than a theory.

You offer no proof whatsoever to discredit the current evidence (by actual scientific organizations no less) supporting sexual orientation is not a choice, much less conclude homosexuality is merely a behavior and not an orientation. So far, you're all talk and all of it is willfully ignorant nonsense!

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.2.3  1ofmany  replied to  Gordy327 @14.2.2    6 years ago
You offer no proof whatsoever to discredit the current evidence (by actual scientific organizations no less) supporting sexual orientation is not a choice, much less conclude homosexuality is merely a behavior and not an orientation. So far, you're all talk and all of it is willfully ignorant nonsense!

There is no “evidence.” There are people who say they’re ex-gay just like they said they were gay. To you, I suppose the ex-gays are delusional. To me, they’re no more delusional now than they were when they said they were gay. But the proof is in the pudding. Let them get treatment if they want it. If you’re right, they can’t be changed. If they can change, then you’re wrong and you’ll have your proof. It’s funny that gays will say that nobody should dictate their sexual behavior and then they turn around and dictate somebody else’s sexual behavior by preventing them from trying to change. That’s f***ed up!

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.2.4  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.3    6 years ago
There is no “evidence.”

And that's where you're wrong! There's plenty of evidence from credible scientific and medical sources.

There are people who say they’re ex-gay just like they said they were gay.To you, I suppose the ex-gays are delusional.

Yes, that is delusional. or at the very least, self denial. Of course, we see instances like that due to religious pressure. But nothing actualy changes.

To me, they’re no more delusional now than they were when they said they were gay.

They're not delusional to begin with.

But the proof is in the pudding.

I see you've offered none whatsoever!

Let them get treatment if they want it.

They have that choice. But such "treatment" is either ineffective or actually harmful. It's not even considered treatment by the medical community. Especially since there is no condition to treat.

If you’re right, they can’t be changed.

Yes, I am right! You, not so much.

If they can change, then you’re wrong and you’ll have your proof.

There is no objective, empirical proof that any change is successful. 

It’s funny that gays will say that nobody should dictate their sexual behavior and then they turn around and dictate somebody else’s sexual behavior by preventing them from trying to change.

How are gays dictating anyone's sexual behavior?

That’s f***ed up!

Reparative therapy absolutely is f***ed up. What's that say about those who advocate it or think it actually works? 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.2.5  Dulay  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.1    6 years ago
By proof, I mean uncontroverted rather than a theory.

Oh, you mean like the 'theory of gravitation'. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.2.6  TᵢG  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.3    6 years ago

You seem convinced that a human being can choose their orientation.   

If that had any merit then you would be able to choose to be gay (temporarily).   Can you imagine any amount of will power, coaching, etc. that would get you to find women sexually unappealing and men to now be appealing to you?

If heterosexual males (in particular) cannot fathom how they would ever be able to become homosexual then why do these same males think the inverse is possible?

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.2.7  1ofmany  replied to  Dulay @14.2.5    6 years ago

Every theory is not sound. Theories are put forward to be tested. Many fail. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.2.8  Dulay  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.7    6 years ago
Every theory is not sound. Theories are put forward to be tested. Many fail.

Then make an argument against the theory, don't claim that citing a theory is an unworthy argument. 

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.2.9  epistte  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.1    6 years ago
It’s more like the “proof” is load of crap. There is no scienfitc proof AT ALL that has ever established homosexuality is nature and not nuture. By proof, I mean uncontroverted rather than a theory.

Where is your proof that homosexuality is a conscious choice that can be changed because medical science and the a former director of Exodus International says that it is not a choice and cannot be changed.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.2.10  1ofmany  replied to  epistte @14.2.9    6 years ago
Where is your proof that homosexuality is a conscious choice that can be changed because medical science and the a former director of Exodus International says that it is not a choice and cannot be changed.

The ex-gays are living proof. 

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.2.11  1ofmany  replied to  Dulay @14.2.8    6 years ago

It’s automatically rebutted by the simple observation that nowhere has science ever resolved whether homosexuality is nature or nurture, You offer only speculation and, in the absence of any proof, my speculation is as good as yours.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.2.12  epistte  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.10    6 years ago
The ex-gays are living proof.

There is no such thing as ex-gay. They just went back in the closet.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.2.13  Dulay  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.11    6 years ago
It’s automatically rebutted by the simple observation that nowhere has science ever resolved whether homosexuality is nature or nurture, You offer only speculation and, in the absence of any proof, my speculation is as good as yours.

Again, the same can be said about heterosexuality. Do you worry about whether your sexuality is because of nature or nurture? Does it matter to you one way or another? If not, why does it matter to you about anyone else's sexuality? 

There is on unequivocal fact. If sexual orientation is a CHOICE, then heterosexuality is a just as much a choice as homosexuality. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.2.14  Dulay  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.10    6 years ago
The ex-gays are living proof.

You know that the VAST majority of 'ex-gays' admit to still having same sex attraction right? That whole 'lust in your heart' thingy comes to mind.

If a woman is screwing a guy but fantasizing about a woman, she is a lesbian. The rest is just plumbing. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
14.2.15  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Dulay @14.2.13    6 years ago

Of course it is.  All acts of a sexual nature are done by choice.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.2.16  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.10    6 years ago
The ex-gays are living proof.

No such thing. Simply saying they're no longer gay is subjective and anecdotal. That's hardly valid proof!

It’s automatically rebutted by the simple observation that nowhere has science ever resolved whether homosexuality is nature or nurture,

Where's the science that says heterosexuality is nature or nurture?

You offer only speculation and, in the absence of any proof, my speculation is as good as yours.

Your so called speculation is contrasted quite sharply by most reputable and credible medical and scientific organizations! One such study, conducted by Dr. Michael Bailey of Northwestern University and presented in a meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, states:

"Scientists tested the DNA of 400 gay men and found that genes on at least two chromosomes affected whether a man was gay or straight."

According to Dr. Bailey, "Sexual orientation has nothing to do with choice. Our findings suggest there may be genes at play - we found evidence for two sets that affect whether a man is gay or straight. But it is not completely determinative; there are certainly other environmental factors involved. The study shows that there are genes involved in male sexual orientation."

This study also affirms other similar studies previous conducted. So the idea that genetics does not play into sexual orientation or that homosexuality is a choice is demonstrably false! It seems actual science beats your mere speculation!

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.2.17  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @14.2.15    6 years ago
All acts of a sexual nature are done by choice.

It looks as if you too also confuse behavior with orientation. Why am I not surprised?

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.2.18  Dulay  replied to  XXJefferson51 @14.2.15    6 years ago
All acts of a sexual nature are done by choice.

Then why is there the CRIME of rape? 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.2.19  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @14.2.15    6 years ago
Of course it is.  All acts of a sexual nature are done by choice.

Do you not understand the difference between sexual acts and sexual orientation?   Acts are (usually) by choice, orientation is not.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.2.20  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @14.2.19    6 years ago

NO, that is the opinion of those who support such behavior.  There is NO such thing as sexual orientation.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.2.21  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.20    6 years ago
There is NO such thing as sexual orientation .

You need to write a paper explaining your findings to the  American Psychological Association .   What, again, are your research credentials?

Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions to men, women or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person's sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors and membership in a community of others who share those attractions. Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. However, sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories: heterosexual (having emotional, romantic or sexual attractions to members of the other sex), gay/lesbian (having emotional, romantic or sexual attractions to members of one's own sex) and bisexual (having emotional, romantic or sexual attractions to both men and women). This range of behaviors and attractions has been described in various cultures and nations throughout the world. Many cultures use identity labels to describe people who express these attractions. In the United States the most frequent labels are lesbians (women attracted to women), gay men (men attracted to men), and bisexual people (men or women attracted to both sexes). However, some people may use different labels or none at all.

There is NO such thing as sexual orientation.

You do not consider yourself heterosexual?

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.2.22  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @14.2.21    6 years ago

Peer Review Study shows NO evidence that Same Sex Orientation if Immutable

The reason was very simple. There is not only no scientific evidence that sexual orientation is immutable, there is conclusive scientific evidence that most people who experience exclusive same-sex attraction end up developing an interest in the opposite sex over time.

This is so well established by now that scholars are busy  publishing methods  to measure  frequency  of sexual orientation change in massive longitudinal studies of youth and young adults. (I.e., How many times in nine years can we expect a homosexual sexual orientation to change? Is the change  associated with lifestyle habits ? Who changes more frequently: males or females?)

That basic fact was already settled science when  Obergefell  came before the Supreme Court. Half a dozen rigorous studies could be cited from the late 1990s and early 2000s, but the most noteworthy probably remains a  Cornell-led study  published in 2007.

A 1 Percent Chance of Consistent Same-Sex Attraction

In this study, Dr. Rich Savin-Williams examined a representative sample of more than 12,000 American youth, following each from the age of 16 to 22. Rather than rely on an individual’s reconstruction of his or her past based on current identity, researchers met with subjects three times throughout the six-year period. Each time, they asked individuals (via a computer, to protect privacy) whether they had had a romantic attraction to a member of the opposite or same sex since their last interview.

For instance, 17-year-old males were asked if, in the past year, they had had a romantic attraction to another male or female. About 1.5 percent reported  only  having a romantic attraction to other males. Five years later, when that 1.5 percent were asked about their romantic attractions since last interview, the overwhelming majority (70 percent) reported a 180-degree flip in their sexual orientation—they  only  had romantic feelings for women.

Similarly, among females, about 40 percent switched from exclusive same-sex attraction to exclusive opposite-sex attraction. Most of the rest (45 percent of the total) reported they had feelings for both men and women. Only 1 percent of women who, at 17, reported a full year of exclusive same-sex attraction reported a similar experience in the five years that followed.

Leftist judges have been bamboozled into basing their legal analysis on the assumption that if an 18-year-old woman has exclusive same-sex attraction, some form of same-sex commitment is her  only  path to “marriage” because her condition is “immutable.” But, on expert evidence, her condition has only a 1 percent chance of lasting five years!

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.2.23  Gordy327  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.20    6 years ago

The AMA and APA, among other organizations, disagree with you! 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.2.24  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @14.2.21    6 years ago

In Obergefell, Indeed, Kennedy did cite a  partisan brief  put together by politically active members of the American Psychological Association.

But although this brief confidently combated “stereotype-based rationales that the Equal Protection Clause was designed to prohibit” and was at pains to point out that “most” of the studies and literature reviews it cited had been published in “reputable, peer-reviewed academic journals,” it did not dare to assert that sexual orientation was immutable.

The reason was very simple. There is not only no scientific evidence that sexual orientation is immutable, there is conclusive scientific evidence that most people who experience exclusive same-sex attraction end up developing an interest in the opposite sex over time.

This is so well established by now that scholars are busy  publishing methods  to measure  frequency  of sexual orientation change in massive longitudinal studies of youth and young adults. (I.e., How many times in nine years can we expect a homosexual sexual orientation to change? Is the change  associated with lifestyle habits ? Who changes more frequently: males or females?)

That basic fact was already settled science when  Obergefell  came before the Supreme Court. Half a dozen rigorous studies could be cited from the late 1990s and early 2000s, 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.2.25  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @14.2.21    6 years ago

BTW, that citation is not science, it is opinion.

being heterosexual is not an orientation. It's called normal.  Behaving as God created you.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.2.26  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.22    6 years ago
Peer Review Study shows NO evidence that Same Sex Orientation if Immutable

Paraphrasing this:  a study cannot find any evidence that homosexuality cannot be changed.

First, this recognizes sexual orientation.   So there IS a thing a sexual orientation.

Second, this is basically an argument from ignorance.   Not finding evidence that homosexuality cannot be changed is NOT evidence that iit CAN be changed.   

... there is conclusive scientific evidence that most people who experience exclusive same-sex attraction end up developing an interest in the opposite sex over time.

Thinking 2     

Well, at your age, you should have experienced quite a range of changes.    Could you explain what your life was like during your gay phase  or are you one of the minority whose sexual orientation DID NOT change?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.2.27  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.25    6 years ago
BTW, that citation is not science, it is opinion.

Yes, I know your opinion that there is no such thing as sexual orientation is not science.   Demonstrably so.   That is why your claim is so ridiculous.

It's called normal.  Behaving as God created you.

So every homosexual creature (yes, that includes animals other than homo sapiens) is (per you) deliberately going against their God-given nature?    How do you explain this to your fellow Christians who happen to be homosexual?   

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.2.28  livefreeordie  replied to  Gordy327 @14.2.23    6 years ago

Pro homosexual behavior advocates will cite studies by the American Psychological Association and call them scientific proof.

This is laughable

Psychology isn't science.

Why can we definitively say that? Because psychology often does not meet the five basic requirements for a field to be considered scientifically rigorous: clearly defined terminology, quantifiability, highly controlled experimental conditions, reproducibility and, finally, predictability and testability.

To be fair, not all psychology research is equally wishy-washy. Some research is far more scientifically rigorous. And the field often yields interesting and important insights.

But to claim it is "science" is inaccurate. Actually, it's worse than that. It's an attempt to redefine science. Science, redefined, is no longer the empirical analysis of the natural world; instead, it is any topic that sprinkles a few numbers around. This is dangerous because, under such a loose definition, anything can qualify as science. And when anything qualifies as science, science can no longer claim to have a unique grasp on secular truth.

That's why scientists dismiss psychologists. They're rightfully defending their intellectual turf.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.2.29  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @14.2.26    6 years ago

there never has been a majority who "changed".  Yes behaviors change.  But anyone with any true character and moral discipline will not more engage in homosexual acts then they will murder or rape.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.2.30  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @14.2.27    6 years ago

You cannot be a Christian who obeys Jesus and His teachings and engage in homosexual behavior or lifestyle.  Jesus condemned it 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.2.31  livefreeordie  replied to  Gordy327 @14.2.23    6 years ago

First of all the AMA has NO scientific evidence or peer reviewed papers proving that there is such a thing as biological same sex orientation

Secondly, Only 20-30% of physicians belong to the AMA

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
14.2.32  JBB  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.30    6 years ago
Jesus condemned it

Please provide chapter and verse where Jesus Himself in any way condemns homosexuality.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.2.33  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.30    6 years ago
You cannot be a Christian who obeys Jesus and His teachings and engage in homosexual behavior or lifestyle.  Jesus condemned it

The NT labels it as a sin.   The OT condemned homosexual acts between two males.    

You are not going to claim that one cannot be a Christian if one sins are you?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.2.34  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.28    6 years ago

Psychology generally disagrees with your opinion of sexual orientation so in response you dismiss the entire field of psychology.   Face Palm

Not a persuasive argument.   

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.2.35  Skrekk  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.31    6 years ago
First of all the AMA has NO scientific evidence or peer reviewed papers proving that there is such a thing as biological same sex orientation

I'm not surprised that there are still Christian extremists who are in denial of the science on this issue given that these are the same people who deny science on climate change and any other topic which doesn't fit into their very narrow Bronze-age view of the world.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.2.36  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.30    6 years ago
You cannot be a Christian who obeys Jesus and His teachings and engage in homosexual behavior or lifestyle.

Jesus never mentioned homosexuality,

While it’s reasonable to assume that Jesus and his fellow Jews in first-century Palestine would have disapproved of gay sex, there is no record of his ever having mentioned homosexuality, let alone expressed particular revulsion about it. . . . Never in the Bible does Jesus himself offer an explicit prohibition of homosexuality.
 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.2.37  Skrekk  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.29    6 years ago

Removed

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.2.38  epistte  replied to  Skrekk @14.2.37    6 years ago
Removed for context 

It sounds to me like someone is struggling with gay desires and trying desperately to stay in the closet.  I've never once wanted to kiss a woman and felt the need to suppress it. 

Maybe they should be bisexual, just for the weekend in a city a hundred miles away. Attend the Pride parade to dip their toe in the water, so to speak............

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.2.39  Gordy327  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.25    6 years ago
being heterosexual is not an orientation.

Yes. it is!

It's called normal.

It's as normal as homosexuality, bisexuality, and asexuality is.

Behaving as God created you.

By that reasoning, then gays are being normal, as that's how your so called god created them!

Pro homosexual behavior advocates will cite studies by the American Psychological Association and call them scientific proof.

The APA conducts and publishes scientific studies. Apparently, you don't understand what constitutes a scientific study.

Psychology isn't science.

Which is demonstrably false. Psychology falls under the definition of a science as it utilizes scientific methodology in its research and therapies.

Yes behaviors change.

Behavior isn't the question. It's about orientation.

You cannot be a Christian who obeys Jesus and His teachings and engage in homosexual behavior or lifestyle.

No True Scotsman.

First of all the AMA has NO scientific evidence or peer reviewed papers proving that there is such a thing as biological same sex orientation

There are plenty of studies providing evidence from the AMA and APA alone. I cited one such study in a previous post above.

Secondly, Only 20-30% of physicians belong to the AMA

There are over 200,000 AMA members. The AMA also publishes and cites peer-reviewed scholarly works in various scientific journals. Your attempt to dismiss them due solely to membership numbers is quite laughable and seemingly desperate.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.2.40  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.22    6 years ago

In 14.2.20 you said that there is NO SUCH THING as sexual orientation and then in 14.2.22 you post a study about 'SEXUAL OREINTATION' to bolster your position.

It drips with hypocrisy. 

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.2.41  Skrekk  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.10    6 years ago
The ex-gays are living proof.

What "ex-gays"?    The president of the largest such group, Exodus International, said that none of their victims actually changed their sexual orientation.   He also apologized for the harm he and Exodus had caused and for the people they had driven to suicide.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
14.2.42  CB  replied to  livefreeordie @14.2.30    6 years ago

What means this, Pastor? For the sake of discussion: What is the meaning in 'saved by faith alone'? (You probably will not care to have this discussion with me - on the other hand my life's experience with the topic has relevance and some surprises.)

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
14.2.43  sandy-2021492  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.1    6 years ago
By proof, I mean uncontroverted rather than a theory.

You reveal that you don't understand science all that well.

Germ theory is "just a theory".

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
14.2.44  CB  replied to  CB @14.2.42    6 years ago

Well, Pastor. . . .?

This is a PROBLEM I have with sanctimonious, "Do as I say" people, -  the one-way communications standard makes me want to gag!

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.2.45  1ofmany  replied to  Skrekk @14.2.41    6 years ago
What "ex-gays"?   

The ones referenced in the article. 

The president of the largest such group, Exodus International, said that none of their victims actually changed their sexual orientation.

What does that have to do with people who tell you they’re no longer gay, especially when the only way you know anybody is gay in the first place is because they tell you.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.2.46  1ofmany  replied to  sandy-2021492 @14.2.43    6 years ago

You reveal that you don't understand science all that well.

Germ theory is "just a theory".

Perhaps I should have used the word hypothesis because your “theory” has not been substantiated by a body of facts that can be repeatedly confirmed. I’m getting tired of bandying this back and forth. We will never agree so we can just agree to disagree.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.2.47  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.45    6 years ago
What does that have to do with people who tell you they’re no longer gay, especially when the only way you know anybody is gay in the first place is because they tell you.

That just means they're lying or in denial.

The ones referenced in the article.

You mean the ones where there is no objective determination to support the assertion of being "ex-gay?"

We will never agree so we can just agree to disagree.

You're free to be wrong on the issue!

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.2.48  1ofmany  replied to  Gordy327 @14.2.47    6 years ago
What does that have to do with people who tell you they’re no longer gay, especially when the only way you know anybody is gay in the first place is because they tell you.

That just means they're lying or in denial.

Maybe they were lying and in denial when they told you they were gay. If they say what you want to hear, then they’re being honest. But if they say they’ve changed, they’re in denial. That way you’re always right. 

The ones referenced in the article.

You mean the ones where there is no objective determination to support the assertion of being "ex-gay?"

We have no objective proof that anybody is gay. All we have is their belief.

We will never agree so we can just agree to disagree.

You're free to be wrong on the issue!

So are you and you get more free each day. Lol

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.2.49  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.48    6 years ago
Maybe they were lying and in denial when they told you they were gay.

Then they weren't gay to begin with. So they're either straight or gay. Which only shows orientation is not something that can be changed. But then, considering the stigmatization gays feel from bigots and homophobes, especially those who think homosexuality is abnormal or can be "cured," makes it rather odd for someone to claim they are gay when they're not.

If they say what you want to hear, then they’re being honest. But if they say they’ve changed, they’re in denial. That way you’re always right.

They're either lying or they're not.

We have no objective proof that anybody is gay. All we have is their belief.

Since when is sexual orientation a belief? A person usually knows their sexual orientation in their teens.

So are you and you get more free each day. Lol

Except I'm not. Big difference!

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.2.50  Dulay  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.45    6 years ago
What does that have to do with people who tell you they’re no longer gay, especially when the only way you know anybody is gay in the first place is because they tell you.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. In another seed, you said that they make their bedroom behavior public and then demand that society accept it as normal.

So WHICH is it. Do only know people are gay because the TELL you or do you know because they're fucking in front of you and demanding applause? 

Please pick one. 

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.2.51  Skrekk  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.45    6 years ago
What "ex-gays"?   

The ones referenced in the article. 

You're referring to the small handful of bible-babblers who claim to be "ex-gay" or "ex-trans"?    Seems like anti-LGBT groups recycle the same handful of folks at Christian extremist events all across the country, yet none of these folks have ever provided any evidence to support their claims.    Extraordinary claims like this require some degree of actual evidence, like having an independent psychologist test their degree of arousal to same-sex images using a plethysmometer.    So far none of these "ex-gay" nuts have done so.    Get back to me when they have.

.

The president of the largest such group, Exodus International, said that none of their victims actually changed their sexual orientation.

What does that have to do with people who tell you they’re no longer gay, especially when the only way you know anybody is gay in the first place is because they tell you.

Sounds like you're now claiming that sexual orientation isn't a "behavior" but a neurological trait.   You seem either quite confused or extremely ignorant and thus are contradicting yourself.

.

Note that the hate group which organized the event described in the seed was NARTH which was founded by several homophobic and superstitious quacks like Joseph Nicolosi (dead) and George "rent boy" Rekers who was recently caught parading through Europe with a same-sex prostitute he had hired as his traveling companion.      They founded NARTH not only to scam superstitious gay folks out of their money, but also because no credible peer-reviewed scientific journal would publish their nonsense.   Pretty much all of these anti-LGBT hate groups seem to be run by psychologically disturbed and superstitious gay folks who are in deep denial of their own sexuality.     Now that the lead quack is dead it's not clear if NARTH still exists.     Rekers is still alive but NARTH dropped him from their list of founders because he's still screwing same-sex prostitutes.    Rekers also lost credibility a decade or so ago when the courts no longer were willing to treat him as an expert witness on this or any other issue after his claims were fully debunked by a Florida court in an adoption case.   At this point he's nothing more than a punch line, just like Marcus Bachmann and all the other "ex-gay" nuts. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
14.2.52  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.48    6 years ago
Maybe they were lying and in denial when they told you they were gay. If they say what you want to hear, then they’re being honest. But if they say they’ve changed, they’re in denial.

So they spend the time and money trying to convert, but they were just "lying" about being gay? I think it's far more likely they are lying to themselves that it worked because that's what all their friends and family and whoever paid for their conversion therapy wants to believe.

This reminds me of a TV advertisement for a drug rehab program in my area that one of the main spokesman says "I used to be addicted to drugs, now I'm not...". It always hits me because most real addicts admit that they are still addicts, it never really goes away completely, they can now just deal with not being an active user. So yes, I believe some who go through conversion therapy can change to be non-active homosexuals, blocking their innate desires and not acting on their impulses, but that's not really being "cured" of being gay. They're still gay, they're just non-practicing homosexuals now. Some in my old church even got married to other non-practicing lesbians because having a butch and an effeminate male married is as close as they could get to the desired relationship they were naturally inclined to while still being accepted in the religious community. It's sad that they can't just be who they were born to be but have to suffer at the hands of bigots and assholes who refuse to accept them and ridicule, discriminate and castigate them for being themselves. Very sad.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.2.53  Dulay  replied to  1ofmany @14.2.48    6 years ago
We have no objective proof that anybody is gay. All we have is their belief.

There you go again. You said that they make their bedroom behavior public and demand that society accept it. 

Now you say there is no objective proof that they are gay.

I don't know about you but I would say that having sex with someone of the same sex in public, which you insist that they do, is a pretty fucking good objective indication that you're gay.

So again, I ask you to PICK ONE. 

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.2.54  Skrekk  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @14.2.52    6 years ago
So yes, I believe some who go through conversion therapy can change to be non-active homosexuals, blocking their innate desires and not acting on their impulses, but that's not really being "cured" of being gay. They're still gay, they're just non-practicing homosexuals now.

That describes Alan Chambers, the president of by far the largest (and now defunct) "ex-gay" group in the world, Exodus International.   

He's still married to a woman but now admits that he's not sexually attracted to women at all and never has been.    Several years ago he also admitted that none of the victims of Exodus had ever changed their orientation, and he apologized to the families of the gay folks who committed suicide due to their involvement with Exodus.

I do give the guy credit for finally accepting himself and being honest about it, as well as for his apology for all the harm he caused other people.   But I sure couldn't stay in a marriage like that.    Seems pretty twisted although I know it was once common for gay folks in denial to marry the wrong gender.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.3  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14    6 years ago
Homosexuality is a behavior not an immutable characteristic like race and there is no scientific proof to the contrary.

Too bad for you that most reputable organizations like the AMA and APA among others all disagree with you. There is no scientific proof that sexual orientation is a choice!

Brain scans have proven absolutely nothing.

Except that there are differences in brain structure.

If homosexuality were genetic, then identical twins would both be either straight or gay but they’re not.

Identical twins are more likely to have the same sexual orientation. According to Dawood, Bailey, and Martin (2009), studies have found significantly higher concordance in sexual orientation among identical compared to non-identical twins. What this means is that the more genes two people share in common, the more likely they are to have the same sexual orientation. So, identical twins are more likely to have the same sexuality than non-identical twins.

The behavior is no more genetic than a foot fetish or any other abnormal sexual behavior.

You confuse behavior with orientation.

Most of the nonsense passed off as science is psycho-babble from psychologists. However, psychology is not a science and psychologists are not scientists.

In other words, they prove you wrong and so you're automatically dismissive and prefer to keep your head buried in the sand on the subject. And yes, psychology is considered a science because it utilizes the scientific method for measuring outcomes and treatments. 

The problem with reparative therapy is not that it can’t work but that it might. If it works, then the gay identity narrative falls apart because if homosexuality is immutable, then it can’t be changed but if you change it then it obviously isn’t immutable.

Reparative therapy is quack "medicine." Not only does it not work, it has been shown to cause harm. No reputable medical organization supports or advocates reparative therapy.

. This is ridiculous.

Much like all your arguments and posts.

People have the basic human right to be normal. Denying them the chance to be normal should be deemed unconstitutional.

Who are you to say who or what is "normal?" Who are you to make that determination for anyone else? Are left handed people abnormal? Or redheads?

References:

Dawood, K., Bailey, J. M., & Martin, N. G. (2009). Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation. In Y. Kim (Ed.), Handbook of Behavioral Genetics (pp. 269– 280). New York, NY: Springer.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.3.1  1ofmany  replied to  Gordy327 @14.3    6 years ago

Science has never established that homosexuality is nature and not nurture. At best, the matter is unresolved.

A brain scan has never been determined to establish anything conclusive. You can’t identify a homosexual by scanning his brain.

If homosexuality were genetic, then they would always either be homosexual or heterosexual because they share the same genes. But they aren’t the same. 

The only thing reparative therapy harms is your narrative. The biological purpose of sex is to perpetuate the species. Every other use of our sexual organs is, to one degree or another, deviant and abnormal by definition. In any event, if other people want to conform to nature and be normal, why do you have to stick your nose in it? Let them choose, not you. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.3.2  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.1    6 years ago
Science has never established that homosexuality is nature and not nurture. At best, the matter is unresolved.

By that *logic* science has also never established that heterosexuality is nature and not nurture either. but science does say sexual orientation has a genetic component.

A brain scan has never been determined to establish anything conclusive. You can’t identify a homosexual by scanning his brain.

Wrong again! National geographic even published an article centered on such a study, and stated "researchers found resemblances in the brain's physical structure and size as well as the strength of neural connections among gay people and straight people of the opposite sex." And that was from 10 years ago too.

If homosexuality were genetic, then they would always either be homosexual or heterosexual because they share the same genes. But they aren’t the same.

Your understanding of genetics is elementary at best.

The only thing reparative therapy harms is your narrative.

Not according to the medical community. The APA itself even reports: 

The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone reparative therapy relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed. Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as reparative or conversion therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation.

in other words, there is no credible science or study which supports reparative therapy as a beneficial "treatment" in the slightest. Neither have you offered anything to support your own assertions!

The biological purpose of sex is to perpetuate the species.

The issue is sexual orientation, not sex or procreation. Besides, homosexuals are capable of reproduction too. Homosexuality does not equal infertility.

Every other use of our sexual organs is, to one degree or another, deviant and abnormal by definition.

According to whose definition? Yo0urs? How laughable! And what difference does it make how sexual organs are used? Do you consider hetero couples that use their genitals for oral/anal sex to be deviant? 

In any event, if other people want to conform to nature and be normal, why do you have to stick your nose in it?

They already are normal. It's people like you and those who advocate reparative therapy who say they are not! Why do you care or have to stick your nose into their business or sexual relations?

Let them choose, not you.

I never said they couldn't choose. They are free to do so. But give them ALL the correct information so they can make an informed choice: sexual orientation is inborn and normal, regardless how it's expressed and reparative therapy is quack medicine and potentially harmful.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.3.3  1ofmany  replied to  Gordy327 @14.3.2    6 years ago

Good, then you agree that conversion therapy should be a choice. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.3.4  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.3    6 years ago
Good, then you agree that conversion therapy should be a choice.

A personal choice. Not a medical option. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.3.5  Dulay  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.1    6 years ago
Science has never established that homosexuality is nature and not nurture. At best, the matter is unresolved.

The EXACT same can be said about heterosexuality. 

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.3.6  1ofmany  replied to  Dulay @14.3.5    6 years ago

The exact same cannot be said of heterosexuality. It is obviously nature because it’s the only means by which we perpetuate our species.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.3.7  epistte  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.3    6 years ago
Good, then you agree that conversion therapy should be a choice.

Conversion therapy is both ineffective and dangerous. The former leader of Exodus International aggrees with the APA on this matter,

Exodus International President Alan Chambers said that the board made the move "after a year of dialogue and prayer about the organization's place in a changing culture." Alan Chambers repudiated one part of the organization's mission in a nearly hour-long talk at Exodus International's 38th annual meeting:

I am sorry for the pain and hurt many of you have experienced. I am sorry that some of you spent years working through the shame and guilt you felt when your attractions didn’t change. I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents.

There is absolutely no medical evidence that supports the claim you can modify your sexual orientation, and it is very dangerous to attempt it

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.3.8  epistte  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.6    6 years ago
The exact same cannot be said of heterosexuality. It is obviously nature because it’s the only means by which we perpetuate our species.

The Earth is currently overpopulated with humans so that is not a problem. We have become a pest species because of both our population and our destruction of the environment that we depend on to survive. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
14.3.9  charger 383  replied to  epistte @14.3.8    6 years ago

overpopulation is the biggest problem and multiplies all other problems

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.3.11  Dulay  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.6    6 years ago
The exact same cannot be said of heterosexuality. It is obviously nature because it’s the only means by which we perpetuate our species.

That's just a biological function. Lesbians get pregnant and Gay men impregnate women all the time. I know dozens of LGBT people that have kids. That doesn't mean they're heterosexual. 

BTFW, a turkey baster works just fine...

Sexuality is NOT a biological function. 

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Guide
14.3.12  Raven Wing  replied to  epistte @14.3.8    6 years ago
The Earth is currently overpopulated with humans so that is not a problem. We have become a pest species because of both our population and our destruction of the environment that we depend on to survive.

Spot on!!!!  I bow to you  Clapping

Excellent comment, and nothing could be more truthful. Humans are destroying themselves by destroying the very environment they must depend on to survive on this planet. Yet, those who are so greedy for the money they can garner from its destruction continue to deny that fact. But, humans are not the only ones that depend on a healthy environment for survival, and without all the other living species that share this planet, man alone can not survive.

There is a Native American saying; "We do not inherit the world from our ancestors. We borrow it from our children."

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.3.13  Gordy327  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.6    6 years ago
The exact same cannot be said of heterosexuality. It is obviously nature because it’s the only means by which we perpetuate our species.

Homosexuality also exists in nature and has been observed in thousands of species.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Guide
14.3.14  Raven Wing  replied to  Gordy327 @14.3.13    6 years ago
Homosexuality also exists in nature and has been observed in thousands of species.

Exactly. And with many species it is due to their own nature, not something they chose to be, not that any amount of 'therapy' will change. Bonobos are a prime example. And the human specie is simply one of the thousands, if not millions, of other species here on earth. Some of which are in their own way more advanced than the human specie. 

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.3.15  epistte  replied to  Raven Wing @14.3.12    6 years ago
There is a Native American saying; "We do not inherit the world from our ancestors. We borrow it from our children."

I love this statement. It needs to be better known by the population at large because it is perfect description of what it means toi be an enviromentalist.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.3.16  livefreeordie  replied to  epistte @14.3.8    6 years ago

Nonsense. Overpopulation is a myth

You can fit the world's population in the State of Texas and EVERY individual would have 1000 SQ FT of living space.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.3.17  livefreeordie  replied to  Gordy327 @14.3.13    6 years ago

Deleted, skirting & sweeping  {SP}

Animals don't make moral choices.  Dog's hump legs and furniture, does that make it a normal animal "orientation" for humans?

Deleted, skirting & sweeping  {SP}

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
14.3.18  charger 383  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.16    6 years ago
1000 SQ FT of living space.

you want to live in 1000 SQ FT?  I don't want to and I need space for my dogs, garden, workshop and stuff.  

Overcrowding is bad

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Guide
14.3.19  Raven Wing  replied to  epistte @14.3.15    6 years ago
It needs to be better known by the population at large because it is perfect description of what it means toi be an enviromentalist.

I think so too. However, there are too many who think that anything that does not agree with their take on the environment is not worthy of being repeated or seen. 

In most Native American Tribes are guardians of Mother Earth, and taking good care of Mother Earth is an essential part of their life, as they know that the only way mankind can survive is by having a healthy environment. 

It is also important that we leave the world a better place for the future generations than when we got it. But, the attacks by our government on our National Parks by opening them up to mining and oil drilling, and disregarding the safety and health of our environment in general, is putting future generations at risk. Clean air, clean, safe water, and healthy food sources is the only way to sustain our own generation and those to come.

However, the money grubbers and their greed for more of it is taking over hte common sense of our government. And they will soon find out that Karma really is a B*tch.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.3.20  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.16    6 years ago
You can fit the world's population in the State of Texas and EVERY individual would have 1000 SQ FT of living space.

Resources are the issue, not space.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.3.21  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.16    6 years ago
You can fit the world's population in the State of Texas and EVERY individual would have 1000 SQ FT of living space.

You forgot the food to feed them all and the pollution that our lives create. 

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.3.22  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.17    6 years ago
Dog's hump legs and furniture, does that make it a normal animal "orientation" for humans?

Animals do exhibit morality. Elephants and dolphins are famous for their morality, both among the species and toward others. 

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
14.3.23  GregTx  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.16    6 years ago

Fuck that!

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.3.24  Skrekk  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.1    6 years ago
Science has never established that homosexuality is nature and not nurture.

That's false, both for heterosexuality and homosexuality.    The sexual orientation of mice can be consistently controlled via a hormonal switch during a critical development period in utero.   There's no reason to expect that underlying mechanism is any different in humans but it would be unethical (and illegal) to perform those experiments on human fetuses.    However there's still quite a lot known about the mechanism(s) in humans:

It also helps explain the genetic and epigenetic statistical correlation to sexual orientation (like Xq28 for gay men) and explains why the correlation isn't absolute, because it depends on the prenatal hormone environment during a specific development period.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
14.3.25  epistte  replied to  GregTx @14.3.23    6 years ago

Please practice safe sex 'cause we don't need more humans.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.3.26  Gordy327  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.16    6 years ago
Nonsense. Overpopulation is a myth You can fit the world's population in the State of Texas and EVERY individual would have 1000 SQ FT of living space.

Would a family be able to live comfortably in 1000 sq. ft.? Even a family of 2 would find that cramped. Never mind the family of 3 or 4 or more. Overpopulation is not just a numbers game. it's also about the scarcity of resources and the provision of basic needs. You seem to ignore quality of life over quantity. And at almost 8 billion people, it's safe to say the Earth is over populated.

Animals don't make moral choices.

So the dog who defends or saves their owner isn't moral?

Dog's hump legs and furniture, does that make it a normal animal "orientation" for humans?

No, that just makes humans (like dogs) horny! Dog humping various things is analogous to humans using sex toys to pleasure themselves. nothing wrong with that.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.3.27  1ofmany  replied to  Skrekk @14.3.24    6 years ago

As near as I can tell, your article simply reviews some “evidence” in support of nature but it’s nothing that remotely approaches being conclusive. All this effort to prove the unprovable. It’s a behavior. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.3.29  Gordy327  replied to  XDm9mm @14.3.28    6 years ago

In the real world, most people would probably prefer more living space if the option was available, especially for families. The effects of overcrowding can be quite detrimental to both individual health and the environment. Overpopulation only exacerbates those effects.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.3.30  Skrekk  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.27    6 years ago
It’s a behavior.

Your evidence for that claim is what exactly?   It's quite odd to describe attraction as a "behavior" or to claim that one has conscious control over which gender one is attracted to.

Perhaps you speak from personal experience?   If so then you might actually be bisexual and are misinterpreting your attraction to both genders.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
14.3.31  sandy-2021492  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.1    6 years ago
if other people want to conform to nature and be normal, why do you have to stick your nose in it? Let them choose, not you.

What happens when the parents of gay children wish to subject those children to mental abuse touted as "treatment" that may lead to their harm?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
14.3.32  sandy-2021492  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.16    6 years ago
You can fit the world's population in the State of Texas and EVERY individual would have 1000 SQ FT of living space.

And where would they grow their food?

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.3.33  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.16    6 years ago
You can fit the world's population in the State of Texas and EVERY individual would have 1000 SQ FT of living space.

The resources would run out in a day. There are towns in Texas that are ALREADY out of water. Add that to the FACT that Texas has allowed fossil fuel producers to shit all over their environment and Texas will be 'enjoying' sick people and flora and fauna into perpetuity. In short, Texas can't even sustain the people already living there.

Here is an article about the 'geniuses' that are supposed to 'protect the environment' in Texas have allowed to happen:

Radioactive Waste Dump over Ogallala Aquifer?

BTW, here is a map of the states that use the Ogallala aquafer for DRINKING water:

th.jpg

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.3.34  Skrekk  replied to  sandy-2021492 @14.3.31    6 years ago
What happens when the parents of gay children wish to subject those children to mental abuse touted as "treatment" that may lead to their harm?

If those parents are Christian extremists they'll just murder their gay kids as we've seen in several recent cases, or they'll try to drive them to suicide through "conversion" quackery.

 
 
 
1ofmany
Sophomore Silent
14.3.35  1ofmany  replied to  sandy-2021492 @14.3.31    6 years ago
What happens when the parents of gay children wish to subject those children to mental abuse touted as "treatment" that may lead to their harm?

The question is based on an implicit assumption that the child doesn’t have a problem and the treatment doesn’t work. I’d leave it to the parents to figure out what’s best and I’ll assume that it doesn’t include torturing their own children. 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
14.3.36  livefreeordie  replied to  sandy-2021492 @14.3.32    6 years ago

Seems to me that you are missing the point.  It's a frame of reference. it doesn't mean putting the entire world in Texas. It means the world is not overpopulated. it's a leftist myth.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
14.3.37  sandy-2021492  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.36    6 years ago

And we still need to be able to produce food.  And provide water.  And the resources to build shelters.  Are you under the illusion that the planet's ability to provide such resources is limitless?  Many areas already have water shortages.  Hell, Ireland is even under water restrictions, and it typically has a damp climate.  Large areas of the Earth are not suitable for agriculture of any kind.  Having space to occupy does not equate to having the resources to live.  

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
14.3.38  sandy-2021492  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.35    6 years ago
I’ll assume that it doesn’t include torturing their own children.

But it does.  And the children don't have a problem, except in the bigotry they encounter.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.3.39  Skrekk  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.6    6 years ago
The exact same cannot be said of heterosexuality. It is obviously nature because it’s the only means by which we perpetuate our species.

If variations in sexual orientation aren't natural then how do you explain the 1500+ other animal species in which same-sex sexual behavior has been observed, including same-sex pair bonding?    Are those animal species going to too many pride parades or is it due to "bad" parenting like Christian extremist quacks like Nicolosi claimed?   Maybe those animals aren't reading their bible-babble enough so they don't realize what's "natural"?

Or could it be that your Bronze-age superstitions are inadequate and preventing you from comprehending the current science on these issues?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.3.40  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.36    6 years ago
 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
14.3.41  Skrekk  replied to  1ofmany @14.3.35    6 years ago
The question is based on an implicit assumption that the child doesn’t have a problem and the treatment doesn’t work.

You mean a "treatment" which has no evidence whatsoever of producing the claimed results, but which tends to drive folks to suicide or other self-destructive behavior?

The good news is that the witch doctor at your favorite house of superstition is free to exorcise your straight demonz or your gay demonz, but they just can't charge you for the privilege of harming yourself in that way.    But by all means go for it!

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
14.3.42  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.36    6 years ago
It's a frame of reference.

It's a moronic frame of reference. Resources MATTER. Arable land MATTERS. Humans do not live on 'space' alone. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
14.3.43  Gordy327  replied to  livefreeordie @14.3.36    6 years ago
It means the world is not overpopulated. it's a leftist myth.

Wrong! When there are billions of people worldwide living in famine, poverty, or in overcrowded areas, then that means there is an overpopulation. Resources are becoming increasingly scarce. Adequate food or fresh water is not always available or in abundance. Natural habitats are being destroyed to accommodate increasing number of people or because of pollution associated with large populations. Tell me, at what point do you think the world will be overpopulated? With almost 8 billion people now, it's obvious and logical that continued population growth cannot be sustained indefinitely. Neither can the consumption of natural resources.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
15  CB    6 years ago

Too many voices. I will wait for the next 'train' on this topic. Try to catch it early! (Smile.)

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
15.1  TᵢG  replied to  CB @15    6 years ago

I am surprised you let this stand:

livefreeordie  @ 14.2.30   - You cannot be a Christian who obeys Jesus and His teachings and engage in homosexual behavior or lifestyle.  Jesus condemned it 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
15.1.1  CB  replied to  TᵢG @15.1    6 years ago

I did not see it, because I became overwhelmed by the volume and simply stopped reading. I 'missed' the discussion. But thanks for informing me. (Smile.)

Sigh! I will write,. . .something, to our resident Pastor. (Peace.)

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
16      6 years ago

This chart shows new HIV diagnoses in the United States in 2016 for the most-affected subpopulations. Black male to male sexual contact = 10,223; Hispanic/Latino male to male sexual contact = 7,425; white male to male sexual contact = 7,390; black heterosexual women = 4,189; black heterosexual men = 1,926; white heterosexual women = 1,032; Hispanic/Latina heterosexual women = 1,025.

The way their God Evolution, deals with Deviance, 

Question::

 Why does evolution keep that " infection " lower then 4%?

 What is apoptosis and how do CD 4 T cells Activate it and why?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
16.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  @16    6 years ago

Odd that heterosexuals still get infected, if heterosexuality is supposed to protect us from infection.

I notice you don't post any stats concerning HIV rates for lesbian women.  Why is that?

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
16.1.1  lennylynx  replied to  sandy-2021492 @16.1    6 years ago

By EA's logic, lesbians must be God's chosen people!

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
16.1.2    replied to  sandy-2021492 @16.1    6 years ago
I notice you don't post any stats concerning HIV rates for lesbian women.

E.A Why do YOU not do it?

And I think you accusation IS false!

Shows what YOUR Agenda is all about, does it not?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
16.1.3  sandy-2021492  replied to  @16.1.2    6 years ago

What accusation have I made?

Guilty conscience?

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
16.1.4  Skrekk  replied to  sandy-2021492 @16.1    6 years ago
I notice you don't post any stats concerning HIV rates for lesbian women.  Why is that?

That would be very inconvenient for his bizarre obsession with HIV, wouldn't it?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
16.1.5  sandy-2021492  replied to  Skrekk @16.1.4    6 years ago

Wouldn't it, though?

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
16.1.6    replied to  sandy-2021492 @16.1    6 years ago
Odd that heterosexuals still get infected,

E.A  Care to tell us how they can get HIV/AIDS from their Dentist?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
16.1.7  sandy-2021492  replied to  @16.1.6    6 years ago

I thought the only way to get HIV was from gay sex, right?  Isn't that the reason for your obsession with it?

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
16.1.8    replied to  @16.1.6    6 years ago
HIV/AIDS from their Dentist?

Hundreds of VA dental patients possibly exposed to HIV, hepatitis

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
16.1.9  sandy-2021492  replied to  @16.1.8    6 years ago

How does this relate to homosexuality?

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
16.1.10    replied to  sandy-2021492 @16.1    6 years ago
heterosexuality is supposed to protect us from infection.

E.A  So again HOW do Heterosexual get HIV/AIDS?

Weekly

May 15, 1992 / 41(19);344-346

Persons using assistive technology might not be able to fully access information in this file. For assistance, please send e-mail to: mmwrq@cdc.gov. Type 508 Accommodation and the title of the report in the subject line of e-mail.
Update: Investigations of Patients Who Have Been Treated by HIV-Infected Health-Care Workers
Investigation of the patients of a Florida dentist with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) concluded that human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) was transmitted to five (0.5%) of approximately 1100 patients who were evaluated (1-3). Although the precise events resulting in transmission of HIV to these patients are not known, the findings of the investigation support direct dentist-to-patient transmission, rather than a patient-to-patient route. This report summarizes information from other published studies of patients who were treated by HIV-infected health-care workers (HCWs) (4-10), as well as from completed and ongoing unpublished investigations that have been reported to CDC.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
16.1.11  sandy-2021492  replied to  @16.1.10    6 years ago

Was the dentist gay?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
16.1.12  CB  replied to  @16.1.10    6 years ago

It does not follow. . . .  What is your "COMPLAINT"?

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
16.1.13    replied to  sandy-2021492 @16.1.7    6 years ago
I thought the only way to get HIV was from gay sex, right?

E.A  Got caught with more Misinformation  want to dig some more?

Digging a wholeDigging a wholeDigging a wholeDigging a whole

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
16.1.14  sandy-2021492  replied to  @16.1.13    6 years ago

Are you incapable of recognizing sarcasm?

You're the one who has a problem with LGBTQ people, and has demonstrated that problem all over two websites that I know of.  I'm the one who recognizes that there are other means of transmission of HIV besides homosexual sex, and furthermore, who recognizes what you'd rather ignore - lesbian sex is linked to very low infection rates with any STD.  If "our god" deals with "deviants" so harshly, why aren't lesbians getting infected at high rates?

Or were you just posting bigoted bullshit?

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
16.1.15  Skrekk  replied to  sandy-2021492 @16.1.14    6 years ago
Or were you just posting bigoted bullshit?

Yep.    That's all he ever does.    There's clearly some odd psychological motivation underlying his bigotry.

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
16.2  lennylynx  replied to  @16    6 years ago

Now EA, don't be talking about deviance again, it always gets you in trouble!

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
16.3  Skrekk  replied to  @16    6 years ago
What is apoptosis and how do CD 4 T cells Activate it and why?

How exactly does that relate to the topic of nutty superstitious folks who are in denial of their sexual orientation?

If anything their agenda and yours seem to clash........or do you also want gay folks to have sex with straight folks of the opposite gender?

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
16.4    replied to  @16    6 years ago
The way their God Evolution, deals with Deviance,

E.A   Source: CDC. Diagnoses of HIV infection in the United States and dependent areas, 2016

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
16.5  CB  replied to  @16    6 years ago
The way their God Evolution, deals with Deviance

What is this about? And, why do think you have a right to exploit it?

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
17      6 years ago

What have we learned over Time?

Remember that the Education System and the Media both have had over Half a Century to educated about " High Risk Activities " and " safe Sex " !

Source: CDC. Diagnoses of HIV infection in the United States and dependent areas, 2016
This bar chart shows HIV diagnoses in 2016 by age. Aged 13-19: 1,675; aged 20-29: 14,740; aged 30-39: 9,943; aged 40-49: 6,490; aged 50-59: 4,882; aged 60 and over: 1,930.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
17.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  @17    6 years ago

Shouldn't you be citing your sources?

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
17.1.1    replied to  sandy-2021492 @17.1    6 years ago
Shouldn't you be citing your sources?

E.A   Source: CDC. Diagnoses of HIV infection in the United States and dependent areas, 2016

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
17.1.2    replied to  sandy-2021492 @17.1    6 years ago
Shouldn't you be citing your sources?

E.A So nothing about Prevention but so much about   ????

Digging a whole

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
17.1.3  sandy-2021492  replied to  @17.1.2    6 years ago

Thanks for fixing your plagiarism, albeit belatedly.

Now, as regards the infection rates - young people make stupid decisions.  That's been going on since there were young people and stupid decisions.  That's how both homosexual and heterosexual people generally end up getting infected with any STD.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
17.1.4  Skrekk  replied to  sandy-2021492 @17.1.3    6 years ago
That's how both homosexual and heterosexual people generally end up getting infected with any STD.

And it's very revealing that he's only concerned about gays despite the overwhelming majority of cases in the world being contracted via sex between opposite-sex couples.

Plus he still hasn't explained what relevance it has to the topic, perhaps because that might reveal what his twisted obsession is really all about.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
17.2  Skrekk  replied to  @17    6 years ago
What have we learned over Time?

We've learned that some folks have a bizarre obsession with HIV even when it's completely irrelevant to the topic.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
17.2.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Skrekk @17.2    6 years ago

I remember him linking gays to dental infections on Newsvine.  It was pathetic then, too.

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
18      6 years ago

deleted

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
18.2  Skrekk  replied to  @18    6 years ago

That's a good reason not to allow dentists to marry.

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
19      6 years ago
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user image
Freshman Silent
19.1    replied to  @19    6 years ago

removed for context

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
19.1.1    replied to  @19.1    6 years ago
32 HIV-infected HCWs.

E.A  so one can get infected, by Saliva, cough droplets ( Eyes are more likely to be entry points ) Dandruff, etc::

 So what does that say about those that are in the Hospitality Industry, serving the Public?

Any one have any DATA on those infection rates?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
19.1.2  CB  replied to  @19.1.1    6 years ago

Are you serious? Are there hysterical and paranoid people surrounding in real life? Hypochondriasis?

RED FLAG: PARANOIA CAN BE CRIPPLING!

See the source image

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
19.1.3    replied to  CB @19.1.2    6 years ago

deleted

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
19.1.4  CB  replied to  @19.1.3    6 years ago

And you 'said' that to 'say' what? Because, what I interpreted from this presentation of yours, is YOU should watch out where you present and place any UNPROTECTED receptive cavities!

 
 
 
user image
Freshman Silent
19.1.5    replied to  CB @19.1.4    6 years ago
And you

E.A   Both the CDC and the Site I posted to You earlier stated ANAL Sex as a High risk!

So what is it that you do not understand?

 Can you rephrase your Question?

Better still if YOU have some Medical Information from a Suitable site Post the LINK, Many thanks!

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
20  Skrekk    6 years ago

On Wednesday the Massachusetts House voted 137-14 to ban "ex-gay" quackery and passage in the Senate and the governor's signature are all but certain.

.

In Australia some states like New South Wales are planning to criminalize the practice but in the meantime that quackery has gone underground and remains widespread.    One Senator recently exposed how much this quackery had harmed one of her constituents when he was a teen: 

">

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.1  Gordy327  replied to  Skrekk @20    6 years ago
On Wednesday the Massachusetts House voted 137-14 to ban "ex-gay" quackery and passage in the Senate and the governor's signature are all but certain.

Good! Harmful practices like that, which have no benefit, should be banned. Massachusetts has always been at the forefront of progressive thinking.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Participates
20.1.1  Skrekk  replied to  Gordy327 @20.1    6 years ago

I was a bit surprised to learn that it wasn't already banned there....no doubt due to the adverse influence of Catholicism.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  Skrekk @20.1.1    6 years ago
I was a bit surprised to learn that it wasn't already banned there....no doubt due to the adverse influence of Catholicism.

Better late than never I suppose. but then, what is the prevalence of conversion therapy in Mass.? If it was low to none, then there may not have been an immediate incentive to ban it. Still, good for Mass. for doing the right thing.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
21  Split Personality    6 years ago

Locked, seeder hasn't posted for 5 days.

Convo goes off the rails at 16 & 18

Numerous flags for off topic & Tos

 
 

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