Trump Voters and the Bitter Elites

Via:  heartland-american  •  2 months ago  •  99 comments

Trump Voters and the Bitter Elites
I know and have experienced first-hand the evils of racism and the malevolence of Nazism. Neither Donald Trump nor virtually all who voted for him are racists or Nazi sympathizers. They are Americans who were uneasy and frightened of the cultural and economic transformation of the United States promulgated by the current iteration of the Ruling Class. They wanted a change and Hillary Clinton was the personification of the overwhelming majority of this self-styled oligarchy: self-dealing, mendacious, narcissistic, and disposed toward socialism and cultural Marxism.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Since the 9th of November 2016, I and 63 million other Americans have been collectively characterized as racists, misogynists, Nazi sympathizers and ignorant simpletons because we voted for Donald Trump.  Whether it is the media, the denizens of Democratic Party, the NeverTrumpers, the elitists or the elitist wannabes, this Greek chorus has been mindlessly spouting these blanket accusations in their revulsion over the unexpected Trump victory.  In their addled thought process this is the only plausible explanation for Hillary Clinton losing.   

I, along with the overwhelming majority of those of us who wear the scarlet letter of having voted for Trump, opted to ignore these ravings and simply get on with our lives while quietly seething over the rhetoric and accusations.   

Hillary's 2016 Election Night "Victory Party" (screen grab VOA)

However, I recently received an infuriating email which required a reply on behalf of my fellow Americans and Trump voters.

Over the years I bought spices on line from Penzeys, a firm located in Wisconsin with 69 stores throughout the country.  Almost immediately after the election, its president William T. Penzey, Jr., sent out a promotional email to their customer base which included an excoriation of Trump and his supporters.  I immediately stopped buying from them and requested my email address be deleted.   However, I continued to receive emails touting various products and promotions along with anti-Trump political commentary.   On the 8th of September I received another promotional email with the following lead-in as a letter to those of us who voted for Trump or any Republican:


I grew up in a Volkswagen bus.  My best friend grew up in his father’s navy coat.  He died a Marine from cancer maybe from a war he fought and was left to clean up after.  I respect you when you are right, and have no patience when you give up your values to unearned race-based praise.  Still, the cliff you are now dropping off of with this week’s events is too steep for anyone to face alone.  They fooled you, and shame on them for that.  But then you let them fool you again, and again, and again.  You and I know what that means.  But always remember, you are not alone.
The good news is that you were raised with the strength to take responsibility for your actions.  Now is the time to use that strength to put things right.  It won’t be easy.  It will be possible.  Now’s maybe the time to use your choice of search engine to type in “Ryan” “Trump” and “textbook” to see, maybe for the first time, that the racism that took over your party long ago was there well before you voted for this administration.  Now maybe this week for the first time you can see it.  I trust you to find your way to make amends and put your actions right.  It’s who you are.

Penzeys is a private entity and its president can say whatever he chooses.  But the condescension and the not so veiled intimation that Trump voters are mindless buffoons drips off the page and is typical of the mindset of the elitist cabal.   I and 63 million of my fellow Americans must make amends for our thoughtless action in voting for someone other than Hillary Clinton?  This is not just the rantings of a narcissistic buffoon but emblematic of far too many in the Ruling Establishment.

As he reveals in his missive, Mr. Penzey and his fellow travelers are obsessed with racism as that is the most common accusation hurled by this clique.  In their addled thought process racism is the sole province of Republicans and those repugnant Trump voters.  In reality, it is far more prevalent among the Left and the Democratic Party.

While Mr. Penzey was a toddler playing in his parents’ coffee and spice shop during the mid-1960’s, I was actively involved in the Civil Rights Movement.  Beyond the overt and venomous racist policies of the Democratic Party in the South, there was another notable phenomenon I noticed -- the racism endemic among the self-righteous liberals.

The motivation of the overwhelming majority of white participants in the Civil Rights Movement fell into three categories.  The first, and the most active group, were the hard-core leftists who viewed the Black proletariat as potential foot soldiers as well as a gullible constituency to be recruited in overturning the government and establishing a socialist nirvana.  The second, and the largest faction, were the liberals who viewed African-Americans as a population to be pitied, patted on the head and made dependent mascots so these pompous narcissists could wallow in their self-righteousness.  The third, and by far the smallest group, motivated by Judeo-Christian teachings and respect for the humanity of their fellow citizens, became involved in order to permanently eradicate institutional racism throughout the country.

In order to sow animosity and discontentment in the Black community, the Left today fabricates and shouts incessantly about racism when there is none.  They promote social and economic policies that obliterate the Black family.  They tacitly endorse Eugenics through unfettered abortion access and active promotion of abortions in the inner cities so that Black women account for 36% of all abortions (when Blacks make up 12% of the population).  They manipulate what is taught in the schools, so ignorance prevails, and the Black citizenry can thus be easily stage-managed into a monolithic voting bloc for the Democratic Party. 

These actions are a manifestation of virulent and pernicious racism, for they can ultimately undermine and destroy a race.  This bigotry is solely the province of the Left.  Meanwhile, the cancer that is antisemitism is also rapidly metastasizing throughout the Left and the Democratic Party.  

The overt racism of a few thousand (at most) members of the Ku Klux Klan or a couple of hundred thousand White Supremacists out of a population of 320 million people in a nation the size of the continent of Europe is no more than a nuisance and politically impotent.  Yet the Left, the media and the elites portray these outcasts as mainstream conservatives and Republicans in order to paint 63 million Tump voters as racists.  The reality is that this left-wing cabal is not only guilty of racism, but through their tacit support of the violent Antifa movement and aggressive suppression of free speech, they are no more than authoritarian sympathizers.

To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen in the 1988 Vice Presidential debate: I know and have experienced first-hand the evils of racism and the malevolence of Nazism.  Neither Donald Trump nor virtually all who voted for him are racists or Nazi sympathizers. 

They are Americans who were uneasy and frightened of the cultural and economic transformation of the United States promulgated by the current iteration of the Ruling Class. They wanted a change and Hillary Clinton was the personification of the overwhelming majority of this self-styled oligarchy: self-dealing, mendacious, narcissistic, and disposed toward socialism and cultural Marxism.

Mr. Penzey, I and my fellow 63 million Americans do not have make amends for a damn thing.   Perhaps you and your fellow elitists should make amends for foisting Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and an unabashedly neo-socialist, racist and authoritarian Democratic Party on the nation.

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MBFC really sucks
1  seeder  MBFC really sucks    2 months ago

“Since the 9th of November 2016, I and 63 million other Americans have been collectively characterized as racists, misogynists, Nazi sympathizers and ignorant simpletons because we voted for Donald Trump.  Whether it is the media, the denizens of Democratic Party, the NeverTrumpers, the elitists or the elitist wannabes, this Greek chorus has been mindlessly spouting these blanket accusations in their revulsion over the unexpected Trump victory.  In their addled thought process this is the only plausible explanation for Hillary Clinton losing.   

I, along with the overwhelming majority of those of us who wear the scarlet letter of having voted for Trump, opted to ignore these ravings and simply get on with our lives while quietly seething over the rhetoric and accusations.”

 
 
Skrekk
1.1  Skrekk  replied to  MBFC really sucks @1    2 months ago
“Since the 9th of November 2016, I and 63 million other Americans have been collectively characterized as racists, misogynists, Nazi sympathizers and ignorant simpletons because we voted for Donald Trump."

That sounds like a very accurate assessment of Trump voters but it missed a few things like their Islamophobia, xenophobia, homophobia and transphobia.

 
 
Texan1211
1.2  Texan1211  replied to  MBFC really sucks @1    2 months ago

Let them.

Who cares what they think?

They still haven't figured out how they managed to lose to Donald Fucking Trump, and it eats at them like a cancer.

And because they haven't figured that out yet, it may cost them some seats in the midterms.

It must suck having to admit every single day with every single criticism of Trump that they simply didn't beat him, and don't even know how to do it.

 
 
Bob Nelson
2  Bob Nelson    2 months ago
Since the 9th of November 2016, I and 63 million other Americans have been collectively characterized as racists, misogynists, Nazi sympathizers and ignorant simpletons because we voted for Donald Trump.

No.

The seed is stupidly wrong, beginning with this first sentence.

I have characterized Donald Trump as a neo-Nazi sympathizer as of Charlottseville, when a neo-Nazi killed... ... and Trump refused to condemn the act. I haven't called him a Nazi, nor have I seen any significant person do so. I persist in calling him a sympathizer, because his own actions prove it.

Trump has often been called a racist... because he is a racist... and has proved it over and over...

Trump has often been called a mysogynist ... because he is a misogynist... and has proved it over and over...

...  and so on...

Trumpsters' self-pity is ridiculous.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  Bob Nelson @2    2 months ago

“Hillary Clinton was the personification of the overwhelming majority of this self-styled oligarchy: self-dealing, mendacious, narcissistic, and disposed toward socialism and cultural Marxism.

Mr. Penzey, I and my fellow 63 million Americans do not have make amends for a damn thing.   Perhaps you and your fellow elitists should make amends for foisting Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and an unabashedly neo-socialist, racist and authoritarian Democratic Party on the nation.”

 
 
Bob Nelson
2.1.1  Bob Nelson  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1    2 months ago
Hillary Clinton was... disposed toward socialism and cultural Marxism.

That is s-o-o-o absurd that the person who pronounces it is immediately disqualified.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1.2  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  Bob Nelson @2.1.1    2 months ago

Hillary is socialist leaning.  I love the Hillary victory party 🎈 photo above.  My kind of party for them.  

 
 
TᵢG
2.1.3  TᵢG  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.2    2 months ago

Good grief man.   Hillary is firmly capitalist.   

 
 
Bob Nelson
2.1.4  Bob Nelson  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.2    2 months ago
Hillary is socialist leaning.

Don't be ridiculous.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1.5  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.3    2 months ago

She is the definition of oligarchical socialism.  

 
 
TᵢG
2.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.5    2 months ago

Man I do not know about you.   Hillary a socialist?    Eye Roll

The oligarchic part is spot on for Hillary.   The socialist part is ridiculous.

And, by the way, oligarchical socialism is an oxymoron.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1.7  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.6    2 months ago

No it’s not.  

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.8  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.7    2 months ago

Yes it is. Laugh

 
 
MrFrost
2.1.10  MrFrost  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.2    2 months ago
Hillary is socialist leaning.

Really? LMAO!!!

 
 
MrFrost
2.1.11  MrFrost  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.6    2 months ago
And, by the way, oligarchical socialism is an oxymoron

Yep, exactly. But then so is, "fascist liberal", but they bleat it anyway. 

 
 
devangelical
2.1.12  devangelical  replied to  MrFrost @2.1.11    2 months ago

tea party patriots

 
 
TᵢG
2.1.13  TᵢG  replied to    2 months ago
Why do we have to put up with this nonsense?

Freedom of expression.

I just do not understand why some are not embarrassed to write nonsense that portrays profound ignorance.    One should do at least a tiny bit of research, right?

My hypothesis is that some will put forth nonsense simply to cause others to generate comments for their article.    Even if it makes the author appear foolish.   

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1.15  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to    2 months ago

Are you advocating for the censorship of political ideas that you disagree with.  Why are progressives generally across America so intolerant of opinion they don’t like? Why are conservatives so much more calm and tolerant generally when they see posts, articles, or headlines they don’t like?  

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1.16  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  MrFrost @2.1.11    2 months ago

Actually the correct term is liberal fascists and it applies to those running Twitter, Alphabet, You Tube, Google, Amazon and other on line platforms too numerous to name them all.  

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1.18  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  devangelical @2.1.12    2 months ago

Tea Party Patriots are awesome and are great Americans!  The best of the best in our exceptional America.  

 
 
devangelical
2.1.19  devangelical  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.18    2 months ago

an extinct parody of extreme political ignorance after the midterms

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1.20  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to    2 months ago

Why not follow a spirit of comity and engage in civil discourse even when you strongly disagree with what I have to say.  Why do liberals need such coddling or the right to insult those who dare to disagree and say so?

 
 
bbl-1
2.1.21  bbl-1  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.15    2 months ago

Political ideas that are unexplainable, false and rooted in fear, division and lies are not 'political ideas.'  They are right wing anarchy.  After all, right wing government only succeeds when the populace are defeated through fear and terror. 

 
 
MrFrost
2.1.22  MrFrost  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.16    2 months ago
Actually the correct term is liberal fascists

Wrong. Liberalism is at the exact opposite end of the political spectrum from fascism. I have told you that, and posted the book definition MANY times. 

 
 
sandy-2021492
2.1.23  sandy-2021492  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.20    2 months ago
Why do liberals need such coddling or the right to insult those who dare to disagree and say so?

Is that consistent with civil discourse?

 
 
devangelical
2.1.24  devangelical  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.20    2 months ago
spirit of comity

like this seed?

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1.25  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.23    2 months ago

Demanding that liberals engage others using civility and comity in political dialogue does promote a healthier environment if they actually begin to do so.  

 
 
Bob Nelson
2.1.26  Bob Nelson  replied to  MrFrost @2.1.22    2 months ago
Actually the correct term is liberal fascists
Wrong. Liberalism is at the exact opposite end of the political spectrum from fascism. I have told you that, and posted the book definition MANY times. 

"Liberal fascists" is an obvious abuse of the English language, and of political science. So of course some NT members use the term...

Do they use it from ignorance or from intent to deceive? I would suggest an answer, but talking about what some members actually do, right in front of our faces, is a CoC violation.

 
 
sandy-2021492
2.1.27  sandy-2021492  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.25    2 months ago

Your headline is inconsistent with your stated goals.

[Removed

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.1.28  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  Bob Nelson @2.1.26    2 months ago

Disagreeing with progressives is a coc violation?  Not yet it isn’t.  

 
 
Bob Nelson
2.1.29  Bob Nelson  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.1.28    2 months ago

That isn't what I said. Please read more carefully.

 
 
sandy-2021492
2.1.30  sandy-2021492  replied to    2 months ago
We should not have to tip toe around ridiculous comments

Apparently, we now can't even call lies what they are.  I have no problem with not calling a person a liar, but now I can't call a lie and lie, while HA can go around seeding article after article that contain false sweeping generalizations about liberals and nonchristians.

 
 
Rmando
2.2  Rmando  replied to  Bob Nelson @2    2 months ago

Where exactly did Trump not condemn the Charlottesville violence?

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/14/context-president-donald-trumps-saturday-statement/

"But we're closely following the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville, Va.. We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides. It's been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. This has been going on for a long, long time. It has no place in America. What is vital now is a swift restoration of law and order and the protection of innocent lives. No citizen should ever fear for their safety and security in our society. And no child should ever be afraid to go outside and play or be with their parents and have a good time.

 
 
Bob Nelson
2.2.1  Bob Nelson  replied to  Rmando @2.2    2 months ago
I have characterized Donald Trump as a neo-Nazi sympathizer as of Charlottseville, when a neo-Nazi killed... ... and Trump refused to condemn the act.
 
 
Rmando
2.2.2  Rmando  replied to  Bob Nelson @2.2.1    2 months ago

Yes, that was your willful misconception. Apparently your denial is strong.

 
 
MrFrost
2.2.3  MrFrost  replied to  Rmando @2.2    2 months ago

IMG_20171022_052823.jpg

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.2.4  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Rmando @2.2    2 months ago
"But we're closely following the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville, Va.. We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides. It's been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. This has been going on for a long, long time. It has no place in America. What is vital now is a swift restoration of law and order and the protection of innocent lives. No citizen should ever fear for their safety and security in our society. And no child should ever be afraid to go outside and play or be with their parents and have a good time.

And, were did Trump say these "Neo-Nazi's" were? Oh that's right, "on many sides", yep, that's condemning them alright. Eye Roll

 
 
Rmando
2.2.5  Rmando  replied to  MrFrost @2.2.3    2 months ago

There are no doubt some very fine people in the 66% of the country that don't want Confederate monuments moved. No doubt a lot of whiny unpatriotic millionaires paid to play a game are sons of bitches.

 
 
Rmando
2.2.6  Rmando  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.2.4    2 months ago

Many sides includes the neo Nazis, the violent protestors who came to fight them (not the ones protesting the neo Nazis peacefully) and the incompetent city officials whose ineptitude allowed things to spiral out of control.

I'm guessing you aren't aware the city govt commissioned a study to find out what went wrong and the blame was put on the mayor and the police there.

 
 
devangelical
2.2.7  devangelical  replied to  Rmando @2.2.5    2 months ago
some very fine people in the 66% of the country that don't want Confederate monuments moved

why glorify a bunch of unamerican racist insurgents that lost a war. take down their statues and change the names of streets, bases, and buildings. to the victor goes the spoils, 153 years later. they lost, get over it. sound familiar?

 
 
Rmando
2.2.8  Rmando  replied to  devangelical @2.2.7    2 months ago

The point isn't whether the statues should be standing. The point is that reasonable people who aren't fascists can have a difference of opinion on the matter.

 
 
devangelical
2.2.9  devangelical  replied to  Rmando @2.2.8    2 months ago

white supremacists and confederate sympathizers aren't reasonable people

 
 
Rmando
2.2.11  Rmando  replied to  devangelical @2.2.9    2 months ago

Some people have no sympathy for the Confederacy but aren't comfortable with wanton destruction of historical artifacts or censoring history.

 
 
devangelical
2.2.13  devangelical  replied to  Rmando @2.2.11    2 months ago

relics and memorials of the defeated enemies of the US belong in books, museums, or landfills

 
 
bbl-1
2.2.14  bbl-1  replied to  devangelical @2.2.7    2 months ago

"Sound familiar?"  Nah.  Conservatism has no memory, honor or soul.

 
 
bbl-1
2.2.15  bbl-1  replied to  Rmando @2.2.6    2 months ago

Uh gee, Mr. Rmando.  My father was in the Normandy Invasion and his battalion killed or captured every Nazi they encountered. 

I take great offence at your categorizing my father and his fellow American Patriots as little more than "Violent Protestors." 

Even here in America the struggle to defeat the Nazis continues.  How can you defend them?  Why do you defend them?   

 
 
arkpdx
2.2.16  arkpdx  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.2.4    2 months ago

Aahh you are just upset that he placed  the hate and violent label on your good buddies, the antifa groups. 

 
 
Rmando
2.2.17  Rmando  replied to  bbl-1 @2.2.15    2 months ago

I take great offense that you compare the brave soldiers who fought real Nazis to ignorant brown shirt Antifa thugs that beat up reporters and Bernie Sanders supporters. When did anyone who fought in Normandy beat up a report and throw urine on him?

 
 
Rmando
2.2.18  Rmando  replied to    2 months ago

The left doesn't care about history. They only want to tear down statues like Isis because it's easier than admitting the failed socialist policies of LBJ have caused more poverty and misery in poor minority neighborhoods than any fringe racist group today. It's a lot easier to gripe about somebody who's been dead for 150 years then to stop the carnage in the inner cities.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.2.19  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  arkpdx @2.2.16    2 months ago
Aahh you are just upset that he placed  the hate and violent label on your good buddies, the antifa groups.

It wasn't an Antifa protester who murdered a woman at the Charlottesville protest.

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.20  JumpDrive  replied to  Rmando @2.2.18    2 months ago
... failed socialist policies of LBJ have caused more poverty and misery in poor minority neighborhoods ...

When I pass through poor neighborhoods, I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people protesting Medicare & Medicaid. The reason I can't tell you is because I've never seen it and never will.

The poverty rate in 1964 was 19%, in 2017 it was 12.3%. Since 1970, the poverty rate cycles between 12% and 15% following the economy's booms and busts.

 
 
Rmando
2.2.21  Rmando  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.20    2 months ago

That's a miserable return on the trillions that were spent to ELIMINATE poverty, not knock it down a few percentage points. The welfare programs have incentivized poverty and encouraged reckless behavior. There's no reason for someone with no goals in life to even try. They're better off collecting free stuff.

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.22  JumpDrive  replied to  Rmando @2.2.21    2 months ago
That's a miserable return...

Each percentage point reduction is 32 million people. 5 points represents 160 million people not living in poverty. Tell them they're not worth it.

Maybe you should direct your anger at Republicans who just gave 1.5 Trillion (really looking more like 2.1 Trillion) mostly to people who do not need it. Republicans who set up the Social Security Surplus Trust Fund so they could spend that 2.6 Trillion dollars on the military-industrial complex and tax breaks for the wealthy. The same Republicans who are trying to decrease SS benefits for Americans who worked hard for a decent retirement.

 
 
Texan1211
2.2.23  Texan1211  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.22    2 months ago

Please show us where the govt. gave any money to those rich folks.

And please remember that allowing someone to keep more of their own money isn't giving them money.

 
 
Rmando
2.2.24  Rmando  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.22    2 months ago

160 million people is half the population of the country. Something tells me your math is a bit fuzzy. In case you didn't notice we are $21 trillion in debt. Our entitlement system is unsustainable. If you want to be angry at something then be angry at the people who abuse the system for years and years and hurt the ones who legitimately need help. There's a reason welfare has dropped in states that pass work requirement laws, like Maine did.

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.25  JumpDrive  replied to  Rmando @2.2.24    2 months ago

You're right, I shifted the decimal point right one digit. The number should be 16 million. You can tell them they don't matter.

 
 
Rmando
2.2.26  Rmando  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.25    2 months ago

If they are people who are cheating the system I'll gladly tell them they don't matter.

If they are the ones that used the system to pull themselves up and are now contributing to society I'll congratulate them for escaping the trap.

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.27  JumpDrive  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2.23    2 months ago
And please remember that allowing someone to keep more of their own money isn't giving them money.

This is stupid. Taxes are the price of civilization. If you want police, fire, military, education, a transportation infrastructure, etc. then a progressive tax system is the only way to provide that and not have people starving and dying in the streets. The people making a lot of money have built their fortunes on top of the investments made by everyone, and they should be paying substantially more. Do you think a corporation like Apple could be built in Uganda? Choosing to define lowering taxes as not giving people more money is silly; the Republicans have always billed their tax cuts as everyone getting lots more money. It's just that those who need it most get the least while those who need it least get the most. I remember the hype leading into TRA86, and also the abysmal results.

In the following chart, note the right side, how the money is distributed by income level. Top income levels not only get more as a percentage, but more of the total available. 

IFTT7BD6XY27FLMIBJDR6ILNGE.png

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.28  JumpDrive  replied to  Rmando @2.2.24    2 months ago
Our entitlement system is unsustainable.

Getting old in this country used to be a descent into poverty and disease for most Americans. Social Security and Medicare changed that. The welfare programs have one of the most sophisticated, cross-indexed data systems in the Federal government. Fraud in SNAP is a few percent, TANF is under 10%, and they are always working to make those numbers better. So, 19 out of 20 people getting food assistance qualify. 9 out of 10 getting money when they are looking for jobs qualify. These programs really help people who are down on their luck, killing these programs because some people abuse them is ridiculous. Especially since the abusers are a small and shrinking percentage.

No sane person would want to return to the Gilded Age where more than half the population was subsistance living. We are an incredibly wealthy nation that can easily take care of the those in need. We just can't do this by allowing the massive transfer of wealth to the top that Republicans constantly push. This Republican behavior is unsustainable.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.2.29  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.28    2 months ago

Actually the rich benefit less than most due to the new tax rules. The nationwide cap on the mortgage interest deductibility at 750k and the nationwide cap on state and local taxes at 10k means that the rich who used to protect mansions with the first deduction and income with the second no longer can.  Only rich people carry mortgages over $750,000.00 or pay more than $10,000.00 in state income and local property taxes each year.  

 
 
Texan1211
2.2.30  Texan1211  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.27    2 months ago

I never claimed that I wanted NO taxes, and it is wrong to make your argument assuming that is what I advocate for.

I want govt. waste stopped. I think we spend way to much on completely unnecessary things.

I would love to see a balanced budget amendment but realize that as long as political parties can "bring home the bacon" for their communities or states, we will continue to have a spending problem.

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.31  JumpDrive  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.2.29    2 months ago
Actually the rich benefit less...

Supposing a rich couple has a taxable income of $600K (no deduction for state/mortgage/property). In 2017, they would owe $193K in Fed taxes, in 2018, $161K. A decrease of $32K. In order to get a 32K decrease in their 2017 taxes, their excess state tax + property tax + mortgage interest would have to provide an $81K deduction. Seems unlikely.

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.32  JumpDrive  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2.30    2 months ago
I think we spend way to much on completely unnecessary things.

I agree, but I'm sure we disagree on what's unnecessary. PayGo was pushed on Clinton so that he couldn't deficit spend. The deficit fell from $347B in 1993 to $113B in 2001. PayGo was allowed to expire by GWB. He then went on the deficit spent like there was no tomorrow. Exactly what Republicans are doing now. Reagan's "the gov't is the problem" poisoned our ability to use the gov't to prosper.

Nobody wants waste, but this country was built by government programs. For example, the gov't is largely responsible for populating the west. It used the army to get rid of the Indians, it subsidized the railroads to get the people out there, and it gave away land to entice them to go. The middle class was pretty much built by the GI Bill giving 15 million returning soldiers access to low interest loans for businesses, homes and education. This was paid for with marginal tax rates of 80-90%. Those taxes we also used for infrastructure building. Those rates were still 60-70% when Reagan took office. Reagan began the massive transfer of wealth to the already rich, the vilification of the poor, and the destruction of worker protections. He is where the crippling income inequality and debt we see today started.

 
 
igknorantzrulz
2.2.33  igknorantzrulz  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.32    2 months ago
protections. He is where the crippling income inequality and debt we see today started.

and asz long asz the GOP continues to make education an option for oh so many, specifically the "middle class, we will continue to see our country decline 

and that's the way the GOP would like it.  

 
 
Texan1211
2.2.34  Texan1211  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.32    2 months ago

Wow.

Amazing that Reagan managed to destroy America with the blessing of both parties.

And, miraculously, despite the number of Presidents and Congresses we have had since him, we didn't change anything.

SMH

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.35  JumpDrive  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2.34    2 months ago

When Reagan took office the marginal tax rates on the rich were 60-70%, when he left, 28%. The Reagan Administration convinced us baby boomers that our social security would be too much of a burden for the workforce when we started retiring so we needed a Surplus Trust Fund. We agreed, but this money was dumped into the general revenue and spent leaving the next generation with $2.6 Trillion in IOUs. We entered the Reagan presidency with a deficit of $90B, but because of Republican fiscal irresponsibility, we exited the first Bush’s Presidency with a deficit of $347B and high unemployment.

At the end of the Clinton Presidency the deficit had been decreased by 2/3rds to $115B, we had full employment and a booming economy. The end of the second Bush presidency was a cratering economy, losing 700,000 jobs/month, millions losing their homes, two auto companies in bankruptcy, a stock market in the toilet and a deficit of $1.8 Trillion.
Obama took this and handed off a booming economy, full employment, record business profits and productivity, record high stock market, and a deficit again reduced by 2/3rds to $666B.

Now Republicans are back in, we’re not even two years into their reign and the deficit is already at $1.2 Trillion. Our economy is a juggernaut, it took the GWB Administration 6-7 years to destroy it. The Trump Administration is following the same trajectory.

And, miraculously, despite the number of Presidents and Congresses we have had since him, we didn't change anything

It’s not for lack of trying by Democrats, it just the persistent ignorance of Republican voters that sets us back cyclically.

 
 
Texan1211
2.2.36  Texan1211  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.35    2 months ago

Please, Democrats have been in the WH and controlled Congress at some points since Reagan was in office.

Had they been serious enough, it could have happened.

It certainly didn't happen under the GOP, either.

The only thing is I am more than willing to admit it.

Some still think only one party has done poorly.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.2.37  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  devangelical @2.2.9    2 months ago

What was it that Lincoln said about the South and those who fought for it at the end of the civil war and after?  

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.2.38  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  devangelical @2.2.13    2 months ago

All the members of the CSA military who died in battle are now deemed to be American soldiers and those who survived were considered as USA 🇺🇸 veterans.  Also, all southern states are reconciled with and the USA and readmitted as states in our Union.  Since the big demographic shift of people from the north to the Sunbelt from 1970 to present it means that large pluralities of people in the south are either from the north or the offspring of those who were.  

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.2.39  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.31    2 months ago
  • I never claimed that the rich didn’t get any tax reduction at all.  And all should get a reduction.  Why assume that all rich have already paid off their mortgage in full? If they haven’t and have a two million dollar home and owe one million on it, the 250k difference between the mortgage and cap would capture significant revenue.  Also a 600,000 income subjected to a 10% state income tax rate would be 60,000 and now instead of all of it being deducted at the federal level, only 10k of it will be and 18500 more will be paid at the 37% rate on that 50k and none of their property taxes would be deductible at the federal level
 
 
Skrekk
2.2.40  Skrekk  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.2.38    2 months ago
All the members of the CSA military who died in battle are now deemed to be American soldiers and those who survived were considered as USA 🇺🇸 veterans.

Most of us just call them rather pathetic losers and racist traitors.     Seriously, isn't it rather revealing of their own profound inadequacy that they couldn't even build a separate country without raping slaves and using the free labor of slaves?    If anything it's an admission of white inferiority not white supremacy......at least in those southern confederate states.    But I guess that's why Trump calls them "very fine people" as a way of propping up the egos of his white supremacist buddies.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.2.41  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  Skrekk @2.2.40    2 months ago

You realize that not one of the democrats involved in creating the confederacy or fighting for it are still alive today?  You also realize that much of the population of the south today is made up of your former northern neighbors who moved down there in the last 50 years and their children? 

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.42  JumpDrive  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.2.39    2 months ago
 Why assume that all rich have already paid off their mortgage in full?

I didn't assume that, I computed their tax as if they had no deductions. Then I said that they would need the deductions taken away from them to total 81K in order to be paying the same amount of taxes as with the Trump cut.

So, say they have 750K of mortgage that's no longer deductible; 750K over 30 years at 4.5% is 44k/year. Mostly interest in the beginning, mostly principle at the end. So say 22K deduction average. Let's put them in AZ, they would no longer be able to deduct 26K of state tax. Let's say their $1.5M house is actually assessed at 1.5 and they pay the maximum rate (both unlikely); then 22K taxes. So their deduction would have been 22+26+22-10=60K, still less that the 81K break even. And remember, lots of rich people live in states with *no* income tax,, so they just win because they lost no deduction. A 1.5M home in AZ would be spectacular. Rich people won big in most cases.

 
 
MUVA
2.2.43  MUVA  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.42    2 months ago

What do you consider rich anyone that makes more money than you?

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.44  JumpDrive  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2.36    2 months ago
Please, Democrats have been in the WH and controlled Congress at some points since Reagan was in office. Had they been serious enough, it could have happened.

They tried. No congress has had a veto-proof majority starting with Reagan, so any law passed required presidential OK. Here’s a list of how much the gov’t was borrowing at the end of each presidency:
FY 2018 so far Trump, deficit $1.2T
FY 2017 End of Obama, deficit $666B
FY 2009 End of Bush II, deficit $1.9T
FY 2001 End of Clinton, deficit $133B
FY 1993 End of Bush I, deficit $347B
FY 1989 End of Reagan, deficit $255B
FY 1981 End of Carter, deficit $90B

Note how gov’t borrowing increases under Republicans and decreases under Democrats.

Here’s the difference I see: Democrats are operating on good faith; they’re trying to do what’s best for people. Sometimes the programs work, sometimes they don’t. No such good faith is in play with Republicans. GWB and Trump both inherited strong economies with full employment. Their first order of business was to cut taxes which drives up the deficit/debt. When you are in a strong economic position, you pay down your debts, not massively increase them.

They lie about the necessity of tax cuts because they want to transfer wealth to the already wealthy; this is bad faith. They do not intend to help the middle class and below. The 22 million people who got health care through ACA are working class Americans. The Trump tax cut is expected to take healthcare from 9 million of them. Many Republican governors denied the Medicaid expansion for the working poor, so about 8 million never got the healthcare coverage ACA intended. If Republicans got their way all 22 million would lose it. Two examples of bad faith.

 
 
Texan1211
2.2.45  Texan1211  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.44    2 months ago

You didn't pay attention to what I wrote, although you did mange to quote me.

Please, Democrats have been in the WH and controlled Congress at some pointssince Reagan was in office. Had they been serious enough, it could have happened.

Please explain why a Democratic President would veto a sensible spending bill passed by a Democratic Congress.

That doesn't make a lick of sense, and you know it.

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.46  JumpDrive  replied to  MUVA @2.2.43    2 months ago
What do you consider rich anyone that makes more money than you?

Let me answer this way: I was uninterested in politics when Republicans were hyping how much people would get back from TRA86. My best friend was excited because he thought his family’s lot would improve significantly. He was making a bit more than the median income. He got about $300. I don’t remember the exact amount, but I do remember exactly what he said: “It’s not even a dollar a day”. It would be more than two decades before I would tell him what I got. I was making six times as much as him. I got $13,700, 40+ times as much as he got. The important thing to note here is that what he got had a minimal effect on his situation, and what I got had no effect on mine. If you’re like me, and what you earn is just a bunch of numbers you don’t have to think about, you’re rich.

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.47  JumpDrive  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2.45    2 months ago
Please explain why a Democratic President would veto a sensible spending bill passed by a Democratic Congress.

If you note how deficits go down under Democratic presidents and up under Republican presidents, it it doesn't look like a Democratic president vetoed sensible spending. I guaranty that a Democratic president would have vetoed the recent "Tax Cuts and Jobs Act" because we currently have a strong economy and should be working on paying down the debt rather than adding 2+ trillion to it.

 
 
Texan1211
2.2.48  Texan1211  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.47    2 months ago

Agree to disagree.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.2.49  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.42    2 months ago

People in a state with no state income tax deduct sales tax instead on their federal returns.  The same combined local property tax state sales tax cap of 10k remains. 

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.50  JumpDrive  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.2.49    2 months ago
People in a state with no state income tax deduct sales tax instead on their federal returns.

That's true, but in order for the family in my example to have been paying as little tax as they pay now, they needed 81K in deductions before the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. In AZ, sales tax is about 10%, that would be $810,000 in purchases which is not likely; half of that is not likely for a family earning $600K.

 
 
MUVA
2.2.51  MUVA  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.46    2 months ago

What do you consider rich? 

 
 
MUVA
2.2.52  MUVA  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.47    2 months ago

If the congress cut spending the deficit would go down and the people that earn the money could actually keep it.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.2.53  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  JumpDrive @2.2.50    2 months ago

Your splitting hairs is ridiculous.  I said that the cap on mortgage interest deduction and the cap on state and local tax deductions significantly reduced the benefit to the rich of their top tax rate being reduced from 39.6% to 37%.  I never made the claim that it was designed to claw back every penny of their tax reduction. The caps did reduce the static model cost of the tax cut from 150b a year for 10 years to 110b for that time or from 1.5 t to 1.1 t.  Of course the additional economic growth generated has actually increased revenue from last year to this one.  

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.2.54  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  MUVA @2.2.51    2 months ago

Notice how they never answer that question nor do they ever answer what would be a “fair share” percentage of ones income that the rich should pay as a percentage of their income in combined federal, state, and local taxes of all types.    

 
 
MBFC really sucks
2.2.55  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  MUVA @2.2.52    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.56  JumpDrive  replied to  MBFC really sucks @2.2.53    2 months ago
I said that the cap on mortgage interest deduction and the cap on state and local tax deductions significantly reduced the benefit to the rich of their top tax rate being reduced from 39.6% to 37%.

This is true, but my point is that they still come out winners. See the graph in my 2.2.27 post.

Of course the additional economic growth generated has actually increased revenue from last year to this one.

This may be true, but the expected effect of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act predicted by the Republicans passing the Act is to increase the Debt by at least 1.5 trillion (looking like 2+ trillion at this point). If the revenue increase was significant, we should see the deficit declining, or at least not increasing at such a dramatic rate ($666B last year, $1.2T this year).

 
 
JumpDrive
2.2.57  JumpDrive  replied to  MUVA @2.2.51    2 months ago
What do you consider rich?

This depends upon where you live, education costs, medical costs, ... so for an 'average' family, in Orlando, FL, $200K would probably be rich; in NYC it would probably be $400K. That why I answered your question the way I did in 2.2.46. So, on average, probably north of $200K.

In 1975, the top rate was 70% for income over $100K (which would be an income of about $480K now). The top tax rates were even higher in the decades before that. That money was used to fund programs like the GI Bill which contributed mightily to the building of the middle class in the 40s, 50, & 60s. My father used the GI Bill to dramatically change my family's future for the better. I have no problem paying it forward.

 
 
MrFrost
3  MrFrost    2 months ago
Trump Voters And The Bitter Elites

Bitter Elites? We talking about the people trump hired? I mean, everyone he hired was at LEAST a multi millionaire. 

 
 
bbl-1
3.1  bbl-1  replied to  MrFrost @3    2 months ago

Bitter elites indeed.  DeVos, Mnuchin and that slimy Ross for starters.

 
 
MBFC really sucks
3.2  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  MrFrost @3    2 months ago

The people Trump hired  are not the bitter ones.  That applies to the followers of the wicked witch Hillary Clinton. 

 
 
Skrekk
4  Skrekk    2 months ago
Over the years I bought spices on line from Penzeys, a firm located in Wisconsin with 69 stores throughout the country.  Almost immediately after the election, its president William T. Penzey, Jr., sent out a promotional email to their customer base which included an excoriation of Trump and his supporters.  I immediately stopped buying from them and requested my email address be deleted. 

As a Wisconsinite I was delighted that Penzey called a spade a spade, so to speak.    He was also 100% correct in his assessment of Trump and his racist base.    Who else would vote for the racist King of the Birthers who thinks that white supremacists and neoconfederates are "very fine people"?

 
 
MBFC really sucks
4.1  seeder  MBFC really sucks  replied to  Skrekk @4    2 months ago

Penzey is an idiot.  He sacrificed half his customers as future buyers of his products by attacking them for their political beliefs.  

 
 
Skrekk
4.1.1  Skrekk  replied to  MBFC really sucks @4.1    2 months ago

I'm sure that Penzey pissed off a few racist freaks.    There's no doubt that Penzey gained far more loyal customers who like to buy from ethical companies which don't support racist morons.

In a letter addressed to “America’s CEOs” posted to his Facebook page that December, Penzey wrote that, in the two weeks following his post-election e-mail, the “right wing firestorm” cost the company three per cent of its customers—but that online sales rose nearly sixty per cent in the same period, and gift-box sales increased by more than double that.
Recent studies show that today’s consumers feel more allegiance to companies that take a position—any position—on major political issues, and that those pesky millennials are going out of their way to support companies led by figures who take left-leaning, progressive positions. In other words, Penzey is a savvy salesman who’s figured out how to capitalize on the political outrage of the Trump era and social media’s way of amplifying it—which might seem cynical if his political outrage weren’t so obviously real.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/ceo-who-called-trump-racist-penzeys-spice-mix

.

So it sounds like Bill Penzey is both highly ethical and a very smart and successful businessman.    Why bother selling to racist losers anyway when you can make far more money selling to good people?

 
 
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