Turkey blasts U.S. after Senate passes resolution recognizing Armenian genocide
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
DOHA, Qatar — Turkey criticized the U.S. Senate Saturday, days after a unanimous vote to recognize the Armenian genocide .
In a live interview with MSNBC anchor Ayman Mohyeldin at the Doha Forum, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said he stood by his previous suggestion that those who supported the resolution are cowards.
The Turkish government vociferously opposed the measure to recognize the genocide. It had been blocked by the White House and three times by three different Republican senators, but passed Thursday.
“Politicians with limited knowledge about the history should not judge the history,” Çavuşoğlu said Saturday.
Çavuşoğlu wrote on Twitter earlier this week that the senate’s move was a “political show” and “not legally binding.”
Turkey has long denied that the 1.5 million Armenians killed from 1915-17 should be considered a genocide.
President Recep Tayyip Erdogan complained about the House passing its version of the resolution during a meeting with President Donald Trump in the Oval Office last month.
Ivanka Trump and Senator Lindsey Graham, who also attended the forum, did not respond to these comments in their later sessions.
Graham had previously blocked efforts to pass the resolution on Armenian genocide.
Mohyeldin also questioned Çavuşoğlu about U.S. sanctions on Iran.
“Has the United States gotten any outcome of this or any results?” Çavuşoğlu said. “My answer is no.”
In a live interview directly after, Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin responded to the Turkish criticism.
“We do think our program is working,” he said. “When [Iran is] ready we will take off the sanctions.”
Iran's Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif will be speaking at the Doha Forum Sunday.
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For my friend, Peter, who taught me about the genocide and to the 1.5 million Armenians who were murdered. It's about time! Bravo!
A client who became a friend and bought a house near mine to be close was an Armenian by descent, who related to me the stories his grandfather told him - so as for the headline of this article:
Turkey Blasts U.S. After Senate Passes Resolution Recognizing Armenian Genocide
It's about time America shoved some reality into Erdogan's face.
Armenian Genocide photos contain the most gruesome and horrifying scenes, which is even difficult to picture. In the Syrian desert, Deir ez-Zor, where Armenians were exiled, there were crucified bodies on every step.
This photo was taken in 1915, in Deir ez-Zor desert, where Armenian women were raped, tortured brutally and thrown into harems. After those sufferings, they were crucified alive.
What a horrifying photo. The Turks invented modern genocide. They even used trains and packed them with Armenian people and took them to death camps. They also marched them to their death. They were the inspiration to Hitler's "Final Solution".
The world stood by and said nothing. It's taken the US 100 years to acknowledge it. It's beyond incomprehensible why.
True - It happened in the midst of World War 1
It's taken the US 100 years to acknowledge it.
That is a highly technical statement. While there was no official statement I think it is fair to say most Americans as well as most of the world acknowledged and condemned it. Not in an official proclamation, but in sentiment.
It's beyond incomprehensible why.
We don't need feel good pronouncements from the US House of Representatives. As their legislative term runs out we need action on USMCA, the lowering of prescription drug prices via federal law, military funding and border security. There is no time for symbolic gestures!!!
We don't need feel good pronouncements from the US House of Representatives.
What "feel good pronouncements from the US House of Representatives" are you referring to?
Turkey criticized the U.S. Senate Saturday, days after a unanimous vote to recognize the Armenian genocide .
Of course Suz.
Vic,
Here is a list of the countries that have officially recognized the Genocide:
Regarding the usage of "mass extermination" the Bulgarian Prime Minister Boyko Borisov has specified the following: "I said it very clearly: this is the Bulgarian word or the Bulgarian words, or the Bulgarian idiom for 'genocide.'" [75]
Please note that not only our congress did this, but also the senate and it is about time.
Read the new and Improved? " Resolution " by 116TH CONGRESS 1ST SESSION S. RES. 150.
" Whereas the United States has a proud history of recognizing and condemning the Armenian Genocide" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It explains EVERYTHING the U.S. has done to "Officially" recognize the "Genocide over the decades !
Nope.
Once again you've posted erroneous and misleading information here...
You didn't read the new and improved "Resolution"....did you.
It really does spell everything out quite nicely. Although it's a useless resolution, since it's just an updated version of what's already happened.
This part of the improved "Resolution" should weird you out to the point of maybe needing to be institutionalized ?:
Whereas the United States has officially recognized the Armenian Genocide
(1) through the May 28, 1951, written statement of the United States Government to the International Court of Justice regarding the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and Proclamation No. 4838 issued by President Ronald Reagan on April 22, 1981; and
(2) by House Joint Resolution 148, 94th Congress, agreed to April 8, 1975, and House Joint Resolution 247, 98th Congress, agreed to September 10, 1984; and Whereas the Elie Wiesel Genocide and Atrocities Prevention Act of 2018 (Public Law 115–441) establishes that the prevention of atrocities is a national interest of the United States and affirms that it is the policy of the United States to pursue a United States Government- wide strategy to identify, prevent, and respond to the risk of atrocities by ‘‘strengthening diplomatic response and the effective use of foreign assistance to support appropriate transitional justice measures, including criminal accountability, for past atrocities’’:
That the US is officially against "racism" or "genocide"! Like the people need a pronouncement to reflect what everyone is against! Those pompous asses we pay so well to do the people's business are in no way morally superior to anyone. As a matter of fact, many of them have done terrible things to people. Brett Kavanaugh comes to mind.
Well Suz, after looking over the comments here, I have to say that I don't disagree with anything you've said in your explanation.
I remember that photo. I think you posted about the Armenian genocide a few months back. It shocked me that I didn't learn about this in school. It caused me to read about it. It's still hard to comprehend on some levels, how such things can happen. I understand why they do, but how people can be so blind to what they do?
It is shocking-- imagine being alive-- and physically nailed to a cross? And slowly dying..while in agony for a long, long time.
And also I find shocking the reaction of some of the people here-- who are more moved by how things might effect trade deals with Turkey, or other trivia.
... better 100+ years late than never, I guess...
It a national disgrace if you ask me.
John,
It has been blocked for 100 years for this to be recognized by the US government.
Good. Screw Turkey.
I totally agree!
A common dodge (often used to defend a religion) that likely never works. One does not have to be a Turkish citizen to judge brutal acts of inhumanity. One does not have to be a Nazi to judge Nazi brutality.
Own it. And then never do anything like this again.
Well said Tig!
So... what does this actually do, and for whom?
It worsens relations with Turkey and pushes them closer to Putin,
which is why no other Administration would consider it.
OK. Fair enough.
Do any Armenians benefit in any way?
That remains to be seen. 32 other countries recognize the atrocity, but it is unlikely that there are any survivors with a basis to sue at the World Court.
Phyrric victory?
I think it's about basic respect and dignity for people and what they or their ancestors have suffered. It's an especially ugly attack on that dignity to go around pretending that the atrocity never happened.
My grandmother was Armenian and though her family came over a few years before the events with Turkey they had friends and relatives who suffered, died, or escaped from the Turks. A trial like this becomes central to the identity of people, families, and cultures. The refusal to even acknowledge that it happened is like pouring salt in a wound. Recognizing it is simply the right thing to do.
100 thumbs up.
They at least now know that we finally recognize what happened. Turkey can go pound sand if they don't like it.
Spot on.
I don't see where it would hurt either country or the way things are going.
It is something that happened a century ago, all we are doing is saying that it happened.
I don't think it even harms Turkey. All the government there need to do is say they weren't around at the time and not part of it. Just like slavery in the US. Yes it happened, should be remembered and never forgotten. If for nothing more than a reminder and a warning to never let things like that happen again.
Denying it and getting upset about it is odd to me.
Overall I don't think it is going to change anything.
This article will give you a better view as to why the Turks don't want to admit it was genocide.
Actually watch the video Split. Believe it or not, there are a few. But I doubt due to age, they will be able to sue.
Here are those that who still live:
I totally agree.
It's not about changing anything for the few living, it is about remembering those who died and how evil man can be.
So no tangible benefits?
OK.
Is there anything other than validating feelings?
That's kind of what I'm thinking.
It's history. This is a part of world history.
"validating feelings" ? Are you serious ?
In a world where the feelings of the people can directly impact little things like who is in charge of government, who is willing to do business with whom, or who wants to go to war with someone else, feelings are something that wise leaders take into consideration.
Yeah. Very. It was already recorded history, obviously.
What does this resolution accomplish, aside from making some people "feel better".
That's part of my question. Whom does this help, and how? Are we more likely to land a better trade deal with somebody? Do we have some agenda that is better served by pissing off the Turks? Is there some urgent diplomatic situation that is better resolved if we validate somebody's feelings about Turkish atrocities? What?
It worsens relations with Turkey and pushes them closer to Putin,
Totally false. (In fact you've got it exactly backwards!)
Interesting comment.
Would you also be so strongly opposed to passing a resolution condemning The Holocaust?
On the grounds that no Jews, Poles, etc would not benefit in anyway?
Do you know why that genocide happened? They were clearing Turkey of Christians. Is that OK? Are those the kind of people you want to have a relationship with? I don't give a sh*t if we piss off the Turks. 1.5 million people die, that inspires Hitler and I don't think that should be ignored, especially when there are still survivors left.
The Turks are no one's friend. Do you really think they like us, or our money? I think that should be pretty clear by now. They will not cozy up to Russia, and sometimes, you have to do what is right, rather than expedient.
Totally false. (In fact you've got it exactly backwards!)
Please expand on that premise.
Here's why its backwards. Exactly the reverse of the actual facts:
Turkey had been an important ally for some time for several reasons.
1. A Muslim country, Turkey obviously is no friend of Communism. (Unlike some forms of Socialism, Communism by its very nature is anti-religion... ."Religion is the opium of the Masses").
So during the Cold war we could count on them to be very anti-USSR and anti_Communist China and the satellite countries.
2. Turkey was geographically close to the major Communist nations. In fact during the Cold War it was right on the border of the U.S.S.R.
3. In addition, its very close to the Middle Eastern "hot spots" and oil rich nations (actually bordering Iran, iraq and Syria and not far from The Persian Gulf).
5. And the U.S. has a bigly important air base in Turkey!
But a lot has changed under Erdogan....
So here's why that comment is exactly backwards. (The claim that passing a resolution condemning Turkey will result in driving them closer to Russia).
Ita backwards because what actually is true is the exact opposite-- I our Turkish "ally" has recently gotten much closer to Russia-- and that's what resulted in the resolution being passed- - not the other way around!!!. (Among other things our Turksih ally bought anti-aircraft missiles from Putin-- not from the U.S.)
Among other things our Turksih ally bought anti-aircraft missiles from Putin-- not from the U.S.
Russia may be a good friend of Donald Trump
Russia’s State TV Calls Trump Their ‘Agent’
But Russia is no friend of the U.S.
And recently its become quite obvious that Turkey is no friend of the U.S. either:
Turkey bought Russian S-400 missiles designed to down NATO planes. For the US, that's a problem
In fact recently it looks like Turkey is now more in the Russian camp than in that of the U.S!
And what's relevant to this entire discussion is that the above linked missile sale occured long before (way back in July) the recent Senate vote on the Turkish Genocide of Armenians, not after it!!!
So Turkey's anti-U.S. caused the U.S. vote-- and not the other way around as was falsely claimed in comment # 8. 1.
I personally don't feel we should have any relations with the Saudis. Every 9/11 bomber came from there. And we actually train them so they can shoot up our boys after they become radicalized.
We should have never been there in the first place.
We should have never been there in the first place.
We were there for one reason-- oil.
I'm not opposed. That's just you assuming. I've got very high levels of indifference on the matter.
But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what the point is. If you're not going to actually do anything, then what good is your "statement"?
The same reason they all happen.
Out of curiosity, are there more completely asinine questions on the horizon, or does that one represent the grande finale?
Depends. Are there tangible advantages to having one? If so, then sure. If not, then I'm indifferent.
Again....out of curiosity....how many of the present day Turks participated in the Armenian genocide?
OK fine. But you have yet to explain how it helps any Armenians.
Jack,
How does remembering WWII help America? How does remembering the Holocaust help the Jews?
Look I explained to you why it is important. You want to dismiss it, fine with me. Not fine with any of the living Armenians or their decedents, for the same reason we remember WWII and so do all those who died in those death camps, which were inspired by the Turks... but you claim there is no need to remember this. Hitler would agree:
We ( as in Congress ) have been trying to pass this resolution since 2007.
So Congress, Bush & Obama passed the buck on this collectively for 12 years and you think the date of the missile sales is important?
Turkey can't be trusted and should not be in NATO IMHO.
The Turks lobbied hard against these "meaningless" resolutions in 2007, 2012, 2015 and now
after 12 years the House ( 405-11 ) & Senate ( unanimous ) get their act together and the POTUS will stonewall it.
Now the Resolution is on the POTUS desk and he refuses to sign it. Another victory for Turkey or Russia?
I personally don't feel we should have any relations with the Saudis. Every 9/11 bomber came from there. And we actually train them so they can shoot up our boys after they become radicalized.
And not only did we train some of the 9/11 hijackers in American flight schools...but here's a recent terror attack on a U.S. air base in Florida: ...guess where this Saudi perp was trained?
Article is from December 7th ( this year - - not 2001)
Before Florida Shooting, Gunman Showed Off Videos of Mass Attacks
Investigators are still trying to understand the motive of a Saudi trainee who fatally shot three people at Naval Air Station Pensacola.
As federal authorities worked on Saturday to piece together clues to last week’s attack at a Florida military training base, new details emerged about the gunman, a Saudi trainee who had apparently shown videos of mass shootings at a dinner party the night before.
The Friday morning attack in a classroom building at the Pensacola Naval Air Station left three service members dead and eight others injured. The gunman, armed with a 9-millimeter handgun and several extra magazines, was killed by a sheriff’s deputy.
(read it all)
Yet out love affairs with the Saudis has been ongoing for quite a while.....
Just realized that the Saudi who was being trained at that Florida airbase perpetrated the attack just 10 days ago!
I think it's a bit more than that. If Turkey doesn't acknowledge the crime, doesn't recognize it as genocide, what will prevent them from taking such action in the future? Against the Kurds for instance? It is akin to Germany denying the Nazis were really all that wrong.
I'm not totally up on Turkey, but what I've seen indicates to me that Erdogan is a Nationalist at heart. Combine that with what he is currently doing to religions not Moslem and other things like that, it's hardly a good thing that he refuses to acknowledge the crimes of his ancestors.
Now that we have, at long last, officially recognized and condemned the genocide, we can't wiggle around awkward political points concerning it any longer and Turkey can no longer assume we tacitly give him a pass on the subject.
That seems pretty important to me.
I take that back-- there are other reasons as well. The YUGE amount of money we get from arms sales to the Saudis.
Abnd the hope that Sunni Saudi Arabia will act as a counter balance to militant Shia forces in the region (mostly Iran, but also several Shia terror groups such as Hezb'Allah).
And as Santayana said....Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.
Who are those investigators, 5 year old kids? Allahu Akbar, baby.
You really imagine they didn't know it was wrong at the time? They did. And they did it anyway. Mass atrocities are like that. There isn't any way to justify killing hundreds of thousands of people (or more), but people do it anyway.
I wonder if we're not projecting Western cultural norms onto an Eastern civilization and then complaining when they don't acquiesce.
OK...so same question I've asked everybody else.... In real, tangible, concrete terms, how does that help us?
Is our current diplomacy with Turkey really dependent upon events from a century ago? Is this going to change the outcome of some negotiation with somebody? Who gets what out of this, aside from validated feelings?
Not the point. Politically it makes a difference that we officially recognize the massacre. There are political consequences for us no longer choosing to ignore it's occurrence.
I'm trying to find a way that this doesn't mean something like "Hey, it's just what they do. No skin off our backs." Denying that it happened is not culturally excusable.
One obvious political benefit is it aligns us with most of the first world on this issue. Another is that it strengthens our argument concerning Turkey's failing human rights record. Another is that we can't be beaten with this particular stick anymore. But probably the greatest benefit is simply having done the right thing by our national conscience. I'm sure there are more and stronger benefits but I'm not a diplomat.
However, your position seems to be that what's the point if it doesn't give us something tangibly concrete. Apparently you have some idea of what you think would be tangible. In other words, why bother doing what's morally right unless there's some sort of payoff. I'm not sure that's a good view to hold.
In some ways, yes. Erdogan and many of his countrymen refuse to confirm the genocide. They do so because it would bring shame to their nationalist mindset. A mindset that can deny what obviously took place is a mindset that can believe their country can do no wrong and a mindset that believes that is dangerous. Especially when it's a state leader.
OK. Why is it nobody seems to be able to describe those?
That wasn't the intention, but now that you mention it....it is sort of what they have done for thousands of years.
My point was more along the lines of the nature of apology being different in Western culture. A Western leader can apologize for past transgressions of his nation without losing face personally or exposing his nation to shame. I'm not sure that's the case in someplace like Turkey. I'm guessing such an act means something different there than it does here, or they would have already acknowledged this and they wouldn't be calling us cowards.
Right. So really nothing either tangible or concrete.
Well my original question was along the lines of "what do we actually get out of this". Meaning that for the majority of Americans....who can't tell you when WWI happened, who fought in it, couldn't find Turkey on a map, couldn't find Armenia using Google, and who are utterly oblivious to the fact that atrocities took place.... what benefit will those people see?
No action is without cost, so it's certainly reasonable to ask what we're getting in return for the cost of irritating a NATO ally in a pivotal geographic location. As of yet, all the benefits described have been emotional.
So we're validating feelings, which is not necessarily terrible. If we want to spend this bit of geopolitical capital to make a few people feel better, OK, but let's understand the transaction. While we're all gung-ho about acknowledging things, we can start with our own motivations for doing this.
It's more along the lines of talk being cheap. As I've asked elsewhere, is there going to be an educational campaign? Will damages be paid to descendants? Will we set aside a day every year to celebrate Armenian culture? Will there be a museum? A documentary? An essay contest for an annual scholarship? No? So do we really give a shit about this at all?
If a toothless statement 100 years after the fact counts as "doing what's morally right", we have not lost our moral compass as much as we've smashed it with a sledgehammer, sold the scrap metal for crystal meth and urinated on the broken glass for good measure.
In one sentence you describe how very different their mindset is. In the next, you presume that non-Western mindset will produce very Western results. I just don't think that holds up.
Sorry, man. You're trying to argue the inarguable. Trying to present arguments and considerations that just don't exist. There is no western vs non-western aspect to this argument. No political entity ever wants to admit to past mistakes. It is culturally universal. The reason is that it is a universal human trait.
People have attempted to explain to you why this matters. Apparently you reject the reasoning. I don't think there's much point in my continuing.
Good luck.
If that were the case, somebody would have presented some sort of evidence that this is about more than people's feelings. And yet.....
What doesn't exist is concrete, measurable benefit to anybody...which wouldn't have been hard to achieve or document.
So their culture is just like ours. Riiiiiight. Are you listening to yourself?
This is just categorically untrue. US political leaders....especially liberal/progressive ones....positively LOVE admitting past mistakes. Maximizing white liberal guilt helps them stay in office.
I reject the idea we're doing anything more than appeasing emotions, yes. Exactly zero people have identified any other type of gain from this resolution.
If that is such an unimportant thing, why should we give a shit about Turkey’s feelings?
I don't know that we should or shouldn't. I think it probably depends on how pissed off we think they will actually be.
It wasn't very long ago we needed Turkey's help in a military operation. They occupy one of the most strategic pieces of real estate in the history of the world. They currently host 50 of our nuclear weapons.
So that's the balance of this transaction. We're pissing off (to some as of yet undetermined degree) a NATO ally with strategic importance and 4 dozen nuclear bombs over an event a century ago. In return, we're apparently getting a feel-good boost for the small part of our population that knows an Ottoman wasn't always just a piece of furniture.
If Turkey is only mildly irritated, then OK fine. If they're really upset and suddenly Russian military personnel are "inspecting" advanced NATO aircraft, then this may be a terrible decision. In any case, it deserves non-emotional consideration.
Try to understand this. I'll try to put it as plainly as I can. Culture does not excuse genocide. Whether their culture is like ours or not is not relevant. Culture has zero to do with this. Genocide cannot be made right because of culture. And any other way you can think of to say culture doesn't matter.
If you think otherwise, you might want to think about why.
Pretty sure Drakk is referring to the idea that genocide is almost universally viewed as immoral.
This act was 100 years too late. The atrocities should have been recognized immediately and the tangible consequences would have been some form of pressure on the Turkish leadership that actually was behind this genocide. Those leaders are now long gone and we are left with their descendants who operate in their 2019 version of their culture. Not the same thing by any stretch.
It is indeed geopolitical capital that we are paying to do the right thing — to recognize the atrocities. The benefit is intangible, it is a moral assertion from a nation that has its own immoral history (in particular, the treatment of our indigenous people). So your point, IMO, is a good one. Looking at this objectively there is no net gain by recognizing this century old atrocity. We have acted too late for tactical benefit. But I can appreciate why people support calling out atrocities; we (everyone) should call out all such atrocities (including one's own) and make a moral pledge to never allow this to happen again.
That established, Turkish leadership is wrong to try to fight this. They should own it just as we should own our own failures and take measures to ensure our societies operate with a higher moral standard going forward.
If they were engaged in genocide, you might have a point. Is there an ongoing genocide in Turkey? Are we saving lives? We should send in the Marines!! Or did all that end a century ago?
Try to understand this. I'll try to put it as plainly as I can. This isn't about genocide, it's about shame.
You're demanding an outward show of remorse (feelings) from the Turks so that you can "feel better" about them being ashamed of themselves.
To you. I suspect they may feel differently.
You're asking for public shame from people who were not alive to witness the event in question. It's very likely that there are cultural implications of that which you don't understand, and are clearly not willing to understand because you insist that they should put your feelings above their own.
Are they celebrating it? Are they asking you to celebrate it? Are they asking you to express any sort of approval whatsoever? No?
I think other people have cultural values that are not less important than my own. I'm a bit of a wide-eyed liberal that way.
Yes it is. That doesn't mean how it's dealt with in Turkish culture should be measured by American standards.
Fair enough. But apparently we don't even care enough about this to sponsor an essay contest for a scholarship, which is why I question what we're actually doing.
They may be. Or not. They may also be in a position where doing so is much more damaging to them personally and politically than the same action would be for an American politician. I'm not an expert on Turkish culture, but I've lived among Middle Eastern immigrants for long enough to understand that sometimes something very minor to us is very major to them.
The idea that we have several educated people who are unwilling to at least consider that possibility is disappointing.
Yes-- taking a firm stand on a moral issue-- something which is apparently alien to some peoples' way of thinking!
Clearly the Turkish leadership agrees with you. And, by the same token, Americans are quite free to judge this action by our standards.
I see no benefit on the world stage in denying the undeniable. So when speaking of geopolitical capital, it is best IMO to accept the criticism, diplomatically mitigate escalation and try to move on to other important matters.
I will quote myself.
The point is not about shame, although shame should be felt for what their ancestors did. No, it's about preventing future occurrences of the same sort of thing. If Turkey doesn't recognize what factually occurred as genocide, what is to prevent them from doing it again? After all, if they do not recognize the previous actions as genocide, what is to prevent them from doing it again?
By not admitting the fact of genocide they are accepting responsibility for their ancestors actions in the worst possible way. It is as if they themselves have committed the crime. They are, in essence, saying their ancestors were not wrong to do it. That they had some justification for what happened.
This isn't so much about what happened 100 years ago as about what is happening now. It would be as if today's Germany denied the holocaust was unjustified or even a crime. It is as if Germany denied any wrongdoing. Would you just chalk such a thing up to "cultural values?"
"Firm stand"? Wait....issuing an acknowledgement about something everybody already knows took place is a "firm stand"?? Wow. So I guess building an Armenian Holocaust Museum would have been somewhere between "hard core" and "extortion"?
Right. OK.
Out of curiosity, are there other events in foreign countries you intend to demand a "firm stand" on? Will we need a US Govt proclamation acknowledging the Assyrian enslavement of Israel and Egypt, for example? How about a formal condemnation of the Danish massacre at Lindisfarne in 793AD? Or is there some sort of statute of limitations on atrocity?
Interesting idea, but I'm not so sure. Should Rose Bundy feel shame for what her father did?
Should my son feel shame because his ancestors were slaveowners? Should he feel shame because they would be considered terrorists by today's standards? They were outlaws and traitors who murdered, stole, and conspired to overthrow a lawful government.
But the moment Cornwallis surrendered, they became heroes.
See...I don't think that necessarily follows, but I am willing to listen. So explain how US acknowledgment of this action makes future genocides less likely? Or Turkish acknowledgment, for that matter. It just doesn't seem very plausible to me.
If you are in the process of committing a genocide, you've passed the point where morality is going to matter. You've figured out a way to rationalize the idea that "this" genocide is warranted and you've frightened or executed those who would stop you. You're not going to give a fiddler's fuck about what's written on some proclamation by a government you probably overthrew anyway.
What's to prevent them doing it again anyway?
Sorry, man, Now you're just getting silly.
I've always been a very curious person.
So when I come across a comment that seems like it doesn't pass "the smell test"-- I am often tempted to check.
Not only "indifferent on the matter" being discussed-- but actually having "high levels of indifference"?
Well if that we're the case I would expect you wouldn't comment on the article-- or maybe make one comment and leave.
So I checked for the "True facts" (as opposed to the "alternative facts":
I've got very high levels of indifference on the matter.
when I come across a comment that seems like it doesn't pass "the smell test"-- I am often tempted to check.
Not only "indifferent on the matter" being discussed-- but actually having "high levels of indifference"?
So I checked for the "True facts" (as opposed to the "alternative facts".
And when I did a reality check on the actual "true facts" (as to whether you were being honest when you claimed that your were "indifferent" to this topic) here's what I found:
You actually made a total of 34 comments in the discussion!
Now I'm really curious-- how come if you are so "disinterested" in the topic being discussed here-- you took the time and effort to comment 34 times ?!!???!
(Don't you realize that if you keep doing that sort of thing people will start questioning your credibility?)
Jack,
I am not sure what your point is? Is this your same attitude about the millions who died in the camps in Nazi Germany?
It matters, when we recognize each and every one of these modern genocides, to those who live, (and they do) and to their descendants, their deaths are at least recognized, just as we remember Anne Frank. To know that the Turks inspired Hitler is enough for me to feel that this event is forever remembered and commemorated.
Did we pass a resolution about that recently? If so, why?
Why? How is their life better now that it was 2 weeks ago?
OK. So are we more likely to remember Hitler now because of this? I can't say I think we were likely to forget him.
I was never taught about the Armenian genocide in school. As I recall, most of my "world" history classes focused on western European and American history (north American, of course), with a smattering of facts about eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. The Armenian genocide was never mentioned. So, yes, I could see us forgetting about some of these atrocities, if we do not make an active effort toward remembrance. Some have already forgotten, and I'm very willing to bet that some never knew.
Jack,
This may mean nothing to you since obviously, you are not Armenian, but it does to them.
What does that mean? Do you think the world has forgotten what Hitler did?
Remembering is important. When we came out of WWII we all said, "Never again", but the Armenian Christians were slaughtered for being nothing but Christians, and the US has looked away for 100 years, while the Armenians have been trying to get this recognized the whole time.
Ok-- you've convinced us!
So now the thing we must do is pass a resolution rescinding all resolutions and/or comments the U.S. or prominent U.S. leaders have made condemning the Holocaust!
Because after all, those actions didn't make the lives of any of the victims better!
/sarc
So now the thing we must do is pass a resolution rescinding all resolutions and/or comments the U.S. or prominent U.S. leaders have made condemning the Holocaust!
Because after all, those actions didn't make the lives of any of the victims better!
But that's not even the worst of it...
Any resolutions ...or even statements...we make or have made will have an even more disastrous result-- beyond any shadow of a doubt they will "piss off" our German ally-- and force Germany to move closer to Putin!
Oh-- the horror! First we condemn the past actions of one of our best and most totally loyal allies Erdogan -- and then we totally "piss off" another of our allies-- Germany! All because of a few minor past indiscretions on the part of Germany (The Holocaust). And what do we accomplish? All we have done is drive both Turkey and Germany closer to Putin.
Remembering is important.
Exactly!
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
I wonder how many people here realize what Eisenhower said-- and did-- re: the Holocaust?
When we came out of WWII we all said, "Never again", but the Armenian Christians were slaughtered for being nothing but Christians
That may be one of the reasons certain people on this site are defending and/or making light of Erdogan's actions-- after all, the Turks were Muslims, and the Armenians were . . . Christians!!
.Some people hate Blacks, some hate Whites, or Jews, Gays, Muslims, Southerners, Northerners, liberals, conservatives, Hispanics Indians, Chinese-Americans, Millennials, "Senior Citizens" woman, wealthy people, poor people, etc,., etc. And I have noticed that for whatever reason some people on this site really, really hate Christians. (So in addition to a few "Too bad Hitler didn't finish the job" types, there are a small number of haters of Christians as well . So not surprisingly they approve of what the Turks did to the Armenians...so they feel the need to strongly defend it
So are we more likely to remember Hitler now because of this? I can't say I think we were likely to forget him.
Not forget that he existed. But its important to remeber the details.
(there are some people called "holocaust deniers" who spend a lot of time and effort trying to convince the world that it never happened. That, for example, all the victims of the Holocaust died of other causes-- famine and disease due to bad conditions the Zgermans all suffered because of the war, Allied attacks etc.)
There was one of those of NV that was attempting to do this. And some people believe them.
(There are people who to this day believe the Holocaust never happened).
So-- do you think its imoportant to let the facts of history be known..or not?
Wasn't trying to convince you of anything. Disappointed it's so easily accomplished.
Can we pass a resolution condemning idiotic melodrama?
You're (really sad) attempt at sarcasm aside. It was a question.
The answer is obviously "no", or you'd have been able to identify a tangible benefit to this action.
I remember as a child an elderly neighbor. She had numbers tattooed on her forearm. Do the deniers think she was making a fashion statement? It was not until I got older that I understood the significance of those numbers. There was a show called 7th Heaven where an actress told her real life story of being a Holocaust survivor. She reminded me so much of my neighbor that I broke down in tears hearing it as did the cast. One of them was interviewed at a later date and said how the tears were genuine and just not acting. Her story affected them so much.
So now condemning the death of 1.5 million Christians is melodrama.
That is beyond cold.
What does it mean to them? Will any of them head into 2020 better off than they are now because of this?
I'm not sure what part of "I can't say I think we were likely to forget him" gave the impression that I think we've forgotten him.
Obviously I don't think that. You're the one who connected this to Hitler.
Your implication seemed to be that this resolution somehow makes the rise of another Hitler type figure less likely, as though this condemnation somehow stands out from those already in place against him. If I misunderstand that, please correct me. If I do understand that correctly, please develop that idea further, because I'm not sure I see how that connection really helps.
Clearly....we remember.
Was there concern that we were likely to forget in the absence of a US Govt resolution?
Serious question.... see if you can manage a serious answer....
Do you believe this resolution makes us more likely to remember Hitler and the holocaust of Nazi Germany? If so....why do you think we were unlikely to remember it otherwise, and how....specifically.....do you expect this action to help?
I saw that episode. It was very well done.
In 2006 I took my family to Dachau. We also saw the old Frankenstadion, where many of the Hitler Youth rallies were held. My kids were 12 and 7 at the time. It was very educational.
Welcome to the Internet!
Then you are part of the problem! Don't you realize that by doing that you would be contributing to pissing off germany-- and forcing the germans to "turn towards Putin"?
/sarcasm
Are you kidding? The Armenians have been trying to get the US to acknowledge this since it happened. This has nothing to do with being "woke". This has to do with remembering history.
You know history, just like you complaining about the Taliban and status in another article of mine. We need to acknowledge it especially since Turkey denies it and has done its own revisionist history on it.
Yes that is it. Because that is not the history that the Turks are presenting. Someone's history wins. Don't make it official then Turkey's own revisionist history wins.
Jack,
History is told by the winners, and clearly Turkey won. They slaughtered 1.5 million people.
Turkey denies it and has done its own revisionist history on it.
If we, as leader of the free world, don't recognize it, then it's like saying it never happened, which btw, is what Turkey claims.
Does that clarify?
I am not sure I could handle going to Dachau emotionally.
Do you mean what am I calling them?
So....failure of the US Govt to issue a statement on something is "like saying it never happened".....
Seems a bit strange, and seems an incredible burden to put on a group of people who are rarely very competent.
So how far does this rule extend, exactly? Where is the point where we as individuals are allowed to conclude for ourselves that something happened?
OK stop.
The implication that 1 American in 1000 knows Turkey's history (actual or revisionist) is patently ludicrous. We don't know our own history, much less that of another country. If we as a society are likely to forget about atrocities, it will be due to the failure of our own educational system and the stupidity of our own citizens. Blaming Turkey for that is ridiculous.
Congressional proclamations don't change the fact that our schools don't teach and our kids don't know anything.
Read the entire comment.
Seriously. SMH.
In 2006 I took my family to Dachau.
So... what does this actually do, and for whom?
It's certainly a somber day.
I don't know where your kids went to school but my kids know American and world history.
And btw, I was a teacher for over 20 years, so I would know what and isn't taught.
And somehow this comes down to education. I think we are done here.
Ditto. And I did read the whole thing, but I felt that comment about melodrama was just over the top for me.
Perrie, what was your last year of teaching? You do know there are things, now, left out of OUR history let alone those of the world. Sadly some think they can't handle the truth and don't even want to attempt to let them have their own thoughts about the good and the bad. I can't remember the last time there was no "article", term used loosely, named "Things you learned in school that aren't necessarily true"
My last year of teaching was 4 years ago. And I am sorry, but I am not sure where what you are talking about is going on, but it's not on LI.
Oh really??? How 'bout this one MUVA -
A sorry saga: Obama signs Native American apology resolution; fails to draw attention to it
How many people know about that one? Not many - period.
The resolution also includes a disclaimer: Nothing in it authorizes or supports any legal claims against the United States, and the resolution does not settle any claims.
Even with the more general language, the apology is historic, but the White House has made no announcements to date about it. Nor has Obama expressed an apology to any tribes or Indian citizens, despite saying on the presidential campaign trail that he thought an apology was warranted.
At the White House Tribal Nations Conference on Nov. 5, Obama noted, among other observations, that treaties were violated with tribes and injustices had been done against them, but he did not offer an explicit apology.
The resolution Obama signed specifically "urges the President to acknowledge the wrongs of the United States against Indian tribes in the history of the United States in order to bring healing to this land."
So, by signing the document as part of the defense spending bill, did Obama fulfill the resolution? Or, does he have an obligation to say the apology out loud and to let tribes know he signed the resolution?
According to White House spokesman Shin Inouye, there are "no updates at this time" on how Obama might proceed.
And those updates never came about.
So, what's more important - apologizing to a foreign country for the atrocities that another foreign country took against them - or following through on an "implied" apology to the Native Americans based on the atrocities taken against them by the U.S. government???
It improved my children's education.
To that point, does this Senate resolution provide for some sort of Armenian genocide museum? Does it offer funding to improve the teaching of history in our schools? Does it authorize or create some sort of quango to further Armenian culture or educate someone about this particular chapter in history? Does it authorize educational materials, a website, a prize for a documentary competition, or even a scholarship for an essay contest on the topic?
Does it allocate funds for compensation to the families or does it demand that the Turks pay such compensation? Does it establish "National Armenian American Day"? Does it organize a music festival? A film festival? A poetry reading?
Do tell.
When the binary choice here is either agree with him completely or "rescind everything", that's melodrama.
He's having an episode about "rescinding every resolution about the holocaust"....so what would you call it?
You'll notice when I asked him a serious question, the best he could manage was that taking my kids to Dachau made me "part of the problem".
When colleges such as Stanford decline to require Western Civilization classes or high schools propose changing their curriculum so that history is taught only from 1877 onward (this happened in North Carolina), it’s merely a blip in our news cycle.
"Consider this from a disturbing new report on how U.S. schools teach — or, rather, don’t teach — students about the history of slavery in the United States:
Only 8 percent of U.S. high school seniors could identify slavery as the central cause of the Civil War.
68 percent of the surveyed students did not know that slavery formally ended only with an amendment to the Constitution.
Only 22 percent of the students could correctly identify how provisions in the Constitution gave advantages to slaveholders.
Only 44 percent of the students answered that slavery was legal in all colonies during the American Revolution."
"Furthermore, by reducing the importance of U.S. history in public schools, we deprive American children of an opportunity to learn about their heritage. And in so doing, we fail these students by neglecting to adequately educate them. The study of history -- and particularly American history – cultivates an understanding and appreciation for the ideals the nation was founded upon. Thomas Jefferson, for example, believed deeply than an educated citizenry was essential to the preservation of the American experiment. After all, how can one expect posterity to preserve American democratic principles if they cannot define what they are?"
Just relating to my own son's experience(s) in school..............or lack thereof.
My wife is a K-2 teacher so she doesn't get much exposure to the things lacking in our schools today as the little ones don't need it...................YET!!!
Well, since obviously you feel that you know quite a bit..I suppose we can conclude that you didn't not get your education in American schools?
There have been several apologies to AI, mostly piece meal and like the defense spending budget, toothless.
It specifically said it would not affect the status of any longstanding legal claims against the US.
Well, then this would make you happy 1st.
Trump refuses to back recognition of Armenian genocide after Erdogan threat:
Donald Trump's administration has rejected a US Senate resolution recognising the Armenian genocide, just a day after Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan threatened to recognise the killing of Native Americans in retaliation.
So while you are bemoaning what Obama did (wrongfully), why not also say that Trump hasn't done it either, and can be threatened by a foreign nation over it?
One of mine was livid to get these questions wrong in a SC ( middle school ) history test.
Father of our country ..........Jefferson Davis ( Not George Washington )
Capital, Richmond not Washington etc.
it was in all fairness reading comprehension and a lack of exposure to the culture by recent "transfers", lol
I see we've run beyond your ability to participate constructively in the conversation, as you're now discussing me instead of the topic.
Is it your position that most Americans are well versed in Turkish history? Armenian history? Is it your position that most American students today can even identify basic facts about WWI, like how it started or when and why the Americans entered?
Nor would Bush acknowledge either the Armenians or the AI.
My use of "denier" was in reference to the Holocaust deniers.
Trump has a hotel in Turkey so of course he is backing down, but it has nothing to do with a threat in regards to American Indians.
I've met kids that actually know some things.
Maybe you're hangin' with the wrong type of kids..?
When colleges such as Stanford decline to require Western Civilization classes or high schools proposechanging their curriculum so that history is taught only from 1877 onward (this happened in North Carolina), it’s merely a blip in our news cycle.
If colleges don't teach this (as well as some of the other things you've mentioned) that raises an interesting question...what are they teaching?
Sheesh-- this sounds a lot like two third-graders squabbling in the schoolyard!
One in three American HS seniors can tell you which year we entered WWI.
The satisfaction of vindication, of being proven correct and being able to see that the USA has clearly condemned the genocide - perhaps an emotional relief, but there is still something of value with that.
There just happens to be truth in that as well, is there not? Perhaps that, too, should be acknowledged and apologized for, especially so using that fact as blackmail would not be used as effectively as Erdogan has obviously done.
Although I don't wish to death-wish anyone, I would not be at all upset if I were to read a news story that someone tied Erdogan to the wheel of the Mavi Marmora and sank it in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea.
OK. So validated feelings. Fair enough.
But why now? What's in this for somebody like Ted Cruz? And the first person that suggests Ted "wants to do the right thing" is getting a cyber slap upside the head for being a dumbass.
Well, we have been trying to pass it for years now, since 2007 after over 40 years of the American Armenians trying to get it recognized. Here is an interesting comment made by the Russians back then:
Today about a million Armenians living here in the US now.
And I have no idea of what Ted Cruz has to do with this.
Ted cosponsored the Senate resolution with Bob Menendez and
Ted used some flowery language about the truth and darkness while patting himself on the back for a bipartisan effort...
There's an old saying:
If you're in a hole, stop digging!
The more you attempt to defend the indefensible, the deeper in you are getting.
And all your efforts are fooling no one...