Trump lied about ElPaso knowing that the next day the lie would be exposed.  He doesnt care because the deplorables believed him last night and Fox News won't mention the lie today.

And the best you can do is "try" to use figures from 2010 as your "supporting" documentation?  Hell John, Juarez, the leading murder city in Central and South America is just a cigarette butt throw from El Paso and all of us living in proximity KNOW that El Paso ain't safe.  Driving down I-10 at night towards El Paso, you can SEE AND HEAR the friggin' guns being fired - ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.

Yeah, it's safe alright.

Yeah, it's safe alright.

It was Donald Trump that said El Paso was a safe place now, not John.

Who authored the thread?  John or his nemesis Trump?

Next

Who authored the thread?  John or his nemesis Trump?

Who was it who lied during the SOTU about crime being down in El Paso? Oh, that's right, it was Donald Trump.

Next.

Who authored the thread? John or his nemesis Trump?

Neither, it was ALEXIA FERNÁNDEZ CAMPBELL, it's right there in the seed. Though the fact is, Trump IS quoted as stating:

Now, with a powerful barrier in place, El Paso is one of our safest cities.

Next. 

Wow - been waiting for this moment -

The AUTHOR of this THREAD on NT is NONE OTHER than JOHN RUSSELL as stated by the INTRO line VIA - John Russell.  It's right there at the top of this THREAD, which is SEEDING an ARTICLE by ALEXIA FERNANDEZ CAMPBELL of VOX, A LEFT-leaning, LEFT-centered garner of newsspeak.

Next

Wow - been waiting for this moment -

What 'moment' is that 1st? 

The AUTHOR of this THREAD on NT is NONE OTHER than JOHN RUSSELL as stated by the INTRO line VIA - John Russell.  It's right there at the top of this THREAD, which is SEEDING an ARTICLE by ALEXIA FERNANDEZ CAMPBELL of VOX, A LEFT-leaning, LEFT-centered garner of newsspeak. Next

Actually, 1st, John isn't the 'AUTHOR' of the Seed OR this THREAD. The article written by ALEXIA FERNANDEZ CAMPBELL of VOX is SEEDED, and John is the SEEDER. It's right there in front of his name in his first comment. 

One doesn't AUTHOR a THREAD 1st, unless of course one is the sole person to comment within it. One BEGINS a THREAD, just as you BEGAN THREAD # 3 within said SEED, John BEGAN THREAD #1.

I correctly presumed that you were mistakenly using THREAD instead of the proper term SEED because John hasn't made a comment in this THREAD. 

He is supposed to visiting El Paso next week.  If he thinks it "a safe place now", let him leave his security home.

El Paso sheriff blasts Trump's 'false

narrative' on border crime

1st, the sheriff of El Paso made the statement blasting Trump TODAY. Not in 2010. 

Hell John, Juarez, the leading murder city in Central and South America

Not even close (depending on the source)

Rank	City	Country	Homicides (2017)	Population (2017)	Homicides per 100,000
1	Los Cabos	Mexico	369	328,245	111.33
2	Caracas	Venezuela	3,387	3,046,104	111.19
3	Acapulco	Mexico	910	853,646	106.63
4	Natal	Brazil	1,378	1,343,573	102.56
5	Tijuana	Mexico	1,897	1,882,492	100.77
6	La Paz	Mexico	259	305,455	84.79
7	Fortaleza	Brazil	3,270	3,917,279	83.48
8	Ciudad Victoria	Mexico	301	361,078	83.32
9	Ciudad Guayana	Venezuela	728	906,879	80.28
10	Belém	Brazil	1,743	2,441,761	71.38
11	Vitória da Conquista	Brazil	245	348,718	70.26
12	Culiacán	Mexico	671	957,613	70.10
13	St. Louis	United States	205	311,404	65.83
14	Maceió	Brazil	658	1,029,129	63.94
15	Cape Town	South Africa	2,493	4,004,793	62.25
16	Kingston	Jamaica	705	1,180,771	59.71
17	San Salvador	El Salvador	1,057	1,789,588	59.06
18	Aracaju	Brazil	560	951,073	58.88
19	Feira de Santana	Brazil	369	627,477	58.81
20	Ciudad Juárez	Mexico	814	1,448,859	56.16
21	Baltimore	United States	341	614,664	55.48
22	Recife	Brazil	2,180	3,965,699	54.96
23	Maturín	Venezuela	327	600,722	54.43
24	Guatemala City	Guatemala	1,705	3,187,293	53.49
25	Salvador	Brazil	2,071	4,015,205

	San Pedro Sula	Honduras	392	765,864	51.18
27	Valencia	Venezuela	784	1,576,071	49.74
28	Cali	Colombia	1,261	2,542,876	49.59
29	Chihuahua	Mexico	460	929,884	49.48
30	João Pessoa	Brazil	554	1,126,613	49.17
31	Obregón	Mexico	166	339,000	48.96
32	San Juan	Puerto Rico	169	347,052	48.70
33	Barquisimeto	Venezuela	644	1,335,348	48.23
34	Manaus	Brazil	1,024	2,130,264	48.07
35	Distrito Central (Tegucigalpa)	Honduras	588	1,224,897	48.00
36	Tepic	Mexico	237	503,330	47.09
37	Palmira	Colombia	144	308,669	46.65
38	Reynosa	Mexico	294	701,525	41.95
39	Porto Alegre	Brazil	1,748	4,268,083	40.96
40	Macapá	Brazil	191	474,706	40.24
41	New Orleans	United States	157	391,495	40.10
42	Detroit	United States	267	672,795	39.69
43	Mazatlán	Mexico	192	488,281	39.32
44	Durban	South Africa	1,396	3,661,911	38.12
45	Campos dos Goytacazes	Brazil	184	490,288	37.53
46	Nelson Mandela Bay (Port Elizabeth)	South Africa	474	1,263,051	37.53
47	Campina Grande	Brazil	153	410,332	37.29
48	Teresina	Brazil	315	850,198	37.05
49	Vitoria	Brazil	707	1,960,213	36.07
50	Cúcuta	Colombia	290	833,743	34.78

en.m.wikipedia

Country	No. of cities
Brazil	17
Mexico	12
Venezuela	5
United States	4
South Africa	3
Colombia	3
Honduras	2
Jamaica	1
El Salvador	1
Guatemala	1
Puerto Rico	1

Those facts have already been presented here many times. The last time the BS about Juarez was posted, I pointed out that based on ACTUAL DATE, St. Louis is more 'dangerous' than Juarez and included the link. 

They DO NOT CARE about facts. It doesn't seem to matter how many times their false talking points are refuted, they just keep spewing BS and undoubtedly, this very same pile of BS about Juarez will be stated as fact right here on NT in the near future. 

Isn't it always so much fun listening to the self deluding experts about border issues who live nowhere on or near the border tell us poor deluded folks who live on the border and deal with it every day that there are no problems in our borders? They get their info spoonfed to them by the liberal MSM so it just has to be true right?

The article is about Trump lying to the people in the Congress and the audience at home that listened to his state of the union address.

It is not about the perceptions of unrelated people , unless I guess you live in El Paso and want to dispute the statements of the sheriff there and the local newspaper.

In fact, violent crime in the El Paso increased by 17 percent from 2006 to 2011. Contractors began building the 57-mile fence in 2008 and finished in 2009.

Quite possibly, the most useless statistic ever posted. 

Actually El Paso, TX, did experience a decrease in crime after 2009.

city-data

And Ciudad Juarez, on the Mexican side of the fence across from El Paso, is one of the most dangerous cities in the world.  The El Paso Times even acknowledges that.

elpasotimes

How can El Paso be one of the safest cities in the United States when its neighboring city of Juarez, across the border, is one of the most dangerous cities in the world?

If Mexico experiences less crime than the United States, why would migrants want to leave Mexico?

Law enforcement.

We currently have extradited several police officers from Jaurez to go on trial in El Paso.

They apparently not only succumbed to the cartels, they were highly placed within the cartel,

One was in charge of protecting warehouses of cocaine (destined for the USA )

elpasotimes

We currently have extradited several police officers from Jaurez to go on trial in El Paso.

So Mexico really is sending its criminals to the United States.  If Mexican law enforcement is that corrupt, why would it be surprising that illegal immigration is being used for criminal purposes?

ncronline

Gee, that's swell.  But the issue isn't about the permanent residents of El Paso and Juarez, is it?

Migrant caravans are not traveling from Central America to settle in El Paso or Juarez.  The permanent residents of both cities would likely change their view if migrants stopped in their cities and did not leave.  Migrants are not bringing economic opportunities with them; they are seeking economic opportunity. 

El Paso has a poverty rate of ~22 pct.  Would open border migration alleviate that?  

Data USA: El Paso, TX

You said Juarez "is one of the most dangerous cities in the world".

Now you want to change the subject to the caravans from Central America and the poverty rate in El Paso?

The 2 countries have had open borders for two centuries until recently and it's allways been a poorer area than the rest of the country mostly due to climate and a lack of water other than the Rio Grande.

Ever been to ElPaso, McAllen, Brownsville? Del Rio? Laredo?

You said Juarez "is one of the most dangerous cities in the world".

The El Paso times said Juarez is one of the most dangerous cities in the world, in the link I provided.

Now you want to change the subject to the caravans from Central America and the poverty rate in El Paso?

The link to the National Catholic Reporter article is about the residents of El Paso.  But the permanent residents of El Paso aren't why a physical barrier was constructed to separate El Paso and Juarez.  The migrant caravans are transient; they are not settling in El Paso.  One reason is the higher poverty rate in El Paso; there isn't enough economic opportunity to support the permanent population let alone attract more residents from the transient population of illegal immigrants.

Actually El Paso, TX, did experience a decrease in crime after 2009.

Actually, per your own link, El Paso had been experiencing a decrease in crime throughout the 2000s. In fact, BEFORE the barrier was built, bigger decreases in crime occurred year by year. 

2002-364.4

2003-343.6

2004-318.9

2005- 286.7

2006- 286.1

2007-279.5

2008-279.3

2009-261.5

So as you can see, there were MUCH bigger decreases in the early 2000s than in 2009. IF the wall was the reason for the decrease in crime, one would see BIGGER decreases AFTER 2009. The data in YOUR link doesn't show BIGGER decreases. 

How can El Paso be one of the safest cities in the United States when its neighboring city of Juarez, across the border, is one of the most dangerous cities in the world?

Trump says it's because of a fantasy wall, data and the LEO's in El Paso refute that.

Do you disagree with Trump when he states: 'Now, with a powerful barrier in place, El Paso is one of our safest cities.'? 

BTW, the El Paso Times also says Trump is full of it when it comes to his wall.

Why did you stop at 2009?  The link provides data from 2002 to 2016.  Not surprising the biggest drop was in theft.  The violent crimes are occurring in Juarez and those criminals jump the border to flee Mexican law enforcement.  People aren't crossing the border to commit violent crimes; that is happening on the other side of the wall.

You haven't answered the question.  How can El Paso be one of the safest cities in the United States when Juarez on the other side of the wall is one of the most dangerous cities in the world?  

Why did you stop at 2009? The link provides data from 2002 to 2016. 

By all means, post them. As I said, they don't show BIGGER decreases than those accomplished in the early 2000s. 

You haven't answered the question. How can El Paso be one of the safest cities in the United States when Juarez on the other side of the wall is one of the most dangerous cities in the world?

Per the El Paso Times, it has more to do with the people than with the wall. 

elpasotimes

I have already posted the complete data by providing a link.  I did not attempt to manipulate the data; everything is provided in the link.

Limiting the comparison to violent crime is disingenuous.  The violent crime is occurring on the Mexican side of the border.  That's why Juarez is considered a dangerous city.  Criminals jumping the border to flee Mexican law enforcement aren't going to commit violent crimes in El Paso; they are seeking asylum.  Even deportation allows criminals to evade Mexican law enforcement.  

I have already posted the complete data by providing a link.  I did not attempt to manipulate the data; everything is provided in the link.

Then why are you whining about me stopping @ 2009? 

Limiting the comparison to violent crime is disingenuous.

Who did that? Like you said, the link is there for everyone to interpret themselves. 

The violent crime is occurring on the Mexican side of the border. That's why Juarez is considered a dangerous city.

So is St. Louis and the last time I looked it's in the US and nowhere near a border. In fact, it's a MORE dangerous city than Juarez. 

Criminals jumping the border to flee Mexican law enforcement aren't going to commit violent crimes in El Paso; they are seeking asylum.

Then they won't make it through the 'reasonable fear' interview. No worries. 

Even deportation allows criminals to evade Mexican law enforcement.

Are you saying that the US is a sanctuary country? /s

Then why are you whining about me stopping @ 2009? 

The link provides the complete data; no need to p-hack what was already provided.  The data shows that the crime index for El Paso was comparable to the US average before the wall was constructed and fell below the US average after the wall was installed.

Why did the Democratically controlled Congress authorize building a border wall to separate El Paso and Juarez?  Was that a vanity project?

So is St. Louis and the last time I looked it's in the US and nowhere near a border. In fact, it's a MORE dangerous city than Juarez. 

Then why are migrants leaving a safe country like Mexico to jump the border into the US?  

Then they won't make it through the 'reasonable fear' interview. No worries. 

They'll be deported with a new identity; all duly recorded by INS.  It's an easy way to evade Mexican law enforcement.

The data shows that the crime index for El Paso was comparable to the US average before the wall was constructed and fell below the US average after the wall was installed.

The data shows that El Paso was BELOW US average in violent and property crime in 2002-2008 and then in 2009 violent crime went UP. 

Why did the Democratically controlled Congress authorize building a border wall to separate El Paso and Juarez? 

Please site the bill that authorized building a border 'WALL'. 

Was that a vanity project?

It's your fabrication, you tell me. 

Then why are migrants leaving a safe country like Mexico to jump the border into the US?

If there a reason, other than deflection, why you jump from talking about a CITY to talking about a COUNTRY? 

They'll be deported with a new identity; all duly recorded by INS. It's an easy way to evade Mexican law enforcement.

Really? Link? Or is that another twist in the plot of Sicario: Day of the Soldado? 

The data shows that El Paso was BELOW US average in violent and property crime in 2002-2008 and then in 2009 violent crime went UP. 

Source?  The link I provided doesn't provide that comparison; the link only provides a comparison for overall crime.

Please site the bill that authorized building a border 'WALL'. 

Here's a citation:

govinfo

I believe the legislation was enacted by the 109th Congress; Republicans held the majority in both chambers and George W. Bush was President.  However, the wall between El Paso and Juarez was constructed in 2009 when Democrats held the majority in both chambers of Congress and Barack Obama was President.  That suggests that Democrats either agreed with building the border wall or Democrats chose to ignore the issue of wall construction.

Source?  The link I provided doesn't provide that comparison; the link only provides a comparison for overall crime.

Actually, YES it does. Since you decried my posting of SPECIFIC data, go to your own link and scroll down. There IS data on year to year violent and property crime rates in El Paso and they each cite the US average for that same year. 

It's under City-Data.com crime index in El Paso, TX compared to other U.S. cities.

You're welcome. 

Here's a citation:

A citation of the 2006 bill entitled the 'SECURE FENCE ACT OF 2006'. The term 'WALL' is NOWHERE in that bill. 

Your statement that Democrats voted to ' authorize building a border wall' is false. It's didn't happen in 2006 and it didn't happen during the Obama Administration.

There IS NO WALL.

There IS a border FENCE and as your link proves, the Democrats HAVE voted to authorize appropriations for border FENCING for over a decade. In FACT, Democrats voted to report the DHS appropriations bill out of the GOP Chaired Committee in June of 2018 with the EXACT amount of funding for border FENCING that both Trump and the CBP requested for the 2019 Budget, 1.6 Billion. McConnell NEVER brought that bill to the floor. Ryan didn't bring the similar June 2018 House version to the floor either.

Trump did NOT request 5.7 BILLION for a border wall in his 2019 Budget. Trump has NEVER put an official request for 'WALL' funding in ANY budget request. 

Those are FACTS that Trump and his sycophants refuse to address. 

BTFW, I note that you didn't supply any support for your claim that people being deported back to Mexico are given new identities with the help of INS. Please support that claim. 

There IS a border FENCE and as your link proves, the Democrats HAVE voted to authorize appropriations for border FENCING for over a decade. In FACT, Democrats voted to report the DHS appropriations bill out of the GOP Chaired Committee in June of 2018 with the EXACT amount of funding for border FENCING that both Trump and the CBP requested for the 2019 Budget, 1.6 Billion. McConnell NEVER brought that bill to the floor. Ryan didn't bring the similar June 2018 House version to the floor either.

A physical barrier was constructed.  Whether it is called a wall, a fence, a deterrent, an impediment, or a thing; the physicality of what was constructed to separate El Paso and Juarez remains unchanged. 

El Paso and Juarez were NOT separated by cameras, scanners, sensors, or drones.   

A physical barrier was constructed.  Whether it is called a wall, a fence, a deterrent, an impediment, or a thing; the physicality of what was constructed to separate El Paso and Juarez remains unchanged.  El Paso and Juarez were NOT separated by cameras, scanners, sensors, or drones. 

Thanks for providing another conservative equivocation. 

It's a WALL,

Democrats voted for a WALL,

well maybe it's a barrier,

but dammit, don't call it what it really is,

a FENCE. 

BTW, still waiting for that link to your deported Mexicans get new identities thingy...

BTW, still waiting for that link to your deported Mexicans get new identities thingy...

Older article:    More caught at border with other people's documents

More recent article:    Fraudulent ID busts down at border ports of entry

So, yes, people are using fake ID to enter the US.  For an individual jumping the border to evade Mexican police the objective is not necessarily to remain in the US.  But they will be returned to Mexico under the fake ID, there won't be an effort to identify the individuals.  Most of the reporting is about obtaining fake IDs for use inside the US.  Here's a Google search (since that is a difficult thing to do):

entry to US with fake ID

Next whine?

If you look them up, I wall and fence are synonyms of each other so yes a fence is a wall and a wall is a fence.

Utterly irrelevant links. Perhaps after avoiding it for so long, you forgot what you claimed. 

They'll be deported with a new identity; all duly recorded by INS.  It's an easy way to evade Mexican law enforcement.

None of your irrelevant links support that ridiculous claim Try harder. 

WALL is NOT a synonym for FENCE. 

Yes it is! Here is a list of synonyms copied from Thesaurus.com.

@realDonaldTrump
Follow @realDonaldTrump

Lets just call them WALLS from now on and stop playing political games! A WALL is a WALL!

4:16 AM - 31 Jan 2019

Who ya gonna believe, Trump or your lyin' eyes? 

Come on just admit your wrong! 

As for your quote, all he is asking for is that the de quit playing word games and we all call it us]ng the same word. 

Come on just admit your wrong! 

But I'm NOT. You can use all of the 'synonyms' that you want but the CBP and DHS do NOT. They make it clear that a WALL is not a FENCE and a FENCE is not a WALL. Even with Trump causing the CBP to tap dance around definitions, they STILL admit that NO WALL exists on the border. 

cbp

What types of border wall exists along the Southwest border. 

The current types of border barrier along the Southwest border include picket fence, concrete levee wall with steel bollards, floating fences, steel bollards, vehicle bollards, and “Normandy” barriers.

Note that the CBP uses the term 'wall' ONLY for concrete levee installations and those are topped by steel bollards. 

CBP also admits that NO WALL is in the works now. 

cbp

The design includes a reinforced concrete levee wall system to the approximate height of the existing levee with 18-foot tall steel bollards installed on the top of the levee wall system. Regarding the approximately 8 to 12 miles of border wall system in Starr County, the design includes 18-foot tall steel bollards

Steel bollard 'barriers' are NOT walls and the CBP makes that clear in it's own documentation. The CBP's own documentation states that the construction that has happened since Jan. 2017 and the construction planned for 2019 are of the same design that was constructed before Trump took office. 

Note that the link I provided for the CBP BWS, FAQ states the following:

In 2007, a number of low-cost solutions were tested as part of the Fence Lab project. This project was implemented to determine which barrier designs could best meet U.S. Border Patrol’s operational requirements and be deployed rapidly along the Southwest border. Rapid deployment, the estimated cost of construction and repair, and the ability to withstand severe impacts and disable vehicles were just a few of the criteria that went into the evaluation of the proposed solutions at Fence Lab. Additional prototypes were developed and tested in 2017 to replace and close gaps in the legacy fence. While none of the prototypes tested in 2017 met all of CBP’s operational requirements, they provided valuable data to assist CBP in selecting design elements that could be used on border wall designs in the future.

So based on the CBP's own documents, they STILL have NO decision on WTF they want to build on the Southern Border, but it sure as hell isn't a 'WALL'.

One more note about the first link that I provided for the CBP presentation is dated October 30, 2018 but is entitled 'Fiscal Year 2018 Rio Grande Valley Levee/Border Wall System Construction Projects'. That proves that a month into FY 2019 , the CBP has yet to get it's shit together for FY 2018 construction spending. In fact is states in the document: 

Please include “FY18 RGV Border Construction Projects” in the title of your email.

---

As for your quote, all he is asking for is that the de quit playing word games and we all call it us]ng the same word.

Exactly!

insider.foxnews The president-elect first corrected the reporter, who referred to it as a "border fence."
"On the fence. It's not a fence, it's a wall. You just misreported it." 

So it's NOT a FENCE, it's a WALL. 

But I'm NOT.

So the Thesaurus, Merriam Webster and the other publications defining and classifying words in the English Language are wrong so you can bash Trump. Fascinating 

So the Thesaurus, Merriam Webster and the other publications defining and classifying words in the English Language are wrong so you can bash Trump.

I didn't say they were 'wrong' I PROVED how the Federal Government interprets the MEANING of the terms. I hope that we can agree that how the CBP and DHS interpret the MEANINGS is what is relevant for the purposes of the topic of this discussion. 

Oh and of course, Trump's interpretation of the terms, which is: 

"On the fence. It's not a fence, it's a wall." and "A WALL IS A WALL". 

Fascinating 

Glad you thought so. 

When did the federal government and specifically the CBP and DHS become the end all for definitions of words in the English language. 

When did the federal government and specifically the CBP and DHS become the end all for definitions of words in the English language. 

When their definitions are used as the standard for regulations, contracts, appropriations and policy. You know that the Federal government defines words in legislation and regulations all the time right? 

Just reread your comment and I noticed you were wrong again. In neither case does the mentioned in agency actually define what a war is. The quotes just say they are building a wall and 

Huh? 

Nowhere in any of you quotes does any of the agencies mentioned define what a wall or a fence is. The just say that a barrier (another synonym for both wall and fence) is to be built. They just use the word "wall" or "fence" to describe it. 

Federal data illustrates just how remarkable the turnaround in crime has been since the fence was built. According to FBI tables,  property crimes in El Paso have plunged more than 37 percent   to 12,357 from their pre-fence peak of 19,702 a year, while  violent crimes have dropped more than 6 percent  to 2,682 from a peak of 2,861 a year.