Atlanta school removes Pledge of Allegiance from morning ritual

Via:  johnrussell  •  3 months ago  •  130 comments

Atlanta school removes Pledge of Allegiance from morning ritual

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


An Atlanta charter school will not recite the Pledge of Allegiance as part of its morning meeting agenda.

Atlanta Neighborhood Charter School on Grant Street announced the change Tuesday in a statement from elementary campus president Lara Zelski.

The decision was made “in an effort to begin our day as a fully inclusive and connected community,” Zelski said. “Over the past couple of years it has become increasingly obvious that more and more of our community were choosing to not stand and/or recite the pledge.”

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Atlanta Neighborhood Charter School will no longer recite the Pledge of Allegiance as part of its morning meeting agenda. (Credit: Channel 2 Action News)


Students will be given the opportunity to say the pledge at another point during the school day and they will continue to be asked to stand to participate in the school’s Wolf Pack Chant each morning, according to the statement.


“Teachers and the K-5 leadership team will be working with students to create a school pledge that we can say together at morning meeting,” Zelski said.

That pledge, she said, “will focus on students’ civic responsibility to their school family, community, country and our global society.”

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JohnRussell
1  seeder  JohnRussell    3 months ago

The pledge of the allegiance at school doesn't bother me at all.  I actually like the idea of kids being accustomed to group rituals. Everything in life should not be based on individual preference every second of the day. 

I guess then that it is ironic that the conservatives who supposedly most value "freedom"  will now be upset that this school is using their freedom to stop reciting the pledge. 

 
 
epistte
1.1  epistte  replied to  JohnRussell @1    3 months ago

Good for them. Being forced to pledge allegiance to a country or their flag is fascist. 

They should sign John Lennon's Imagine instead.

 
 
WallyW
1.2  WallyW  replied to  JohnRussell @1    3 months ago

There's a rumor that morning prayers are still mandatory. Even if they forgot their prayer rug.

 
 
epistte
1.2.1  epistte  replied to  WallyW @1.2    3 months ago
There's a rumor that morning prayers are still mandatory. Even if they forgot their prayer rug.

They cannot be mandatory in a public school.

Why do you think that Muslims have religious rights that Christians do not enjoy?

 
 
1stwarrior
2  1stwarrior    3 months ago

"Everything in life should not be based on individual preference every second of the day."

Deleted

 
 
JohnRussell
2.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  1stwarrior @2    3 months ago

Relate your comments to the topic please. 

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
3  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη    3 months ago

Requiring Pledges of Allegiance is ridiculous in a free society. Good decision.

 
 
Sparty On
3.1  Sparty On  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @3    3 months ago

Except for the people who would like their kids to do it.   Bad decision IMO.   No reason the teachers and kids who want to do it couldn't assemble somewhere to recite it.

Those who don't want to could carry on elsewhere.

Easy peezy .....

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
3.1.1  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη  replied to  Sparty On @3.1    3 months ago

I don't want anyone forcing my kid to chant a pledge. What exactly is the point? To make them patriotic? Why do we have to prove our patriotism in a chant before school starts?

 
 
MrFrost
3.1.2  MrFrost  replied to  Sparty On @3.1    3 months ago

Then thwy can do it at home... "Easy peasy".

 
 
MrFrost
3.1.3  MrFrost  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @3.1.1    3 months ago

True, you cannot force patriotism. 

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.4  Sparty On  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @3.1.1    3 months ago

So you force those that want to, not to.  

Does that really sound right to you?

Really?

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.5  Sparty On  replied to  MrFrost @3.1.2    3 months ago

Then they can do it in the school their family is paying for just like everyone else who is paying taxes.

Presto chango ...... real freedom of choice-o for everyone.

Not just for people of your choice.

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  MrFrost @3.1.3    3 months ago

Lol is that what you call it?

Schools aren't forcing anything by allowing it unless of course the kids parents really have their heads up their asses.   That sort of thing is developed at home not at school.

Kids getting morals from schools and not from home?   I know that's what many on the left want but all that is, is a disaster waiting to happen.

 
 
321steve
3.1.7  321steve  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.4    3 months ago
So you force those that want to, not to....
From the article: "Students will be given the opportunity to say the pledge at another point during the school day."
No Problem, Those who want to still can pledge away. 
 
 
WallyW
3.1.8  WallyW  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.4    3 months ago

Yes, in some cases that I have hear of,they could be punished by going against the wishes of the school administration.

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.9  Sparty On  replied to  WallyW @3.1.8    3 months ago

It’s okay to tell people they can’t but not okay to tell people they have to.    Thus defines the hypocrisy of such minded people.

 
 
MrFrost
3.1.10  MrFrost  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.5    3 months ago
Then they can do it in the school their family is paying for just like everyone else who is paying taxes.

Nope. Separation of church and state. SECULAR society. You cannot force people to say the pledge of allegiance. Hell, it was that way when I was in HS back in the 80's. This entire arugment has been settled a LONG time ago. This school just did what is legally correct. 

If the Pledge of alliegence is THAT important to some student, then by all means, they can do it at home. 

 
 
MrFrost
3.1.11  MrFrost  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.5    3 months ago
real freedom of choice-o for everyone.

So if a school plays the Muslim call to prayer every day, in all the schools in America...you'll be fine with it? Got ya. 

 
 
MrFrost
3.1.12  MrFrost  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.4    3 months ago
So you force those that want to, not to.  

Again, they can do it at home if it's that important. MORE importantly, you want to force those that DON'T want to, to do it? 

The right says they want a less intrusive government, but you want to force kids to pledge their allegiance? LOL 

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.13  Sparty On  replied to  MrFrost @3.1.10    2 months ago

Hilarious!     No one is being “forced” to pledge.

If the pledge of allegiance is such an affront to some, then they don’t have to participate.    Like I said no one is forcing them.     They can go off in the corner and play with their Karl Marx and Flying Spaghetti Monster dolls during the pledge

Petty simple eh?

 
 
Eagle Averro
3.1.14  Eagle Averro  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.13    2 months ago
If the pledge of allegiance is such an affront to some, then they don’t have to participate

E.A   If I may::

 How many Clubs? Institutions have a " Membership Code " that one SIGNS up to uphold, or else " so this inordinate fear of ONE of those codes, and in this case by the Govern Ment, means what about their trust to those that they elect? ( Note My By Intent separation of the word )

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.15  Sparty On  replied to  Eagle Averro @3.1.14    2 months ago

Say what?

 
 
Eagle Averro
3.1.16  Eagle Averro  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.15    2 months ago
Say what?

E.A  " Pledge of Allegiance " if from WHO to Whom, and why is it feared?

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.17  Sparty On  replied to  Eagle Averro @3.1.16    2 months ago

Riddle me this

and riddle me that

speak in complete sentences please

And i’ll give you a back pat.

 
 
Eagle Averro
3.1.18  Eagle Averro  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.17    2 months ago
and riddle me that

speak in complete sentences please

And i’ll give you a back pat.

E.A  LOL   No Thanks ,, we have " Fire walls " and " fire protection systems " for a reason, Language also has a " Protection " when one can not understand, that is a warning in itself peace

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.19  Sparty On  replied to  Eagle Averro @3.1.18    2 months ago

Haven’t heard logic like that since we did some work in a nut house.

ironically we were installing a fire protection system

 
 
Thrawn 31
3.1.20  Thrawn 31  replied to  Sparty On @3.1    2 months ago

As a vet, this is all I have to say about the "pledge", fuck it. Along with the anthem. Stop trying to compel anyone to show some sort of loyalty or fealty for no reason (that was kinda the entire basis of the revolt in the first place). Let people do their thing (within reason), you know, that whole freedom thing. 

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.21  Sparty On  replied to  Thrawn 31 @3.1.20    2 months ago

And this Vet tells anyone who tries to stop me and mine from saying it .... pack a lunch if you try to stop us ..... we’ll pledge If we want to.

I don’t give a shit who you are.    You’re not stopping us.     

 
 
Misty Mountain
3.1.22  Misty Mountain  replied to  Thrawn 31 @3.1.20    2 months ago

And as an American, I feel it should be said in our schools.

Dont like it? Too bad!

 
 
Misty Mountain
3.1.23  Misty Mountain  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.21    2 months ago

Yep, I feel the same way..

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.24  Sparty On  replied to  Misty Mountain @3.1.23    2 months ago

Yeah I hear ya.     Honestly, I don’t care if other people do or don’t.    They only have problem with me when they try to tell me and mine we can’t.

That dog don’t hunt .... likely never will ....

 
 
Tessylo
3.1.25  Tessylo  replied to  Misty Mountain @3.1.22    2 months ago

That's faux patriotism and foolish.  No one should be forced to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth.

 
 
Gordy327
3.1.26  Gordy327  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.25    2 months ago

Indeed. No one should be forced to recite the Pledge. The potential problem with reciting the Pledge or not might be it singles out those who act contrary to what the rest do. That can lead to bullying or ostracism by other students.

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.27  Sparty On  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.25    2 months ago

And by extension, no one should be forced not to.

easy peezy, lemon squeezy .......

 
 
Gordy327
3.1.28  Gordy327  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.27    2 months ago

They're not being forced not to. The article even states they have the opportunity to recite the Pledge. 

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.29  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.28    2 months ago

It also sez the school reversed their decision.

Good for them, they are giving every student the choice.

As it should be.

 
 
Misty Mountain
3.1.30  Misty Mountain  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.28    2 months ago

As long as they do not take it away. Then it would not be fair for the students that would like to do the pledge. 

 
 
Thrawn 31
3.1.31  Thrawn 31  replied to  Misty Mountain @3.1.22    2 months ago
And as an American, I feel it should be said in our schools.

Why? As an American I take issue with compulsory displays of loyalty. 

 
 
Misty Mountain
3.1.32  Misty Mountain  replied to  Thrawn 31 @3.1.31    2 months ago

It's not really, it's just a jester to remember how much we care about our country. You don't know how lucky you really are. I do.  Look at the people trying to come over here, they would do anything. 

 
 
Gordy327
3.1.33  Gordy327  replied to  Misty Mountain @3.1.30    2 months ago
As long as they do not take it away. Then it would not be fair for the students that would like to do the pledge. 

It's not being taken away. The article explicitly mentions that. Neither is anyone who want to say the Pledge being censored from doing so.

 
 
SteevieGee
3.1.34  SteevieGee  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.4    2 months ago
So you force those that want to, not to.   Does that really sound right to you?

You mean... like gays getting married?

 
 
Sparty On
3.1.35  Sparty On  replied to  SteevieGee @3.1.34    2 months ago

Hardly the same thing.   One is trying to change a long existing norm, the other is trying for a previously non existent one.

That said, you missed the mark with me as i could care less who marries who.   None of my business.   Just like its none of yours if i choose to embrace the Pledge of Allegiance.  

 
 
It Is ME
4  It Is ME    3 months ago

"The decision was made “in an effort to begin our day as a fully inclusive and connected community,” 

Gosh....didn't know that 100% of the community agrees with SHIT like that.

Gotta luv Liberal thinking. laughing dude

The "Few" seem to ALWAYS be the majority in their warped minds.

“Teachers and the K-5 leadership team will be working with students to create a school pledge that we can say together at morning meeting,”

I Pledge Allegiance to the WORLD of ……………… ?

 
 
321steve
5  321steve    3 months ago

When I was a kid I didn't much know or care what the pledge even was. We said the words.   

We were "required" to but no one paid any attention to the meaning, we were kids we only said the words to stay out of trouble. What good is that ? What did that teach us except to put on a show ? Are we trying to create robots ? 

I have NO problem with children not saying the pledge until they are old enough to decide for themselves what and who they want to "pledge their allegiance to". Before that it's mindless propaganda anyway.

Pledging to something one does not understand is not pledging, its conforming.

 
 
arkpdx
5.1  arkpdx  replied to  321steve @5    3 months ago

maybe this will give it more meaning to you .

True words are being spoken. 

https://youtu.be/UjZ_dEzDPKM

 
 
321steve
5.1.1  321steve  replied to  arkpdx @5.1    3 months ago
maybe this will give it more meaning to you

perhaps as a child Mr Laswell's explanation may have instilled more understanding of why the adults required we recite the pledge, as an adult I know what words mean even when put together.  lol

Back then we didn't give a rats ass what it meant and most of us didn't pay it much attention. I'm a child of the 60s we were spoiled and we didn't care.

IMO: Forcing children who do not understand or agree with reciting the pledge is useless anyway. One can surely recite the words and not care about the meaning. 

But children will conform so easily.

Most of them anyway.

 
 
96WS6
5.2  96WS6  replied to  321steve @5    2 months ago
When I was a kid I didn't much know or care what the pledge even was. We said the words.  We were "required" to but no one paid any attention to the meaning, we were kids we only said the words to stay out of trouble.  

When I was a kid they actually taught us the meaning and why we said it everyday.  Maybe that's part of the problem.  Maybe Frank is on to something.

zappa.png

 
 
321steve
5.2.1  321steve  replied to  96WS6 @5.2    2 months ago
When I was a kid they actually taught us the meaning. 

Great, every American student should be taught the meaning and importance of the American constitution, the pledge and the bill of rights.

Eventually they taught us as well. But, we started "reciting" the Pledge of allegiance in my school starting in kidenregargen. 

The pledge was broadcast over the school intercom system that was heard throughout the school. As kindergarteners and for some time we were too young to understand what it meant but really had no choice but to participate anyway.

If this was other countries doing this we might call this practice  indoctrination. 

When a student is old enough to know and understand what he or she is taking a pledge to, offering it to them as a choice is patriotic and American. But, what kind of pledge is it when the person does not even understand what they are pledging. Or to Whom , Or to What ?

It really isn't pledging, its conforming at that point. A pledge is worthless without understanding it.

OR worse yet, meaning it.

 
 
Mark in Wyoming
6  Mark in Wyoming    3 months ago

Teachers and the K-5 leadership team will be working with students to create a school pledge that we can say together at morning meeting,”

And if the kids refuse to recite this new agreed on pledge?

I would love to see some kid recite the pledge as written , but doing so while taking a knee, it does after all have the words added in the 1950s of under god, doesn't mention which or what god , that is for the individual to decide.

It all reminds me of what Red Skelton said back in the late 60s and what it meant to him as he learned from his headmaster. 

 The way the headmaster explained it so that even a child could understand each word and its meaning , still holds true , and I doubt , the teachers or the leadership team can improve on what already exists if presented the same way Mr Skelton presented it on his show oh so many years ago.

 
 
arkpdx
6.1  arkpdx  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @6    3 months ago

see 5.1

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
7  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη    3 months ago

It's an authoritarian fetish to insist on indoctrinating young children into your idea of god loving patriots.

The reality is we are a divided nation with half under god and half not. The pledge isn't going  to fix it.

 
 
MUVA
7.1  MUVA  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @7    3 months ago

I hated it when I was in school never understood the purpose except to make you stand up when you just sat down.

 
 
lib50
7.1.1  lib50  replied to  MUVA @7.1    2 months ago
I hated it when I was in school never understood the purpose except to make you stand up when you just sat down.

I didn't hate it, but it seemed asinine to me, like pledging fealty to your king or something.  I would just stand up and sit down.   I don't like that symbolic stuff, it distracts.  And people just say it mindlessly.

 
 
Farnsworth Horatio Clapstonestacker III
7.1.2  Farnsworth Horatio Clapstonestacker III  replied to  MUVA @7.1    2 months ago
never understood the purpose

So the teachers could check out boners.

 
 
ArkansasHermit-too
7.2  ArkansasHermit-too  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @7    2 months ago
It's an authoritarian fetish to insist on indoctrinating young children into your idea of god loving patriots.

.

And always has been.

.

index 1.jpg

index.jpg

 
 
Thrawn 31
7.2.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  ArkansasHermit-too @7.2    2 months ago

Those pictures have always made me laugh. 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8  Buzz of the Orient    2 months ago
"Requiring Pledges of Allegiance is ridiculous in a free society. Good decision."

Absolutely.  Wait until the next generation takes over - they might do away with the flag as well - who needs a flag, eh? Wave the Constitution instead. The generation after that just might do away with the Constitution. Hooray!! No need for loyal patriotic citizens. 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8    2 months ago

"Oh say can you see..." is on its way to oblivion within the next generation or two.

This comedy routine that I watched on the Steve Allen show decades ago will no longer be funny.

"So tell us, Jose Jimenez, how do you feel about the USA after the first thing you just did here, gone to see the Superbowl?"

"Oh, I learned that Americans are caring, thoughtful wonderful people."

"Why do you think that?"

"Well, when I sat down to watch the game, everyone in the stadium stood up and sang "Jose can you see"?"

 
 
Thrawn 31
8.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8    2 months ago

Thank god for drunk dick heads facing the wrong way during the anthem at a football game! Saving Murica right thar! 

 
 
Thrawn 31
8.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8    2 months ago

Thank god for drunk dick heads facing the wrong way during the anthem at a football game! Saving Murica right thar! 

 
 
Tessylo
8.4  Tessylo  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8    2 months ago

What do you care about the flag anyway?  Aren't you a Canadian living in China?

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tessylo @8.4    2 months ago

I have the right to predict, or is "free speech" just a right that only Americans are entitled to (except for examples like a right wing or Israeli speaker being shouted down)? 

Canadians don't disrespect their anthem and flag, and the Chinese not only respect but admire theirs.

 
 
Sparty On
8.4.2  Sparty On  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.1    2 months ago
Canadians don't disrespect their anthem and flag

Most Americans do as well.

Every bushel of fruit has a few rotten ones.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Sparty On @8.4.2    2 months ago

The problem is that if the rotten one isn't removed, it spreads to the others. 

 
 
321steve
8.4.4  321steve  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.3    2 months ago

.

 
 
epistte
8.4.5  epistte  replied to  Sparty On @8.4.2    2 months ago
Most Americans do as well. Every bushel of fruit has a few rotten ones.

Why should anyone automatically respect the flag or the anthem? Isn't respect meant to be earned? 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @8.4.5    2 months ago

IMO a flag is a symbol, a symbol representing a country.  Well, if you don't respect your country, get the fuck out. Governments come and go - some may be good and some may be bad, but your country is a rock notwithstanding, and if you don't love it - LEAVE!!!  Isn't that a common expression - "Love it or leave it"?

 
 
Tessylo
8.4.7  Tessylo  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.6    2 months ago

A symbol only, and a piece of cloth.  I'm staying right here thank you very much.  

 
 
lennylynx
8.4.8  lennylynx  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.6    2 months ago
...get the fuck out...

Where should she go Buzz, Canada? Happy

 
 
Sparty On
8.4.9  Sparty On  replied to  epistte @8.4.5    2 months ago
Why should anyone automatically respect the flag or the anthem?

The question is more "why not" than "why" and it's specific to each country really.  

Here in the US there are many more reasons to show respect than not to IMO.   i could go into all of that here but i'm sure much of it would be lost on you and/or you would just disagree.

I will simply say the fact that no one is forcing you to any of that and you are free to make the choice one way or another without getting thrown into a real gulag or reeducation camp is reason enough.   Freedom is taken for granted in this country way too much these days.   It ain't perfect but its pretty damn good.   That is if you aren't a complete narcissistic dipstick  who expects EVERYTHING to go your way.

So ironically, your question really answers your question.

 
 
Sparty On
8.4.10  Sparty On  replied to  lennylynx @8.4.8    2 months ago

I hear Venezuela is nice this time of year.  

As long as you don't mind one million percent hyperinflation ..... ain't socialism grand?

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Sparty On @8.4.9    2 months ago

There is no such thing as absolute "freedom". There are degrees of it - and one would have to be naive to think that they are truly free.  There are laws, regulations, mores and moral standards that limit freedom, and anyone who thinks they can do virtually ANYTHING they want, could end up in jail, or a mental institution, or just plain shunned by others.

 
 
epistte
8.4.12  epistte  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.6    2 months ago
IMO a flag is a symbol, a symbol representing a country.  Well, if you don't respect your country, get the fuck out. Governments come and go - some may be good and some may be bad, but your country is a rock notwithstanding, and if you don't love it - LEAVE!!!  Isn't that a common expression - "Love it or leave it"?

If governments come and go then the flag also comes and goes because if the government changes then so does the country. I'll fight to defend the rights of others and the protections that we have in the Constitution, but I will not reflexively bow down to any flag, to any government or any god. I'd be more likely to light it than to pledge allegiance to it. 

Isn't that a common expression - "Love it or leave it"?

Maybe Ontario is where I should be.

 
 
epistte
8.4.13  epistte  replied to  Sparty On @8.4.10    2 months ago
I hear Venezuela is nice this time of year.   As long as you don't mind one million percent hyperinflation ..... ain't socialism grand?

You're a one note wonder with Venezuela. When was the last time that you heard Bernie Sanders or any progressive extoll the virtues of that government?  When exactly did Venezuala become a nordic country? 

 
 
Sparty On
8.4.14  Sparty On  replied to  epistte @8.4.13    2 months ago

Awww can't take the joke that is Venezuela eh?   A grand Socialist experiment that failed.    I guess if i were a socialist i'd want to forget it as well.

And since when is a Nordic country with, very little social diversity, basically no leadership role in the worlds security and a total population of less than most of our individual states, a good comparison with a large leadership country like the US?

It's not.   Not matter how hard you try to make it so.

 
 
epistte
8.4.15  epistte  replied to  Sparty On @8.4.14    2 months ago
Awww can't take the joke that is Venezuela eh?   A grand Socialist experiment that failed.    I guess if i were a socialist i'd want to forget it as well.

First you try to backtrack by saying that your reply was a joke and then you argue that Venezuela is representative of democratic market socialism, which obviously it is not.

The problem is that you don't understand any part of socialism and are afraid if what you don't understand so you are easily around by the nose by people with more knowledge. Instead of making claims that you cannot defend you might want to expend some time learning the many possibilities of what socialism is from an unbiased source such as a political science or macroeconomics textbook.  You don't have to like the idea but you should be able to discuss it with some reasonable sort of proficiency.

Learning is almost always the answer to a problem. 

 
 
Sparty On
8.4.16  Sparty On  replied to  epistte @8.4.15    2 months ago

I didn't say i intended it to be a joke.   I said Venezuela is a joke.

For this conversation to go any further your reading comprehension is going to have to improve.   That would help a great deal before you cast anymore stones in your glass house.

 
 
epistte
8.4.17  epistte  replied to  Sparty On @8.4.16    2 months ago
I didn't say i intended it to be a joke.   I said Venezuela is a joke.

You are the one that brought Venezuela up as a supposed standard of democratic socialism, which it is not. You have been told many times that it wasn't, nor have you see progressives defend that government. 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.18  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @8.4.12    2 months ago

Do you despise the ground you stand on?  IMO that is what the flag represents - as I said, governments come and go, but the flag is permanent, and the land the flag represents is permanent, and who the hell bows down to a flag? What I said is "respect", not kow-tow.

Ontario is where I was born and lived most of my life, but you wouldn't be happy there now that a Conservative government has taken over the province.

 
 
epistte
8.4.19  epistte  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.18    2 months ago

Doug Ford is a loser like his brother Rob. I don't understand why people continue to vote for these pricks. 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.20  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @8.4.19    2 months ago

I certainly had no admiration for Rob.  Toronto has had some great mayors, but IMO Rob wasn't in that category.  I'm willing to see what and how Doug does before I'll provide judgement. Prejudice is not exactly admirable as well.

I don't think it's fair to characterize a person because of their sibling, although I'd be complimented if someone did that to me since my brother is Mensa and I'm not quite as brilliant.

 
 
epistte
8.4.21  epistte  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.20    2 months ago

Do you plan to ignore this partisan stunt?

He hid it from the people'

Official Opposition and NDP Leader Andrea Horwath declared the bill "undemocratic" and said Ford was "drunk on power." She pointed out that Ford did not specifically campaign on this issue during the spring provincial election.

"He didn't say a word [during the election] and now he's pretending he was talking about it all the time," said Horwath. "He hid it from the people the entire campaign."

Toronto Mayor John Tory and a majority of Toronto councillors also oppose the change and are set to hold an emergency meeting in the coming days to decide whether to challenge it in court.

Ford, himself a former council member, revealed his plan just weeks ago, after many candidates had already signed up to run in the Oct. 22 election. 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.22  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @8.4.21    2 months ago

I don't know what 'change' you're referring to - I don't follow Ontario provincial politics as much as I used to, because I have no intention of returning to Canada for a number of reasons, and Trudeau is one of them.

 
 
epistte
8.4.23  epistte  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.22    2 months ago

Doug Ford wants to drastically reduce the number of city council representatives for the city of Toronto.

TORONTO — Doug Ford's surprise decision to dramatically cut the size of Toronto's city council just months before the fall municipal election drew immediate backlash Friday from the city's mayor and other critics, who accused Ontario's new premier of circumventing the democratic process.

Ford said his Progressive Conservative government will introduce legislation to cut the number of council seats from 47 to 25, aligning city wards with federal ridings — a plan that wasn't outlined during the spring election campaign or mentioned in the province's throne speech earlier this month.

The premier, a failed Toronto mayoral candidate and single-term city councillor, said he has wanted to make the change since his days at city hall

I like Trudeau.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.24  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @8.4.23    2 months ago

Were reasons for his planned reduction indicated?  Could it have to do with budget expense?  You seem to have your finger on the pulse, so perhaps you are aware.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.25  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.24    2 months ago

Wait a sec. Maybe I can guess why. Urban Toronto is much more "Liberal" than the Ontario rural countryside where the people are more Conservative.  He could be trying to whittle down the power of the "Liberal" votes.  However, it's going to be harder to argue against it if he aligns with the Federal wards. But then, what has that got to do with it?  I'm puzzled.

 
 
epistte
8.4.26  epistte  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.24    2 months ago

He claims that there are too many people to get meaningful legislation accomplished. Maybe the problem is that conservative policies are not popular enough to get sufficent support to pass. 

It sounds quite partisan to me, but I'm not a Canuk.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
8.4.27  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @8.4.26    2 months ago

I can understand that reason.  "Too many cooks spoil the broth." 

 
 
Rhyferys
8.4.28  Rhyferys  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.4.6    2 months ago

There is another old expression, fix it or f*ck it. That's the problem with old sayings, you can always find another one.

 
 
Sparty On
8.4.29  Sparty On  replied to  epistte @8.4.17    2 months ago
You are the one that brought Venezuela up as a supposed standard of democratic socialism

Nope.   You're the one who brought up "democratic socialism" not me.   So please stop being disingenuous.

I know progressives like to redefine words to suit their needs.   Like socialism ..... adding words like democratic in front of it.   Like that somehow changes the meaning of the root word in some meaningful way.   Which it doesn't in this case.

The fact of the matter is most of those Nordic countries are actually NOT good examples of socialism by definition since they since they exert little control or ownership over business/production, don't all have a minimum wage (wage control) and for the most part offer full school choice.  Besides, most of them were fiscally successful before they added the high taxes to pay for more the extensive social programs progressives like to call "democratic socialism."

So you can add "democratic" in front of "socialism" for those countries but it's not really socialism per se.    Sure they have extensive social programs driven by higher taxes but i didn't need three semesters of economics and government in college to know that is not even close to the definition of "socialism."   Not even if you put the word "democratic" in front of it.

 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
9  Perrie Halpern R.A.    2 months ago

As a teacher, I like saying the pledge. No one forces anyone to say it, but for those who want to say it, it is a nice way to start of the day. 

 
 
dave-2693993
10  dave-2693993    2 months ago
“Teachers and the K-5 leadership team will be working with students to create a school pledge that we can say together at morning meeting,” Zelski said.

I am concerned this is planting an unintended seed.

When will we see employees give a pledge of allegiance to their companies at the start of shift?

 
 
Skrekk
10.1  Skrekk  replied to  dave-2693993 @10    2 months ago
When will we see employees give a pledge of allegiance to their companies at the start of shift?

I think Japanese companies used to do that.

 
 
dave-2693993
10.1.1  dave-2693993  replied to  Skrekk @10.1    2 months ago

I was kind of thinking that, but wasn't sure if it was my imagination.

 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
10.1.2  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  dave-2693993 @10.1.1    2 months ago

We all grew up saying the Pledge... yet I don't remember any job I held ( other than being a teacher), where I had to say the Pledge.. do you?

 
 
dave-2693993
10.1.3  dave-2693993  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @10.1.2    2 months ago

I am going to say they are not really the same thing.

The country is larger with subsets of things within it and the pledge speaks at a fairly high level. When in school, I never saw an incident of where a wrongdoing occurred and a teacher, administrator or patrol reprimanded the wrongdoer by saying anything like "you are acting treasonous". The high level concepts were left where they belong.

A school is a small organization which for the most part is attended daily and is a closely controlled environment. If I understood the quote correctly, the administration of that school was intending a pledge to that daily attended organization with buy in from the students.

Maybe it is just me, but the potential is there for some altruistic yet tight fisted guidelines which are repeated and then reinforced everyday.

After all, in this scenario, all the students voluntarily confirm an indoctrination every day with famous buy in.

The mind quickly asks, without seeing it in practice, how is that pledge to which they all gave buy in, going to be applied to the daily lives of the children attending that school?

Will such practices carry forward in life? At times the oddest things do.

The potential is just too Orwellian in my estimation. 

With that foundation, which things do and do not carry forward? Personally, I am not willing to make a gamble like that.

If I correctly understood the post Buzz put up, I think he gave us a real life example of a similar situation.

I would prefer to keep a good distance from such a line.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
10.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  dave-2693993 @10    2 months ago

I China, both the Public and Private schools have a flag-raising ceremony at the beginning of every Monday, when they pledge their allegiance to the motherland.  EVERYBODY takes part - nobody kneels, nobody doesn't show up.  Companies, restaurants, etc. where there are a number of employees have a staff session at the beginning of each work day - but I don't know what is said at them, although I'm sure its a pep talk at least.  Here is a photo taken from one of my apartment windows of the staff at a restaurant in the mall attached to my building.

mundane 2 x.jpg

 
 
dave-2693993
10.2.1  dave-2693993  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.2    2 months ago

Interesting.

When I had my business I conducted a daily morning meeting too. At the end of each business day we would stop at a certain point in production. Later in the evening and overnight I would assess where all the projects were relative to their prioritization and set up a schedule for the next morning meeting. Then sort out questions/concerns.

But no pledges to the company and no rah, rah, sis boom bah other than maybe giving recognition to someone for a ob well done.

Pledging to a company just seems over the top controlling. 

 
 
Thrawn 31
10.2.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.2    2 months ago

So the US Govt should demand and enforce mandatory obedience like "Communist" China?  Kinda thought that difference was what made the US a tad bit more appealing, but hey, I have been wrong before. 

 
 
Sparty On
10.2.3  Sparty On  replied to  Thrawn 31 @10.2.2    2 months ago
So the US Govt should demand and enforce mandatory obedience like "Communist" China? 

Not what Buzz said and I’m relatively sure that isn’t what he was trying to intimate.

But hey, that’s just my opinion.    I could be wrong .....

 
 
Rhyferys
10.2.4  Rhyferys  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.2    2 months ago

That is how authoritarians like things, all in a group and indoctrinated, exactly what conservatives have been accusing liberals of doing. I believe the psychological term is projection.

 
 
mocowgirl
10.3  mocowgirl  replied to  dave-2693993 @10    2 months ago
When will we see employees give a pledge of allegiance to their companies at the start of shift?

I don't know.  I do know that I was never a fan of having to do the Wally World cheer.

http://www.talkativeman.com/the-walmart-cheer/ All across America, Walmart convenes nearly 60,000 regularly scheduled meetings each week, all of them starting and ending with the Walmart cheer. Also, each store has a 15-minute shift-change meeting three times a day, when a new wave of cashiers, stockers, and supervisors arrives. Their meetings start with a Walmart Cheer.
 
 
dave-2693993
10.3.1  dave-2693993  replied to  mocowgirl @10.3    2 months ago

I don't blame you about the cheer. I can understand meetings to keep things cohesive and sorting issue. The brainwashing stuff? Hmmm? No.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
10.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  dave-2693993 @10    2 months ago
"I am concerned this is planting an unintended seed."

No matter WHAT it will be, people will still find fault with it.

 
 
dave-2693993
10.4.1  dave-2693993  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.4    2 months ago

At this point it loos like a non-issue as the school has reversed course somewhat.

In my mind this is a good idea just as an artificial allegiance under a group mentality is a bad idea.

 
 
devangelical
10.5  devangelical  replied to  dave-2693993 @10    2 months ago

Walmart used to do a pep rally thing at the beginning of each shift. I don't know if they still do it.

 
 
sixpick
11  sixpick    2 months ago

School reverses Pledge of Allegiance policy after criticism

Starting next week, we will return to our original format and provide our students with the opportunity to recite the Pledge during the all-school morning meeting."

No one will be required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local-education/atlanta-charter-school-takes-pledge-allegiance-out-morning-ritual/fVGcXbFz4cNy2PQA8vKPJI/

We never questioned reciting the Pledge of Allegiance when I was a child in school.  I was also a Boy Scout and we had the Scout Oath and Scout Law.  That was a long time ago, but to this day I can recite them like it was only yesterday  You get just about what you put in a person.  Today, Patriotism is not in style, Cultural Marxism is though and anyone who expresses love for their their country is considered backward, not too smart and more than likely a bigot and a deplorable human being by those who are obsessed with looking under every crack to find something this country has done at one time another to give them a reason to criticize it.

What are the Scout Oath and Scout Law?

Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law

The Scout Law has 12 points. Each is a goal for every Scout. A Scout tries to live up to the Law every day. It is not always easy to do, but a Scout always tries.

A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.

LOYAL. Show that you care about your family, friends, Scout leaders, school, and country.

HELPFUL. Volunteer to help others without expecting a reward.

FRIENDLY. Be a friend to everyone, even people who are very different from you.

COURTEOUS. Be polite to everyone and always use good manners.

KIND. Treat others as you want to be treated . Never harm or kill any living thing without good reason.

OBEDIENT. Follow the rules of your family, school, and pack. Obey the laws of your community and country.

CHEERFUL. Look for the bright side of life. Cheerfully do tasks that come your way. Try to help others be happy.

THRIFTY. Work to pay your own way. Try not to be wasteful. Use time, food, supplies, and natural resources wisely.

BRAVE. Face difficult situations even when you feel afraid. Do what you think is right despite what others might be doing or saying.

CLEAN. Keep your body and mind fit . Help keep your home and community clean.

REVERENT. Be reverent toward God. Be faithful in your religious duties. Respect the beliefs of others.

Kind of goes along with trying to be a good person and a good citizen.  But back then we didn't have three dozen genders, two dozen languages and students who had no desire to become Americans, but instead now want to maintain their own nationality from wherever the hell they came from or ran away from to escape to the United States of America in order reap the benefits all the other generations before them had worked hard to make available for future generations.

If these people who say they love this country, but can't see anything good about it, while constantly seeing everything bad about it and are obsessed to the point of affecting the overall attitude of the people in this country, especially the children, the future generations will have little respect for the flag or anything else in this country.  

 
 
Thrawn 31
11.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  sixpick @11    2 months ago

I was a Boy Scout, all the way to Eagle, and I have to say that I don't think KIDS should be pressured into any sort of pledge. 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
11.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  sixpick @11    2 months ago

There are those who disparage China because it's "Communist", and therefore is not "FREE" like the USA, yet they wonder how China is rising so fast to the top, and why its middle class is growing so quickly. After all, "Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose", right?

 
 
321steve
11.2.1  321steve  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @11.2    2 months ago
"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose", right?

Perhaps for those who never have had the freedom to be and do whatever they want freedom is just another word, But for us folks who love the freedom to do and be whatever we want it's a core belief that we dont take for granted nor intend to lose. 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
11.2.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  321steve @11.2.1    2 months ago

Yes, freedom to despise your neighbours because of their politics or belief, to turn your country into a maelstrom of chaos, more concerned with who's in the White House than with what your children are doing, where shootings and murder are becoming the norm - okay, I'm happy you're happy with that.

 
 
321steve
11.2.3  321steve  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @11.2.2    2 months ago
Yes, freedom

Yes freedom to do all you listed and much much more. It's called taking the good with the bad. 

True America is not nirvana but the freedom to be what you desire as a human IMO trumps being safe and told what is acceptable to be.

Thankfully America is not a nation of robots who obey commands at the will of our leaders, we do what we want here and you're correct, I couldn't be happier being here.

In fact there are a couple of things I have always been very glad of, The first, I was born at this time in history, the second that I was born in this country.  

America governing by the people for the people may not be nirvana  but IMO it's better than being controlled by any dictator who ever walked the planet.

To each their own.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
11.2.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  321steve @11.2.3    2 months ago

Having lived here for exactly 12 years, and been surrounded by and in the company over the years with probably at least 1000 citizens here, I have NEVER met a person who is unhappy with their government, or their lot in life, and it seems to me they are pretty free to do whatever makes them happy. I have never met a person who has a beef with the government, although I know that among 1.4 billion people some do exist and I have seen some reasons for it, but how different is that from anywhere else?  I'm a Canadian and I'm unhappy with Trudeau and his liberal government for what I think are pretty good reasons, but I'll NEVER give up my Canadian passport and citizenship because I'm loyal to my country. The people here I've met are happy, and are achieving the benefits and pleasures that go with their position in life.  They are getting rich. They are driving new cars (my brother-in-law drives a new Mercedes and is buying a big home) and living in nice homes.  There could be more millionaires here than in America, and there are quite a few billionaires.  The government is working hard towards improving the life of the poor.  An example I recall from years ago was when the government subsidized by 50% the cost of appliances such as air conditioners, TVs, refrigerators and washing machines for the poor.  It's not as bad being here as you think, Steve, or I would return to Canada if it were.

 
 
321steve
11.2.5  321steve  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @11.2.4    2 months ago
It's not as bad being here as you think, Steve, or I would return to Canada if it were.

Wonderful Buzz, I didn't figure you were unhappy from what I've gleaned from your posts. 

I have never lived in a communist controlled country so I have little idea of what the everyday life is like for the average "citizen" I think from what little I've heard I would likely still prefer the freedoms of this country over the safety and even "tranquility " of a one party communist controlled country. ( Freedom  .. Just for one instance full internet, including You Tube) 

I'm old and wise enough to know different countries have different advantages and that I dont know them all.

As an American I do appreciate the freedoms we have. I would not be likely to give that up. 

I have always believed that ya take the good with the bad and that is part of life.  

I also believed without the bad, we wouldnt know what the good is. 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
11.2.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  321steve @11.2.5    2 months ago

Okay, well said.

 
 
321steve
11.2.7  321steve  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @11.2.6    2 months ago
Okay

Thanks, I enjoy learning a little about different lands, cultures, governments and people. Iits a big old world and the variety of life and living is what makes it all worth the struggle of life. 

I enjoy a good sized scope of interest on a variety of subjects, interests and ideologies but am not one to do extensive in death investigation and a great deal of research unless it is something that really catches my interest. (including learning about other lands so my knowledge of living abroad is very limited)

But like I said, I have always been glad I was born where and when I was. (Many people I Know say they would have preferred to be born at either a different time or place.) Not me.

While I am nor have never been "Proud" to be an American (I realised the extent of our problems here at an early age, some of which are hard to be proud of, including how this nation got its American start, genocide) However, I have and hopefully will always be glad that I was born in and live in America. 

PS: I've always been a bit of a rebel. Enough it probably would have not been possible or would have gotten me into much problems in the "wrong" country for being what I've been. So, I think I better just stay right here. lol

Thanks again and Have a nice day or night 

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
11.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  sixpick @11    2 months ago

What a wonderful world it would be if people were actually like Scouts are supposed to be. It's tragic that such goals are disparaged. For so many, some of whom I see here on NT, their goals apparently differ.

http://video.tudou.com/v/XNjI2Mzk0MDU2.html?spm=a2h0k.8191414.0.0&from=s1.8-1-1.2&f=19221418

 
 
Thrawn 31
12  Thrawn 31    2 months ago

Good. A child should never be compelled to pledge allegiance to anything. 

 
 
Misty Mountain
14  Misty Mountain    2 months ago

The flag to me is a symbol of our country. It may not mean much to some, but to me it represents the history, loss of life from people that fought for you and I to have a better life, and for the people that have served and are still serving.  Yes.. it's a cloth, but that cloth happens to be our flag, and I will always honor it.

 
 
Tessylo
14.1  Tessylo  replied to  Misty Mountain @14    2 months ago

That's nice.  It's still just a piece of cloth and a symbol as you say.  I don't pledge anything to a piece of cloth or a symbol.

 
 
It Is ME
14.1.1  It Is ME  replied to  Tessylo @14.1    2 months ago
It's still just a piece of cloth and a symbol as you say.

What does it "Symbolize" ? Thinking 2

I'll give you a "Hint":

"And to "The Republic" for which it "Stands"...….. Thumbs Up 2

 
 
charger 383
15  charger 383    2 months ago

The Pledge would be better without the "under God" part

 
 
lennylynx
15.1  lennylynx  replied to  charger 383 @15    2 months ago

Agreed.  It suggests that atheists are not part of the nation or shouldn't be part of the nation.

 
 
Tessylo
15.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  lennylynx @15.1    2 months ago

I agree also because Under God wasn't added in until after the 'red scare' at the time.  That was in 1954 when Under God was added

 
 
lennylynx
15.1.2  lennylynx  replied to  Tessylo @15.1.1    2 months ago

Ah yes, the old days when we thought there was a Russian hiding behind every rock.  We've certainly got over THAT bit of paranoia in a big way; today the President is a Russian agent and it's no big deal!

 
 
It Is ME
15.1.3  It Is ME  replied to  Tessylo @15.1.1    2 months ago
That was in 1954 when Under God was added

"Founded in 1963 by Madalyn Murray O’Hair, American Atheists has been fighting to protect the absolute separation of religion from government for over 50 years."

Always Love when groups are founded almost 10 years ..... "AFTER THE FACT". angel

 
 
Gordy327
15.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  It Is ME @15.1.3    2 months ago
American Atheists has been fighting to protect the absolute separation of religion from government for over 50 years."

That's a good thing.

Always Love when groups are founded almost 10 years ..... "AFTER THE FACT".

Better late than never. If religion never tried to inject itself into the government, then perhaps such organizations would not have formed to begin with.

 
 
Gordy327
15.2  Gordy327  replied to  charger 383 @15    2 months ago
The Pledge would be better without the "under God" part

Indeed. It wasn't there to begin with.

 
 
Cerenkov
16  Cerenkov    2 months ago

“in an effort to begin our day as a fully inclusive and connected community,” 

Just not inclusive for, you know, actual citizens... 

 
 
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