One of the Biggest Arguments Against Reparations Is Based on a Lie

  
Via:  john-russell  •  4 months ago  •  167 comments

One of the Biggest Arguments Against Reparations Is Based on a Lie
By 1984, when most of the GI Bill mortgages had matured, the median white household had a net worth of more than $39,000 compared to less than $3,400 for the median black household, according to historian Ira Katnelson. “Imagine two countries, one the richest in the world, and the other amongst its most destitute,” writes Katznelson in his history of the era,When Affirmative Action Was White. “Then suppose that a global program of foreign aid transferred well over $100 billion, but to the...

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.....But maybe the most insidious myth underlying Johnson’s anti-reparations argument is the idea that white people are winning the proverbial “foot race” without institutional help. This would be news to the beneficiaries of President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s New Deal, for example, the spoils of which were denied to most black Americans as a concession to white segregationist congressmen.

An unprecedented government investment in social welfare, the New Deal created union protections for workers, established social security for older Americans, and insured home loans, funded college, and provided job training and employment opportunities for military veterans, more than half of whom were men in their 20s and 30s. It amounted cumulatively to the most significant government handout in American history. And the results were  devastating  for most black Americans.

By 1984, when most of the GI Bill mortgages had matured, the median white household had a net worth of more than $39,000 compared to less than $3,400 for the median black household, according to historian Ira Katnelson. “Imagine two countries, one the richest in the world, and the other amongst its most destitute,” writes Katznelson in his history of the era, When Affirmative Action Was White . “Then suppose that a global program of foreign aid transferred well over $100 billion, but to the rich nation, not the poor. That is exactly what happened in the United States as a result of the cumulative impact of the most important domestic policies of the 1930s and 1940s.”

All of which unfolded not while black people were being left to their own devices, but while they were being actively subjected to segregation and terrorism at the hands of their white neighbors and police. That is to say nothing of the extent to which housing and employment discrimination so narrowed the field of available opportunities that for centuries — and continuing in many arenas to this day — white Americans could expect near-monopolistic access to America’s most prized institutions and privileges without having to worry about competing with black people.

And yet, as Representative Johnson aptly demonstrated on Wednesday, many white Americans still insist that they made good by virtue of their own grit, determination, and self-reliance. This ignores history, but they seem to have no problem profiting so richly from societal largesse without suffering empty, meaningless lives as a result. It seems reasonable, then, to expect that if black people were paid reparations, they would also figure it out. Perhaps people like Johnson can more readily acknowledge that they, too, are the sum of investments — rather than insist that they are self-made and deny others aid that pales in comparison to the advantages that sustain them.

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JohnRussell
1  seeder  JohnRussell    4 months ago

Institutional racism robbed blacks of the ability to accumulate family wealth because of policies undertaken by the US and state and local governments. 

The politicians in Washington and a vast portion of the public dont understand this. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
1.1  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @1    4 months ago

As usual, more unsubstantiated BS from you know who, playing the tiresome race card yet again.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
1.1.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1    4 months ago
more unsubstantiated BS

Do you deny that black Americans "were being actively subjected to segregation and terrorism at the hands of their white neighbors and police."

Are you claiming that "housing and employment discrimination" didn't narrow "the field of available opportunities that for centuries — and continuing in many arenas to this day — white Americans could expect near-monopolistic access to America’s most prized institutions and privileges without having to worry about competing with black people"?

 
 
 
Greg Jones
1.1.2  Greg Jones  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @1.1.1    4 months ago

That's back when the Democrats controlled everything.

You know, the ones who fought the Civil Rights Act of 1964 tooth and nail.

That is not happening now to any extent.

 
 
 
Tessylo
1.1.3  Tessylo  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1.2    4 months ago
As usual, more unsubstantiated BS from you know who

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
1.1.4  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1.2    4 months ago
You know, the ones who fought the Civil Rights Act of 1964 tooth and nail.

You mean the minority of Democrats? Because the majority were the ones who wrote the civil rights act, supported, passed it in both the house and senate and then signed it into law by a Democrat President from Texas. Why are there still mentally deficient folk who continue to refute facts and come up with some bizarre false narrative? Do they think no one will look back at the actual record? Or are they so brain fried by religious conservative false narratives that they truly imagine it as fact? I supposed it doesn't really matter why some people are so monumentally wrong, the only thing that matters is that they are in fact wrong.

1964 Civil Rights Act Vote By party and region:

Note: "Southern", as used in this section, refers to members of Congress from the eleven states that had made up the Confederate States of America in the American Civil War. "Northern" refers to members from the other 39 states, regardless of the geographic location of those states.

The original House version:

  • Southern Democrats: 7–87   (7–93%)
  • Southern Republicans: 0–10   (0–100%)
  • Northern Democrats: 145–9   (94–6%)
  • Northern Republicans: 138–24   (85–15%)

The Senate version:

  • Southern Democrats: 1–20   (5–95%)
  • Southern Republicans: 0–1   (0–100%)
  • Northern Democrats: 45–1   (98–2%)
  • Northern Republicans: 27–5   (84–16%)

The 1964 bill was first proposed by Democrat President John F. Kennedy in his "Report to the American People on Civil Rights" on June 11, 1963. Kennedy sought legislation "giving all Americans the right to be served in facilities which are open to the public—hotels, restaurants, theaters, retail stores, and similar establishments"—as well as "greater protection for the right to vote".

"The conference bill was passed by both houses of Congress, and was signed into law by (Democrat) President Johnson on July 2, 1964"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

So, for those who apparently can't count:

House Vote:

Democrats who voted for it: 152

Republicans who voted for it: 138

Senate Vote:

Democrats who voted for it: 46

Republicans who voted for it: 28

So while some Dixiecrat bigots fought the bill "tooth and nail", the majority of Democrats voted for it and without their support it would never have been written or passed. The tired attempts to paint all Democrats with the acts of a few worthless pieces of racist filth that originated with an entirely different "Southern Democrat" party that had fought to preserve slavery pre-civil war while the "Northern Democrat" party fought against slavery, is the height of ignorance and failed attempt at manipulating history to obfuscate the party shift that occurred from 1964 to 1994 when the South Dixiecrats had completed the transition into Republican strongholds. I suppose knowing those worthless pieces of racist filth had infiltrated your party must be the impetus for crafting the false narrative to throw people off the stinky scent of bigotry.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
2  Sean Treacy    4 months ago

So now liberals are calling social security a government handout. My how times have changed.

The argument boils down to "racial discrimination generations ago was bad, therefore we want to racially discriminate against people not involved in that discrimination, in favor people who weren't themselves discriminated against."  As if more racial discrimination by the government will somehow make things better..

What's the cumulative value, do you think of, mandated set asides, affirmative action, development grants etc... that federal and state governments have designed for blacks overt the last 50 years? 

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
2.1  The Magic Eight Ball  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    4 months ago
So now liberals are calling social security a government handout.

giving us back our money IS a handout... LOL

 
 
 
†hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh
2.1.1  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh  replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @2.1    4 months ago

Well when you put it that way....

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
JohnRussell
2.1.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @2.1    4 months ago

You are off topic. What a shock, lol. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
2.1.3  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.2    4 months ago

Once again, you have failed to define a "topic".

It appears to be primarily race baiting and making stuff up.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
2.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    4 months ago

Black families were deprived of the ability to accumulate family "wealth". And it was systematic. 

I don't think there will be "reparations", but the idea that there is no basis for it is absurd. 

 
 
 
Sunshine
2.2.1  Sunshine  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2    4 months ago
but the idea that there is no basis for it is absurd. 

You can give your money, no one is preventing you from it.

 
 
 
CB
2.3  CB   replied to  Sean Treacy @2    4 months ago

Sean, the only question you should ask is this: Is this country doing all that it can to permit black people and other permanent minority groups advance in in systems?

If you say yes, then you need not think about it deeper. If you think maybe or no,. . . . well now. . . .

 
 
 
livefreeordie
2.3.1  livefreeordie  replied to  CB @2.3    4 months ago

I say yes and the facts bear me out.  In addition and anecdotally, I have a black stepson who is a multimillionaire now, another black stepson who with his wife own a family counseling service (both have advanced degrees in Psychology). And a 3rd who earns a 6 figure income in law enforcement. All are degrees, two through the GI Bill.  

There is a myth perpetuated by the left that African Americans are largely shut out of opportunity for success in the US

Here are some facts to dispel this myth  

The following is from 1986 to give context. The numbers of African Americans in leadership in the US Military has only increased since then

“Blacks occupy more management positions in the military than they do in business, education, journalism, government, or any other significant sector of American society. The armed services still have race problems, but these are minimal compared with the problems that exist in other institutions, public and private.

By the fall of 1985 blacks accounted for 13 percent of enlisted personnel in the Navy, 17 percent in the Air Force, 20 percent in the Marine Corps, and 30 percent in the Army. Each branch of the military has a distinctive history and reputation with respect to blacks. Of the four services the Navy has been the slowest to recruit large numbers of blacks (although today it recruits actively). The Army has always been at the forefront. Ten percent of its officers today are black, a proportion twice that for the Air Force and Marine Corps and three times that for the Navy. The Army, with some 776,000 men and women on active duty, is by far the largest of the armed services.”

A 1982 study published by Martin Binkin and Mark J. Eitelberg, of the Brookings Institution, showed that an astonishing 42 percent of all qualified black youths enter the military, whereas 14 percent of their white counterparts do. Since the end of the draft the proportion of high school graduates among blacks entering the Army has consistently exceeded that among whites, although the gap narrowed in the 1980s with the overall improvement in recruiting. In 1985, 95.4 percent of black men joining the Army had high school diplomas, in comparison with 87.6 percent of whites. Indeed, the Army's enlisted ranks are the only significant social arena in which black educational levels (though not test scores) surpass those of whites.

But blacks who return to civilian life after being honorably discharged earn significantly more than blacks who have not served in the military. The most carefully crafted research on the matter has been conducted by Harley L. Browning, Sally C. Lopreato, and Dudley L. Poston, Jr., a team of sociologists at the University of Texas at Austin. They have found that white veterans with a high school education fare the same in civilian life as their nonveteran counterparts, but that military service has a substantial positive impact on men who have not finished high school or who are black (or Hispanic).”

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1986/05/success-story-blacks-in-the-military/306160/

Substantial rise of African Americans in elected office

From a 2013 Study

“The number of African-American elected officials has also risen dramatically since researchers started tracking it in 1970. Forty-three years ago there were 1,469 black elected officials nationwide, according to the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies; in 2011 there were roughly 10,500 such officials.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/08/22/whats-changed-for-african-americans-since-1963-by-the-numbers/?utm_term=.1def447d4661

And this important statistic  

More than 35,000 Black Millionaires

https://libraries.udmercy.edu/features/page.php?item_id=430

 
 
 
Dulay
2.3.2  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @2.3.1    4 months ago
And this important statistic  More than 35,000 Black Millionaires

So African Americans are 12.4 % of the population and .23% or the millionaires in America. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
2.3.3  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Dulay @2.3.2    4 months ago
So African Americans are 12.4 % of the population and .23% or the millionaires in America.

not bad for lazy people    s. 

 
 
 
Dulay
2.3.4  Dulay  replied to  JohnRussell @2.3.3    4 months ago

Actually, it's a pretty dismal percentage for a minority that's allegedly on a even playing field. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
2.3.5  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Dulay @2.3.4    4 months ago

I would think so. 

 
 
 
CB
2.3.6  CB   replied to  livefreeordie @2.3.1    4 months ago
Is this country doing all that it can to permit black people and other permanent minority groups to advance in its systems?

"All" is the operative word. I never stated Black Americans or if you wish African-Americans, women, homosexuals, and other permanent and semi-permanent minority groups are not advancing people. That is your misunderstanding of what I am sharing here.

Advancement. This, these individuals/groups do by overcoming man-made (institutional) hindrances, blockages, and other assortments of evil activities put in place by those in power who percolate up obstructions.

Behold the minority millions and billionaires—there is nothing wrong with that! However, these individual achievers and their financial successes does not change one iota how it is some conservatives would like to restore repressive policies on minorities in our mutual society. Think of it as, creating permanent underclasses. T

Watch the conservative track record. Watch the tone of conservative debate/policies. Watch what conservatives try to remove from minorities in large swaths with political strokes of presidential, congressional, and legal pens.

Another way to look at this is, minorities are advancing in-spite of conservatism into the higher echelons of society, because they are cream too. And, that always rises to the top!

 
 
 
Greg Jones
2.3.7  Greg Jones  replied to  CB @2.3    4 months ago

Blacks and Hispanics are better off NOW than they have ever been. If anyone thinks otherwise, please lay out the facts and details.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
2.3.8  Greg Jones  replied to  Dulay @2.3.4    4 months ago

Why do you persist in thinking the playing field is unlevel.

The left wing seemingly  tries its best to hold them down and exploit them of political purposes.

 
 
 
CB
2.3.9  CB   replied to  Greg Jones @2.3.7    4 months ago

Of course Blacks and Hispanics are better off NOW. What is your point? The question is,

Is this country doing all that it can to permit black people and other permanent minority groups to advance in its systems?

 
 
 
CB
2.3.10  CB   replied to  Greg Jones @2.3.8    4 months ago

And for what political purposes does the Republican Party want the majority of Black voters to come over? Anybody can bandy around jingoisms about rebel pride, independence, and liberty. Anybody can do that. They are just so many words rolling off the tongue.

What is clear is Black Americans and other minorities are closely watching republican and conservative policies and activities and overall finding fraud in what these people say and do. You can't brush that aside with platitudes and fake symbols of patriotism.

Live up to a consistent standard of political truth-telling first and it will speak volumes for itself! Start by admitting that President Donald Trump is a 'put up job" to pass conservative policies only - whether polices good or not for the country!

 
 
 
Greg Jones
2.3.11  Greg Jones  replied to  CB @2.3.9    4 months ago
Is this country doing all that it can to permit black people and other permanent minority groups to advance in its systems?

It sure has, for the reasons that others have cited, which you well know. The liberals control the education system now, that's a good place to learn how to advance, but these so called experts can't seem to teach young people to learn.

If young blacks and Hispanics are watching the current antics of the democrat party, they are learning what sorry pieces of poo so many of them are, why they can't or won't govern, and why they care so little about minorities in general, except to spew self serving platitudes. .

 
 
 
Dulay
2.3.12  Dulay  replied to  Greg Jones @2.3.8    4 months ago
Why do you persist in thinking the playing field is unlevel.

Because in my over 60 years, I haven't been convinced otherwise.

I LIVED in the Chicago getto and grew up going to public schools and SAW with my own eyes the wealth disparity, even within the public school system. My grandfather didn't inherit anything from his parents and he didn't have much to leave his family. None of his children raised into 'upper class' though my uncle got close yet ONLY because he worked for the RR who paid for his Masters degree. 

The left wing seemingly  tries its best to hold them down and exploit them of political purposes.

Claptrap. 

 
 
 
Dulay
2.3.13  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @2.3.1    4 months ago

BTW, it's really astonishing that you think that the following is a good thing:

Blacks occupy more management positions in the military than they do in business, education, journalism, government, or any other significant sector of American society. The armed services still have race problems, but these are minimal compared with the problems that exist in other institutions, public and private.

That statement does NOT reflect well on our society. 

 
 
 
Dulay
2.3.14  Dulay  replied to  Greg Jones @2.3.11    4 months ago
The liberals control the education system now, that's a good place to learn how to advance, but these so called experts can't seem to teach young people to learn.

They DO?

That's funny since the GOP's first target was the school boards all over the country.

Hell the religious conservatives went after textbooks and for 4 decades, a couple from Texas basically controlled the content of just about all of the textbooks used in schools all over the country. Look up Mel and Norma Gabler. Many of those textbooks are still being used in schools today. 

If young blacks and Hispanics are watching the current antics of the democrat party,  jrSmiley_90_smiley_image.gif

If they're watching the current 'antics' of the GOP they'll see Trump lying too often to count, bragging about grabby women by the pussy, mocking people with disabilities, calling for the jailing of his opponents, praising people for not flipping on him, calling just about everyone in our IC leakers or traitors, tell his supporters to beat up citizens who oppose him, calling the media the enemy of the state, admitting that he would accept help from foreign countries to win in 2020 and praising the most murderous and abhorrent foreign leaders on the planet. 

I could go on but you get the idea. 

Then they see the Majority leader of the Senate say that Democrats pick on Trump for every little thing... 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
2.3.15  Sean Treacy  replied to  Dulay @2.3.14    4 months ago
They DO?

Yes.  

 
 
 
Dulay
2.3.16  Dulay  replied to  Sean Treacy @2.3.15    4 months ago

Not in the county that I live or the one my mom does. Both are controlled by conservatives. 

Maybe the GOP 'flew over' your little part of the country. If you don't like the school board in your district, run for it or find a conservative you can vote for. 

 
 
 
CB
2.3.17  CB   replied to  Greg Jones @2.3.11    4 months ago

You mean if Black and Hispanic youths are watching the current strategy of the Republican Party to choose guns and the NRA over elementary and higher grade level youths such that no public venues or house of worships in this land are safe or a sanctuary? These youths are the ones you are banking on walking away from the democrats?

You know nothing about how people truly suffer republican and conservative assaults upon their persons! Conservatives are preservationists who want to be in power so as to wield control over other groups in our country. Conservatives use jingoisms about freedom and wave around bi- ass flags at conferences and venues - when truth be told what conservatives really want is other people to live life as they live it. As conservatives.

To be just an extension of a one-sided diamond lacking facets.

What kind of freedom is that?

 
 
 
livefreeordie
2.3.18  livefreeordie  replied to  CB @2.3.6    4 months ago

I don’t know of a single conservative who wants to repress ANYONE’S economic opportunities.  That is contrary to conservative and especially conservative Christian principles.

i sincerely doubt you can name anyone to back up you offensive accusation 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
2.3.19  livefreeordie  replied to  Dulay @2.3.13    4 months ago

It reflects very well for African Americans but negatively for white Americans who fail to take advantage of the opportunities the military offers

 
 
 
CB
2.3.20  CB   replied to  livefreeordie @2.3.18    4 months ago

Strawman take-down. Get over it. I did not write anything about economic opportunities- so where is your "offensive accusation" now? On the otherhand, conservatives do want to control the money and wealth in this country, so as to dish out as little as possible to the ordinary folks, while 'overdosing' those parties who meet and exceed their iron-clad strictures in society.

Conservatives are preservationists who want to be in power so as to wield control over other groups in our country. Oh, it's true. It's true. Conservatives suppress, repress, and are actively against any policy or persons which do not fit in their narrowly defined worldview.

Stop struggling: the truth will find conservatism out and set it free.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
2.3.21  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @2.3.20    4 months ago
Conservatives are preservationists who want to be in power so as to wield control over other groups in our country.

Specifically, control over those groups' seemingly unlimited impulses to spend other people's money.  

and are actively against any policy or persons which do not fit in their narrowly defined worldview.

That worldview being "a desire to actually get to keep most of what we've earned" combined with "objection to spending tons of money simply to boost liberal 'feelings'".

Stop struggling: the truth will find conservatism out and set it free.

It already is free.  That's why leftists are known as "angry".

 
 
 
Dulay
2.3.22  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @2.3.19    4 months ago
It reflects very well for African Americans but negatively for white Americans who fail to take advantage of the opportunities the military offers

The military employs about 2% of the population. Business, education, journalism and government employ a vastly larger percentage of the population and as your post indicated, African Americans aren't doing as well in those kinds of occupations. 

So no LFOD, it isn't 'very well for African Americans'.

 
 
 
CB
2.3.23  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @2.3.21    4 months ago

Yeah (dryly) that: How much is  2018 - 12 Billion and 2019 - 16 Billion combined to farmers under a republican president? Jack_TX, how much of that is YOUR money?

Makes you shiver in your freedom gear, yes?

 
 
 
dennis smith
2.3.24  dennis smith  replied to  CB @2.3.9    4 months ago

The government for decades has incorporated changes designed to help level the playing field. Write your congressmen and women if you don't think enough has been done. 

Reparations will not solve the problem, people will. 

 
 
 
dennis smith
2.3.25  dennis smith  replied to  CB @2.3.10    4 months ago

As usual, another "Blame Trump" when all else fails 

 
 
 
CB
2.3.26  CB   replied to  dennis smith @2.3.24    4 months ago
Reparations will not solve the problem, people will. 

How do you know that either reparations or people will or will not solve this problem? You just waltz in an declare a thing, "people will." Perhaps reparations AND people together can solve this age-old problem.

It may be that paying reparations to children of former slaves may wipe out the shades of inferiority some Black Americans (not all) feel for not be respected before and after slavery. (That's a leveling of the playing field.) In addition, the children of former slave masters can finally be delivered in some significant way of the curse of leaving this "problem" festering for so long in our national collective psyche. (That's a leveling of the playing field too.)

It just may be both 'sides' will have a sense of relief at that time, that one side cared enough to act and the other side accepted whatsoever is extended out to them.

 
 
 
CB
2.3.27  CB   replied to  dennis smith @2.3.25    4 months ago

FYI, all else has not fail. Trump is a big problem. Here's the proof: 10,000 plus lies in two-years plus of a Trump administration—all from the mouth of the President of the United States. One could imagine TRUTH IS RUNNING ON FUMES in the Trump White House.

We can be forgiven for not know what Trump says that plays itself out as truth!

No "blame Trump" here. He is guilty as charged. Worse, he appears to not have a care in the world about anything he does right or wrong.

 
 
 
Dulay
2.3.28  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @2.3.18    4 months ago
I don’t know of a single conservative who wants to repress ANYONE’S economic opportunities.  That is contrary to conservative and especially conservative Christian principles.

Which is why the GOP overwhelmingly supports a $15 minimum wage. /s

i sincerely doubt you can name anyone to back up you offensive accusation 

I sincerely doubt that you can cogently refute it.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
2.3.29  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @2.3.23    4 months ago
Yeah (dryly) that: How much is  2018 - 12 Billion and 2019 - 16 Billion combined to farmers under a republican president? Jack_TX, how much of that is YOUR money?

A damn sight more than it is most other people's.  That's the point.

Reparations are just one more item on the long laundry list of things bleeding hearts want to spend money on so they can "feel better".  It's like a meth addiction with these people.  They don't care what it costs, what the responsible decision would be, and they sure as fuck don't care whether or not it actually helps the intended targets.  They want to "feel better", that's the only thing they care about, and they get crazy angry when anybody tries to stand in their way.  

 
 
 
CB
2.3.30  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @2.3.29    4 months ago

Spare me your talking points. You can't prove any of it is yours. That's the point. This is an anonymous forum - we talk here. We do not count our life truths to each other. So no one is going to seek verification of your tax records. Simply pay your fair share of taxes and leave it to your elected officials to determine what expenditures are reasonable and suitable in what measure for the needs of this country.

Oh and an nice dodge. Can't criticize a republican president or is it Trump's teflon coating which stopped you in your tracks there?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
2.3.31  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @2.3.30    4 months ago
Spare me your talking points.

As though you intend to spare me yours?? 

You can't prove any of it is yours.  This is an anonymous forum - we talk here. We do not count our life truths to each other. So no one is going to seek verification of your tax records.

As I pay incomes taxes, some of it is mine.  Given that almost half of American households pay no income tax at all, it would not take very much money at all for me to be paying "more than most people'.  

Simply pay your fair share of taxes and leave it to your elected officials to determine what expenditures are reasonable and suitable in what measure for the needs of this country.

I'm already paying more than my "fair share"

Oh and an nice dodge.

You as well.  Reparations are like farm subsidies?  Nice try.

Can't criticize a republican president or is it Trump's teflon coating which stopped you in your tracks there?

I comment on Trump as little as possible.  Almost nothing ever said about him is intelligent in any way, shape or form, so I just let the angry morons battle it out.  

 
 
 
CB
2.3.32  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @2.3.31    4 months ago
As I pay incomes taxes, some of it is mine.  Given that almost half of American households pay no income tax at all, it would not take very much money at all for me to be paying "more than most people'.   I'm already paying more than my "fair share"

That's nice, Jack. If you intend to drone on about it: Be Bold! Ask Perrie for an exception to post real time documents. (Rhetorical, Perrie and moderators!)

'All talk and no documents' may just need a cold shower to cool down.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
2.3.33  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @2.3.32    4 months ago

OK...so you're not going to "lose your cool" or somebody else needs to "cool down".  That's an awful lot of talk about "feelings".  

 
 
 
CB
2.3.34  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @2.3.33    4 months ago

Oh Wow! Jack's 'performing.' This is a study in "game-ness" right here in real time. . .  Look up, everyone!

 
 
 
Jack_TX
2.3.35  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @2.3.34    4 months ago

It really didn't take long for you to run out of ideas on this topic and resort to personal attack.

In fairness, there really isn't much to work with beyond "let's see if we can squeeze some cash out of all this white liberal guilt". 

Have you thought about GoFundMe?

 
 
 
CB
2.3.36  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @2.3.35    4 months ago

Gameness. yeah.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
2.4  Jack_TX  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    4 months ago
The argument boils down to "racial discrimination generations ago was bad, therefore we want to racially discriminate against people not involved in that discrimination, in favor people who weren't themselves discriminated against."  As if more racial discrimination by the government will somehow make things better..

Yes.  You understand exactly.

 
 
 
†hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh
3  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh    4 months ago

Social Security does in fact rob the poor of the ability to accumulate wealth and pass it to family.

Many on this forum would like to confiscate wealth upon ones death as seen on Bob's recent estate tax article.

Awful and racist policy.

Despite that, no one is getting reparations.

It's another fantasy meant to pander.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1  Dulay  replied to  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh @3    4 months ago
Social Security does in fact rob the poor of the ability to accumulate wealth and pass it to family.

How so? 

 
 
 
Dulay
3.2  Dulay  replied to  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh @3    4 months ago

Your silence is deafening...

 
 
 
CB
4  CB     4 months ago

James Brown "I don't want nobody to give me nothing (Prt 1)"

Chorus x 4

Don't give me degeneration
Give me true communication
Don't give me sorrow
I want equal opportunity
To live tomorrow

Give me schools
And give me better books
So I can read about myselfAnd gain my truly looks

Chorus x 2

"font-family:'times new roman', times, serif;font-size:14pt;" >Some of us try
As hard as we can
We don't want no sympathy
We just wanna be a man

Chorus x 2

We got talents we can useOn our side of townLet's get our heads togetherAnd get it up from the ground

When some of us make moneyPeople hear about our peopleGotta grab out a honeyForget about honeyDo you now, let me hear, hey

Come on, I got to have itCome on, I need itI got to have it, come onI got to have it, oh, ha

Lordy, Lordy, LordyLordy, Lordy, Lordy

Play with your bad selfCome on, babyCome hereGotta get it

Got to get myself together

James Brown "I don't want nobody to give me nothing (Prt 2)"

So many things I got to do
So many things I got to do
I don't need no help from you

Tell everybody, everybody else
All of these things, baby
I got to do it myself
Come on, hey

I got to have it
I, said I, said I
said I, said I, I

Chorus x 2

With you I'll sweat and blood
To put out every fire and block off every plug

Chorus x 3

I'm not gonna tell
You what to do
I'm not gonna raise a fuss
But before you make another move
Let's start by taking care of us

Chorus x 2

Kids get that education
And don't you take no more
'Cause if we gonna get
This thing together
Then you got to carry the ball

Chorus x 3

Can you dig the groove?
Can you make the move?
Can you dig the say?
Can you make the pay?

Don't need no cupid
Don't be no stupid
Come on

We, we don't have time to hate
We need all the time we got
To try to communicate

Song Discussions is protected by U.S. Patent 9401941. Other patents pending.

The year was 1969. James Brown was writing "consciousness" music to a burgeoning race of people, striving to understand potential and possibilities in this "land of milk and honey."

The problem is there were then and now conservatives in the land which won't get out of the way of all kinds of minority groups (blacks, women, poor people, homosexuals, indigenous peoples, because in their frame of reference our mutual Constitution does not guarantee exceedingly great rights and privileges to subsets in the population.

The question is this: Has the door ever really opened up?

 
 
 
Greg Jones
4.1  Greg Jones  replied to  CB @4    4 months ago

Wide as it's ever been. Even people who have "gender identity issues" have special rights now. jrSmiley_99_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
Dulay
4.1.1  Dulay  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1    4 months ago
Even people who have "gender identity issues" have special rights now.

Cite one. 

 
 
 
CB
4.1.2  CB   replied to  Greg Jones @4.1    4 months ago

These people had to push pass some conservative ASS blocking the door only to have those conservatives fall back into blocking posture once they passed through! So, no! Conservatives and Republicans have never opened the door to anybody who is not willing to be - live as a conservative.

 
 
 
Dulay
4.1.3  Dulay  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1    4 months ago

So just another making proclamations without proof. Well done. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
4.1.4  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.1.2    4 months ago
These people had to push pass some conservative ASS blocking the door only to have those conservatives fall back into blocking posture once they passed through! So, no! Conservatives and Republicans have never opened the door to anybody who is not willing to be - live as a conservative.

Why is it somebody else's job to open your door?

 
 
 
CB
4.1.5  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @4.1.4    4 months ago

You meant blocking the door, yes? Conservatives and Republicans are good blockers—it's what they do.  Open doors for liberals? Only in a conservative's shattered dreams!

 
 
 
Jack_TX
4.1.6  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.1.5    4 months ago
You meant blocking the door, yes? Conservatives and Republicans are good blockers—it's what they do.  Open doors for liberals? Only in a conservative's shattered dreams!

You complained that "conservatives have never opened the door".  Why is it their job to open your door?

 
 
 
CB
4.1.7  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @4.1.6    4 months ago

That went 'whooshing" by you did it? I am not going to turn that into a (dry) treatise, Jack_Tx.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
4.1.8  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.1.7    4 months ago
That went 'whooshing" by you did it?

I'm sure you were hoping it did.

I am not going to turn that into a (dry) treatise, Jack_Tx.

No, you're going to dodge that point at all costs. 

Whatever happens, you must never let people actually contemplate the idea that it may not really be their responsibility to fix your problems.

 
 
 
CB
4.1.9  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @4.1.8    4 months ago

*Yawn. Go on: sputter.

 
 
 
bbl-1
5  bbl-1    4 months ago

Reparations?  Really?

The only reparation due and deserved are for the American people and their government from the inequality forced upon them by Supply Side Economics.

Reparations for America's past history of slavery?  That is a 'Hail Mary pass' and straight out of Putin's playbook to create even more division in America.

 
 
 
†hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh
5.1  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh  replied to  bbl-1 @5    4 months ago

You are entitled to nothing. Capitalism provided you with an opportunity to succeed. 

How you did or didn't do is no one's fault but your own.

Some people just can't look at their lives and be honest with themselves.

They blame the system, others etc....

 
 
 
bbl-1
5.1.1  bbl-1  replied to  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh @5.1    4 months ago

Capitalism is dead.  Murdered by Supply Side Economics.

You 'blame' too much.  Besides, the only one who mentioned 'entitled' was you.

 
 
 
Ronin2
5.1.2  Ronin2  replied to  bbl-1 @5.1.1    4 months ago
Capitalism is dead.

Really? Tell that to the Chinese, Russians, and a host of other countries that have adopted capitalistic principles.

Murdered by Supply Side Economics.

Right....Which is the reason the US economy isn't one of the world leaders.

 
 
 
†hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh
5.1.3  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh  replied to  Ronin2 @5.1.2    4 months ago

Capitalism is dead to those that suck at it.

Getting to the primal source of the anti-capitalist state of mind always leads to a miserable example of someone who failed and now wants to elect government to give them what they could not or would not do for their own families.

Shameful.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
5.1.4  Jack_TX  replied to  bbl-1 @5.1.1    4 months ago
Capitalism is dead.  Murdered by Supply Side Economics. You 'blame' too much.

You don't even see the irony here, do you?

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.2  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @5    4 months ago
Reparations for America's past history of slavery? That is a 'Hail Mary pass' and straight out of Putin's playbook to create even more division in America

So what you are insinuating is that Democrats have been successfully manipulated by Putin to undermine America.

Good to know!

 
 
 
Texan1211
6  Texan1211    4 months ago

Are Democrats so wracked with guilt for slavery and Jim Crow that they must assuage that guilt by making reparations?

 
 
 
CB
7  CB     4 months ago

At the end of the Civil War, the "preservationists" Rebels had lost. The preservationists Rebels were charged and found guilty of starting a war with the United States on its own shores. 

Why were preservationists rebel families pitied and allowed to keep any of their private property, wealth, and lands?

 
 
 
Greg Jones
7.1  Greg Jones  replied to  CB @7    4 months ago

Found guilty by whom? Of what charges and specifications? In what court? Your question is illogical.

I think Lincoln wanted it that way. After General Lee finally surrendered at Appomattox, the Southern soldiers were simply allowed to stack their weapons and go home.

 
 
 
CB
7.1.1  CB   replied to  Greg Jones @7.1    4 months ago
These preservationists (rebels) seceded from the Union, elected their own president, waged war on the United States inside its borders, and are responsible for the death of a multitude of U.S. citizens. Guilty As Charged! But President Lincoln was benevolent beyond measure.
Yet, the same set of preservationists immediately turned and acted malevolently against now former black slaves in withholding fair treatment and fair wages from them. The preservationists instituted Jim Crow and poll taxes to defeat equality and justice for blacks in the South (the North won).
Why were preservationists rebel families pitied and allowed to keep any of their private property, wealth, and lands?

Why? Did these preservationists deserve anything for turning against the United States and its laws?

 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
7.2  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  CB @7    4 months ago

with the exception of most of the major players of the confederate government ,  most of those that lived and fought for the confederacy got governmental pardons under Johnson and later presidents and returned to serve in the federal government even though the 14th amendment  sec 3 forbids it , that's what governmental pardons be they presidential or congressional , are for.

 
 
 
CB
7.2.1  CB   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @7.2    4 months ago

Why? These people killed in time of war their fellow citizens and cause their fellow citizens to kill them. How is it fair in any sense that those "rebels" (terrorists) did not collectively be punished and sanctioned by the Unites States?

I will tell you. . . .

Because the United States government had no systems of laws to try and punish such a large contingent of southern states. Moreover, to punish them would have wounded this country beyond possible repair or caused indefinite damages to the systems of this country.  And lastly, because these southerners were kin to Northerners.

And all the former slaves got was blanket freedom from enslavement and a chance to struggle for anything else they received from the hands of their former masters who despised their release from slavery.

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
8  The Magic Eight Ball    4 months ago

the democrats should definitely pay reparations/restitution for the KKK and jim crow laws

 
 
 
CB
8.1  CB   replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @8    4 months ago

 To be clear, I hold no particular position on reparations. I am listening in, asking questions, and commenting on the topic.

That being stated, I'm sorry but that a lot of what Burgess Owens stated here is non-sequitar (does not follow the path from American slavery to politics  to today. For instance, that Owens does not know that the party of the Dixiecrats (defunct) have since 1961 been homogenized in the Republic Party is stunning. Also, he seems unaware that both parties have seen major shifts in their political ideologies and platforms resulting in large swaths of members leaving each party who no longer see their chosen party as a good fit for them.

Lastly, the issue of reparations - paid or not paid - will not be spun as one-sided and unbalanced payments, despite this use of a black republican man's face put on it.

 
 
 
Tessylo
8.2  Tessylo  replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @8    4 months ago

Sounds like a thug to me.

A black conservative - there's an oxymoron.  He must be filthy rich - why else would he be sucking republican dick?

 
 
 
Tessylo
8.2.1  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @8.2    4 months ago

Washed up I mean - he's on Fux 'news' now, how low can you go?

 
 
 
Dulay
8.3  Dulay  replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @8    4 months ago

So Burgess just wants 'restitution' from Democrats. Got ya...

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
9  The Magic Eight Ball    4 months ago
 that Owens does not know that the party of the Dixiecrats (defunct) have since 1961 been homogenized in the Republic Party

people who support liberty and freeing the slaves do not suddenly support slavery.... that is complete bs.

your going to need a link to back that assertion.

and to be clear... 

you're going to need a link from a reputable site like history.com  or at the very least a wiki article because a monster 180 degree turn in ideology like that does not go unnoticed.     the regurgitated liberal bs aint gonna fly here.

first the democrats enslaved their bodies... and today they enslave their minds by keeping them trapped in poverty with handouts but no jobs.       

amazing how a white guy named trump in the gop has lowered black unemployment to never seen before historic lows.  the democrats never did that because they never wanted to do that.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1  Texan1211  replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @9    4 months ago
that Owens does not know that the party of the Dixiecrats (defunct) have since 1961 been homogenized in the Republic Party

Just the rewritten history pushed by Democrats to attempt to distance themselves from what the Southern Democrats did.

Amazingly, the South had majority state houses that were Democrats even into the 1990's.

And yet, we are supposed to believe that the vast majority of Southern Dems left to join the GOP, but STILL kept voting Democrats into office. 

Do they realize how STUPID that sounds?

 
 
 
CB
9.1.1  CB   replied to  Texan1211 @9.1    4 months ago
 the vast majority of Southern Dems left to join the GOP

Prove this statement, please. You should read up on the Dixiecrat Party too.

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
9.1.2  The Magic Eight Ball  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1    4 months ago
Do they realize how STUPID that sounds?

just as stupid as saying all the criminals suddenly became the cops and all the cops suddenly became the criminals.

the gop was founded on freeing the slaves.

today under  trump the gop has lowered black unemployment to historic levels

and the left says: = but the gop is racist... LOL   

  these people are actually insane.  I mean text book.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  CB @9.1.1    4 months ago

Come on.

Are people NOT claiming that Southern Democrats left the Democratic Party in large numbers and joined the GOP?

Are you denying that?

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
9.1.4  The Magic Eight Ball  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.3    4 months ago
Are you denying that?

I dont deny some nut jobs slip into both parties damn near every day

but to say the gop is racist is complete BS. from the word go

  we reject that racist bs just like the democrats used to reject socialism.

I would also agree that for every link that says the kkk supports the gop your going to find one that says the kkk supports deomcrats... LOL

while the truth is simple.  neither party is inherently racist.

why does the left not support trumps efforts and successes in the black community? 

 because they did not build that.

 
 
 
CB
9.1.5  CB   replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @9.1.2    4 months ago

Unemployment has been on a steady decline after the republican (Bush Administration) caused great recession. However, you are afraid to mention that, or the AMAZING fact that a democrat 'saved the republic' from spiraling out of control. To be extremely fair, all administrations play off each other in complex fashions. The economy is not a perfect art! Moreover, Trump is just a big fhit talker consistently trying to claim everything good under his (greedy) banner.

The GOP can be racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic in any number of variations due to it stance on issues, policies, and/or bills and laws put up. So, don't act so shocked.

Maybe racism, sexism, homophobia, and/or xenophobia emanating from the preservationist party in U. S. politics has no impact on your life, but do not expect those for whom these are existing and enduring issues in society to applaud republicans and conservatives for suppression, repression, and their apathy.

As for republicans and Lincoln freeing the slaves—I am sure that slaves thank those involved and Mr. Lincoln. Now in the sentiments of a popular song, 'What have you done for black people and other minorities recently?'

As Republicans are fond of saying - its politics, will sound it out accordingly. If the Republican Party is doing right by black people and other minorities "the market" will tilt in its favor unabated.

 
 
 
CB
9.1.6  CB   replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.3    4 months ago

Why are you asking me? You do this in lieu of reading an article about the Dixiecrat's shift to the Republican Party? And coincidentally, there were republicans who left the party at the time because of its shifting views. Thus, becoming democrats. "Poles" flipped politically, really.

You come on! Go read about the Southern Democrats departure and quantify "large numbers" when they arrived at their new political home (in the Republican/conservative sphere).

Moreover, large numbers could be small in the scheme of a majority. (Just sufficient enough to tiilt political fortunes in regional and national campaigns to victory.)

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  CB @9.1.6    4 months ago

Please stop assuming no one but you reads anything or knows anything about Dixiecrats, Democrats, the South, and the GOP.

Please explain how so many states in the South had Democratic majorities in their legislatures despite so many moving to the GOP.

 
 
 
CB
9.1.8  CB   replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @9.1.4    4 months ago

Trump's success in the black community and with other minorities will be decided and defined by the Black community and other minorities, not a republican majority. (See what I did there?)

Moreover, be cautious about what you wish for: Inviting democrat party minorities into the republican party will effectively change the existing state of the party—as these new arrivals will likely not assimilate.

Then what? Yet another 'pole shift' in party politics?

 
 
 
CB
9.1.9  CB   replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.7    4 months ago

I won't be distracted by you any longer. This article is about reparations anyway. I have indulged you enough.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  CB @9.1.9    4 months ago

GOOD!

 
 
 
Greg Jones
9.1.11  Greg Jones  replied to  CB @9.1.5    4 months ago

Nothing but spam here. No truth or facts being given.

Good candidate for "IGNORE"

 
 
 
CB
9.1.12  CB   replied to  Greg Jones @9.1.11    4 months ago

Yeah, do that. Just keep looking down in these types of discussions.

oreti_beach.jpg

 
 
 
CB
9.2  CB   replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @9    4 months ago
people who support liberty and freeing the slaves do not suddenly support slavery

1. Clarify this.

2. That is, what makes you think Dixiecrats supported liberty and freedom for slaves?

This can move forward simply by your reading up on the Dixiecrat Party and its 'demise.'

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.2.1  Texan1211  replied to  CB @9.2    4 months ago

I believe his point is WHY would Southern Democrats suddenly join a party (the GOP) which did NOT espouse their own views? That makes no sense whatsoever.

It is undeniable that the GOP supported freeing slaves and giving them full rights. Why on earth would anyone wishing the opposite join the GOP?

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.2  Tessylo  replied to  Texan1211 @9.2.1    4 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
9.2.3  The Magic Eight Ball  replied to  Texan1211 @9.2.1    4 months ago
I believe his point is WHY would Southern Democrats suddenly join a party (the GOP) which did NOT espouse their own views? That makes no sense whatsoever.

yepp...

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.4  Tessylo  replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @9.2.3    4 months ago

Nope

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.2.5  Texan1211  replied to  Tessylo @9.2.4    4 months ago

YEP!

 
 
 
Split Personality
9.2.6  Split Personality  replied to  Texan1211 @9.2.1    4 months ago

Not exactly.

2. Lincoln didn’t believe blacks should have the same rights as whites.

Though Lincoln argued that the founding fathers’ phrase “All men are created equal” applied to blacks and whites alike, this did not mean he thought they should have the same social and political rights. His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas , who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.” In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust.

Like his views on emancipation, Lincoln’s position on social and political equality for African-Americans would evolve over the course of his presidency. In the last speech of his life, delivered on April 11, 1865, he argued for limited black suffrage, saying that any black man who had served the Union during the Civil War should have the right to vote.

3. Lincoln thought colonization could resolve the issue of slavery.

For much of his career, Lincoln believed that colonization—or the idea that a majority of the African-American population should leave the United States and settle in Africa or Central America—was the best way to confront the problem of slavery. His two great political heroes, Henry Clay and Thomas Jefferson , had both favored colonization; both were slave owners who took issue with aspects of slavery but saw no way that blacks and whites could live together peaceably. Lincoln first publicly advocated for colonization in 1852, and in 1854 said that his first instinct would be “to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia” (the African state founded by the American Colonization Society in 1821).

Nearly a decade later, even as he edited the draft of the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation in August of 1862, Lincoln hosted a delegation of freed slaves at the White House in the hopes of getting their support on a plan for colonization in Central America. Given the “differences” between the two races and the hostile attitudes of whites towards blacks, Lincoln argued, it would be “better for us both, therefore, to be separated.” Lincoln’s support of colonization provoked great anger among black leaders and abolitionists, who argued that African-Americans were as much natives of the country as whites, and thus deserved the same rights. After he issued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln never again publicly mentioned colonization, and a mention of it in an earlier draft was deleted by the time the final proclamation was issued in January 1863.

4. Emancipation was a military policy.

As much as he hated the institution of slavery, Lincoln didn’t see the Civil War as a struggle to free the nation’s 4 million slaves from bondage. Emancipation, when it came, would have to be gradual, and the important thing to do was to prevent the Southern rebellion from severing the Union permanently in two. But as the Civil War entered its second summer in 1862, thousands of slaves had fled Southern plantations to Union lines, and the federal government didn’t have a clear policy on how to deal with them. Emancipation, Lincoln saw, would further undermine the Confederacy while providing the Union with a new source of manpower to crush the rebellion.

In July 1862 the president presented his draft of the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation to his cabinet. Secretary of State William Seward urged him to wait until things were going better for the Union on the field of battle, or emancipation might look like the last gasp of a nation on the brink of defeat. Lincoln agreed and returned to edit the draft over the summer. On September 17 the bloody Battle of Antietam gave Lincoln the opportunity he needed. He issued the preliminary proclamation to his cabinet on September 22, and it was published the following day. As a cheering crowd gathered at the White House, Lincoln addressed them from a balcony: “I can only trust in God I have made no mistake … It is now for the country and the world to pass judgment on it.”

Emancipation Proclamation Hero

5. The Emancipation Proclamation didn’t actually free all of the slaves.

Since Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation as a military measure, it didn’t apply to border slave states like Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, all of which were loyal to the Union. (Missouri actually had two competing governments; one loyal to, and recognized by the Union, and one loyal to the Confederacy). Lincoln also exempted selected areas of the Confederacy that had already come under Union control in hopes of gaining the loyalty of whites in those states. In practice, then, the Emancipation Proclamation didn’t immediately free a single slave, as the only places it applied were places where the federal government had no control—the Southern states currently fighting against the Union.

Despite its limitations, Lincoln’s proclamation marked a crucial turning point in the evolution of Lincoln’s views of slavery, as well as a turning point in the Civil War itself. By war’s end, some 200,000 black men would serve in the Union Army and Navy, striking a mortal blow against the institution of slavery and paving the way for its eventual abolition by the 13th Amendment.

Access hundreds of hours of historical video, commercial free, with HISTORY Vault . Start your free trial today.

Access Date

June 20, 2019

Publisher

A&E Television Networks

Last Updated

February 13, 2019

Original Published Date

September 21, 2012

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
9.2.7  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Texan1211 @9.2.1    4 months ago
I believe his point is WHY would Southern Democrats suddenly join a party (the GOP) which did NOT espouse their own views? That makes no sense whatsoever.

" the Southern strategy was a Republican Party electoral strategy to increase political support among white voters in the South by appealing to racism against African Americans. As the civil rights movement and dismantling of Jim Crow laws in the 1950s and 1960s visibly deepened existing racial tensions in much of the Southern United States, Republican politicians such as presidential candidate Richard Nixon and Senator Barry Goldwater developed strategies that successfully contributed to the political realignment of many white, conservative voters in the South who had traditionally supported the Democratic Party rather than the Republican Party. It also helped to push the Republican Party much more to the right."

"the phrase "Southern Strategy" is often attributed to Nixon's political strategist Kevin Phillips, he did not originate it but popularized it. In an interview included in a 1970 New York Times article, Phillips stated his analysis based on studies of ethnic voting:

"From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that... but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans . That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

While there are revisionists who try to downplay the very real "Southern strategy" that was admitted by Republican operatives at the time, its results are irrefutable. What were once Dixiecrat strongholds oppressing and disenfranchising black Americans, we now have Republican strongholds still oppressing and disenfranchising black Americans. There was no mass migration of white bigots out of those States they held control in, the only thing that changed was the letter after their names on their political affiliation card. While Democrats started supporting diverse candidates in those southern States, Republicans appealed to those disaffected Dixiecrats with their white male candidates only policy for decades. As predicted, the "negrophobes" aka xenophobes aka deplorable's, started voting Republican and have never looked back.

 
 
 
CB
9.2.9  CB   replied to  Texan1211 @9.2.1    4 months ago

I suggested you to look it up.  Hint: The policies and political positions of 'the republican party of Lincoln' did not endure into the 20th century (and certainly not into the 21st century).  Please read about the Dixiecrat Party, its degradation, and its absorption into the Republican Party after the military services integrated and President Johnson signed 1960's civil rights act. 

In reality, plenty of issues occur that don't make sense. Like not paying women equal wages for equal work. It's occurring, nevertheless. So now what? You plan to encourage your chosen party to change its stance on women pay equality to make sense?

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.10  Tessylo  replied to  Texan1211 @9.2.5    4 months ago

Naw

 
 
 
CB
9.2.12  CB   replied to  Split Personality @9.2.6    4 months ago

SP! Well delivered link and it will clear up some confusion for some. Others know the dilemmas slavery presented for this nation as a whole. There were many diverse viewpoints on how to deal with black slaves and the promise of freedom inside the states. Even some Africans were sparsely free (in pockets of our society).

What a messy 'construct' was slavery and its set of subjective rules from one state to another state!

Lincoln saw that the African was a "home-sick" creature supplanted here. What to do with a 'creature' who has had all its connections to its home detached from it? What should  government do when faced with making it right?

Complex issues. As a consequence of politics throughout the generations - Society as a whole never quite fixed this.

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.3  Tessylo  replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @9    4 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
10  Dismayed Patriot    4 months ago

Imagine if you will, a Game Show where there are 18 white contestants and 4 black contestants. The challenge is to run into a large circular room with 15 pedestals randomly spread around the room, each with a golden key on it. The contestants are lined up behind the starting ribbon, then the black contestants are blind folded and have their shoe laces tied together. Then the ribbon falls and the contestants rush into the room, the black contestants falling behind because they didn't see the ribbon drop due to being blindfolded and of course, their shoe laces are tied. Before long, the horn sounds, the round has ended, and 15 of the white contestants have 15 keys and 3 of the slowest whites and all of the black contestants come up empty handed.

This is when the game show host comes in and explains, laughingly, how that was really unfair to the black contestants, so he announces they will now all have their blindfolds removed and their shoes untied to make it fair. Onto the next round.

The next room has 18 golden chests hidden around the room, three of which will open without a key, and 15 that require the keys from the previous room. At the bell they all rush in, with 15 white contestants virtually guaranteed getting a treasure while the 3 slow whites and 4 black contestants must find and fight over the last 3 chests.

The game show would be called "American Liberty! Ain't it Grand!".

Handicapping an entire group of people for over 200 years while huge personal wealth was built by the privileged and then finally taking off the oppressed peoples chains and saying "Okay, now go fend for yourself cause we're all equal now" isn't anything close to equality. America has huge debts to pay to those who were used as the slave labor to build this nation and to those native Americans who our ancestors attempted to wipe out in order to steal their lands and assets and then stabbed in the back with nearly every treaty. To simply walk away saying "wasn't me" is beyond ignorant, and frankly, it's almost as gutless and disgusting as the racist vile attitudes of our ancestors who did those very things.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10    4 months ago
To simply walk away saying "wasn't me" is beyond ignorant, and frankly, it's almost as gutless and disgusting as the racist vile attitudes of our ancestors who did those very things.

So is that to mean that the offspring of murderers and rapists should be held accountable and punished for the transgressions of their parents or  ansestors?

Another question would be is who would a poor white person sue for reparations for the governmentally institutionalized discrimination of the affirmative action programs ?

Grandpa always said some times its best to leave the past in the past and go forward from today being the best person you can be.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
10.1.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1    4 months ago
So is that to mean that the offspring of murderers and rapists should be held accountable and punished for the transgressions of their parents or  ansestors?

If the murderer was never caught and had stolen all your families assets at the time of the murder and used that to build his family fortune that his descendants then continue to benefit from, then at a minimum justice would demand some sort of acknowledgement of their ancestors inexcusable behavior and some sort of attempt at reparations should be made to give back at least what their murderous ancestor stole.

"who would a poor white person sue for reparations for the governmentally institutionalized discrimination of the affirmative action programs ?"

Considering for the first 200+ years of American history "affirmative action" programs were alive and well and only benefited white Americans, I fail to see why any white American who hasn't been historically denied any benefits based on their race should demand anything. And I'd ask them why they are still living in the gutter when the system has been rigged in their favor for over two centuries, though I'm sure the answer will include ridiculing higher education that they had access to but due to cycles of ignorance and poverty likely passed on by some bigoted religious conservative parents as they cry about their lot in life and whine about black Americans getting a hand up.

"some times its best to leave the past in the past and go forward from today being the best person you can be"

Well I think trying to be the best person you can be includes owning up to the past. Just saying "Let's leave the past in the past" is often most desired by those who did truly heinous things to get where they are in life.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.2  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10.1.1    4 months ago

So the sins of the father are the sins of the son and on down the line. no matter how the sons or further generations are individually.

 
 
 
CB
10.1.3  CB   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1    4 months ago
Grandpa always said some times its best to leave the past in the past and go forward from today being the best person you can be.

Your grandpa is a wise 'statesman' in that regard. But,

  1. Slavery was a act of the State (not mere individuals or a cadre).
  2. Poor white people can make their case for 'reparations' against the government, merit will determine the outcome in any case.

Nice try at a distraction.

 
 
 
CB
10.1.4  CB   replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10.1.1    4 months ago

You're on a roll and deserve to be commended for sticking to your points! Most excellent analyses!

 
 
 
CB
10.1.5  CB   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.2    4 months ago
So the sins of the father are the sins of the son and on down the line. no matter how the sons or further generations are individually.

That is being cagey. Slavery was a state act and therefore it has a state remedy. Some people are acting the government to consider reparations as that remedy. It is for government to make a determination. The question and answer to slave reparations has nothing to do with any one generation of Americans going forward.  It is an effort to correct a major failure in government authority or whether abuses of its authority, by a significant response delivered once and for all.

Once again, I am not sure of my stance on the issue of slave reparations, still taking a look and listen to the arguments being put forward. Specious arguments should not be allowed to taint the debate, nevertheless.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
10.1.6  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.2    4 months ago
So the sins of the father are the sins of the son and on down the line.

Did I even infer that those descendants should be arrested and tried for their ancestors vile action? Of course not.

But ask yourself this, if it was your great, great grandparent that perhaps had been an art collector in Europe in the 1920's and spent your families fortune at the time to buy a famous painting that would be worth $100 million today, but then your ancestor was brutally murdered by a Nazi SS officer who stole the painting and fled to Brazil. Nearly a century later later you find out that the S.S. officer died but had left the painting to his heirs who just sold it at auction for $100M. Based on your previous statements, can I assume you'd just throw your hands up and say "Well, whatever, can't go blaming the sins of the father on his descendants, guess they should keep the painting"?

Now, of course you wouldn't arrest the mans children and accuse them of his crimes, but of course you should stand up for your claim on the property that was taken and the wrongs done to your family.

Acknowledging the part our grandparents played and apologizing for their actions and working hard to give a hand up to those who our ancestors forcibly and violently kept down is simply the right thing to do. To ignore it and say "Not my problem" is to leave us open to repeating our past mistakes while also continuing the cycles of poverty our ancestors inflicted upon fellow American citizens simply because of their skin color.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.7  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10.1.6    4 months ago
So the sins of the father are the sins of the son and on down the line.
Did I even infer that those descendants should be arrested and tried for their ancestors vile action? Of course not.

And I never said that you did say they should be arrested and tried ,I did say and mean that those descendants would be the ones to pay for something they themselves had nothing to do with to those that never suffered under the institution of slavery, or how do you think the government( state) is going to get the money to pay any possible reparations? short answer is through taxes which EVERYONE including those getting reparations would pay.

And if reparations for slavery fails in this country, remember it was a legal practice up until 1865 and in some places in the world , its still legal just called by a different name. , what is next? will those descendant of slaves go after those that first sold their relatives into slavery way back in Africa? they would have about as much luck doing that IMHO.

would I apologize for something I had no control over in the past ? I would agree that it was a crappy thing to happen , but I owe no apologies simply because my skin color is different than those that were oppressed or the same as those that did do the oppressing.

A hand up? that went out the window in the 70s when I lived outside Boston and got caught up in their bussing fiasco, I got to see real racism first hand and directed to me personally when I was bussed into the city . Any hand up I have or will give  has directly to do with the content of the individuals character , not the color of their skin or if they stand or  squat to pee, or if they pray kneeling or prostrate , or if they pray at all.

Now when it comes to equal opportunity, all for it, irregardless of race sex creed or any other beliefs , EVERYONE should have equal opportunity, thing is and should be remembered, equal results can never be guaranteed. and why are they not guaranteed? too many outside influences and personal choices to be able to make that guarantee.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.8  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  CB @10.1.5    4 months ago
Slavery was a state act and therefore it has a state remedy

And that remedy was reached in 1865 with the abolition  and outlawing the institution of slavery , before that it was a legally acceptable practice. 

I wont touch on the morality of the issue because the institution was around long before recorded history , and in some forms still exists today in some places.

 
 
 
Dulay
10.1.9  Dulay  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.8    4 months ago
And that remedy was reached in 1865 with the abolition  and outlawing the institution of slavery , before that it was a legally acceptable practice. 

A remedy for wrongdoing is not merely to stop doing wrong. Repentance and restitution is a remedy. Neither has happened. 

I wont touch on the morality of the issue because the institution was around long before recorded history , and in some forms still exists today in some places.

We're not talking about history from it's beginning, we're talking about an abhorrent institution, sanctioned by the state and codified into our founding document. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.10  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Dulay @10.1.9    4 months ago
Repentance and restitution is a remedy. Neither has happened. 

Well I am of the mind that repentance has to come from those that did the wrong, not someone that had no choice or say in the matter over 100 years later , I doubt you will find a soul alive today that will agree that slavery is or was  a good thing or even agree that it should be allowed and that is about the best you will likely get from those alive today for repentance .  those that need to be repentant are long dead and gone.

restitution , those deserving of restitution are those that suffered under the institution of slavery , and they are in the same place as those that need to show repentance , long dead and gone.

 
 
 
Texan1211
10.1.11  Texan1211  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.10    4 months ago
Well I am of the mind that repentance has to come from those that did the wrong, not someone that had no choice or say in the matter over 100 years later , I doubt you will find a soul alive today that will agree that slavery is or was a good thing or even agree that it should be allowed and that is about the best you will likely get from those alive today for repentance . those that need to be repentant are long dead and gone.
restitution , those deserving of restitution are those that suffered under the institution of slavery , and they are in the same place as those that need to show repentance , long dead and gone.

Hear, hear!

Well stated.

 
 
 
Dulay
10.1.12  Dulay  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.10    4 months ago
Well I am of the mind that repentance has to come from those that did the wrong, not someone that had no choice or say in the matter over 100 years later , I doubt you will find a soul alive today that will agree that slavery is or was  a good thing or even agree that it should be allowed and that is about the best you will likely get from those alive today for repentance .  those that need to be repentant are long dead and gone.

I guess it's about empathy, I wasn't alive when Japanese were interned but I recognize that it was a purely racial act and that as an American I owed them an apology for what the nation did in my name. 

restitution , those deserving of restitution are those that suffered under the institution of slavery , and they are in the same place as those that need to show repentance , long dead and gone.

Yet they, and their progeny with them were held back by our society and still are in many ways. 

One of the most powerful building blocks for 'greatest generation' and for the creation of the middle class in this country was the GI bill after WWII. The vast majority of African American GIs couldn't take advantage of that program. The legacy of that fact alone needs to be recognized. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.13  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Dulay @10.1.12    4 months ago
I guess it's about empathy, I wasn't alive when Japanese were interned but I recognize that it was a purely racial act and that as an American I owed them an apology for what the nation did in my name. 

neither was I alive for the Japanese interment , but it was not for ME to apologize to americans of Japanese decent for what the government did , it was for me to make the government apologize for what THEY did wrong to US Citizens that proved they were likely the most loyal patriotic and brave of americans at the time , my evidence of that? 442 niesi , most decorated unit of any military unit this country has ever had , in spite of what they and their relations were put through. It was the GOVERNMENT, not the people , that needed to apologize and through elections , slowly the people put into office politicians in government that agreed and did apologize as the government.

 
 
 
Dulay
10.1.14  Dulay  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.13    4 months ago
It was the GOVERNMENT, not the people , that needed to apologize and through elections , slowly the people put into office politicians in government that agreed and did apologize as the government.

It would be the GOVERNMENT, not the people who apologize and paid reparations for slavery too...

 
 
 
Texan1211
10.1.15  Texan1211  replied to  Dulay @10.1.14    4 months ago
It would be the GOVERNMENT, not the people who apologize and paid reparations for slavery too...

Government doesn't pay out a penny it doesn't get from its citizens.

 
 
 
CB
10.1.16  CB   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.8    4 months ago
And that remedy was reached in 1865 with the abolition  and outlawing the institution of slavery , before that it was a legally acceptable practice. 

The remedy is determined by the government (In charge) and the statute of limitation has not ran out on reparations. While we're at it we should apologize and give reparations for Jim Crow Laws too! 

In retrospect, here is a lot of 'payback' due; maybe even today, for national policies put in place by difficult assholes 'holing' monies and wealth away simply so the proper people for it could not get any of it fair and square!

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
10.1.17  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.7    4 months ago
I did say and mean that those descendants would be the ones to pay for something they themselves had nothing to do with to those that never suffered under the institution of slavery

You avoided replying to my analogy I see. Would you have let the S.S. officers family keep the $100 million? You keep avoiding the topic of money accept when it comes to what you imagine you'll have to pay in extra taxes if we accept the facts and own up to how our ancestors behaved and how we've benefited from it since. You refuse to mention not only the huge amount of wealth slaves made for their masters and our country of which in return they were spit upon and lynched, but you act as if the white wealth built over the last 150 years since the civil war ended had nothing to do with the effective white affirmative action closing off jobs, housing, education and opportunities to people of color that have led to long lasting cycles of poverty which are still afflicting many in America. Up until Brown v Board was decided, white schools had affirmative action, 100% for white students. Up until the civil rights act thousands of jobs were considered "whites only", 100% of hires, all white, more white affirmative action. To refuse to see the effects and to refuse to accept any responsibility by making excuses seems sad. Just openly saying "Hey, I get it, we owe them likely hundreds of billions like we owe the Native Americans, perhaps trillions, but fuck it, I'm not paying that shit" is at least more honest. Just saying "Well I'm not racist! I judge people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin" is a fine sentiment, but really it's just another cop out to avoid feeling any responsibility.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.18  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10.1.17    4 months ago

I didn't avoid it , I ignored an apples and oranges comparison , and it is such because your analogy consists of an object one can gain possession of again where as reparations for slavery would be trying to repay someone for something they can never gain back again , time .

 Your analogy involves a Nazi and stolen art , for which there are currently international laws pertaining to the steps needed to take to regain such stolen items .past  slavery has not to my knowledge  been address by international law or treaties or agreements as for any reparations   from one to another. and I doubt it ever will because every nation in the world occupies an area that slavery was once part of even IF those nations no longer exist.

Pay an extra tax ? I will simply limit my income tax liability to negate any such tax imposed  and remember all taxes apply to everyone equally so those being paid reparations will be paying not only for those reparations they will also be paying taxes on the income those reparations generate , and with the progressive taxes we have they will likely be paying more.

As far as im concerned , because of the AA laws I have had to live under for my working and tax paying life , in the auspices of "leveling the playing field and making things fairer for the disenfranchised " all things that is being claimed to have failed so now more of someone elses money needs to be used, oh lets not forget the hat in hand apologetic pose required ,isn't going to happen , way its been in my time is equal opportunity was given and guaranteed , what wasn't was the outcomes . 

you want to pay reparations ? no one is stopping you from doing so individually or personally, me pay for something in the past I had nothing to do with? my answer is go pound sand up your 3rd point of contact with the ground. because I don't share that guilt. might be a cop out to you because , it looks like your the one agreeing to pay , its not a cop out to me because I don't have that feeling of guilt over something I havent done and refuse to participate in paying for. so when you say "we" you better have a mouse in your pocket.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.19  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  CB @10.1.16    4 months ago

If anything , it sure sounds like you picked a side and are not undecided any longer.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
10.1.20  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.18    4 months ago
and remember all taxes apply to everyone equally so those being paid reparations will be paying not only for those reparations they will also be paying taxes on the income those reparations generate

Well then perhaps that's the solution, give black Americans tax free status for the same amount of time their ancestors were enslaved. Let them build some wealth since their ancestors were denied that ability. It wouldn't cost us nearly as much as giving churches tax free status or allowing the loopholes for corporations to pay zero in taxes is costing America.

 
 
 
CB
10.1.21  CB   replied to  Texan1211 @10.1.15    4 months ago

And yet government pays; it happens everyday somewhere in the government. Your point is irrelevant. Maybe you and some others seem to like your 'leg up' in society—whether kept or lost over time. Well, many others have been harassed, beaten down, mentally degraded, broken, killed, and still they rise to ask for what is their right as an American to request.

A wrong was done to Negroes in this country. Greater than anything done to the Japanese folks placed in camps and for a much longer period. 

An apology to Black Americans has been given - though it was hollow at the time and so today.

I think conservatives want to protect money and wealth from landing in the hands of those who richly deserve it and can use the added help. Of course, were the funds to be provided and paid out, I feel sure conservatives would place each recipient under a long microscope to mock how it is spent over the long haul. Conservatives do that kind of thing and we all know it.

 
 
 
CB
10.1.22  CB   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.19    4 months ago
As far as im concerned , because of the AA laws I have had to live under for my working and tax paying life , in the auspices of "leveling the playing field and making things fairer for the disenfranchised " all things that is being claimed to have failed so now more of someone elses money needs to be used, oh lets not forget the hat in hand apologetic pose required ,isn't going to happen , way its been in my time is equal opportunity was given and guaranteed , what wasn't was the outcomes . 
@10.1.8

That is not your call to make. Your 'side' has holes in its argument. You sound more emotional than objective. Not sure what "AA laws" means above, hope you can clarify.

However, as I stated in @10.1.21 below: You, a conservative, went there. Conservatives like to count (control) other people's money and what they do with it.

Well, if a Black American (and other minorities) received reparations from the U.S. Treasury for past wrongs done it's really not any conservative groups business what these people do with it - including up to and touching washing the funds, burying it in the ground, and forgetting its location. 

The issue for us to consider is this: Should the United States at last correct  a major wrong done which has never been properly redressed. Stick with the topic, please.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.23  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  CB @10.1.22    4 months ago
Not sure what "AA laws" means above, hope you can clarify.

where should I start? As I already stated I got caught up in that bussing fiasco , all that really did was take kids and put them in positions they didn't need to be in , granted the intentions were good getting some kids out of sub par schools and getting them into better schools , but it came at costs the kids ended up paying, for every kid bussed out of the city into the suburbs , one from the suburbs were bussed into the city to the school they came from, policy , that had the power of law by court order.

My experience for that school year was  not a pleasant or enjoyable one , those kids that didn't get bussed , didn't want me there any more than I wanted to be there ,I could not participate in any school functions due to distance, so I couldn't be involved in any of the things like sports or after school activities like clubs,and because I couldn't participate  the other kids used that to say I had no pride or school spirit, in truth I likely didn't because it wasn't my school , I was an outsider that was being forced to show up.

then there was the commute itself which on a good day would be 30-40 mins if traffic was with you. about the only good thing about the commute is it showed me what to expect from traffic when I got older.

As I stated I was shown racism in its raw form, not just by the kids, but by their parents themselves when I went to get off or on the bus, from the kids because I was different , I attribute that to normal school bullys for the most part egged on by their parents because of the charged situation. and it took me years to come to the realization that it wasn't me personally they were upset with , but the charged situation itself , I was just the scapegoat that was there for them to vent about and I later came to realize it was all about the money n not the desegregation. from my school there was 4 of us that got bussed and all 4 of us had parents that were not as connected in the community as other students  , 2 made it a week then got sent to either parochial or private schools, the 3rd one made it 6 months before the family moved out of the "bussing zone". The next year my grandparents mortgaged their house to get me into a private school which lasted a half year before my mom decided to move out of state for other reasons.

as i got older i started seeing how federal laws were being affected by the affirmative action program ,  what was most telling to me was when a friend of my fathers stated he had hit the AA lottery when he hired a black woman under the supposed "quota system" to get a government contract for whatever he did .  I ran into that myself when i had my own small bussiness and bid on a small contract , was told i didnt conform to AA policies because even though i had women and different minorities working for me , i didnt have what they considered the plainly visable right ones. long story short i had no blacks working for me ,problem was there were none that lived in my area( truthfully they are few and far between in Wyoming , but they tend to not live in areas I choose to) and none had applied for a job. and i told the interviewer that, so how was i suppose to hire one? I didnt get the bid , which didnt bother me because someone under bid me . was what i stated above a factor? i can not rule it out entirely so i will go with i was underbid .

I wont even go into the college application experiences because after a couple months i decided to go a different route and went into the military. And this is just scratching the surface of what i experienced and witnessed for myself .

 I hope that clarifies what i said about AA( affirmative action)laws and policies and what i have experienced.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.24  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  CB @10.1.22    4 months ago
Conservatives like to count (control) other people's money and what they do with it. Well, if a Black American (and other minorities) received reparations from the U.S. Treasury for past wrongs done it's really not any conservative groups business what these people do with it - including up to and touching washing the funds, burying it in the ground, and forgetting its location. 

I have never denied being fiscally conservative likely never will either and what I mean by fiscally conservative is to live within ones means with no or minimum debt if possible .

frankly I don't care what anyone does with their money , its theirs to spend as they choose , they want to be a philanthropist , they can give it away , they want to horde and save it , that's their choice as well. The only thing I am concerned about is what am I going to do with my money, and that is no ones business except my own , so in that we can agree. Guess I am not as conservative as you seem to think.

As far as what the government spends money on , the choices left for an individual is to suck it up and let the status quo  of the time continue , get people elected to government that more align with their way of thinking to change how the government spends , or in limiting what the government can take from them through taxation of income, not everyone can do that last one though. this basically falls down to if the income is not there , the income tax revenue the government doesnt materialize, if it doesnt materialize they wont have it to spend as readily.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.25  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  CB @10.1.22    4 months ago
The issue for us to consider is this: Should the United States at last correct  a major wrong done which has never been properly redressed. Stick with the topic, please.

This is my individual observation  Some will say the correcting the major wrong of slavery was already done with the abolition of the practice, some will say that the only ones warrenting reparations are those that were slaves,to be paid by those that owned slaves. neither of those groups exist anymore .

So IMHO what should be being discussed is the Jim crow era of discriminatory laws that came about not slavery itself. from my view , as aberrant as jim crow was it was allowed through a loophole in the 14th amendment that still exists and stands  today ,I will quote, "nor shall any State deprive any person of life , liberty or property without due process of law: nor deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protections of the law."

Jim crow used that loophole , along with the corruption of the court system, which started getting remedied in the 50s and 60 on through today, so is it for the government to make payments or for those institutions to pay for their discriminatory practices , if those institutions can be traced to present day entities?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
10.1.26  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.25    4 months ago
Some will say the correcting the major wrong of slavery was already done with the abolition of the practice

So if you came home to find 200 people with sledgehammers destroying your home, the "major wrong" done to you would be corrected once you got them to stop?

"Jim crow used that loophole"

Did he now? That's good, we can just blame him for everything then, make him pay reparations... /s

Not that I have to point this out, but "Jim Crow" didn't exist and was loosely based on a caricature of black Americans made popular by a white man named Thomas D. Rice who would perform in blackface. As a result of Thomas S Rice's fame, by 1838 "Jim Crow" became a pejorative expression meaning "Negro" to most whites. The phrase "Jim Crow Laws" was popularized as early as 1892 and was first seen in the title of a New York Times article about Louisiana requiring segregated railroad cars.

My point is, "Jim Crow" didn't use anything. White bigots and racists who found it financially beneficial to discriminate and keep black Americans under foot used the "without due process of law" as a loophole.

So please stop trying to obfuscate and deflect from the facts. Stop trying to shirk responsibility simply because its uncomfortable to hear or accept. It wasn't just "the government" who was at fault as we have a representative government made up of those elected by the people, and those people at that time were often incredibly racist and knowingly, willfully profited off the unequal playing field they had created in regards to black Americans. All anyone is suggesting today is tilting that playing field in favor of those who spent so long being denied even a seat at the table. But all any selfish, self absorbed persons seem to want to do is complain about how doing so might not be fair to them.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.27  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  CB @10.1.22    4 months ago
@10.1.8
That is not your call to make

As it pertains to me individually and personally? yes that is my call to make. Now if the government decision differs from mine  so be it , but as stated in 10.1.24

, the choices left for an individual is to suck it up and let the status quo of the time continue , get people elected to government that more align with their way of thinking to change how the government spends , or in limiting what the government can take from them through taxation of income, not everyone can do that last one though. this basically falls down to if the income is not there , the income tax revenue the government doesnt materialize, if it doesnt materialize they wont have it to spend as readily.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.28  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10.1.26    4 months ago

Of course you realize that the use of Jim crow was a blanket statement refuring to the prevalent discrimination of the times , hense I added era when I mentioned it once there . and those same bigots found the loophole of using due process of law, all they had to do is get laws passed through their state legislatures to be enforced ,  hense the reference to the "corrupt court system", if you comprehend that we actually agree on those points you would be surprised . we just disagree on the remedy and I refuse to pay for something I didn't do . So far all your analogies  from the Nazi stealing artwork to now people busting up a house , I would have legal recourses against the actual people that did the deed, which is what is lacking in your argument . tell me how you hold someone that had nothing to do with the aggrievance responsible for others actions ?

"All anyone is suggesting today is tilting that playing field in favor of those who spent so long being denied even a seat at the table".

I thought that was what the past 60 years of civil rights and affirmative actions were suppose to remedy? or was it not tilted enough? you mean to tell me it didn't work out that way? If it didn't work out , that would be because people have the right of freedom of choice within their means.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.29  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.28    4 months ago

This is how I think DP pictures me...256 WHITE DEBIL, WHITE DEBIL!!!!

 
 
 
Jack_TX
10.1.30  Jack_TX  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10.1.20    4 months ago
Well then perhaps that's the solution, give black Americans tax free status for the same amount of time their ancestors were enslaved. Let them build some wealth since their ancestors were denied that ability. It wouldn't cost us nearly as much as giving churches tax free status or allowing the loopholes for corporations to pay zero in taxes is costing America.

So go ahead and tell us exactly how much money we're going to need to flush down this drain in order to make you feel better. $20 million?  $1 billion?  $50 billion?  $500 billion?  How much?

Because make no mistake...this is not about black people.  It's about white liberals and their "feelings".

That's the objection.  Reparations are just one small item on a seemingly endless list of things liberals want to feed their insatiable emotions.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
10.1.31  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Jack_TX @10.1.30    4 months ago
Because make no mistake...this is not about black people.  It's about white liberals and their "feelings".

Thats why the people who have consistently proposed something be done about this have been black. jrSmiley_30_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Jack_TX
10.1.32  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @10.1.31    4 months ago
Thats why the people who have consistently proposed something be done about this have been black.

Black politicians propose it because it would put cash in their pockets and votes in the box.  You can't blame them for trying.

It gets discussed as though it's a serious possibility because bleeding heart white liberals will enable any kind of nonsense if it helps them "feel" better.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
10.1.34  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Jack_TX @10.1.30    4 months ago

jack , Im not going to quite jump the shark yet , john pointed out elsewhere that the house has simply suggested a study into the issue and to see if its feasible and if so how to go about it. I think that's not a bad idea , because this study would answer the questions you have asked as to the how much as far as ball park ,  it would also have to address specifically who would be eligible for such and how they would qualify, for reparations for slavery alone , skin color alone would not suffice , there would have to be a verifiable liniage through documentation ( to be determined ) to a former slave, that was a slave in THIS country, that shrinks the pool somewhat, that will also cause some hurt feelings with some who wont qualify. they wil also have to determine if this pertains simply to slavery , or all the discrimination being stated for the reasons for the need for this. Im also sure there will be other disqualifying factors , one I can think of is a former slave , who became emancipated prior to the Civil war that ended up owning slaves themselves , so everything is on the table when it comes to feasibility and who would qualify. It could get interesting to see how they untangle that can of worms , if they want to try.

 
 
 
Dulay
10.1.35  Dulay  replied to  Texan1211 @10.1.15    4 months ago

[Removed

 
 
 
Texan1211
10.1.36  Texan1211  replied to  CB @10.1.21    4 months ago
And yet government pays; it happens everyday somewhere in the government. Your point is irrelevant. Maybe you and some others seem to like your 'leg up' in society—whether kept or lost over time. Well, many others have been harassed, beaten down, mentally degraded, broken, killed, and still they rise to ask for what is their right as an American to request.

Well, you certainly have an opinion on the relevance of my post. That's super!

I never denied that blacks were very mistreated--I consider it a blight on our history.

A wrong was done to Negroes in this country. Greater than anything done to the Japanese folks placed in camps and for a much longer period.

I agree blacks were wronged, terribly so. Comparing them to Japanese is what I find irrelevant.

An apology to Black Americans has been given - though it was hollow at the time and so today.

Once again, it is great you have your own opinion on that.

I think conservatives want to protect money and wealth from landing in the hands of those who richly deserve it and can use the added help. Of course, were the funds to be provided and paid out, I feel sure conservatives would place each recipient under a long microscope to mock how it is spent over the long haul. Conservatives do that kind of thing and we all know it.

Maybe what ever it is you think simply isn't reality.

 
 
 
CB
10.1.37  CB   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.24    4 months ago
in limiting what the government can take from them through taxation of income, not everyone can do that last one though. this basically falls down to if the income is not there , the income tax revenue the government doesnt materialize, if it doesnt materialize they wont have it to spend as readily.

You may or may not realize that a primary reason our tax code is so complex and folds over on itself is because of hardened tax cheats and tax thieves. Tax law, rules and regulations attempt to compensate for the shortages in funds taken or held back by cheaters and thieves who do not pay a decent share (if any) of their tax burden. 

 
 
 
CB
10.1.38  CB   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.25    4 months ago
some will say that the only ones warrenting reparations are those that were slaves,to be paid by those that owned slaves. neither of those groups exist anymore .

Good luck with finding a living slave. Save to say they are all dead and gone - as it is with the masters. However this can not be a loophole to be exploited by some conservatives. After all, The House of Representatives is clear in understanding the dead have need of little or nothing from this life. Still, the discussion is currently taking place.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
10.1.39  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @10.1.37    4 months ago
You may or may not realize that a primary reason our tax code is so complex and folds over on itself is because of hardened tax cheats and tax thieves.

If by "tax cheats" and "tax thieves" you mean "congressmen" and "senators", then yeah....OK.

The tax code is so complex because it's a primary mechanism by which politicians bribe voters with their own money.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
10.1.40  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @10.1.38    4 months ago
However this can not be a loophole

It's not a loophole.

"Loophole" presupposes a liability, which does not exist.

 
 
 
CB
10.1.41  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @10.1.30    4 months ago

Boring melodrama. Conservatives and their endlessly list of demands on liberal freedoms.

 
 
 
CB
10.1.42  CB   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10.1.34    4 months ago
Im also sure there will be other disqualifying factors , one I can think of is a former slave , who became emancipated prior to the Civil war that ended up owning slaves themselves , so everything is on the table when it comes to feasibility and who would qualify. It could get interesting to see how they untangle that can of worms , if they want to try.

I am CONFIDENT that conservatives (who do not want this to occur in any way shape or fashion) will get involved and throw up every roadblock, detour, and stumblingblock they  can to the tune of every dollar granted! (If granted at all, that is.)

 
 
 
CB
10.1.43  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @10.1.39    4 months ago

If that is what makes your nights comfortable and restful go with it.

 
 
 
CB
10.1.44  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @10.1.40    4 months ago

Loophole presupposes something which can be used as a means of escape through; that is what conservatives are ATTEMPTING  to use dead slaves and their former masters for. An escape to end deepening discussions on the topic of reparations.

 
 
 
CB
10.2  CB   replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10    4 months ago

Well articulated. Speak! If history is prologue, there will always be opposers who attempt to hide truth in low and high sounding rhetoric. Or, who always point away from the scabbed over pus-filled sores in our society. Well, again, today: The Doctor is In. Let's get our body politic temperature taken, lab work looked over, and see what our prognosis is on reparations is as a result of this visit!

 
 
 
Jack_TX
11  Jack_TX    4 months ago
Not all liberals.

I did qualify with "bleeding heart" and "white", but you make a very fair point that many, many liberals are not silly like that.

None of my ancestors were here during the civil war, why should any of my family pay anyone anything?

Exactly.

Mine were here during the Civil War.  But that was 150 years ago.  The Civil Rights Act was over 50 years ago.  

At some point we need to admit that people are going to need to help themselves, just like the Polish and Italian immigrants of a century ago.  Those people came to the United States and did whatever they needed to do to establish themselves and make better lives for their families.  

Today, we have Mexican families doing the same thing, and we need to welcome them.

If people are determined that reparations need to happen, they are certainly able to donate.

 
 
 
CB
11.1  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @11    4 months ago

You keep looking past the guilt.

  1. Were Polish and Italian immigrants slaves?
  2. Did Polish and Italian immigrants have a civil war brokered on their behalf?
  3. When Polish and Italian immigrants came to this country did these immigrants' wage floor better itself over time, while Black Americans were deliberately kept in ignorance and exclusion (on the pitiful wage bottom)?
  4. Did Polish and Italian immigrants deal with Jim Crow Laws? 'Sundown" cities? Stepping off side walks when other white men, without or without their families, passed by?
  5. Did Polish and Italian immigrants get more work based solely on the basis that their skin was not black and brown?
  6. Did Polish and Italian suffer from redlining* by banks and lending agencies as severely as Black and brown people?

No! No! Yes! No! You betcha! No!

* The Federal Housing Administration institutionalized the system of discriminatory lending in government-backed mortgages, reflecting local race-based criteria in their underwriting practices and reinforcing residential segregation in American cities. The discriminatory practices captured by the  HOLC [Homeowners Loans Corporation] maps continued until 1968, when the Fair Housing Act banned racial discrimination in housing.

 
 
 
 
Jack_TX
11.1.2  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @11.1    4 months ago
You keep looking past the guilt.

I have no guilt to look past.  Nice try, though.

Give that a shot with a bleeding heart liberal.  They feel guilty about everything.

Did Polish and Italian immigrants get more work based solely on the basis that their skin was not black and brown? Did Polish and Italian suffer from redlining* by banks and lending agencies as severely as Black and brown people?

It's been over 50 years since the Fair Housing Act passed. (I was 2 years old)  And closer to 60 years since Kennedy signed the initial "affirmative action" order (before I was born).  How long before we admit that most of these laws aren't working?

I'll also ask the same question to you I asked somebody else before... How much money would it take to make you "feel" better? 

 
 
 
CB
11.1.3  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @11.1.2    4 months ago

I feel fine, Jack_TX. I am not the issue, here. Whatever happens reparations won't be scratching any "itch" of mine. On the other hand, damn tootin' I will take whatever money passes by.

Momma did'nt raise no fool!!! This is 'America' after all! And, I am American through and through! I am a firm believer that legal 'tender' looks good on me; the same as it would look on anybody else!

Moreover, conservatives talk a lot and sabotage even more. The lackluster way in which proponents of conservatism tackle the national issues of this country is on full display. Conservatism has become a source of the larger problem. Why? As I stated before, conservatives are not interested in unifying to aid in finding solutions which work for the diversity of this country.

Conservatives simply want to do enough to cause (systems) failure. May be even liberals are guilty now as a follow-up. All things being equal, the problem primarily manifests with conservative preservationist tendencies.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
11.1.4  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @11.1.3    4 months ago
I feel fine, Jack_TX. I am not the issue, here. Whatever happens reparations won't be scratching any "itch" of mine. On the other hand, damn tootin' I will take whatever money passes by.

Well there it is in a nutshell, eh?  

The lackluster way in which proponents of conservatism tackle the national issues of this country is on full display. 

The "feelings" of bleeding heart leftists do not "national issues" make.  

As I stated before, conservatives are not interested in unifying to aid in finding solutions which work for the diversity of this country.

Giving people money for being black is now a "solution" for "the diversity of this country"?   Again...nice try.  I think your real objection to conservatives is that they don't believe bleeding heart bullshit as easily as liberals.

 
 
 
CB
11.1.5  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @11.1.4    4 months ago

I think your ad hominem attack is irrelevant. How did know you would single that part out?! Hmm? I won't lose my cool over this, nevertheless. You won't be supplying any money that you can prove to anybody here -so there is that! Peace 'brother.'

As I stated: "Momma did not raise a fool." I will take all green backs that come my way - all day! All it has to be is legal tender! We' can debate how-comes after my 'purse' is closed.

HA!

 
 
 
Jack_TX
11.1.6  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @11.1.5    4 months ago
I think your ad hominem attack is irrelevant.

Ah.  Taking you at your word is now an "attack"?  I guess that makes as much sense as your case for why we supposedly owe you money.

How did know you would single that part out?!

The part where I noticed you're arguing the case that the only "moral" solution is to give you money?  Surely you don't think I'm the only one who notices that immediately.

Hmm? I won't lose my cool over this, nevertheless. You won't be supplying any money that you can prove to anybody here -so there is that! Peace 'brother.'

It's not going to happen, so I won't be spending the money anyway.

As I stated: "Momma did not raise a fool." I will take all green backs that come my way - all day! All it has to be is legaltender! We' can debate how-comes after my 'purse' is closed.

Well good fortune to you.  I know you're too smart to go spending your reparations money just yet.

 
 
 
CB
11.1.7  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @11.1.6    4 months ago

Yeah, this train is 'capped.' Banter later, Jack in Texas!

 
 
 
CB
11.1.8  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @11.1.2    4 months ago
It's been over 50 years since the Fair Housing Act passed. (I was 2 years old)  And closer to 60 years since Kennedy signed the initial "affirmative action" order (before I was born).  How long before we admit that most of these laws aren't working?

About as long as it will take you to get over your resentment for what our ancestors did! I'd say maybe an additional 100 years or so. Of course, we're be gone, so there is some relief from worry and guilt. Hey Jack! Conservative's ain't doing black people a "special  favor" to provide a slave's 'portion' that should have been established a long time ago.

I am sorry you resent this.

And as for stupid emotive labels—they suck!

 
 
 
Jack_TX
11.1.9  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @11.1.8    4 months ago
About as long as it will take you to get over your resentment for what our ancestors did!

You clearly have that backwards.  You're the one asking for reparations, or have you forgotten?

 
 
 
CB
11.1.10  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @11.1.9    4 months ago

This banter is going nowhere. Have. . . whatever.

 
 
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