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Long Island City protesters tell Amazon, 'Stay the helipad out!'

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  6 years ago  •  84 comments

Long Island City protesters tell Amazon, 'Stay the helipad out!'
'Why can Google bring 20,000 jobs here without any public subsidies but Amazon needs $3 billion?' asked one state senator.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



By   Alyssa Newcomb

Protesters gathered near the site   where Amazon plans to build its New York City office complex   to voice their concern on Wednesday over the multibillion-dollar incentives being awarded to their future neighbor — and the subsequent impact it will have on housing, rent and transportation.

“I’m going to literally be the closest business to Amazon. They’re opening up on 44th Road. My barber shop is on 44th Road,” said Shawn Dixon, the owner of Otis & Finn, which has been in the neighborhood for the past four years. “The rent goes up, and it’s only going to get worse.”

Dixon held a sign that read, “Welcome Amazon! But first: Fund schools and infrastructure, pass small business protections, local businesses on the Amazon campus. Or stay the helipad out!”

The warning is a reference to the helipad Amazon allegedly asked for — in addition to   the $1.7 billion in performance-based tax incentives the retail giant procured from the state of New York . Amazon has also said it will apply for a subsidy program that would give property tax abatements for up to 25 years, along with other tax incentive programs for which it may be eligible.

Protesters gathered Wednesday in Gordan Triangle near Amazon’s future headquarters listened to local politicians who said they weren’t given a seat at the table during negotiations and demanded transparency and a say before Amazon breaks ground in Long Island City.

“Why can Google bring 20,000 jobs here without any public subsidies but Amazon needs $3 billion?” asked state Senator Mike Gianaris. “What is so special about Amazon?”

Congresswoman-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, whose district is in Queens, was at freshman orientation in Washington but sent a representative to the protest, who said Ocasio-Cortez opposes the current Amazon deal.

For more than an hour, several local politicians and community activists spoke to a crowd holding signs and offering a chorus of boos every time the helipad and billions of dollars were mentioned.

“We don’t even have heat and hot water in Queensbridge!” one protester shouted. The Queensbridge Houses are the country’s largest housing project and will be Amazon’s new neighbor.

While there were plenty of protesters, not everyone from the area is anti-Amazon. Jim Dillon, who said he has lived in the area for 65 years and lives in a rent stabilized apartment, carried a small sign that read, “Welcome Amazon! And I live in L.I.C.”

“I have no dog in this fight. I’ve never even ordered anything from Amazon,” Dillon said.

“I want jobs for working class people,” he added. “Obviously most of the jobs at Amazon are technocratic and will pay a lot of money, but there will also be jobs for people who are janitors, security guards.”

Still, he said he believed New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo could have made a better deal.

“They gave away the store. There’s no two ways about it,” he said.

Amazon's decision to select Long Island City for one of its newest office complexes was only made public on Tuesday, but Gianaris said the fight is just beginning.

“We are not giving up until we scuttle this deal, scrap it, throw it in the garbage and start the conversation again,” he said.


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Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.    6 years ago

As a New Yorker, this is a hard one for me. There will be a lot of good jobs that come out of this, but part of it feels like too much of a sweetheart deal. 

Any thoughts....

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
1.1  epistte  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    6 years ago

Jeff Bezos is almost as bad as the robber barons.  It's time to end the practice of states paying off companies to locate there via tax cuts and exemptions. 

I feel increasingly guilty about my Prime membership because of the actions of the company, and I think that I won't renew it next June.   I don't like the idea that my shopping supports his slave labor at warehouses/shipping centers and his gaming of states for additional profit. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
1.1.1  Cerenkov  replied to  epistte @1.1    6 years ago

Slave labor? What bullshit. You should be ashamed for minimizing actual slavery. 

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Quiet
1.1.2  Spikegary  replied to  epistte @1.1    6 years ago
Jeff Bezos is almost as bad as the robber barons

That's just foolish.  A company decided it was adding two new locations.  Everyone started competing to make the best offer.  If you have a problem over what was offered, pour your scorn on the idiot Bloomberg and his daddy-rabbit, Andrew Cuomo.  Cuomo just got re-elected basically by NYC types that think they will be getting rainbows and unicorns.  They are the people that blessed this deal.

If you don't like Amazon, then don't buy from Amazon.  It's that simple.  Blaming him for the deal he was offered is simply stupid.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
1.1.3  epistte  replied to  Cerenkov @1.1.1    6 years ago
Slave labor? What bullshit. You should be ashamed for minimizing actual slavery. 

Those jobs end up costing us money and the turn over rate is more than 50%. It's a scam.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
1.1.4  Cerenkov  replied to  epistte @1.1.3    6 years ago

Nah. That's simply not true.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.2  Ender  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    6 years ago

Just reading this, it doesn't seem like it would be worth it. It doesn't seem like the jobs gained would even cover the taxes that will be lost.

Property tax abatement plus tax incentives plus other tax incentive programs.

Almost seems like Amazon will be living in New York cheaper than long time residents.

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
1.3  zuksam  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    6 years ago

I would like to see this type of Corporate Blackmail made Illegal. Why should big companies be allowed to negotiate their tax rates under threat of "if you don't lower taxes we won't move here" or "we'll move away if you don't", or play different communities against each other to wrangle a sweetheart deal.. This shifts the tax burden unfairly onto everyone else, why should a smaller and most times less profitable business be forced to pay a higher tax rate just because they don't employ as many people. When these big companies come to town they hired the biggest most well connected Law Firms in town and then start making political contributions to all the local Politicians that way when they start negotiating they already own the people who are negotiating "against" them. I'd like to see a Law that says Corporate Taxes must be fair and equal for all businesses big and small with no sweetheart deals whatsoever. Corporations would be free to move anywhere they want but when they get there they will pay the same tax rates as every other business in that Municipality. Municipal Governments would be free to raise or lower taxes as they see fit but it will be an across the board rate change not a sweetheart deal for the few who need it the least but have the power and money to muscle a better deal for themselves.

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Quiet
1.3.1  Spikegary  replied to  zuksam @1.3    6 years ago

Your supposition of them negotiating tax breaks is incorrect.  They announced they were looking for 2 locations and places all over the country (and in Canada too) tried to put together the most attractive package to bring the business in.  NY state continues to lose jobs (no matter how slick Andy Cuomo tries to spin things).  The overall economy in the state ranks right around dead last in the country.  So tell me, why would a company move to a palce that is harder to do businees, charges more in taxes (State and city taxes) and is not affordable for real estate needs nor for their employees?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
1.3.2  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Spikegary @1.3.1    6 years ago

Gary,

Our state GDP is the second highest in the nation. 

And NY does not even make the top 10 in lost jobs

https://www.csmonitor.com/Photo-Galleries/Lists/The-biggest-loser-Which-state-lost-the-most-jobs/(photo)/259514

I realize that this might not be reflective of what is going on in Buffalo. 

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
1.3.3  zuksam  replied to  Spikegary @1.3.1    6 years ago
So tell me, why would a company move to a palce that is harder to do businees, charges more in taxes (State and city taxes) and is not affordable for real estate needs nor for their employees?

Because that's where the type of employees they need already live. If tax rates and real estate costs were the most important thing they could move to some rural area but the kind of professional educated people they need don't want to live in a company town with no other options for employment. But it doesn't matter what they do I just don't believe it's fair to all the other tax payers for Amazon or any other company to get a better tax rate and other benefits. It's unamerican, we've just gotten used to this type of crap but that doesn't make it right. They should pay their fair share just like every other tax payer in whatever municipality they chose and they're free to chose whatever place has the lowest rate but I don't think special deals for certain companies is fair.

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Quiet
1.3.5  Spikegary  replied to  zuksam @1.3.3    6 years ago

Then you should blame the elected representatives that put together the 'offer'.  A compamy is always going to do what is best for the company.  Period.

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Quiet
1.3.6  Spikegary  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.3.2    6 years ago

Okay, then you throw in taxes (sales, city income tax, state income tax, real estate taxes, school taxes, etc., etc.) and that takes a huge toll on the money we make, plus the onerous rules/regulations/laws that end up costing everyone more money (911 'tax' on phone bills the 911 centers never see) ans there's a $10 per registration 'tax' for 'law enforcement'.  The list goes on and on.

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
1.3.7  zuksam  replied to  Spikegary @1.3.5    6 years ago
you should blame the elected representatives that put together the 'offer'

I do, like I said I think these types of special deals should be against the Law. Even though it's legal I think it's wrong and unfair to others so I blame everyone, the Politicians who give special deals, the Companies that pursue these deals, and anyone who supports this type of corrupt favoritism as it proves that fairness is not one of their moral principals.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
1.3.8  Thrawn 31  replied to  Spikegary @1.3.1    6 years ago
Your supposition of them negotiating tax breaks is incorrect.  They announced they were looking for 2 locations and places all over the country (and in Canada too) tried to put together the most attractive package to bring the business in.

Hate to agree with you, but that is truth. All Amazon did was say "we want to build a second headquarters and employ 50,000 people, what ya got for us?" and the idiot city politicians came crawling. 

The overall economy in the state ranks right around dead last in the country.  So tell me, why would a company move to a palce that is harder to do businees, charges more in taxes (State and city taxes) and is not affordable for real estate needs nor for their employees?

Because the people are there, the infrastructure is there, and it is fucking New York City. Tons of fun if you have never been, I need to go back. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2  Kavika     6 years ago

Make a deal with the devil. $3 BILLION in tax breaks for jobs...Doesn't seem like that good of a deal to me but states have been giving away the store for decades to get business to move to their state. Since the other half of this is going to be in Virginia it will be interesting to see what Virginia gave away as compared to NY. 

Trusting a politician to make a good deal for the taxpayer is, IMO, wishful thinking. 

Here is a good link to tax breaks for corporations. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
3  Cerenkov    6 years ago

Amazon played by the rules but socialists still hate jobs. Sad.

 
 
 
It Is ME
Masters Guide
3.1  It Is ME  replied to  Cerenkov @3    6 years ago

"New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo could have made a better deal."

I wonder why they aren't at Cuomo's house Protesting....since "In your Face" was the war cry of the "Left" for the ……. "Others"jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
3.2  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Cerenkov @3    6 years ago
Amazon played by the rules but socialists still hate jobs. Sad.

Look a little deeper. Yep it is sad that the residents didn't seem to have much of a say on what is about to happen to them. I'd be pissed. Rent is high enough as it is and I cant compete with Amazon or the wages they evidently can pay certain people. It would hurt me and I'm certainly too old to be hired by them. I wouldn't want amazon moving in next to me for damn sure !!

 
 
 
It Is ME
Masters Guide
3.2.1  It Is ME  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @3.2    6 years ago
Rent is high enough as it is

There's that "Cost of Living" problem again.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
3.2.2  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  It Is ME @3.2.1    6 years ago
There's that "Cost of Living" problem again.

yep and when the government does things and  makes deals to affect it without the local citizens having much choice IMO: It sucks. 

As I said If amazon came to my town and I never had a chance to vote on huge tax breaks and special deals to get them there Id' be pissed. 

Then to have to deal with the cost increase associated with it would be a huge slap in the face. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
Masters Guide
3.2.3  It Is ME  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @3.2.2    6 years ago

We aren't a "Democracy"....all though some will try and say we are !

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
3.2.4  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  It Is ME @3.2.3    6 years ago
We aren't a "Democracy"....all though some will try and say we are !

Still sucks !!!

lol

.

yep and when the government does things and  makes deals to affect it without the local citizens having much choice IMO: It sucks. 

As I said If amazon came to my town and I never had a chance to vote on huge tax breaks and special deals to get them there Id' be pissed. 

Then to have to deal with the cost increase associated with it would be a huge slap in the face. 

.

At this point in my life I have limited options. Going Up against what a huge corporation moving into my immediate area would do to the area financially wise would definitely have a chance of having a very negative effect on what life I have left. So,  you can bet I'd be pissed.

I'd actually probably need to relocate once again myself to finish out with a decent quality of life. (my finances aren't set up well enough to allow for that much of a financial challenge) At least I legally can relocate though eh? Pushed out by progress. 

Getting old sucks !

LOL But it still beats the alternative.

 
 
 
It Is ME
Masters Guide
3.2.5  It Is ME  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @3.2.4    6 years ago
Getting old sucks !

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

We're such curmudgeons ain't we ?

I love Amazon. Best thing since sliced bread. Shopping without leaving the house. jrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gif

I hate malls !

Back on a subject, I think you would think a True Democracy sucked worse than the Republic we have now. Just imagine, a few "States" making all the decisions for you. )))))shudder(((((

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Quiet
3.2.6  Spikegary  replied to  It Is ME @3.2.5    6 years ago

We already have that in New York.  NYC electing schmucks like Occasio and re-electing Chucky, Gillibrand and Cuomo.......more people more votes.  Promise the moon and get the vote.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
3.2.7  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  It Is ME @3.2.5    6 years ago
I think you would think a True Democracy sucked worse than the Republic we have now.

I Would, I also want a say in my local environment. Especially when this kind of huge local governmental deal making is going on.

Not that I dont trust the politicians or anything....LOL 

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
3.2.8  pat wilson  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @3.2.4    6 years ago

Have you ever thought about living in another country ? I'm not fully retired yet but I'm considering it. Warm weather, lower cost of living, it's tempting.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
3.2.9  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  pat wilson @3.2.8    6 years ago
Have you ever thought about living in another country ?

Honestly, Yes. But I 'm not ready to give up on America yet. It's my hope that we get to a point sanity and a sense of unity returns.  

241 years is a pretty good track record hopefully all is not yet lost.

Time will tell.

When ya see the wealth flew, get on the bus if ya can though !!!

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
3.2.10  PJ  replied to  pat wilson @3.2.8    6 years ago

I've actually thought about becoming an ex-patriot when I retire.  Just being exposed to the utter idiocy of those who would support this Presidency has made me realize how stupid so many Americans are. 

I feel no allegiance to them.  

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Quiet
3.2.11  Spikegary  replied to  PJ @3.2.10    6 years ago

Venezuela beckons.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
3.2.12  pat wilson  replied to  PJ @3.2.10    6 years ago

Panama, Costa Rica, Equador...

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
3.2.14  PJ  replied to  pat wilson @3.2.12    6 years ago

Yes, those are some possibilities but I'm a little bit of a diva so I'll have to do some serious research before I make the plunge.  Sadly I have plenty of time left before I can retire.  jrSmiley_89_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
3.2.18  PJ  replied to  dennis smith @3.2.17    6 years ago

I was responding to another comment.  Feel free to skip over it if you don't think it's relevant. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
3.2.19  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  dennis smith @3.2.16    6 years ago
The residents did have a say, they elected the government

I understand that aspect of it, however it's common practice that when major decisions come up many towns, cities and counties and even states hold public hearings and many times stuff this big comes  before the citizens for a vote,

But it sounds like these government people wanted no part of that, The deal they were making was huge and I doubt they wanted the input or hassles of reporting at the time to those they represented. 

Sorry I do not trust politicians, experience shows us not to. 

Talk to a native american or a DOCA person, see how much they say to trust our politicians. They will probably tell ya the US government makes deals it will later change or break depending on who is in power at any one time. 

Other countries are in the process of finding that out as well. 

Nope don't ask me to trust an untrustworthy person or government , I don't. Neither did the founding fathers that's why they put so many checks and balances into the constitution. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.3  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Cerenkov @3    6 years ago
Amazon played by the rules but socialists still hate jobs. Sad.

NY is hardly socialist, or did you forget about Wall St?

I don't think that is the issue. I think the issue is how much was paid to get them here as opposed to what DC paid. It will come out of the pockets of the rest of NY. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.3.2  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to    6 years ago

They gave them tax incentives. 

Incentives from New York state:   $1.525 billion, including:

  • $1.2 billion in refundable tax credits from state’s Excelsior Program over 10 years, based on the creation of 25,000 jobs that pay an average of $150,000.
  • $325 million from Empire State Development based on how much space Amazon takes over the next decade.

Incentives from New York City:

  • Amazon said it would apply for a New York City subsidy program that would provide it property-tax abatements for up to 25 years.
  • The company also is to seek incentives under a city program that could provide $3,000 in tax credits per eligible employee over 12 years, implying a $900 million benefit if all 25,000 workers are eligible. Amazon may also be eligible for other tax credits.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
3.3.4  Cerenkov  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.3.2    6 years ago

So, it cost NY nothing? If they didn't come, there would be no revenue.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
3.3.5  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Cerenkov @3.3.4    6 years ago
So, it cost NY nothing? If they didn't come, there would be no revenue.

But they are coming and they surely will come at a cost to the taxpayers in various forms. Moe people, more problems,more laws and mare governmnet.at more cost. 

This is almost as bad as illegals who dont pay taxes, at least illegals aren't supposed to get benefits back.

I doubt that's true of Amazon. 

 
 
 
cms5
Freshman Quiet
5  cms5    6 years ago

Gee...Northern Virginia got off cheap!

Virginia’s state and local governments agreed to shell out as much as $796 million in tax incentives and infrastructure improvements over the next 15 years in exchange for 25,000 well-paying tech jobs. That works out to just under $32,000 per job -- about half of the $61,000 per job that Amazon said it will receive from New York to create the same number of jobs at the site in Long Island City in Queens.

It would appear that these two VERY BLUE States aren't anti-megacorporation when it suits them.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1  Kavika   replied to  cms5 @5    6 years ago

I don't believe that it's either a blue or red state thing. Both seem to piss away the taxpayers money. 

The deal that Wisconsin gave Foxconn is a couple of steps beyond unbelievable...

 

 
 
 
cms5
Freshman Quiet
5.1.1  cms5  replied to  Kavika @5.1    6 years ago
I don't believe that it's either a blue or red state thing. Both seem to piss away the taxpayers money.

Agreed. However, it needed to be pointed out...next time you hear a Dem politician claiming they'll make 'big corporations pay their fair share of taxes'...be sure to remind us all that BOTH sides are okay with spending YOUR tax dollars.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
7  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.    6 years ago

So as a New Yorker, not thrilled, especially when I read about the deal DC gave the evil empire. I think they way overpaid to get some jobs here. I didn't want to state my opinion right away. It might have tainted the discussion. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
7.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @7    6 years ago
not thrilled

If I owned property in the area I would be. Damn I wish I owned property in that area right now lol.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
7.2.1  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.2    6 years ago
Damn I wish I owned property in that area right now lol.

True , But I wouldn't want to have to buy property in that area for much longer, cause ya know the prices are about to skyrocket there. 

A bonanza for the homeowners who already own property there, a nightmare for those needing to buy property there soon though.

Also anyone wanting to sell and rebuy there if they dont time it right, they're likely to screw themselves over as well. If they sell and the prices increase too much before they rebuy they may be screwed. 

Buy low sell high (Hard to do in a run away market, unless you are always the seller) lol

Not to mention the increased prime lending rates also going up again recently combined with many new residence with high salaries coming in sucking up the existing market. 

Yep give it a few years some will profit greatly at both of these locations, others will suffer to find shelter. 

That's Progress I guess, Makin America Great again.

(for some)

IMO: If things like this are not done very carefully, people get hurt.  The less care and planning, the more people that get hurt.

Good Luck America !

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
7.2.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @7.2.1    6 years ago
True , But I wouldn't want to have to buy property in that area for much longer, cause ya know the prices are about to skyrocket there. 

Exactly, hence why I wish I already owned it. Make a killing off even a shitty fixer upper here in a few years.

A bonanza for the homeowners who already own property there, a nightmare for those needing to buy property there soon though.

Yep, but there are always winners and losers.

Also anyone wanting to sell and rebuy there if they dont time it right, they're likely to screw themselves over as well. If they sell and the prices increase too much before they rebuy they may be screwed. 

I wouldn't sell unless I wasn't coming back. 

Yep give it a few years some will profit greatly at both of these locations, others will suffer to find shelter. 

Kinda like where I currently live, property values only really go up because there is ever increasing demand and supply simply can't keep up. Sucks for a lot of people here because they struggle put a roof over their heads, but it has secured my retirement. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
7.2.3  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.2.2    6 years ago
there are always winners and losers.

Of course. That's life from the lizard eating the fly to the rat eating the lizard. 

But when in America your own government that you may have voted for makes major decisions that probably will be affecting every single occupant of the town and instead of me having any so so I doubt I'd be real happy, especially if I perceived logicly that I personally would be negatively affected. Even if it's supposed to be for the good of all, as part of that ALL I'd like a voice. It doesn't appear these citizens did. 

Like I stated before my trust in the government to do the best thing for me is questionable. (at best) 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
7.2.5  Thrawn 31  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @7.2.3    6 years ago
That's life from the lizard eating the fly to the rat eating the lizard. 

And the snake eating the rat, and the eagle eating the snake, and the human killing the eagle for fun :)

As for the rest, vote them out, that is our option as voters. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
7.2.6  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Have Opinion Will Travel @7.2.4    6 years ago
You would be much better off in my view if you didn’t trust the government to do anything for you at all.

Yeah unfortunately though when it comes to as brutal and destructive of a species mankind actually turns out to be, without laws or rules we trend to live in a world of Might makes Right. 

Even with all the laws, rules and government we are lucky not to be ripped off, deceived , sold shoddy goods, have our environment destroyed around us and have our food save enough to eat, safe water to drink and air to breath. With out laws I doubt we'd even have that by now. 

So, until mankind evolves quite a bit I have a feeling we do have a need if not a want for some sort of governing force to hold us responsible, because many humans sure aren't very responsible on their own. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
7.2.7  Thrawn 31  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @7.2.6    6 years ago
Yeah unfortunately though when it comes to as brutal and destructive of a species mankind actually turns out to be, without laws or rules we trend to live in a world of Might makes Right. 

Exactly right. Hence why I have said that if I were an alien species and I came across us, I would at best quarantine the planet, or at worst exterminate our species. 

So, until mankind evolves quite a bit I have a feeling we do have a need if not a want for some sort of governing force to hold us responsible, because many humans sure aren't very responsible on their own. 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Guide
7.2.8  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.2.7    6 years ago
if I were an alien species and I came across us, I would at best quarantine the planet, or at worst exterminate our species. 

WOW, Never thought of that. But yeah hard telling IF our species survives long enough what we could do. 

It looks like we really may be screwing up the only planet we know can sustain us now and for one reason or another so many humans dont even want to consider we may be doing it. 

logicly it seems if ya pump a bunch of crap into a clean atmosphere there is going to be a reaction, and likely it isn't going to be positive or easy to clean up. Just like throwing a cup of crap into a bucket of clean water, how soon are ya gonna want to drink it. 

Mankind... wow

LOL Then.. We're IMO: Stupid enough not knowing WTF  might be "out there" to advertise not only our existence but our location to boot... DUUU

Mankind .. WOW

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9  Kavika     6 years ago

This is an interesting article and, IMO, hit the nail on the head. 

Editor’s note: The opinions in this article are the author’s, as published by our content partner, and do not necessarily represent the views of MSN or Microsoft.

Over the 14-month "Bachelor"-like competition for Amazon's second headquarters, more than 200 cities across the country went to embarrassing and expensive lengths to woo the online retailer. City leaders raced to hire consultants, compile data and draft elaborate proposals, offering ever more generous financial incentive packages, all in hopes of landing the promised $5-billion corporate office with 50,000 high-paying jobs.

Although Amazon may have flirted with mid-sized cities like Pittsburgh and Denver, and eyed Rust Belt resurgence in Indianapolis and Columbus, Ohio, the company ultimately picked two of the nation's biggest metropolitan areas for its new corporate centers — New York City and Greater Washington, D.C. — with each landing half the jobs. The company managed to extract well more than $2 billion in financial incentives and tax breaks in the process. Whether those incentives pay off for taxpayers will depend in large measure on how well Amazon does in the coming years, and whether its success gets passed on to workers in the new offices.

In the end, did all that wooing really make a difference? Nah. It sure looks like Amazon used the "open bidding" process to play cities against each other so it could extract more financial incentives from a short list of locations the company was seriously considering for headquarters. The process generated some offers that certainly seemed irrationally exuberant; for example, Philadelphia and the state of Pennsylvania offered subsidies worth about half a billion dollars more than Amazon said it was going to invest in the new headquarters.

Related video: Amazon Is Getting a Lot From New York and Arlington (provided by Now This News

Amazon Is Getting a Lot From New York and Arlington

Research has shown that companies typically choose their locations based on availability of skilled workers, infrastructure, business environment and the quality of life employees can expect. Tax breaks can sometimes make the difference between two similarly situated cities. But all the incentives in the world are not going to convince an Amazon-like behemoth to move to, say, Indiana, if it can't attract the extremely-in-demand tech talent to work there.

Indeed, the company said as much. "We looked at what our employees want, and where they would want to live," an Amazon executive said Tuesday at a news conference. The company ended up seeking two headquarters instead of one because no single city had enough tech workers to meet its hiring needs.

Amazon is one of the world's biggest companies. It needs to expand and it has to do that in the few cities with large, highly skilled workforces — such as New York City and Washington. Google recently announced it was planning to expand its offices in New York to accommodate more than 20,000 workers — without subsidies. So why are financial incentives for Amazon even on the table? After all, Amazon had already decided to create the jobs; the only question was where it would put them.

To make matters worse, Amazon's planned headquarters in New York's Long Island City is in a newly designated "opportunity zone," potentially eligible for tax breaks designed to increase investment in low-income communities. But the neighborhood has already gentrified — there are shiny new high-rises and the median income is $138,000 a year — meaning the arrival of the online retailer will be an additional boon to real estate investors, including possibly Amazon itself, according to the New York Times.

If a tax break goes to a company that would have moved in even without such a subsidy, then taxpayers have traded away money that could have been spent on education, infrastructure and other public services. Nor are such tax giveaways fair to existing businesses that pay their required share of taxes and rely on the services and infrastructure funded by those tax dollars. Worse, researchers have found that incentives are often poorly targeted and don't deliver the promised benefits in terms of jobs and economic activity. That's not economic development. It's corporate welfare.

Cities and states can't continue this race to the bottom. They have to be more savvy when the next mega-company comes knocking for subsidies. Some academics have proposed a kind of armistice or interstate compact in which states collectively refuse to offer company-specific financial incentive packages.

That would make it harder for the next Amazon-like company to goad cities and states into offering bigger, pricier subsidies. States can compete with each other on other, more important factors — the quality of their education systems, housing costs, tax structures and the availability of skilled workers.

Amazon played the incentive game masterfully. Cities just got played.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Guide
10  Nowhere Man    6 years ago

Yep that is the result when a city council announces that a mega corporation that is paying billions in state & local taxes are declared the "Enemy" of the city.

they walked it back just a little and Bezo's walked his rhetoric back a little, but he's still building a new HQ.....

Makes it a lot easier to move out of the old one...

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
11  Thrawn 31    6 years ago

Amazon played all these cities for suckers, and it just makes me laugh. There were, really only a small handful of cities that have the infrastructure and talent pool to meet Amazon's vision, so places like Indiana never had a chance. Additionally Amazon was going to build this place and create these jobs already with no tax subsidies, so there was absolutely no reason to offer them any. This whole thing just reminds me of a football stadium lol. 

 
 

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