Florida Sixth-Grader Arrested After His Refusal to Recite Pledge of Allegiance Led to Confrontation
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Florida sixth-grader charged with misdemeanor after refusing to recite Pledge of Allegiance
By Kristine Phillips, The Washington Post, February 17 2019
A Florida student is facing misdemeanor charges after a confrontation with his teacher that began with his refusal to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and escalated into what officials described as disruptive behavior.
The student, a sixth-grader at Lawton Chiles Middle Academy in Lakeland, Fla., east of Tampa, refused to stand for the pledge, telling the teacher that he thinks the flag and the national anthem are “racist” against black people, according to an affidavit. The teacher then had what appeared to be a contentious exchange with him.
If living in the United States is “so bad,” why not go to another place to live? Ana Alvarez, who was substituting at the school, asked the student, according to a handwritten statement from her.
“They brought me here,” the boy replied.
Alvarez responded by saying, “Well you can always go back, because I came here from Cuba, and the day I feel I’m not welcome here anymore, I would find another place to live.” She then called the district office because she did not want to keep dealing with the student, according to the statement.
Officials said the situation escalated. The student yelled at the dean and a school resource officer who came to the classroom, accused them of being racist and repeatedly refused to leave the room.
[ Houston teen says she was expelled for not standing for Pledge of Allegiance ]
“Suspend me! I don’t care. This school is racist,” the student, who is black, told the dean as he walked out of the room with his backpack, according to the affidavit.
The student was later charged with disruption of a school facility and resisting an officer without violence.
The Lakeland Police Department said in a news release that the student was not arrested for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
“This arrest was based on the student’s choice to disrupt the classroom, make threats and resisting the officer’s efforts to leave the classroom,” the release said.
The 11-year-old’s mother, Dhakira Talbot, was not immediately available for comment Sunday, but she told Bay News 9 that the teacher was wrong and that the school overstepped its authority by punishing her son, who was taken to a juvenile detention center and was suspended for three days after the Feb. 4 incident.
“I’m upset, I’m angry. I’m hurt. More so for my son. My son has never been through anything like this. I feel like this should’ve been handled differently. If any disciplinary action should’ve been taken, it should’ve been with the school. He shouldn’t have been arrested,” Talbot told the TV station, adding that she thought the charges should be dropped and that the school should be held accountable for its handling of the situation.
The affidavit stated that the student threatened to beat the teacher, but Talbot told Bay News 9 that her son did no such thing.
Polk County Public Schools spokesman Kyle Kennedy did not respond to requests for comment Sunday. He told the Ledger that students are not required to participate in the pledge. In fact, the Supreme Court ruled in 1943 in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that schools cannot require students to salute the flag or recite the pledge, citing First Amendment rights.
But Alvarez was not aware that the school does not require students to recite the pledge, the Ledger reported. Kennedy added that officials will look at improving training for substitute teachers and that Alvarez no longer works in the district.
The Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem have been sources of tension after critics, including President Trump, denounced former San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick for taking a knee during the anthem, an act to protest racial injustice and police brutality. But many followed Kaepernick’s lead and defended his right to free speech and to protest.
In 2017, a black student was expelled from her Houston high school for refusing to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. India Landry’s silent protest prompted a long legal battle in federal court, with the teen’s family accusing the school of violating her free-speech rights. Last year, the Texas attorney general intervened and defended a state law requiring students to recite the pledge.
Cleve R. Wootson and Alex Horton contributed to this report.
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His role models must be the NFL players who took to their knees during the anthem. After all, America is the "Land of the Free"....
Arrested? An 11 year old?
There are valid positions on both sides of the "knee" debate being taken by American citizens how they choose to honor their country, but it's up to each and every one of us who lives here and we're free to make that choice, something those in China don't really have. I'm not sure how one can speak of how Americans show their patriotism or choose their role models when one is neither citizen nor resident of this country.
I'm pleased that America's laws and principles do not bar me from voicing my opinions about your country. I would expect you would feel no different. And actually I DO agree that there are valid positions on both sides of the issue, and of course we are all free to chose which we prefer, due to the fact that we may consider one position more valid than another. The fact that I'm neither a citizen nor a resident (although for a number of years I owned property in the USA) and over my lifetime spent a fair amount of time travelling in many American States and cities gives me at least some knowledge of America, but also, in my opinion, a modicum of objectivity perhaps a little more than a resident or citizen.
Traveling the US does not give anyone a real insight as to what it means to have been born here, raised here, and developed each individuals personal feeling of patriotism. And even though I was born and raised here, I didn't grow up as a young black man so I can't really judge this young mans patriotism, and I didn't grow up a Cuban American as it appears the substitute teacher did, so I don't question her feelings on the matter either, she's welcome to have them. What I can say is that the teacher was totally in the wrong to force her patriotism and political views on a young man who didn't share her sentiments and he had every right as an American citizen to sit quietly and not participate during the flag salute. She was the one who chose to escalate this, chose to tell him to get out of America if he wasn't feeling patriotic enough to stand for the salute.
There were a couple JW's who went to my school and they would stand but not participate, no hand on heart, no salute. Other kids used to tease and bully them for it but even back then it was well established it was their right. So that part of this shouldn't even be in debate, of course.
You brought up another case where American citizens are effectively being forced to participate in an act of patriotism when they don't feel like expressing their patriotism. Only in authoritarian or communist countries are people compelled against their will to public acts of patriotism.
Never should have happened. This is settled law, and has been for decades. He does not have to say the Pledge.
He was not arrested for refusing to recite the pledge.
We have yet another example of ridiculously irresponsible misleading journalism.
He doesn't have to say the pledge. He's still not allowed to be verbally abusive or refuse to comply with other requests.
The teacher shouldn't have made such a big deal of it. When the student refused to stand for the pledge the teacher should have let it go instead of trying to force him to do it. It's his right to refuse the pledge and telling him to move back to Africa is racist.
Probably not. But we're talking about a substitute teacher, so that's probably not at the top of the "things she shouldn't have done today" list.
The article doesn't say she attempted to force him. It says she got into an argument about his ideology. What she should have understood was that....he's in the 6th grade....he's not old enough to have his own ideology...he's just parroting what he's seen around him.
That's a stretch. It's a bit stupid, yes. He's 11. How is he going to move to Orlando much less emigrate to Nigeria?
The other factors involved in this would be that he is an 11-year-old boy with a female substitute teacher in the class. That generally means it's boundary-pushing time, but boys that age aren't generally smart enough to quit before it goes horribly wrong.
I agree. The teacher, however, should absolutely be smart enough to quit before it goes horribly wrong.
Substitute teachers do not get the same amount of respect from the students. It was a power struggle from word one.
Totally.
But again....we're talking about a sub.....
When I taught, I always hated having subs in the building. I would rather them just take the class and divide the kids up among other regular teachers for the day. It's much easier to deal with 6 extra kids in my class than an out of control circus in the classroom next door.
As a sub for many years, I always brought extra materials with me, because many teachers didn't provide adequate lesson plans. Some even locked their supply closets and desks and didn't leave their keys in the office. I couldn't access paper and other supplies the students needed. Others even hid their class lists and emergency exit plans.
During the years I subbed, my gross pay was a crappy $70/per day which equaled 7 hours of work. Don't belittle substitute teachers. Some of us are very educated and actually DO care about education and don't do it for the money.
I know he wasn't arrested for not saying the Pledge.
The teacher should have let it go.
And yes, I know she was a sub. At the very least, she should have been aware of school policies regarding class routines, and she should have had the wisdom not to make the remarks she did.
She seems to want to import authoritarianism. No, thanks. Glad she's gone.
Also, I think criminalizing tween defiance is a bit much, but I understand that schools are limited in regards to their disciplinary options.
You're right, Jack, he should have "submitted" and not stood up for his rights. I didn't think that was the "American Way" but I guess I was wrong.
If this is about racism or the right to protest, why wait until a sub is in the room to express that?
If it's about racism or the right to protest, why refuse to leave the room? Why become verbally abusive?
I've spent nearly 30 years coaching kids. This looks very much like a prank gone wrong.
Sure. But she's a sub, so temper your expectations accordingly.
Why would you think that? Why would you think that a person who would go to that effort would be substitute teaching during a period of 3.x% unemployment?
She misread the situation. She attempted to engage an 11-12 year old boy in a philosophical discussion that does not involve Fortnite.
Depends on the level of defiance, but yes, you are correct about the paucity of available options.
It's not always possible. The flu doesn't always email a meeting invite ahead of time.
Why do you suppose that was?
Very true. And those subs usually had a waiting list. The majority of them, however, were/are not at that standard, and I think you know that.
His regular teachers most likely never reacted to his refusal, or maybe even had a classroom discussion because of it, about individual rights.
Maybe he did not want to submit to being told to leave the room because he knew he was right and should not be punished for it. Who was abusive first? If he was replying to being told he should go back to his own country I would not have blamed him for reacting to that.
What's right for an American? Standing up for your rights or "Submission"? In my opinion, neither he nor the teacher may have used common sense in this situation, but then he's an 11 year old, and she's an adult.
Most of the people I know who work as subs don't do it because they need the money. They're retired teachers who agree to help out when needed, or moms who volunteer at the schools so much that the administrators ask them to make themselves available as subs.
From the article:
So who was being abusive, the student, or the teacher? The teacher should have just kept their mouth shut and let it be, but no, the teacher had to egg it on. She did not want to deal with a situation that she escalated. How convenient.
But see, that involved an older Indian fellow and this just involves a teacher.
But it is interesting to see the double standards people are using--quick to blame the white kid for "smirking" while making excuses for this kid.
Heck, this isn't a big deal--just some kid showing off for his friends because they had a sub teacher that day.
Actually, no, I don't. And I was in school in the 60's and early 70's. And that isn't the way I raised my daughter either. She quit teaching because the system allows this type of goose stepping approach to education.
He was referring to the "smirking kid" the media lambasted because of his "confrontation" with an Indian man in DC a few weeks ago.
No, who?
In that interchange, neither. But we don't have the whole transcript of everything that was said.
Sure. Yes.
But as we've discussed at length....she's a sub. She has slightly more skills than a sweater folder at Walmart.
Even as subs go, she's a bit of an idiot. She actually suggested this kid.....who can't go to the bathroom without a hall pass....should emigrate to wherever he felt like was the original location from which he was "brought".
So I'm not sure what your expectations are of this person, but I submit they may need to be adjusted.
I didn't really think of him as smirking. Actually rather reminded me of Logano facing down Harvick.
Bizarre to say the least...The kid doesn't have to say the Pledge and then they arrest him...
Seems to be the school that is out of control not the kid.
BTW, the teachers comments were a couple of steps beyond stupid.
Just who is the adult in the room?
E.
No surprise the police had to provide justification for the arrest. even if it may not have accurately refer to the cause - a kid acting more adult than the adult by standing up for his rights. Between the kid and the adult, just who WAS right?
Neither.
As they say, two wrongs do not make a right.
Ever seen videos of cops pummeling someone who is on the ground and yelling, "Stop resisting."? Why should I trust cops to tell the truth?
Are you really that jaded?
Do you trust any women because one might have lied to you? Or men? or kids?
If enough men, women, or kids had lied to me as many cops have and as many films of cops I've seen, I probably wouldn't trust them. But then again, I haven't had that many lie to me. Hell, I've had the FBI lie to me. Don't trust them much either.
I hope they pull the teachers credentials and is never allowed in another classroom.
She's a substitute. She has no credentials.
In my current state of WI and my home state of MN all teachers have to licenced. That includes Subs. I see you are correct and only need a High School diploma in FL. Perhaps FL needs to think about changing their requirements?
There is a supply and demand issue.
Why would anybody want to be a teacher these days? Low pay, long hours, homework, and politicians vilify them whenever they want to steal the funding from the school districts. Mrs. Gee taught school for 25 years. She's enjoying retirement now.
My daughter is a teacher. She's 24, makes well over $50k/yr, and owns her own home.
A two-teacher family in most areas of Dallas makes over $100k/yr starting out. That's fresh out of college. It's more if you coach or teach summer school.
People have the idea that teachers are poorly paid, but that's not always the case.
Substitute teaching is a totally shit job, as you probably know if your wife taught. Plus, with the economy at more than full employment, it's not like there are a lot of people sitting around looking for potentially part time work.
In many states, all one needs to qualify as a substitute teacher is 60 college credits and a federal background check. I subbed for many years in public and private schools and have college degrees to boot.
So... 50k is good money for someone with a masters degree in Texas?
It can be a good starting wage depending on the area.
Not all teachers with masters degrees need to make 180k like the highly qualified street turd washers in San Francisco.
Texas, like most states, does not require a graduate degree to teach below the collegiate level.
For a young graduate just starting out, yes, it's a very good living. Keep in mind, in many very nice Dallas suburbs, houses run about $150/sf.
But it's a very good living anyway. My son's former baseball coach teaches history and is married to the ESOL teacher. He's been teaching 28 years, and with his coaching stipend he makes about $75k. She makes about $65k. So you're talking about $140k household income, and they work 187 days/yr.
Median household income in the US is less than $60k, and most people work 240-250 days/yr.
That doesn't mention the retirement benefits, which are 1000 miles better than Social Security.
That's in Dallas, TX where I imagine the schools are pretty decent and they can get good teachers.
Teachers can't make that kind of salary in Podunk, Arkansas
Maybe rent isn't as high but if you want groceries you have to go 20 miles or more out of your way to get to a Kroger or Walmart if you don't want to have to rely on the small grocery store in your podunk town.
Every time you need something it's not just a 2-3 mile trip in your car.
Some people just know everything there is to know about everything
And have probably never lived in a podunk town 20 miles from the nearest doctor or real grocery store
Each district is different but it’s not unusual for the value of health and welfare bennies for teachers to be 25-35% of wage. So that 140k costs taxpayers closer to 180k.
Few people really appreciate what bennies cost since they don’t go straight their pockets but it’s what it costs the people paying for it.
The taxpayers.
you still don't get it and I don't expect you ever will, City Boy
Substitute teachers make about $100-$125 a day with no benefits, on Long Island and you need to be fully licensed and have a masters. I used to sub, before I went back to accounting because it just didn't pay, literally.
A truly thankless job in more than one way.
How do they find subs?
They are struggling to find teachers. Everybody is struggling to find employees. The US economy is past full employment.
It's interesting you mention Arkansas. Fayetteville starts their teachers at $45k. Relative to the cost of living, they may be making more than folks in Dallas.
There are no benefits for substitute teachers.
Fayetteville is a medium sized city with a university. I'm talking about schools like what is found in St Joe, Arkansas. And there are lots of towns the size of St Joe and smaller
Tell me about it. After teaching for over 20 years, due to not being able to work full time, I thought I would try being a sub. The kids are nasty, the teachers leave you unprepared, I had to come in with my own materials to make sure they were engaged.. and all that and I get paid less than if I worked in Lord and Taylors. Imagine how bad it must have been for me to go back into accounting, LOL!
For well over a century, Americans have been faced with the choice of staying in rural areas with small economies or moving to cities to participate in large economies. I can't imagine a reason teaching should be any different than any other profession in that regard.
So......people should be punished because they choose to live in a rural area?
Or....in a non-drama real world scenario....people should accept the pros and cons of any decision they make.
Unless you're part of the landed aristocracy that owns most of the place, small towns = lower pay. Why should that be different for teachers?
The student doesn't have to say the pledge; but also does not have the right to call everyone racists and disrupt the classroom. He elevated a situation that could have been avoided with simple compliance of the teacher's request he depart the classroom. He should have let the school administration handle the teacher.
I am sure I will now be labeled a racist for stating such.
The teacher also escalated the situation. As the adult (supposedly), it was her job to just let him sit it out and keep her opinion to herself.
She didn't know the rules- which is on her, the school board, and the system. She is not longer teaching in that district as per the article, so she has been disciplined.
Again, the student should have left the classroom and let administration deal with it. Instead all he did was get himself into trouble.
She's a sub.
He's eleven. Most 11-year-olds struggle with impulse control to some degree.
It's just she made a couple of classic mistakes, arguing with a 11-yr-old like he was old enough to be swayed by logic, and arguing with a 11-yr-old at all. I'm proud of her self-control for not kicking his scrawny little butt up between his shoulder blades which no doubt crossed her mind. Those of you with children know this feeling.
Maybe the kid was the class clown or the class cluck and saw this is a way to get some yuks out of his classmates at her expense, or maybe her didn't cotton to her for some reason.
He has a right not to say the pledge of allegiance, but no rights to disturb the kids that did want to say it or disrupt other classes.
Cruel as it may sound, I'm not upset the police hauled him off even though they couldn't hold him, in hopes he learned a valuable lesson out of it which is:
ALL actions have consequences.
Some so-called adults could stand to figure that out too.
I agree with that.
I'm not sure, though, that there would have been any disruption at all if she hadn't just ignored the fact that he didn't say or stand for the Pledge. She threw fuel on the fire, and I think that actually showed a lack of self-control.
Did he? Or did the teacher for calling him out and making it an issue to start with?
You raving racist.
Anyone can see that this teacher should have immediately put all the student desks in a circle so they could talk about their feelings.
While I agree the school sould gave handled this better, it also sounds like a large part of the youngster's problems may lie with the parenting of his mother. Sounds like a case of blame everybody else, but not me or my baby..
Mommy and Daddy must be proud of the little bigot they've raised.
I'm confused. Kneeling at a football game, anti-American. No flag pin, anti-American. Don't stand for pledge, anti-American. Compromised and cowed by our most power adversary, nothing to see here.
I'm not buying the fake outrage over a kid and whether he stands for the pledge. The adults screwed it up, FFS. Why would an 11 year old be expected to be the adult in the room?
Read the article.
He wouldn't and you know what?
And this is a shocker ..... he wasn't.
The original WaPo article's headline is highly misleading:
as is the (different) headline we see on this seed:
The article clearly states that the student's failure to stand up for or recite the Pledge of Allegiance was not the issue:
Amazing what happens when someone reads the WHOLE article and not just the headlines, huh?
Tougher to spew self righteous indignation's with the truth like that but by golly ..... many try like hell to do it regardless.
Pretty soon we'll likely be calling this practice a "Smollett."
An 11 year old made threats? Such threats are considered by adults to cause them to tremble in fear? Where the hell was this - in the USA? And there was no provocation?
If you don't think an 11-year old boy is capable of beating the shit out of a grown woman, you have never coached 11-year-old boys.
The article does not say what threats were made. You have zero idea what provocation may or may not have transpired.
Buzz, it sounds to me like this kid was showing off for his friends because they had a substitute teacher that day.
Come on, we all went to school and know that certain kids always pressed subs to see what they could get away with.
I agree the teacher could and should have handled it better, but when the kid refused to leave the classroom, he was out of line.
Well, if they said "Student arrested for disrupting class" people wouldn't have read it unless it was in the school paper if they had one.
Child dares not to stand or pledge allegiance in Trump's America? Maybe his family should be deported. First Amendment be damned. America is now MAGA.
s/
Oh, FFS.
This incident doesn't have one damn thing to do with Trump.
Try to control that TDS better.
Yes it does. TDS is fake, just like it's source.
Da Nile runs deep in your neck of the woods .....
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How exactly?
Death sentence!
They shouldn't even bother with the pledge in the first place. Forced displays of loyalty to a government automatically reduce that governments legitimacy. If the kid doesn't want to say it, fine, he doesn't have to say it.
Do you honestly feel that the U.S. Government lost any legitimacy during the 1940's and 1950's or at any time prior to that?
If it was forced, then yes.
In what way?
Again, if a pledge of loyalty of allegiance is forced, the government in question is not deserving. If it is deserving the pledge will be given voluntarily.
Sounds to me like she has been soundly and completely indoctrinated in the latest Democrat ideology, or is that victimology.......
I remember my son having to learn the hard way that you don't sas the police..... She was arrested Good!
The teacher has been bounced from the school district, Good! you would think that a teacher (on any level) should have been able to handle it....
Bad acts all round, good results all round, why is this even an issue?
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Swing and a miss with that one NM. To this day this liberal sill can't get through the Star Spangled Banner without his eyes tearing up!
Regards
But then your not a media shill looking for hits are you?
Likewise my friend....
Well raise my rent! I though you lumped us all together you crotchety old bastard..... I see there is now hope for the world!
That, or I need to send someone over to your basement to check for pods!!!!!!
Same here, Fly. Why do people just assume that liberals don't ever serve in the military? I could name some conservatives on here that never wore a uniform and they think they're more patriotic than I am simply because of my liberal views
You mean 90% of them? But to hear them tell it, they are the second coming of John Basilone. And yes, I know that name because it was hammered into me in boot, the dude was a badass in purest sense of the word.
None of them have the balls......
(much less the personal integrity)
Don't waste your time, I went ahead and did my Ripley with a flame thrower impression....
Basement needed a bit of fixin, but it's all good now... {chuckle}
Almost none of us have the balls to even ATTEMPT what that guy DID. I honestly wish I could know what was going through his mind when he earned his MOH and when he died earning his Navy Cross. Pretty much to know how much of a pussy I am compared to him.
He must be a Marine since I never heard of him. I was Air Force
Hah, no hard feelings, look him up. He is a legend for Marines. His shit at Guadalcanal was insane.
I will. Thanks!
I will say though, of all the branches, the Marines are trained to be fanatics. I clearly recall one of my DIs during the crucible telling us that "if you run out of ammo, use your weapon" "if you lose your weapon, use your knife", "if you lose your knife, use your hands and feet," "and if you lose those, you better be biting mother fuckers as they run by." Essentially, you will fight to the death. That was further enforced in the fleet, Marines DO NOT RETREAT.
You guys are the toughest, there's no doubt about that.
I just wiki'd Basilone. He was definitely a hero
Shit when I was doing our final uniform inspection in boot (we had been standing out on an asphalt lot for 3 hours in our dark green, thick ass Alpha uniforms, at the end of summer in San Diego) I kinda fell asleep at parade rest (3 hours is a long fucking time to be consciously standing there). Next thing I know a Msgt and Maj. are standing in front of me for a uniform and weapon inspection. I do the weapon movements and rattle off my name and mos as a reaction. The Msgt looks and me and says "infantry huh" I say "yes sir" he says "are you willing to kill for your country" my immediate resposne was "yes sir", and his last question was "and die if you have to?". I paused, thought about it, and responded "yes sir." He returned my weapon to me and declared my weapon condition to be excellent (he never even looked at it). That was a sobering moment for me.
Nicely done....! "Never settle with words that which should be settled with a flame thrower."
Take care!
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[NWM,]
[I'm fine with you calling me sweeties but many of the women here find it condescending. Please don't use it unless you know it's OK.]
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Not really, when I was at the WH, a Msgt once told me that they (marines in general and the WH detail specifically) were special pigs, they didn't rate equality....
I though he was joking....
He said it comes with the job.....
Yeah, they are different. I had a friend of mine, a Corporal that I served with in my last tour, ended up being accepted and sent to the president's helo squadron (the guy standing outside the helo). He was excited when he went, hated it after a couple months lol. Hard to go from Iraq where if you don't shave for a week or so no one says anything, to a unit where if you miss a hair you get your ass chewed. But he did say that they really don't answer to the normal chain of command, they are kinda their own thing.
Oh well, I'll try.......
Most of the ladies I respond to have no problem with it, and those that don't are usually woman enough to request I don't use that appellation with them themselves.....
But any way I WILL try....
My comments were deleted too for some reason. Pretty sure I didn't even shit talk anyone that time.
See what I mean about the censorship here?
Well, basically it was a reaction to being trolled and returning the favor on my part. I called it out. If it was a CoC for me, it was a CoC for the originator also irrespective of board status. From there it opened up a thread that really wasn't trolling but was way off topic.
And yeah they may have went a little overboard, but they were trying to eliminate all reference to it altogether.......
Sending a message in their own way...... As was I....
But other than that it's been good.....
But I do agree with the overall point of your comment. (but we are skirting meta here so we had probably end it before it goes farther)
FUCK THE META!!!!
Much as I always disagree with you, we are on the same side here.
It is odd.
Finally a post that makes some sense.
Wow! So much purple ink. I guess I need to lock this seed when I go to sleep.