Oh Dark Waters...

  
By:  perrie-halpern  •  one month ago  •  122 comments

Oh Dark Waters...
The Case of the Fox Watching the Hen House

The movie “Dark Waters”, based on the 2016 article "The Lawyer Who Became DuPont's Worst Nightmare" by Nathaniel Rich, is the real life story of how the people of Parkersburg, West Virginia and neighboring areas were knowingly poisoned by Dupont by a chemical compound known as perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA), otherwise known as C8, part of a larger cluster of "forever" chemicals called PFAS or PFOAs that never break down in the environment and build up in humans and animals, causing irreparable damage, such as health problems that include birth defects, thyroid disease, weakened immunity, infertility risks and certain cancers, and the corporate lawyer Rob Bilott, who took them on. Today, every person and animal in the world has this chemical in their bodies since it was used in Teflon, carpeting, paint, and plastics. We are still being exposed by Teflon alone, which is being used in items like waterproof clothing, rugs, pizza boxes, furniture, dental floss, hair straighteners, and microwave popcorn bags, as well as in firefighting equipment. 

For decades, Dupont deposited the waste from the manufacturing process in the water and ground of Parkersburg and other towns around the US, but denied that it was dangerous. The reason that they could deny this was because the EPA had not included it on its list of dangerous chemicals, of which there are still over 600 not listed.

If you think Dupont had any remorse about this, think again. It took corporate lawyer turned environmental activist Rob Bilott over 20 years to finally get Dupont to settle the case. Dupont was betting that the roadblocks they had put up would be a deterrent to the truth and, in fact, they were almost right. Not many people would have given up so much of their life to find out the truth, and that is what Dupont was counting on. What they didn’t count on was Bilott’s tenacity and his firm’s commitment to finding out the truth.

In fact, this is the worst case of chemical poisoning, because this chemical is pervasive and to varying degrees has affected all humans and animals. The animals that then went to market, and people ate, further exposed them to this permanent toxin. As of October, DuPont and other chemical companies have been found to be contaminating drinking water in 49 states,1,398 locations across the country, and at least 126 military bases, facing lawsuits in New HampshireNew JerseyNorth Carolina, and New York. It is believed by the scientific community that 99 percent of Americans (including newborns) have varying amounts of C8/PFOA in their blood, and that the crisis is global, affecting wildlife as well.

The EPA is almost as responsible as Dupont was, as they knew of the potential dangers of this chemical, but didn’t put it on their list. The EPA’s official stance is that these chemicals were never regulated. Their reaction has been very slow, until the release of the film “Dark Waters, and even now are responding slowly. It is going to take legislation to start the ball rolling, which has only started this past November.

No one administration can be blamed for the mess at the EPA, as this has been going on for decades. But here is a big hint. Our present EPA is headed by Nancy B. Beck, as a top deputy. For the previous five years, she had been an executive at the American Chemistry Council, the chemical industry’s main trade association. The changes directed by Dr. Beck may result in an “underestimation of the potential risks to human health and the environment” caused by PFOA and other so-called legacy chemicals, (I.E the 600 unregulated chemicals).

Dr. Beck, who has a doctorate in environmental health, comes from a camp — firmly backed by the chemical industry — that says the government too often directs burdensome rules at what she has called “phantom risks.” Other scientists and administrators at the EPA, the agency’s top official overseeing pesticides and toxic chemicals, say the dangers are real and the pushback is often a tactic for deflecting accountability and shoring up industry profits at the expense of public safety.

So there you have it. The EPA has been in the pockets of big business.

There are those who say that the government over-regulates industry, and that kills the economy. To some extent that is true. But when one looks at this case, and the cases against many other industries which are known to endanger the public welfare, regulation by an agency that is supposed to protect us should be their aim. But in fact, it seems to be quite the opposite, and only public outcry shakes things up a bit. Does that seem right?

When is it not OK to have the fox watch the hen house?

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Perrie Halpern R.A.
1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.    one month ago

We should be demanding more from the EPA and our government when it comes to protecting us. Instead, they are all in cahoots with the industries they are supposed to be protecting us from. 

 
 
 
Freefaller
1.1  Freefaller  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    one month ago

This is a perfect example of why private companies cannot be trusted to monitor themselves and there must be a powerful federally mandated government dept to make and monitor rules.  Private companies exist for one reason, to make money, anything else will be sacrificed in pursuit of that.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
1.1.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Freefaller @1.1    one month ago

Freefaller, while I agree that private companies cannot be trusted to monitor themselves, isn't that what the EPA was supposed to do for us? In other words, this goes much deeper than we think.

 
 
 
Freefaller
1.1.2  Freefaller  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.1    one month ago

Sorry Perrie but I don't live in the US so personally can't comment specifically on the EPA.  My comment was more general someone's got to watch private companies in nature.  Although my brother down there tells me that for some reason the EPA rules and enforcement is being watered down for the past few years

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
1.1.3  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Freefaller @1.1.2    one month ago

My mistake. For some reason, I didn't know you were from the "great white north". 

Although my brother down there tells me that for some reason the EPA rules and enforcement is being watered down for the past few years

Your brother is right. 

 
 
 
Freefaller
1.1.4  Freefaller  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.3    one month ago
My mistake. For some reason, I didn't know you were from the "great white north". 

No worries, there was no expectations that anyone would know that.  I probably should have been clearer in my original comment

 
 
 
CB
1.1.5  CB   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.1    one month ago

And this is the problem Freefaller is alluding to. Donald Trump is a bad 'hombre.'  And this is not simply 'snap' partisanship on my part. Thought goes into it.

Trump is a CEO of his family business. He tends to like to make money on top of other people's 'bones.' Trump comes in-and he gets to work dismantling other people's power.

Since 2017, he has been positioned in charge of "all things U.S.A.," and what we have is a president who is ;manhandling' the levers and powers of this massively great government of ours. Everything Trump touches upon he does so in order to bring that thing under his sway. For example, Trump did not like USDA scientists who disagreed with his agricultural policies - so he gives them a "do or die" offer. Stay in D.C. and lose their jobs; or move to Kansas - away from his immediate presence and their "seat" of power (D.C.)

It is the Machiavellian treatment of politics coupled together with "cut-throat" business practices and strategies.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
1.1.6  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  CB @1.1.5    one month ago

I have to say, that I was not that happy with the stripping out protections that Trump did. That being said, this is a decades old issue, and the EPA has been malfunctioning since the 1970's. 

Hopefully, recent testimony given to congress will get things moving in the right direction.

 
 
 
CB
1.1.7  CB   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.6    one month ago

Please believe me when I say that I am not 'singling out' Trump for special criticism. My point goes to the present (because there is nothing we can do but discuss the past).

President Donald Trump is the "trifecta" - Machiavellian politically, corporate 'pig,' and a standards eraser. The big three—

and we have not yet taken his measure of the "beast" within him waiting for 2020 to be unleashed.

Your article points out that greed also hurts people. So,. . . without standards, without beauty, and without safety, is simply money going somewhere to make something bad happen.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
1.1.8  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  CB @1.1.7    one month ago

Cal,

I feel what you are saying. Things have definitely gotten worse under this administration, with the laxing of some very important regulations. 

I am trying not to make this article political, so I will not address 2020. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
1.1.9  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.8    one month ago
Things have definitely gotten worse under this administration, with the laxing of some very important regulations. 

Ummmmmm…. jrSmiley_87_smiley_image.gif

"THIS" ..... didn't occur, or ever occured .....under "This" administration ….... nor has any other Past "Environmental problem Movie put out to date been because of this Administration ! jrSmiley_103_smiley_image.jpg

Think about it Perrie. jrSmiley_87_smiley_image.gif

" Strict Regulations" from the " Past "......hasn't STOPPED anything you're complaining about ! 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
1.1.10  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @1.1.9    one month ago

Look, obviously you are here to just contradict anything said. 

The article and most of the commentary was about the standing EPA practices. Had you actually read that, you would have been able to talk about that. 

As for Trump, he has done a lot of deregulation that effects the environment. 

I had no intention of bringing this up, since it has nothing to do with the content of the article that YOU DIDN'T READ. 

I think we are done here.

 
 
 
It Is ME
1.1.11  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.10    one month ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
It Is ME
1.1.12  It Is ME  replied to  It Is ME @1.1.11    one month ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
It Is ME
1.1.13  It Is ME  replied to  It Is ME @1.1.12    one month ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
It Is ME
1.1.14  It Is ME  replied to  It Is ME @1.1.13    one month ago

"Oh Dark Waters..."

 
 
 
CB
1.1.15  CB   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.8    one month ago

Believe me I don't want to make it political either. But. the future is here "tomorrow."  And that means whatever your concern is today it is about to come up to the fore in 2.0 version (UNBRIDLED). Protect the environment we have left to cover.

In circumstances like this: Past may be prologue. I think it is practical and needful to look ahead even as we look back.

 
 
 
cjcold
1.1.16  cjcold  replied to  Freefaller @1.1.2    one month ago
watered down for the past few years

Under Trump, the EPA has been all but destroyed.

 
 
 
Krishna
1.2  Krishna  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    one month ago
We should be demanding more from the EPA and our government when it comes to protecting us.

Also the FDA.

Also the FAA -- there's been a big scandal about Boeing's defective 737s being allowed to keep flying after the initial crash. Finally the FAA had grounded them-- but there's mounting evidence that both Boeing and the FAA were at fault. 

(But that's a bit off topic so I'll stick to discussion of the EPA here-- if anyone's interested in learning more about that negligence there's an excellent article in a recent edition of "Socialist" rag: The Wall Street Journal). Excerpt:

“Despite its own calculations, the FAA rolled the dice on the safety of the traveling public and let the 737 MAX continue to fly,“ said Rep. Peter DeFazio (D., Ore.), chairman of the House Transportation Committee.

The FAA’s intervention didn’t prevent a   second fatal MAX crash , in Ethiopia in March, that led to the global grounding of the fleet and sparked an international controversy over the agency’s safety oversight.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
1.2.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Krishna @1.2    one month ago

Krish,

I think that the second crash was before the FAA was fully involved in the issue since both happened in other countries. Once the second one happened, it was hard to just take Boeing's word for things. 

 
 
 
Krishna
1.2.2  Krishna  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.2.1    one month ago
I think that the second crash was before the FAA was fully involved in the issue since both happened in other countries

I had read that during initial testing, severa; test pilots communicated to Boeing management that there were some potentially serious problems with the control system, but that Boeing covered it up because they wanted to get the plane ito production as soon as possible-- to increase profits.

 
 
 
Split Personality
2  Split Personality    one month ago

To the military's credit we keep getting health symptom surveys based on time in service or residence at different CONUS bases.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
2.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Split Personality @2    one month ago

Interesting. I didn't read anything about that when I was doing my research. What were their findings and how did they handle it?

 
 
 
Split Personality
2.1.1  Split Personality  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1    one month ago

We can only assume the Navy is tracking the results for all USN & USMC people based on current findings, ie contaminated water wells at Cherry Point NC MCAS and others.

NAS JRB Willow Grove has ground and water contamination from PFOAs and aviation fuels, de-greasers, antifreezes, munitions etc.

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/20160619_Tainted__How_Navy_bases_contaminated_Pa__drinking_water.html

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
2.1.2  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Split Personality @2.1.1    one month ago

Thanks for the info!

 
 
 
devangelical
2.2  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @2    one month ago

as a former contractor I found that older military installations (and schools) were loaded with toxic materials, especially the housing. it might be a good idea to keep an eye on your health, especially if you were present in any housing during any type of remodeling or construction.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
2.2.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  devangelical @2.2    one month ago

Now that is really scary. 

Nice to know how we treat our servicemen and women.

 
 
 
devangelical
2.2.2  devangelical  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.2.1    one month ago

cash strapped institutions looking to stretch a dollar by going with the lowest bidder or an insider with contract in hand that cuts corners on original specs, usually with the full knowledge of the client and free from any future accountability. virtually anything built prior to 1968 is suspect.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
2.2.3  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  devangelical @2.2.2    one month ago
virtually anything built prior to 1968 is suspect.

Now that is really a scary thought, but I have to say, that I think you are right.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
2.2.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  devangelical @2.2.2    one month ago
virtually anything built prior to 1968 is suspect.

That would be about 85% of base and post housing

 
 
 
devangelical
2.2.5  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.2.4    one month ago

for remodeling contractors, any buildings that predate 1978 also have to be tested for lead based paints before work starts. I tested all potential projects before I bid on them because it almost tripled the labor costs and invited the lowest rung of federal inspectors to explore your anus. I never was awarded a bid for a military base, but I consulted on several projects that had gone south after the client (us) had been victimized with any number of scams by a gov't approved contractor that usually had other ongoing federal projects.

 
 
 
Ender
3  Ender    one month ago

Yep, we need more deregulation...

 
 
 
MUVA
3.1  MUVA  replied to  Ender @3    one month ago

I agree.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  MUVA @3.1    one month ago

I think he was being sarcastic. 

 
 
 
MUVA
3.1.2  MUVA  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.1    one month ago

I actually understood and was agreeing with them.I think there should be responsible oversight of water ways the department of environmental quality in most states does a good good since they are the ones that do most of the testing.i work with the VA department of environmental quality the guys that run the field do great work.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.3  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  MUVA @3.1.2    one month ago

Hi MUVA,

I am sorry for the misunderstanding there. My bad. I had no idea that the VA is involved in environmental issues. I am really glad to hear that. Can you tell us a little about it? 

 
 
 
Split Personality
3.1.4  Split Personality  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.3    one month ago

Virginia, not the VA.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.5  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Split Personality @3.1.4    one month ago
Virginia, not the VA.

D'oh! LOL! 

 
 
 
MUVA
3.1.6  MUVA  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.5    one month ago

their reach knows no bounds.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.7  Dulay  replied to  MUVA @3.1.2    one month ago

Yet your departments own water quality report documents that the vast majority of Virginia's waterways are 'impaired' for fish, aquatic life consumption and recreation and that it relies heavily on Federal regulations and funding to document and mitigate the damage. 

 
 
 
MUVA
3.1.8  MUVA  replied to  Dulay @3.1.7    one month ago

I was only commenting on who pulls the water samples not who funds it and that the people that actually do the work do a good job.No reason to argue. 

https://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-nws-deq-dirty-waters-report-20190301-story.html

This what I have seen I have a lot of commercial fishermen oysterman ,crabbers  as customers mostly Lynnhaven river ,Eastern shore.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.9  Dulay  replied to  MUVA @3.1.8    one month ago

This is what I reviewed from DWQ:

https://www.deq.virginia.gov/Programs/Water/WaterQualityInformationTMDLs/WaterQualityAssessments/2018305(b)303(d)IntegratedReport.aspx

I keep an eye on my area's reports because we have so many old industrial pollution sites and we are on well water. Our state EPA is an utter joke and my county went from a water quality of C to an F last year. My connections with Purdue lets me get my well water tested once a year. I have no fucking clue what I'd do it my well came up polluted since I water about 3000 sq. ft. of greenhouse plants every year. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.10  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Dulay @3.1.9    one month ago

So, being on well water myself, I know a big part of that is geology. Maybe you are lucky enough to have some sort of protective barrier that will put your mind to rest. 

We on LI, have 2 layers of clay which then goes through different levels of sand since we are a glacial dump, so if you drill deep enough, you do find safe water. 

Good luck with your water. I would hate to see anything happen to your greenhouse. 

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.11  Krishna  replied to  MUVA @3.1.2    one month ago
the guys that run the field do great work.

How about the "high-ups"? Anyone remember Scott Pruitt? He was forced to resign (if anyone want to know some of  sleazy things he did you can google it), and guess who was picked to be the new head?

President Trump's first EPA Administrator,  Scott Pruitt , resigned effective July 6, 2018, amid a series of scandals.

Deputy Administrator  Andrew Wheeler , a former coal industry lobbyist, started serving as acting administrator on July 9, 2018. [1] Wheeler was confirmed as EPA Administrator on February 28, 2019.  (LINK)

Yep-- now we have a former coal lobbyist watching over the environment!

Fox

Guarding 

Henhouse

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.12  Dulay  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.10    one month ago

When we bought the house, they put in a new well and only went 50' down. Plenty of iron in our water and we go through filters every two months. My neighbor across the street drilled a new well to 100' and hit artesian spring water. Unfortunately, we are another 30' in elevation from his well head to ours. So my well guy told me it would cost me about $3000-5000 to give it a shot. No guarantee. YIKES!

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.13  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Dulay @3.1.12    one month ago

Yeah, that is a whole lot of moola but you do know it's there if you need it. 

We have a lot of minerals in our water, but not unusual for here. Wreaks havoc on the pipes and which then turns everything green, but who says a little copper is bad for ya, LOL.

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.14  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @3.1.11    one month ago

the guys that run the field do great work.

How about the "high-ups"? Anyone remember Scott Pruitt?

I guess not.

So here are a few tidbits re: the type pf person Trump appointed to head the Environmental Protection Agency.  There's lots more in the original article. Here are but a few very brief excerpts:

He was nominated for the EPA position by President Donald Trump.

Pruitt was elected Attorney General of Oklahoma. In that role, he was pro-life, opposed same-sex marriage, the Affordable Care Act, and environmental regulations as a self-described "leading advocate against the EPA's activist agenda."[2] In his campaigns for Oklahoma Attorney General, Pruitt received major corporate and employee campaign contributions from the fossil fuel industry

As Oklahoma's Attorney General, Pruitt sued the Environmental Protection Agency at least 14 times regarding the agency's actions.

Pruitt rejects the scientific consensus that human-caused carbon dioxide emissions are a primary contributor to climate change.[3]

By July 2018, Pruitt was under at least 14 separate federal investigations by the Government Accountability Office, the EPA inspector general, the White House Office of Management and Budget, the U.S. Office of Special Counsel, and two House committees over his spending habits, conflicts of interests, extreme secrecy, and management practices.

According to a 2018 Harvard University analysis, the Trump administration's rollbacks and proposed reversals of environmental rules under Pruitt would under the most conservative estimate likely "cost the lives of over 80 000 US residents per decade and lead to respiratory problems for many more than 1 million people

That was the guy Trump hand picked to head the Environmental Protection Agency!

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.15  Dulay  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.13    one month ago

Ya, my 'white' fencing around the dog yard has a lovely rusty patina. But hey, our dog LOVES to run around in a sprinkler, so if we want our comic relief, that's the price we pay. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.2  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Ender @3    one month ago

Deregulation is part of the problem, but in this case, these chemicals were never regulated nor did the EPA ever have the intention of regulating them, since as noted in the article, they are in the pockets of big industry.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4  JohnRussell    one month ago

Thank you for writing this informative original article for us Perrie. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
4.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  JohnRussell @4    one month ago

Thanks John. I thought that people should know what was going on. 

 
 
 
Kavika
5  Kavika     one month ago

Excellent article and of course always believe the corporations and the government when they say there is no danger.../s

Agent Orange, oh my no problem it won't harm humans. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
5.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Kavika @5    one month ago
Agent Orange, oh my no problem it won't harm humans. 

Says the Vietnam vet who saw what it did.

Don't forget 9/11. The air was safe to breathe...

I could go on.

 
 
 
Krishna
5.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.1    one month ago
Don't forget 9/11. The air was safe to breathe...

Fairly recently government payments to 9/11 first responders were due to expire. And iit looked like those payments to sick first responders would cease or be drastically cut.

Then Jon Stewart testified:

(Warning-- some people may find this video to be very upsetting):

Jon Stewart breaks down in emotional testimony at 9/11 Victims Fund hearing

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
5.1.2  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Krishna @5.1.1    one month ago

I remember seeing that and getting choked up. How things could have gotten that bad, still dumbfounds me. 

 
 
 
MUVA
5.2  MUVA  replied to  Kavika @5    one month ago

Burning old ordnance housed in bunkers in Iraq early part of he war.

 
 
 
Krishna
5.3  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @5    one month ago
Agent Orange, oh my no problem it won't harm humans.

Remember when tobacco was thought to be safe? (A while back there were some major lawsuits-- it turned out that the heads of Big Tobacco companies actually ran experiments to see if it was dangerous. When they got the results-- they deliberately covered them up!) That all came out in the many big lawsuits.

I remember as a kid seeing lots of TV adfs like this (cigarette smoking was so cool!)

 
 
 
Enoch
5.3.1  Enoch  replied to  Krishna @5.3    one month ago

I also recall it.

Wasn't their motto?, "I'd walk a mile for a hump".

 
 
 
Krishna
5.3.2  Krishna  replied to  Enoch @5.3.1    one month ago
"I'd walk a mile for a hump".

But not for a Hefalump!

320

 
 
 
CB
6  CB     one month ago
There are those who say that the government over-regulates industry, and that kills the economy. To some extent that is true. But when one looks at this case, and the cases against many other industries which are known to endanger the public welfare, regulation by an agency that is supposed to protect us should be their aim. But in fact, it seems to be quite the opposite, and only public outcry shakes things up a bit. Does that seem right?

Sigh. In many ways as I conduct my life, I am resigned that politics is good for us and at the same time that politics stands to be a reason one day after all my efforts to do what is good and best for me, that I will succumb to somebody's else BS production.

I see it all the time. It is everywhere. For instance, you have 'shady' characters with doctorates who have no sense whatsoever of honor and decency; only larceny in their hearts and no remorse.

The Dupont family is legendary. Wealth and inventions stacked on top of successes. And yet, behind the "goodly" industry reputation is old, rusty, seeping, seedy, spouting, pollutants that are hidden in dark, damp places out of sight, reeking havoc on us all.

Despite all we do to stay safe, we are still 'uncovered and naked' to those with the abilities to hit us in our safe, secret spaces, simply by "piping in" through and under our well-constructed social and physical barriers.

Or something like that. More later.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  CB @6    one month ago

Hi CB,

Not sure where you got that quote from, but I tend to agree that there is a happy medium between over-regulation and none at all. So no that doesn't seem right. 

With Dupont, they abused our trust. There were other chemical companies who knew about this family of chemicals but didn't use them because they knew that a compound made of a carbon chain was dangerous in simple chemistry. 

And yes, I don't understand how people who have studied the effects of these chemicals would be OK to work for a company that cares so little about the effects on life. Amoral I guess. 

 
 
 
CB
6.1.1  CB   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1    one month ago

Sorry, I have been feeling poorly today. The quote? It is the second paragraph from the end of your article (above).something is really wrong with people who are barely conscientious, or whom can not believe something stinks unless you press their noses down into it!

It could be so much easier if people could share and not try to take too much for themselves and their friends. We have been told to always leave something of the good left over for those who come after and behind us. Sadly, we have folks who only leave "the dregs," poisons, and hulls behind for others to pick up—and, deal with.

 
 
 
Krishna
6.1.2  Krishna  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1    one month ago
And yes, I don't understand how people who have studied the effects of these chemicals would be OK to work for a company that cares so little about the effects on life. Amoral I guess.

Sometimes it simply a case of exceptional greed.

Yes, sometimes amoral.

And some people use denial as a defense mechanism-- they refuse to face unpleasant things.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.3  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  CB @6.1.1    one month ago

I have to agree with your sentiment there CB. I would like if the discussion was move constructive. I do try to be friendly and acknowledge everyone nicely, even if we don't agree. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.4  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Krishna @6.1.2    one month ago

You are right Krish. Hard to argue with that.

 
 
 
devangelical
7  devangelical    one month ago
When is it not OK to have the fox watch the hen house?

yet glorious leader continues to appoint those that could best benefit the companies they are charged with regulating.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
7.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  devangelical @7    one month ago
yet glorious leader continues to appoint those that could best benefit the companies they are charged with regulating.

While I agree with you about that, one has to recognize how long this has been going on and it has been going on for a very long time. All he is doing is adding to the mess without thought of the outcome.

 
 
 
It Is ME
8  It Is ME    one month ago

Reminds me of the movie " Erin Brockovich (2000) ".

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @8    one month ago

Kind of but not really. The level of the damage that Dupont caused goes way beyond what happened in that movie, and the scope of the investigation and lawsuits still continue till today after 20+ years. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.1  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1    one month ago

It wasn't a piece by piece" comparison that I put that up for. Just noting that "Oh Dark Waters" is not a one-off type movie in this matter. It's just "New"....kind of.

We all know that Pollution happens.....and has for decades. We clean up as best we can.

Centralia, PA, Lost Town ..... also comes to mind too !

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.2  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.1    one month ago
We all know that Pollution happens.....and has for decades. We clean up as best we can.

The issue is two-fold. 

1. Why should we clean up the pollution and pay for it, while big industry makes the profits?

2. Not everything can be cleaned up. Teflon damage is already done. It can't be removed from the body. Is that right? Why should we have to suffer?

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.3  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.2    one month ago
1. Why should we clean up the pollution and pay for it, while big industry makes the profits?

Companies produce what "The People" want. The product get's popular, and the "Company" keeps up with "The Peoples" demands, whatever it takes to do that.

What companies are allowed to and not to do, is "Government Regulated". "Government"....IS...."The People" !

If "The People" fail on the "regulation enforcement" side...It's up to "The People" ….and "The Company" (my contribution of the day).... to  Cleanup !

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.4  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.3    one month ago

So are you telling me that the "People" want to be poisoned? That is your argument here?

Because I am pretty damn sure by the outcome of this case, that is not the case.

And I see no reason for the "people" to pay for the clean up of some other business. I find it interesting that you who always advocate for not wanting to pay for other people's "stuff", is now advocating for paying for big business' "stuff". 

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.5  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.4    one month ago
So are you telling me that the "People" want to be poisoned?

Until they don't.... so yea..... sounds right !

Paper or Plastic ?

Save the tree's go plastic. Pretty much Everythings Plastic now. FANTASTIC WASN'T IT ?

Now "Plastic" is poisoning the earth.....right ?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.6  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.5    one month ago
So are you telling me that the "People" want to be poisoned?
Until they don't.... so yea..... sounds right !

To be able to say that they wanted to be poisoned is to say that they knew what that chemical did. They didn't. That is because the industry was allowed to self regulate. So no, your argument doesn't hold up. In order to know if you want something, you also have to know what the side effects are and no one did. This is not a paper or plastic issue, because we can see with our own eyes what that is doing. That is on people. This is not.

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.7  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.6    one month ago
chemical

If "The People" aren't even a little Leary of that word when it pops up, by now....Nothing will help us then.

"This is not a paper or plastic issue"

One in the same. 

Did you think "Roundup weed killer" was the best idea since sliced bread, for your home maintenance requirements ?

Shit loads of that stuff have been bought.... by "The People" !

I don't know about you, But I'm a bit careful with something that has "Killer" in it's name.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.8  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.7    one month ago
chemical
If "The People" aren't even a little Leary of that word when it pops up, by now....Nothing will help us then.

Did you read my article? Seriously. 

Yes, "chemical" should trigger some fear, but one would think that chemicals were being watched by the EPA, and that is what everyone believed. 

"This is not a paper or plastic issue" One in the same. 

Not at all. One is self inflicted and the other is not. One can be cleaned and the other can't.

Did you think "Roundup weed killer" was the best idea since sliced bread, for your home maintenance requirements ? Shit loads of that stuff have been bought.... by "The People" !

You are making my case about self regulation. Monsanto made "Roundup" for our food supply. We all thought it was fine because once again, not only the EPA but the FDA said it was safe, without testing it and using company data. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.9  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.8    one month ago
but one would think that chemicals were being watched by the EPA, and that is what everyone believed.
not only the EPA but the FDA said it was safe, without testing it and using company data. 

Again...this sounds like "The Peoples" government problem. 

"You are making my case about self regulation."

No, I was referring to the "Needs" the many wanted, and received.

I've used Roundup AND  Diazinon (Until Banned) and Malathion (Until Banned) all my life.....on my yard and gardens. I read the directions first though.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.10  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.9    one month ago
I've used Roundup AND  Diazinon (Until Banned) and Malathion (Until Banned) all my life.....on my yard and gardens. I read the directions first though.

You knew you were using a chemical. Only a fool wouldn't read the directions. 

But Teflon is not a chemical in that sense. It would be like saying the iron on your car isn't safe. Furthermore, let's say YOU think that Teflon could be dangerous, you wouldn't know everything it was applied to, nor would you know that the Dupont was contaminating the water and ground with Teflon waste.  And let's say you did think that, there was no way to prove it since the EPA didn't list it as a dangerous chemical. There are 600 of them. Try to find them. 

Heck, the company experimented with their own employees without their knowledge. Did you know that? What is your excuse for that? And no, none of the employees signed their rights away to do that. And their findings were that it was totally toxic. Didn't stop them from making it though.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. If our government services don't stand up for us, who the heck will?

 
 
 
Dulay
8.1.11  Dulay  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.6    one month ago

You'd think that we would have learned something from this but it's all too obvious that we haven't. 

Today, with the boom in fracking, the government gave corporations immunity when it comes to the content of the 'fracking liquid' they use. The Bush EPA/WH gave frackers the right to label 'fracking liquid' as 'intellectual property', which basically allows them to pump whatever the fuck they want into the holes they drill. 

What's to stop them from 'disposing' of known toxic materials into those holes? The answer is NOTHING. 

 
 
 
lady in black
8.1.12  lady in black  replied to  Dulay @8.1.11    one month ago

That's why I'm fortune to live in Erie County in New York State since both have BANNED fracking.

 
 
 
zuksam
8.1.13  zuksam  replied to  Dulay @8.1.11    one month ago
The Bush EPA/WH gave frackers the right to label 'fracking liquid' as 'intellectual property

I've always been suspicious of what they might be adding to that "Fracking Fluid". Given the fact that the only difference between a chemical compound you buy and toxic waste you pay to get rid of is that the waste has no use. Since it can cost thousands of dollars to dispose of a 55 gallon drum of toxic waste it could be quite a profitable side business to pretend this toxic waste is a useful additive to your "Fracking Fluid".

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.14  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Dulay @8.1.11    one month ago
What's to stop them from 'disposing' of known toxic materials into those holes? The answer is NOTHING. 

Supposedly, the EPA, since known would put it on their list of chemicals not allowed. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.15  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  lady in black @8.1.12    one month ago

I am glad they banned fracking upstate, and I know a lot of down staters are glad, too. Long Island uses their own water, and many homes, like my own use their own well water. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.16  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  zuksam @8.1.13    one month ago

That all sounds very reasonable. If there is a way to game the system, we have all seen it happen. The bottom line is what they are about. 

 
 
 
Krishna
8.1.17  Krishna  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.8    one month ago
Yes, "chemical" should trigger some fear, but one would think that chemicals were being watched by the EPA, and that is what everyone believed. 

I have discussed the issue of toxins in our environment, and toxins in our food supply with many people. Not all, but many of them. have the same response:

If it was dangerous the government wouldn't allow it.

Of course they are mistaken....

 
 
 
Krishna
8.1.18  Krishna  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.9    one month ago
I've used Roundup AND  Diazinon (Until Banned) and Malathion (Until Banned) all my life.....on my yard and gardens. I read the directions first though.

What makes you think following the directions makes you safe? 

Food for thought: who writes the directions?

 
 
 
Krishna
8.1.19  Krishna  replied to  Dulay @8.1.11    one month ago
Today, with the boom in fracking, the government gave corporations immunity when it comes to the content of the 'fracking liquid' they use.

BTW there is also starting to be some indication that fracking increases the frequency of earthquakes in the area. (IMO this has not been definitely proven to be true, but it seems the evidence is growing)

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.20  It Is ME  replied to  Krishna @8.1.18    one month ago
What makes you think following the directions makes you safe? 

The directions say to spray and then wait (Set time) before handling. I also washed any food before I ate it.

Did you know your supposed to always wash certain foods before eating it ?

Just because you buy it at the grocery store, doesn't mean it's actually "Ready to eat" ! 

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.21  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.10    one month ago
You are arguing for the sake of arguing. If our government services don't stand up for us, who the heck will?

No, Your arguing as if my point is different than yours on government. It's "The Peoples" government problem. "The People" keep electing the same ol' folks into office, and expecting a different result. "The People" allow this problem to continue !

So.....as I noted before....YES....."The People" are poisoning themselves.

And NO....it's not a Trump caused problem. This is a decades and decades old problem.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.22  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.21    one month ago

The "People", elect who they can elect given the rules of this country. So don't blame the people. Blame the system. 

And I never brought up Trump, specifically. I said in my article that this has been going on through many administrations. It would have been nice if you had read the article that I took the time to write and I said that clearly in the article. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.23  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.22    one month ago
The "People", elect who they can elect given....

…. what they are "Told" by the one that wants "The People" to elect them into office. It has nothing to do with "Election Rules".

"And I never brought up Trump, specifically"

Comment 1.1.8  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.....tell's me otherwise !

What does it mean when someone says...."THIS administration" ?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.24  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.23    one month ago
…. what they are "Told" by the one that wants "The People" to elect them into office. It has nothing to do with "Election Rules".

Yeah it does, Two choices is really no choice. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. 

Comment 1.1.8  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.....tell's me otherwise ! What does it mean when someone says...."THISadministration" ?

So you didn't read the article, and then cherry pick a comment I made. Strange how you missed  3 other comments that I didn't want to make this political or that I didn't blame this administration alone. 

I am done with your gig. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.25  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.24    one month ago
So you didn't read the article, and then cherry pick a comment I made.

I sure did read the article...and put up another Movie it reminded me of.

My "Pick" had nothing to do with your article, it was a "Pick" from a comment of your's that noted "This Administration made it worse !

"Two choices is really no choice. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

What I have been noting all along !

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing ? 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.1.26  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.25    one month ago

Stay on topic or get off the article.

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.27  It Is ME  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.26    one month ago
Stay on topic or get off the article.

[Removed]

 
 
 
Krishna
8.1.28  Krishna  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.2    one month ago

Why should we have to suffer?

Why?

Well, so corrupt politicians, lobbyists, and wealthy heads of corporations can live the life to which the are accustomed! 

 
 
 
Krishna
8.1.29  Krishna  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1.26    one month ago
Stay on topic or get off the article.

I wonder..perhaps he's not capable ?

 
 
 
The People's Fish
9  The People's Fish    one month ago

I need to check this out. I use magnum condoms and they contain Dow Corning® QP1-9140 Fluid manufactured by Dupont. I wonder if my mule is in danger?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
9.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  The People's Fish @9    one month ago

Well, if that is true, your mule might fall off. 

But more likely you will end up developing testicular cancer. 

 
 
 
The People's Fish
9.1.1  The People's Fish  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @9.1    one month ago
Well, if that is true, your mule might fall off.  But more likely you will end up developing testicular cancer. 

I should probably reach out to the 742.5 partners I've had since i was 13. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
9.1.2  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  The People's Fish @9.1.1    one month ago

I would say, we should be more concerned about the .5 person. Are they half a person, or just confused?

 
 
 
The People's Fish
9.1.3  The People's Fish  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @9.1.2    one month ago

Technically, 

In college I dated a midget for a few months. She eventually started topless dancing and then went into porn. I always felt those professions exploited women and had to break up.

I should have married her. Her clothes were really cheap and she didn't eat much. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
9.1.4  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  The People's Fish @9.1.3    one month ago

 
 
 
MUVA
9.2  MUVA  replied to  The People's Fish @9    one month ago

Just the magnum?

 
 
 
The People's Fish
9.2.1  The People's Fish  replied to  MUVA @9.2    one month ago

That's the top of the charts for a gringo homeslice!

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.2  Tessylo  replied to  The People's Fish @9.2.1    one month ago

Bragging about your mule again?  I heard Magnum were for the more well endowed.  

 
 
 
The People's Fish
9.2.3  The People's Fish  replied to  Tessylo @9.2.2    one month ago

It won't be long now and they will have an android mule available.

 
 
 
It Is ME
9.2.4  It Is ME  replied to  The People's Fish @9.2.3    one month ago
It won't be long now and they will have an android mule available.

The "Time" is already here. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
10  sandy-2021492    one month ago

I grew up along the Ohio River.  My brother works at this same Dupont plant.  I remember reading about this a bit while I was home from school during college, but the story sort of disappeared.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
10.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  sandy-2021492 @10    one month ago
I remember reading about this a bit while I was home from school during college, but the story sort of disappeared.

That was because Dupont made it disappear for a while. It's back out, front and center and getting the attention from congress now. 

 
 
 
Freedom Warrior
11  Freedom Warrior    one month ago

I saw the movie last weekend and then got the report on Afghanistan on Monday, which reinforced my view that the US Government is hopelessly corrupt.  

I wouldn't trust them to wipe my ass.

They'll pretend to act as if they are looking out for you but if someone thinks more of their shit is what is going to help improve one's life then they are a fucking fool.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
11.1  Dean Moriarty  replied to  Freedom Warrior @11    one month ago

Yeah I listening to a lengthy report on the Afghanistan war yesterday and it confirmed what I had always thought to be the truth about the whole fiasco. I believe Ron Paul is the only one in government that I can recall ever telling the truth about the Afghanistan war. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
11.1.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Dean Moriarty @11.1    one month ago

The whole mission was a mess. I could forgive it since it was reactionary. What followed just compounded the mess there and spread it through the region... but that is a topic for another day.

 
 
 
Krishna
11.1.2  Krishna  replied to  Dean Moriarty @11.1    one month ago

I believe Ron Paul is the only one in government that I can recall ever telling the truth about the Afghanistan war. 

Whoa, wait a minute! 

What about Trump-- he's a man of great integrity-- so he wouldn't lie about it...(or would he?)

 
 
 
Krishna
11.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @11.1.2    one month ago
What about Trump-- he's a man of great integrity-- so he wouldn't lie about it...(or would he?)

After all, the longer we stay the more the Afghans hate us...and the more American soldiers die. 

Meanwhile thebTaliban remain as firmly entrenched as when the war started.

Just as with past presidents, trump won't get us out of that mess.

And there's absolutely no reason for Trump to keep our troops there!!

Or is there???

 After all, there's no way he could personally derive any monetary value from keeping U.S. troops there!

(or is there? Curious minds want to know!)

$1 Trillion Trove of Rare Minerals Revealed Under Afghanistan

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
11.2  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Freedom Warrior @11    one month ago
They'll pretend to act as if they are looking out for you but if someone thinks more of their shit is what is going to help improve one's life then they are a fucking fool.

I don't think more, but I do think they should be held to what they should be doing, instead of what industry wants. That doesn't take more, but rather a redirection of who they work for.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
12  Trout Giggles    one month ago
Dr. Beck, who has a doctorate in environmental health, comes from a camp — firmly backed by the chemical industry — that says the government too often directs burdensome rules at what she has called “phantom risks.”

I would agree with that to a certain extent, but not with the chemicals listed in this article. My main bitch is how the EPA is putting burdensome regulations on water utilities and states for disinfection by-products...which if anyone has done any research on knows that DBPs are not the demon some lawyer at EPA says they are. They "may" cause kidney, stomach, and liver cancers, but it takes massive amounts of water ingestion to do that. But the EPA has set the standard for DBPs so low that small communities can't meet it.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
12.1  author  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Trout Giggles @12    one month ago

It is so strange that the EPA does that in some cases, while let entire towns be poisoned by other chemicals. Their list is crazy and I don't understand how an agency that is supposed to be based on science, is so unscientific.  

 
 
 
mocowgirl
12.1.1  mocowgirl  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.1    one month ago
an agency that is supposed to be based on science, is so unscientific.  

Maybe the initial purpose of the EPA was to be stewards of the environment or maybe it wasn't.

If the EPA had actually been studying and approving chemicals, then many of the products that were manufactured and sold in the US would not have been permitted in the first place.

I am suspecting that the EPA's purpose was to sell the safety of "approved" chemicals to US citizens and consumers because overall the EPA has proven to be either totally inept and/or corrupt in testing the "safety" of products that are manufactured and/or sold in the US. 

Most, of the people I know, are against "big government".  However, they really trust that same "big government" is guaranteeing the "safety" of everything they use and consume.   In this situation, "big government" acts as their security blanket.

I don't know what the world would have looked like without the products that are destroying us and our environment, but we really must insist on better regulations to protect us from marketing deadly chemicals.

https://theintercept.com/2018/07/31/3m-pfas-minnesota-pfoa-pfos/

Yet the documents released by the Minnesota Attorney General’s Office demonstrate that 3M’s communications strategy altered the scientific record on PFAS by prettifying the scientific picture of PFOA and PFOS over the more than four decades it produced them.

While 3M readily paid its fines, there was no undoing the delay in regulatory action that resulted from the previous decades of keeping its damning information secret. While the studies sat in 3M’s private files, PFAS chemicals from the company’s facilities were entering the water in Minnesota, Alabama, and elsewhere, and PFOS and PFOA were accumulating in the environment and in people, the vast majority of whom now have the chemicals in their blood.

The lag in getting scientific information to regulators in turn resulted in prolonged public exposure to the chemicals, as Philippe Grandjean argues in an editorial in the journal Environmental Health. A physician and environmental health scholar who has studied the immune effects of PFAS and provided expert testimony for Minnesota in the 3M case, Grandjean argues that regulators should learn from this massive misstep, and that substitutes for PFOS and PFOA “should be subjected to prior scrutiny before widespread usage.”

 
 
 
CB
12.1.2  CB   replied to  mocowgirl @12.1.1    one month ago

Hi Mocowgirl. Your comment brings this to my mind. Our system of government allows us to change our leaders periodically. From that we have trained and paid people to play, advance, 'toy with,' and manipulate "the Systems which be." It is so sad. Changing out the players routinely was supposed to 'wash out' and stifle corruption and 'dirty bosses with henchmen" mentalities. 

But, what do you do when the systems themselves become the 'school' for stamping out institutional copies of corruption?

Success can outsmart itself by those players choosing to enter government; and getting selected to take the field!

 
 
 
Krishna
12.1.3  Krishna  replied to  mocowgirl @12.1.1    one month ago

I am suspecting that the EPA's purpose was to sell the safety of "approved" chemicals to US citizens and consumers because overall the EPA has proven to be either totally inept and/or corrupt in testing the "safety" of products that are manufactured and/or sold in the US. 

Remember Scott Pruitt?

(See comment #3 .1.14 , above-- and the article it links to)

 
 
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