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Different Verse, Same as the First?

  

Category:  Op/Ed

By:  sister-mary-agnes-ample-bottom  •  5 years ago  •  269 comments

Different Verse, Same as the First?

Remember this Op-ed printed in the New York Times on September 5th of last year?

I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration

I work for the president but like-minded colleagues and I have vowed to thwart parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations.

President Trump is facing a test to his presidency unlike any faced by a modern American leader.

It’s not just that the special counsel looms large. Or that the country is bitterly divided over Mr. Trump’s leadership. Or even that his party might well lose the House to an opposition hellbent on his downfall.

The dilemma — which he does not fully grasp — is that many of the senior officials in his own administration are working diligently from within to frustrate parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations.

I would know. I am one of them.

To be clear, ours is not the popular “resistance” of the left. We want the administration to succeed and think that many of its policies have already made America safer and more prosperous.

But we believe our first duty is to this country, and the president continues to act in a manner that is detrimental to the health of our republic.

That is why many Trump appointees have vowed to do what we can to preserve our democratic institutions while thwarting Mr. Trump’s more misguided impulses until he is out of office.

The root of the problem is the president’s amorality. Anyone who works with him knows he is not moored to any discernible first principles that guide his decision making.

Although he was elected as a Republican, the president shows little affinity for ideals long espoused by conservatives: free minds, free markets and free people. At best, he has invoked these ideals in scripted settings. At worst, he has attacked them outright.

In addition to his mass-marketing of the notion that the press is the “enemy of the people,” President Trump’s impulses are generally anti-trade and anti-democratic.

Don’t get me wrong. There are bright spots that the near-ceaseless negative coverage of the administration fails to capture: effective deregulation, historic tax reform, a more robust military and more.

But these successes have come despite — not because of — the president’s leadership style, which is impetuous, adversarial, petty and ineffective.

From the White House to executive branch departments and agencies, senior officials will privately admit their daily disbelief at the commander in chief’s comments and actions. Most are working to insulate their operations from his whims.

Meetings with him veer off topic and off the rails, he engages in repetitive rants, and his impulsiveness results in half-baked, ill-informed and occasionally reckless decisions that have to be walked back.

“There is literally no telling whether he might change his mind from one minute to the next,” a top official complained to me recently, exasperated by an Oval Office meeting at which the president flip-flopped on a major policy decision he’d made only a week earlier.

The erratic behavior would be more concerning if it weren’t for unsung heroes in and around the White House. Some of his aides have been cast as villains by the media. But in private, they have gone to great lengths to keep bad decisions contained to the West Wing, though they are clearly not always successful.

It may be cold comfort in this chaotic era, but Americans should know that there are adults in the room. We fully recognize what is happening. And we are trying to do what’s right even when Donald Trump won’t.

The result is a two-track presidency.

Take foreign policy: In public and in private, President Trump shows a preference for autocrats and dictators, such as President Vladimir Putin of Russia and North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong-un, and displays little genuine appreciation for the ties that bind us to allied, like-minded nations.

Astute observers have noted, though, that the rest of the administration is operating on another track, one where countries like Russia are called out for meddling and punished accordingly, and where allies around the world are engaged as peers rather than ridiculed as rivals.

On Russia, for instance, the president was reluctant to expel so many of Mr. Putin’s spies as punishment for the poisoning of a former Russian spy in Britain. He complained for weeks about senior staff members letting him get boxed into further confrontation with Russia, and he expressed frustration that the United States continued to impose sanctions on the country for its malign behavior. But his national security team knew better — such actions had to be taken, to hold Moscow accountable.

This isn’t the work of the so-called deep state. It’s the work of the steady state.

Given the instability many witnessed, there were early whispers within the cabinet of invoking the 25th Amendment, which would start a complex process for removing the president. But no one wanted to precipitate a constitutional crisis. So we will do what we can to steer the administration in the right direction until — one way or another — it’s over.

The bigger concern is not what Mr. Trump has done to the presidency but rather what we as a nation have allowed him to do to us. We have sunk low with him and allowed our discourse to be stripped of civility.

Senator John McCain put it best in his farewell letter. All Americans should heed his words and break free of the tribalism trap, with the high aim of uniting through our shared values and love of this great nation.

We may no longer have Senator McCain. But we will always have his example — a lodestar for restoring honor to public life and our national dialogue. Mr. Trump may fear such honorable men, but we should revere them.

There is a quiet resistance within the administration of people choosing to put country first. But the real difference will be made by everyday citizens rising above politics, reaching across the aisle and resolving to shed the labels in favor of a single one: Americans.

Source

Here we are, more than a year later, still dealing with Donald Trump's inept style and methods.  While the memory of the opinion piece has been over-shadowed by increasingly worse revelations coming from within this administration, the issues are the same.  And, as if on que, Trump is dealing with the issues as he did back then:  With temper tantrums and other embarrassingly childish antics.  The difference is that now, he has put this nation, my nation , in jeopardy with his clear and present disregard for The Constitution of the United States.  More concerning are the attempts by supporters to justify Trump's actions and behavior...and for what?  A border wall that isn't built?  Extra dollars put into the pockets of the already wealthy?  Hateful and abusive rhetoric directed at Democrats?   

Different verse same as the first?  No.  It's much worse.  Our democracy is under attack.  That means we are all under attack...Republicans, Independents and Dems...all.  We need to set aside partisan issues and do something now. 


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Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom    5 years ago

Trump has been demanding to know who the whistleblower is.  Considering that 55% of our nation's citizens support impeachment proceedings , I feel safe in saying that the whistleblower is us.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
Professor Guide
1.1  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1    5 years ago

I suspect that number is going to continue to climb.  As it does, GOP senators are going to start speaking out of the other sides of their mouths.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
1.1.1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @1.1    5 years ago
I suspect that number is going to continue to climb.

Up six points from yesterday.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
1.1.2  Krishna  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1.1.1    5 years ago

I saw that... long overdue! jrSmiley_2_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.1.4  JBB  replied to    5 years ago

Your poll is olde. After the weekend 55% are now in favor of impeachment...

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
1.1.5  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JBB @1.1.4    5 years ago

After the weekend 55% are now in favor of impeachment...

..."proceedings". 

Finished it for ya.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Participates
1.2  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1    5 years ago

The whistle blower is in federal protective custody.  This way Trump's minions can't bully or intimidate him like Trump would be sure to do if he knows who he is or meets with him.  Trump is demanding to know who he is saying he has the right to confront his accuser.  He can do that in court.   Hopefully the government is taking steps to protect the family also because once his identity is known, they will attacked on social media and possibly face physical harm and even death threats from the deplorables.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
1.2.1  MrFrost  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @1.2    5 years ago
Trump is demanding to know who he is saying he has the right to confront his accuser.

Of course he is, he needs to attack their character and come up a snappy nickname that his base can run to the message boards and repeat for the next 300 years because lets face it, trump can't attack the facts which in this case, are REALLY damning. 

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Participates
1.2.2  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  MrFrost @1.2.1    5 years ago

When this person does testify, he should alter his appearance.  His name should only be known to the judge, the court recorder, and the lawyers.  A gag order should be issued to those lawyers to expect contempt of court charges if they release it.  Considering the attacks that Trump could unleash, it is paramount that the whistle blower be protected as much as possible.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.3  devangelical  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1    5 years ago

the head in that picture belongs under the bus, preferably the rear tandems...

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
1.3.1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  devangelical @1.3    5 years ago
the head in that picture belongs under the bus, preferably the rear tandems..

That's where I found it.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
1.3.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1.3.1    5 years ago

That bus with Donny-Boy is a metaphor.

The bus is America and he's driving it over a cliff

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3  Trout Giggles    5 years ago

Thanks for posting this, Sis

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
3.1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Trout Giggles @3    5 years ago
Thanks for posting this, Sis

YW.  I was running low on one-liners and thought I'd better spank up something serious.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
4  Dean Moriarty    5 years ago

This letter is describing the actions of a deep state. The author isn't fooling anyone. 

deep state
noun
1. a body of people, typically influential members of government agencies or the military, believed to be involved in the secret manipulation or control of government policy.
 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1  Krishna  replied to  Dean Moriarty @4    5 years ago
The author isn't fooling anyone.

Be Afraid...be very afraid! jrSmiley_88_smiley_image.gif

320

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
4.1.1  Dean Moriarty  replied to  Krishna @4.1    5 years ago

The author is clearly deep state. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.2  MrFrost  replied to  Dean Moriarty @4.1.1    5 years ago

The author is clearly deep state. 

Just another conspiracy theory not based in reality. Like windmills cause cancer, Obama wiretapped trump tower, etc.. All bullshit, all debunked. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Dean Moriarty @4.1.1    5 years ago

The author is clearly deep state. 

Words of wisdom Moriarity-- great wisdom indeed!

But there are things we can do to protect ourselves (deep secrets known only to a few!!!)

320

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.4  MrFrost  replied to  Krishna @4.1.3    5 years ago

Oh a stylish one too.. Very nice..

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1.5  Krishna  replied to  MrFrost @4.1.4    5 years ago
Oh a stylish one too.. Very nice..

Just my opinion of course...but if you're going to be paranoid, you might as well do it in style! 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.6  MrFrost  replied to  Krishna @4.1.5    5 years ago

Slap some blue lightning bolts on the side... Hell ya!

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.8  MrFrost  replied to  Dean Moriarty @4.1.1    5 years ago

The author is clearly deep state. 

Dean, did you ever notice that every time trump says or does something stupid/illegal/immoral, he always has a conspiracy theory to back it up with? None of which are ever true, of course. 

 
 
 
TTGA
Professor Silent
4.1.11  TTGA  replied to  MrFrost @4.1.2    5 years ago
The author is clearly deep state. 
Just another conspiracy theory not based in reality.

What theory?  The author just admitted that it exists and that he is part of it.  What else could this mean?

I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration I work for the president but like-minded colleagues and I have vowed to thwart parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations.

Actually, the Deep State was described as early as 1978 as the top two levels of the unelected bureaucracy.  I would suggest that you read A Time For Truth (1978) by William E. Simon, former Secretary of the Treasury.  The Deep State is the modern equivalent of the Chinese Mandarin Class in the early Chinese Empire.  While the Emperor reigned, they actually ruled.  That may work well for an ancient empire but it most certainly is not all right in a republic.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.12  MrFrost  replied to  XDm9mm @4.1.9    5 years ago

MrFrost, did you ever notice that every time a DEMOCRAT says or does something stupid or utters a vitriolic anti President Trump diatribe, he/she always has a conspiracy theory to back it up with? None of which are ever true, of course.

Wasn't a dem that said windmills cause cancer, "deep state", Obama not born in the USA, hurricane maria death toll, Qanon, murder of seth rich, spy gate, 3 million illegals voting, white genocide conspiracy, etc.... It's a long list. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.14  MrFrost  replied to  XDm9mm @4.1.13    5 years ago

And that has anything to do with what I responded to how?

every time a DEMOCRAT says or does something stupid or utters a vitriolic anti President Trump diatribe, he/she always has a conspiracy theory to back it up with?

........................

You said that, yes? That's what I was replying to. Dems aren't the ones spreading conspiracy theories every time something goes wrong, that would be The Orange Crested Howler Monkey in the WH. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.16  MrFrost  replied to  XDm9mm @4.1.15    5 years ago
Russia, Russia, Russia Collusion, Collusion, Collusion

The Mueller report specifically stated that while trump didn't seek out help from Russia, he did accept help from Russia when it was offered. Mueller reiterated that fact when he testified after the report was released. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1.19  Krishna  replied to  Release The Kraken @4.1.7    5 years ago
Had we elected Bernie or Jill Stein, the government would have disposed of them too.

If we had elected either of them.

If!

That reminds me of an olde saying:

If my grandmother had a wheel and two handles, she's be a wheelbarrow!

IF!

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
4.1.20  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  MrFrost @4.1.16    5 years ago
The Mueller report specifically stated that while trump didn't seek out help from Russia...

Hold up.  He did seek help from Russia.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.22  MrFrost  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @4.1.20    5 years ago

I stand corrected, I forgot about that. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.23  MrFrost  replied to  XDm9mm @4.1.21    5 years ago

Not really.   He told them IF they have the emails she deleted the MEDIA would probably like them.  He never asked for them personally.  NEXT.

Yea, really. Do you really think he would ask for them to HELP the media that he slams on a daily basis? No. He asked so they could be used AGAINST Clinton during the election HE was running in. 

Do you really need for him to say, "Hey russia, help me win the election by getting the missing emails!!!!", for you to understand what he was saying? My god man. Reading between the lines really ISN'T your thing is it? 

I've been trying to play nice with you but good god man, enough with the spin ok? 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.24  CB  replied to  Dean Moriarty @4.1.1    5 years ago

And Dean, its gonna get you at last! At last! "The Deepness" - the deepness, I said! Trump and his 'shallow' state are blah! Who wants this shallow state with Donald looking down all the 'avenues' to see if anybody, I mean any minion at all, gets out of its box! Make no mistake, Trump is running a TV show from the White House. It's called:

APPRENTICE: White House Edition

th?id=OIP.l78kZVh1gqfQ6wyu-4wmrgHaEK&pid

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
4.1.25  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @4.1.3    5 years ago

It's "bowl-shaped", and you know what they are now saying about that.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.2  Tessylo  replied to  Dean Moriarty @4    5 years ago

That deep state bullshit?

jrSmiley_44_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Tessylo @4.2    5 years ago

a deep state is where those traitors that defy due process of the constitution will ultimately find themselves

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
4.2.2  Sunshine  replied to  devangelical @4.2.1    5 years ago
I have vowed to thwart parts of his agenda 

Those who are determined to undermine a duly elected President without due process care about the constitution?

Pelosi and company can tell the bullshit about caring about the constitution to her sheeple.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.2.3  devangelical  replied to  Sunshine @4.2.2    5 years ago

that's not my quote. nice try...

mental defectives that believe their demigod is above the constitution will find themselves in the same political trench

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
4.2.4  Sunshine  replied to  devangelical @4.2.3    5 years ago
that's not my quote. nice try...

Didn't say it was.  It is from the article.  

believe their demigod is above the constitution 

You must be speaking of Obama and his fan club that protected Hillary.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.2.5  Krishna  replied to  Sunshine @4.2.2    5 years ago
Those who are determined to undermine a duly elected President without due process care about the constitution?

That's why Pelosi has not advocated by-passing due process but rather she's finally agreed to begin the process-- of Impeachment hearings (to determine whether or not to proceed to the next step).

Don't you ever watch (or read) the news?

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
4.2.6  Sunshine  replied to  Krishna @4.2.5    5 years ago
Don't you ever watch (or read) the news?

Why yes I try, do you?

I have vowed to thwart parts of his agenda 
Those who are determined to undermine a duly elected President without due process care about the constitution?

I was referring to the author of the article.  If you followed the conversation, you would know that.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.2.8  Krishna  replied to  Sunshine @4.2.4    5 years ago
You must be speaking of Obama and his fan club that protected Hillary.

Surely you must be aware that neither of them is still in office?

(Or...maybe not?)

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
4.2.9  Dulay  replied to  XDm9mm @4.2.7    5 years ago
Actually, it's never been noted by ANYONE, Republican nor Democrat that there has been an official vote in the House Judiciary committee to commence an Impeachment Inquiry. 

Are you under some kind of delusion that the Judiciary committee has to vote to commence an Impeachment Inquiry? 

Oh, BTFW, on Sept. 12 the Judiciary Committee had a hearing on the Resolution for Investigative Procedures and the Resolution was agreed upon. Those rules will be used during the Impeachment Inquiry hearings. It says so right in the resolution. You should go read it. Or you can watch the hearing here:

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
4.3  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Dean Moriarty @4    5 years ago
This letter is describing the actions of a deep state

The letter is describing the actions of someone in a deep state.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
5  MrFrost    5 years ago

Since this "Ukraine" story broke, trumps approval rating has been dropping like a brick thrown off trump tower...

(posted at 8:03am, 9/30/19)

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
6  MrFrost    5 years ago

Thanks Sis! Great article!!!

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
7  Sunshine    5 years ago

Well, all of us just have to let it play out like we did the Mueller report and we know how that ended.  Democrats made fools of themselves with that and everything else they have thrown at the wall, but nothing has stuck.  This debacle that they have started will make fools of them again just in time for an election.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
7.1  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Sunshine @7    5 years ago

The fools have been, and continue to be, the supporters and defenders of a national embarrassment, as they support Russia's choice to preside and have it be denied.

If you don't realize Putins' accomplishemnts at bargain basement small %'s of our ridiculous 700 billionish military budget, you should. 

Our country continues to be in denial, and it is a concern for us all. We are all mericans first. Sooner or later , people have to realize  

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
7.1.1  Sunshine  replied to  igknorantzrulz @7.1    5 years ago
The fools have been, and continue to be, the supporters and defenders of a national embarrassment,

Yes they have and continue on with their humiliation. I suppose Mueller didn't provide enough red meat for them.  More material for the sane people to laugh and snicker at while the clown show continues.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
7.1.2  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Sunshine @7.1.1    5 years ago
More material for the sane people to laugh and snicker at while the clown show continues.

We giggle, chortle, chuckle, laugh, guffaw, cackle, and occasionally snigger, but we seldom snicker.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
7.1.3  Sunshine  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @7.1.2    5 years ago
but we seldom snicker.

we know

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
7.1.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @7.1.2    5 years ago

Speak for yourself, Sis. I constantly snicker

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
7.1.5  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Trout Giggles @7.1.4    5 years ago
Speak for yourself, Sis. I constantly snicker

The only time I snicker is when there is a doodle at the end of it.

jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
7.1.6  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @7.1.4    5 years ago

Sometimes I let out a snort, kind of embarrassing though.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
7.1.7  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Ender @7.1.6    5 years ago
Sometimes I let out a snort, kind of embarrassing though.

I forgot about the snort.  There are really two kinds of snorts.  One is the kitty-cat snort that is rather cute and endearing.  Then there is the all-out, off-the-chain, OMG did I just do that?! snort.  I find that those who exhibit the second kind of snort show a great deal of enthusiasm for laughter and the lighter side of life in general...at least that's what I tell myself when I do it. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
7.2  MrFrost  replied to  Sunshine @7    5 years ago
Well, all of us just have to let it play out like we did the Mueller report and we know how that ended.

512

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
7.2.1  Sunshine  replied to  MrFrost @7.2    5 years ago

No evidence any American colluded with Russia....ain't that nice.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
7.2.2  MrFrost  replied to  Sunshine @7.2.1    5 years ago

No evidence any American colluded with Russia....ain't that nice.

Ok, that's not what I was replying to. I quoted what I was replying to. You're just trying to spin away from it. Not happening. Sorry. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
7.2.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Sunshine @7.2.1    5 years ago
No evidence any American colluded with Russia....ain't that nice.

So it's more of a glory hole situation with Trump just sticking his tiny dick through the hole...

"Russia, if you're listening... my campaign dick is dry, and a tape of me saying bad stuff was just released, so... not asking for any help, but if your mouth happens to fall on that flaccid flesh sticking through the hole in the stall, no one would ever know..."

“I believe I would get along very nicely with Putin."

"I don’t think you would need the sanctions,”

"Ooooh, yeah, that feels nice, release those stolen private US citizen emails... yeah, I like that..."

"Mmmmmm, those fake ads all over social media, that feels so good... and you greasing me up with $1.25 million a month worth of those deceptive pieces of slime against my opponent, feels so incredible..."

"Oh my, warm hands cupping my campaign, hacking 22 State voter databases and being given campaign polling data by my campaign manager so you can target American voters for me, so tender, so gentle..."

"But I didn't collude! I swear! My dick sucked itself!"...

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
7.2.4  Sunshine  replied to  MrFrost @7.2.2    5 years ago

I was talking about the Mueller report, why bring up Hillary?

You're just trying to spin away from it.

You tell others she is not relevant anymore so why do you keep bringing up Benghazi?

No evidence Americans colluded with Russia is how that investigation ended.  But the deranged Democrats keep on howling.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
7.2.5  1stwarrior  replied to  MrFrost @7.2    5 years ago

Think Frosty - think buddy.  

Billary was NEVER SWORN IN when she was questioned by any of the committees - NEVER.

ALL of the person's questioned by Mueller were sworn in - ALL OF THEM.

Now think for a minute - if you're NOT sworn in, you can friggin' lie all you want and they, the questioniers, can not charge you for falsification/lying during questioning.

Huge difference.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
7.2.6  pat wilson  replied to  Sunshine @7.2.1    5 years ago

Who cares about collusion ? It's obstruction, a crime of which he has NOT been proven innocent. Mueller couldn't do that and he said so ad nauseam. 

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
7.2.7  Sunshine  replied to  pat wilson @7.2.6    5 years ago
Who cares about collusion

Everyone did until the Mueller report was released.  Why is that?

a crime of which he has NOT been proven innocent

I see you do not believe in the rule of law or due process.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
7.2.8  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Sunshine @7.2.7    5 years ago
I see you do not believe in the rule of law or due process.

As if the justice system gets it right every time. No, Mueller couldn't conclusively prove Trump criminally conspired with Putin, just like prosecutors couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that OJ stabbed his wife and Ron Goldman. Trump had everyone around him lying to investigators, Mueller said that did impede the investigation, and Trump said "I don't remember" more than 30 times to the written questions which were all Mueller was allowed ask.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
7.2.9  Sunshine  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @7.2.8    5 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
7.2.10  Texan1211  replied to  pat wilson @7.2.6    5 years ago
It's obstruction, a crime of which he has NOT been proven innocent.

Even MORE importantly, it isn't a crime he has ever been charged with, so why on earth would he be found innocent OR guilty?

Have you been found innocent of beating your mother?

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
7.2.11  pat wilson  replied to  Sunshine @7.2.7    5 years ago

I simply stated the facts. Your comment about what I believe is ludicrous.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
7.2.12  MrFrost  replied to  1stwarrior @7.2.5    5 years ago
Billary was NEVER SWORN IN when she was questioned by any of the committees - NEVER.

She did an 11 hour live tv interrogation under oath, that's just the one I can remember off the top of my head. How many times has trump testified under oath? Never. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
7.2.13  Split Personality  replied to  1stwarrior @7.2.5    5 years ago
Think Frosty - think buddy.   Billary was NEVER SWORN IN when she was questioned by any of the committees - NEVER.

Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi !

It certainly appears that Hillary was indeed questioned under oath during one of the Benghazi committee hearings

You can even watch some of it on CSPAN

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
7.2.14  CB  replied to  MrFrost @7.2.12    5 years ago

Can you believe it? Trump could not even get through a 'lawyered' set of questions with the Special Counsel remarking on the poor quality of the answers! 1stwarrior, your pick for president is truly unremarkable, but that is is not the worst of it, Donald is sadly pathetic. Walk will me 1stwarrior,. . .down to the studio window where Donald is testifying " L I V E: ON  AIR" before a House committee and not only is he lying over the hardball questions from the democrats, Donald is lying on the softball questions from Republicans.

Underhand-toss-to-the-2nd-baseman.jpg

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
7.2.16  CB  replied to    5 years ago

Hi Karri! Momma Trump might have raised a boy who grew up to be selfish in the extreme, but she did not raise a total fool! Donald ain't announcing it outright, but he knows what side his bread browns!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
7.3  Krishna  replied to  Sunshine @7    5 years ago
we know how that ended.

Some people don't. So..how did it end?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
8  Nerm_L    5 years ago

Well, impeachment won't happen any time soon.  Senators Warren, Sanders, Harris, Booker,  Klobuchar, and Bennet have declared themselves to be political opponents of Donald Trump by running for President this election cycle.  Democrats have demanded officials recuse themselves from any investigative or judicial proceedings for far less.  The participation of Senators running for President would only create the perception that impeachment was a political circus and Democrats wouldn't fare well.

An impeachment trial really can't begin until after the DNC convention closes on July 16, 2020.  And an impeachment trial during the general election campaign would be a disadvantage for incumbent Senators running for reelection.  

The political collapse of the Mueller investigation really did stymie efforts to impeach Trump.  It's too late to go forward with impeachment that isn't tainted by election politics.  Especially with so many Congressional Democrats running for President.  Nancy Pelosi is going to do the grand stall and try to run out the clock.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
8.1  MrFrost  replied to  Nerm_L @8    5 years ago
Well, impeachment won't happen any time soon. 

The dems said the same thing about Clinton. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
8.1.1  Nerm_L  replied to  MrFrost @8.1    5 years ago
The dems said the same thing about Clinton. 

Bill Clinton was impeached in the middle of his second term.  Clinton's impeachment affected the midterm elections.  The timing of the Mueller investigation coincided with the midterm elections of Trump's first term.

Democrats launching an impeachment trial going into a general election for President won't be the same as Clinton's impeachment.  The political stakes will be much higher for a Trump impeachment than it was for the Clinton impeachment.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.2  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @8    5 years ago
The political collapse of the Mueller investigation really did stymie efforts to impeach Trump.

That's debatable.

But remember-- new evidence of possible crimes have come to light since then!

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
8.2.1  Nerm_L  replied to  Krishna @8.2    5 years ago
That's debatable. But remember-- new evidence of possible crimes have come to light since then!

Richard Nixon resigned in the middle of his second term; three months before the midterm elections.  Bill Clinton's impeachment spanned the midterm elections and the trial concluded four months after the midterm election.

Impeaching Trump during a general election won't be politically the same as either the Nixon investigations or Clinton's impeachment.  History doesn't really serve as a guide for impeaching a President in the midst of a general election.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.2.2  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @8.2.1    5 years ago
History doesn't really serve as a guide for impeaching a President in the midst of a general election.

No-- bu t the U.S. Constitution does!

(And it doesn't matter at what stage in the election cycle it occurs).

But then-- I assume you knew that (didn't you?) 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
8.2.3  Nerm_L  replied to  Krishna @8.2.2    5 years ago
No-- bu t the U.S. Constitution does!

(And it doesn't matter at what stage in the election cycle it occurs).

But then-- I assume you knew that (didn't you?) 

Democrats seem to have adopted the nasty habit of ignoring voters.  The concern is that Democrats will impeach Trump and voters will impeach Democrats.

There are several Democrats in Congress running for President.  It won't be easy to avoid allegations that the impeachment has been rigged for political gain.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
9  MrFrost    5 years ago

Con logic:

Impeaching for lying about a blowjob? Good.

Impeaching for trying to use a foreign country to win a presidential election? Bad.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
9.2  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  MrFrost @9    5 years ago
Con logic:

Impeaching for lying about a blowjob? Good.

Impeaching for trying to use a foreign country to win a presidential election? Bad.

Straight up fabulous comment.  

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
9.3  Sunshine  replied to  MrFrost @9    5 years ago
Impeaching for lying about a blowjob? Good.

Well we know that the hound dog Billy Boy lied under oath, we have proof.

Impeaching for trying to use a foreign country to win a presidential election? Bad.

At this point, this is just Democrats howling like the crying wolf again.

The comparison is idiotic.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
9.3.1  MrFrost  replied to  Sunshine @9.3    5 years ago
At this point, this is just Democrats howling like the crying wolf again.

Well someone is living in denial... LOL

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
9.3.2  Sunshine  replied to  MrFrost @9.3.1    5 years ago

Where is the vote?  

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.3.4  Krishna  replied to  Sunshine @9.3    5 years ago
Well we know that the hound dog Billy Boy lied under oath, we have proof.

He's no longer in office (surprised you didn't know that)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.3.5  Krishna  replied to  XDm9mm @9.3.3    5 years ago
Are you saying wishes, hopes and dreams aren't viable?   Damn.

I think I can speak for most of us when I say that 

Our Thoughts and Prayers are with all the folks who think Hillary still holds office, and has too much power-- so she must be impeached!

(Don't laugh-- some people still feel that way).

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
9.3.6  MrFrost  replied to  Sunshine @9.3.2    5 years ago
Where is the vote?  

Maybe after the inquiry is done? Christ, they just opened it last week, patience. 

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
9.3.7  Sunshine  replied to  MrFrost @9.3.6    5 years ago
Christ, they just opened it last week, patience. 

But, you have Trump guilty and comparing him to Billy Boy already.  Who is living in denial?

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
9.3.8  Sunshine  replied to  Krishna @9.3.4    5 years ago
He's no longer in office (surprised you didn't know that)

Surprised you can't follow a thread.  

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
9.3.9  1stwarrior  replied to  MrFrost @9.3.6    5 years ago

Frosty - you need to catch up bubba.  Inquiries of/about/regarding/concerning Trump began prior to the election in 2016.  When are they gonna learn they've got the losing hand???

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
9.3.10  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  1stwarrior @9.3.9    5 years ago
Frosty - you need to catch up bubba.  Inquiries of/about/regarding/concerning Trump began prior to the election in 2016.

That was just the appetizer.  The meat and potatoes are slapping us in the face right now.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
9.3.11  MrFrost  replied to  1stwarrior @9.3.9    5 years ago
Inquiries of/about/regarding/concerning Trump began prior to the election in 2016.

Perhaps, but a good portion of it was well placed as well. In any case my friend, the right doesn't have much room to talk in that area. How long has the right been running Hillary into the ground? 20...25 years? 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.3.13  Tessylo  replied to  XDm9mm @9.3.12    5 years ago

Schiff didn't make up dick.  

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
9.3.16  Sunshine  replied to  Kathleen @9.3.15    5 years ago
I hate that glaring eyed bobble headed asshole.

I bet he treats is staff like dirt.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
10  Ender    5 years ago
think that many of its policies have already made America safer and more prosperous effective deregulation, historic tax reform, a more robust military and more

Sorry but no. Harshly disagree. What in the world has he done to make us safer? Nothing. Stronger military? Please, he is taking money from the military for his fucking wall. All the fucking deregulation is only going to hurt us, the little people, in the long run. The tax reform was a really sad joke played on all of us, with no growth to show for it. Any tax cuts the smaller people may have received are eaten up by his tariffs.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11  Tacos!    5 years ago
The difference is that now, he has put this nation, my nation , in jeopardy with his clear and present disregard for The Constitution of the United States.

The nation? The nation is not in jeopardy. The nation is just fine. See, it's extreme hyperbole like this that makes it hard to take people seriously when they complain about Trump.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
11.1  MrFrost  replied to  Tacos! @11    5 years ago
See, it's extreme hyperbole like this that makes it hard to take people seriously when they complain about Trump.

But that's all some people understand...

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
11.2  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Tacos! @11    5 years ago
The nation? The nation is not in jeopardy.

Asking a foreign nation for help with any problem, be it political or otherwise, indicates a weakness that can be exploited.  

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11.2.1  Tacos!  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @11.2    5 years ago
Asking a foreign nation for help with any problem, be it political or otherwise, indicates a weakness that can be exploited.

You're kidding, right? We should never ask another country for help with anything??? We got help from France winning our independence and we have been getting help from other countries on an endless variety of issues ever since.

Our previous president - you might have heard of him? Barack Obama? - was like Mr. Globalism. He wanted to do everything under the sun in cooperation with other countries. If anything, the current president represents a turn away from that. He just got through making a speech at the UN where he reiterated his long standing position that he is interested in taking care of America first, and a lot of people criticize him for that.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
11.2.3  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Tacos! @11.2.1    5 years ago

There is a difference between asking for help with diplomacy, and asking for help with depravity.  

 
 
 
lib50
Professor Silent
11.2.4  lib50  replied to  Tacos! @11.2.1    5 years ago
We should never ask another country for help with anything???

If we are talking about a president using US power to further his personal gain, NO, we don't.  And it should not need to be explained why.  Some may try to compare it to the Steele dossier, but  its not remotely the same thing, if one wants to know its all readily available to read.   It looks like Trump also tried to use Australia for personal political gains.  300 former national security officials say Trump compromised national security with his actions.  Its not acceptable.  He is not taking care of America AT ALL, he uses America, and he is taking care of Trump first and always. No country trusts us, and all know exactly how to manipulate Trump if they want something.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11.2.7  Tacos!  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @11.2.3    5 years ago
There is a difference between asking for help with diplomacy, and asking for help with depravity.

Trump wants to know what Biden did as Vice President. You really think that's depraved?

I think depraved is putting out some story that a private citizen candidate gets hookers to pee on him. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11.2.8  Tacos!  replied to  lib50 @11.2.4    5 years ago
And it should not need to be explained why.

Yes, it should. If you want people to be so pissed off that they are willing to undo an election over it, you should have to explain it to them - without exaggeration or hyperbole - relying on hard, unequivocal facts, and you should not feel offended about having to do it. You should be proud to do it because you respect the gravity of what you are asking.

It looks like

It looks like? Sorry but that not close to the standard I and much of America will require. Looks like ain't gonna cut it. You want to impeach the president based on "looks like." That's terrible.

He is not taking care of America AT ALL

Hey, if you think he's a shitty president, that's fine. Vote the bum out next November. That's what elections are for. But that's not a reason to put the country through impeachment.

all know exactly how to manipulate Trump if they want something

All countries try to manipulate all world leaders all the time. That's not new. This catastrophizing is a huge problem for America. Too many people, because of political tribalism, try to characterize normal things as apocalyptic.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
11.2.9  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @11.2.7    5 years ago

You truly do not understand that it is highly unethical for the president of the United States to use his office to instigate investigation of his main election rival. 

It's kind of incredible that so many people today seem to not understand that. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
11.2.10  JohnRussell  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @11.2.3    5 years ago

512

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
11.2.11  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @11.2.9    5 years ago
his main election rival. 

LMFAO!

Perhaps you should wait to declare that to see if old sleepy Joe even IS the nominee.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11.2.12  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @11.2.9    5 years ago
You truly do not understand that it is highly unethical for the president of the United States to use his office to instigate investigation of his main election rival

Who should then?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11.2.14  Tacos!  replied to    5 years ago

Or you could have just answered the question without all that other um, stuff.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
11.2.15  Tessylo  replied to  Tacos! @11.2.1    5 years ago

The 'president' is interested in taking care of HIMSELF first and no one else.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
11.2.16  Tessylo  replied to  Tacos! @11.2.14    5 years ago
"Or you could have just answered the question without all that other um, stuff."

jrSmiley_40_smiley_image.gif

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11.2.18  Tacos!  replied to    5 years ago
So the answer to your question (If not Trump, then who?) the answer is NO ONE.

Then you have just created a system where no politician can ever be investigated for anything he did while serving so long as he declares he is running for office. You have just released them all from accountability to the public.

No thanks.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11.2.20  Tacos!  replied to    5 years ago
I was all for the Mueller investigation and for the impeachment inquiry.

Well, you might consider whether or not you approve of investigating a candidate only when it's a candidate you know you already don't like.

oppo research

I think there is a difference between "oppo research" and uncovering details of actions by a public servant you have every right to.

after holding back on Congressionally-approved military aid.

My understanding is the aid had already been unfrozen, so unsurprisingly, it wasn't even in the conversation.

And, if you are referring to Biden and son, that had been investigated by that country and they were found to have done nothing wrong.

That may well be true. I'm not really concerned with what Hunter Biden was up to. I mean I guess I might care a little, but not very much. I'm much more concerned with any abuse of power by the VP.

That is: if the VP used his influence to protect himself and/or his son (and he might have done that whether he or Hunter had done anything wrong or not), I think the American people - and certainly the current president - have a right to know about it. That's not nearly the same thing as standard oppo research.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
14  JohnRussell    5 years ago

I'm glad that my friend Sister Mary has a very popular seed /article up for discussion. But this is not a complicated topic. Even though "anonymous" wrote a devastating op-ed about the Trump presidency over  a year ago, nothing has changed because "deplorable" support for the asshole has not changed. Nothing will ever take a toll on trump, IN HIS MIND, until his support with his base falters. He thinks he can get elected with 40 percent of the vote. (Bad at math). 

People who will continue to support Trump, no matter how ridiculous defense of him is forced by events to become, ARE the cause of most of our political problems today. 

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
14.1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  JohnRussell @14    5 years ago
I'm glad that my friend Sister Mary has a very popular seed /article up for discussion. But this is not a complicated topic.

Um...thanks...I guess.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
14.1.1  CB  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @14.1    5 years ago

LOL! Sister! Leave it up to our birthday boy to figuratively stab the heart of the matter. "Our" John Russell is always fastened to the floor and grounded. Also, Sister! Home-run at bat!

Gotta sparkling-red-glitter-heart-gif-animatio   good old JR!

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
14.1.2  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  CB @14.1.1    5 years ago
LOL! Sister! Leave it up to our birthday boy to figuratively stab the heart of the matter.

Apparently I'm a smartass on one article, and a dumbass on this one.  That boy needs to make up his mind.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
14.1.3  CB  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @14.1.2    5 years ago

HA!

John Russell: PRICELESS*

* I would like two JRs, please!!

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Participates
15  Paula Bartholomew    5 years ago

Mayor Pete...2020

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
15.1  MrFrost  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @15    5 years ago

I like the guy, I would happily vote for him............or any dem running, to be honest. Hell, I would hold my nose and vote for Bernie if I had to. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
15.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  MrFrost @15.1    5 years ago

I would prefer that the dem nominee not be Bernie or Gabbard but I will vote for whoever the nominee is.  

I like Mayor Pete too, a lot.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
15.1.2  CB  replied to  Tessylo @15.1.1    5 years ago

Mayor Pete is really an interesting and solid speaker! Of course, the question is and will be: Is the citizenry ready for 'the Gay'? Though, it will confuse conservatives mightily as to how should they run Trump against him. Were it to be so, that is.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
15.1.3  Sunshine  replied to  MrFrost @15.1    5 years ago
Bernie if I had to. 

You should write in Hillary.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
15.1.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  CB @15.1.2    5 years ago

I'm ready for a nominee like Mayor Pete. I don't care who he sleeps with

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
15.1.5  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @15.1.4    5 years ago

Same  here.  At least he only sleeps with one person.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
15.1.6  CB  replied to  Trout Giggles @15.1.4    5 years ago

Good on you! TG, "You're my Hero!"

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
15.1.7  Trout Giggles  replied to  CB @15.1.6    5 years ago

Is where I should mention I sleep with a cat?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
15.1.8  CB  replied to  Sunshine @15.1.3    5 years ago

Aw, you go on from here now with that!

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
15.1.9  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @15.1.7    5 years ago

So many ways to go with this...haha

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
15.1.10  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @15.1.7    5 years ago

Better it comes out now than later TG

Shesleepswithhercatgate#/catslutgate#

It will be in all the tabloids

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
15.1.12  Ender  replied to  Tessylo @15.1.10    5 years ago

Who doesn't like to go to bed with a pussy...

(told ya, I could get bad with this one: )

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
15.1.13  Tessylo  replied to    5 years ago

What's weird about it?  Dont you mean he met him at a shelter?

So the guy in the homeless shelter was unworthy?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
15.1.14  CB  replied to  Trout Giggles @15.1.7    5 years ago

*Gasp** what you talkin bout TG? 320 Should I be worried? Call someone?
H A !

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
15.1.16  JBB  replied to    5 years ago

Where did you come up with that bullcrap? Chasen Glezman is a 29 year old public  junior high school teacher with a masters degree from DePaul University. He teaches both Humanities and Drama and is well respected by coworkers, parents and students. There is not one hint I could find of him ever being homeless or having suffered any mental problems. Is there nobody safe from the slanders spewed by the far rightwing propaganda machine. Slander is shameful. At long last have you no decency left? You should be ashamed of yourself...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
15.1.17  CB  replied to    5 years ago

What means this? The 'well-placed' couple met on a dating app: HINGE.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
15.1.18  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tessylo @15.1.10    5 years ago

A fish who sleeps with a cat...there's quite a scandal there!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
15.1.19  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @15.1.18    5 years ago

It's best to get ahead of things before you run for office.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
15.1.20  Tessylo  replied to    5 years ago

That has been proven to be a lie.  Why do you keep posting it?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
15.1.21  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tessylo @15.1.19    5 years ago

A fish who sleeps with a cat running for Dog Catcher......

That should make the National Enquirer, don't you think?

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
15.2  Sunshine  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @15    5 years ago
Mayor Pete...2020

If he wins, we will have the first First Spouse.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
16  Buzz of the Orient    5 years ago

Although I think it's possible that the NYT article could be fake news, I do wonder why the WH staff couldn't stop him from calling Jews disloyal, or from causing a trade war that is more harmful to Americans than it is to the Chinese.

 
 

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