The Troubling Internal Logic of the Far Left’s Calls for Violence
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Before comedian Louis CK was drummed out of show business for sexual misconduct, he offered a prophetic insight into the increasingly hysterical and abusive state of American politics. “People always say abortion protesters are so shrill,” (I’m paraphrasing) “But they think babies are being murdered!”
The point is a good one. If you sincerely believe that inhuman atrocities are being committed, what sort of person wouldn’t interfere with as much force as necessary to put a stop to the evil?
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, in the light of the Left’s increasingly hysterical behavior against employees of the Trump administration. From Sarah Huckabee-Sanders being driven out of a public eatery, to Maxine Waters inciting harassment against administration officials, it seems like we’re only witnessing the beginning of something that could turn very ugly very fast. In fact, in some cases it already has. Let’s not forget the shooter who took aim at a baseball diamond full of Republican lawmakers last year, injuring Rep. Steve Scalise.
Dismayed by this sort of behavior, reasonable people on both sides have called for everybody to just take a breath and calm down. We need to be able to disagree without being outright hostile. That’s what America is all about, and the alternative risks open chaos and violence, if not an actual civil war.
Of course, such appeals to decency are completely correct, but don’t expect them to do any good. If you start from the premise that the radical Left has adopted, that Donald Trump is the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler poised to bring about the end of all things good and wholesome, their actions make perfect sense.
Suppose, knowing what you know now, you found yourself transported to Germany in the early 1930s. How would you respond to Hitler’s increasing power? Would you shrug your shoulders and say “I don’t like the guy, but there’s always next election” or would you pull out all the stops to prevent the holocaust before 6 million people were brutally executed? I can’t imagine any sane person choosing the former course of action. It would be a moral imperative to stop the Nazi Party in its tracks by any means necessary, and any calls from the German media to chill out and treat people decently would be seen as irrelevant at best, and actively antagonistic at worst.
This is the situation America finds itself in today. Not that Trump is Hitler, but that a large number of people are completely convinced that he is.
The administration’s immigration policy (which I personally find abhorrent) is viewed as an atrocity equivalent to concentration camps. Never mind that the policy precedes the Trump administration, and never mind that the president who put Japanese Americans in actual concentration camps is routinely lauded as the greatest ever. Facts are flimsy things in the face of beliefs. Given those beliefs, what can the rest of us say to talk the rabble-rousers down off the ledge? I’m open to ideas.
This internal logic is what makes the current situation so scary and so dangerous. It would be one thing if a fringe political group were acting irrationally. But from the point of view of people like Maxine Waters, harassing and even initiating violence against people who are enabling Trump to carry out his plans is the most rational response.
This is how holy wars start. Each side becomes so convinced that their opponents are the embodiment of evil, that violence against them not only becomes morally permissible, but morally imperative, and anyone who refuses to help becomes complicit with the armies of darkness.
I’ve never been a fan of Donald Trump. I didn’t vote for him in 2016, and I won’t vote for him in 2020, but neither do I think he’s the antichrist about to bring about the end of days.
The difficulty is, how do we convince Americans on the verge of revolution that the president is just another flawed politician with some policies that are good, and some that are very bad?
I don’t know if it’s possible. Perhaps if Donald Trump were to leave office or lose his next election, things might get better, but I’m not so sure. The last few years of the Bush administration were marked by almost as much rage and hyperbole as we see now, spawning the phrase “Bush Derangement Syndrome.” It’s possible that anyRepublican who takes the White House will be made to symbolically fill the role of history’s worst dictator by Democratic partisans.
I regret to say that I don’t know what the solution is, but somebody better come up with one soon. When people who believe they have the moral high ground continue to suffer defeats, losing the House, the Senate, the Presidency, and now a second Supreme Court Justice, we can expect them to react like a cornered animal, lashing out at the pure injustice of it all.
As always, I suspect the answer involves more communication. The more we talk to one another, the more we realize that the people who disagree with us about politics are seldom supporters of actual genocide. Most of them turn out to be pretty decent people, in fact. But of course, communication is a two way street, and it does no good to talk if no one is willing to listen. I only hope that the time for listening is not over, and that we can reach some sort of an understanding as a nation before more people get hurt. This country can survive Donald Trump’s presidency, but only if we, the people, don’t tear it apart from the inside.
Stay tuned!
They are mostly driven by the media. They don't even realize it how they are be manipulated by the media. You can take a group of college kids and tell them about policies by Trump and no matter what you tell them they will disapprove of them until they are told they were really Obama's policies. Then they'll look all confused and not know what to say. I think most people have been fooled by the media for so long, they've lost their ability to think for themselves and quite a few are basing their beliefs on how the media has told them to think. And too many are completely ignorant of the reality.
The media has perpetrated hate and fed it daily and with 90 plus percent hate being fed into these people's minds they are fulfilling Yur Bezmenov's prediction that they will become completely brainwashed.
'Call to violence.'
Charlottesville and all the rest.
Another story for Putin's puppets.
Its so funny to watch them try to project what they are doing on the left. And wtf is this seed even about? I do remember hearing about someone saying they could shoot someone in the middle of NYC and everything would be fine, but oops, that's Trump. They are really falling down on the gaslighting
It's not officially the campaign season until the 2nd amendment threats start.
“it seems like we’re only witnessing the beginning of something that could turn very ugly very fast. In fact, in some cases it already has. Let’s not forget the shooter who took aim at a baseball diamond full of Republican lawmakers last year, injuring Rep. Steve Scalise.
Dismayed by this sort of behavior, reasonable people on both sides have called for everybody to just take a breath and calm down. We need to be able to disagree without being outright hostile. That’s what America is all about, and the alternative risks open chaos and violence, if not an actual civil war.
Of course, such appeals to decency are completely correct, but don’t expect them to do any good.”
Donald Trump has torn the country apart to the point that it may never be able to unite again.
I'm not worried. I know where the majority of domestic terrorists are on Sunday morning.
Obama had already done that. Trump is trying to restore us from that terrible socialism experiment.
...with an experiment in fascism.
The ones in their homes the entire time between 9:00 am and noon all three observance days?
No, the ones that believe incest and pedophilia are family values endorsed by their bibles.
The roots of conservatism spawn the seeds of 'the ugliness' you are referencing.
obummer started that in 2008...oh please, for the love of God...
bawahahaha...remember the civil obummer saying: "they bring a knife, you bring a gun.", etc.
I hope you don't complain when somebody calls trump trumpy or likewise
That experiment on fascism left office on 20 Jan. 2017 as an abject failure.
I can only speak for myself, but that is certainly not something I want. Our government works best when we have a balance of power. Checks and balances. Look at the Clinton administration. He had a republican congress that he learned to work with, and the economy did great....even though in the long run, he was impeached by those same people in congress that he worked with.
.
Just my opinion, but again, when both parties work together, the country tends to do well. When there is deep division, we tend to do poorly.
Let's not be naive and think reasonable people populate the masses. Bulk extremist propaganda on both sides feed the fire. It's going to get worse when people think they are justified. People are being assaulted just for wearing political clothing...and it will get worse. Many who don't engage in violence yet justify it or half heartedly condemn it. They call for it slyly as well. Like Maxine's call to harass political opponents. What does she think will happen when a mob surrounds people they are told are fascists trying to destroy democracy? If the economy tanks and more people have less to lose...... it will get bad quickly
Which is why Trump's 'some of them are good people' statement was so abhorrent.
That has been going on since the beginning of politics. Don't pretend that poor little MAGA wearers are the first to be attacked for wearing 'colors'.
Oh bullshit. Waters didn't say anything in that one speech than the Tea Party spent years doing after Obama was elected. All over the country the TP crashed townhalls and there WAS violence a plenty. Much of it instigated by 'carpet baggers' from outside local districts. I saw it up close and personal here in small town Indiana more than once.
Every single Trump 'rally' is an over the top 'call for action' and often a call to violence. Neither Trump or his sycophants can claim clean hands.
What do you expect? We have and entire generation, or two, that doesn’t have a clue about civics because it isn’t taught anymore. All expecting a participation trophy simply for “showing up.”
The redneckery on display here by these dumbasses is epic. This is not going to end well for many of them. Take it to the bank.
Another one that cannot spell Obama.. Sad.
You must be thinking of Islam. Muhammad actually had sex with a 9 year-old girl, but if I call him a pedophile, people like you will insist I am Islamophobic. So I don't know why you even bother to bring it up.
They will spend hours on websites reading propaganda but avoid educating themselves about our history like it's the plague.
Even worse, they make themselves a 'founding fathers' file of quotes that don't MEAN what their propaganda dispensers told them they mean. We have a member here that does it all the time.
Thank you and those who upvoted you for proving my point. You justify people being assaulted for wearing a hat as something normal and theybsgouldnexpect it. You dismiss a politician calling for harassment of political opponents as normal. You aren't interested in civility. You are only interested in putting down "the enemy" as youbsee them. I bet you see yourself as one of the enlightened ones above that stuff as well?
This has all been escalation for the past two decades. You dismiss violence against the right as part of the game. Antifa bitting people with bike locks is to be expected... just remember you dismissed it when it escalates again and democrats are being drug behind trucks.
and no. That's not me dismissing violence from the right. That's me saying the left needs to realize they are feeding into the escalation by ignoring it when their side does it.... as your comment amount people being assaulted over clothing demonstrates
Sorry. Nope. Obama didn't tear the country apart.
Right wing 'Birtherism' set the tone and drew the maggots from the underbelly of American society.
When one resorts to name calling to denigrate a person or ideal the only thing revealed is the typical conservative sour mash.
We could go back further if you want? How about the things Bush went through? Or clinton? Let's not pretend it was something new thatbstarted under obama. It's been slowly escalating for decades... and social media sped it up
Bush/cheney started war based on lies and fraud.
Clinton got head.
Trump? Where does one start and where does one end?
Comparison is a cheap shot and an excuse for an excuse.
Thank you for proving that nuance isn't y'all's strong point...
Please proceed.
I'm old enough to know for a fact that that is bullshit. Lynchings happened in my lifetime and y'all are whining about Antifa. I was at the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. I was in Skokie to demonstrate against the Nazi's in '77. I was in ACT UP. That same kind of political street fighting has gone on my whole fucking life.
Pretending it's anything new is disingenuous.
Guess you never heard of James Byrd or Matthew Shepard or Heather Heyer.
Ya, me making a comment on this site is the tipping point, SH.
Pffffttt.
Obama expanded those wars based on lies. Obama expanded the patriot act and surveillance of citizens. Obama drones more enemies and civilians than any other president. Obama droned a Us citizen. Obama was essentially Bush 2.0 with the exception of ACA. Just Because you want to view him as a messiah figure doesn't mean it was so. The comparison is deserved
No need for nuance. You are doing exactly as I said. Dismissing violence because it isn't happening to "your side". Complaining about antifa is just whining to you. You want to put it all on someone else and act like it's justified against the other side. We explain this to toddlers and adults still aren't getting the message. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Really, what is it with these 'rallies' anyway? Shouldn't he be working and not getting his ego stroked by his deplorable supporters.
Though one may not use it to express oneself, all have a need for recognizing it. Your reply is proof of that.
So you aren't interested in an actual discussion. My fault. I forget not everyone is sometimes.
You've already stated what you insist my motivation is and what I want. You've come to your own conclusions despite my input.
Please proceed.
Obama also told his lemmings to get in the faces of us who disagree with them
Are you equally offended by those who don’t correctly spell Trump when referring to or talking about him?
I didn't insist anything. You clearly disregarded violence against the right as no big deal because it happened to someone else before. Unless I misunderstood your comment and you actually did think violence like antifa assaulting people is a seriou issue?
Did i misunderstand "y'all are whining about antifa"?
Yes and intentionally so since you have to take it OUT OF CONTEXT in a failed attempt to 'make a point'.
My comment IN CONTEXT:
I wasn't trying to "take it out of context". Even with the whole point it still dismisses violence against people because "well they did this!"...
when you trivialize people being assaulted as "whining" it is reasonable to perceive that as dismissing the violence. Why not say "yea that violence was horrible and so was this"...
ive never implied it was one sided. I've said it was a series of escalations on both sides ... but when I address this people on the left seem to get offended at the thought their side was implicit as well. Instead they seem to try and justify it. With comments like "well it isn't comparable!.. the left and right aren't the same!"
when it comes to political violence and escalation they are. Why is saying there are people on both sides committing political violence so controversial?
If that wasn't your intent, why truncate the quote?
Nope, I put it IN PERSPECTIVE in comparison to the 6+ decades of DEADLY violence that has taken place in this country during MY lifetime. As I said, this kind of political street fighting is NOTHING NEW and pretending that suddenly it's out of control is disingenuous.
Historically, the VAST majority of the victims of that violence have been on the left. Now, a small group of anarchists on the far left give as good as they get and y'all SUDDENLY decide it's a bridge too far. Ironically, this comes from those who blame the Jews for not 'fighting back' against the Nazi's. When the children of the Holocaust survivors in Skokie dressed out in helmets in preparation for the Nazi's marching on the streets of their town, they were lambasted by the right for 'promoting violence'.
I have had to DEFEND myself from violent attacks from the political right. Yet, do I support people attacking MAGA hat wearers? NO, no more than I support straight guys trolling the LGBT community and beating up gay people or 'Greasers' beating the hell out of 'Hippies', or Cops beating up protestors, or, or, or. I support NONE of it. Nor do I shirk my responsibility as a citizen to take to the streets to seek redress from my government when necessary.
I shortened your quote because it was the important part being addressed and nothing prior to it changes my point IMO. It didn't change the ultimate point of your statement that people were unwarranted in their "whining" about the violence. However you are right.. I should have included it in its entirety. My apologies on that. Wasn't my intention to take it out of context and I'll be sure to include it completely and highlight the part I'm addressing. Point made
sorry.. but even in your affirmation that the violence is not condoned you seem to justify it by saying "they give as good as they get".... and referencing get things you have seen. I have seen stuff as well... that doesn't mean I think the right wing extremists are just "giving what they get"...
pointing to things in the past isn't moving forward. I can point to violence from the left shooting up a baseball game... that doesn't mean Charlottesville is just the right "giving as good as they get"....
we are taking about the current state of affairs .. at least relatively current. Especially since many doing the violence have only been around the past decade or two politically.
The attitude that turnabout is fair play only furthers the escalation.
And yes fights over political stuff as happened in the past. It really feels the divide is larger than ever and people are more entrenched . Even in the pas people fought and disagreed.... but the majority were having discussions. Now the people having discussions are the minority and the majority are entrenched on their political side.
There were disagreements in the past over immigration that were discussed. Now it has evolved into ad absurdum arguments of you are racist va you are trying to destroy the US with open borders
IMO that is because the vast majority is the RW extremists 'giving' were never getting anything, they were and have been the aggressors. It was that way for centuries. The vast majority of 'left wing' actions have been non violent.
We cannot move forward without learning from the past.
You can point to ONE GUY shooting up a baseball game. I can point to hundreds of people being lynched, beaten, raped, murdered and blown up.
Charlottesville was just the culmination of a resurgence of white supremacy. They have been 'giving' for over two centuries.
Again, false. Every side of the current political state of affairs has been part of our society for almost as long as we have been a country.
Therein lies the rub. But you have to admit that after having your ass kicked for decades it's hard to listen to the one that's been kicking your ass calling for peace after they get their nose bloodied...
Seriously Silent, I grew up in the 60's. Some hard core shit went down. The majority weren't having 'discussions', the majority was either at war in Nam or at war here. There were race riots and just plain ole riots. In 1968 almost every major city in this country was burning. We fucking assassinated two of our most beloved leaders.
This shit that is going down now is like a schoolyard fight in comparison.
Silent, this isn't a fucking disagreement. Trump took BABIES from their parents out of pure meanness and doesn't have a fucking clue how to reunify them. STOP!
There is NO discussion about it. NONE.
You really can't equate the violence of somebody getting punched in the face for wearing a MAGA hat to the violence of Trump wrenching children from their parents just because he wants to prove to the world that he's an asshole.
There is discussion about it. Obama did the same thing. The ACLU and other immigration groups blasted him for it even though the left was generally silent on it. He deported tons of people who had their kids left in the US under govt care. It wasn't done at the border but it was done.
I think we have reached a conclusion here. You really come across as justifying violence against people on the right as payback even though many of those people weren't around then and weren't even a part of it. Whether or not you mean to it is there. I just find that to be a escalation that historically has happened repeatedly to bad results . Enjoy your weekend
Yes, there is a discussion about how abhorrent it is.
Bullshit.
That's funny because the DHS Secretary admitted that Trump has done more than either Bush or Obama. I guess it's hard to remember which lie to promote.
Good for you.
You really come across as having a deep desire to diss me.
Oh but they sure as hell support those that represent that 'heritage'.
How is it bullshit? The obama administration deported plenty of people that caused family separations. Does it only matter when you are the border? Are you implying no one was ever deported under Obama that caused family separations?
The head of the DHS said Trump is doin more currently. He hasn't deported as many as obama yet.
Where have I tried to "diss you"? I said you come across as justifying violence. That's not a diss. That's just my perception given your comments. When someone says Look at that violence that's horrible and someone's response is "BUT Whatabout this stuff other people did?!" It's not a stretch to view it that way. Especially an online forum when it's hard to read people's tone.
It's a false equivalency. The 'zero tolerance' program was instituted by Trump, NOT Obama. The system was overwhelmed because of the numbers of refuges at the border for a short time during the Obama Administration. What is happening today is self inflicted and illustrates a breathtaking level of animus and incompetence.
Right, I'm sure that you hold those that justify violence in the highest regard. /s
You're intentionally conflating deportation with the 'zero tolerance' program that intentionally separates refugee families. Why?
You said:
One cannot make that statement without having reflected on the events of the PAST perpetrated by 'other people'. You've stated the SAME concept, MULTIPLE times.
In order refute that FALSE concept, I RIGHTLY cited our history of like violence based on my own personal experience.
At first, I thought you were uninformed base on your age or your lack of knowledge about our history. Now I realize that your comments are mere obfuscation without any intent of good faith debate.
Just calling something good a false equivalency doesn't make it so. Were families being separated under obama? Yes. That is fact. It was done through his entire presidency. It just wasn't being done at the border. It wasn't done just during a surge. People were caught illegally in the US and many times they were deported leaving the rest of the family in the US. So you're saying that it's different because one is done at the border and the other in the US? Immigrant groups were complaining of family separations under obama all the time. It just wasn't on the news.
Again.. not dissing you. Sorry if it is being taken that way. Not my intention. Unless you are justifying violence by saying they did it first.
Yes you can reflect on past acts of violence. That's not an issue and I never said it was. Acknowledging violence from one side doesn't mean you justify it from the other. All I said was when I brin up violence being committed and someone goes "well they did this!" That comes across as trying to justify violence as a tit for tat.
If someone says "That guy hit his wife!!" And my response is "yea she threw a coffee cup at him a few weeks ago" Can you not see how that could be perceived as justifying his violence because of her past violence? Again.. two wrongs don't make a right. You can be upset about all the violence without mentioning it as them vs us. I can say this violence is bad and still believe the other violence is bad too. It isn't a sum of all game.
I'm not sure why this bothers you so much to be able to acknowledge current violence without trying to bring in past violence as justification? Yes I think the past violence was Horrible. It doesn't justify violence against other people though. Especially if Ita just because they "look like the guys that did that violence!"
So it WAS different wasn't it SH? You are comparing TWO different programs/practices.
NO, I'm saying that it's different because it IS different in intent, scale and result. Is your attempt to ignore that willfully obtuse?
Yet I haven't done that. Just as you did, I expressed it through an historical perspective.
Yes, I know that is how you view it from your 'perspective', you've stated it ad nauseam.
Though is does seem that you accepted that concept when you stated this:
I don't know why YOU can't acknowledge that your whole posit is based on comparing past violence to that happening today and insisting that today is worse than ever.
Oh and BTFW, at NO time have I tried to JUSTIFY violence, so that dog don't hunt.
Now, you've beaten a dead horse for a couple of comments now. Why persist?
If you'd like to pursue a GOOD FAITH discussion, please proceed.
Sorry. Don't see how it's any different. The results are the same. The only difference being when they were caught. One family at the border or one in a small Tennessee town.... both situations the parents will be arrested and taken from their kids. So If trump waited until they got further into the US that makes it fine to arrest them then and separate the family?
Your very first reply to me said something about "trump and his sycophants don't have their hands clean"... which I never implied. Which is why I said you seem to be justifying violence. My whole post was not comparing past violence. You brought up the past violence. My post was violence in general.
I do see part of the confusion about this. I do believe we are currently more divided. You were pointing to past atrocities as it was worse then. I misunderstood the intent of that. However I do believe the divide is greater now. The lines were there in the past... and people were polarized... it just feels that divide has more people solidly on either side in the country as a whole. Every aspect of our country is divided by politics now. Every sport, business, entertainment industry, every single aspect has to have a political slant with a clear side being taken and arguments made ad absurdum. Someone can't even make a music video without people breaking it down politically and trying to find some hidden message on who they support. If someone is perceived to be "on the wrong side" a massive campaign is waged to attack them. BOTH SIDES. Yet when that is brought up people instantly get defensive and go "well yea but they did this sonwhat do they expect when it happens to them".
And yes this is being discussed in good faith. At no point have I meant to attack you or deceive you. I acknowledge you were not justifying violence. You said you weren't. I was just trying to get you to understand why I initially perceived it that way. Isn't understanding a goal of discussion?
There were 4 groups represented there. Only the extremists got all the news.
Thus, the sound bite of the event
I'll be civil when others start showing signs of civility. I'm done going high
I'm looking forward to lots of funny youtube videos when anti-choice thumpers try to remove a 40+ year old individual right.
I do. They don't. Good times.
I find it amusing many on the left are as afraid of their rights to kill babies being infringed on as the right are about gun rights.
Aren't I civil to you? It starts with 2 people being able to talk to each other and respect, if not agree, with each other. Too many people are busy with whataboutism and throwing out anything that looks like a possible counter-argument to actually stop and try to find a level of understanding. It's a stupid way to live.
You are, yes. Some of the rest here, not so much. I give as good as I get. If I perceive disrespect and dislike, I respond in kind. And I expect others to do the same to me. If I am the first to respond in an unkind or uncivil manner, I don't expect civility in reverse.
I tried to be civil when I first got here, but there are many here who do not respond with civility so why bother? It's easier to ignore or lash back
A Waters fan?
If you be nice to me, I'll be nice to you.
As for your cheerleader down below....I'm done being nice to him.
I find myself to be the nices
usually
but, then again,
I usually
find
myself lost
at the lost &
found
Nothing more than mental masturbation.
I'd be careful what one wishes for, me thinks this administration may just be looking for an excuse to declare martial law or a state of perceived emergency.
Nope not a conspiracy theorist, there is just something a bit hinky going on.
And MLK Jr is rolling around in his grave ......
I think the irrational discourse has always been there, but the universality of it ebbs and flows. It's hard to know if it's really worse right now or not because we live in an age where one lunatic on Twitter can drive the news cycle for a whole day. In past generations, that guy would have just expressed himself to his spittoon or his crystal collection and no one would have been the wiser.
Good point. The far out loons get much more attention now than ever before.
i'm not sure it's more troubling than what the country experienced the prior 8 years when Obama was president and the "right" opposed him etc, that's just the way things go - whichever side doesn't "win" will oppose the the "winning" side, correct ? It seems like people are treating this as something completely new and never seen before when that's just not the case.