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Seven Outright Falsehoods in GOP Staff Report on Impeachment

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  john-russell  •  5 years ago  •  93 comments

 Seven Outright Falsehoods in GOP Staff Report on Impeachment
witness testimony showed that, in the entirety of the U.S. government, there is exactly one person who is known to have been in favor of the hold on security assistance to Ukraine. And that is President Trump himself. Witnesses unanimously testified that the agencies were given no explanation for the hold (see Part II), or for the eventual decision to restore the aid.

Long article. Skipping around in it is ok.  I'm going to listen to it as text to voice while I eat breakfast. 


S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



On December 2, 2019, Republican staff of the three committees overseeing the impeachment inquiry published a   report   prepared for the GOP Chairs: Representatives Devin Nunes, Jim Jordan, and Michael McCaul. This report, however, is not a serious examination of the evidence, nor is it intended to be. Unlike the House Intelligence Committee’s   Trump-Ukraine Impeachment Inquiry Report   , the minority staff report makes no attempt to construct a coherent statement of facts, nor to offer its own version of events as an alternative to the one set forth in the majority’s report. The point of the minority report is not to offer an explanation of what really happened, but to make what really happened seem unknowable.

Not everything in the report is a lie. In many instances, it is clear that, where possible, there was great care taken to avoid outright mistruths, through the careful phrasing of arguments to suggest a more sweeping defense than is actually offered, or through focusing on irrelevant and ambiguous witness testimony while ignoring direct and clear testimony to the contrary.

But staying within the bounds of the factual record – or even within the bounds of reasonable subjective interpretation of the record – could only get House Republican staff so far, and much of the report doesn’t just dance around the truth so much as it strides into deliberate falsehood. In order to depict the events at the heart of the Trump-Ukraine impeachment inquiry in a light that could at all be construed as a defense of President Trump’s conduct, it appears that some outright lies were needed.

Here is a list of the seven most damaging falsehoods included in the minority report:

1.   “Although the security assistance was paused in July, it is not unusual for U.S. foreign assistance to become delayed.”   (Minority at 32)

The minority report dismisses the hold on the security assistance to Ukraine as a routine quirk in the way government operates – “not unusual,” and nothing more than “a bureaucratic issue that would be resolved.” (Minority at 32)

This is a lie. The hold was not routine – nothing like it had ever happened before. (e.g., Cooper at 98; Sandy at 88) The hold was not bureaucratic – it was ordered directly by President Trump himself. (e.g., Hale at 180) And the hold was not due to any sort of interagency conflict – because “the unanimous view of all the agencies [involved in Ukraine and apportionment policy] was that the hold should be lifted and the aid should flow to Ukraine.” (Williams at 115)

In fact, witness testimony showed that, in the entirety of the U.S. government, there is exactly one person who is known to have been in favor of the hold on security assistance to Ukraine. And that is President Trump himself. Witnesses unanimously testified that the agencies were given no explanation for the hold (see Part II), or for the eventual decision to restore the aid.

What’s perhaps most devastating to the Minority’s argument is that the White House actually exceeded the deadline for all of the security assistance to be spent—despite the Pentagon’s warning this would occur (Cooper). It took a new act of Congress to restore the full aid, which occurred in September.

As multiple witnesses testified before the HPSCI, “[T]he provision of such assistance [to Ukraine] was uniformly supported at State, Defense, the National Security Council, the House of Representatives, the Senate, and the expert community in Washington.” (Volker Depo at 20). [1]   This universal support is due to the unanimous recognition that the assistance to Ukraine is critical to U.S. foreign policy and national security interests, and should be continued. ( See ,   e.g. , Kent at 319-320; Holmes at 154; Hale at 177; Cooper at 15-16)

As a result, when the hold was first announced to the broader interagency process during a July 18th meeting, it was met with “unanimous” opposition from the agencies in attendance. (Morrison at 264) The reaction from everyone was “[t]hat the aid is essential to Ukraine’s security, the U.S. relationship with Ukraine, and it should be released at the earliest opportunity.” (Morrison at 162) In the weeks following the announcement of the hold, multiple interagency meetings were held at all levels to discuss what it would take for President Trump to change his mind. Ambassador Hale described how, in an interagency meeting convened on July 26th to discuss the hold, the Deputy National Security Adviser “asked each agency, starting with me, as the State’s senior cabinet agency what our view was on this matter, and I advocated strongly for resuming the assistance, as did every other agency represented there with the exception of one, which was the OMB,” who “said that they had guidance from the President and from Acting Chief of Staff Mulvaney to freeze the assistance.” (Hale at 81) Even OMB did not offer support for the hold itself – instead, OMB “wasn’t expressing its policy views, [ ] they were relaying the President’s decision to withhold security assistance for Ukraine.” (Sandy at 99-100) But as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Cooper testified, OMB’s insertion of itself into this part of the process was itself a strange and remarkable occurrence: “ I had never heard of OMB injecting itself into a purely policy discussion or decision-making process . What struck me about it especially is, first,   that that position was in contrast to all of the traditional foreign policy-making agencies long held and long expressed views . And, secondly, that the objection or concerns expressed were not related to the money, the budget part of OMB, but rather to the policy part of the decision.” (Cooper at 9)

Efforts to reverse President Trump’s decision to freeze the security assistance were extensive, as were efforts to minimize the hold’s damaging effects. The Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, and National Security Advisor were all personally involved in the campaign, and had series of meetings with Trump to try and convince him to reverse course, without success. (Taylor at 213) Both Secretary of State Pompeo and NSA Bolton had one-on-one meetings with President Trump in a failed effort to convince him to unfreeze the assistance. (Morrison at 172-173) At one point in mid-August, Ambassador Bolton even ordered that a draft Presidential Decision Memorandum be prepared, ordering the release of the aid. (Morrison at 166) Bolton’s plan was to arrange for a meeting in which the heads of the relevant executive agencies would all meet with President Trump in private, “to tell the President they endorsed the swift release and disbursement of the funding.” (Morrison at 166, 265) The hope was that in the face of the principals’ unanimous opposition to the hold, Trump might momentarily relent, at which point Bolton would already have the Presidential Decision Memorandum on hand for Trump to immediately sign and memorialize the release. (Morrison at 265)

The overwhelming consensus of Trump’s own cabinet officials was that the decision to halt the security assistance was dangerous, destructive, and indefensible. The minority report dismisses their concerns as nothing more than the discomfort of “unelected bureaucrats within the foreign policy and national security apparatus who fundamentally disagreed with President Trump’s style, world view, and decisions.” (Minority of 110)

The minority report takes the position that the hold was a sound policy decision, and never explicitly acknowledges the negative policy consequences. However, the minority report does suggest that, even if the hold was actually not a good idea, it still didn’t rise to the level of being a problem. At worse, it was no more than a minor hiccup that could be easily dealt with by government officials. In support of this point, the minority report argues that U.S. officials had “confidently predicted” the aid would eventually be release, and so was never a cause for concern. (Minority at 32)

This claim is without support. Although Ambassador Volker did testify, as the report notes, that “looking back” he thought the hold was “not significant” and that he was “confident we were going to get it fixed internally,” what the minority report does not include is   why   Volker had been so confident it would be fixed. (Volker at 80) As Volker explained, “In this case, here you had an instance where everyone that I spoke with in the policy side of the administration, [ ] Pentagon, military, civilian, State Department, National Security Council, they all thought this is really important to provide this assistance. And so, in that circumstance, for there to be a hold placed struck me as unusual. …   And I just didn’t believe that this hold would ever be sustained because the policy community in the administration was determined to see it go forward .” (Volker at 79) (emphasis added) Similar testimony was given by Ambassador Hale, who stated that he “had confidence that the argument in favor of this assistance was so strong that, in the end, it would prevail and we would be able to resume the assistance” (Hale at 186), and also by FSO Croft, who “believed that [the hold would be released] because of both bipartisan support in Congress and the questionable sort of legality of OMB putting on an informal hold.” (Croft at 85)

In other words, to the extent some witnesses felt confident that this issue would ultimately be resolved, it was only because of their belief that the hold on the security assistance was so irrational, legally dubious, and bereft of any agency or Congressional support that it seemed impossible that President Trump’s decision would not, eventually, be reversed.

2.   “The President’s initial hesitation [ ] to provide U.S. taxpayer-funded security assistance to Ukraine without thoughtful review is entirely prudent.”   (Minority at ii)

The hold on the security assistance to Ukraine could have been neither “thoughtful” nor “prudent,” as the minority report alleges, because it was devoid of any policy purpose whatsoever. As the witnesses unanimously testified, in announcing the hold, President Trump made no attempt to explain what policy purpose it was intended to serve:

  • “The [OMB] official said that the order had come from the President and had been conveyed to OMB by Mr. Mulvaney without further explanation. … NSC counterparts affirmed that there had been no change in our Ukraine policy, but could not determine the cause of the hold on how to lift it.” (Holmes at 21)
  • “OMB did not really explain why they were taking the position, other than they had been directed to do so,” and “all that representative of OMB said was the President has instructed, through Mr. Mulvaney, that [ ] the military aid be suspended.” (Hale at 82, 105)
  • “OMB never [ ] provide[d] a detailed explanation for the reason behind the hold.” (Williams at 92)
  • “There was great confusion among the rest of us because we didn’t understand why that had happened.” (Kent at 304)
  • “I was adamantly [ ] opposed to any suspension of aid, as Ukrainians needed those funds to fight against Russian aggression. I tried diligently to ask why the aid was suspended, but I never received a clear answer; still haven’t to this day.” (Sondland public testimony)
  • “And I couldn’t tell [the Ukrainians why there was a hold]. I didn’t know and I didn’t tell them, because [ ] there’d been no guidance that I could give them.” (Taylor at 138)
  • “Nobody ever gave a reason why…. There should have been [an explanation], but there wasn’t.” (Volker at 122)
  • “Q: Was there any reason provided by the OMB reps on anyone else at the meeting for the hold? A: No.” (Morrison at 162)
  • The agencies involved “were just wanting to find out [why the freeze had occurred]. And they were in touch with OMB, and they weren’t getting much information apart from the fact there was a freeze.” (Hill at 226)
  • “The funds were held without explanation.” (Cooper at 45)
  • “[B]asically we were trying to get to the bottom of why this hold was in place, why OMB was applying this hold.” (Vindman at 181)
  • “It wasn’t clear where [the decision] was coming from as we pushed this into the PCC process, which is the best way to come to a decision, and if somebody is blocking this, they need to sort of show their hand.” (Reeker at 167)

At the time the hold was announced, the only known person to have knowledge as to why the hold was being implement was, once again, President Trump himself. Not a single other government official was able to offer an explanation as to why he had done this.

For weeks after the hold was announced, officials in the affected agencies sought an explanation for the hold, because without knowing   why   President Trump had done this, no one could figure out what needed to be done to change his mind. Efforts to persuade President Trump to reverse course were all failures. At one point, after Ambassador Bolton tried and failed to change President Trump’s mind during a one-on-one meeting to discuss the issue, the only explanation offered was that President Trump “was not yet ready” to release the assistance. (Morrison at 267-268.)

Eventually, in the face of sustained questioning by both Cabinet Secretaries and members of Congress, the Trump administration would come to offer two explanations for why the hold had been placed: (1) that President Trump was concerned about corruption in Ukraine, and (2) that President Trump was concerned about Europe not contributing enough to Ukraine. Neither of these after-the-fact justifications for Trump’s actions find support in the record.

“President Trump was ‘not prepared’ to lift the pause on security assistance to Ukraine, citing Ukrainian corruption”   (Minority at 48)

The first explanation for why President Trump had ordered the hold came during a Deputies Committee meeting convened in late July or early August in order to figure out a way to have the hold released. (Morrison at 165) During this meeting, OMB informed the other agencies “that the President was concerned about corruption in Ukraine, and he wanted to make sure that Ukraine was doing enough to manage that corruption.” (Morrison at 165)

Neither President Trump nor the OMB have ever attempted to explain what sort of anticorruption reform measures President Trump was seeking, or what changes would be necessary to convince President Trump that Ukraine was “doing enough.” And at no point has President Trump or the OMB or anyone else offered an explanation for why the anticorruption reform measures that are   already part of the obligation process   were not sufficient to satisfy President Trump’s concerns.

In May, two months before the hold was announced, the federal government had already certified Ukraine’s compliance with the anticorruption benchmarks established and monitored by an interagency process. That process was complete. Both the Department of Defense and the Department of State had signed off on a certification that “Ukraine had met all the necessary anticorruption requirements as well as other benchmarks [ ] under U.S. law in order to obtain” the security assistance. (Cooper at 32)In the end, the security assistance was released without any attempts to monitor whether Ukraine was meeting additional benchmarks or meeting any newly imposed anticorruption requirements. The certifications had already all been completed, and the Department of Defense “did not conduct any sort of review [ ] about whether Ukraine was making any sort of progress with regard to its anticorruption efforts in July or August or beginning of September.” (Cooper at 92-93)

Finally, the idea that President Trump has some overriding concern with corruption in foreign states in unsupported by anything from his nearly three years in office. The minority report’s attempt to cast Trump’s motivations as the result of a “deep-seated and genuine concern about corruption in Ukraine” (Minority at 79) is contradicted by his failure to ever before demonstrate a concern with “corruption” before scheduling White House interviews or abiding by laws enacted by Congress requiring the provision of security assistance to foreign states. The word “corruption” never even appeared in either of President Trump’s calls with President Zelensky, despite the fact his advisors encouraged him to raise the issue in his communications with the Ukrainian president, and handing him talking points reminding him to raise the issue.

“President Trump was ‘not prepared’ to lift the pause on security assistance to Ukraine, citing … frustration that Europe did not share more of the burden.”   (Minority at 48)

In late August, the Trump administration began to offer a second explanation for why a hold had been placed on the security assistance: that President Trump “wanted Europe to do more.” (Sondland at 105) This explanation seems to have been first offered by President Trump during a phone call on August 31st with Senator Johnson, who had called Trump to ask for him to release the hold. Additionally, in early September, OMB sent out “an email that attributed the hold to the President’s concern about other countries not contributing more to Ukraine.” (Sandy at 42)

As FSO Holmes testified, when the State Department heard that this might be President Trump’s concern, the staff immediately began trying to address it.


“After the hold was placed on the security assistance, many people I think were scrambling to try to understand why. I believe it was Senator Johnson who had said that the President was concerned about burden sharing, perhaps others as well, and so in trying to interpret why this might have happened, we were looking into the facts of what the Europeans have provided and what we have provided. It’s very illuminating, what we learned.” (Holmes public testimony)

As Holmes explained:


“The United States has provided combined civilian and military assistance to Ukraine since 2014 of about $3 billion, plus [ ] three $1 billion loan guarantees. [T]hose get paid back largely. So just over $3 billion. The Europeans, at the level of the European Union plus the member states combined since 2014, my understanding, have provided a combined $12 billion to Ukraine.” (Holmes public testimony)

Despite President Trump’s professed concerns with “burden sharing,” the data showed that Europe already provided substantially more monetary support to Ukraine than the United States did. [2]   And, ultimately, the hold was released without any increase to the assistance provided by Europe to Ukraine.

The minority report does not identify any policy results achieved by President Trump’s decision to hold the security assistance to Ukraine, nor does it attempt to explain how the hold could have had a positive effect on either anticorruption reform or European assistance to Ukraine. There is also no record of President Trump raising the concerns with European states in the interim period, or informing them that the U.S. assistance to Ukraine would be suspended to encourage them to spend more.

3.   “President Trump was reluctant to meet with President Zelensky for a different reason—Ukraine’s long history of pervasive corruption and uncertainty about whether President Zelensky would break from this history and live up to his anti-corruption campaign platform.”   (Minority at 14)

In seeking to explain President Trump’s refusal to agree to a White House meeting with Zelensky, the minority report claims that the “U.S. foreign policy officials were split on President Zelensky” and that “the U.S. foreign policy apparatus was divided on the question of whether President Trump should meet with President Zelensky,” because “the State Department was unsure how he would govern as president.” (Minority at 19)

This is false. No such “split” existed, and the unanimous view of all government officials involved was that President Zelensky   was   serious about anticorruption policy and deserved the United States’s support. As Ambassador Hale testified, “The general impression was that [President Zelensky] was doing the things that we wanted to see done.” (Hale at 85) And, as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Cooper testified, “the new government was, pretty early on, embraced in terms of its anticorruption and reform agenda. You know, we had really been struggling at times to bring the previous government along, so the fact that the new government was, you know, proceeding in such a positive fashion, albeit in early days, I just don’t recall anyone raising that as an issue.” (Cooper at 99)

President Trump’s advisors were also unanimous in their belief that Trump should agree to the White House meeting. According to Ambassador Sondland, “we all believed [a White House meeting for President Zelenskyy] was crucial to strengthening U.S.-Ukrainian ties and furthering long-held U. S. foreign policy goals in the region.” (Sondland at 26) [3]   As Ambassador Reeker testified, “To say that I was dismayed, frustrated that the White House meeting had not yet taken place is a fair [ ] statement. … We didn’t know exactly where or why, so we were pursuing this PCC process to try to force a decision and a movement forward on that, and that that was, indeed, through that period in July going into August was of concern to I think all of us working on Ukraine trying to figure out why.” (Reeker at 89)

The President appeared indifferent to the U.S. embassy’s work on actual anticorruption efforts in their effort to convince Mr. Trump to schedule a White House meeting with Zelensky. “It became apparent that the energy sector reforms, commercial deals, and anti-corruption efforts on which we were making progress   were not making a dent   in terms of persuading the White House to schedule a meeting between the presidents,” Holmes testified (at 6) (emphasis added).

President Trump never offered a policy justification for his refusal to meet with President Zelensky, because it had no possible policy justification. But President Trump did have a reason for refusing to meet with President Zelensky, and the Ukrainians were informed of it. As Ambassador Sondland described in his public testimony,


“President Trump wanted a public statement from President Zelensky committing to investigations of Burisma and the 2016 election. Mr. Giuliani expressed those requests directly to the Ukrainians and Mr. Giuliani also expressed those requests directly to us. We all understood that these prerequisites for the White House call and the [ ] White House meeting reflected President Trump’s desires and requirements.” (Sondland public testimony)

4.   “The security assistance was ultimately disbursed to Ukraine in September 2019 without any Ukrainian action to investigate President Trump’s political rival.”   (Minority at 64)

The minority report argues that there is no evidence of a quid pro quo because “U.S. security assistance ultimately flowed to Ukraine without the Ukrainian government taking any action to investigate President Trump’s political rival.” (Minority at 65)

This is false. President Trump did not release the security assistance until   after   an agreement had been reached for President Zelensky to “go to a microphone and say he is opening investigations of Biden and 2016.” (Taylor at 244) This deal had been reached on September 8th, with a phone call between President Zelensky and Ambassador Sondland that had “concluded with President Zelensky agreeing to make a public statement in an interview with CNN.” (Taylor at 39) President Zelensky had then scheduled an interview with CNN to take place on September 13th, in which he planned to announce the investigations. [4]

It was only then, on September 11th, following a meeting with Vice President Pence, Senator Portman, and Chief of Staff Mulvaney, that President Trump finally reversed course and agreed to the release the security assistance to Ukraine. (Morrison at 243) At the time, President Trump had no way of knowing that President Zelensky would ultimately not carry through with what he had agreed to do. But the fact that President Trump ultimately carried out his end of the deal – while President Zelensky did not – does not change the fact that President Trump only released the aid after Ambassador Sondland obtained the agreement from Ukraine. In fact, as FSO Holmes testified, even after the security assistance was released, President Zelensky still seemed intent on going through with the CNN interview:


“Also on September 13, following a meeting with President Zelenskyy in his private office in which I took notes, Ambassador Taylor and I ran into Mr. Yermak on the way out. When Ambassador Taylor again stressed the importance of staying out of U.S. politics and said he hoped no interview was planned, Mr. Yermak shrugged in resignation and did not answer, as if to indicate they had no choice. In short, everyone thought there was going to be an interview, and that the Ukrainians believed they had to do it.” (Holmes public testimony)

It ultimately did not happen, for reasons that have yet to be established. But President Zelensky’s intent to carry out the interview, followed by President Trump’s release of the aid, is confirmed by the record before the HPSCI.

And throughout the ongoing discussions between Ukraine and the United States about the announcement of the investigations, the question of which side would perform first, and which second, had been a recurring point in negotiations. In fact, both Ukrainian and American officials had previously expressed concern over the possibility that President Trump would not carry out his side of the agreement once Ukraine had given him what he wanted. As Andriy Yermak expressed in a group text to Ambassador Volker sent on August 10th:


“I think it’s possible to make this declaration and mention all these things. [ ] But it will be logic to do after we receive a confirmation of date. … Once we have a date, will call for a press briefing, announcing upcoming visit and… [the] Burisma and election meddling in investigations.”

Ukraine’s position was clear: first the White House meeting is scheduled, and   then   we announce the investigations. Not the other way around.

Due to reluctance by both Ukrainians and American officials to wade into these political waters, this version of the quid pro quo deal was ultimately never finalized. Weeks later, though, the Ukrainians were informed of an escalation in the terms of the deal. Now, it was not just the White House meeting contingent on the announcement of the investigation, but also the security assistance. (Taylor at 143)

Finally, on September 8th, following phone calls with both President Trump and President Zelensky, Ambassador Sondland informed Ambassador Taylor that he had gotten President Zelensky’s agreement to announce the investigations during an interview with CNN. (Taylor at 208) This time, though, it was Ambassador Taylor who expressed concern over whether President Trump or Ukraine would be required to perform their side of the bargain first. In a September 8th text to Sondland after their phone call, Taylor wrote: “The nightmare is they give the interview and don’t get the security assistance.” But Taylor’s nightmare scenario did not come to pass. On September 11th, three days after Zelensky agreed to announce the investigations but two days before the interview was scheduled to take place, President Trump released the security assistance. What President Trump hadn’t known, though, was that once the security assistance was released, Ambassador Taylor would intervene and convince President Zelensky to not uphold his end of the bargain. [5]

5.   “The Ukrainian government denied any awareness of a linkage between U.S. security assistance and investigations” (Minority at 52)

The minority report suggests that no quid pro quo could have existed, because the Ukrainian side was never informed that such a quid pro quo existed. However, the undisputed testimony of Morrison, Sondland, and Taylor established that the Ukrainians were in fact aware of a link between the security assistance and the investigations, because Ambassador Sondland directly informed them of this on September 1, when Ambassador Sondland told a senior Ukrainian official “that the security assistance money would not come until President Zelensky committed to pursue the Burisma investigation.” (Sondland at 35; Taylor at 14; Morrison at 146) On September 8, Sondland told Taylor “that he had talked to President Zelenskyy and Mr. Yermak and had told them that, although this was not a quid pro quo, if President Zelenskyy did not ‘clear things up’ in public, we would be at a ‘stalemate.’ I understood a ‘stalemate’ to mean that Ukraine would not receive the much-needed military assistance,” Taylor said. (Taylor at 16) In his public hearing, Sondland corroborated Taylor’s testimony on this point:


GOLDMAN: And then you also told Ambassador Taylor in that same conversation that if President Zelensky – rather you told President Zelensky and Andrei Yermak that although this was not a quid pro quo as the president had very clearly told you, it was, however, required for President Zelensky to clear things up in public or there would be a stalemate. You don’t have any reason to dispute Ambassador Taylor’s recollection of that conversation you had with President Zelensky, do you?

SONDLAND: No.

GOLDMAN: And that you understood the stalemate referenced the aid, is that correct?

SONDLAND: At that point, yes.

So how can the minority report deny that the Ukrainians were aware of a link, given the conclusive evidence that they were in fact told of it? By noting that Ukrainian Foreign Minister Vadym Prystaiko “told the media that Ambassador Sondland had not linked the security assistance to Ukrainian action on investigations.” (Minority at 54) The minority report is correct: Prystaiko is quoted in a Reuters article from November 14th as saying that that Ambassador Sondland “did not tell [him]” about a link between assistance the investigations.

Except no one has ever claimed that Sondland told Minister Prystaiko, who became the foreign minister on August 29, that the security assistance was linked to the investigations. Sondland testified (and Morrison and Taylor corroborated) that he had told this to an entirely different Ukrainian official, senior advisor Andriy Yermak.

6.   “Although subsequent reporting has connoted a connection between “Burisma” and the Bidens, the Democrats’ witnesses testified that they did not have that understanding while working with the Ukrainian government about a potential statement.”   (Minority at 57)

This claim from the minority report is, technically, not a lie. Or at least, it’s not the minority report’s lie. Because Ambassadors Sondland and Volker did testify under oath that, at the time they had been negotiating with the Ukrainians, they had been unaware that the request to investigate “Burisma” was effectively a request to investigate Trump’s political rival Joe Biden and his son, Hunter. It was only later, after the release of the July 25th call transcript, that Volker and Sondland finally made the connection. As Volker testified at his public hearing, “I did not know that President Trump or others had raised Vice President Biden with Ukrainians or had conflated the investigation of possible Ukrainian corruption with investigation of the former Vice President… I now understand that others saw the idea of investigating possible corruption involving the Ukrainian company, Burisma, as equivalent to investigating former [ ] Vice President Biden.” And as Sondland testified, “I can’t recall the exact date the light bulb went on. It could have been as late as once the transcript was out but it was always Burisma to me and I didn’t know about the connection between Burisma and Biden.”

It’s worth noting that Volker and Sondland both acknowledge now that “Burisma”   does   equal “Biden,” and an investigation into “Burisma” was inappropriate and politically motivated. Volker and Sondland just denied being aware of that at the time.

But Volker and Sondland were lying. No, it’s not the sort of lie for which they will face perjury charges, because they won’t. But it’s also not a lie that we’re required to indulge. Besides, even if Ambassador Volker really was too ignorant and too incompetent to understand the significance of his actions, the Ukrainians weren’t. They knew full well what Volker was asking them to do, even if Volker didn’t. As Volker acknowledged in his public testimony, in August, after he had cautioned the Zelensky administration against opening investigations into the former Ukrainian president, a senior Ukrainian official Yermak had responded, “What, you mean like asking us to investigate Clinton and Biden?” According to Volker, it was only later that he realized Yermak was referencing the Burisma and 2016 investigations that Volker had asked Ukraine to announce: “I didn’t quite understand [at the time] what he was referring to because, to my knowledge, we weren’t asking to investigate Clinton or Biden. And so I was kind of puzzled by the remark and that’s why I didn’t respond.” (Volker public testimony)

So there is no dispute that the Ukrainians recognized that “Burisma” equaled “Biden.” Whether or not Sondland or Volker knew it at the time, the Ukrainians knew they were being asked to interfere in the upcoming U.S. election.

But Sondland and Volker knew it too, of course. Volker’s text messages make this plain. On July 21st, Ambassador Taylor texted to the group: “Gordon [Sondland], one thing Kurt [Volker] and I talked about yesterday was Sasha Danyliuk’s point that President Zelenskyy is sensitive about Ukraine being taken seriously,   not merely as an instrument in Washington domestic, reelection politics .”

As Sondland’s testimony confirmed, he knew that what Taylor was referring to was the “agreed-upon interview and agreed-upon press statements” about the investigations. (Sondland at 120) In other words, Sondland knew that investigations into “Burisma” and “2016” were connected to President Trump’s 2020 reelection campaign.

A review of public reporting on Burisma and Giuliani beginning in March of 2019 shows that Volker’s and Sondland’s knowledge of the political significance of “Burisma” isn’t just obvious, it’s undeniable. FSO Christopher Anderson, who was in effect Volker’s deputy during his time in Kyiv, testified that it was his job to track the public reporting on Lutsenko and Giuliani, and to keep Volker and other embassy officials updated. (Anderson at 43) Anderson said that the first time he discussed Giuliani with Volker had been in March 2019, after The Hill published a series of articles from John Solomon about then-Prosecutor General Lutsenko’s efforts to open investigations in Ukraine. (Anderson at 43, 58) Anderson testified that “there were several stories in The Hill newspaper, I believe. So we had been tracking those. We did not know to what extent that was, I guess, freelancing, perhaps, on whether that reflected – [Giuliani] was a private citizen, so we did not know to what extent that was significant. But we were certainly aware of those news reports and tweets. … I also know [Giuliani] was saying that he was representing him in a private capacity.” (Anderson at 41-42) In his deposition, Anderson stated that, “When The Hill [ ] reports came out, [ ] Ambassador Volker sent me a question, what is the background to this? And that’s when I provided some context about Lutsenko and what he was doing. So that was the first time I remember discussing anything related to [Giuliani] with him.” (Anderson at 58)

Embassy staff in Kyiv were also aware of   reporting by the New York Times on May 9th   about Giuliani’s plans to meet with President Zelensky in Kyiv, in order to convince him to open investigations President Trump’s political rivals. (Anderson at 110) The Times article leaves no doubt what Giuliani’s true interest in “Burisma” was:


[Giuliani] wants to meet with [Ukraine’s] president-elect to urge him to pursue inquiries that allies of the White House contend could yield new information about two matters of intense interest to Mr. Trump.
One is the origin of the special counsel’s investigation into Russia’s interference in the 2016 election. The other is the involvement of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s son in a gas company owned by a Ukrainian oligarch.

That Giuliani was seeking to use an investigation into Burisma as a vehicle for creating political trouble for Biden was well known among State Department officials involved in Ukraine policy. (Reeker at 141, 145, 147). “[W]e all were aware from press reports, from everything else, his own television statements” of what Giuliani was trying to do in Ukraine, Ambassador Reeker testified. (Reeker at 146) “[I]t was quite clear from Giuliani’s public comments that his interest in Burisma was the Bidens.” (Reeker at 183) As Ambassador Reeker described in his testimony, during the Spring of 2019 it was impossible to escape the steady news reports about Giuliani and the investigations into Burisma and 2016: “it was just one of those things it was always out there, because, of course, Giuliani was talking about it and the press was writing about it all the time.” (Reeker at 224)

Ambassador Volker wasn’t able to escape the deluge of Giuliani news either. At a conference   at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace on May 29th , Volker was asked about Giuliani’s recent activities in Ukraine:


“There is an effort to bring the 2020 [ ] U.S. presidential campaign into Ukraine, with people like the President’s lawyer Mr. Giuliani seeking evidence and other things [such as] Ukraine’s involvement in 2016 situation in the United States and Russian interference, as well as questions about former Vice President Joe Biden. … Is it possible to kind of [ ] keep the politics out? Or is that hard?”

In his response, Ambassador Volker did not directly address either Giuliani or his efforts to launch an investigation into Joe Biden – in fact, in every public interview Volker gave throughout the spring and summer of 2019, Volker has refrained from answering any question about Giuliani or Biden – but Volker did acknowledge that there was an ongoing campaign to use Ukraine as a vehicle for “U.S. domestic politics”:


“No, it’s actually not [getting hard to keep the presidential campaign and Ukraine policy separate]… The actual relationship with Ukraine and with the new presidential team, that’s one thing. What is happening is it’s getting into the media and into the atmospherics around Ukraine in our domestic politics. And so, the way I would say it, I think President Trump, in the wake of the Mueller investigation having been concluded, and there not being any accusation of collusion, is now going on the offensive, and saying well the only collusion was people trying to feed Hillary Clinton information to damage me, President Trump. And so, he is now pushing that. That is all a domestic political narrative.”

But although Volker consistently avoided answering questions about Giuliani and Biden, Volker’s testimony that he did not become unaware of President Trump’s interest in a Biden investigation until September 25th, when the call transcript was released, is simply not credible. Reporting in the Ukrainian and U.S. media – which Volker kept up to date on though his staff at the U.S. embassy – shows how pervasive knowledge of Giuliani’s activities was, and that his efforts to secure an investigation into Burisma were squarely aimed at providing Trump with an electoral advantage in 2020:

This includes articles such as   an April 5th report of an interview   with the Director of the Ukrainian Institute for Policy Analysis and Management, Ruslan Bortnik, on his perception of Ambassador Volker’s role in Ukraine:


“Volker today turned out to be an ambassador without a message, that is, a person who nominally retains the function of special envoy for Ukraine, but really cannot meet anyone and does not conduct any negotiations because of his inability to organize a productive dialogue with the Russian Federation. However,   he continues to try to play some important role in Ukrainian affairs, especially with regard to the Manafort case, allegedly Ukrainian interference in the US elections, Burisma Holding and the ongoing election campaign in the USA .”

Or   this May 3rd article   from a Ukrainian news site, predicting Trump’s efforts to pressure Zelensky into investigating Biden:


Now the question is whether Trump will be helped in the attack on Biden by new president Vladimir Zelensky.

“It is unclear whether the new prosecutor general of Ukraine, whom Zelensky will appoint, will investigate the Burisma case. Since Biden and Poroshenko were against Kolomoisky, who is credited with having ties to Zelensky, it’s obviously worth waiting for the next round of scandal against Biden and Kiev’s assistance in this matter. “New details may also come up about Hillary’s headquarters relations with Poroshenko,” says Nguyen.

According to experts, in the next year and a half Ukraine will not leave the screens of American TV.

Or this   May 10th article in the Daily Beast , confirming that Trump was directing Giuliani’s efforts in Ukraine:


As The New York Times reported, Giuliani has been actively seeking information on the involvement of Hunter Biden, the former vice president’s son, in an energy company owned by a Ukrainian oligarch. In the Obama era, the former vice president had pushed for the ouster of a Ukrainian prosecutor whose office controlled the investigations of the company, on which Hunter Biden sat on the board. …

“I’m doing this as part of my role as the president’s lawyer to follow up on [leads],” Giuliani told The Daily Beast. “This is what a defense lawyer does…I’m going after it like a hound dog.” Trump’s attorney also noted that he’s been briefing the president on his progress, and that they’ve had multiple conversations on the topic, though he wouldn’t go into further detail.

Giuliani did say that, based on their private chats, he believed he had the full blessing of President Trump to pursue this private investigation—one now explicitly designed to yield potentially damaging information on one of the president’s a top 2020 challengers. [6]

Or this   May 12th article in the Washington Post :


A person close to Zelensky, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter, said the president-elect’s team viewed Trump’s interest in the investigations as a domestic U.S. matter and was determined not to let it distract from his agenda.

“This is definitely not our war,” the person close to Zelensky said. “We have to stay away from this as much as possible.”

The person said Zelensky would rule out using political pressure to lean on Ukrainian law enforcement to achieve any White House aims.

One investigation that has attracted Trump and Giuliani’s interest involves a Ukrainian gas company on whose board Hunter Biden served while his father was vice president.

Or   an article from July 27th , quoting Oleg Voloshin, a former spokesman for Ukrainian foreign minister, showing that the Ukrainian media and political establishment had full awareness of what Trump was seeking in Ukraine:


“For the first time, the name of Gordon Sondland suddenly surfaced in the context of US-Ukrainian relations in early June, when, as part of a visit to Brussels, Vladimir Zelensky suddenly found himself in the [EU] Ambassador’s residence at a dinner at the same table with Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner. In the Trump administration as a whole, important issues are often handled by the President’s trusted proxies, regardless of the formal positions they occupy. Volker is not one of Trump’s confidants, and therefore, obviously, sensitive issues in the dialogue with Kiev have now been assigned to [Sondland] instead. I admit that Sondland appeared in Kiev for a reason:   this is a hint from the American administration that they want to see a follow-up on the so-called Biden case. ” …
Voloshin says that the Biden case has gained serious weight in relations between official Kiev and Washington. “Even in our official message about Zelensky’s conversation with Trump, the American president’s wish was conveyed that the new government in Ukraine will be able to quickly improve the country’s image and complete the investigation of corruption cases that interfere with relations between Ukraine and the United States.   This refers clearly to the story of Biden. Zelensky was made clear that until Washington sees progress on this matter, Zelensky’s visit will not take place ,” Voloshin says.

Or   an article from August 5th , again confirming Ukrainian media’s knowledge that Trump was pressuring Zelensky to open a Biden investigation:


However, Kolomoisky and Zelensky have a subject for bargaining with the White House. As Ukrainian publications wrote, along with Volker on July 26, it was no coincidence that the US ambassador to the EU, Sondland, who is considered Trump’s confidant.   According to Ukrainian media, he was supposed to discuss a sensitive topic with Zelensky about the “Biden case.” … And given that it is probably Joe Biden who will be Trump’s main rival in the 2020 elections, it can be assumed that the current owner of the White House will need reinforced concrete evidence of Biden’s misconduct.   And he can get them only from the official authorities of Ukraine. This enables Kolomoisky and Zelensky to bargain with Trump’s team.

Or   an August 23rd editorial   from the Kyiv Post, titled “Get Lost, Giuliani”, denouncing Kurt Volker for assisting Giuliani’s efforts to coerce Ukraine into providing assistance to Trump’s 2020 campaign:


Let’s make it clear what’s happening here:   Giuliani is trying to predicate a long-awaited meeting between Zelensky and U. S. President Donald Trump on Ukraine pursuing these politically motivated investigations . And with the next U.S. presidential election rapidly approaching in 2020, he is trying to make Ukraine choose between the Republicans and the Democrats.

More broadly, Giuliani is using his fluid status — a private individual speaking for a head of state — to say things the Trump Administration cannot.

Giuliani should butt out of Ukraine’s affairs, where he poses a danger to the country’s relations with the U.S. And Ukraine should no longer give an audience to this political charlatan.   And, if what Giuliani tells the Times is true, shame on the U. S. State Department and Special Representative Kurt Volker for assisting him to get meetings in Kyiv.

Or finally,   this prescient August 30th article   from Ukrainian media, predicting that President Trump’s interest in “the Biden case” could lead to his impeachment:


Bondarenko says that we can only guess if Bolton spoke to See about the Biden case, of course, there will be no official confirmation, otherwise it would have threatened Trump with big problems – opponents could to spin up the case worse than the failed Russiagate.
If there was at least some kind of document, then in America the question of Trump’s impeachment could arise , because it would be considered as a dishonest game,” says Bondarenko.

There are, quite literally, dozens more articles in both American and Ukrainian media that were published between March and September of 2019 which detail the political nature of Giuliani’s pursuit of the “Burisma” and “2016” investigations. It is difficult to believe that anyone with a passing interest in Ukrainian foreign affairs would not have been aware of what Giuliani was doing in Kyiv – and it is impossible to believe that the U.S.’s top diplomats in Ukraine didn’t know about it.

As Fiona Hill testified:


REP. MALONEY: I thought it was obvious to you that – that Burisma meant Bidens.

HILL: Yes, it was.

REP. MALONEY: And you actually treated that as a pretty easy thing to understand. In fact,   Mr. Morrison figured it out with a single Google search . But is it credible to you that Mr. Sondland was completely in the dark about this all summer? I mean he had an argument about it. Didn’t he say what are you so worried about?

HILL: It is –   it is not credible to me that he was oblivious .”


Given the obviousness that the only importance of “Burisma” was in its equivalency to “the Bidens” it is not a defense, as the minority report alleges, that in Volker’s text messages, the word “Biden” is never used in discussing plans to demand that Ukraine announce an investigation—it is more incriminating, not less, that Volker, Sondland, and Giuliani found it necessary to speak in the code of “Burisma.” They knew they had something to hide.

In sum, the minority report relies on the lie told by Volker and Sondland in testimony, and ignores the fact that Volker and Sondland were so obviously lying. The minority report itself may be truthful when it describes the statements Sondland and Volker made, but just as it is impossible to believe that Sondland and Volker actually didn’t know what “Burisma” meant, it is impossible to believe that the House Republicans didn’t recognize Sondland’s and Volker’s denials for the perjury it was.

7. “Indisputable evidence shows that senior Ukrainian government officials sought to influence the 2016 election in favor of Secretary Clinton and against then-candidate Trump.”   (Minority at 86)

This claim from the minority report is a lie. But it’s worse than just a lie – as Dr. Hill explained in her testimony, it’s a false narrative promoted by Russia with the aim of harming Ukraine, undermining American democracy, and obscuring Russia’s responsibility for the 2016 attack on our elections.

House Republicans ignored Dr. Hill’s warning. Their report embraces Russian propaganda and argues that it would be appropriate for President Trump to investigate whether both Russia and Ukraine independently interfered in the 2016 election: “Russian interference in U.S. elections does not preclude Ukrainian officials from also attempting to influence the election.” (Minority at 86) The minority report goes on to argue that Ukraine “interfered” in the 2016 election because a handful of Ukrainian government officials and former officials expressed concern over the Republican candidate’s statements of support for Russia’s invasion and annexation of Ukrainian territory.

But this is not the investigation President Trump has been pursuing in Ukraine. The investigation that President Trump wanted was an investigation into whether Ukraine   and not Russia   was responsible for interference in the 2016 election. As President Trump told President Zelensky in their July 25th call:

  • “I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike. … The server, they say Ukraine has it.”
  • “[T]hat whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they. say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.”

This isn’t an investigation into “whether senior Ukrainian government officials worked to oppose President Trump’s candidacy and support former Secretary Clinton during the 2016 election,” as the House Republicans pretend. (Minority at 85) It’s an investigation into whether Ukraine hacked the DNC server, and then framed Russia for it in order to induce the Mueller investigation.

It’s an investigation aimed at exonerating Russia.

And the president’s personal attorney had been pursuing this same end. In April 2019, following the arrest of Julian Assange, Rudy Giuliani told   the Washington Examiner , “Maybe it will shed light on the plot to create an investigation of President Trump based on a false charge of conspiracy with the Russians to affect the 2016 elections. Keep your eye on Ukraine.”

Although the minority report argues that it is “undisputed” that Ukrainians interfered in the 2016 election due to “senior Ukrainian officials ma[king] negative and critical comments about candidate Trump,” this talking point comes from House Republicans only, not from President Trump. (Minority at 78) Neither Giuliani nor President Trump have ever expressed an interest in an investigation into whether Ukraine “interfered” in the 2016 election because of what some Ukrainians officials wrote in op-eds or on social media. The idea that this is what Trump wanted to investigate is a fiction that House Republicans invented to give themselves something they were willing to defend. The only investigation into the 2016 election that President Trump has expressed interest in – both in interviews in Fox News, and in his July 25th call with Zelensky – is an investigation aimed at proving Ukraine was behind the DNC hack.

President Trump’s desire for an investigation that would exonerate Russia is undeniable – it’s right there in the transcript of that “perfect” July 25th call – and it’s also indefensible. And so the minority report makes no attempt to try; instead the report concocts an alternative account that does not match the record.

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

[1]   See also   Kent at 305 (“[N]one of us could understand why [there was a hold]. Since there was unanimity that this was in our national interest, it just surprised all of us… I believe that it is a factually correct statement to say that there’s broad support among both parties in Congress, both Houses in Congress, and among the State Department, the Defense Department, Joint Chiefs, and other elements of the U.S. Government for the security assistance programs.” ); Morrison at 264 (“[T]hey were all supportive of the continued disbursement of the aid. It was the unanimous position of the entire interagency.”); Vindman at 184 (There “was unanimous consensus that the security assistance should be provided to Ukraine” from the “State Department, Defense, the Intelligence Communities, [and] Treasury.”); Cooper at 53 (“[A]ll of the senior leaders of the U.S. national security departments and agencies were all unified in their [ ] view that this assistance was essential.”); Taylor at 28 (“There followed a series of NSC-led interagency meetings starting at the staff level and quickly reaching the level of Cabinet Secretaries. At every meeting, the unanimous conclusion was that the security assistance should be reassumed, the hold lifted.”)

[2]   Other attempts to satisfy Trump’s after-the-fact explanations for the hold had a similar results. As Ambassador Taylor described, “[a]t one point the Defense Department was asked to perform an analysis of the effectiveness of the assistance.   Within a day , the Defense Department came back with the determination that the assistance was effective and should be resumed.” (Taylor at 28) (emphasis added) Nevertheless, the hold was not lifted.

[3]   See also   Volker at 38 (an Oval Office meeting “was important to show support for the new Ukrainian President. He was taking on an effort to reform Ukraine, fight corruption, a big sea change in everything that had happened in Ukraine before, and demonstrating strong U. S. support for him would have been very important.”); Anderson at 50 (“The goal was a White House visit, because that also led that has the largest significance. … [I]n sort of the scale of meetings, the best would be an Oval Office visit for president Zelensky. … Because it is the best show of support and it has the greatest pomp and circumstance, and so that has the most impact, both in Ukraine but also in Moscow.”).

[4]   See also   Homes public testimony (“[O]n September 13th, an embassy colleague received a phone call from another colleague who worked for Ambassador Sondland. My colleague texted me regarding that call that, quote, ‘Sondland and Zelensky interview’ – ‘Sondland said the Zelensky interview is supposed to be today or Monday, and they plan to announce that a certain investigation that was on hold will progress.’”).

[5]   After the public announcement on September 12th that the security assistance had been released, Ambassador Taylor reached out to President Zelensky to inform him of the news, and to tell him that he should “not get[] involved in other countries’ elections.” (Taylor at 40-41) At that time, Ukrainian National Security Advisor Alexander Danylyuk told Taylor that Zelensky would not go ahead with the CNN announcement. (Taylor at 41) Ambassador Taylor testified that his goal was to stop the Ukrainians from carrying out their agreement with President Trump: “I was trying to be sure that the things from the other channel that had been put in place, like the CNN interview, didn’t happen.” (Taylor at 234)

[6]   In a   May 10th interview with Politico , President Trump was asked about Giuliani’s efforts to open investigations in Ukraine, and Trump confirmed he had communicated with Giuliani about the issue. Trump also confirmed his interest in an investigation into Joe Biden.


Tags

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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  seeder  JohnRussell    5 years ago

I'm so glad we have people in the media willing to read through all of this stuff and explain it in plain terms to the rest of us.  It is vital to understanding the bamboozling and constant lying of the Trump administration and its adherents. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  seeder  JohnRussell    5 years ago

Some Trump nut in the audience jumped up at the start of the impeachment hearing today and began screaming "we voted for Donald Trump" 

Sir, we dont need to hear about your personal mistakes. 

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
3  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom    5 years ago

This is going to be a long read, but I have no doubt it will be a helpful one.

In other news, Doug Collins needs the toupee slapped right off of his head for being a  rude, annoying, and somewhat creepy man.  He just made several verifiable untrue statements in his opening argument.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @3    5 years ago
"the idea that President Trump has some overriding concern with corruption in foreign states in unsupported by anything from his nearly three years in office. The minority report’s attempt to cast Trump’s motivations as the result of a “deep-seated and genuine concern about corruption in Ukraine” (Minority at 79) is contradicted by his failure to ever before demonstrate a concern with “corruption” before scheduling White House interviews or abiding by laws enacted by Congress requiring the provision of security assistance to foreign states. The word “corruption” never even appeared in either of President Trump’s calls with President Zelensky, despite the fact his advisors encouraged him to raise the issue in his communications with the Ukrainian president, and handing him talking points reminding him to raise the issue."

Trump supporters take us for idiots Sister. All we have is the truth. 

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Participates
3.1.2  katrix  replied to    5 years ago
Yes we do.  And that's the truth.

I'd say the idiots are those who have no interest in truth, and who buy into Trump's lies. He loves his willfully ignorant voters.

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Participates
3.1.4  katrix  replied to    5 years ago
Yep....that simply infuriates Trump haters, and we celebrate their anguish and pain

[Deleted]

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.5  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  katrix @3.1.4    5 years ago

Well said Katrix. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.6  Tessylo  replied to    5 years ago

We know that's the only reason you're here.  

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Participates
3.1.7  katrix  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.5    5 years ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
lib50
Professor Silent
3.1.8  lib50  replied to  katrix @3.1.7    5 years ago

Certain truths get under their skin and they try to get it off immediately.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
3.1.9  Greg Jones  replied to  lib50 @3.1.8    5 years ago

It seems Wally gets under people's skin frequently.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.10  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  katrix @3.1.4    5 years ago

Why is 3.1.4 a sweeping generalization and 3.1.3, the comment that provoked 3.1.4 is not? 

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Participates
3.1.11  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.10    5 years ago

The same reason when I told someone to bite me after they called me an idiot.  Guess whose comment got deleted?  The mod tells a lot.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Guide
3.1.12  Raven Wing  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @3.1.11    5 years ago

Was it deleted for "No Value"?

I mean, calling someone an idiot surely has more value. Right?

NOT!!

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Guide
3.1.13  Raven Wing  replied to  katrix @3.1.4    5 years ago

Looks like they might be members of the supposed Trump Cult. I will laugh my fanny off when Trump throws all his supporters, subordinates and our few allies we have left thanks to Trump, under the bus as he gets crazier and crazier even before he is impeached, which he, and the rest of the world, knows is not impossible.

Trump's 'Brand' will not be worth a wooden nickle even if he is not impeached as more truth comes out. And the Trump name will be stained with his actions for a long time to come, and his family will suffer as well. I don't think Ivanka's Brands and Trumps Hotels and Golf Clubs will be that popular either. 

JMOO 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
3.1.14  XXJefferson51  replied to    5 years ago

That’s for darn sure.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
3.1.15  XXJefferson51  replied to    5 years ago

Indeed we do.  We will work to  re elect this President as soon as he is acquitted by the Senate.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
3.1.16  XXJefferson51  replied to  katrix @3.1.4    5 years ago

Yes, all the jobs and pay raises and low unemployment must make all these now prosperous Americans oh so miserable...

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
3.1.17  XXJefferson51  replied to  Raven Wing @3.1.13    5 years ago

That’s quite the fantasy you’ve got going there.  I can’t wait to get involved in his re-election campaign the moment he’s acquitted by the Senate.  It should be as rewarding as the 2004 Bush campaign was.  

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Participates
3.2  katrix  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @3    5 years ago
This is going to be a long read, but I have no doubt it will be a helpful one.

As we can see from above, Trump's worshippers simply won't bother reading it. They're not interested in facts; just in blindly denying that their orange idol has done anything wrong. Reading things that factually show he DID do something wrong is against their agenda.

Sad how many unpatriotic Americas are out there ... Trump has them crawling out of the woodwork, screeching their lies and conspiracy theories, and putting Trump and the GOP over our country. People like that shouldn't even be allowed to vote.

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Participates
3.2.2  katrix  replied to    5 years ago
Such unpatriotic thinking is why Democrats  will continue to lose

What's unpatriotic is the people who put Trump ahead of their country.

 
 
 
lib50
Professor Silent
3.2.3  lib50  replied to    5 years ago

You need to come to terms with the fact your party is allowing Putin to call the shots.  No matter how far Trumpers go to deny the truth,   Trump has harmed US security interests, among others, and the beneficiary is always Russia and sometimes another adversary.   Over US interests.  Lying for Russia.  Hurting our allies and our own national security.  Believing the same Saudis in the latest terror attack by one of theirs, just as Trump accepted their lies about Kashoggi's murder.  Unpatriotic indeed.  Look in the fricken mirror.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
3.2.4  Greg Jones  replied to  katrix @3.2.2    5 years ago
What's unpatriotic is the people who put Trump ahead of their country.

What's unpatriotic is the Dems being sore losers and trying to overturn a legitimate election.

The business of the country goes undone will the Democrats double down on this sham impeachment.

The voters are quietly watching this clown show and will punish the lefties severely.

The larger public is sick and tired and bored with these protracted proceedings and have turned their

attention to important and relevant things.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.2.5  Tessylo  replied to  Greg Jones @3.2.4    5 years ago

'The business of the country goes undone will the Democrats double down on this sham impeachment.'

The democrats are doing their job - ethics and oversight.

What business of this country is getting done while this 'president' is at the helm?

 
 
 
lib50
Professor Silent
3.2.6  lib50  replied to  Tessylo @3.2.5    5 years ago

The moron sits on the crapper and tweets for hours watching Fox every single day.  He's not doing jack for the country, its all about him.

 
 
 
freepress
Freshman Silent
4  freepress    5 years ago

It is all deflection and lies from the GOP, as always. Russia was the culprit, they know Trump is in cahoots with Russia so they deflect to a tiny country like Ukraine instead of dealing with the corruption that Trump is involved with. Why tell the truth when the GOP base eats up every lie they tell?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5  Nerm_L    5 years ago

Too late for a factoid dump now.  The die has been cast and a vote on articles of impeachment is required.  Cherry picking the factoids may keep Democrats in line for a partisan vote but won't do anything to change public opinion.

Politically Democrats have chosen Ukraine over the United States as an expedient means of attacking the President.  Democrats are more alarmed over any harm to Ukraine than harm to the United States.  The Ukrainian government has successfully led Democrats by the nose to become entangled in another simmering regional conflict with Russia.  Democrats have chosen to pursue the bureaucratic policy objective of fighting another war with Russia using Ukraine as a proxy; that fulfills Ukraine's political objectives while threatening the security of the United States.

No one has explained why there are so many advocates for Ukrainian political objectives within the bureaucracy of the US government.  The sheer number of witnesses advocating for Ukraine is direct evidence of political corruption within our own government.  Democrats have chosen to characterize that bureaucratic political corruption as 'right' and 'good'.  But that advocacy for Ukrainian political objectives actually weakens the security of the United States because those political objectives require escalating tensions between the United States and Russia.  Democrats are advocating war with Russia while, at the same time, condemning warfare.  It's a classic two-faced lie.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
5.1  Greg Jones  replied to  Nerm_L @5    5 years ago
.  Democrats are advocating war with Russia while, at the same time, condemning warfare.  It's a classic two-faced lie.

And it is so obvious and apparent to the casual observer. Trump is doing the best he can to deescalate tensions with Russia,

while the Democrats are hell bent on starting another cold war with them.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5.1.1  Nerm_L  replied to  Greg Jones @5.1    5 years ago
And it is so obvious and apparent to the casual observer. Trump is doing the best he can to deescalate tensions with Russia, while the Democrats are hell bent on starting another cold war with them.

That's a legacy of the Obama administration.  The United States has been overtly meddling in the internal affairs of former Soviet block countries and in the Middle East on the southern border of the former Soviet Union.  While the Bush administration did engage in warfare in the Middle East, which destabilized the region, it was the Obama administration that actively attempted to pull the region into the Western sphere of influence.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine possessed a potent strategic nuclear arsenal consisting of ICBMs, bombers, several thousand nuclear weapons, and a significant stockpile of enriched uranium.  Ukraine had become an independent nuclear super power in the European theater; more powerful weapon-wise than any other European country.  Ukraine had become a big dog in Europe and was no longer restrained by the Soviet Union.

A treaty was negotiated between Ukraine, Europe, United States, and Russia to eliminate the Ukrainian nuclear arsenal in exchange for security commitments to protect Ukraine's sovereignty.  However, the point being overlooked is that Ukraine committed itself to a position of neutrality requiring distancing itself from both European and Russian spheres of influence.  When Ukraine adopted a pro-western stance in 2014 that was belligerent toward Russia, Ukraine abrogated that treaty.  The Obama administration played a significant role in attempting to pull Ukraine into the European sphere of influence.  The Obama administration also began militarizing Ukraine as a claimed security measure to defend against Russian influence.

Ukraine abrogated the treaty protecting it's own sovereignty.  What is happening in Ukraine really is Ukraine's fault; they did this to themselves.  But the Obama administration encouraged Ukraine to act against its own interests as a means of indirectly confronting Russia.  

How would the United States respond if Russia or China began militarizing Mexico to threaten the security of the United States?  That has been the objective of US foreign policy in Ukraine; militarize Ukraine to threaten the security of Russia.  

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
5.1.2  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1.1    5 years ago
A treaty was negotiated between Ukraine, Europe, United States, and Russia to eliminate the Ukrainian nuclear arsenal in exchange for security commitments to protect Ukraine's sovereignty.  

Which Russia violated by 'annexing' Crimea. 

However, the point being overlooked is that Ukraine committed itself to a position of neutrality requiring distancing itself from both European and Russian spheres of influence.  

False. Ukraine's initial neutrality position was NOT bound by treaty. 

When Ukraine adopted a pro-western stance in 2014 that was belligerent toward Russia, Ukraine abrogated that treaty.  

False. 

The FACT is, Ukraine tried to join NATO in 2008 and Russia voted against them. 

The 'belligerence' was initiated by RUSSIA when they 'annexed' Crimea. Are you positing that Ukraine should have had a fucking party to welcome Russia? 

The Obama administration played a significant role in attempting to pull Ukraine into the European sphere of influence.  

THE HORROR!

One would think that Trump's alleged attempts to clean up Ukrainian corruption would do the same but hey, IOKIYAR. 

The Obama administration also began militarizing Ukraine as a claimed security measure to defend against Russian influence.

Not according Trump and the GOP. They insist that all Obama sent was 'pillows and  blankets'.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  Dulay @5.1.2    5 years ago
The FACT is, Ukraine tried to join NATO in 2008 and Russia voted against them.

Where did you pull THAT from?????

Russia has no vote on NATO membership. Period.

Also, from Wikipedia:

Relations between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1994.[1] Ukraine applied to begin a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President.[4][5] Amid the Euromaidan unrest, Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014.[6] The interim Yatsenyuk Government which came to power initially said, with reference to the country's non-aligned status, that it had no plans to join NATO.[7] However, following the Russian military invasion in Ukraine and parliamentary elections in October 2014, the new government made joining NATO a priority.[8] 
Russia's reaction to the 2008 plan of the then Ukrainian Government to start a MAP was hostile.[citation needed] Nevertheless, the following year, NATO spokesman said that despite Russian opposition to NATO's eastward expansion the alliance's door remained open to those who met the criteria.[9]

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5.1.4  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @5.1.2    5 years ago
Which Russia violated by 'annexing' Crimea. 

Russia has a strategic interest in retaining access to the Black Sea.  Why do you think Ukraine was part of the Soviet block?

Ukraine adopted a policy of belligerence toward Russia (backed by Europe and the United States) that threatened Russia's strategic interests and Russia's national security.  Russia's annexation of Crimea was the only rational option.

The FACT is, Ukraine tried to join NATO in 2008 and Russia voted against them. 

Russia is not a member of NATO and does not have a vote in NATO.  The treaty to disarm Ukraine included obligations toward Russia, too.  One of those obligations was that Ukraine would not become a European military outpost (armed by the United States) threatening Russian security.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  Dulay @5.1.2    5 years ago
The FACT is, Ukraine tried to join NATO in 2008 and Russia voted against them. 

Please provide details of this so-called vote Russia made. Where did it take place, who else voted, and what organization was holding the vote? What was the final tally of all the votes you claim were made?

Do other organizations routinely let non-members vote on who gets to join it?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.6  Texan1211  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1.4    5 years ago

Why on earth would someone post that Russia blocked Ukraine from becoming a NATO member?

FROM NATO:
Highlights
Dialogue and cooperation started after the end of the Cold War, when newly independent Ukraine joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (1991) and the Partnership for Peace programme (1994).
Relations were strengthened with the signing of the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership, which established the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC) to take cooperation forward.
The Declaration of 2009 to Complement the NATO-Ukraine Charter mandated the NUC, through Ukraine’s Annual National Programme, to underpin Ukraine’s efforts to take forward reforms aimed at implementing Ukraine’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations, in line with the decisions of the 2008 NATO Summit in Bucharest.
Cooperation has deepened over time and is mutually beneficial with Ukraine actively contributing to NATO-led operations and missions.
Priority is given to support for comprehensive reform in the security and defence sector, which is vital for Ukraine’s democratic development and for strengthening its ability to defend itself. 
In response to the Russia-Ukraine conflict, NATO has reinforced its support for capability development and capacity-building in Ukraine. The Allies continue to condemn Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea, and its destabilising and aggressive activities in eastern Ukraine and the Black Sea region. NATO has increased its presence in the Black Sea and stepped up maritime cooperation with Ukraine and Georgia.
Since the NATO Summit in Warsaw in July 2016, NATO’s practical support for Ukraine has been subsumed in the Comprehensive Assistance Package (CAP) for Ukraine.
In June 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted legislation reinstating membership in NATO as a strategic foreign and security policy objective.
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has underlined his eagerness to give new impetus to his country’s engagement with NATO.

Russia didn't have a damn thing to do with it.

I rate the statement "The FACT is, Ukraine tried to join NATO in 2008 and Russia voted against them" as FALSE.

Seems like capitalizing FACTS makes one think it IS a fact!

LMMFAO!

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
5.1.7  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1.4    5 years ago
Russia has a strategic interest in retaining access to the Black Sea.  

Get a map Nerm. Russia has over 200 miles of coastline on the Black Sea. They've got mulitple ports on that 200 miles of coastline. 

Why do you think Ukraine was part of the Soviet block?

NOT because of it's exclusive access to the Black Sea. 

Ukraine adopted a policy of belligerence toward Russia (backed by Europe and the United States) that threatened Russia's strategic interests and Russia's national security.  

By DOING what? 

Russia's annexation of Crimea was the only rational option.

BS. There is NO rational reason TO annex Crimea. 

Russia is not a member of NATO and does not have a vote in NATO.

My bad, they just opposed it and threated war. 

The treaty to disarm Ukraine included obligations toward Russia, too.  One of those obligations was that Ukraine would not become a European military outpost (armed by the United States) threatening Russian security.  

Tell you what Nerm, cite the section of the Treaty that includes that obligation to Russia. I'll wait but I won't be holding my breath. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5.1.8  Nerm_L  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.6    5 years ago
Russia didn't have a damn thing to do with it.

I rate the statement "The FACT is, Ukraine tried to join NATO in 2008 and Russia voted against them" as FALSE.

Seems like capitalizing FACTS makes one think it IS a fact!

Now, now, now; don't be too harsh.  Confusing the United Nations and NATO is a relatively simple error.

The salient point is defense of the Kissinger model for achieving globalization using partisan cherry picked factoids isn't that stark.  There isn't six degrees of separation between Democrats and Republicans in their support of globalization.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5.1.9  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @5.1.7    5 years ago
Get a map Nerm. Russia has over 200 miles of coastline on the Black Sea. They've got mulitple ports on that 200 miles of coastline.

I've seen a map.  Where are NATO's naval stations on the Black Sea? 

NOT because of it's exclusive access to the Black Sea.   

Incorrect.  The Soviet Union claimed exclusive access to the Black Sea.  The Russian Federation did not give up that claim of exclusivity.  Russia's claim on the Black Sea is an important component for the policy of deterrence.

Tell you what Nerm, cite the section of the Treaty that includes that obligation to Russia. I'll wait but I won't be holding my breath. 

Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons   (link opens a PDF)

BTW, providing military aid to Ukraine skirts paragraphs 2 and 3 of the agreement.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1.9    5 years ago

Isn't it amusing to see Reagan being proven right time and time again--some 30 years later?

Some things just don't change.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
5.1.11  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1.9    5 years ago
Where are NATO's naval stations on the Black Sea? 

How is that relevant to Russia's access to the Black Sea Nerm? Hint: It isn't. 

Incorrect. The Soviet Union claimed exclusive access to the Black Sea.

I'm pretty fucking sure that Turkey has access to the Black Sea and has had since at least the 1500s. 

  The Russian Federation did not give up that claim of exclusivity.  

They can claim whatever the fuck they want as long as they don't mind being scoffed at. Besides Ukraine and Turkey; Romania, Georgia and Bulgaria also have rights to the Black Sea. Russia can go pound sand. 

Russia's claim on the Black Sea is an important component for the policy of deterrence.

Well hell, then Turkey can claim the same and just close down the Black Sea to EVERYONE. 

Seriously, Comrade, that deterrence BS is ridiculous. 

BTW, providing military aid to Ukraine skirts paragraphs 2 and 3 of the agreement.  

You're fucking kidding right Nerm? 

Here's paragraph 2: 

2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. 

First of all, Russia's military attack on Crimea utterly shatters that paragraph of the treaty yet you utterly ignore that fact. WHY? 

Secondly, that paragraph does NOT prohibit providing aid of any kind to Ukraine. Pretending that it does is merely a failed attempt at gaslighting. 

Here is paragraph 3:

3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind. 

Thank you for pointing out yet another violation of law by Trump. 

Oh and BTFW Nerm, there is NOTHING in that Treaty that says Ukraine will remain a neutral nation or that makes any obligation to Russia by Ukraine. 

Major fail. 

 
 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5.1.12  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @5.1.11    5 years ago
Secondly, that paragraph does NOT prohibit providing aid of any kind to Ukraine. Pretending that it does is merely a failed attempt at gaslighting. 

I specifically stated that military aid skirts paragraphs 2 and 3.  Trying to claim I stated otherwise is gaslighting.

Thank you for pointing out yet another violation of law by Trump. 

Biden was there first with his own quid pro quo.  Just because Europe and the United States collude to declare treaty violations legal doesn't make it appropriate or acceptable.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
5.1.13  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1.12    5 years ago
I specifically stated that military aid skirts paragraphs 2 and 3. 

I specifically refuted your claim with facts. 

Trying to claim I stated otherwise is gaslighting.

Since I didn't do that, no worries. 

Biden was there first with his own quid pro quo.  

You're 'whataboutism' fails to address the FACT that it appears Trump violated that clause of the Treaty. In fact, your 'whataboutism' seems to indicate that you now recognize that he did. 

Just because Europe and the United States collude to declare treaty violations legal doesn't make it appropriate or acceptable.

WTF are you babbling about Nerm? The only one I see declaring treaty violations legal is YOU carrying water for Russia's attack on Crimea. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5.1.14  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @5.1.13    5 years ago
I specifically refuted your claim with facts. 

No, you attempted to gaslight my claim by extending it to all types of aid, which I did not do.  Gaslighting is not a refutation.

You're 'whataboutism' fails to address the FACT that it appears Trump violated that clause of the Treaty. In fact, your 'whataboutism' seems to indicate that you now recognize that he did. 

Biden's quid pro quo shows that the Obama administration threw the memorandum (treaty) out the window by using money to coerce the Ukrainian government.  The FACT that Biden points to a consensus between Europe and the United States really does show collusion among western countries to make violation of the memorandum legal.  But that legality only applies to the western block of influence.  Russia isn't bound by European or US politics; an abrogation of the memorandum nullifies what was agreed to.

WTF are you babbling about Nerm? The only one I see declaring treaty violations legal is YOU carrying water for Russia's attack on Crimea. 

Which only suggests that Europe and the US can't play politics with treaty agreements.  When Europe and the US play fast and loose with agreements, Russia will fight back.  While a Red Scare might play well in European and US politics, Russia doesn't give a crap about the Western political ideology of globalization.  Poking Russia with a sharp stick is an unwise thing to do.

Russia is an Asian country, not a European country.  Assuming that Russia will respond in the same manner as a European country is shear stupidity.  The Czars attempted to westernize Russia during the 18th and 19th centuries which did not end well.  Russia is not going to be westernized; that has been tried and failed.  Attempting to understand Russian motivations according to a European point of view is born of ignorance.  

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
5.1.15  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1.14    5 years ago
No, you attempted to gaslight my claim by extending it to all types of aid, which I did not do.  Gaslighting is not a refutation.

Bullshit Nerm. 

I stated that paragraph 3 does NOT prohibit providing aid of any kind to Ukraine. Not even you can claim that wouldn't include military aid. In short, providing military aid the Ukraine does NOT skirt the treaty in any way. 

Biden's quid pro quo shows that the Obama administration threw the memorandum (treaty) out the window by using money to coerce the Ukrainian government.

Nope. You're ignoring intent. The Treaty clearly states that the ' economic coercion' may not be:

 designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty

Biden's intent was for the benefit of the Ukraine, not the US. Anyone who has researched this knows that. 

Russia isn't bound by European or US politics; an abrogation of the memorandum nullifies what was agreed to.

Yet they ARE bound by the Treaty which they violated in Feb. 2014 by attacking Crimea. Oh and since you insist that such a violation nullifies the Treaty, anything that Biden did in 2015 is moot since per your standard the Treaty had already been nullified by Russia. 

Which only suggests that Europe and the US can't play politics with treaty agreements.  

Your carrying water for Russia's attack on Crimea suggests nothing of the sort. 

The FACT is, the US didn't start giving Ukraine military aid until AFTER Russia attacked Crimea. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5.1.16  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @5.1.15    5 years ago
Bullshit Nerm.  I stated that paragraph 3 does NOT prohibit providing aid of any kind to Ukraine. Not even you can claim that wouldn't include military aid. In short, providing military aid the Ukraine does NOT skirt the treaty in any way. 

No, that does not include military aid.  And, yes, military aid does skirt the provisions of the memorandum (treaty).  The military aid is intended to establish ties with Ukraine that only benefits Europe, the United States, and NATO.  As the treaty points out, any assistance to Ukraine is to be provided through the United Nations.

Yet they ARE bound by the Treaty which they violated in Feb. 2014 by attacking Crimea. Oh and since you insist that such a violation nullifies the Treaty, anything that Biden did in 2015 is moot since per your standard the Treaty had already been nullified by Russia. 

Yes, I mixed up the timeline by placing Biden's cart ahead of the Russian horse.  But that doesn't alter that the situation began with Ukraine adopting a belligerent stance towards Russia. 

Your carrying water for Russia's attack on Crimea suggests nothing of the sort.  The FACT is, the US didn't start giving Ukraine military aid until AFTER Russia attacked Crimea. 

That's true, the US did not provide military aid before the Russian Federation annexed Crimea.  The official policy of the Obama administration was that Ukraine was not important to the security of the United States.  That changed when Viktor Yanukovych was forced out of power by the popular uprising of the "Euromaidan" rather than by an election.  Yanukovych's 'crime' was to reject an EU association agreement, pursue Russian loans, and adopt a policy of closer ties to the Eurasian Economic Union (where Russian Federation influence is prominent).  Ukraine adopted a belligerent stance against Russia through regime change that was supported by Europe and the United States.

Russia annexed Crimea to protect its interests following Yanukovych being forced out of the country. The United States began providing military support to sustain the pro-western popular uprising.  Ukraine's popular uprising favoring closer ties to the EU has resulted in Ukraine's interests being subordinated to the interests of the EU and the United States.  As Biden's quid pro quo revealed, Ukraine is no longer being allowed self government; the EU and United States now dictates what is acceptable and unacceptable in Ukraine.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
5.1.17  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1.16    5 years ago
No, that does not include military aid.  And, yes, military aid does skirt the provisions of the memorandum (treaty).

I invite members to read the Treaty and make up their own minds because it's obvious that you are incapable of understanding it's clear and simple text.   

The military aid is intended to establish ties with Ukraine that only benefits Europe, the United States, and NATO. 

I'm pretty fucking sure it benefits Ukraine too. So, Comrade, it looks like one of the FEW countries military aid to Ukraine doesn't benefit is Russia. 

As the treaty points out, any assistance to Ukraine is to be provided through the United Nations.

Again, that is FALSE Nerm. 

The Treaty states:

to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine...if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression

That happened Nerm. You get three guesses what happened when Russia's attack on Crimea was taken to the UN Security Council and your first two don't count. Hint: Russia has a veto vote on that Council. 

Note, that part of Treaty doesn't preclude Ukraine from receiving military aid either. All it says is that when Ukraine is attacked, it has to be brought before the UN Security Council, NOT that nobody can help them EXCEPT the UN. 

You're all about Russia's sovereignty but seem to think that Ukraine has none. Ukraine has every right to make whatever Treaties it wants with other countries, INCLUDING joint defense Treaties. 

But that doesn't alter that the situation began with Ukraine adopting a belligerent stance towards Russia. 

When did that happen Nerm? What action did Ukraine take? Please be specific. 

The official policy of the Obama administration was that Ukraine was not important to the security of the United States. 

VP Biden went to Ukraine over a dozen times. The US made BILLIONS in loan guarantees for Ukraine. The fact that Marie Yovanovitch was assigned as Ambassador to Ukraine also proves how important Obama viewed Ukraine to be. 

Oh and here's a little 48 page document that documents the Obama Administration published entitled: UKRAINE COUNTRY DEVELOPMENT COOPERATION STRATEGY

Note that the document put forth a strategy LONG before Euromaidan occurred. 

Major FAIL. 

Russia annexed Crimea to protect its interests following Yanukovych being forced out of the country. 

That's the 3rd excuse you've given for Russia invading Crimea Comrade. jrSmiley_76_smiley_image.gif

The United States began providing military support to sustain the pro-western popular uprising.  Ukraine's popular uprising favoring closer ties to the EU has resulted in Ukraine's interests being subordinated to the interests of the EU and the United States.  

It's ridiculous to claim that a 'popular uprising' subordinated Ukraine to ANYONE. 

As Biden's quid pro quo revealed, Ukraine is no longer being allowed self government; the EU and United States now dictates what is acceptable and unacceptable in Ukraine.

It seems to me that ALL of the Ukrainian officials were expressing how UNACCEPTABLE Trump's demands that Ukraine open politically motivated investigations was.

It also seems to me that Zelensky managed to stand up to Trump's demand for a pretty long time. If it was a 'game of chicken' Trump was forced to blink first. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5.1.18  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @5.1.17    5 years ago
I'm pretty fucking sure it benefits Ukraine too. So, Comrade, it looks like one of the FEW countries military aid to Ukraine doesn't benefit is Russia. 

I suppose 'comrade' would be an appropriate form of address since I supported Bernie Sanders last election.  I did not support the anti-establishment candidate and I would never support the neo-conservative candidate.

You are stating a variation of Obama's 'eat your peas' argument.  That's the major flaw with western foreign policy; the west imposes its idea of benefit upon smaller and weaker countries.  That's the same damn thing that was done to the American Indian.  From the strategy document you linked, the last sentence of the executive summary highlights the problem:

"In the coming years, USAID will build on the foundation of its strong relationship with Ukraine to deliver sustainable development impact in all sectors of Ukrainian society, enabling Ukraine to further integrate with Europe and the West."

The United States uses foreign aid to entice countries into dependency and then uses foreign aid to coerce countries.  United States foreign policy utilizes the same methods as drug pushers. 

Westernizing Ukraine isn't any different than civilizing the American Indian.  It's a wrong headed attitude meant to create a phony, feel good moral justification for imposing western values onto a different culture.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
5.1.19  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1.18    5 years ago
You are stating a variation of Obama's 'eat your peas' argument. That's the major flaw with western foreign policy; the west imposes its idea of benefit upon smaller and weaker countries.  

That's utter bullshit Nerm.

For 2 YEARS before the desolation of the Soviet Union, Ukrainians were protesting and taking action against Soviet rule. The same was happening in many if not all of the Soviet Republics.

NONE of that had a fucking thing to do with 'eating your peas'. 

That's the same damn thing that was done to the American Indian.

Just because a dot exists doesn't mean it's connected Nerm. That is an utterly false equivalency.

I don't believe that at any point the First Nations believed that what the US government was imposing on them was to their benefit. I KNOW for a fact, after a certain point, the First Nations KNEW it wasn't. One result of that was the stand they took at the Battle of the Little Bighorn. 

From the strategy document you linked, the last sentence of the executive summary highlights the problem:
"In the coming years, USAID will build on the foundation of its strong relationship with Ukraine to deliver sustainable development impact in all sectors of Ukrainian society, enabling Ukraine to further integrate with Europe and the West."

WHY do you have an issue with Ukraine being ENABLED to integrate with Europe and the West? Please be specific. 

The United States uses foreign aid to entice countries into dependency and then uses foreign aid to coerce countries.  

More bullshit Nerm. There is historical documentation that US foreign aid has created INDEPENDENT and thriving democracies. Japan and Germany come to mind. 

United States foreign policy utilizes the same methods as drug pushers.

Is your posit that it's nefarious that countries get addicted to freedom, civil rights and democracy? 

Westernizing Ukraine isn't any different than civilizing the American Indian.

To the contrary, there are a too many differences to cite. 

 It's a wrong headed attitude meant to create a phony, feel good moral justification for imposing western values onto a different culture.

How is Ukraine's 'culture' so different from Poland's? What horror has 'westernization' imposed on Ukrainian 'culture' and which of those horrors where forced? 

I'd suggest you review the Eastern Partnership agreement, spearheaded by Poland and Sweden, but judging from your proven inability cogently interpret the documents we've already reviewed, it's moot. 

BTFW, couldn't it be argued that Russia imposed it's 'culture' on Ukraine after splitting them up and conquering them? 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
5.2  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @5    5 years ago
Politically Democrats have chosen Ukraine over the United States as an expedient means of attacking the President. 

What an utterly obtuse statement. 

Democrats are more alarmed over any harm to Ukraine than harm to the United States. 

Trump is the one that is doing harm to the US. The Congress intends to hold him accountable for it. 

The Ukrainian government has successfully led Democrats by the nose to become entangled in another simmering regional conflict with Russia.  Democrats have chosen to pursue the bureaucratic policy objective of fighting another war with Russia using Ukraine as a proxy; that fulfills Ukraine's political objectives while threatening the security of the United States.

I can't count how many times GOP Congressmen have thumped their chests and stated that Trump was the one that gave Ukraine lethal military aid. in Feb. 2018, Trump included 250 million in his 2019 budget and in Oct. 2018 the GOP majority in the House and the Senate voted for that exact amount in the 2019 appropriation bill. Trump's State Dept. added over a 100 million MORE to the military aid. 

Note that NONE of that was initiated or controlled by Democrats. 

No one has explained why there are so many advocates for Ukrainian political objectives within the bureaucracy of the US government.  The sheer number of witnesses advocating for Ukraine is direct evidence of political corruption within our own government.  

More obtuse bullshit. 

Perhaps it would behoove you to recognize that the majority of those that were called, and went against the WH to testify, were specialists in Ukraine and/or the region. They work on OUR behalf to further OUR foreign policy goals. 

Democrats have chosen to characterize that bureaucratic political corruption as 'right' and 'good'. But that advocacy for Ukrainian political objectives actually weakens the security of the United States because those political objectives require escalating tensions between the United States and Russia.  Democrats are advocating war with Russia while, at the same time, condemning warfare.  It's a classic two-faced lie.

The BS just keeps on coming. 

Get real and try some facts.

 
 
 
It Is ME
Masters Guide
5.2.1  It Is ME  replied to  Dulay @5.2    5 years ago
Trump is the one that is doing harm to the US. The Congress intends to hold him accountable for it. 

Too many Jobs available, Home Security being tightened and the Promotion of the "General Welfare" !

That really sucks.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.2.2  bugsy  replied to  It Is ME @5.2.1    5 years ago
That really sucks.

It does when you need to keep your welfare class in line. Democrats are starting to have a problem with that.

 
 
 
lib50
Professor Silent
5.2.3  lib50  replied to  bugsy @5.2.2    5 years ago

The welfare class you refer to under the Gov't of Putin would be the corporate elite that have been given welfare from our tax dollars.  From big corp farms to Trump pals companies, to oil companies to Devos's companies, to the Trump family,   reaping the spoils AS WE TYPE.  So  yea, Putin's spokesholes have a problem with that.

 
 
 
lib50
Professor Silent
5.2.5  lib50  replied to  Release The Kraken @5.2.4    5 years ago

Lol, first sentence, protect and defend Putin.  I know it has to be done if you are going to protect and defend Trump. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
Masters Guide
6  It Is ME    5 years ago

Democrat "Witnesses? unanimously testified that"..... They "Felt" (Hugged each other, Cried together, Cooperated together... and YES....even gave each other a kiss or two, etc...) ! jrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
7  Dismayed Patriot    5 years ago

Watching the Republican attorney playing defense is hilarious. It's so sad watching them desperately try and explain away the damning evidence. Their defense so far equates to "Donald didn't hit that man on the chin, he was trying to wipe off some dirt with his closed fist and accidently fell forward into him...Yeah, that's it!"

The whole imaginary defense of Donald being soooo concerned with the corruption in Ukraine. So why wasn't he concerned with the very well known corruption and assassinations, disappearances and jailing of Russian dissidents, journalists and defectors by the Russian government? Why is he saying he believes Putin over our intelligence agencies but distrusts Russia enemy and country they are currently invading? Why is he more concerned with just two Ukrainian officials who merely voiced their opposition to Donald yet have zero evidence of them actively coordinating any sort of influence campaign in the United States during the 2016 election than he is of the known violator who ALL US Intelligence agencies confirmed DID coordinate an influence campaign to get dishonest Donald elected in 2016? What a hypocritical slime ball. How his supporters don't see this is truly shocking. They must have their heads so far up that dishonest Donald derrière they can't even tell what time of day it is.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
7.1  Tacos!  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @7    5 years ago
So why wasn't he concerned with the very well known corruption and assassinations, disappearances and jailing of Russian dissidents, journalists and defectors by the Russian government?

He probably is, but we aren't giving Russia hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
7.1.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Tacos! @7.1    5 years ago
He probably is, but we aren't giving Russia hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons.

That's good, because Ukraine isn't illegally invading a neighboring country. Russia is, they are the fuck wad in the mix. Why won't Trump recognize this? Why won't Trump call Putin out about his illegal actions instead of just bending over to lick the scum off Putin's wet cock?

But we'll never get that answer. Why? Because Trump supporters don't want to know. They want their ears tickled, they want their objectives fulfilled and they don't give two sloppy seconds as to how they get it. Tell them their religion is best, their skin color is best, their ancestors were best, and it doesn't really matter if they were descended from worthless confederate traitors, they imagine America is theirs for the taking. And if Putin is the one they have to give the reach around after he helped their worthless treasonous piece of shit candidate win, well then by golly, they'll give him that reach around and it will be the best reach around ever. That way, when Trump supporters think of themselves, they can continue to think "Best ever".

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
7.1.2  Dulay  replied to  Tacos! @7.1    5 years ago
He probably is, but we aren't giving Russia hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons.

BUT Trump is the one that asked for those hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons Tacos!. 

Trump and the GOP have gaslighted their minions into believing that the reason that Trump withheld the military aid what that he had a 'long standing issue' with Ukrainian corruption. Yet not one of them can explain then WHY did Trump include 250 million in military aid to Ukraine in his Feb. 2018 budget proposal.

They can't mean that Trump's 'long standing issue' started just over a year before he put a hold on the aid, can they? 

Nor can they explain why Trump didn't tell McConnell or Ryan to cut that military aid to Ukraine out of the budget BEFORE they passed it in Oct. 2018. Trump signed that budget. 

They can't mean that Trump's 'long standing issue' started just days after he signed the bill that included the aid, can they? 

Gee, Trump could have saved the DOD some cash by telling them not to waste their time and the travel costs of checking out Ukraine's actions on corruption reform. Judging from the methodology cited in the Pentagon certification letter, quite a few people spent quite a bit of time and travel expense before they signed off on the Ukraine military aid that Trump asked for. I'm pretty sure that Undersecretary of Defense for Policy John Rood had better things to do than to write up a certification report to the Congress that Trump was merely going to clandestinely void. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
8  Dismayed Patriot    5 years ago

My Goodness, the Republicans on the judiciary committee are a bunch of whiny little babies. Now they want to slow things down by literally saying "Hey, lets slow down here, slow down, slow down...!"

Apparently some brains take till late afternoon to wake up, funny they all seem to be on one side of the aisle. I guess when you can't defend the Presidents corrupt actions with facts, they have to go with delay, obfuscate and manufacture some other narrative about Biden so they can yell "Look! Over there! Quick! Stop worrying about the current President possibly using his office to help himself in the next election, Joe Biden might get away with something from nearly 5 years ago that we have no actual proof of wrongdoing! Hurry or Joe might get away!"...

Then, when the Republican attorney is being asked why the Republican statement claimed Ms. Williams merely claimed the call was unusual but left out that she also called it inappropriate and political in nature and the Republicans roared with "Badgering the witness! Badgering the witness! Point of order! Point of order!" because they know they can't answer that questions without looking like the very partisan shills cherry picking the facts that they claim Democrats are doing. Democrats brought ALL the relevant facts to the table, like chess pieces all set up with a check-mate looming for the President while Republicans have been furiously trying to simply flip over the table because they know they can't win with facts, rules or skill.

It would be funny if it wasn't so monumentally sad and depressing that we have Americans who are actually willing to be confused and bamboozled by Republican shenanigans.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
8.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @8    5 years ago

Stephen Castor, the GOP impeachment counsel who is acting as a witness now , is responding and behaving like a mob lawyer. 

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Guide
8.1.1  Raven Wing  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1    5 years ago

Why not, Trump acts like a Mafia Don. However, if a real Mafia Don was as stupid and batfat crazy as Trump, he would not last a day. And likely not those who followed his orders, like some of the people Trump has thrown under the bus himself.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.1.2  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1    5 years ago

'Stephen Castor, the GOP impeachment counsel who is acting as a witness now , is responding and behaving like a mob lawyer.'

This is silly but did you see what he had his documents in?  A reusable grocery bag.  Odd.  Can't he afford a briefcase?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
10  Tacos!    5 years ago

So much of what we are hearing these days is based on the false premise that Trump somehow favors Russia over Ukraine. The facts contradict that claim.

The hold was not routine – nothing like it had ever happened before. 

Not true. In fact, the Trump administration has a well deserved reputation for - and documented history of - slow-walking foreign aid. Sometimes it's clearly intentional (or they say it is) and other times, it seems to be just inefficiency. Either way, news media and other writers have been criticizing the Trump administration for its slow release of foreign aid, and they have been making these criticisms for over a year and a half at least. Remember that one of the issues Trump campaigned on was spending less money on other countries.

June 2018: NO SHOWER OF GOLD—THE SLOW FLOW OF FOREIGN AID FUNDS IN THE TRUMP ERA

As the annual congressional appropriations process ramps up for the upcoming 2019 fiscal year (FY), an alarming trend has become increasingly evident since the beginning of the Trump administration—the inability of the executive branch to obligate and spend foreign assistance funds appropriated by Congress in a timely, responsible, programmatically sound and efficient way.

. . . 

The causes of this increasing slowdown in obligating foreign aid funds since the beginning of the Trump administration are multiple: proposals for massive cuts to international affairs programs in the president’s budget request and delay in sending the request to Congress; the continuing breakdown of the congressional appropriations process; White House proposals attempting to rescind or “claw-back” prior-year appropriated funds; and time-consuming legislative oversight and internal executive branch processes.

Much of the blame for this funding slowdown falls on the Trump administration, but not all of it, as some of these causal factors predate the administration’s arrival.

August 2019: Despite battle with Congress, Trump administration slow-walking $4 billion in aid, including key funds for Ukraine

After standing down in a battle with Congress over $4 billion in foreign assistance cuts, the White House is still slow-walking funds for those same programs in a move that threatens their full implementation . . .

The decision is part of a larger fight over foreign aid between advocates, including senior Republicans and Democrats in Congress and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo , and fierce critics of it at the White House, led by acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney .

The programs come from 10 areas [so NOT just Ukraine], including global health, assistance to Europe to counter Russia and China, United Nations peacekeeping operations and countering drug trafficking.

The irony here is the assertion from Democrats that Trump somehow wants to please Russia by not helping Ukraine. In fact, even though Trump has always said he'd like to be involved as little as possible, he ended up supporting military assistance that Obama would not allow.

March 2018: U.S. steps up military assistance to Ukraine with plan to sell 210 anti-tank missiles

The Trump administration told Congress on Thursday that it plans to sell Ukraine 210 anti-tank missiles to help it defend its territory from Russia, in a major escalation of U.S. lethal assistance to Ukraine's military. The long-awaited move, which lawmakers of both parties have been urging for years, deepens America's involvement in the military conflict and may further strain relations with Moscow.

April 2019: U.S. Has Done Much to Help Ukraine, But It Can Do More

Last year, Ukraine received its first lethal aid from the United States thanks to the Trump administration’s approval of a sale of Javelin anti-tank missiles — a critical step the Obama administration refused to take despite bipartisan support in Congress. The Trump administration also notified Congress in February that, for the first time since its creation in 2015, funds for the Department of Defense’s Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative will be used to provide lethal aid, including sniper rifles and shoulder-fired grenade launchers.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
11  seeder  JohnRussell    5 years ago

Numerous goofballs on the Republican side of the impeachment committee have complained that the attorneys who are consul for the Democratic side of the committee are Democrats themselves. 

Not making this up. 

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
11.1  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @11    5 years ago
Not making this up. 

That's funny. Everything you seed and post is made up.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
12  Jeremy Retired in NC    5 years ago
 “Although the security assistance was paused in July, it is not unusual for U.S. foreign assistance to become delayed.”

So they got their aid and the Democrats have nothing - AGAIN.

“The President’s initial hesitation [ ] to provide U.S. taxpayer-funded security assistance to Ukraine without thoughtful review is entirely prudent.”

We're giving them millions of dollars.  We should know where that money is going.  I know that's hard for a Democrat to understand the purpose of ACCOUNTABILITY but come on, it's common sense.  Oh wait....

“The security assistance was ultimately disbursed to Ukraine in September 2019 without any Ukrainian action to investigate President Trump’s political rival.”

So much for the quid pro quo accusation.

“Indisputable evidence shows that senior Ukrainian government officials sought to influence the 2016 election in favor of Secretary Clinton and against then-candidate Trump.” 

Even Mueller's report showed that what "collusion" they could find was being done on the part of Clinton and the Democrats.  But since it was a witch hunt on Trump, that got swept under the rug.
 
 

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