House Democrats try to force schools to allow boys to compete in girls’ sports

  
Via:  gooseisgone  •  2 months ago  •  209 comments

House Democrats try to force schools to allow boys to compete in girls’ sports
“Opponents of equality in athletics for transgender athletes have argued that girls who are transgender have unfair physiological advantages over cisgender girls and as a result, will dominate women’s competitive sports,”

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Every House Democrat but one has co-sponsored a bill requiring schools to allow male athletes who identify as transgender girls to compete on female sports teams.

Democrats’ Equality Act would amend the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to make “sexual orientation and gender identity” protected characteristics under federal anti-discrimination law. Among other things, the bill would force public schools to expand female athletic teams to include biological males who identify as transgender girls.

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gooseisgone
1  seeder  gooseisgone    2 months ago

Another example of how out of touch the Democrats are with the rest of the country.

 
 
 
KDMichigan
1.1  KDMichigan  replied to  gooseisgone @1    2 months ago

WTF Where are all the talking heads defending this? The house democrats must not have put out talking points yet, stay tuned. 

 
 
 
Don Overton
1.2  Don Overton  replied to  gooseisgone @1    2 months ago

More like how out of touch the GOP has really become

 
 
 
gooseisgone
1.2.1  seeder  gooseisgone  replied to  Don Overton @1.2    2 months ago

Yeah right Don...the stand up for women democrats until another one of the democrat's covetted groups thats more importamt gets involved.  So its the LBGQTXYZ, then women in the democrat pecking order or are you silly enough to say boys who identify as girls don't have an advantage.

 
 
 
Willjay9
1.3  Willjay9  replied to  gooseisgone @1    2 months ago

Ok....can you show me a "girls sport"?

 
 
 
gooseisgone
1.3.1  seeder  gooseisgone  replied to  Willjay9 @1.3    2 months ago
can you show me a "girls sport"?

What the $#*?(! are you talking about?

 
 
 
Freedom Warrior
1.4  Freedom Warrior  replied to  gooseisgone @1    2 months ago

Ask them to eliminate Title IX and see how quickly they default into hypocrisy mode.

 
 
 
Transyferous Rex
1.4.1  Transyferous Rex  replied to  Freedom Warrior @1.4    2 months ago

Right?

Coming to schools near you:

Women's Basketball a/k/a Men's JV

 
 
 
It Is ME
2  It Is ME    2 months ago

If you can't beat the "Boys", the Democrats will put you where you "Deserve" to be !

So much for "Women's Rights" !

 
 
 
Don Overton
2.1  Don Overton  replied to  It Is ME @2    2 months ago

what a lying set of comments and such a sweeping generalization 

 
 
 
It Is ME
2.1.1  It Is ME  replied to  Don Overton @2.1    2 months ago
what a lying set of comments

Which part ?

 
 
 
luther28
3  luther28    2 months ago

We may actually have managed to transcend absurd.

 
 
 
WallyW
3.1  WallyW  replied to  luther28 @3    2 months ago

Why does the left hate women so much?

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.1  epistte  replied to  WallyW @3.1    2 months ago
Why does the left hate women so much?

I can play the same emotional game. Why do you hate trans' teens?

Not all transgendered people are male to female.  If the person is on HRT for 6 months then there should not be a problem.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
3.1.2  Cerenkov  replied to  epistte @3.1.1    2 months ago

Why? Is HRT going to shrink their bones?

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
3.1.3  XXJefferson#51  replied to  WallyW @3.1    2 months ago

Well they want to put those boys in the girls shower and locker rooms too.  

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.4  epistte  replied to  Cerenkov @3.1.2    2 months ago
Why? Is HRT going to shrink their bones?

Estrogen causes muscle tissue to atrophy and they gain fat tissue. 

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.5  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson#51 @3.1.3    2 months ago
Well they want to put those boys in the girls shower and locker rooms too.  

If they are trans' then they are no more of a threat to a CIS classmate than a lesbian classmate is.  You don't understand what a transgendered person is so you think that they are male with usual male sex drives just because they have a penis.   Your ignorance is your biggest obstacle. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
3.1.6  Greg Jones  replied to  epistte @3.1.5    2 months ago

If they haven't had the operation and are not on hormones, they're still a "he".

Bruce Jenner being the most obvious example.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.7  epistte  replied to  Greg Jones @3.1.6    2 months ago
If they haven't had the operation and are not on hormones, they're still a "he". Bruce Jenner being the most obvious example.

6 months on effective hormones is enough to eliminate any hormonal difference between male or female. 

Caitlyn has been on hormones for more than a decade.

It appears that she has had gender confirmation surgery,

She was later linked to transgender actress Candis Cayne, with the pair reportedly spotted snogging at a salon (claims Cait denied) before the so-called 'Final Surgery' to remove her penis took place in 2017. “The surgery was a success, and I feel not only wonderful but liberated," she wrote, insisting the body part was 'just a penis' that was of no 'use'.
 
 
 
Don Overton
3.1.8  Don Overton  replied to  WallyW @3.1    2 months ago

Why do republicans hate America so much

 
 
 
Don Overton
3.1.9  Don Overton  replied to  XXJefferson#51 @3.1.3    2 months ago

Wow they want to go where you always dreamed

 
 
 
Cerenkov
3.1.10  Cerenkov  replied to  epistte @3.1.4    2 months ago

Bones. I asked about bones. Please take your deflection elsewhere. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
3.1.11  Cerenkov  replied to  epistte @3.1.4    2 months ago

Translation. You've got nothing. 

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.12  epistte  replied to  Cerenkov @3.1.11    2 months ago
Translation. You've got nothing. 

 You do not have a rational argument.

The length of a bone is irrelevant to a person's athletic performance. It's the muscle tissue that makes a person move. 

Stephen Hawking had normal bones but his muscles didn't work because of the ALS. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
3.1.13  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @3.1.4    2 months ago
Estrogen causes muscle tissue to atrophy and they gain fat tissue.

It doesn't make them shorter.  

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.14  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.13    2 months ago
It doesn't make them shorter.

How is their height relevant if they don't have the necessary muscle mass?   Is every tall female necessarily a good athlete?  

 
 
 
Jack_TX
3.1.15  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @3.1.14    2 months ago
How is their height relevant if they don't have the necessary muscle mass?

They will still have muscle.  Just not as much.  But they don't need as much to make the girls' team.  6'2" isn't particularly tall for a boy's basketball team.  It's giant for a girl's team.

   Is every tall female necessarily a good athlete?

Tall people have huge advantages in many sports.  Even a medium sized boy is going to have huge advantages competing for a place on a girls' volleyball or basketball team based on height alone.

Boys who have played a sport as a boy are going to have experience anticipating and reacting to vastly increased pace and physicality of boys' sports.  Coaches who want to win are going to take those boys, at the expense of girls they will have to cut.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.16  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.15    2 months ago
They will still have muscle.  Just not as much.  But they don't need as much to make the girls' team.  6'2" isn't particularly tall for a boy's basketball team.  It's giant for a girl's team.

Did you also notice that the estrogen makes them add fatty tissue? After 6 months of hormones, they have lost their male sports drive and usually aren't very competitive. 

Tall people have huge advantages in many sports.  Even a medium sized boy is going to have huge advantages competing for a place on a girls' volleyball or basketball team based on height alone.

Boys who have played a sport as a boy are going to have experience anticipating and reacting to vastly increased pace and physicality of boys' sports.  Coaches who want to win are going to take those boys, at the expense of girls they will have to cut.

I'm 5-10 and I am clueless at sports.  I was decent at soccer in middle school. I was a recreational cyclist after high school but I was never competitive or wanted to be. 

What is it going to take for you to accept the fact that trans girls are not boys?  They are psychologically girls with the wrong physical body for their gender identity.  You and others are convinced that trans girls are the same as transvestites who like to play dress up.  Transvestites are psychologically male, unlike transgendered females. There are also transboys who play sports as male.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
3.1.17  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @3.1.16    2 months ago
Did you also notice that the estrogen makes them add fatty tissue?

Moderate amounts of fatty tissue is can be very helpful in contact sports like basketball or soccer.

Don't the girls playing those sports deal with the same fatty tissue issues?  If it's purely hormonal, I can't imagine it would be unique to boys in transition.

After 6 months of hormones, they have lost their male sports drive and usually aren't very competitive. 

I want you to get into a room with Hope Solo and use the phrase "male sports drive".  Do yourself a favor and dial 911 ahead of time.

The idea that women don't have a "sports drive" because of their hormones is among the craziest and most misogynistic things I've read in months.  That's something I would expect to hear Donald Trump say.  

I'm 5-10 and I am clueless at sports.

I don't doubt either half of that sentence.

What is it going to take for you to accept the fact that trans girls are not boys?

I don't think we're ever going to agree on that. 

They are psychologically girls with the wrong physical body for their gender identity. 

They have a condition that until very recently was considered a mental illness.  They have "feelings" that cause them to want to make drastic alterations to their bodies.  Every other such situation is considered a mental illness, but the transgender lobby was somehow able to attach themselves to the gay movement, so the term "mental illness" became politically untenable.  

You and others are convinced 

You are convinced you know what other people think.  Yet you continue to demonstrate how terrible you are at guessing it.

that trans girls are the same as transvestites who like to play dress up.

Not at all.  But I don't think "identifying" as something makes you that something.  If I wake up tomorrow and "identify" as Norwegian, that does not make me one.  

  Transvestites are psychologically male, unlike transgendered females. 

I understand what transvestites are, and I understand your beliefs about people with gender dysphoria.

There are also transboys who play sports as male.

There is a long history of women playing men's sports.  It used to be more common before Title IX, but it still happens.  Usually it pertains to football, for obvious reasons.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.18  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.17    2 months ago
I want you to get into a room with Hope Solo and use the phrase "male sports drive".  Do yourself a favor and dial 911 ahead of time. The idea that women don't have a "sports drive" because of their hormones is among the craziest and most misogynistic things I've read in months.  That's something I would expect to hear Donald Trump say.  

I didn't say that women don't have any sports drive. I said that most T-girls lose their sports drive or it is drastically reduced after 6 months on hormones.  

I don't think we're ever going to agree on that. 

There is no point in further discussion with you until you learn and embrace this fact. If trans girls were simply boys playing dress up or wanting a sports loopehole then they would not be transgendered.  The core concept of what makes a person transgendered is that their psychological gender identity is at odds with their biologial/physical gender. They are women in a male body or males in a female body in the case of transmen-boys.

I'd no more try to teach my cat quantum physics than to continue this conversation with a person who refuses to understand basic concepts of human sexuality.     Do you invest the time and effort to teach chemistry to a person who still believes in alchemy?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
3.1.19  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @3.1.18    2 months ago
I didn't say that women don't have any sports drive.

You used the term "male sports drive".  

I said that most T-girls lose their sports drive or it is drastically reduced after 6 months on hormones.

Then a rule prohibiting them from playing women's sports shouldn't be a problem. 

If hormones determine one's "sports drive", why do women want to play?  Here I was thinking that girls were every bit as competitive as boys.  But now you're telling me that estrogen destroys "sports drive".  How does that work, exactly?

There is no point in further discussion with you until you learn and embrace this fact.

By which you mean "someone doesn't agree with you and you don't know how to cope with that".

If trans girls were simply boys playing dress up or wanting a sports loopehole then they would not be transgendered.

Guessing at what people think again, and getting it wrong....again.  

  The core concept of what makes a person transgendered is that their psychological gender identity is at odds with their biologial/physical gender. They are women in a male body or males in a female body in the case of transmen-boys.

I realize you believe that.  I realize the psychological community has been bullied into supporting that.  And I don't seek to deny the right of people to transform their bodies in any way they see fit.

But gender dysphoria is first and foremost a mental situation where a person experiences feelings of emotional discomfort.  In every other case where a person seeks to dramatically alter or mutilate their body because of their "feelings", we call that a mental illness.

Under any other circumstances, taking hormones to alter your physique automatically disqualifies a person from competitive sports.

I'd no more try to teach my cat quantum physics than to continue this conversation with a person who refuses to understand basic concepts of human sexuality.  Do you invest the time and effort to teach chemistry to a person who still believes in alchemy?

You're back on that thing you do where you can't bear for someone to have a different opinion than you so you launch personal attacks.  It's actually quite predictable at this point.

But if what you say isn't complete bullshit, the hormones will make these boys not want to compete anyway, so the entire discussion is moot and we can keep the rules prohibiting the use of hormones and requiring boys to play on boys teams.  Problem solved.

 
 
 
gooseisgone
3.1.20  seeder  gooseisgone  replied to  epistte @3.1.1    2 months ago
Why do you hate trans' teens?

Has nothing to do with hating "trans teen" its boys competing with girls. 

If the person is on HRT for 6 months then there should not be a problem.

Maybe you should research this topic before you comment.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.21  epistte  replied to  gooseisgone @3.1.20    2 months ago
Has nothing to do with hating "trans teen" its boys competing with girls. 

What is your solution if you know so much more, Dr. Goose'?

Maybe you should research this topic before you comment.

I was assigned to write a 5000-word term paper on the subject in 1988.  To do so I had to befriend the gender community because there was very little scholarly information at that time.  I have maintained a few of those friendships.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.22  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.21    2 months ago
What is your solution if you know so much more, Dr. Goose'?

How about males play on male teams, and females play on female teams.

Seems pretty simple--I am surprised you hadn't thought of it.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.23  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.22    2 months ago
How about males play on male teams, and females play on female teams.

Did you forget that trans boys exist and they would now be competing against females, despite the fact that they have the testosterone level, muscles, and strength of a teen male?  Or would they play on boys teams too?

Seems pretty simple--I am surprised you hadn't thought of it.

Almost nothing in life is simple or binary. This is why details matter.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
3.1.24  Greg Jones  replied to  epistte @3.1.7    2 months ago

The ones we're talking about, and currently competing, appear to have had neither hormones nor surgery. Why can't trans just compete against other trans. Keeps the playing field level.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.25  epistte  replied to  Greg Jones @3.1.24    2 months ago
The ones we're talking about, and currently competing, appear to have had neither hormones nor surgery.

If they aren't on HRT then they should play on their birth gendered team. Those who are on effective doses of hormones compete on their identified gender team. Surgery doesn't change anything if they are taking the proper doses of hormones/androgen blockers to reduce their testosterone level to that of a natal female.  I assume that you support the state paying for gender correction surgery for those who are ready so as to not deny them the chance to compete, or would that be their problem in your scenario? 

Why can't trans just compete against other trans. Keeps the playing field level.

Would that make you feel better to single them out for abuse and discrimination? Your idea sounds suspiciously like another case of separate but equal, despite the fact that this idea has been struck down in the past.  Would you also like to go back to "whites-only" and colored high school sports teams or is that too obvious?

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.26  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.23    2 months ago

If they have a penis, or were born with one, then they should compete on a male team. If not born with a penis, play on a female team.

it isn't nearly as complicated as some would like us to believe.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.27  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.25    2 months ago
Would that make you feel better to single them out for abuse and discrimination? Your idea sounds suspiciously like another case of separate but equal, despite the fact that this idea has been struck down in the past. Would you als

Well, hell, lets just have everyone compete against each other regardless of sex or gender or what they want to be.

Let's see how long THAT would last before we are told that it simply isn't fair!

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.28  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.27    2 months ago
Well, hell, lets just have everyone compete against each other regardless of sex or gender or what they want to be.

The question is if the trans' person on an effective hormone dose for a sufficient length of time to lower their hormones to the natal level of their identified sex? Should we have used your same idea to oppose race-mixing 60 years ago?

Let's see how long THAT would last before we are told that it simply isn't fair!

Nobody is saying that there are not athletic differences between male and females, despite your attempt to argue that alternate and binary-only analogy.  

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.29  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.26    2 months ago
If they have a penis, or were born with one, then they should compete on a male team. If not born with a penis, play on a female team. it isn't nearly as complicated as some would like us to believe.

Did you forget that transgendered boys exist and they are just as strong as their male classmates because of their testosterone injections? They would now be playing against females.  I would not have wanted to compete for against a trans guy in gym class, despite the fact that they do not have a penis.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.30  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.29    2 months ago
Did you forget that transgendered boys exist and they are just as strong as their male classmates because of their testosterone injections? They would now be playing against females. I would not have wanted to compete for against a trans guy in gym class, despite the fact that they do not have a penis.

Um, what part of "if you were born with a penis. you compete on male teams, and if not born with one, you play on a female team" is so hard to understand?

Either they play as a member of what sex they were born as, or we just let everybody all play together-man, woman, whatever. Then I bet you'd be saying how all unfair the world is--making LBGQT and women compete equally against males.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.31  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.30    2 months ago
Either they play as a member of what sex they were born as, or we just let everybody all play together-man, woman, whatever. Then I bet you'd be saying how all unfair the world is--making LBGQT and women compete equally against males.

Trans boys are much stronger than a CIS female despite the fact that they were born with ovaries and a uterus. Massive testosterone injections will do that to a person.  In your scenario, they would be competing with CIS females.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.32  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.31    2 months ago
rans boys are much stronger than a CIS female despite the fact that they were born with ovaries and a uterus. Massive testosterone injections will do that to a person. In your scenario, they would be competing with CIS females.

Easy fix.

They can be competing EQUALLY with all.

What is wrong with having everyone regardless of sex or gender competing against one another?

That way, everyone has an equal opportunity. Couldn't be fairer.

 
 
 
Ender
3.1.33  Ender  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.32    2 months ago

There was an article a while back about a girl that was competing in wrestling. One boy said he would wrestle her because of his religious beliefs.

I think it was because she was on a winning streak and he didn't want to be beaten by a girl.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.34  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @3.1.33    2 months ago

I say once again, either let people born with a penis play on male teams, and those born without a penis play on female teams, or just let everyone compete against each other in every sport.

That way every person no matter what has an equal opportunity.

Sounds pretty fair to me.

 
 
 
Ender
3.1.35  Ender  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.34    2 months ago

I can agree to a point. A boy just wearing a dress is not really going through a change.

As E said above, once the hormones are being used a change does have an impact.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.36  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @3.1.35    2 months ago
As E said above, once the hormones are being used a change does have an impact.

Then everyone competing against each other sounds immensely fair to me.

That way, no questions other than performance-enhancing drugs to worry about.

And if all sports are open to all, no question about equal funding, either.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.37  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.36    2 months ago
Then everyone competing against each other sounds immensely fair to me.

That way, no questions other than performance-enhancing drugs to worry about.

And if all sports are open to all, no question about equal funding, either.

Why is this a problem for you to understand?  Is the fact that they exist offensive to you? 

The estrogen and androgen blockers level the field for trans girls to compete against CIS  girls, just as testosterone injections level the field so that trans male teens compete against teen boys. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.38  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.37    2 months ago
Why is this a problem for you to understand? Is the fact that they exist offensive to you?
The estrogen and androgen blockers level the field for trans girls to compete against CIS girls, just as testosterone injections level the field so that trans male teens compete against teen boys.

I understand it just fine.

What part of competing against everyone equally regardless of sex or gender is hard for you to understand?

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.39  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.37    2 months ago
The estrogen and androgen blockers level the field for trans girls to compete against CIS girls, just as testosterone injections level the field so that trans male teens compete against teen boys.

So at what level are they equal?

How much estrogen is necessary for it to be equal? 

How much testosterone is necessary for it to be equal?

For a male wanting to change and compete against females, is one treatment enough? 2?  3? 4? 5? 6?

How about for a female transitioning to a male? How much?

 
 
 
Goodtime Charlie
3.1.40  Goodtime Charlie  replied to  epistte @3.1.12    2 months ago
Stephen Hawking had normal bones but his muscles didn't work because of the ALS. 

His muscles didn't work because of ALS, but it didn't affect his brain he knew he was a man.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.41  epistte  replied to  Goodtime Charlie @3.1.40    2 months ago
Stephen Hawkins did think he was a woman, he had an exceptionally normal brain.

You missed the analogy that I was trying to make. His bones were normal but his muscles didn't work, so the bone length was irrelevant. The hormones change a transgendered person's muscle power. Bones by themselves are irrelevant to performance. It is the person's muscles that make a difference. 

 
 
 
Goodtime Charlie
3.1.42  Goodtime Charlie  replied to  Goodtime Charlie @3.1.40    2 months ago
Stephen Hawkins didn't * think he was a woman

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.43  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.39    2 months ago
For a male wanting to change and compete against females, is one treatment enough? 2?  3? 4? 5? 6?

They either take it orally daily or get injections weekly or monthly.  They also take androgen blockers that prevent their body from using the testosterone that their bodies produce. 

How about for a female transitioning to a male? How much?

They get injections weekly or monthly.

 The hormonal goal for the transgendered is to get it to normal CIS hormonal levels, so their bodies transition from their birth gender to their identified gender in a safe manner. 

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.44  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.38    2 months ago
What part of competing against everyone equally regardless of sex or gender is hard for you to understand?

How can a trans' female compete against natal males equally when they have no testosterone in their bodies?

Trans boys have male hormone levels and male strength, so it is just as unequal for a CIS female, despite the fact that they were born biologically female.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.45  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.43    2 months ago

So what is your proposal for people who transitioning or wanting to that haven't reached acceptable levels?

If everyone competes equally against each other, it is much more fair.

They are all human, after all.

Then it doesn't matter who has what, as long as no one is using performance enhancing drugs, of course.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
3.1.46  Jack_TX  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.26    2 months ago
If they have a penis, or were born with one, then they should compete on a male team. If not born with a penis, play on a female team. it isn't nearly as complicated as some would like us to believe.

The one addition would be that.....just like everybody else.....hormone use disqualifies people from competitive sports.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.47  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.45    2 months ago
So what is your proposal for people who transitioning or wanting to that haven't reached acceptable levels?

The hormones are the start of physical transitioning, after psychological testing and therapy.

Males and females are not the same athletically, but the administration of hormones changes that, despite your attempt to ignore that core idea and create a farce of a solution.

Why are you trying to have a discussion or a debate of a topic that you apparently have no knowledge of? Go annoy someone else or learn about this topic from a respected source.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.48  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.46    2 months ago
The one addition would be that.....just like everybody else.....hormone use disqualifies people from competitive sports.

Stop trying to be intellectually dishonest. That claim is only relevant if they are using the drugs to gain an unfair advantage with a normally healthy body.

A MtF trans girl taking estrogen to the level of a natal female is drastically reducing her physical performance.

A  FtM trans boy is taking the testosterone to give him parity with his natal male peers.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
3.1.49  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @3.1.48    2 months ago
Stop trying to be intellectually dishonest.

*eyeroll*

That claim is only relevant if they are using the drugs to gain an unfair advantage with a normally healthy body.

No.  There is a banned substance list.  Nearly every form of testosterone is on that list, and just to be sure they didn't miss one, the list concludes with "and other substances with a similar chemical structure or similar biological effect(s)".  A woman taking testosterone on her way to becoming a man definitely experiences "similar biological effects".

A MtF trans girl taking estrogen to the level of a natal female is drastically reducing her physical performance.

Estrogens are not on the list, for that reason.  You've already said these people will not want to play because they won't have a "men's sports drive".  Boys taking estrogen won't likely make the boys team, anyway.

A  FtM trans boy is taking the testosterone to give him parity with his natal male peers.

Well, we're going to get back to where we disagree on whether or not she's really a boy until she's had the operation.  In any case, women are not prohibited from playing on men's teams.  If she wants to try to play football or men's basketball or baseball, nothing is stopping her. 

At some point, we need to ask ourselves why these people don't have to make the same decisions everybody else does.  Other kids have to decide whether or not to play sports or pursue other avenues of their lives.  In HS my son gave up being a quarterback and power forward to be an outfielder and drummer.  In college, he gave up baseball because he's pre-med and the travel was hurting his grades.  Why are gender dysphoric people somehow exempt from similar decisions?  It's not like we're talking about future pro athletes.  If your gender dysphoria is that overwhelming, how important can sports be?

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.50  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.47    2 months ago

Please check your condescension at the door next time. 
I don't want it or need it, nor did I ask you for it.

I asked some questions which you conveniently ignored.

So keep your little lecture to yourself.

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.51  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @3.1.41    2 months ago
The hormones change a transgendered person's muscle power. Bones by themselves are irrelevant to performance. It is the person's muscles that make a difference.

There's more to it than muscle size and bones are highly relevant. There are differences in males and females that are not undone by a few months, or even a year or two, of hormone treatments.

Developing males create more muscle fibers than females do, and studies show that even when the muscles are allowed to atrophy, the muscles cells remain. Having more muscle fibers will always allow a person to train harder and more effectively.

Greater bone density in native males (which does decrease in transition, but the process takes a while) allows a person to withstand greater stresses and staves off injuries.

Male skeletal structure is different and this never goes away. The different hip structure in males puts the legs more directly underneath the trunk, which makes for more efficient mobility when walking, running, or jumping. It allows a male to more effectively support weight. Anyone who develops as a male, also has bones that grow for a longer period of their life and are thus larger than they would be if they had developed as a female. Mere height is an advantage in many sports and anyone who developed as a male is taller than they would have been as a female.

Males also develop larger hands and feet, which allows for easier manipulation of balls and athletic apparatus like bars, rings, bats, and so on. An MtF softball or basketball player can grab the ball easier and control it more effectively. An MtF boxer will hit her opponent with a more massive fist. An MtF wrestler will be able to get a better grip on her opponent. I could go on.

Males develop larger heart and lungs for more efficient processing of oxygen, improving performance.

On top of all this, in many jurisdictions, the T levels permitted to MtF athletes are still higher than is found in any naturally born female and multiples higher than the average female, so that such athletes often still enjoy a testosterone advantage.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
3.1.52  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @3.1.41    2 months ago
Bones by themselves are irrelevant to performance. It is the person's muscles that make a difference. 

I thought you said:

I'm 5-10 and I am clueless at sports.

And then you're going to tell somebody else:

Why are you trying to have a discussion or a debate of a topic that you apparently have no knowledge of? 

Hmmmmm......

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.53  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.52    2 months ago
Hmmmmm......

The fact that I am a tall female doesn't mean that I excel at sports. My height as a cyclist was a disadvantage because of the added wind resistance.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
3.1.54  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @3.1.53    2 months ago
The fact that I am a tall female doesn't mean that I excel at sports. My height as a cyclist was a disadvantage because of the added wind resistance.

The point...disappointed that it requires further explanation..... is that you have admitted you are "clueless at sports", yet you continue to attempt to argue about the necessary ingredients for athletic prowess with former athletes and coaches.

Please understand, there is nothing wrong with being "clueless at sports".  They're not that important.  But attempting to argue authoritatively about something after you have both demonstrated and admitted cluelessness is a bit silly.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.55  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.53    2 months ago
The fact that I am a tall female doesn't mean that I excel at sports. My height as a cyclist was a disadvantage because of the added wind resistance.

Unusual. During the Tour de France, the taller riders usually do better at the time trials.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.56  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.55    2 months ago
Unusual. During the Tour de France, the taller riders usually do better at the time trials.

The tall riders don't do well in time trials, except in team time trial where their height is minimized by drafting.  Climbers tend to be skinny, but most of them are short.

Time trialists tend to be all around because you need both speed and aerobic capacity to do well.

Sprinters tend to be very muscular, but they suffer in the hills because they cannot climb.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.57  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.54    2 months ago
The point...disappointed that it requires further explanation..... is that you have admitted you are "clueless at sports", yet you continue to attempt to argue about the necessary ingredients for athletic prowess with former athletes and coaches.

You continually misunderstand what I am saying.  I am saying that despite my height I have no athletic ability. I am not saying that I do not understand sports or exercise physiology. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
 
 
Jack_TX
3.1.59  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @3.1.57    2 months ago
You continually misunderstand what I am saying.  I am saying that despite my height I have no athletic ability. I am not saying that I do not understand sports or exercise physiology. 

You said "clueless".  You did not say "rubbish" or "uncoordinated" or "terrible" or even "not very good".  Clueless indicates you have no understanding, not that you lack ability.  I'm not sure how we can be expected to read your mind.

That said, you have made other posts that reinforce your lack of understanding.  As I said, there is no shame in being "clueless" about sports, and you might want to stick to that claim.

 
 
 
gooseisgone
3.1.60  seeder  gooseisgone  replied to  epistte @3.1.21    2 months ago
assigned to write a 5000-word term paper on the subject in 1988

Maybe look at some more current events.

Lest we forget, in October of last year, a man won the women’s world cycling championship. The Connecticut girls high school state track championships have now been dominated for two years running by a pair of boys. Boys are winning girls high school wrestling championships, while in other cases, girls “transitioning” to boys are beating the rest of the girls after being pumped full of testosterone. For Pete’s sake, we even have men beating all the women in weightlifting

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.61  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.58    2 months ago

 You are correct. They are above the 85% percentile, even among the genetic outliers of the BENELUX.  They didn't seem overly tall to me. 

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.62  epistte  replied to  gooseisgone @3.1.60    2 months ago
Maybe look at some more current events. Lest we forget, in October of last year, a man won the women’s world cycling championship. The Connecticut girls high school state track championships have now been dominated for two years running by a pair of boys. Boys are winning girls high school wrestling championships, while in other cases, girls “transitioning” to boys are beating the rest of the girls after being pumped full of testosterone. For Pete’s sake, we even have men beating all the women in weightlifting

I wasn't aware of the road cycling win, but she doesn't look like she is on a sufficient dose of estrogen because of her muscle definition.  At her age, the minimum requirement should be that she be required to have gender surgery to compete as a woman. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.63  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.61    2 months ago
You are correct. They are above the 85% percentile, even among the genetic outliers of the BENELUX. They didn't seem overly tall to me.

What they seem to be to you is hardly relevant to the facts.

 
 
 
Tessylo
3.1.64  Tessylo  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.50    2 months ago
'Please check your condescension at the door next time.'
jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_90_smiley_image.gif
 
 
 
gooseisgone
3.1.65  seeder  gooseisgone  replied to  epistte @3.1.62    2 months ago
the minimum requirement should be that she be required to have gender surgery to compete as a woman

That should be the requirement for all cases.  

 
 
 
Willjay9
3.1.66  Willjay9  replied to  WallyW @3.1    2 months ago

So are trying to say girls cant compete with boys? That they are the weaker sex?! Why do you have so low an opinion of women?

 
 
 
Willjay9
3.1.67  Willjay9  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.51    2 months ago

Ok....there is a case of a transgender high wrestler who was female who just recently switched to male who is undefeated wrestling boys!....so that kind of blows your little theory out the water then huh?

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.68  epistte  replied to  gooseisgone @3.1.65    2 months ago
That should be the requirement for all cases.  

Most surgeons will not perform gender surgery under the age of 18 because their bodies are still growing.   That idea would eliminate trans' kids from participating in HS sports.  That would also prevent kids with less than great medical insurance because their parents couldn't afford it if the insurance company doesn't cover it. 

Gender reassignment surgery is generally covered subject to the indications listed below and per your plan documents. HealthPartners follows the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH SOC-7), guidelines for primary sex characteristic gender reassignment surgery.

Indications that are covered

  1. All of the following criteria must be met prior to mastectomy for female to male members:
    1. The member must:
      1. Have persistent, well documented gender dysphoria.
      2. Be at least 18 years old, the legal age of majority in Minnesota; however, approval of this surgery for members less than 18 years old will be considered on a case-by-case basis where consistent with WPATH SOC-7 guidelines relating to treatment of children and adolescents; and
      3. Have the capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment; and
      4. Have one referral from a qualified mental health professional that addresses all of the following:
        1. The member’s general identifying characteristics; and
        2. Results of the member’s psychosocial assessment, including any diagnoses; and
        3. The duration of the mental health professional’s relationship with the member including the type of evaluation and therapy or counseling to date; and
        4. An explanation that the criteria for surgery have been met, and a brief description of the clinical rationale for supporting the member’s request for surgery; and
        5. A statement that informed consent has been obtained from the patient; and
        6. A statement that the mental health professional is available for coordination of care.
    2. If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, documentation must support that they are reasonably well controlled.
 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
3.1.69  The Magic Eight Ball  replied to  Willjay9 @3.1.67    2 months ago
who was female who just recently switched to male who is undefeated wrestling boys!....so that kind of blows your little theory out the water then huh?

no, it just means that she/he has not faced any real competition yet

https://www.bing.com/search?q=fastest+person+in+the+world&FORM=AWRE   

  • not a woman

https://www.bing.com/search?q=worlds+strongest+person&PC=U316&FORM=CHROMN

  • not a woman

those two simple searches blow your whole argument out of the water.

when either one of those two searches above returns a born female as the strongest or fastest person in the world? that is when you have a valid theory but not until then. 

yes, some women are faster or stronger than some men. but no woman is faster or stronger than all men.

when a born female becomes the fastest or strongest "person on the planet?  be sure to let us know.

  

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.70  Tacos!  replied to  Willjay9 @3.1.67    2 months ago
so that kind of blows your little theory out the water then huh?

What "theory" are you referring to? I don't remember posing one beyond the fact (it's not a theory) that there are many differences between males and females and they don't all go away because a male starts taking estrogen. Everything I said was about males transitioning to female. You respond by presenting me with the skeleton of a story about a female - presumably one getting testosterone supplements, but we don't know how much - transitioning to male. That's the opposite scenario to what I wrote about.

If you are curious about that particular wrestler, I suggest you do some research and get more information. See if you can find out what the testosterone count is in this kid. It may well be higher than the kids he is wrestling. It's also possible he's just a very skilled wrestler. Skill can easily make the difference in wrestling because the competition is segregated based on very narrow weight classes.

 
 
 
zuksam
3.1.71  zuksam  replied to  epistte @3.1.1    2 months ago
If the person is on HRT for 6 months then there should not be a problem.

Even if that were true you can't force them to take those drugs. The law makes no distinction, in fact it protects their right not to take the drugs and yet still be treated the same as those who do. The hard cold facts are once this is law Transgender Girls will be winning all the Athletic Scholarships since the Law will forbid the schools from holding their Trans status against them. Scholarships will be awarded strictly on Athletic Performance and that leaves Cisgender Girls with a huge disadvantage. So much for Women's Rights soon any male who isn't good enough to win a Scholarship in Male Sports can throw on a Wig and call themselves Trans and Steal a Women's Scholarship.

 
 
 
zuksam
3.1.72  zuksam  replied to  Willjay9 @3.1.67    2 months ago
Ok....there is a case of a transgender high wrestler who was female who just recently switched to male who is undefeated wrestling boys!....so that kind of blows your little theory out the water then huh?

Wrestlers compete in weight classes. I had a friend in Highschool who wrestled in the 106lb class so a male and female who both make weight in that class are a lot better match than a 190lb male vs. a 135 female playing Field Hockey. Even at the same weight the average male has the advantage over the average female, there are very buff females and they may be stronger than many males but even the strongest female can't compete against the strongest of males.

 
 
 
Don Overton
3.2  Don Overton  replied to  luther28 @3    2 months ago

[delete]

 
 
 
XDm9mm
4  XDm9mm    2 months ago

HAVE NO FEAR....

EVERYONE COMPETING WILL RECEIVE A PARTICIPATION TROPHY THAT SAYS 1st PLACE.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
4.1  Jack_TX  replied to  XDm9mm @4    2 months ago

Ok.

That's pretty funny.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
4.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  XDm9mm @4    2 months ago

I fuckin hope not.

 
 
 
Tacos!
5  Tacos!    2 months ago

I'm not sure it would achieve the result they want. Sex is already protected, but that doesn't prevent schools from sexually segregating the sports. In fact, the Title IX statutes expressly require that equivalent resources be invested in male and female sports.

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
6  The Magic Eight Ball    2 months ago

today's democrats are something else,  if they can not fuk something up, they want to ban it.

 
 
 
epistte
7  epistte    2 months ago
Democrats’ Equality Act would amend the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to make “sexual orientation and gender identity” protected characteristics under federal anti-discrimination law. Among other things, the bill would force public schools to expand female athletic teams to include biological males who identify as transgender girls.

Adding gender identity and sexual orientation to the protected classes of the 1964 Civil Rights Act is a great step forward to protecting all Americans equally. Both gay and hetero, as well as trans and CIS, plus those who are bisexual and gender fluid. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
7.1  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7    2 months ago
Adding gender identity and sexual orientation to the protected classes of the 1964 Civil Rights Act is a great step forward to protecting all Americans equally.

It's a great step back for Title IX, which is a stupid law anyway, IMO, so this would just increase that stupidity exponentially.

 
 
 
epistte
7.1.1  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1    2 months ago
It's a great step back for Title IX, which is a stupid law anyway, IMO, so this would just increase that stupidity exponentially.

How is it a step back for Title IX? How do women lose when LGBT have equal protections against discrimination?

Why shouldn't LGBT people be protected equally by adding sexual orientation and gender identity to protected classes? Will you lose anything when it happens?

 
 
 
Rmando
7.1.2  Rmando  replied to  epistte @7.1.1    2 months ago

Because real women and girls lose when men and boys are allowed to compete against them in sports- at least most of the time. These teenage boys who claim to be female have an unfair physical advantage. That's the whole reason sports are divided by gender. No amount of injections or medical quackery is going to change that.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
7.1.3  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.1.1    2 months ago
How is it a step back for Title IX? How do women lose when LGBT have equal protections against discrimination?

Title IX exists to give girls equal opportunities to play.  When we allow boys to play in their stead, we defeat the purpose of the law.

Why shouldn't LGBT people be protected equally by adding sexual orientation and gender identity to protected classes?

Why shouldn't short people?  Fat people?  Why shouldn't redheads?  How about women who prefer short men, or men who prefer blonds with big boobs?    

Will you lose anything when it happens?

Personally?  Not at all.  Since when is that a qualifier for thinking a law is a bad idea?  90% of liberals benefitted from the Trump tax cut.  They still think it's a stupid idea.

 
 
 
epistte
7.1.4  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1.3    2 months ago
Why shouldn't short people?  Fat people?  Why shouldn't redheads?  How about women who prefer short men, or men who prefer blonds with big boobs?    

Are there instances that they are being discriminated against because of those characteristics?

Personally?  Not at all.  Since when is that a qualifier for thinking a law is a bad idea?  90% of liberals benefitted from the Trump tax cut.  They still think it's a stupid idea.

The tax cut added trillions to the debt, it didn't create the claimed jobs, it benefited those who are already wealthy, it took money out of circulation and it isn't good public policy. We need to think as an interconnected society and not just 350 million seperate people living in close proximity. Spending those same trillions on infastructre repairs and upgrades would have been much more beneficial to the American people as a whole

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
7.1.5  Thrawn 31  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1.3    2 months ago
Title IX exists to give girls equal opportunities to play.  When we allow boys to play in their stead, we defeat the purpose of the law.

I agree. Amazing I know, but I think we are on the same side of this issue. You can grow your hair out, put on makeup, have cosmetic surgery all you like, but that doesn't change your genetics. And when it comes to something where genetics are 75% of it (and it is, train as hard as I might Usain Bolt will always waste me in a sprint even if he doesn't train for a year), well you have an advantage if you are genetically male and competing against women. 

No offense intended ladies, just acknowledging the general biological differences between the two sexes. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
7.1.6  Thrawn 31  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1    2 months ago
It's a great step back for Title IX, which is a stupid law anyway

That I completely disagree with. Was the Civil Rights Act stupid to begin with? It is the exact same thing. 

 
 
 
epistte
7.1.7  epistte  replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.1.5    2 months ago
I agree. Amazing I know, but I think we are on the same side of this issue. You can grow your hair out, put on makeup, have cosmetic surgery all you like, but that doesn't change your genetics. And when it comes to something where genetics are 75% of it (and it is, train as hard as I might Usain Bolt will always waste me in a sprint even if he doesn't train for a year), well you have an advantage if you are genetically male and competing against women. 

No offense intended ladies, just acknowledging the general biological differences between the two sexes. 

A person's genetics determines their biological gender but it does always determine a person's gender identity.  It is that incongruent gender identity that makes a person transgendered.  They are not playing dress up and the surgery is not cosmetic. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
7.1.8  Thrawn 31  replied to  epistte @7.1.7    2 months ago
A person's genetics determines their biological gender but it does always determine a person's gender identity. 

I totally get that, and am not arguing that point. And I prefer the word sex to gender, it is much more specific and applicable to the current topic. If you are genetically male, then you will naturally produce more testosterone, which increases muscles mass and thus strength (and aggression, but that's a totally different discussion). 

That has the effect of generally making a person bigger, stronger, and faster. In normal life this is not an issue, but when it comes to sports this issue is HUGE. A person's gender is not the issue, it is their bio chemistry that is the issue. 

It is that incongruent gender identity that makes a person transgendered.  They are not playing dress up and the surgery is not cosmetic. 

My point was that no amount of surgery or clothes or whatever in the fuck else is going to change a person's body chemistry. Now of course you can boost and reduce hormones, which will level the playing field to a degree. That is another issue, but excluding that if you are born male you play in the male divisions and vice versa IMO.

To highlight my position, let's just say that Giannis Antetokounmpo felt that he is actually a she and then wants to play in the WNBA, the result would be an absurdity. 

 
 
 
epistte
7.1.9  epistte  replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.1.8    2 months ago
I totally get that, and am not arguing that point. And I prefer the word sex to gender, it is much more specific and applicable to the current topic. If you are genetically male, then you will naturally produce more testosterone, which increases muscles mass and thus strength (and aggression, but that's a totally different discussion). 

Sex and gender are different. Sex is a physical act of mating. Gender is the person's male or female, either their biological gender or their psychological gender identity, which is their male or female sense of self. 

The hormones and hormone blockers override their biological hormones and force their body to align with their psychological gender identity. 

My point was that no amount of surgery or clothes or whatever in the fuck else is going to change a person's body chemistry. Now of course you can boost and reduce hormones, which will level the playing field to a degree. That is another issue, but excluding that if you are born male you play in the male divisions and vice versa IMO.

It does change their body chemistry, quite dramatically.

 
 
 
epistte
7.1.10  epistte  replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.1.8    2 months ago
To highlight my position, let's just say that Giannis Antetokounmpo felt that he is actually a she and then wants to play in the WNBA, the result would be an absurdity. 

If she has been on an effective dose of HRT/blockers for 6 months to a year so they have female hormone levels, and a diagnosis of transgendered, any physical advantage would be lost.  Those hormones also change a person mentally, muting the male aggression.

 
 
 
Don Overton
7.1.11  Don Overton  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
7.1.12  Thrawn 31  replied to  epistte @7.1.9    2 months ago
Sex and gender are different.

Absolutely.

Sex is a physical act of mating.

I am talking biological sex, male and female. Not the act of mating. 

Gender is the person's male or female, either their biological gender or their psychological gender identity

And that right there is the difference between sex and gender. Sex is your genetic classification (granted there are some people who are indeed both) and gender is more or less which sex you identify with on an individual basis. Sex and gender are two terms that have VERY different meanings in the scientific community. 

The hormones and hormone blockers override their biological hormones and force their body to align with their psychological gender identity. 

They definitely override the body's natural processes, but as soon as you stop taking them then your body does what it is geared to do. How to handle and monitor that is up to the folks who run these leagues. 

It does change their body chemistry, quite dramatically.

Not without the hormones. My wife can put some make up on me and I can go get a tit job, but if I go into the gym I will bench more than any woman in there. The biochemistry is what it all comes down to.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
7.1.13  Thrawn 31  replied to  epistte @7.1.10    2 months ago
If she has been on an effective dose of HRT/blockers for 6 months to a year so they have female hormone levels, and a diagnosis of transgendered, any physical advantage would be lost.  Those hormones also change a person mentally, muting the male aggression.

Very true. And that really comes down to the ultimate point I am looking to make (although not very well admittedly). If you are a transgender male and want to play in the women's divisions, then you need to go all the way. Start pounding those hormones, lower that testosterone and boost that estrogen.

Your bio chemistry needs to be roughly that of your competitors. If it is not then you play in the division more suited to you.

 
 
 
epistte
7.1.14  epistte  replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.1.13    2 months ago
Very true. And that really comes down to the ultimate point I am looking to make (although not very well admittedly). If you are a transgender male and want to play in the women's divisions, then you need to go all the way. Start pounding those hormones, lower that testosterone and boost that estrogen. Your bio chemistry needs to be roughly that of your competitors. If it is not then you play in the division more suited to you.

6 months on effective HRT to biological natal levels for their identified gender, and a qualified doctor's diagnosis would be sufficient before the start of the athletic season. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
7.1.15  Thrawn 31  replied to  epistte @7.1.14    2 months ago

And if that is the case, then alright, whatever. 

But only as long as that is the case. Anything less and you play with the boys.

\

 
 
 
Jack_TX
7.1.16  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.1.4    2 months ago
Are there instances that they are being discriminated against because of those characteristics?

Absolutely.  

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12187872/Size-does-matter-tall-men-and-slender-women-earn-more-throughout-life.html

https://metro.co.uk/2017/02/05/why-britain-needs-a-law-against-ginger-discrimination-6427955/

The tax cut added trillions to the debt, it didn't create the claimed jobs, it benefited those who are already wealthy, it took money out of circulation and it isn't good public policy.

And nearly every American got to keep more of their money.  So if the litmus test is personal impact, almost no American should oppose it.  

Therefore the litmus test shouldn't be personal impact.  My point exactly.

 
 
 
epistte
7.1.17  epistte  replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.1.12    2 months ago
They definitely override the body's natural processes, but as soon as you stop taking them then your body does what it is geared to do. How to handle and monitor that is up to the folks who run these leagues. 

The same blood tests that students undergo to check if they are taking performance enhancing drugs, illegal drugs, or alcohol.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
7.1.18  Jack_TX  replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.1.6    2 months ago
That I completely disagree with. Was the Civil Rights Act stupid to begin with? It is the exact same thing.

I think Title IX is stupid because I think we need a complete overhaul on how we think about scholastic athletics.

The amount of money we spend on these programs is beyond ridiculous, and most of these kids are already playing these sports outside of school.  The off-field benefits of these programs are well established, but there is no evidence to suggest that money wouldn't get better results if it were spent in the classroom....which is....after all... where school is supposed to happen.

The average collegiate women's hockey program loses over $1million/yr.  The average baseball program loses $700k.  Meanwhile the inflation rate on college tuition is more than double the overall inflation rate.  So we're making non-athletes subsidize 22 girls while they pursue an activity nobody cares about enough to watch.

Even on the HS level, the money spent to build gymnasiums and indoor practice facilities and 20,000 seater stadiums is idiotic.  Not to mention the money spent on equipment, coaching stipends, additional teachers to cover classes coaches don't teach, travel, insurance, uniforms and on and on and on.

In most schools, the only sports that generate enough revenue to cover their costs are football and men's basketball.  I think we could keep those, lose the rest, and we'd have much better schools.

BTW....I've coached for 27 years, my son was a 3 sport athlete in HS and an NCAA baseball player.  Sure...I enjoyed watching him play and he loved it.  But if I'm honest....the money spent on both HS and college baseball is better spent somewhere else.

Title IX simply takes that problem and multiplies it. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
7.2  Greg Jones  replied to  epistte @7    2 months ago
gender fluid

WTF is that?

 
 
 
epistte
7.2.1  epistte  replied to  Greg Jones @7.2    2 months ago
WTF is that?

If male is the far right and female is the far left, gender fluid means that they identify as neither absolutely male or female. They are also not androgynous. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
7.2.2  Cerenkov  replied to  Greg Jones @7.2    2 months ago

It's made up. Like most liberal "science".

 
 
 
epistte
7.2.3  epistte  replied to  Cerenkov @7.2.2    2 months ago
It's made up. Like most liberal "science".

You need to understand that our psychological gender identity isn't binary. Our biological gender is also not binary because intersexxed people exist, as do XXY and XYY people.  

People obviously aren't always heterosexual or homosexual because various shades of bisexuality also exist. You would do well to educate yourself about the details of human sexuality. 

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
7.2.4  Phoenyx13  replied to  epistte @7.2.3    2 months ago
You need to understand that our psychological gender identity isn't binary. Our biological gender is also not binary because intersexxed people exist, as do XXY and XYY people.   People obviously aren't always heterosexual or homosexual because various shades of bisexuality also exist. You would do well to educate yourself about the details of human sexuality.

it's pretty simple to understand and easy to comprehend for most people... but you should always know your target audience

 
 
 
epistte
7.2.5  epistte  replied to  Phoenyx13 @7.2.4    2 months ago
it's pretty simple to understand and easy to comprehend for most people... but you should always know your target audience

What color of crayon should I use to create the Venn diagrams? 

 This should not be a difficult idea to comprehend but many people get caught up in their own emotions or religious beliefs. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
7.2.6  Cerenkov  replied to  epistte @7.2.3    2 months ago

Yeah. It's binary. Study some biology not new wave idealogy. 

 
 
 
epistte
7.2.7  epistte  replied to  Cerenkov @7.2.6    2 months ago
Yeah. It's binary. Study some biology not new wave idealogy. 

Your declaration is proof that you do not understand even the most basic ideas of human sexuality. I do have to wonder why you want everything to be a simple black and white instead of the many shades of grey in reality. 

Gender and sexuality aren't binary because if it was then bisexual and intersexxed people would not exist. A persons gender identity is also not binary because not every is 100% male or female in their drives and opinions. 

Univ. of Minnesota.

https://www.med.umn.edu/md-students/academics/course-directory/course/human-sexuality

National Institute of Health,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5289348

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
7.2.8  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Greg Jones @7.2    2 months ago

In 2 words - Mental Illness.

 
 
 
epistte
7.2.9  epistte  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @7.2.8    2 months ago
In 2 words - Mental Illness.

If a person can be bisexual,  then why can't they be fluidic in their gender expression?  Is being bisexual also a mental illness? 

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
7.2.10  Phoenyx13  replied to  epistte @7.2.5    2 months ago
What color of crayon should I use to create the Venn diagrams? 

their "best" tactic is to conflate biological sex with gender or just completely dismiss gender identity as if it didn't exist... personally, i think you should go with "pretty" colors that they will pay attention to, maybe take a poll to find out their favorite colors and go from there :)

 
 
 
epistte
7.2.11  epistte  replied to  Phoenyx13 @7.2.10    2 months ago

personally, i think you should go with "pretty" colors that they will pay attention to, maybe take a poll to find out their favorite colors and go from there. 

I should get a roll of newsprint and Prismacolor markers in all of the colors of the rainbow flag. It will be glorious! I could use MS Powerpoint but I hate those presentations.  

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
7.2.12  Phoenyx13  replied to  epistte @7.2.11    2 months ago
Prismacolor markers in all of the colors of the rainbow flag

oh be careful with that... we have another article on here that says a lot of the religious are "triggered" by the Rainbow Flag...  jrSmiley_91_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
epistte
7.2.13  epistte  replied to  Phoenyx13 @7.2.12    2 months ago
oh be careful with that... we have another article on here that says a lot of the religious are "triggered" by the Rainbow Flag...

When I am finished with my presentation there will be glitter falling like rain, unicorns will dance ion the streets and Ray Davies, Lady Gag and Elton John will sing the Kinks anthem to transgendered love, Lola.  The world will join hands and sing along in unity and 3 part harmony for eternity. 

 Queen Elizabeth and the Pope will  declare that crime and discrimination have ended.

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
7.2.15  Phoenyx13  replied to  epistte @7.2.13    2 months ago
When I am finished with my presentation there will be glitter falling like rain, unicorns will dance ion the streets and Ray Davies, Lady Gag and Elton John will sing the Kinks anthem to transgendered love, Lola.  The world will join hands and sing along in unity and 3 part harmony for eternity.   Queen Elizabeth and the Pope will  declare that crime and discrimination have ended.

oh it shall be glorious !! Sunshine will be forevermore in the sky ! And everyone will get ice cream sundaes with extra sprinkles and a cherry on top ! yay !!!!! jrSmiley_91_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_36_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_24_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Goodtime Charlie
7.3  Goodtime Charlie  replied to  epistte @7    2 months ago
plus those who are bisexual and gender fluid

So it be OK for you to have bisexuals and gender fluid people to compete against either gender?

 
 
 
epistte
7.3.1  epistte  replied to  Goodtime Charlie @7.3    2 months ago
So it be OK for you to have bisexuals and gender fluid people to compete against either gender?

Do you not understand that sexual orientation and gender identity are different? Sexual orientation describes who you are attracted to. Gender identity describes who you see yourself as.  Bisexuals are not transgendered. Some trans' people might be bisexual. 

Gender fluid people are a special case and that would have to be determined on a case by case basis unless they have an identified gender but they chose to express both genders depending on their mood.

 
 
 
Goodtime Charlie
7.3.2  Goodtime Charlie  replied to  epistte @7.3.1    2 months ago
Gender fluid people are a special case and that would have to be determined on a case by case basis unless they have an identified gender but they chose to express both genders depending on their mood.

So if a Gender Fluid person felt like a girl on any given day they could compete with girls and if they felt like a boy the next day they could compete against boys? If they felt like a boy and girl on the same day do they compete against the boys or girls?

 
 
 
epistte
7.3.3  epistte  replied to  Goodtime Charlie @7.3.2    2 months ago
So if a Gender Fluid person felt like a girl on any given day they could compete with girls and if they felt like a boy the next day they could compete against boys? If they felt like a boy and girl on the same day do they compete against the boys or girls?

What are their hormone levels?  They must have the hormone levels of the CIS gender they are competing as for 90 days to 6 months prior to competition. 

 
 
 
Goodtime Charlie
7.3.4  Goodtime Charlie  replied to  epistte @7.3.3    2 months ago

A person who is Gender Fluid may always feel like a mix of the two traditional genders, but may feel more boy some days, and more girl other days. That doesn't leave any room for " They must have the hormone levels of the CIS gender they are competing as for 90 days to 6 months prior to competition"

Are you seriously saying a Gender Fluid person's hormone levels can change depending on if they feel like a boy or girl?

 
 
 
IceMan
7.3.5  IceMan  replied to  Goodtime Charlie @7.3.2    2 months ago
If they felt like a boy and girl on the same day do they compete against the boys or girls?

They go home and play with themselves

 
 
 
epistte
7.3.6  epistte  replied to  Goodtime Charlie @7.3.4    2 months ago
A person who is Gender Fluid may always feel like a mix of the two traditional genders, but may feel more boy some days, and more girl other days. That doesn't leave any room for " They must have the hormone levels of the CIS gender they are competing as for 90 days to 6 months prior to competition"

The hormones of gender fluid people do not change in any meaningful way according to their mood, that I am aware of.  What I said that you misunderstood is that their hormones would have to be changed, if they were not in the normal range, to be either male or female and that they would compete as that gender.

Why is this subject so difficult for you and other conservatives top understand?  Do you feel threatened because trans' people exist openly and demand equality?

 
 
 
MonsterMash
7.3.7  MonsterMash  replied to  epistte @7.3.6    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
epistte
7.3.8  epistte  replied to  MonsterMash @7.3.7    2 months ago
deleted for context, by charger383

 
 
 
MonsterMash
7.3.9  MonsterMash  replied to  epistte @7.3.8    2 months ago
deleted for context, by charger383
 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
7.3.11  The Magic Eight Ball  replied to  epistte @7.3.1    2 months ago
Do you not understand that sexual orientation and gender identity are different?

the male and female bodies are different regardless of what identity is in the mind.

it is just a matter of physics.  a female body will never beat the mens world record in track.

yet a mans body that identifies as a woman can absolutely beat the womens world record.

lines will have to be drawn, new divisions/class' created or it truly will be a mans world and normal women will never win in sports again.  

 
 
 
Jack_TX
7.3.12  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.3.8    2 months ago
I'm sorry that you find my posts to be condescending. It is not intentional.

That's just difficult to believe.

This is offensive to me because  I am constantly learning. id be bored to tears if I didn't.

You don't seem to worry about being offensive to other people, and you don't seem very interested in learning much of anything.  Any time somebody presents you with a different interpretation of the facts at hand, you call them ignorant.  Like this:

I fail to see why some people have such a difficult time understand gender identity.

Just so you're aware....people understand it.  Please get it through your head that people understand what you believe about gender identity.  Some of us just see it differently.  

Why is that so hard for you to accept?

 
 
 
epistte
7.3.13  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.3.12    2 months ago
Just so you're aware....people understand it.  Please get it through your head that people understand what you believe about gender identity.  Some of us just see it differently.   Why is that so hard for you to accept?

You have the right to your own opinions but an unsupported opinion does not equally counter empirical facts.  Are Flat Earthers automatically the equal of NASA's proven data because they hold a counter opinion?

I understand that other people have different opinions but until they are willing to post researchable information that supports that idea there is nothing to learn. I also have an opinion and I post sources and links to support my ideas. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
7.3.14  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.3.13    2 months ago
You have the right to your own opinions but an unsupported opinion does not equally counter empirical facts.

It's psychology.  Are there actually any "empirical facts"?

  Are Flat Earthers automatically the equal of NASA's proven data because they hold a counter opinion?

NASA never tried to pass off "penis envy" as "science".  NASA didn't suddenly change it's mind about from "flat earth" to "sphere" in 2012.

I understand that other people have different opinions but until they are willing to post researchable information that supports that idea there is nothing to learn. I also have an opinion and I post sources and links to support my ideas. 

Links to other opinions.

 
 
 
epistte
7.3.15  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.3.14    2 months ago
It's psychology.  Are there actually any "empirical facts"?

  Yes.

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.pdf

.

NASA never tried to pass off "penis envy" as "science".  NASA didn't suddenly change it's mind about from "flat earth" to "sphere" in 2012.

Penis envy has nothing to do with why an FtM is transgendered.  The idea of penis envy has been debunked for about 50 years. It was more about male social power and patriarchy than it was about sex. 

Some girls do go through a stage of wishing they had a penis, said Wells. But this is, again, probably not as literal as it seems. Wells compared this to the way a child might envy another child's height, an aesthetic desire that has roots in a psychological one. For example, a girl might perceive that her brother has more advantages in life and, since his penis is one of the things that makes him different from her, she possibly expresses some type of penis envy, said Lopez. While penises are a common indicator of being a man, penis envy is not necessarily an expression of nonconforming gender identity, said Lopez. However, penis envy is such a general phrase that she is cautious to define what it's likely to mean until she knows the individual situation in which the term is being used, she said. "I think that if a patient came to me and that was their presenting problem, I would just want to know more about it to try to understand it," said Lopez. [8 Wild Facts About the Penis]

https://www.livescience.com/54682-is-penis-envy-real.html

 
 
 
Jack_TX
7.3.16  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.3.15    2 months ago
Yes.
https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.pdf

Six pages and no actual science.  Certainly no empirical data. 

Penis envy has nothing to do with why an FtM is transgendered.

It has everything to do with how limited the scientific reliability of psychology is.

 
 
 
epistte
7.3.17  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.3.16    2 months ago
Six pages and no actual science.  Certainly no empirical data. 

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

It has everything to do with how limited the scientific reliability of psychology is.

This idea isn't a coherent claim.

 If you know so much about human sexuality what is your treatment plan for transgendered people that offers a better quality of life?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
7.3.18  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.3.17    2 months ago
https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

Interesting.  Certainly more empirical.  

This idea isn't a coherent claim.

We disagree on a lot of things, which is fine.  The scientific defensibility of the study of "feelings" is very likely going to always be on that list.  At least they're no longer torturing kids to the point of suicide just because a circumcision goes wrong.

 If you know so much about human sexuality what is your treatment plan for transgendered people that offers a better quality of life?

Bizarre statement, in multiple ways.  First, I have already said repeatedly I don't oppose gender changes.  It's their body, it's their business.  Secondly, one does not need to know how to solve a problem in order to recognize one.  One does need to know how to cure cancer in order to recognize that "a course of leeches" does not produce the desired results.  One does not need to know how to fix a car in order to recognize that "washing it again" will not make it start.

If suicide rate is used as evidence that the surgery is needed, it should also be used as a measure of the procedure's efficacy.  Transgendered people still have a higher suicide rate than the normal population, even after their surgeries.  Clearly these people's problems extend beyond gender.

For much of the 20th century, it was believed that surgery could alleviate unwanted "feelings".  Tens of thousands were performed until they were finally recognized as barbaric.  But I'm sure you're familiar with the history of the lobotomy. 

 
 
 
epistte
7.3.19  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.3.18    2 months ago
If suicide rate is used as evidence that the surgery is needed, it should also be used as a measure of the procedure's efficacy.  Transgendered people still have a higher suicide rate than the normal population, even after their surgeries. 

Trans' people do not get the postoperative supportive care and in many cases, they are still discriminated against.  That is the problem that causes depression and anxiety, which leads to substance abuse and sucide. 

Clearly these people's problems extend beyond gender.

Abuse and discmination is rampant among trans people and in the larger LGBT community.  Many were absued as children and in schools.  They are still discmiated agaisnt in many states.  They also have a high rate of being the target of hate crimes.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgender-community-in-2018

 
 
 
Jack_TX
7.3.20  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.3.19    2 months ago
Trans' people do not get the postoperative supportive care

What kind of care?

That is the problem that causes depression and anxiety, which leads to substance abuse and sucide. 

Emotional problems leading to suicide.... Reaffirming the whole "serous mental illness" concept.

Abuse and discmination is rampant among trans people and in the larger LGBT community.

As it is among blacks and latinos.

  Many were absued as children and in schools.

Half of all American kids are abused.  Abuse doesn't explain the difference in suicidal behaviors.

  They are still discmiated agaisnt in many states.

I expect so, but you and I will probably disagree on the threshold for "discrimination".

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
8  Thrawn 31    2 months ago

Hmmm, this is an.. interesting situation. IMO if you are trans and ID as a girl, you still have to participate in the male divisions, and vice versa. Surgery doesn't change genetics. 

 
 
 
Don Overton
8.1  Don Overton  replied to  Thrawn 31 @8    2 months ago

Prove it

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
8.1.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Don Overton @8.1    2 months ago

I can get tits but still bench more than any woman on the campus that I work at.

A boob job does not alter my level of testosterone. 

 
 
 
epistte
8.1.2  epistte  replied to  Thrawn 31 @8.1.1    2 months ago

6 months on spironolactone would accomplish that, plus the proper dose of estrogen/estradiol. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
8.1.3  Greg Jones  replied to  epistte @8.1.2    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
epistte
8.1.4  epistte  replied to  Greg Jones @8.1.3    2 months ago
Did you personally go through this regimen?

I am not transgendered, so the answer would be no.

 

 
 
 
Goodtime Charlie
9  Goodtime Charlie    2 months ago

Trying to change boys into girls and girls into boys sounds like some kind of gruesome experiment Josef Mengele would have done to Jewish children in Nazi concentration camps. Dr. Mengele was ahead of his time, he would have fit in with some of todays "Progressives"

 
 
 
epistte
9.1  epistte  replied to  Goodtime Charlie @9    2 months ago
Trying to change boys into girls and girls into boys sounds like some kind of gruesome experiment Josef Mengele would have done to Jewish children in Nazi concentration camps. Dr. Mengele was ahead of his time, he would have fit in with some of todays "Progressives"

Trans people seek this treatment to alleviate their gender identity, unlike the Nazis who used their victims for experimentation, obviously against their will. 

What is your preferred treatment that has a better outcome for the patients? Where did you get your med/psych' degree, [deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1    2 months ago
Trans people seek this treatment to alleviate their gender identity,

Alleviate? Really?

Alleviate what?

Is gender identity a problem for them?

 
 
 
Goodtime Charlie
9.1.2  Goodtime Charlie  replied to  epistte @9.1    2 months ago
[deletet]
 
 
 
epistte
9.1.3  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.1    2 months ago
Alleviate? Really?

Alleviate what?

Is gender identity a problem for them?

An incongruent gender identity is a very serious problem that can lead to suicide if it isn't addressed quickly and effectively.

 How would you feel if you looked in the mirror and saw hips and breasts but you felt like you were supposed to be a male?

 
 
 
MonsterMash
9.1.4  MonsterMash  replied to  epistte @9.1.3    2 months ago
How would you feel if you looked in the mirror and saw hips and breasts but you felt like you were supposed to be a male?

When a girl looks in a mirror and see's hips and breast but feels like a man her brain is screwed up.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.5  epistte  replied to  MonsterMash @9.1.4    2 months ago
When a girl looks in a mirror and see's hips and breast but feels like a man her brain is screwed up.

The proper term is transgendered because her psychological gender sense of self is incongruent for her biological gender.  He was born in the wrong gendered body.

 
 
 
MonsterMash
9.1.6  MonsterMash  replied to  epistte @9.1.5    2 months ago
her psychological gender sense of self is incongruent for her biological gender. 
SHE's  (not He) is psychologically messed up. Instead of pandering to Transgenders physiologist should be searching for the cause of their mental disorder, so they can give them the help they so desperately need.
 
 
 
Jack_TX
9.1.7  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @9.1.3    2 months ago
An incongruent gender identity is a very serious problem that can lead to suicide if it isn't addressed quickly and effectively.

It will make you kill yourself, but it's somehow not a mental illness.

I'm curious as to what other conditions lead to suicide and are not considered mental illness.  Are there any?

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.8  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @9.1.7    2 months ago
It will make you kill yourself, but it's somehow not a mental illness. I'm curious as to what other conditions lead to suicide and are not considered mental illness.  Are there any?

You do not practice nuanced thinking. Gender identity is not by itself a mental illness. If it is not treated effectively and quickly then there are mental illnesses such as gender dysphoria, depression, substance abuse, anxiety, etc) that commonly arise that can and often lead to suicide. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
9.1.9  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @9.1.8    2 months ago
You do not practice nuanced thinking.

You do not practice manners.  

Of course by "you don't practice nuanced thinking" you mean I "don't irrationally contort reality to fit what I want it to be".

Gender identity is not by itself a mental illness. If it is not treated effectively and quickly then there are mental illnesses such as gender dysphoria, depression, substance abuse, anxiety, etc) that commonly arise that can and often lead to suicide. 

So this "non-illness" that is a "very serious problem" and needs to be "treated".....  Riiiiight.   

That's not a massive or ridiculous rationalization at all...... 

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.10  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @9.1.9    2 months ago
You do not practice manners.  

Is it offensive to you that I notice that you refuse to see anything but two extremes in your arguments?

So this "non-illness" that is a "very serious problem" and needs to be "treated".....  Riiiiight.    That's not a massive or ridiculous rationalization at all...... 

Being trans, like being LGB, isn't a mental illness in itself, but denying that a person is transgendered and not taking steps to address that incongruent gender identity does lead to mental illnesses such as anxiety, depression, and various substances abuses. 

 What is your solution for people who have the biological body of one gender and the psychological gender identity of the other gender, if you oppose the current treatment regimen? 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
9.1.11  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @9.1.10    2 months ago
Is it offensive to you that I notice that you refuse to see anything but two extremes in your arguments?

It would not surprise or offend me to see you interpret my points through the same binary window you seem to interpret most points.  

Being trans, like being LGB, isn't a mental illness in itself,

I understand you believe that.  And I understand the transgender lobby has managed to get them attached to the LGB community and movement.  But the only commonality between LGB and transgender seems to be that they're both very high up on the list of "Things That Southern Baptists Hate". 

but denying that a person is transgendered and not taking steps to address that incongruent gender identity does lead to mental illnesses such as anxiety, depression, and various substances abuses. 

Presuming that being so unhappy in your own body you're willing to take gallons of hormones and have it surgically altered isn't a mental illness on its own.

 What is your solution for people who have the biological body of one gender and the psychological gender identity of the other gender, if you oppose the current treatment regimen? 

I've never said I oppose the "current treatment regimen".  I just don't think it's actually "treatment".  I think it's "enabling".  But I have no desire to interfere with what other people want to do to their bodies.  That's up to them.

It's worth stating again that we don't endorse and assist with this kind of behavior in any other form of emotional distress.  When an alcoholic says he drinks because it takes away his feelings of depression, we don't supply him more gin.  When the teenage girl cuts herself because it helps her cope with the anxiety, we don't expect the doctor to simply supply sterile blades and bandages.  When a man says he could only be happy with bigger muscles, we don't put him on an anabolic steriod regimen.  We don't hand bulimics a bucket or send sex addicts to a whorehouse.  In all of those cases, we counsel people against their desired course of action.

Yet with transgendered people, we are all supposed to believe that their condition is to be celebrated, whatever decisions they make are to be endorsed, and whatever desires they have are to be granted without question and without consideration of extraneous consequences.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.12  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @9.1.11    2 months ago
It would not surprise or offend me to see you interpret my points through the same binary window you seem to interpret most points.  

 Your claim is an act of psychological projection. I am the one who is criticizing you because you see only binary so I can't possibly see everything as black and white. 

 
I understand you believe that.  And I understand the transgender lobby has managed to get them attached to the LGB community and movement.  But the only commonality between LGB and transgender seems to be that they're both very high up on the list of "Things That Southern Baptists Hate". 

There is no transgendered lobby. Just as there is no gay lobby or a secret gay agenda.  It was trans women who fought the police at the Stonewall riots in NYC,, so they have always been part of the LGBT community.

Many in the LGB community do not support trans' people because they claim that they have different goals. TERFs ( Trans Exclusionaly Radical Femisnets)are openly hostile to transgendered people because they belive that a person who does not have a uterus cannot possibly understand the female experience, but the tide is turning against them.

Are you a member of the Southern Baptist church?

It's worth stating again that we don't endorse and assist with this kind of behavior in any other form of emotional distress.  When an alcoholic says he drinks because it takes away his feelings of depression, we don't supply him more gin.  When the teenage girl cuts herself because it helps her cope with the anxiety, we don't expect the doctor to simply supply sterile blades and bandages.  When a man says he could only be happy with bigger muscles, we don't put him on an anabolic steriod regimen.  We don't hand bulimics a bucket or send sex addicts to a whorehouse.  In all of those cases, we counsel people against their desired course of action. Yet with transgendered people, we are all supposed to believe that their condition is to be celebrated, whatever decisions they make are to be endorsed, and whatever desires they have are to be granted without question and without consideration of extraneous consequences.

Would you prefer if the medical/psych' community counseled them to be CIS as reparative therapy tries to do? John  Money believed that our gender is flexible and tried to change a twin's gender who was the result of a botched circumcision with counseling. They committed suicide.   That has been tried with complete failure and many suicides.  You do not seem to believe that a person can be born with a brain gender that is different from their biological gender, or maybe you do not believe that your brains have an innate gender.

https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/david-reimer-and-john-money-gender-reassignment-controversy-johnjoan-case

 
 
 
Jack_TX
9.1.13  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @9.1.12    2 months ago
Your claim is an act of psychological projection.

Sure.  Based on observation.

I am the one who is criticizing you because you see only binary so I can't possibly see everything as black and white. 

That makes negative amounts of sense and is hilariously ironic. 

There is no transgendered lobby. Just as there is no gay lobby or a secret gay agenda.

It's not a secret agenda. But Chick Fi La protests don't organize themselves. 

Many in the LGB community do not support trans' people because they claim that they have different goals.

Trans people are making things difficult for gay people, that's certain.

Would you prefer if the medical/psych' community counseled them to be CIS as reparative therapy tries to do?

I don't have a preference on the subject.  I just find it silly that we attempt to claim one condition is somehow different from all the other conditions with similar symptoms.

We clearly have little idea how to treat gender dysphoria.  The suicide and mental hospitalization rates after reassignment are still vastly elevated.  But we clearly have little idea how to treat addiction, mental illness or any other condition where we can't quantify the chemistry or physics of the situation.  Our understanding of mental health issues is woefully behind.

John  Money believed that our gender is flexible and tried to change a twin's gender who was the result of a botched circumcision with counseling. They committed suicide.  That has been tried with complete failure and many suicides.  

Every new post you introduce reinforces the idea that this is a serious mental illness.  I don't understand how you don't see that.

You do not seem to believe that a person can be born with a brain gender that is different from their biological gender, or maybe you do not believe that your brains have an innate gender.

I think we pretend far too much is established at birth.  I don't believe people are born gay or straight, and I don't believe people are born gender dysphoric.  The symptoms are strong "feelings" that physical gender and emotional gender are separate and incongruent.  I don't believe we're born with feelings that we're in the wrong body any more than we're born with feelings that make us afraid of spiders or feelings that we like to snow ski.

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.1.14  Tessylo  replied to  Jack_TX @9.1.9    2 months ago
'You do not practice manners'

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_90_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
10  Sean Treacy    2 months ago

[delete]

 
 
 
epistte
10.1  epistte  replied to  Sean Treacy @10    2 months ago
deleted for context, by Charger383  
 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
11  Buzz of the Orient    2 months ago

At least I'm not confused. I grew up learning and thinking that girls were girls and boys were boys and there actually were differences between them.  Now, perhaps due to advances in medical science, it seems that boys can become girls and girls can become boys - wow!  Human interchangeability. What's next?  This...?

half-horse-half-man-620x400.jpg

maui-splash-mermaid-tail_main-20.jpg

Or this....

Non-Homogenized-Milk-3.jpg

 
 
 
Tessylo
11.1  Tessylo  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @11    2 months ago

That's idiotic buzz.  

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
12  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉    2 months ago

I think all sports should be inclusive of all 150 genders. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
12.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @12    2 months ago

And there should be separate washrooms for each one. 

 
 
 
epistte
12.1.1  epistte  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @12.1    2 months ago
And there should be separate washrooms for each one. 

The plumber's union thanks you.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
12.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @12.1.1    2 months ago

LOL. Great reply.

 
 
 
charger 383
12.1.3  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @12.1    2 months ago

before it is over, pay toilets will return

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
12.1.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @12.1.3    2 months ago

And if you don't have a coin????

 
 
 
charger 383
12.1.5  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @12.1.4    2 months ago

you would be SOL

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
12.1.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @12.1.5    2 months ago

LOL - a most appropriate answer to my question.

 
 
 
epistte
12.2  epistte  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @12    2 months ago
I think all sports should be inclusive of all 150 genders. 

I can think of only 3 genders. Male, female, and androgynous/intersexxed/gender fluid. The remainder are sexual orientations or fetishes.   

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
12.2.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @12.2    2 months ago

If there are only going to be 4 washroom symbols I guess they should be:                                       

6cr5Eprzi.jpg

                                  question_mark.jpg

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.2  epistte  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @12.2.1    2 months ago

Why would you need more than 2 bathrooms that are disability equipped? Trans people don't want a separate bathroom.

Many countries make do with a single unisex bathroom, but that requires maturity and respect.

 Boys attacked girls in the girl's bathroom and the girl was expelled for defending herself.  Trans kids aren't the problem.

https://www.kansas.com/news/nation-world/national/article229328559.html

 
 
 
Tessylo
12.2.3  Tessylo  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @12.2.1    2 months ago

Again, idiotic.  

 
 
 
Jack_TX
12.2.4  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @12.2.2    2 months ago
Many countries make do with a single unisex bathroom, but that requires maturity and respect.

This is an excellent point.

If we weren't so stuck in 1850s Puritan life, we would have started constructing bathrooms differently a very long time ago, and transgender people would not present any sort of conundrum.

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.5  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2.4    2 months ago
If we weren't so stuck in 1850s Puritan life, we would have started constructing bathrooms differently a very long time ago, and transgender people would not present any sort of conundrum.

Trans' people were never a problem until Republican politicans needed a new minority for evangelicals to attack after LGBT marriage passed.  Trans people have been using the bathroom of their gender for 50+ years without an incident. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
12.2.6  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @12.2.5    2 months ago
Trans' people were never a problem until Republican politicans needed a new minority for evangelicals to attack after LGBT marriage passed.

You mean until boys started demanding access to the girls' showers.

  Trans people have been using the bathroom of their gender for 50+ years without an incident. 

Probably so.  Personally, I am utterly indifferent as to which bathroom they use.  If we designed bathrooms correctly, we would have private individual stalls around a common sink area....unless of course we're all now too delicate to wash our hands in front of each other.

However school locker rooms are a different matter, because of the showers....which are frequently just big rooms with multiple shower heads on the walls or on a big pipe in the middle of the room.  The lunacy of having kids all get naked together in a giant room is another matter for a different discussion, but that's the state of affairs and the cost of rebuilding all of those would be astronomical.

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.7  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2.6    2 months ago
You mean until boys started demanding access to the girls' showers.

Transgendered girls are not boys and they are also not transvestites.

Until you understand that trans girls see themselves as girls  and have very female drives, and not as boys, but you are determined to both categorize and judge someone by their external genitalia and their DNA instead of their psychological gender identity, Until you understand this critical fact of the issue of transgendered people, there is no point in continuing this conversation because gender identity is at the very core of the issue. 

Once you understand that fact of the issue all of your concerns are rendered irrelevant but you cannot get past that idea. I am tired of chipping my manicure and wearing out my keyboard due to the fact that you refuse to educate and accept basic concepts of human sexuality.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
12.2.8  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @12.2.7    2 months ago
Transgendered girls are not boys

The people you consider to be "transgendered girls", are either "boys with gender dysphoria", or "girls who have had an operation".  "Identifying" as something does not make you that something.  

and they are also not transvestites.

I have not claimed they are.

Until you understand

Here we go again with you failing to recognize the difference between "understand" and "agree".  Once again....get it through your head....everybody "understands" what you believe about transgendered people.

that trans girls see themselves as girls

They are not the only people involved.   

 but you are determined to both categorize and judge someone by their external genitalia and their DNA instead of their psychological gender identity,

Do I place the value of physical evidence over "feelings"?  Yes.  I thought we had established that we were not likely to agree on that.  I'm surprised you have forgotten.

Until you understand this critical fact of the issue of transgendered people, there is no point in continuing this conversation because gender identity is at the very core of the issue. 

By "understand", you appear to mean "agree with you entirely and accept each and every assertion no matter how completely nonsensical it may be". 

Once you understand that fact of the issue all of your concerns are rendered irrelevant but you cannot get past that idea.

You don't listen to anybody's concerns.  You're too busy telling us what we don't "understand".  How would you possibly know if they are addressed or not?

In a communal shower like those in use in high school locker rooms around the country, a boy with gender dysphoria will be "tackle out" in front of the girls.  It does not matter how he "identifies".  I cannot imagine any sane person believing such a situation would be a good idea.  

I am tired of chipping my manicure and wearing out my keyboard due to the fact that you refuse to educate and accept basic concepts of human sexuality.

Again, you have met a person who disagrees with you, and you don't know how to cope. 

I hate to break this to you, but the majority of people will agree with me that they would rather not have their daughters in the same shower with a naked boy beset by a mental condition so serious he may consider killing himself.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
12.2.9  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.3    2 months ago

It takes one to know one.

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.10  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2.8    2 months ago
The people you consider to be "transgendered girls", are either "boys with gender dysphoria", or "girls who have had an operation".  "Identifying" as something does not make you that something.  

They are transgender females with or without the operation. Trans boys were born female and  have a male gender identity.  Your secular and religious belifs do not change medical facts, no matter how hard to to to argue that they do. 

 You have replied to his thread 10+ times and still, you do not understand even the most basic facts of the situation. I am wasting my time trying to have a conversation with someone who refuses to educate themselves because they try to discuss policy. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
12.2.11  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @12.2.10    2 months ago
They are transgender females with or without the operation.

I'm very sure that is your opinion.   However, simply "identifying" as something does not make you that something.

Trans boys were born female

Do cite where this has been proven.

  Your secular and religious belifs do not change medical facts,

Do cite the medical "fact" where a person becomes a different gender simply by "identifying" as that gender.  Also, do identify my "religious beliefs".  I'm fascinated to learn what you think you know on a topic I haven't discussed.

no matter how hard to to to argue that they do. 

I'm telling you my interpretation.  You're the one arguing and demanding that I change to agree with your "religious beliefs".

 You have replied to his thread 10+ times and still, you do not understand

The irony of you not understanding the correct use of the word "understand" is simply hilarious.

even the most basic facts of the situation.

You keep using the word "fact".  But aren't you really talking about "opinion"?  Do you understand the difference?

I am wasting my time trying to have a conversation with someone who refuses to educate themselves because they try to discuss policy. 

I do hope that someday you will learn to engage in discourse with other people without personally attacking them every time they disagree with you.  

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.12  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2.11    2 months ago

Jack, this is another example of your tactic to try to redefine facts as opinions. Facts do not need you to agree with them to be facts. You are trying to deny reality and use that denial to turn reality on its head. I've seen you do this many times in many threads and our strawman tactic is has long since become tired and trite.

I'm very sure that is your opinion.   However, simply "identifying" as something does not make you that something.

They were born this way, despite your attempt to deny that it exists.

Do cite where this has been proven.

There are just as many transgendered boys who were born as female as there are trans females who were born in a male body. If trans girls must participate in sports as boys then that would mean that the trans boys will participate as girls. Do you think that girls will have a better chance of wining high school sporting events with trans boys who probably have more testosterone in their body then their CIS male classmates? 

How can you possibly attempt to discuss this subject without having basic knowledge of the subject? I have had more intelligent discussions of quantum physics with my cat as I have with you trying to discuss a subject that you have strong opinions of but you don't have a basic understanding of the subject.  Your opinion is not a fact, just because you strongly believe it.

Do cite the medical "fact" where a person becomes a different gender simply by "identifying" as that gender.  Also, do identify my "religious beliefs".  I'm fascinated to learn what you think you know on a topic I haven't discussed.

Transgendered people exist and always have as far as anthropologists can tell, despite your attempts to deny this fact.  They were born this way and don't just identify as the other gender when they make a public statement that they are trans.  They a were always trans but were just (wrongly) assumed to be CIS. Are people all born heterosexual until they choose to come out as gay or are they just assumed to be hetero' by others until they say otherwise?  Do you understand the critical difference in that statement?

 From what I have learned from your replies you are a member of the Southern Baptist Church.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
12.2.13  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @12.2.12    2 months ago
Jack, this is another example of your tactic to try to redefine facts as opinions

Translated:  I refuse to accept your opinions as "facts".

You are trying to deny reality and use that denial to turn reality on its head.

"Reality"....being "things you believe but can't prove". 

They were born this way,

Still waiting on the citation.

If trans girls must participate in sports as boys then that would mean that the trans boys will participate as girls.

Clarifying that "trans girls" are really "boys with gender dysphoria" and "trans boys" are actually "girls with gender dysphoria", then yes.   Girls play girls' sports and boys play boys' sports, with the same rules on performance-enhancing substances that everybody else has to live by.

Do you think that girls will have a better chance of wining high school sporting events with trans boys who probably have more testosterone in their body then their CIS male classmates? 

Kids on testosterone are prohibited from playing.

How can you possibly attempt to discuss this subject without having basic knowledge of the subject?

You mean like you attempting to discuss sports and how they're regulated?  Also, how can you not recognize that your definition of "basic knowledge" is simply "agreeing with your nonsense"?

Your opinion is not a fact, just because you strongly believe it.

The irony in this statement is positively galactic in scale.

They were born this way

So you repeatedly claim, and so you repeatedly fail to support with actual biology.  Many gay people claim to be born that way, despite a similar lack of evidence to actually support this assertion.  It's an old argument re-labeled for a new group of people.  The odd thing is that it's also a completely irrelevant point that even if it were proven true actually changes nothing.

I have had more intelligent discussions of quantum physics with my cat

I don't doubt you believe you have.  The idea that you talk to cats would explain some of the many logical difficulties you've created for yourself on this seed.

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.14  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2.13    2 months ago
Still waiting on the citation.

Trans people are born trans, despite your constant attempts to deny reality. There is absolutely no evidence that supports the claim that people choose to be trans or that it is a conscious choice, just as being LGB is not a choice. This is why John Money was unsuccessful in trying to change a boy into a girl because it isn't a choice and it cannot be changed, despite what you are determined to believe.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17563-z

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

There has not been a reputable claim in the past 40 years that says that people choose to be trans. medical science still doesn't know why but nobody with any medical credibility tries to claim that being LGBT is a choice. This is why reparative therapy doesn't work because they didn't choose to be trans so therapists/ doctors cannot use therapy make them hetero or CIS either. 

What is it about trans people that is so offensive to you that you want to deny reality and claim that it is a choice for them to be trans?  Do you want to deny the existence of a persons psychological gender identity because you do not understand that it is possible to have a body with the mind of the other gender, or is this argument driven by your religious beliefs? 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
12.2.15  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @12.2.14    2 months ago

You cited three sources.  None of them actually say people are born transgendered.  

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

From your source:  "Of course, behavior and experience shape brain anatomy, so it is impossible to say if these subtle differences are inborn."

Again, it doesn't matter at all whether they're born transgendered or not.

There is absolutely no evidence that supports the claim that people choose to be trans or that it is a conscious choice, just as being LGB is not a choice.

Please indicate where I have made such a claim.  

This is why John Money was unsuccessful in trying to change a boy into a girl because it isn't a choice and it cannot be changed, despite what you are determined to believe.

Again, please indicate where I have made any such claim.  Are you just getting emotional now and unable to follow the conversation? Are you confusing me with somebody else?  

What is it about trans people that is so offensive to you

Please indicate where I have said they offend me.  Are you just totally losing it here?

Do you want to deny the existence of a persons psychological gender identity because you do not understand that it is possible to have a body with the mind of the other gender, or is this argument driven by your religious beliefs?

I have no religious beliefs on the matter.  I simply think the idea many of the ideas you put forward about "gender identity" are far-fetched, at best.  They are also largely incongruent with how we define and treat other psychological conditions.

Again, I don't care at all what adults do to their bodies.  If people want to change their sex, I have absolutely zero objection or interest.  However I see no reason to alter societal rules for them.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
12.2.16  livefreeordie  replied to  epistte @12.2.14    2 months ago

No one is born transgender. That is just atheist nonsense. It is a mental disorder which is obvious to any rational person.

Former Transgender expresses regrets and why it’s mental illness

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2019/02/11/transgender-debate-transitioning-sex-gender-column/1894076002/

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.17  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @12.2.16    2 months ago

 The medical community disagrees with you about being trans is a mental disorder.  Where did you do your studies in psychology if you want to make this determination? 

That person was never transgendered. Their therapists didnt do their job to investigate this when they began psychologial therapy and medical transition.  There should have been huge red flags.

It started my transgender journey as a 4-year-old boy when my grandmother repeatedly, over several years, cross-dressed me in a full-length purple dress she made especially for me and told me how pretty I was as a girl. This planted the seed of gender confusion and led to my transitioning at age 42 to transgender female.

I lived as “Laura” for eight years, but, as I now know, transitioning doesn’t fix the underlying ailments.

Studies show that most people who want to live as the opposite sex have other psychological issues, such as depression or anxiety. In my case, I was diagnosed at age 40 with gender dysphoria and at age 50 with psychological issues due to childhood trauma.

Eventually, my parents found out, and my unsupervised visits to Grandma’s house ended. I thought my secret was safe, but my teenage uncle heard about it and felt I was fair game for taunting and sexual abuse. I wasn’t even 10 years old. If not for the purple dress, I believe I would not have been abused by my uncle.

Most Trans people in the US are Christians.

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.18  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2.15    2 months ago
You cited three sources.  None of them actually say people are born transgendered.  

If the brains of trans people are biologically different from CIS people of the same biological gender and their brains more closely resemble people of their gender identity then it cannot be a choice. There is a medical basis for this condition that is not a choice. Are you so blind that you cannot understand this fact? 

 Where is your proof that people choose to be transgendered? The fact that you don't want to or cannot understand the condition doesn't mean that they chose to be transgendered.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
12.2.19  livefreeordie  replied to  epistte @12.2.17    2 months ago

Nonsense on all of your response.  

And as to the last, there is NO evidence to back up your phony assertion and you can't be a Christian and live a life that is in complete opposition to Jesus and His teachings.  Jesus clearly taught that we are created male and female.  There are no mistakes, no do overs, the XY chromosomes tell the ultimate result.

Are there a tiny percentage of asexual persons?  yes and that is the cumulative result of sin upon mankind or parents who never should have had children, or their drug abuse

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.20  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @12.2.19    2 months ago
Nonsense on all of your response.  

That is a brilliant and well thought out response.

And as to the last, there is NO evidence to back up your phony assertion and you can't be a Christian and live a life that is in complete opposition to Jesus and His teachings.  Jesus clearly taught that we are created male and female.  There are no mistakes, no do overs, the XY chromosomes tell the ultimate result.

Where did Jesus condemn trans people?  Jesus didn't condemn either gays or trans people as the word eunuch can be translated either way. 

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it," (Matthew 19:12).

.

Are there a tiny percentage of asexual persons?  yes and that is the cumulative result of sin upon mankind or parents who never should have had children, or their drug abuse.

Where is your proof that intersexxed people are the result of sin or drug abuse instead of statistically stable genetic variation?  My nephew has a minor level of insexxed biology, so your comment is a personal attack. 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
12.2.21  livefreeordie  replied to  epistte @12.2.20    2 months ago

Jesus clearly condemned all sex outside of the marriage of a man and  a woman including homosexual behavior.  As God, He is the same from before He created all things, when He walked the earth in the form of a man, today, and for all eternity.  He has NEVER changed his moral standards.

Marriage predates history because it was established by Jesus when He created Adam and Eve. He let the world know that was exactly what He intended when He came in the form of man and declared that and other truths. He also defined what defiles a person before God and sexual immorality including homosexual acts are within the things He declared as wrong.

Jesus who is God most certainly made clear what is acceptable and not acceptable affirmed in Matthew 19 that when He created Adam and Eve, He established marriage as consisting of a man and a woman. Jesus who is God most certainly made clear what is acceptable and not acceptable. He addressed specifically that sexual sins including homosexuality defiles you in Matthew 15:18-20

He also confirmed that which Genesis states that God created mankind male and female, period.

“And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He whomade them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said,‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? “ Matthew 19:4-5

“But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man. ”Fornication as defined by the law of Mose that Jesus gave to Moses was any sexual relations outside of the marriage of a man and a woman.

In Matthew 5:20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Pornea as used in the Greek Septuagint text of the Old Testament and in the Greek New Testament -Sexual immorality which includes homosexuality is clearly part of that definition and no amount of twisting words can change that.

All of these fell under the definition of fornication

"...against [a man] having union with his mother."

"...against [a man] having union with his sister."

"...against [a man] having union with the wife of his father."

"...against [a man] having union with another man's wife."

"...against [a man] copulating with a beast."

"...against a woman copulating with a beast."

"...against [a man] lying carnally with a male."

"...against [a man] lying carnally with his father."

"...against [a man] lying carnally with his father's brother."

"...against engaging in erotic conduct that may lead to a prohibited union. [That is, petting by persons whose marriage would be illicit.]"

While the Torah does not explicitly mention lesbianism, the Sages included it, along with other illicit sexual practices, to fall within the proscription of following in the ways of Egyptian traditions (Sifra Leviticus 18:3)

 
 
 
livefreeordie
12.2.22  livefreeordie  replied to  epistte @12.2.20    2 months ago

It is not a personal attack because first of all I know nothing about you or your family and made no personal attack in my statement

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.23  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @12.2.22    2 months ago
It is not a personal attack because first of all I know nothing about you or your family and made no personal attack in my statement

You made this decorative statement about intersexxed people. How many parents of intersexxed people do you know, if you claim that it isn't a personal attack?

Are there a tiny percentage of asexual persons?  yes and that is the cumulative result of sin upon mankind or parents who never should have had children, or their drug abuse.

The proper response would be to admit that you were wrong and apologize for your ignorance and hatred.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
12.2.24  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @12.2.18    2 months ago
If the brains of trans people are biologically different from CIS people of the same biological gender and their brains more closely resemble people of their gender identity then it cannot be a choice.

There are other possibilities besides "born this way" and "choice".  Please do endeavor to broaden your thought process.

There is a medical basis for this condition that is not a choice. Are you so blind that you cannot understand this fact? 

Are you so blind that you cannot understand you are pretending I have said something I clearly haven't?  Do you do this when you talk to your cat, as well?  

 Where is your proof that people choose to be transgendered?

Alongside my statement that they choose to be transgendered.....deep in your imagination....next to your talking cat.

The fact that you don't want to or cannot understand the condition doesn't mean that they chose to be transgendered.

Out of curiosity, are you attempting some sort of world record for number of misuses of the word 'fact' in a given period of time?   

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.25  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2.24    2 months ago
There are other possibilities besides "born this way" and "choice".  Please do endeavor to broaden your thought process.

Where is the scientific evidence to support your claim that transgender people who were not born trans, who chose to be trans or your alternative third way?  You are making a claim so the onus is on you to support it. It's not my job to go on a wild goose chase to locate your logical chimera.

 You seem to be desperate to find a reason other than they were born that way to legitimize your denial of equal rights as both males or females in their identified gender.  You also want to claim that they are mentally ill, despite the fact that medical science doesn't agree with you.  It would be in the monetary interest of medical science to claim that they are mentally ill so they would be forced into expensive therapy, but ethically there is no evidence to support that decision. It is as big of a transgender lobby that forced the APA to declare that it isn't a mental illness as there is of a secret and subversive LGBT agenda.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
12.2.26  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @12.2.25    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
epistte
12.2.27  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2.26    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
It Is ME
13  It Is ME    2 months ago

Equality !

512

 
 
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