On Facebook, anti-vaxxers urged a mom not to give her son Tamiflu. He later died.

  
Via:  perrie-halpern  •  2 weeks ago  •  85 comments

By:   Brandy Zadrozny

On Facebook, anti-vaxxers urged a mom not to give her son Tamiflu. He later died.
Online groups that routinely traffic in anti-vaccination propaganda have become a resource for people seeking out a wide variety of medical information.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Facebook groups that routinely traffic in anti-vaccination propaganda have become a resource for people seeking out a wide variety of medical information — including about the ongoing flu season.

Facebook hosts a vast network of groups that trade in   false health information . On “Stop Mandatory Vaccination,” one of the largest known health misinformation groups with more than 178,000 members, people have solicited advice for how to deal with the flu. Members of the group have previously spread conspiracies that outbreaks of preventable diseases are “hoaxes” perpetrated by the government, and use the groups   to mass-contact parents whose children have died   and suggest without evidence that vaccines may be to blame.

One recent post came from the mother of a 4-year-old Colorado boy who died from the flu this week. In it, she consulted group members while noting that she had declined to fill a prescription written by a doctor.

The child had not been diagnosed yet, but he was running a fever and had a seizure, the mother wrote. She added that two of her four children had been diagnosed with the flu and that the doctor had prescribed the antiviral Tamiflu for everyone in the household.

“The doc prescribed tamiflu I did not pick it up,” she wrote.

Tamiflu is the most common antiviral medication prescribed to treat the flu. The drug can ease symptoms and shorten the length of illness, but   concerns about side effects   are common even outside anti-vaccination echo chambers. The flu has hit children   particularly hard   this season. Pediatric hospitalization rates are higher than normal, and 68 children have died, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

NBC News verified the posts by cross-referencing them with a fundraising page set up by the family, along with published news reports quoting the family.

The posts highlight how Facebook groups dedicated to health misinformation such as vaccinations can also be used to solicit and share potentially dangerous medical advice. A study by the American Academy of Family Physicians found that 59 percent of parents said their child had missed the flu shot at least once due to “ misinformation or misunderstanding .”

None of the 45 comments on the mother’s Facebook post suggested medical attention. The child was eventually hospitalized and   died four days later , according to a GoFundMe started on his behalf by his family.

The mother also wrote that the “natural cures” she was treating all four of her children with — including peppermint oil, Vitamin C and lavender — were not working and asked the group for more advice. The advice that came in the comments included breastmilk, thyme and elderberry, none of which are medically recommended treatments for the flu.

“Perfect, I’ll try that,” the mother responded.

The mother’s recent posts have now been deleted from Stop Mandatory Vaccination, but in group posts going back to 2017 she said she had not vaccinated her children from the flu.

The mother did not respond to a request for comment.

A Facebook spokesperson said in an emailed statement: “This is a tragedy and our thoughts are with his family and loved ones. We don’t want vaccine misinformation on Facebook, which is why we’re working hard to reduce it everywhere on the platform, including in private groups.”

In an emailed statement, the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment confirmed that the preschooler had died from the flu and said it did not have records showing whether the child was vaccinated.

“While flu is circulating, it is not too late to get a flu shot, and we recommend everyone ages six months and older who has not had the yearly vaccine get it,” the department said.

Over the last year — amid   nationwide concern   over vaccine hesitancy and the worst measles outbreak in decades — Facebook has taken steps to limit the volume and reach of groups that spread anti-vaccine content.

Following similar decisions by Pinterest and YouTube, Facebook announced in March that it would   limit the reach   of anti-vaccination content, no longer serve up anti-vaccination groups and pages in search results and the recommendations bar, and no longer allow users and groups that spread vaccine misinformation   to place ads or run fundraisers . In September, Facebook rolled out   pop-up warnings   for users searching for vaccine-related content.

But Facebook has stopped short of banning the   anti-vaccine groups   themselves, citing an unease with being the arbiter of truth.

Facebook groups are a hotbed of vaccine misinformation and content, said Kolina Koltai, a researcher at the University of Texas at Austin, who has studied the social media behavior of the anti-vaccination movement since 2015. Koltai said she’s seen similar posts in which women have reported that their children were sick with measles or cancer and received medically questionable advice.

“These communities have become a haven or resource for parents and for women to connect with others and ask for help,” Koltai said.

One of the biggest purposes of these groups is as a main information exchange hub. And when these groups are recommending potentially medically unsound advice, it can have a severely negative consequence.

“This is what we warn about,” Koltai said.

CORRECTION   (Feb. 7, 2020, 1:54 p.m. ET): An earlier version of this article misstated the number of members that the Facebook group "Stop Mandatory Vaccination" has. It has 178,000, not 139,000.

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igknorantzrulz
1  igknorantzrulz    2 weeks ago

"Facebook groups that routinely traffic in anti-vaccination propaganda have become a resource for people seeking out a wide variety of medical information — including about the ongoing flu season."

WTF, as in 

Where The Fuck else,

would an intelligent thinking individual obviously go for MEDICAL ADVISE<

,   Other than Frckn Facebook...?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
2  Buzz of the Orient    2 weeks ago
"Facebook hosts a vast network of groups that trade in   false health information "

I'd venture that your First Amendment needs some qualifications. In Canada, the mother would probably be charged with a criminal offense.  Wouldn't that make Facebook an accessory?

 
 
 
Gordy327
3  Gordy327    2 weeks ago

Anti-vaccers are a threat to public health, and examples like this proves it. They use socoal media to promote misinformation and willful ignorance.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
3.1  r.t..b...  replied to  Gordy327 @3    2 weeks ago
Anti-vaccers

Anti-scientific fact. I cannot imagine sticking one's head in the sand to refute and openly discount readily accessible and proven fact in the name of dubious data and even worse, political and/or religious dogma. Flat-eartherism.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
3.1.1  Dean Moriarty  replied to  r.t..b... @3.1    2 weeks ago

Don't forget about the evidence that it could have serious side effects. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/13/tamiflu-side-effects/332712002/

The drug’s warning label notes that people with influenza, including those taking Tamiflu, may be at an increased risk of confusion or abnormal behavior. The Food and Drug Administration also mentions this as a potential serious side effect , saying that people who have the flu or take Tamiflu should be watched for signs of unusual behavior.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also notes there have been reports of delirium and self-injury in teenagers on Tamiflu

 
 
 
r.t..b...
3.1.2  r.t..b...  replied to  Dean Moriarty @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
Don't forget about the evidence that it could have serious side effects.

Never forget. All the more reason to cultivate a relationship with your primary care physician and your child's pediatrician, rather than put your trust in social media outlets.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
3.1.3  Dean Moriarty  replied to  r.t..b... @3.1.2    2 weeks ago

The problem is many doctors have become pill pushers for big pharma and spend little time educating the patient on the dangers of the drugs they are prescribing or the difficulty the patient might experience coming off of many of these drugs. 
I had a hell of a time discontinuing the use of a drug called Gabapentin and the doctors never warned me when prescribing the medication. 

 
 
 
SteevieGee
3.1.4  SteevieGee  replied to  Dean Moriarty @3.1.1    2 weeks ago

Delirium and self injury is still better than dead.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
3.1.5  Dean Moriarty  replied to  SteevieGee @3.1.4    2 weeks ago

Looks like the end result was the same for the kid that committed suicide. Self injury can be fatal. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.1.6  Gordy327  replied to  Dean Moriarty @3.1.1    2 weeks ago

No one is saying there are not any potential side effects. But most people probably tolerate vaccines reasonably well and the benefits far outweigh the risks, both to the individual and those around them.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.1.7  Gordy327  replied to  r.t..b... @3.1    2 weeks ago

Tell me about it. Such positioned is based on ignorance and/or fear, perpetrated by those equally ignorant or biased on such  matters.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
3.1.8  sandy-2021492  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.6    2 weeks ago

I believe Dean is referring to the side effects of Tamiflu, rather than the flu vaccine.  TBH, I think there are legitimate concerns.

That being said, the kids should have had their flu shots.  They may have either avoided the flu altogether, or had milder cases, and the boy might still be alive.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.9  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.8    2 weeks ago

Well, both the hubby and I are on Tamaflu right now. He has the flu and they are giving it to me prophylactically. We are both find. I don't know of a single drug without side effects to someone, but the same can be said of food. I even know a couple where the wife is allergic to her husband's semen (not sperm). The human body can be very sensitive and so knowledge instead of fear should be your friend. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
3.1.10  sandy-2021492  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.9    2 weeks ago

Hope the hub gets over it quickly, and that you don't get it.

I don't know of a single drug without side effects to someone

There are none, to my knowledge.

In the case of Tamiflu for children, I'm a bit torn.  Given that the side effects are potentially severe, and unpredictable, and that Tamiflu may or may not have saved the child's life, I have reservations about seeing this as a case of medical neglect on the basis of withholding Tamiflu alone.

I'm a bit more judgy about the fact that they didn't get their flu shots, and that she tried to treat her kids' flu with essential oils and potatoes or cucumbers (reports vary) in their socks.  I mean, really, just what is a cucumber in your sock going to do against the flu?

 
 
 
Tacos!
4  Tacos!    2 weeks ago

Don't go to the internet for medical advise. Seriously. Talk to your doctor. Your doctor has examined you and has complete information specific to you. Facebook is somewhat less informed.

Internet medicine is very generalized and search results always include the worst-case scenario, no matter how unlikely or inapplicable to you personally. Naturally, that's what people focus on, so they search out some everyday symptom and the internet convinces them they have cancer.

Also - and maybe this isn't super important to the seed - but the headline does not reflect what the story says. The headline says the anti-vaxxers on FB urged this mom not to give her kid Tamiflu. That makes it sound like she was considering it and got talked out of it.

But the story says she announced that she had not picked up the medicine and was asking people for alternatives, which they supplied. That's a different scenario than the one suggested by the headline.

 
 
 
bbl-1
5  bbl-1    2 weeks ago

Another oxymoron presents itself to all freedom loving Americans.

1.  She had a choice and made it to not vaccinate.

2.  She also had an earlier choice to terminate that pregnancy and chose not to.

Appears as if this incident is a wash.  The end result is the same.  Sad isn't it?

 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1  Gordy327  replied to  bbl-1 @5    2 weeks ago

What oxymoron?  She simply made a bad choice, based on ignorance or fear. And abortion isn't the issue.

 
 
 
Tacos!
5.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  Gordy327 @5.1    2 weeks ago
She simply made a bad choice

It's not the choice I would have made, but the truth is we can't even say for certain that Tamiflu would have saved this kid.

 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.1    2 weeks ago

True, but at least it would have given him a better chance. Viruses are nasty little beasties to deal with.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
6  Paula Bartholomew    2 weeks ago

Don't want to vaccinate your kids, fine, but keep them home and away from especially vulnerable groups of people such as infants and the elderly.  Home school your kids.  Teach them how to buy only on line as stores are not an option.  No play dates, no zoos, no museums, amusement parks, parks, parades, etc.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1  Gordy327  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @6    2 weeks ago

I'd say refusing to vaccinate one's kids is practically child endangerment. Either them or other people's kids.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
6.1.1  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1    2 weeks ago

More like societal endangerment.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @6.1.1    2 weeks ago

That too.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.3  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1    2 weeks ago
I'd say refusing to vaccinate one's kids is practically child endangerment. Either them or other people's kids.

And yet how many "modern" treatments in medicine have proven to be bullshit. Leeching? Bloodletting? Electro-shock therapy? Let's go a little more current?

On the other hand, if your kids are vaccinated, what is there to worry about, right?

So if these parents don't vaccinate their kids and you vaccinated yours, who is actually in more danger here?

Besides, it isn't like there is any correlation between increased vaccination of children and increased rates of SID's or Autism is there? I mean other than statistics of course...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.4  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.3    2 weeks ago

Leeches are still used following some surgeries to prevent blood clots and remove excess blood from engorged tissue.  Bloodletting is not commonly used, but is the treatment of choice for hemochromatosis.  And electroshock therapy has been shown useful for patients whose depression is resistant to treatment with medications.

Not bullshit.

And the uses to which you refer?  Hardly modern, or performed in an era when medical treatments were subject to scrutiny via the scientific method.

Not so with vaccines.

A quick glance through your drug "recall" list reveals quite a few drugs that are still on the market.

if your kids are vaccinated, what is there to worry about, right?

We know that vaccines are not 100% effective.  However, if enough of a population is vaccinated, it results in herd immunity.  Those in whom the vaccine is ineffective or partially effective are protected by the fact that they are unlikely to encounter the disease from which the vaccine provides protection.

SIDS deaths have declined sharply since parents were advised to put babies to sleep on their backs.  And there has been no causative link established between vaccines and autism.  Correlation is not causation.  You may want to look for more neutral sources to avoid confirmation bias.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.5  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.4    2 weeks ago
And there has been no causative link established between vaccines and autism.  Correlation is not causation. 

And there is a reason for that. It seems that on the spectrum, kids develop autism from very early in their childhood, to years in. There are also so many kinds of autism and although the reasons vary from the number of connections in the white matter, developing slower and fewer, to them never forming. 

My daughter studies Cognitive Neuropsychology in Autism. She evaluates children based on their EEG's and their FMRI's and makes recommendations for type of therapy. All the parents are freaked out obviously, but understanding the disorder is part of the cure.  

 
 
 
MrFrost
6.1.6  MrFrost  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.4    2 weeks ago
Leeches are still used following some surgeries to prevent blood clots and remove excess blood from engorged tissue.  Bloodletting is not commonly used, but is the treatment of choice for hemochromatosis.  And electroshock therapy has been shown useful for patients whose depression is resistant to treatment with medications.

Lets not forget maggots as well, as they will only eat dead flesh, they can be used in open wounds to keep the wound clean. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.7  Gordy327  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.3    one week ago

There is no scientifically established link between vaccines and autism. Sich claims are based on ignorance and fear, with no scientific, empirical backing. Vaccines are proven to be generally effective and safe. If people are not vaccinated, then that puts others at increased risk through the loss of herd immunity. Not vaccinating oneself or kids just stupid and irresponsible. 

Leeche's are still used in certain medical therapies. Medical therapies are scientifically researched and evaluated before general use. So it seems you're wrong on all points. Care to try again?

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.8  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.7    one week ago
There is no scientifically established link between vaccines and autism.

Says who?  The research sponsored by the Pharmaceutical companies selling vaccines? Sorry, but this argument is as bad as the ongoing Climate Change one where we've got people with vested interests promoting their chosen studies that promulgate their stances while totally ignoring any counter arguments/studies.  Meanwhile the evidence flies in the face of their stance, and yet they insist that they are correct. There are indeed scientific studies that contradict what we are being told by Big Pharma , so I can't say that I blame a mother for not wanting to take the risk especially considering these facts:

 The increase in autism cases in the last three decades is truly shocking. Before the 1980s, autism was so rare, it was not even tracked. Remember the eye-opening movie RainMan with Dustin Hoffman? Before that movie came out in the early 1980s, many had no idea what autism was. At that time, statistics put the rate of autism at 1 in every 8,000 children. By the mid-1990s, it was around 1 in 1000 children, but by the mid-2000s, it had risen to 1 in 250. The epidemic has continued and in 2017, the US National Center for Health Statistics just released the latest rate: 1 in every 36 children now have autism ( link to report here ). These skyrocketing rates clearly prove there is a true epidemic of autism in the United States.

So if a parent decides they don't want to take a 1 in 36 chance on their child NOT getting autism because the odds are really bad ( hell, you've got about the same odds as hitting your number on a roulette table and I actually do quite often ), then I guess I have to agree with them that it is their RIGHT to gamble or not on vaccinating their kids.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.9  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.4    one week ago
You may want to look for more neutral sources to avoid confirmation bias.

So might you. Check the funding for the studies that say vaccines are safe, and for every one you find that is "clean" of special interests, I'll match you with others that are also "clean" that claim the opposite is true.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.10  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.4    one week ago
Leeches are still used following some surgeries to prevent blood clots and remove excess blood from engorged tissue.  Bloodletting is not commonly used, but is the treatment of choice for hemochromatosis.  And electroshock therapy has been shown useful for patients whose depression is resistant to treatment with medications. Not bullshit.

Sure, but I don't think we'll be doing any leeching or bloodletting for migraines these days.  Do you?

Or was the point I was making not clear enough???

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.11  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1.5    one week ago
And there has been no causative link established between vaccines and autism.  Correlation is not causation. 
And there is a reason for that.

Which is what exactly? You digressed without explaining the reason. From what I am seeing, it makes sense in more than just the correlation, but also in what people ascribe to causing autism; High Fever. This is one of the results of receiving the MMR vaccine and while studies saying vaccine are safe are done in the short term, as you daughter points out, autism can and does develop later in childhood. Where are the long-term studies by Big Pharma?  There aren't any that I am aware of.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.12  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.10    one week ago
Sure, but I don't think we'll be doing any leeching or bloodletting for migraines these days.  Do you?

No, and that's why I clarified that those are NOT modern uses, and were not subjected to scientific verification of their efficacy.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.13  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.8    one week ago

You post a quote saying that there is a higher incidence of autism, and then just expect us to accept that it's due to vaccination?

It doesn't work that way.

In your comment to Perrie, you blame autism on the high fevers occasionally caused by the MMR vaccine.  Know what else causes high fevers?  Measles.  Mumps.  And rubella.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.14  Gordy327  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.8    one week ago
Says who? 

The National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) for starters.

 so I can't say that I blame a mother for not wanting to take the risk especially considering these facts:

That does not show any correlation between vaccines and autism, much less imply vaccines are to blame for autism. The increase in autism rates is more likely due to there being more children than decades ago and that autism is better recognized and diagnosed more often.

So if a parent decides they don't want to take a 1 in 36 chance on their child NOT getting autism because the odds are really bad

Since there's no link between autism and vaccines, there's no bet. But there is a link between vaccines and the prevention of diseases, some of which can be deadly. Would you prefer to place a bet on that?

Sure, but I don't think we'll be doing any leeching or bloodletting for migraines these days.  

Medications will help with migraines. Or would you or others prefer to suffer  and not take meds since migraine meds come from "Big Pharma?"

Which is what exactly? 

Which means there is nothing to suggest vaccines cause autism. Sandy was  quite clear on that point.

but also in what people ascribe to causing autism; High Fever. This is one of the results of receiving the MMR vaccine 

An infection will cause a fever. Vaccines may do that as well as a side effect. In either case, the body's immune response is being activated. Fevers are a result of that.

and while studies saying vaccine are safe are done in the short term, as you daughter points out, autism can and does develop later in childhood.

And no credible study shows vaccines being a cause of autism over the long term either. Besides, vaccines do not remain in the body indefinitely. They merely prime the body's immune system to fight of a viral infection when it occurs. Seriously, your whole diatribe against vaccines seems more based on fear, ignorance, and paranoia than on any actual research and understanding. But then, I expect that to be the case of most or all anti-vaccers.

 ignoring any counter arguments/studies.

A credible counter argument needs to have objective, empirical, peer reviewed evidence and research. Simply saying X causes Y is meaningless. 

I'll match you with others that are also "clean" that claim the opposite is true. 

Go right ahead. Let's see how long it takes to point out the flaws in such studies.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
6.1.15  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  MrFrost @6.1.6    one week ago

Maggots are very useful with burn patients.  As a former burn nurse, maggots are preferable and far less painful than debriding in a Hubbard Tank.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.16  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.14    one week ago
A credible counter argument needs to have objective, empirical, peer reviewed evidence and research.

Did you look at the provided links and from whence these research papers were published?  Probably not or you would have realized they were published in some of the same places those gospel studies you are clinging to were also published! Same peers.

The increase in autism rates is more likely due to there being more children than decades ago

WRONG!   When they discuss rates they do it "per" child being born which means that it doesn't matter if the quantity born is 10 and 1 in 10 are getting it meaning 10% of births, or if if  the number is 100 and 10 are getting it, it still comes down to 10%.

Here, I'll offer all of you that disagree with me an opportunity to literally put your money where your mouth is:

I will take ALL of the money from the loser of this bet and divide it evenly between ALL of the winners. There will be a limit  total of 36 bettors.  Only ONE of you will lose everything they own, and the rest of you get to keep your money and 1/35 of someone elses!

Sign up below and with this many witnesses, it is bound to be legal to collect somewhere on it from the loser--chosen at random by me of course, using whatever method I deem appropriate at the time... ;)

You have just as much chance of losing everything as a newborn's mother does, so this should be an easy decision for all of you to make. Just make the bet. It will be fine...for 35 of you anyway! One of you though will be facing financial ruin, but that is better than knowing that it was your decision, knowing the statistics, that permanently damaged your child's life isn't it???

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.17  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.14    one week ago
Go right ahead. Let's see how long it takes to point out the flaws in such studies.

I've already provided some. Care to disprove them by showing their flaws???

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.18  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.16    one week ago

Posturing is not evidence.

Again, you are pointing to an increase in the rate of autism, and just assuming that it's due to vaccination, and expecting us to just accept your assumption as fact, and doubling down on it with meaningless wagers when we don't.

The vehemence of your belief is irrelevant.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.19  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.14    one week ago
Seriously, your whole diatribe against vaccines seems more based on fear, ignorance, and paranoia than on any actual research and understanding. But then, I expect that to be the case of most or all anti-vaccers.

Problem with your dumbass theory is that I am NOT an anti-vaxer. My kids got theirs as scheduled. What I am though, is PRO-CHOICE for the parents who have that decision to make. Unlike most people, I actually was very well versed on both sides of the debate back in the early 2000's when my latest two children were born, so I actually thought long and hard before consenting. I also knew that there were and are legitimate studies on BOTH sides of the debate conducted by University's that were polar opposites in their findings, and yet I took the gamble knowing that in so doing, I might be condemning my children to a life of diminished mental capacity--or even DEATH!  That was MY call to make--NOT YOURS!

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.20  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.18    one week ago
and just assuming that it's due to vaccination

No, I'm taking into account WHO makes the vaccines, WHO funds the research on the effectiveness and safety of them, and WHAT they contain, WHAT are the known reactions to the ingriedents, and HOW MANY children are developing autism and at WHAT rate and to tell the truth, I don't trust Big Pharma any more than I trust lawyers or politicians...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.21  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.20    one week ago

Paranoia also isn't evidence.

Quite a few of your studies blame thimerasol.  What's their (and your) explanation for the increased rates of autism after the exclusion of thimerasol from childhood vaccines?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.22  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.19    one week ago
dumbass theory

Nice.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.23  Gordy327  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.22    one week ago

Stay classy, right? LOL

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.24  Gordy327  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.19    one week ago

I didn't say you yourself were anti-vaccer. Only that your tone and arguments against vaccines follow anti-vaccer mentality. Regardless, no doubt studies have been done regarding the safety of vaccines. As I said, there are no credible studies linking vaccines to autism. And I maintain that parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids due to ignorance or fear are not only being irresponsible and bad parents, but they are putting their kids and other kids at risk.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.25  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.18    one week ago
doubling down on it with meaningless wagers

Soooo, a mother of a newborn knowing that 1 in 36 babies who gets vaccinated develops autism should ignore those "meaningless" statistics? 

You know the best part of this whole discussion is that everyone has the opportunity of availing themselves of provided resources from both sides of the argument. What is saddening is when you see intelligent people close their minds to anything that does not conform to their preconceived notions. I am firmly "Pro-Choice" on the whole vaccination issue for the same reason I am an Agnostic on religion--the jury is till out on which side is right! In light of that, I say it is every parents decision to make, and the rest of us need to STFU about it,or is pro-choice only applicable when it comes to abortion???

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.26  Gordy327  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.20    one week ago

Your paranoia aside, there are plenty of studies not conducted by pharmaceutical companies which show vaccines are generally safe. All vaccines (and medications in general) must also be approved by the FDA before being made available. And considering  long vaccines have been in use for various diseases and how much disease rates and childhood morbidity and mortality have declined over the decades, it seems vaccines are safe and beneficial and the numbers appear to back that up.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
6.1.27  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.19    one week ago
What I am though, is PRO-CHOICE

That's good to hear. I'm also pro-choice. However, if some parents make the choice to not immunize their children, then they should keep them home, don't take them out in public and home school them.

If they choose not to get vaccinated and then go into public places with other children and babies they are taking away those other parents "choice" to live, go to school and work in a safer immunized environment. If the herd immunity drops below 90% these diseases people thought virtually eliminated could outbreak leading to tens of thousands of fatalities, mostly among the very young or very old.

So yes, I believe people should have the choice to cut themselves off from society and risk their own lives or those of their children by ignorantly refusing to get vaccinated. But I also believe every local government or State has the right to pass laws that require immunization if someone wants to use the public school system or other public areas like malls, workplaces and hospitals.

I get that you don't trust big pharma, I don't either, they are currently far more motived by profit than results. However, because they are so interested in profits, they know that drugs used so widely as vaccines have to be made as safely as possible to avoid some actual concrete evidence of a link to some autism or other malady. Are there kids who have had adverse reactions to the vaccines? Yes. There are some kids born allergic to air, it's no wonder some are going to be allergic or had bad reactions to some of the vaccine ingredients. However, study's have shown that the number that do have adverse reactions is extremely small.

The supposed causal link between vaccines and autism is much like the supposed link between heroin and marijuana. Some morons claimed marijuana must be a gateway drug to heroin because most heroin users admitted they had used marijuana, yet there is zero proof of any causality. People who were more likely to use heroin were also more likely to drink and smoke cigarettes, they were people looking for substances to abuse, which is why there were millions and millions of marijuana users who have used marijuana but never even tried heroin.

Most of the kids diagnosed with autism were vaccinated, because most kids get vaccinated, not because vaccination causes autism.

Boys are 4 times more likely to be diagnosed with autism. I'm pretty sure all those boys have penises, does that mean penises increase the risk of autism? In fact, the majority of boys in the US get circumcised, has anyone studied whether more circumcised children get autism than not? It's as likely a cause as vaccines, perhaps even more likely since we can show boys having a 4 times higher risk, there are no such numbers for vaccinated children. Or perhaps wearing pants instead of dresses? Maybe that's the "causal" effect. A parent making their sons wear dresses to avoid any chance pants might be making kids autistic is just as idiotic as a parent refusing to get their child vaccinated for the same reason.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/autism-facts-and-figures

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.28  Gordy327  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.25    one week ago

It's rather funny how you complain about people not hearing both sides of the issues, while you yourself have not produced any credible, peer reviewed studies to back up your insinuations of vaccines causing autism. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.29  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.24    one week ago
I maintain that parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids due to ignorance or fear are not only being irresponsible and bad parents, but they are putting their kids and other kids at risk

Well basing  my understanding of your views on what you say here, then any parent who doesn't kill their child before it causes harm to society in some fashion is a bad parent. I suppose they should all have ESP that tells them whether or not their kid will catch the mumps, or grow up to be a drunk driver, or go psycho and shoot up a school, or become a drug dealer.   Sorry, but I can't support your demand for forcing people to put their children at risk so that there is less chance that yours vaccine immune child will be better off. Why not just demand that everyone live in bubbles ? On the other hand, maybe you could spare a moment and look at alternative studies that show that vaccinating your children actually make them MORE susceptible to other health problems .

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.30  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.28    one week ago
you yourself have not produced any credible, peer reviewed studies to back up your insinuations of vaccines causing autism

Yes I have. Try clicking the links provided. Maybe even do a little research for yourself on the oppositions arguments.  Who knows, maybe you will wind up like me deciding that it is the parents choice, not mine--or yours--to make.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.31  sandy-2021492  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.26    one week ago
1 in 36 babies

Only vaccinated ones?

Um, no.

It's one in 36 babies, total.

What is saddening is when you see intelligent people close their minds to anything that does not conform to their preconceived notions.

Our minds are open to evidence.  That has not been presented.  Assumptions are not evidence - not the assumption that the increase in autism is caused by vaccination, nor even that the increased diagnosis of autism is a true picture of its actual prevalence.  Autism is better understood and diagnosed than it was even just a few decades ago.  Assumption that vaccines are to blame ignore factors which have been shown to contribute to autism - advanced parental age, for example, and preterm birth (more preterm infants are surviving, and the conditions surrounding their births have lasting effects).

Ingredients in vaccines are proposed as "the cause for autism", and even when those ingredients are removed from vaccines, some folks can't let that pet hypothesis go.  "It's the thimerasol!"  Then removing thimerasol should have led to decreased prevalence of autism, right?  But it didn't.  But it's still gotta be the vaccines, right?

Preconceived notions, indeed.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.32  Gordy327  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.31    one week ago

Sandy, I think your reply is for Kane, not me.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.33  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @6.1.27    one week ago
However, if some parents make the choice to not immunize their children, then they should keep them home, don't take them out in public and home school them

I assume You feel the same way about parents who don't take their kids to the doctor when they get the sniffles too, right??? Better yet, let's keep those kids home who are kissing people and spreading Herpes Simplex IV. Apparently that is another avenue being "possibly" linked to autism so we better cover our bases!

SMH...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.34  sandy-2021492  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.32    one week ago

You're right.  Sorry about that.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.35  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.31    one week ago
That has not been presented. 

SEVERAL TIMES AND YOU HAVE YET TO READ THEM!

Seriously, had you bothered to follow the links provided in the articles and actually read the findings, who authored them, and what happens to those who challenge The Establishments mantra, you would probably be raising Hell on here instead of attacking me...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.36  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.29    one week ago
any parent who doesn't kill their child before it causes harm to society in some fashion is a bad parent.

Ridiculous hyperbole.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.37  Gordy327  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.34    one week ago

No worries 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.38  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.32    one week ago
Sandy, I think your reply is for Kane, not me.

It was, lol! We all knew who she meant, :)

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.39  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.22    one week ago
dumbass theory
Nice.

Maybe not nice, but definitely true as the conversation has shown...

Stay classy, right? LOL

Blue collar to the core; even if I wear white ones now, lol!

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.40  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.36    one week ago
Ridiculous hyperbole.

I agree, his comment was.

LOCK THEM UP! GET YOUR TORCHES! GRAB SOME ROPES! THEY"RE NOT VACCINATED!!!!

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.41  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.35    one week ago

How many of them focused on thimerasol?  I have already explained why that's not convincing.

Some contained assertions that we are simply expected to accept (sounds familiar).  Some contained fearmongering - much explanation of the theory regarding why the author thought vaccines were to blame, and very little statistical evidence of that blame.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.42  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.40    one week ago

You're not helping your case by dishonestly misstating Gordy's position.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.43  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.42    6 days ago
You're not helping your case by dishonestly misstating Gordy's position.

Really?  Because didn't Gordy post:

they should keep them home, don't take them out in public
 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.44  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.41    6 days ago
How many of them focused on thimerasol?

Many, as well as some that focused on other ingredients. Believe it or not, I kind of agree with you that focusing on just the one ingredient thimerasol, is foolish because up until it was banned for OTC sales in the 1990's we used that all the time.  I bet every one of us here had some Merthiolate put on our scrapes as children, didn't we? No, something else is going on here. It may be the way the vaccines are being chemically combined themselves, or it may be that they are interacting with other common environmental agents. Just like moderate consumption of alcohol is normally not a problem nor taking pain medications as prescribed isn't either , mixing the two can cause death. This is where I personally believe we should be focusing the research. It is more than just the vaccines, but they are a part of the problem.

(Not wanting to go off-topic here, but wouldn't it be {fill in your own word here} if it turned out that the rise of autism due to vaccinations was because of the reduction of the antigens developed because of exposure to secondhand smoke? Or better yet, what if it turned out it was due to the increased use of marijuana??? These are actually a couple of the major environmental components that tracks the same timeline. Coincidental or causation??? Like I said above, it appears to be a combination of something in the environment in play here.)

This is why I decided to give my children the vaccinations. Because our family history of allergies is incredibly limited, I figured that an allergic reaction to them was a very limited chance. Apparently, I was right. They are all fine. But again, I MADE THE CHOICE concerning the well being of MY children. Again, this is my whole disagreement with forcing people to vaccinate. It isn't fear, or ignorance, or religion, or any other reason other than the Rights of the Parents.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.45  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.43    6 days ago

Not nearly the same as calling for torches and rope, as all here reading can see.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.46  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.29    6 days ago

Here's a statement in the article (not study) from your link:

Researchers discovered that 92 percent of the children requiring a tonsillectomy operation had received the measles vaccination, indicating that the vaccination for measles may have made some of the children more susceptible to tonsillitis.

Well, 100% of people who have ever breathed air have died.

They're asserting a causative link, when they only show a correlation.  I can show lots of correlations.  Measles vaccine (which nearly every child gets, and therefore, as any logical person could see, nearly every child requiring tonsillectomy will have had) and tonsillectomies.  Ice cream sales and drowning deaths.  Breathing and dying.

Are those causative relationships?

And the study?  Done by parent survey about problems with which they say their child has been diagnosed.  That's a lousy way to conduct medical research.  It has inherent bias, and includes questions about things like hay fever and GERD.  Kid sneezed on a windy day when the dust was being blown around?  Oh, no, kid has hay fever!  Must be the vaccines!  Kid has chronic scratchy throat and cough?  How many parents know that can indicate GERD, which the inherently weak (because it's done by survey) study asserts doesn't occur in unvaccinated children?  A survey also doesn't address the fact that kids who aren't vaccinated are less likely to have parents who seek medical care, and tend to diagnose their kids themselves, and seek medical advice from the Mercola crowd - like the mother in the article, who thought she could treat her kid by putting potatoes in his socks.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.47  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.45    6 days ago
Not nearly the same as calling for torches and rope

Maybe not to you, but to me it is. Banning them from public places? Logical next step is internment, and if that doesn't work: Eradication! Go ahead; try to deny it. It's done all the time in various ways. Unfortunately we have a human history full of it. So please save your umbrage for something more deserving than a sarcastic comment about locking up un-vaccinated children, because that is exactly what he is calling for with that comment. House Arrest!

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
6.1.48  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.47    6 days ago
House Arrest!

calls for another housing bailout?

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.49  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.46    6 days ago

And exactly how do you think medical research is done?  Strictly in laboratory testing?  Hardly. That would require 24 hour a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year observation. No, actually Medical Research depends a lot on surveys before beginning any sort of physical observation. They are used to narrow down causation. They are actually the first step in any medical diagnosis, or treatment, or studies. Matter of fact, you take one every time you see a new doctor. It's called the Medical History form they have you fill out. It is a survey of what is in your own history and that of your family tree. Right on down to the EMT hollering "Can you hear me" at the apparently unconscious victim. If they answer, the survey continues.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.50  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.49    6 days ago

I know how medical research is done.  And it is accepted among researchers that surveys, while they can provide valuable information, can also provide very poor information.  They are extremely subject to the biases of the participants.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.51  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.47    6 days ago
to me it is

That is just more evidence of a tendency toward hyperbole.  It would be better to debate what Gordy actually says, instead of a hyperbolic twisting of his words into what you choose to believe he's said.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.52  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.51    6 days ago
That is just more evidence of a tendency toward hyperbole.

Who? Me? A tendency to sarcastic exaggeration to make a point? Never!!!!...

SMH

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.53  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1.50    6 days ago
  And it is accepted among researchers that surveys, while they can provide valuable information, can also provide very poor information. 

Uhm, despite what I'm sure will be another attack upon the method used to convey the point, I believe I already covered that when I attached the link on surveys, their usefulness, and proper structuring. So again, the onus is on you to show the flaws in the surveys taken, peer reviewed, and published in those scientific journals.

Have at it.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.54  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.52    6 days ago

I'm packing up my computer for a very extended roadtrip so it may be awhile or even longer before I can continue this conversation. Just so there is no mistaking that I am willing to concede the point that started this conversation that it is okay to force parents to vaccinate their children. I emphatically object to that even though I myself have done so. They have a Right to choose what is best for their children until there is incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, and even then if it affects no one else but their children, it should not be forced upon them by government.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
6.1.55  sandy-2021492  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.53    6 days ago

The fact that it is a survey is a weakness.  That's the nature of research.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.56  Gordy327  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.43    6 days ago
Because didn't Gordy post: they should keep them home, don't take them out in public

Specify where I posted that.

LOCK THEM UP! GET YOUR TORCHES! GRAB SOME ROPES! THEY"RE NOT VACCINATED!!!!

Intentionally misquoting me is as good as lying.

On the other hand, maybe you could spare a moment and look at alternative studies 

What studies? Your link only goes to an anti-vaccer site (bias right there) which only has commentary and opinion (that's an actual disclaimer on the site too), but no actual studies cited. Actual studies should be from a credible source such as the CDC , The NIH , or at the very least, a source with cited scientific studies. 

 or any other reason other than the Rights of the Parents.

When parents jeopardize their children, and by extension, other children's health, then they should lose some of those "rights." An extreme example are Christian scientists who refuse all medical intervention for their children. There are legal cases where they let their children die of otherwise preventable and treatable illnesses and as a result, they were arrested and prosecuted. And rightfully so. It's child neglect.

 Banning them from public places?

Who wants to be exposed to contagions. Unvaccinated individuals put the population at risk. Look at the Coronavirus incident going on right now. A whole city is being quarantined to quell the outbreak lest more people become infected. When kids are sick at home with a fever, thay don't go to school. If they develop a fever at school, the school sends the kid home early. 

because that is exactly what he is calling for with that comment. House Arrest

See second statement.

It's called the Medical History form they have you fill out. It is a survey of what is in your own history and that of your family tree.

You do realize a medical history provides a doctor with information about your conditions so he can make informed decisions on how to best treat you, right?

 
 
 
charger 383
7  charger 383    2 weeks ago

What is going around so far this year is very nasty stuff.  I am almost over it and it started after Christmas. 4 Dr visits and had the flu shot.  

If the stuff from China gets here and starts, it is going to be bad and cases like this will make it worse

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
7.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  charger 383 @7    2 weeks ago

I talked to a neighbor this morning, and he said his wife had just gotten over the flu.  Tamiflu didn't seem to help.  She took it, but stayed sick for several weeks.  They both had their flu shots.  He never got the flu, fortunately.

 
 
 
MrFrost
7.1.1  MrFrost  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.1    2 weeks ago

Never have taken much for the flu when I do get it. Just sleep, fluids and Netflix. I know if I go to the doctor she will just tell me to get sleep, drink fluids and watch Netflix. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
7.1.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  MrFrost @7.1.1    2 weeks ago

Last time I had the flu was 1996.  My brother gave it to me for Christmas.  Not my favorite gift that year, I gotta say.  I coughed for weeks, well after the fever went away.  Tamiflu wasn't on the market then, so it was fluids, Nyquil, sleep, and cuddles with the cat.

Every year since then, I've had my flu shot, and I haven't had the flu since.

My son had the swine flu the year it was bad (2009, I think).  The vaccine wasn't available here before it spread through the schools.  He was sick all winter - swine flu, then bronchitis, strep, ear infections.  Poor kid.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
7.1.3  igknorantzrulz  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.1    2 weeks ago

i like the flu,

of my chimney when housing a cuckoo's nest,

as i know jack about jack, but it's never uplifting, unless a dull boy un sea

as my high dry drawl of a calic without a tong to stir  fluid in solid evidentary non introduced but known well over overwhelming odd evidence even when undiscovered by exploration parties searching for a search light without,

no in when to woo a coo coo ka chew toucan sam

son of, a rye sword, seeded in styrofoam petri dishes harboring sorrow dished out via scoops of paper

wrapped in a caution coned in silence to be hive like a have in to cell a braided phoney

static electricity currently shorting a story till a tall tail is pulled from the ball of yarn strung from string cheese cream weigh curdled everything bagel decorated with beagles bailing a row boat U could oar you   can, not till the knots are ripened in the vine seller storing ailmeant to be sold for sale with oreos to sink

in milk toast kitchen cabinets wove from Siamese catch up caught up  by the dogs of war

saw         a brightly colored only Polish joking in buffered zones of aspirins bottled in spring water fed from shoe polish on twenty penny nail clips to a pocket, protector of kangaroo courtship like eddy swirling

the oar splashing the irony that rusts, when a best friend chain smokes

the

links of sausage provided missing to prove to Patti, proof positive of negative fx not affecting the wurst that could be musterd by seeds sown to paper petri dishwashers with fabric fabricated from the cascading tear in out fits that don't, run two a turned cheek of roses checked by prix like grand  pianos played by organ donors on loan for the lease broke to seal deal bought by too many to believe scents so common, could be air nailed overnight like a bride made to order the court ship home while pigeons stool a cooing barred from the banned campfire extinguished by a vowel taken by a consonant constant sometimes summed up as a product of a damaged environment to spoil the 

sleep into the deep

cavernous halls of Mentho Lyptus tested and tried till failed after no acquitting now till then and again is always when

with a pen

written is wrought as Willy has to goat a kid to put him in a nelson N

harriot ,

mandala style, while fully Apart the hide seeking out by sought after 

thought

had relevance to a pointless point i regurgitate after a smoke

signal eye red about with a brown bark mark remembered for embers a glow like an inverted bow,to wow a red arrow shot from a gun without the scope to see breath breath dry, but straighter when drunk like a curve carrassed cautiously for turning

a U into a

sign

,

that a ewe joint effort did enlighten and turn, and it is good to release captive and pent 

thought of less than < a >  moron   that writes autobiography's for all,

but ones self

right out of line

while break dancing 

wolves

can't stop their pause from applauding the short hand bitten  while watched shy knees skinned for their dulled senses hid

while tagged by a musical chair that takes note

of

letters never written,

but duly unnoticed,

is the Finale before the Finale 

 
 
 
lady in black
7.2  lady in black  replied to  charger 383 @7    2 weeks ago

I was sick last week. 

On Wednesday at work I felt pressure behind my eyes and nose and knew I was fighting something. 

I left work early...came home, made homemade chicken soup, went to the store for dayquil and nyquil.

Woke up Thursday and called in sick.  I slept most of the day and at times my muscles and body ached, waking up briefly here and there to let my dog out.

Woke up Friday felt better but not enough to go to work.  

I never had a cough, stuffy nose, runny nose, fever or chills.

Don't know what I had.

 
 
 
pat wilson
7.2.1  pat wilson  replied to  lady in black @7.2    2 weeks ago
Don't know what I had.

What ever it was you fought it off. You bad-ass you !

 
 
 
TᵢG
8  TᵢG    one week ago
One recent post came from the mother of a 4-year-old Colorado boy who died from the flu this week. In it, she consulted group members while noting that she had declined to fill a prescription written by a doctor.

An example of anti-science thinking.    And it is evolution science which lies at the heart of our understanding of vaccines.   Yet we still have people stubbornly and ignorantly claiming that evolution is pseudoscience — a worldwide conspiracy by godless scientists.   The fact that people actually believe this nonsense is bad for society.   This is one anecdotal case in point.

 
 
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