Rabbi With ‘Jews for Jesus’ Gives Prayer at Pence Rally, Causing Backlash
At a campaign stop in Michigan on Monday, Vice President Mike Pence condemned anti-Semitism and the deadly massacre at Pittsburgh synagogue, and asked “a leader in the Jewish community” to offer a prayer for the victims and the country.
As he began his prayer, it became immediately clear that the rabbi, Loren Jacobs of Congregation Shema Yisrael in suburban Detroit, would not be considered a Jew by any of the four major denominations of Judaism. In his prayer, he mentioned the “saving power” of the Lord and concluded, “In the name of Jesus, amen.”
Rabbi Jacobs believes that Jesus is the Messiah, a conviction that is theologically incompatible with Judaism. Some Jews believe that the movement the rabbi represents, Messianic Judaism, is not only antithetical to Judaism but also hostile to their religion because its goal is to convince Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah, and by doing so convert Jewish people to Christianity.
Rabbi Jacobs, a leading figure in the denomination colloquially known as Jews for Jesus, quickly came under criticism on Monday for appearing to represent Jews at the rally and for leading the only prayer by a religious figure at the event for the 11 people and six others injured in the shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue on Saturday.
“For the record, Messianic ‘Judaism’ is a branch of Christianity & offensive to the Jewish community,” Rabbi Miller wrote in a separate tweet . “It was an insulting political stunt.”
Through an aide, Rabbi Jacobs declined an interview request. In an explanation of his beliefs on his congregation’s website, he wrote that while Jewish people are the “chosen people,” they must accept Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven.
The modern movement of Messianic Judaism is relatively new and started to take shape with the help of mass media. Some of the first religious groups that claimed to be both Jewish and believers in Jesus of Nazareth, such as the American Board of Missions to the Jews, were transparent with their mission: Proselytize to Jews.
Read more at the seeded content
You just can't make this stuff up.
Truth is stranger than fiction.
But that's the essence of the evangelical relationship with Jews - "we're with you as long as you agree with our apocalyptic view of the world and what it means for Jews", + extra Jesus.
I heard about this the other day. I wondered what real Jews were going to say about it.
I think Pence should apologize to the Jewish community for his stunning arrogance
At least one made the effort to talk about it:
This one seems to be cut from the same cloth:
.
I understand that rabbi Aderet is already a known quantity - a true right wing freakazoid. Funny how people like Trump and Aderet don't recognize that it's the hate they spew which inspires this sort of violence.
"Oops"!
heh. The king of understatement. Long live the king.
Dear Friend Devangelical: Wink wink. Nudge nudge.
E.
What a nice way to put it.
Dear Friend and Sister in Spirit PJ:
Smiles.
Cyber hugs to a Genuinely Nice Lady and Person.
P&AB.
Enoch.
You're so cute.
I just don't get it. Did Pence not know that this was totally insulting?
Pence is so wrapped up in what he thinks is right that he has no conception of other people religion or the tenants/customs/practices of that religion. Or in this case the unacceptable position of the Christian Rabbi.
That sounds about right. I can only think he did this out of ignorance.. or it appealed to his specific Christian values.
I think it is a little of both, Pence is an Evangelical Christian so, his beliefs say that anyone who isn't a Christian, his type of Christian is bound for hell and, is practicing the wrong religion.
If that is true, that would be pretty disgusting especially given the timing.
Pence probably doesn't spend much time with real Jews of any variety, just Messianic Jews. Evangelicals love them.
Or if the event was arranged by others and he was told a rabbi would address the audience he may well have just assumed it would have been an actual rabbi and not a fake one.
Buzz...... Part of the problem here is that too many people give this WH a pass on their amateur administrative and management of events and situations.
Why didn't these things happen during past Administrations? Because past Administrations would have double checked to make sure there weren't any hiccups.
This WH and Administration cannot get good or senior civil servants to work for them. Good people have distanced themselves and do not want any affiliation with this Administration and for good reasons.
It's a dog and pony show.
It is the way the Evangelical's believe, I spent my formative teen years in such a church and, the prevailing thought in the church was, "Whoever doesn't belong to OUR church and, espouse what WE believe can't be going to heaven" but, most of the churches in the area were like that and, I finally had enough of that and, went my own way. This "Rabbi" probably believes in the Evangelical version of the Bible and, that is why Pence picked him, Pence just doesn't know any better.
I vehemently disagree. I think Pence knows exactly what he was doing.
Also, I keep saying this but it get's glossed over. Where are the professionals that are organizing these events? Where are the competent people that should be checking and double checking these things to ensure the WH is putting it's best foot forward?
They aren't there because good people (morally and skill-wise) don't want anything to do with this Administration.
Well, this is where we can agree.
That kind of sounds about right. When I was in college there were tons of "Jews for Jesus" that would roam the campus trying to convert people. I found out that their main targets are Jews who have limited knowledge of their faith. They are easy pickings.
Can you imagine the looks on parents' faces when these kids went home and told Mom and Dad about "Jews for Jesus"?
If you were competent or ethical would you be willing to work for Trump?
Heck No!
If he knew it was a vile move. If he didn't know he's way to stupid to be in a leadership position.
Bottom line, Pence is a putz.
It was a putzy move, but maybe just from a lack of dealing with Jews? I am clueless to why else he would do this.
You're too kind, lol.
Can we really believe that those kind of events aren't planned by those who KNOW better.
We're getting far to used to giving Trump and Pence a PASS on their incompetence. What's worse is that in this case, it was painful to an already injured community.
Yeah. Even if Pence didn't know better, there should have been somebody around him who could and would set him straight.
My guess is that is was to appeal to "Trump's Base"-- or at least that group who call themselves "Christians" but who in actuality do not follow the true teachings of Christ.
That is true for sure and that is what I found so shocking about the story. The Jews for Jesus movement has been a thorn in the side of the Jewish community for a long time.
Agreed.
Jared and Ivanka were on their way to comfort the people of Pittsburgh and thus were unavailable.
Who knows, they could be part of the "Jews for Jesus" movement.
Jarad is orthodox, so no.
Well, that explains a lot, Orthodox Jews don't consider any other Jews "real" Jews, kind of like the Trump supporters, if you don't support Trump and, his agenda, you can't be a "real" Republican.
He knew he just didn't give a shit. That's Pence's world
Yes, Jews for Jesus has been a thorn in the side of the Jewish community ever since the first group of those Jews for Jesus formed better known as the twelve apostles.
You don't know the half of it.
Pence knew. The base must be fed.
Do you imagine Trump or Pence caring if they insult brown people or black people or gay people or Muslims or Asians or our foreign friends and allies? No, of course you do not. So then, why in heck should anyone be amazed that Trump and Co would go out of their way to backhandedly insult all Jewish people at this particular juncture in time? After all, Trump had said a consoling words lately rso the Trump administration needed to send a clear signal to their ignorant inbred xenophobic hate filled base that they still stand firmly with them and not with the hoards of others who are coming to replace them. Anyone still believing that Trump and his awful administration of misanthropic racist throwback supports the Jewish people just because he moved our embassy to Jerusalem or that he really supports Israel is plainly out of touch or just lying. Trump's base is made up of people who HATE everyone not them. WAKE UP PEOPLE!
What I don't get is the idea of a Christian Rabbi. How can a person be a Jewish Rabbi and a Christian at the same time? I thought they were two different faiths. Perhaps I am just too dim witted to know how this can be.
My acquaintance who is a Messianic Jew explains it this way - true belief in God requires both studying and following the Torah and accepting Christ as Messiah. That's about as deeply as I understand it.
Raven,
That is the whole lie to this "faith". The very difference between being Jewish or Christian is the belief that Jesus was the Messiah. Once you believe that Jesus was the Messiah then you are a Christain.
7th Day Adventist and Jehovah Witness get this difference and say they are Christians while living their lives the way that Jesus did, meaning that they practice life more or less as Jews. But they don't call themselves Jews.
Even Mormons say that they are closest to Jews (they call other Christians Gentiles), but they don't think that they are Jews.
I understand that not all people of Jewish descent are of the Jewish faith, and some may be Christians. But, for a Jewish Rabbi to call himself a Christian is really very confusing, as they are two different faiths. The Jewish faith as I understand it does not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
While I have attended a few Synagogues many years ago, I did not fully research the faith to be that knowledgeable about it, but, what little I do know makes such an event as a Jewish Rabbi referring to himself as a Christian a bit out in left field in my thinking.
Why would a Rabbi do such a thing? It simply doesn't make since to me.
If the so-called "rabbi" was a messianic Jew he may have been or not have been of Jewish ancestry but his messianic belief negates his being considered a Jew in any way but blood, certainly not by faith. If he was a Christian by ancestry then even a conversion to Judaism does not make him a Jew if he believes in messianic Judaism.
As far as I am concerned, if he is a Jew referring to himself as a Christian then he no longer practises the Jewish faith, and if he is a Christian referring to himself as a Jewish rabbi he is a fraud.
I agree.
Anyway you look at it Buzz, Pence was wrong to bring him in for this prayer, he should have found a real Rabbi to do it.
Perhaps it was the event organizers who did it and Pence thought he was a real rabbi and not a fraud.
Pence and, his "people" should have done some research on this man before they agreed to let him speak, they messed up, the organizers are a part of the Republican Party, they should have been in constant contact with the VP's office and, informing them of who was going to be speaking, it falls on Pence and, his team to vet the speakers as well.
Really shouldn't be surprised, every religion ever has evolved, changed, branched, changed beliefs, priorities, etc over time. Apparently Judaism is not an exception
A "rabbi" in the Jewish tradition is a religious leader and a teacher. A messianic Jew can call himself a rabbi in the tradition of teacher. The problem is that messianic rabbis are teaching what every Jew would consider false doctrine. It is clear in the Torah that the messianic view that Jesus was the messiah does not match Jewish tradition. For Jews, when the "Mosheach" or Messiah does come, all wars will end, and all the people of the world will live in harmony and peace. Christians and messianic Jews have tried to explain that God changed his/her mind and sent Jesus as a first coming of the messiah and that he will return after the events they prophesize in the book of Revelations. Christian tradition indicates that they can ignore the Penteuch {old testament} because Jesus' existence represent a new covenant with God. Messianic Judaism therefore becomes an oxymoron and a theological impossibility.
The other part of this is that most {from my experience} messianic rabbis are in fact, Christian preachers who are using that terminology in order to get Jews to accept Christ as the messiah. This is a central tenet of Evangelical Christianity. It makes the concept of 'Jews for Jesus' a scam at best, and a cruel hoax at worst. You cannot use the Penteuch to fit your "Jewish" faith. The supposed holy words of the Torah are read as fact by many observant Jews. It means laws such as Kashrut {kosher}, tikun olam {charity}, others can't be changed and anyone who claims it can is preaching false doctrine.
A friend who is a Pastor has been wise enough to have said that if Jesus ever did return, he would identify himself as a Jew. That was the belief system he preached as a traveling rabbi.
It is important, however, to recognize that we developed our religions to justify our actions. I always believed that if there is a God, it doesn't make a difference how we follow His/her central tenet {Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.} Everything else is commentary.
Jesus was the first Christian Rabbi.
E.A Think Now if he was " First " that would mean?
If the "historical" record is accurate, Jesus considered himself a Jewish rabbi. Christianity is actually a creation of Paul, and would more realistically called Paulism.
Jesus came along after the Jewish faith was established. Jesus was more like the first Christian Jew.
Tell that to your local Jewish Rabbi. I'm sure he will have a true answer for you.
Lol I'm sure he will have an answer that's true to him. No matter there's no rabbi's within hours of where I am so there's no one local to tell, we do have a local Imam is that close enough?
Yepper....that's do. (grin)
To be a Christian you have to accept Jesus (Oeace be Upon Him) as your saviour. So if Jesus (PBUH) was a true Christian-- he'd have to accept himself as his own Savior!
Which is inconsistent with He (PBUH) was like. He (PBUH) did not have such an enormous ego-- on the contrary!
That is very true.
Nonsense. If you are a faithful Jew then looking for the coming of the Messiah is part of your faith. Messianic Jews are those who agree that Jesus is the promised Moshiach. ALL of the earliest believers were Jews who believed Him to be the Messiah.
Those who do so now merely follow in that tradition.
And the prophet Zecharyah foretold that one day all of Israel will know He is Moshiach
And I will pour upon the Bais Dovid, and upon the inhabitants of Yerushalayim, the Ruach (Spirit) of Chen (grace) and of Tachanunim (supplications for favor); and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced [ dakar, "pierce through" cf. Yeshayah 53:5 ; Targum HaShivim Tehillim 22:17 ], and they shall mourn for Him (Moshiach) as one mourneth for his yachid (only son), and shall grieve in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his bechor (firstborn). Zecharyah 12:9
LFOD,
You can not tell me that something that is not part of your community is an insult. Messianic Rabbis are preaching about Jesus. Jesus is not part of the Jewish tradition. In fact, it is the single dividing point of the two faiths. Jews may regard Jesus as a Rabbi (teacher), but not the Messiah. Observant Jews are waiting for the ONLY coming of the Messiah ( Moshiach) .
What you quote is not what Jews refer to when talking about the Messiah.
When Jews talk about the Messiah, they refer to this:
Please note that Jews do not use Zechariah but rather Micah and Isaiah for the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah. That is the tradition of observant Jews.
Ask him what will happen to Jews that evangelicals can't convert to christianity, or how many Jews besides Jesus will be in evangelical heaven.
I think I know the answer.
"Not so fast, Louie" (Casablanca). It's possible that Pence had nothing to do with it, and that the arrangement may have been made by the ones who organized the event and he was unaware of the circumstances. Does anyone have an UNBIASED report about it - one that does not praise Pence or demonize him?
Jews for Jesus is another one of those religious things that confuses me
Think of them as Southern Baptists wearing yarmulkes. They're just apocalyptic Christians pretending to be Jews. Evangelicals get a hard on when they're around.
That works, thanks!
that's scary
That's horrifically scary!
I swear I totally did NOT know this before I made my comment:
.
Note that a few years later the president of the SBC famously said that " God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew ."
I think you've found your super power
A woman I went to college with is now a Messianic Jew. We reconnected on Facebook a few years ago, but I had to unfollow her when she started talking about her plans to arrange betrothals for her kids, who were toddlers at the time.
Arranged marriages for toddlers. Awesome.
Oy vey!
Me too. Wasn't Jesus in reality born Jewish?
I've just been told on another news website that Pence told a reporter that he had nothing to do with it, that it was arranged by those who put together the event. Does anyone have a report that isn't extreme left or right wing so maybe we can get to the truth. It was wrong to do no matter WHO arranged for it, but Pence may be innocent of it.
Well, if that person is on Pence's staff, he or she should be fired with extreme prejudice
According to a CNN article, the person who appointed the fraudulent rabbi was the candidate herself, Ms. Epstein, who explained that she did it for the purpose of furthering inclusiveness and togetherness, as he combined both religions into one. Bullshit. She never took into consideration that it was a grievous insult to the families of the victims and a affront to all the "real" Jews in America. Stupid woman.
Good detective work, Buzz. But I have to agree with Trout. Fired with extreme prejudice.
And an idiot to boot....
I also agree with Trout, extreme prejudice isn't sufficiently strong....
Whomever set this event up for Pence and the WH should be fired. It is their job to ensure that all aspects are considered.
Let's be clear, Pence knew exactly who this man was. If he didn't than he is not the religious person he claims to be.
He was hoping to have his cake and eat it too. Placate the Jew while giving a wink and a nod to his base that Christianity is King.
This was no faux pas and we need to stop pretending these slip ups are by accident. The government is NOT incompetent as is evident by how past Administrations handled these type of situations but those that work for this Administration are clearly not qualified for the roles they hold.
I agree. They know exactly what they are doing.
And when called on it, just lie or brush it off.
I'm guessing that the key to this odd presentation is to be found in Pence's obligation , as an evangelical, to SPREAD the word of the Christian faith.
These holy rollers generally feel the right and duty to inflict themselves on anyone and everyone, at certain times. I believe it is also true that if you don't sufficiently proselytize "The Good News" you are considered to be unfaithful to Jesus.
Pence foisted a Jew For Jesus on these people because he wants to go to heaven.
That has no bearing on Pence going to heaven. No one is saved by doing good deeds
Pence has done no good deeds anyway. If there is a heaven, that's not where prick Pence is going.
Fortunately it’s not up to you and no amount of good deeds qualifies a person for heaven
pence has certainly met was Jesus and the Apostles set as the standards for salvation
Pence walks in The Shadow. Lucifer guides him. One is not 'saved' when they dwell in The Shadow.
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Faith without works is dead faith
Actually, that is where he is going. That's where they keep the most boring, sterile, wimpy humans that ever existed. Hell is where the action is. I'll save you a seat.
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That is the big sticking point between Christianity and the no good low down cherry pickin small c christian fundies who insist that good deeds or helping our fellow men and women count for not one thing and that only paying your dues to them and their bastardized interpretations of scripture can get one into their very exclusive Heaven. Something to do with some out an context throwaway line Jesus said about, "Only through me". It is the damn fundies Get Out of He'll Free Card...
Do you have a link to back that up?
or a link rejecting it..... Either will work...
As usual you are ill informed. It was. Jewish woman running for Congress who invited the Rabbi
This is the woman you are defending. She actually states, how dare anyone attack them. Then she uses religion to say that anything negative said about them is intolerance.
They did not give the true Jewish community a voice, intolerance in itself, then use religion as a way to justify what they have done. She is saying, how dare people criticize this. Typical trumpian tactic.
If you go to your link lfod the second article is quite interesting. Seems that the Christian Rabbi was disowned and defrocked by his own around 15 years ago.
I didn't "defend" her. I pointed out the FACT that she, not Pence invited Rabbi Jacobs.
Couple of lies there.
1. Neither Messianic or Protestant Rabbis or Ministers are "defrocked". that is a Catholic term
2. Rabbi Jacobs resigned from the UMJC years ago because they didn't advocate Evangelism as strongly as he felt they should. ONLY 80 Messianic Congregations belong to the UMJC
"After being involved with the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) for a number of years (for a time I served as the head of the Evangelism Committee), and after completing their Yeshiva program, I was given smicha (ordination) by the UMJC at the Dallas conference in 1992. Several years later our synagogue withdrew its membership from the UMJC when it became clear to me that Jewish Evangelism was not a priority to the UMJC. I believed then, and still believe now, that any organization, congregation or individual that is not committed to evangelism is not healthy, and will eventually head in an unhealthy direction.
Other Problems Surface: Timeline Of Events
In the summer of 2,000, after speaking personally with Mark Kinzer, who was the head of the UMJC’s seminary program, it was clear to me that Mark had embraced serious errors, like the Documentary Hypothesis (see my “Refutation of the Documentary Hypothesis” below). When asked about two Isaiahs, Mark admitted to me that there were at least two Isaiahs, and probably three, four or five! Mark also let me know that Genesis 1-11 may not be real history, based on real historical events, with real historical people. Mark also embraced the “Unconscious Christian” or “Unrecognized Mediation of Christ” doctrine (see my article, “ Sure As Hell ” which refutes this false teaching. It can be found at Also, Dr. Louis Goldberg, of blessed memory, wrote a thorough refutation of a very closely related error, the Two-Covenant Heresy). Mark also teaches that the Roman Catholic Church is an acceptable Christian Church, and its Gospel is an authentic Gospel message (see “Comments on Roman Catholicism” below).
A week after discovering this information, I contacted Russ Resnick, the General Secretary of the UMJC, and let him know what I had found out. I followed up that phone call with a summary of our conversation. Russ Resnick’s initial response was to defend Mark’s doctrine as being acceptable. That same day I emailed Mark with my concerns. Mark and I exchanged several emails about these issues. Mark’s responses did not alleviate my concerns.
The matter was submitted to a UMJC committee that met at the national conference in Ohio during the summer of 2,000. As I recall, the committee was composed of three people: Dan Juster, Elliot Klayman, and one other person. I was informed that the committee met and decided by a 2 to 1 vote that Mark’s doctrines were acceptable to the UMJC. Dan Juster and the other man made a terrible mistake in this decision. They tolerated serious error. They could have prevented Mark’s errors from spreading further. They were negligent as gatekeepers .
I disagreed with that committee’s decision, and in February of 2001 I contacted the MJAA, which our congregation was then a part of, to let them know about my concerns. I was told that at a joint meeting of UMJC and MJAA leaders, the situation with Mark would be discussed. That meeting took place, and I was informed that the situation was discussed, and that other than keeping an eye on the situation, no further action was pending. I have further talked to the MJAA, and they are more concerned than ever that Mark is not teaching sound doctrine.
In November 2002 I warned my synagogue as part of a sermon, which was later also sent out by email, that Mark was denying that Jewish people needed to consciously place their faith in Messiah in order to be saved. On February 27, 2003, Russ Resnick emailed me letting me know that he was initiating a joint UMJC/MJAA resolution process against me. I met with Elliot Klayman, who represented the UMJC, and with Michael Wolf, who represented the MJAA, on May 18, 2003. They both were sympathetic to my concerns about Mark’s doctrine, and we decided that a further meeting with Mark would be attempted in the near future, but that meeting would wait until after the UMJC conference took place in Israel. I agreed that I would not publically speak out further until our meeting took place. I also said that I would only wait for a limited time, so that the matter could be dealt with promptly.
That meeting with Elliot, Michael, Mark and I never took place because the situation changed as a result of the UMJC’s Israel conference. In connection to that conference, Rich Nichol was quoted by the Jerusalem Post saying that the UMJC does not believe that Jewish people who don’t believe in Jesus are going to Hell. That made this entire situation a public matter. The situation further changed when I found out that Mark Kinzer and Tony Eaton were in print advocating some form of Dual-Covenant and Unconscious Christian heresies. Their heretical quotes can be found below. The situation further changed when quotes from various UMJC leaders were printed in the Jews for Jesus’ Havurah article in the Fall of 2003. That made this situation a public matter.
I continued speaking out about this public situation. Russ Resnick initiated charges against me for libel and divisiveness and brought those charges to the UMJC’s Judicial Committee. After looking into the matter, they found me innocent of 8 of the 9 charges that Russ charged me with. The one charge they found me guilty of, and which in their opinion was slanderous, was my following statement to my fellow UMJC rabbis: “I am writing to those who are part of the Messianic Jewish Movement, and affiliated with a UMJC congregation, to let you know what has been happening between me and some of the leadership of the UMJC. I write to you believing that, because these issues concern everyone, they should not remain private, and you should know the facts. Recently I’ve made some critical remarks regarding some of the theological drift of some leaders in the UMJC. For that, I’ve been threatened by Russ Resnick with the revocation of my ordination with the UMJC. It seems to me that Russ is biased, and is using his position as General Secretary to try and punish dissent. ”
Based on this last sentence (the sentence in italics) the Judicial Committed concluded that I was guilty of libel charge against Russ on this one charge. They also stated that this did not rise to the serious level needed to take away my ordination . However, Resnick ignored the recommendation of the Judicial Committee, and went to the Credentials Committee, who without contacting me, took away my UMJC ordination. At the following delegates meeting, the delegates allowed this decision to be approved.
Additional Problems
Conversion of Gentiles: Although it’s against the teaching of the New Testament, leaders of congregations that are part of the UMJC are converting Gentiles into Jews; and it is tolerated by the UMJC. See my article, Conversion?
Exclusion of Gentiles: Although it’s against the teaching of the New Testament, leaders of congregations that are part of the UMJC are excluding Gentile Christians from participating in their congregations."
First off not being a ''pastor'' or familiar with the Catholic church or any of the other Christian branches, defrocked isn't a lie but simply the wrong word to be used.
The second part seems to be in contradiction of what the USMJ states. He's defending himself it seems. Question has he been allow back in the USMJ or that organization.
Defrocked is not just a Catholic term. It can be used for any Christian minister
Eyes it is Catholic. I know of no Protestant denomination or organization except perhaps Anglicans who use that term and absolutely no Messianic group uses it either
Defrock comes from frock, an old word for "dress." Priests, nuns, monks, and other church officials wear a frock to symbolize their job. If they leave the church, they are said to be defrocked: their gown is taken away.
Methodist ministers don't wear "frocks"? Presbyterians? Lutherans?
And you contradicted yourself in your second sentence.
You are not the end all and be all of knowledge when it comes to the Catholic Church. I won't take lessons from someone who hates it with every fiber of his being.
We're done.
A quick search shows that they are a number of religions that ''defrock''....
Defrocked is not just a Catholic term. It can be used for any Christian minister.
Well, I suppose its the concept that's the important thing-- not the choice of the actual word.
And IIRC, topless dancers do not use the word "defrocking" when they talk about what they do when they go on stage.
(Can anyone clarify that...???)
This was also reported by CNN. It was the candidate, Ms. Epstein, who invited the Rabbi, not Pence. She explained that she did it because America needed inclusivity and togetherness and he epitomized that by being both Jewish and Christian. Her having done so not only grievously insulted the families of the Pittsburgh victims, but offended the whole American Jewish community, both Democrats and Republicans.
What is all the bullshit about having used the word "defrocked"? As Kavika pointed out, perhaps the wrong word was used, and anyone with a brain would know that what was meant is that he was "REMOVED" from the roles of acceptable MINISTERS of the fraud known as Jews for Jesus. IMO he is NOT a Rabbi, even if he were a graduate of a Yeshiva - because a Rabbi is a term used ONLY for those who preach the Jewish faith.
As I see it, the word "defrocked" could even apply to terminating the virginity of a girl.
and it means "Teacher" not priest....
You're right, it is the Cantor who prays, and I should know since my Great Grandfather was a Cantor and my son is the Senior Rabbi of a 1000 family membership congregation at a Temple in the USA (and he is NOT a Messianic Rabbi).
Wrong- He is still an ordained minister, just not affiliated with one organization that is NOT Jews for Jesus
Hi Larry! How can that be true give that she's not Orthodox and you said the other day that the only "real" Jews are the Orthodox? Sounds like your standards are both flexible and conveniently hypocritical.
By the way, great link......the next story at the link you cited notes that Jared Kushner's grandparents were refugees helped by HIAS, but after the terrorist attack Kushner refuses to even talk to HIAS.
Personally I don't give a shit if he's ordained by one ministry or another, it's just that if he is minister or a teacher or a priest or whatever, if he holds himself out to be of the Jewish faith and believes in messianic Judaism his "Jewish" faith is fraudulent.
That demonstrates an ignorance of the history of Judaism, whether you claim Judaism or not. Jews have been waiting for Moshiach for over 3000 years.
The difference is that some Jews believe that Jesus is that promised Moshiach. He is NOT a minister or priest. He is an ordained Rabbi as are all spiritual leaders of Messianic Synagogues. I have attended worship at Messianic Synagogues and they are very much conducted according to Jewish traditions with the exception that they believe Jesus to be Moshiach. Services are in Hebrew
I was honored by an Orthodox Synagogue in the Los Angeles area over 40 years ago as ger toshav (a righteous gentile). I have been invited by the Israeli Government on multiple occasions as a friend of Israel and Judaism.
Well, I suppose defrocking a girl is one heck-of-a-lot better than defenestrating her!
(Yes that's a real word-- if anyone knows the meaning, (I certainly don't) don't tell! We certainly wouldn't want anyone to get smarter here!!!)
I
DON'T
CARE
if 'defrocked" is the right term. Jewish leaders said he WASN'T a Rabbi for some years. THAT's what's important.
E.A Poor Poor nightwalker Language IS important, go to ANY Court and YOU will find that out!!!!
So what is important?
Having a Jew for Jesus for a Jewish memorial prayer?
Yes language is important. So is knowing how people can twist it to fit their narrative.
Defending the indefensible is not a great look.
E.A Yes like " Gender " what can be more important that knowing THAT :-)
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Thankfully they haven't gotten to the point of chucking people out windows yet...
But metaphorically speaking.......
Chucking out is applicable here...
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
I try to stay away from courts, so I guess it matters less to me than to you. Labels are a nice sidetrack and makes people sound semi-intelligent while they do so, but it's still a sidetrack.
You know, there's a psychological condition (label) for people who obsess over labels, I'm sure that pleases you and LFOD. More labels!
This guy WAS a Rabbi, and was dismissed, defrocked, disbarred, discharged (dishonorable), disfranchised, striped of all authority to the tune of Danny Dever, decommissioned, dumped and fired by other Rabbi. Try to find a proper label out of that, will you?
Even if he calls himself a Rabbi for "Jews for Christ" (isn't that a Christian?) he isn't a Jewish Rabbi, nor was he in good standing with them so it's a lot like just bringing a actor in to fill the spot. Didn't go over good, so what's the label for that?
Brooklyn Heights residents wake up to swastikas
Looks like a rough neighborhood the neighbor has bars on his windows.
And that's your excuse for the racist swastikas?
Gotta disagree with ya, the neighborhood looks pretty gentrified to me clean well maintained brickwork, fresh paint, decorative outdoor lighting, potted plants at street level, no litter (excluding the leaves). I also don't see the bars you refer too, the window on the right is well maintained with no bars, the fence on the right appears to be topped with decorative wooden latticework and the door on the left appears to be nicely done with some decorative wrought iron (if the wrought iron is considered to be bars then my apologies)
Dean,
I don't know if you are trying have a poke, but that is Brooklyn Heights. You can't buy a house for less than 5M... that is just an upper deck to the house.
But nice try.
I can see how a quick look might lead someone to think there are bars-- or at least the sort you'd see in bad neighbourhoods. But I agree with you (and what Perrie mentioned). There are three bldgs:
Since the door on the left is not a solid wood or metal door (Its a mainly glass)-- its not surprising there is iron work on part of it to protect the entrance to the bldg. But its nicely done-- front doors in houses in bad neighbourhoods that have iron bars, etc that are not so nice looking. In fact, this is the type of front door you see in houses in the best neighbourhoods.
As you mentioned, the building on the right's window does not have bars.
The building in the middle is interesting. There are similar buildings in upscale neighbourhoods around the city. Sometimes this sort of preserved old building is a residence, but from the looks of the doors this one probably isn't used as a living space. If I'm right, this building is old and well preserved-- these sort of buildings were originally stables! Most of them are now used as garages-- and when you see a house with its own private garage in or fairly near the center of New York City, that's usually an indication that is a rather upscale neighbourhood.
Whoever drew them is pretty dumb as well since at least half of them are not swastikas
Well, technically, they are all swastikas, but Hitler ruined the original Sanskrit meanings of good luck and fertility.
Since the Nazis appropriated the "right handed " symbol,
the opposite handed symbol now represents divinity and spirituality in Indian religions and East Asian religions.
So, you are correct that whoever drew them is ignorant, for multiple reasons.
Thank you, it's always a good day when you learn something new
No, they are swastikas of sorts. But not the certified real Nazi logo.
To add to that, Native Americans had used the swastikas for centuries (mostly the SW tribes) and it was both left and right facing. In fact in some towns in the SW you can still see them on buildings built before 1940...If you have a chance to see Navajo rugs and blankets that were woven before the war you can see many swastikas in the designs.
The 45th Infantry Division had the swastika as their symbol and it was changed to the Native American Thunderbird at the start of the war.
Well, no one has ever accused an anti-Semite or Nazi sympathizer of being smart, and those swastikas were obviously drawn by the dumbest among them by even their impossibly low standards.
Indeed, those designs were part of Native American artwork loonnnggg before the Nazis ever thought of using it. And their use of it in what it was intended to stand for is a huge insult to Native Americans.
BTW, here's a bit of "trivia"-- Hitler also adopted something else from the area-- the word "Aryan" (he misused it to mean the "racially pure master-race", "Whites"). But if anyone googles the word-- the original meaning may come as a surprise!
Lol, I knew that but was trying not to expand the topic...
On the subject of changes made because of WW2, Ontario, Canada, has cities named London, Paris, and before the war there was one named "Berlin", but because of the war the city's name was changed to "Kitchener" after an English lord.
China also used the ancient symbol but reversed from the Nazi style. This picture was taken at the park in Luoyang where the annual Peony Festival is held.
Lol Buzz did you ever pass through the village of Goebbels down near Paris, name always struck me as odd but they never changed it.
They look like they were drawn by a drunken 4 year old.
Goebbels? - a village in Ontario? I never heard of it before.
Well, I can be a mischievous sort-- sometimes I deliberately derail a discussion-- just to see what I can get away with. Its called being an ENTP . (But don't tell Perrie or the mods that I am doing that!
P.S. Often people know about the Swastika, but very few know about the original meaning of "Aryan"-- you are unusually well informed!
Herer's more esoterica-- yoga poses have sanskrit names-- ending in "asana". There's one called "Swastikasana" because supposedly the person's body resembles a Swastika:
(There are several different hand positions-- this is one)
I used to have a room-mate who practiced Falun-Gong (at the Yoga Ashram in rural Virginia where I lived for a while). Every morning at about 5 AM he would sit in the middle of the floor in Swastikasana IIRC and do some practices-- also did some standing.
Here is the falun Gong (also called Falun Dafa) emblem:
They are a very peaceful, tolerant and spiritually evolved religion-- but they have been brutally persecuted by China's Communist government.
Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, and even in a few places, Jews all practise their religion in China. There must be a reason why the government does not permit the practise of the Falun Gong religion.
Not surprising, like I said it was just a village. The only reason I know it is because we passed through it every time we visited Gramma in Paris when I lived in London. Anyway just one of those weird things, no biggie.
The ideal of America is changing, isn't it? Anyone want to venture a guess as to why?
I've been interested in that question for a long time.
Ironically, it appears that the main cause may be the widespread use of.... The Internet!
Good point. Or maybe this. The Internet being a tool such as a plow? Except louder, demanding, dishonest, deceitful, illicitly funded or vengeful forces only see it as a sword?
I have said before and I say again, I wish the computer and internet had never been invented. Life was so much more pleasant back in those days.
Amen brother, amen.
Praise Jewsus.
Why be angry?
Yeah, yeah, I get the reason, but so what? It was meant for good. Just take it that way. Do you really imagine Pence or the Rabbi or anyone was genuinely trying to offend anyone?
I don't think that it was meant for good. I think it was meant to appear good, while discounting the faith of the victims. If they were going to have prayer led by a rabbi to appear to sympathize with the Jewish community, it should have been an actual rabbi, not one not recognized as an actual rabbi by actual Jews.
Barring that, they should have just been honest and had a Christian pastor, and actually admitted said pastor was Christian, and not Jewish.
Why? Why would anyone be trying to do that in that moment? After everything that has come before and been said about the shooting and the community and coming together, why at that moment would they be trying to insult the jewish community?
To pander to one group (Christians) while attempting to appear empathetic to another (Jews). They tried to straddle the fence when they shouldn't have, and it made them look insincere.
Surely, they could have found a Jewish rabbi? There are an abundance of such, I believe. Instead, they chose a Christian who embraces the trappings of Judaism, but not the doctrine.
At best, it was ignorance and incompetence. At worst, it was a dishonest attempt at showing empathy with the Jewish community. "Look! We've got a rabbi in the house!" (But he's really one of our guys.)
IDKY, Tacos. I know that isn't a Rabbi. I know that Jews have been fighting the "Jews for Jesus" movement for a very long time and that this is a very well known fact. So if you can explain it to me, I'm all ears.
Why?
Isn't it obvious?
Its because it would appeal to Trump's Base! (Or at least a certain part of it).
Former KKK leader David Duke: 'We won it for Donald Trump
A former Ku Klux Klan leader – or 'grand wizard' – has suggested fascists had helped Donald Trump win the US presidential election.
David Duke, who once led the neo-Nazi, white-supermacist organisation, tweeted the claim on election night.
“This is one of the most exciting nights of my life,” Mr Duke wrote.
“Make no mistake about it, our people have played a huge role in electing Trump!”
Its all about the base-- Trump's Base!
And that's exactly why Pence did what he did . . .
Here's a bizarre picture David Duke posted on Twitter:
@ DrDavidDuke
I have no interest in explaining it and I wasn't there, so I'm not qualified to explain it. I just don't see the logic in assuming that it was done with evil intent.
I know you guys have been led to believe that the KKK or Neo-nazis are Trump's base, but realistically, those people number in a handful of thousands. 60-something million people voted for Trump and 99% of them are just folks who don't have any particular interest in pissing off Jews when they're grieving.
If a full one percent of all Trump voters are KKK members, by your own honest estimates, then that equals about 600,000 or about ten times the number of gop votes which ended up giving Trump his electoral college margin. So, by your own estimation, it was the KKK in the gop that put The King of Vulgaria into The White House. Thanks for clearing that all up for everyone. Nice to know the gop owns up to it, finally...
White supremacists and antisemites only form part of Trump's base since there's a wide variety of deplorable people who support him including misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes and xenophobes.
Not everyone who supports Trump is a Nazi or a white supremacist, but every Nazi and white supremacist supports Trump.
Conservative Christians are Trump's base, and they are frequently unaccepting of other religions, including Judaism.
OK. Every Communist supports the Democrats. Communists have killed over an estimated 100 million people both directly and indirectly (about half murder, half famine) in the last 100 years - far more than any other ideology or government type. Is that supposed to say something about Democratic leaders in the United States?
What do you mean by "unaccepting?" Every president and nearly every congressman, governor or state legislator in the history of this country has been Christian to some degree. In spite of this apparently intolerant setting, Jews are free to worship as they will. They are not arrested or killed for being Jews. Synagogues are built everywhere. With the possible exception of Israel (population figures for the US are uncertain), the United States is home to far more Jews than any other place on Earth.
Even this latest atrocity, which killed (only) 11 people is the biggest and worst attack on Jews in the history of this country, and was committed by a lone maniac. In the scope of our full history and compared with other violence, that's not so bad. And he will likely be prosecuted by a bunch of Christians pursuant to laws drafted and approved by Christians.
Meanwhile, here we are debating in a story that is defined by Christians trying to show solidarity with Jews and apparently, some Jews do not "accept" that.
For example, deciding that they're right and Jews are wrong about the Messiah. Kind of like Jews for Jesus.
Accusing Jews of killing Jesus - they were pretty ticked about the Jews asking for Barabbas rather than Jesus to be pardoned.
Deciding that Catholics are going to Hell for the idolatry of praying to saints.
That seems pretty unaccepting to me.
This wasn't Christians trying to show solidarity. They mimicked showing solidarity. And they got called out on it.
Ask a real rabbi to pray. Not a fake one. If you ask a fake one, you'll get called out as fake.
Odd that you claim you don't know what they were thinking, but you're sure they were trying to show solidarity, even though the Jewish folks who participate on this site are telling you why their solidarity appears insincere.
I was making a very conservative rough estimate. If I weren't trying to be so fair, I would have been more likely to guess 99.9%. The Southern Poverty Law Center estimates no more than 8,000 KKK members nationwide. For white supremacists, they only count groups. Based on what I saw there, the number is likely far less than 600K, but nobody seems to know for sure.
It is highly unlikely that a significant percentage of them voted at all. Voting rates nationwide, even in a presidential election are not very impressive. In 2016, it was about 60%.
Meanwhile, the percentage of people - particularly young people - who support Communism is far higher than those who support white supremacy, in spite of the fact that Communism has killed over 100 million people in the last 100 years. And they all vote Democrat.
How is that different than people saying Jews who believe in Jesus can't be Jews? Shouldn't people be free to disagree and self-identify how they please?
People who think this is an issue don't understand scripture, in my opinion. This kind of thinking was particularly common before movable type made possible the wide distribution of Bibles and the Reformation broke apart much of the corruption of the Church.
I disagree with the cult of saints, too. I'm not going to predict who is going to Hell, though. That amounts to a disagreement. Am I not allowed to disagree? It's not like I shun Catholics or anything.
He calls himself a rabbi, but you call him "fake." Aren't you the one who is unaccepting?
It's not odd. It's how I roll. I try to assume the best in people, not the worst. I take people at their word until they give me a reason to do otherwise.
Are they? The only reason I see anybody offering is that because they disagree with some religious beliefs of this rabbi, he must have had evil intent. There's no logic to that connection.
He's not a rabbi. He's a preacher
Excuse me, but I will take the word of the Jewish members of NT on what is a rabbi or is not a rabbi than from a self-professed Christian. I don't claim to know much about the Jewish faith, but I'm fairly certain that Perrie and Buzz know a helluva lot more about it than either you or I.
Here is why explained by a Rabbi:
Rabbi Harry Pell Why Mike Pence's prayer with 'Christian' Rabbi Loren Jacobs was so insulting to Jews
In the summer of 2003, I was a chaplain candidate in the U.S. Navy, training to serve the religious needs of the Navy’s fighting men and women. There were about 40 of us in my Chaplains School class, mostly Protestant ministers, a few Catholic priests, myself and a fellow rabbinical student and Jesus. Jesus was a good guy, with a terrific sense of humor and an ever-positive outlook; he was also the first messianic Jew I had ever met.
I had heard about Jews for Jesus growing up but meeting and living with Jesus was a new experience. While I grew to like him personally and respected his right to believe what he believed, his faith was clearly not a branch of my own. And that was troubling, because to all the world, he seemed to be a Jewish chaplain in training.
The situation came to a head when we received our first set of uniforms and pinned on our “devices” — the Navy’s word for the insignia that communicate one’s rank and role in the military. Christian chaplains wear a cross on their collar, Muslim chaplains wear a crescent, and Jewish chaplains wear the tablets of the law surmounted by a Jewish star . Jesus pinned on the tablets of the law with the Jewish star.
Fortunately, the senior chaplain of our class, a stoic and war-hardened Catholic priest, approached Jesus and told him that he needed to wear the cross. All rabbis in the U.S. military are endorsed by the Jewish Welfare Board but Jesus had been endorsed by the Coalition of Spirit Filled Churches . He was welcome to self-identify as a messianic Jew, but he was endorsed as a Christian chaplain, and would wear the cross.
This should have come as no surprise to Jesus, just as it should not have been a surprise to Vice President Mike Pence that inviting a messianic “rabbi” to speak words of comfort to the Jewish community in the wake of the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre would be seen as utterly offensive.
Jews for Jesus was founded in 1973 at the urging of the Southern Baptist Convention as a missionary organization with a very specific purpose: to evangelize to Jews and recruit them to Christianity. Jews for Jesus paved the way for a variety of groups that today identify as messianic Jews, and resist the accusation that they exist to “lure Jews away from Judaism.” Instead, messianic Jews see themselves as offering Jews the opportunity to become “completed” Jews by accepting Jesus, without leaving Judaism.
The problem is that this is theologically impossible. The belief that Jesus was the messiah is the defining core belief of Christianity, and completely outside the realm of Judaism , all of whose mainstream branches believe that the Mashiach has not yet come.
To be clear, a messianic Jew has as much right to her or his beliefs as I have to mine. It is admittedly unsettling to many Jews that the observances of messianic Jews look so, well, Jewish, including Jewish ritual items and Hebrew prominently, while being so based in Christian theology. But unsettling is not in and of itself offensive. It is also worth stating that this discomfort with messianic Judaism is not a discomfort with Christianity. Christianity, which looks like Christianity, is simply a different religion from Judaism and to be respected as a fellow faith tradition. Where messianic Judaism becomes much more troubling is when it seems to pass itself off as authentic Judaism, and especially when this resemblance is used to evangelize to Jews and try to pull them away from Judaism .
In inviting Rabbi Loren Jacobs to the stage to address the crowd at his Michigan rally — and by referring to Jacobs as “a leader in the Jewish community” — Pence erred on many levels. First off, Pence was simply incorrect. Jacobs may (or may not) be a leader in the messianic Jewish community, which most Jews would consider a Christian community, but he is not now and has never been a leader in the Jewish community.
Even more offensive is the fact that Jacobs, like many if not most messianic Jews, believes that Jews who do not accept Jesus are destined for hell. Jews can only be saved by accepting Jesus as their lord and savior, according to Jacobs, and getting them to do so is the central mission of Jews for Jesus. In other words, the “rabbi” Pence asked to share a blessing for unity believes that the only way for Jews to reach heaven is to stop being Jews.
If all that wasn’t offensive enough, the Michigan rally wasn’t a randomly timed event. It took place on Monday, two days after 11 Jews were murdered in their synagogue simply because they were Jewish. Jacobs’ prayer was meant to be a response to this horrific act. But how can a person comfort Jews in the wake of an unspeakable tragedy, when that person’s very theology and practice is designed to undo their Jewishness? Jewish groups on the right and the left are unified in their frustration.
Perhaps the greatest disappointment is that we so desperately need unity at a time like this, and Pence could have helped bring about that healing. My training in the Navy taught me that when religious leaders come together to represent the best of their faith traditions — without seeking to undermine one another’s beliefs — unity is not only possible; it is beautiful. What happened on that stage in Michigan wasn’t a show of unity, and it certainly wasn’t beautiful
Thank-you, Perrie. That gives me more understanding of the whole situation. Do Jews for Jesus believe in baptism? I guess I could go look that up.
I'm just ashamed of Pence and his arrogance in thinking that any ol' rabbi will do in a pinch, if he supposedly just made a mistake (which I doubt...this was all coordinated).
The other thing that greatly disturbs me is if these people believe that all those innocent lives that were lost in the Holocaust are now burning in hell because they never accepted Jesus as the Messiah?
My point was the Left insists on self-determination when it suits them until it doesn't. For example, if this guy decided he wanted to identify as a woman, we'd all be expected to think and refer to him as such, right? But when he wants to call himself a jew or a rabbi, everybody jumps up with their "official" definitions and sets about to judging him.
There's little point in trying to convince me. I don't care about your - or anyone else's - definitions of jew, and I don't require a history lesson. If this guy decided he was a woman, you wouldn't be posting paragraphs about biology. You'd just insist we call him a woman.
I feel like I'm listening to a bunch of "no true scotsman" arguments, but perhaps it shouldn't be surprising. Maybe the biggest criticism Jesus had for Jews was that they were too legalistic. Nevertheless, the Christian Church has been "excommunicating" people for centuries because of disagreements about what they believe, so Christians don't learn too well, either. Do you think that being excommunicated or labeled heretics makes them ineligible to be Christians? In the end, God decides. Not the Church. Not Israel. Not you.
It's just so sad. Someone is trying to be compassionate and all you can do is get pissed off about their identity or what they believe. You don't look at the fact that you both believe in and love God. You don't look at the fact that you both hate the murderer. You don't look at the fact that you both weep for the dead and their families. You'd rather just be angry at this guy.
Your outrage is a choice you made.
Well, that was a lot of whatabutisim Tacos. I have never talked about genderism on this site, so please don't bring up stuff that isn't true or has nothing to do with the subject.
Anyone who is not openminded to learn something, loses in the end.
If you don't want to get that what this man represents to Jews is the conversion of them, well then maybe you are on board with that. I am not. Don't try and convince me that this was an act of kindness. It was quite the opposite. It was about his personal agenda of conversion. I have seen many actual acts of kindness from other Christian denominations since this travesty and none of them tried to sneak on through converting the victims.
As for outrage, like to see how you would feel if someone tried to turn your kid into a Jew. Would greet it with open arms? Could you swear on your kid's life you would? Because it's so easy to be Jewish, right? Just look at this week's acts of hate alone.
That is a pile of whataboutism.
You know why?
The guy who wants to be a woman doesn't hurt anyone other than possibly himself.
The fake Rabbi, on the other hand, has been in the business of selling a product that breaks up families. It is a cult. It isn't real. It causes harm.
E.A WOW !! I say Again WOW!!!
So STDs and HIV and Other Pathogens Hurt no one?
Or is it that one needs to only look at the " Pleasant Surface " and not deep and deeper?
What is it called when one only " sees the Surface "?
More Whataoboutisms EA.
Nowhere are we talking about STD's and I am clueless what you are talking about in reference to surfaces.
Which is what it is. You get an A in phony comparisons, though.
E.A Is it?
" The guy who wants to be a woman doesn't hurt anyone other than possibly himself. "
" Hurt anyone " is in reference to what? so Pathogens are not " hurting "?
E.A Yes No Doubt " when one only sees the Surface " one would be Clueless for sure "
So tell me in FACTS not in " Clueless rhetoric " over the last 60 Years, what has caused more " Hurt " in the US of A in Families AND in the Economy, a " Jews for Christ " or " Sexual Permissiveness?
Facts only Please!
Yes, they do, but they don't call it that. They call it a Mikvah, keeping it intertwined with a strictly Jewish tradition, that has nothing to do with salvation, but metaphorically cleaning one's soul, which needs it a lot, since we are always making mistakes.
They have nothing in common. There is no comparison to draw. It's whataboutism.
EA, having a sex change operation doesn't spread pathogens. In fact, you have to be in good health. So I am not sure what you are talking about. If you are worried about pathogens, get a flu shot.
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So . . . you wouldn't insist that we affirm his gender identity? That's fine. The point was that many would. Heck, I would. For consistency's sake I'm suggesting that kind of tolerance would apply in this case. Hope that helps.
I never said I don't get it or that I disagree. I said it doesn't need to be an issue. I think you should ignore and accept the good wishes as they were offered.
Is that your assessment of what was going on? He was trying to turn somebody's Jewish kid into a Christian? That seems like a pretty extreme conclusion to reach based on what could be observed.
I don't know if I said that exactly, but since you bring it up, I would agree that the United States of America is the easiest place in the world to be a Jew. Even easier than in Israel.
Wave of terror 2015-2018
Yeah, I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
You do realize there are people who say that about Jews, right?
Jews For Jesus prosthelitizes christianity to Jews trying to convert them. Imagine a Christians For Mohammed trying to convert your children to Islam and how that would effect relationships in your family. How would you feel about members of another faith trying to convert your children?
Now imagine a gunman killed a bunch of your church members then a Muslim government official invited a Christians for Mohammed imam, who is dedicated to converting Christians to Islam to your church to comfort your grieving congregation. Pence might as well have invited a radical Muslim to address that synagogue. It would have sent the same insulting degrading message. Can't you understand?
Is that what they are doing? Trying to convert children against their parents' wishes? They're literally advocating families break apart?
I'm pretty confident that if anyone complained about a thing like that, they would be accused of Islamophobia.
Yes, Jews For Jesus is dedicated to converting Jews to Christianity. I explained the situation plainly enough so I cannot imagine why you continue to pretend not to understand. Also, that last comment of yours completely misses the point. The synagogue members are not Christophobic for feeling insulted. Exactly nobody is making that claim which makes what you said ridiculous. If you still don't get it then that is on you. I really tried to edify you so you could understand since you still claimed to be utterly clueless. Beyond this if you still pretend not to get it then there is nothing left except to assume you are just trolling...
You're lucky I didn't report you for that!
I demand a 10 ticket credit from past actions of mods due to my use of this word on thumper seeds.
Indeed. At least the other 'c' word is ok though!
And Democrats are dedicated to converting Republicans. So what?
Aren't they? You've got them forcibly converting children against their parents' will and destroying families. That sounds like a pretty hysterical reaction to a guy who was offering sympathy.
That is a false equivalency. For people of faith, faith holds a family together.
Do you have kids? Do you know what this movement does on college campuses?
And, what's your point? Politics and, religion are two separate things, many people change political party's in their lives, I started out as a Republican during Nixon's time in office and, changed to Independent when Carter was president, I became a Democrat under Reagan but, I've been a Wiccan since I was 18 and, undecided until then. My beliefs in a deity have nothing to do with my politics and, vice versa.
It means that they have a long history of going onto college campuses and trying to sell their fake faith to unwitting Jewish kids and then as part of their indoctrination, they have to forfeit their families if the families object.
It's a 5,000 year old faith that is the root of 2 other faiths, so if they are calling it a cult, they are either stupid or hate Jews.
Both?
Yes. If the family object to their children's brainwashing, they are told to give up their families.
JBB is right. Wow do you even know any Jews? Or is this you just turning this into something political?
Go ahead and flag it. I have a pretty thick skin, LOL.
Could be?
Yep.
College campuses? Heaven forfend! Why they're practically ripping the babies from their mothers' breasts!
Unwitting? Boy, you have a really shitty opinion of the intellect of grown Jews who were smart enough to get into college. They're adults Perrie. We all have to go through the issue of sending our offspring to college where they will be exposed to . . . I shudder to even write it . . . new ideas.
Welcome to the world! Conservative parents all over the country have to send their kids to be indoctrinated by liberal professors, but I bet you're hunky dory with that. Is it clear that I have no sympathy for your plight? Lots of empathy, though. But that's life.
Geez where are all the NT atheists when I want one?
bbbbbwwhhaaat??
Did you miss that this entire seed is political? You took what should have been a simple prayer and made it political. I didn't do that. All I did was come in here and suggest that maybe people could relax a little.
E.A They are Religiously Bound to their DOGMAS!! :-)
Do they disguise themselves as Republicans to do it?
Where has anybody said "forcibly", except for you?
We're here, saying one ought to call a spade a spade, and a Jew a Jew, and a Christian a Christian, rather than dishonestly trying to appeal to both by calling a Christian a Jew.
Well, if it's not forced on them, what are you complaining about? That free people made a free choice?
Well, that's curious to me because most of the atheists I talk to around here tend to call a Jew or a Christian an anti-science, illogical, unreasoning fool.
Some people think so. They call the RINOs. Republicans In Name Only. There, as here, I prefer to think of them as Republicans who disagree on some stuff.
Why are you saying "forcibly", when nobody else has?
Funny how you say "RINOs" are just Republicans who disagree, but think people who prefer fact to myth are insulting you.
Do you not hear it when it comes out of you? Do you not read it after you write it?
If you think religious belief is a myth, then what are you fighting for here? How can it matter how one person embraces a myth versus how another person does it? If you're a true atheist, how can you defend one religious set of beliefs over another? Why would you if you think it's all delusion?
I think I know the answer. Politics. Republicans did it, so it must be offensive.
For the same reason I don't stalk out of the room when prayer is said before a meal.
I don't believe, but I recognize that some do.
I also recognize that, in order to claim to be a member of a group that believes, one must, well, believe. That's kind of a big deal in religions, yes? Belief? Judaism rejects the idea that Jesus was the Messiah. If one accepts Jesus as the Messiah, one is a Christian, not a Jew. If one claims otherwise, one is lying, which is also kind of a big deal for both religions, yes?
Are you now one of Rachel Dolezal's biggest supporters?
First of all Tacos, I have not once spoken to you with disrespect or snark. Please do the same for me.
You obviously have no idea of what is going on in the Jewish community. And no, 18 year olds think they are adults, but they are not. If you are not sure, ask insurance companies that charge you more for your kids car insurance. I sent my kids to school for an education, not an indoctrination.
Assumptions are not a good way to go in a discussion. I am actually NOT OK with indoctrination of personal ideology from professors. What is clear is that you are not interested in a discussion because you have preconceived ideas about me and everything else we have discussed.
I have read more respectful commentary from them, than I have from you.
That's a definition that in this context is created by Jews who don't believe Jesus is the messiah. And that's fine; they're entitled to their opinion. But in the 1st century after Jesus' death, there were distinct groups of Jesus followers: self-identified Jews and gentiles. The apostles and Paul and all those immediately around them were Jews who believed in Jesus. In the cities around Rome and Greece, those people believed in Jesus but weren't Jews.
It caused problems because there was a lot of conflict over whether people should continue with Jewish traditions. Some did and some didn't, but it was a distinction people were bright enough and open-minded enough to comprehend.
Paul basically advised people to do what they were comfortable with and not judge others for their practices (or lack of them) because it was God's grace that was ultimately more important than anything we did as humans. The point is(are) 1) no one thought the Jews who believed in Jesus were masquerading as Christians and 2) it was important not to go about judging how "legitimate" someone was in their faith based on the minutiae of their traditions.
I don't disrespect you. I only disagree with you. Similarly, this pastor you hate only disagrees with you. I find it improbable that he was trying to disrespect anyone.
Why? Because it was Pence that made the faux pas? It was not a simple prayer. It was a prayer that was made by a cult leader. I am sorry that you don't get that. And if you read the commentary from top to bottom, you would have seen that I was unsure of why Pence did it. I didn't blame him though. And I am sorry, it's kind of hard to relax, when I get from someone who has no idea of anything going on in the Jewish community lecturing what they should and should not be upset about. Get to know a a few Jews and then we can talk.
An uniformed choice made by false pretense. And that is not the issue. It was insulting to Jews to have a prayer service by someone who has been hurting the Jewish community.
Nobody's accusing anyone of masquerading as Christians. They're rightly accusing one person of masquerading as a Jew.
Again, if Pence and his staff wanted to have a rabbi lead prayer, they had plenty of rabbis from which to choose. Instead, they chose a Christian. Fine, pick a Christian. But be honest, and don't call him a leader in the Jewish community. I'm sure most Jews would be fine with a Christian offering a prayer for them. But they aren't fine with having someone named "a leader among the Jewish community" who isn't even Jewish.
Perhaps you wouldn't mind if someone were to name an imam a "leader among the Christian community", because after all, you believe in the same god, and Jesus was a prophet of that god, right? If they believe what Jesus says, and they do, because they consider him to be a prophet, they can call themselves followers of Christ, and therefore claim to be Christian leaders, even though they're Muslim?
That is the very difference between the two faiths. It is not an optional item for Jews. The messiah comes only once and he has not come yet. It is not an "opinion" but part of the very basis of their faith.
True. And you know what they called themselves? Jewish Christians. They no longer just identified with the Jewish community at large. Even the Romans considered them a cult till Constantine hundreds of years later.
And if you want to talk about Paul, James was against what Paul was doing which was breaking away from Jewish law to set up a new faith which included allowing in Greeks that were uncircumcised which broke the Jewish covenant with god and Abraham and setting up a whole new faith. You are trying to conflate what happened 2000 years ago with what is happening now, and obviously, have no idea of anything that has to do with Judaism.
Perrie, let me try a glaring example.
With regards to reception by the people in attendance, this prayer under discussion is somewhat tantamount to sending David Duke in blackface to a Black Southern Baptist Church for conducting prayer service.
Again, nobody has brought up hate but you.
Dave,
You hit the nail on the head. Well done!
Hate? No one here has said hate. I dislike what he does. That is not hate.
Agree. Except that one person brought up hate. It wasn't you, of course.
There are words being put in people's mouths (or keyboards).
Thank you Perrie.
I think there is a flu going around affecting some around the board. I hope it runs it course soon.
E.A " No One " seems to have many names~
" a consoling words lately rso the Trump administration needed to send a clear signal to their ignorant inbred xenophobic hate filled base "
" Trump's base is made up of people who HATE everyone not them. WAKE UP PEOPLE! "
" I won't take lessons from someone who hates it "
This one is? " Could you swear on your kid's life you would? Because it's so easy to be Jewish, right? Just look at this week's acts of hate alone. "
"
Both? "
" As for outrage, like to see how you would feel if someone tried to turn your kid into a Jew. Would greet it with open arms? Could you swear on your kid's life you would? Because it's so easy to be Jewish, right? Just look at this week's acts of hate alone. "
E.A So ALL this " False Witnesses " that said no one Said it, what of THEM?
EA,
It is not easy being Jewish. There are hundreds of years of proof and now add recent events.
E.A Is that the POINT that I have Just Debunked?
It is NOT Easy Being Eagle Averro on the Internet, Also, what that have to do with the Misleading Statement about who used " Hate "?
Not much for context or nuance I see.
E.A This following Comment, coming from you know whom, after all the Taunts and shall I say " haltruths " what would YOU characterize it as?
" Not much for context or nuance I see."
EA,
No one was taunting anyone. I answered a question. I don't see how there could be any half-truths. I don't even understand the rest of this.
E.A Yes I have noticed that, and also, as I pointed out to You numerous times in Private messaging, follow the " Context ",
so who was it that said what I Quoted above
and when,
and in reply to what?
And who was the Target?
and Why?
E.A DO a Search in YOUR seed on who said the Quote I posted, how hard is that?
"Not much for context or nuance I see. "
Then go to the Persons concerned " Posting History " and see how that individual treats Others and the one that that QUOTE was directed to!!
Following so Far?
I can Provide a List of " Hate Speech " on this Site if you so want!
Probably not Pence although he's so Christian he squeaks when he walks, I don't think he'd do that on purpose, not yet anyway. After all, to him there is but one true faith anyway. His fault is lack of any kind of research on the "Rabbi." He was having a little trouble finding a Rabbi that would come and do the prayer, and this guy said he was a Rabbi and he would sooooooo close 'nuff.
It would have taken someone about 5 minutes to dig up enough to expose the Rabbi and what he was teaching nowdays.
The Rabbi on the other hand knew exactly what he was doing. I think he did it to P.O. the other Rabbi and get a free plug for HIS religion. He knew how well referring to Christ would go over and was careful to include it.
Well, I'm going to have to disagree with the ideal that this was a statement of support for the jewish community.
Religiously, it was a blunder of mega proportions....
Every religious jew I've come into contact with could care less about what you believe and view you as one of God's children.
You don't have to tell them about your faith cause they will in a very short time find out if you have any at all.
I've never been turned away, they have never tried to convert me, and they welcome me with warmth and an openness I only wish I could find in a church.
And I've always let them know I'm a christian, even such, I've always been invited back.
My christian faith says that one must choose how he is going to believe, so does the hebrew faith.
A person's relationship with their creator is a intimate personal thing. the important thing to any belief is that you believe.
No religion is perfect, they all have their inconsistencies and mysteries. But a true religious jew, has a faith that I seldom find in my christian brethren....
Hence the only way to judge this political farce is exactly as it plays out, a complete lack of any faith in the perpetrator of it....
And that makes it an insult to those that it was proffered to....
E.A A bit confused care to clarify: Does that mean God does not care less?
Or those that suppose to represent God, do not care less?
So care to show me some evidence from Either or Both?
Like what is the Value of Having a Judge that " does not care less " is that the Goal?
Why would someone want a judge? Why would someone want to be judged?
My God is not a judge, the god of christ is not a judge.
If you are really a christian then what is god?
God is salvation, everyone's salvation. YOU are the judge.
So I say, Judge well, cause when your chance to judge yourself arrives, you only get one chance.
E.A Thank YOU!
So you know ZILCH about the Bible, or ANY form of " Re Ligion " whether that be Science or any other grouping, Thank you again . Bye bye!
E.A ie: To whom it may Concern::
Re Ligion, the Root word for the oft miscued " religion " means to Tie To, or to depend on, so any thought process uses that methodology, example, I did X and got Results Y, did I want Y, if Yes then I will repeat x if NOT then I will " judge " to do something Different.
Logic is pure and Simple, but ALWAYS reliant on " Judging "!!!
God Evolution could not EXIST without IT :-)
Say WHAT?? I have never heard a Christian claim this, you don't believe in judgement day? Every Christian I have ever talked to believes that Biblegod IS a judge, should be the judge, and that we should not judge each other because only God can judge. You are in an extremely small minority of Christians if you really think God doesn't judge.
E.A For the Thousandth time Read Matthew 7 the WHOLE chapter, and try thinking ON it!
Colour and Bold added by E.A
L.L. Nice use of color and bold EA!
E.A SO what is Matthew Chapter SEVEN All about?
E.A Judging!
Judge as one WANTS to be Judged!
Take Precaution when Judging!
Wait to see the " Full Fruitage " so as to make SURE of the Quality OR Rot!
Never Assume to be OK! " Make Sure "!
So your another one of those that can quote the word of man verse by verse but hasn't a clue about the religion he claims to adhere to....
Thank you for proving my point....
You want a clue?
God Judges the judger, forgives the forgiver.....
Someday you may figure it out...