This is painful to observe ... and I expect this to continue.   The general will be between two old white guys, neither of whom have a filter between brain and mouth.

What is wrong with our system when we are left with these as our only choices for PotUS?

TiG, I don't think it is the system. Certainly the system allows the opportunity for this to happen, but at the end of the day, the voters still have a say. I think the issue is highlighted by the congressional approval rating vs. retention. Last fall, the approval rating was less than 20%. Retention? I read an article suggesting that the most recent rate for retention was around 98%, and is historically in the 90s. 

With the exception of Trump, where are the choices coming from? Who is driving the bus? I would suggest its the same people more than 80% think are doing a poor job, but for some reason keep on sending to D.C. It's almost like the parents of the bad kid in school. Ignore, redirect, look beyond, etc., everything your child does, while blaming the other kids for your child's social issues at school. How do you end up with a guy that claims:

"From the very beginning, I have a shotgun, I have a 20 gage, a 12 gauge, my sons hunt. Guess what, you're not allowed to own any weapon."

Freudian slip? I don't know, that's an aside. But, anyone that claims Biden is all there is not being honest. Anyone that thinks the voting democrats would promote Joe from the beginning is not being honest. He is being propped up, again I think, by the same folks the wide majority of people think are doing a poor job. I don't know, keep sending them to D.C. though. 

Real problem is, IMO, integrity. Do you trash a good system, which I think we have, to address the issue of the lack if integrity of the various members?

TiG, I don't think it is the system.

I include the electorate as part of the system.   I am okay with the system as designed.   It is a good system that has been screwed up over time by people seeking advantage.

If the electorate (as you note) were to be more responsible, less apathetic, more informed then we could collectively demand better candidates and demand better behavior from our elected officials.   Sadly, that never happens and I see no sign that this is changing.

 The general will be between two old white guys

I believe you're wrong, the general will be between an old white guy and an old white woman.....HILLARY

Why would you think that?

Why would you think that?

Its called "HDS".

"Hillary Derangement Syndrome"

People who have it are obsessed with Hillary Clinton, and believe she has too much power. The actually believe Hillary is the main issue facing America today!

Some of them are sto incredably stupid that they don't They don't even realize she's no longer in office!

(Welcome to the Internet

Its called "HDS".

"Hillary Derangement Syndrome

Oh sure, like another NT member who's entire life centers around Trump I spend at least 20 hours a day looking for articles I can seed that are derogatory to Hillary and I write orginal articles about how shitty Hillary is at least 5 times every day lol.

"HDS"  no one will ever accuse you of having an orginal thought.

If this is what he thinks of potential constituents, then I would have serious doubts about even considering voting for someone like that!

Then you probably are left with Sanders (but he will not get the D nomination).    Both Biden and Trump have a problem looking down on voters.   I suspect Trump is much worse given he seems to hold himself superior to everyone (including those he hires and appoints) since nobody has his big brain.   Biden does not strike me as a narcissist;  he just does not have a very good filter between mind and mouth.

I am not happy with our choices (again).

I suspect Trump is much worse given he seems to hold himself superior to everyone (including those he hires and appoints)

That doesn't seem to be an issue with voters. They really don't mind Someone in Elected office, going all "Bad" on other elected "Officials".

Haven't heard Trump say that "American Citizens" are ……. "Inferior" !

Biden does not strike me as a narcissist;  he just does not have a very good filter between mind and mouth.

Bidens a "Waffler" in his rhetoric !

Trumps "Consistant" in his rhetoric !

Okay, time to get back to reality. Donald Trump consistently tries to shape reality to his perspective. Thus, he LIED on this virus and called it a ". . .democrat (sic) hoax!!!" The very next day, the first case DIED of a hoax— NOT! One could question if the leader of the country even knew we had our version of "patient zero" in the country!

Selecto.vision On, supporters of Trump run silent . . . , with their commentary when questioned about that rally, its reproducible video, and the facts of the matter.

Karma is irony. The stock market is old is new again. Just like 2017 all over! 'Ugly' does not pay! Being a shockingly crude and rude jerk for three years and breaking stuff for the effect has landed us back here:

It's been proven that a lot of gullible people believe Trump called the corona virus a hoax, a heavy dose of TDS helps them believe that B.S.

Gullible people you want? Okay try this "411."  NOTE: Please view the following with Selecto.vision Off.

@4.1.1

@4.1.2

I certainly hope not because I absolutely refuse to vote for Sanders more than I would Biden. Neither is acceptable to me

It does not look as though Sanders will get the nomination.   Looks pretty clear to be Biden vs. Trump.

Mathematically it would be a crazy tough haul for Sanders. Sanders doesn't see a favorable state primary until April. The numbers of young voters that favor Sanders just hasn't turned out like it did in 2016.

But, Biden is bringing out the Obama coalition.

Bidens a fucking idiot. 

An AR is NOT a machine gun. 

An AR is NOT an "assault rifle/weapon"

When are these idiots going to understand this?

Then talking down to possible voters?  I remember another candidate doing this.  She lost the election.

Jeremy,

Were AR's included in the assault rifle ban that we did have?

Btw, I am aware that it is a semi-automatic rifle, but it can be converted easily with a bump stock. 

I'm sure Jeremy will answer your question but something else you probably didn't catch about his screwed up comment.   It's AR-15 not AR-14.   There is a 14 but its a M-14 which is selective fire meaning the weapon can be switched from semi auto to full auto.   The civilian version of the M-14 is the M-1A and is semi auto only.

So Joe wasn't really close on much of anything in his comment.

To me the guy has clear anger issues.   I see some of my Dad (who has dementia) in Biden and i don't wish that on anyone let alone our next potential POTUS.

There's the Ruger Mini-14 which is a cool gun and can be fitted with different stocks and accessories to look either like a M-14 or similar to a AR-15. They have the mini-14 (.223) and mini-30 (7.62×39mm).

Yeah, i might be very familiar with that weapon.

And bumps stocks are already banned.  Not to mention a bump stock is only as good as the buffer spring.

Sparty,

I realize his mistake was the difference between was an AR v M rifle. 

And I am sorry, but I don't see anger management issues. I have seen worse outbreaks here on this site, LOL. And right now we have a president who holds grudges and can't talk about testing kits without bringing up his gripes. 

Bump stocks are only banned in a few states, and the quality of the bump stock is not the issue here. It is that these AR15 can be made to act like an automatic rifle.

It would be very interesting to see if a bump stock was made for the AR-14.  My understanding is that it was not a popular sport rifle.

Also, the Armalite 10 was also advertised as the AR 10-14 if it had the 14 inch barrel which some folks called

AR 14s in error.

So much confusion about guns that have been around since the 50's.

I stand corrected. This is very new.

I guess a year ago is new, when you are as old as I am.

Now, that is funny. 

And I am sorry, but I don't see anger management issues.

Well i clearly disagree there.   He spontaneously flew off the handle in a venue that is traditionally 100% friendly to Democrat politicians.   A place where he should have been absolutely comfortable.   Thats not normal IMO.   So either he has anger management issues or some underlying mental condition that can impede normal self control.   Like many forms of dementia can cause.

This is nothing new with Biden.   It appears to be happening more frequently.

I know this isn't optimal for those favoring a Dem for President but it is what it is.

Whoa .... took awhile to dig that justification up eh SP?

Youre correct.  Bump stocks arent the issue. That is a whole other pile of garbage. 

Several firearms can be altered to fire as an automatic.  But only ONE has peoples panties in a was - the AR 15.  All because its APPEARANCE is that of the M4.  A weapon restricted to certain groups.  

The actual issue is this blithering idiot that is in the running to be POTUS doesnt know the difference between a "machine gun" and an AR 15 talking down to voters.

So either he has anger management issues or some underlying mental condition that can impede normal self control.

He was being challenged.   He lost his cool.   I fault him for that because he is running for PotUS and it is critical that he remain composed.   If one cannot control one's temper, manage one's words in a coherent fashion, etc. in public on the campaign trail, some will consider that a problem with temperament and that is an important issue given the office he seeks.

But I certainly understand how it happened.  The guy is no doubt stressed and tired and after a while the crap of a campaign will wear on anyone.   Hell, look at what triggers people here on NT.   I do not personally see this as a psychological disorder;  seems like an extreme and unfair analysis.

We are likely to have a general choice between Biden and Trump.   My comment per this seed is that I am again underwhelmed with the choices we have for the most powerful office on the planet.   Seems to me the rest of the planet has every right to question the judgment of the USA electorate since out of 327 million people we cannot seem to nominate even an adequate candidate for the office.   Logically, we should be able to nominate a pillar of society like Eisenhower.    Seems to me our choices grow worse on each election cycle.

The internet is at your fingertips,

 My comment per this seed is that I am again underwhelmed with the choices we have for the most powerful office on the planet.   Seems to me the rest of the planet has every right to question the judgment of the USA electorate since out of 327 million people we cannot seem to nominate even an adequate candidate for the office. 

Tig, I want you to know that I take stock of your point in this comment thread. However, there were twenty plus "contestants" in the sweeps of democratic candidate for president, the process has come down to two men neither which are new to politics. Against another sitting "contestant" of a similar age all in their 70's. That says something about the voters taste and choices at this time. On both sides, the voters with deliberation, did what you see.

Let's keep that in the front of our minds.

Today, I emailed the Biden campaign about the cussing. Warning them also about getting hit with "lesser of two evils" charge, and reminding them about the higher standard Biden wants for himself: To restore decency in word and deed to the presidency. Now, not because of my writing, but hopefully I am one of many (a percentage) that have written or will write the Biden campaign similarly asking that in his efforts to fight "fire" not to use more fire, but a wider and heavier water hose!

On both sides, the voters with deliberation, did what you see.

They did.  That is the basis of my point.

The actual issue is this blithering idiot that is in the running to be POTUS doesnt know the difference between a "machine gun" and an AR 15 talking down to voters.

First of all, most people who don't own guns don't know the difference. Second, he used the word "machine gun", which is just vernacular, since I think Capone was the last to use it. We all know he meant semi or automatic weapons. And he lost his temper, that isn't talking down to voters. 

Look, Biden is not issue free, but neither is Trump, and I think that is the point that Tig is trying to make. 

Sparty,

He flew off because he was being confronted on something he has taken a position on and was being challenged in an unfriendly way. 

And yes this is nothing new for Biden. He might be doing it more because campaigning is very stressful. I am not going to play neurologist on his mental state. To me, he seems like the Biden we have always known.

I know this isn't optimal for those favoring a Dem for President but it is what it is.

Both Tig and I are indies. It's not so much that we are favoring a dem for Prez. There are no other choices and at least I like Biden better than Trump. He wouldn't have been my first choice and he isn't Bernie, who I couldn't vote for.

Look, Biden is not issue free, but neither is Trump, and I think that is the point that Tig is trying to make. 

Indeed.   We are now virtually done with the D nomination process and look what we have as the counter to Trump.   Biden is a good guy in stark comparison to Trump, but he is a far cry from what I personally consider to be presidential material.

Thus the question I offer is:   why is this the best we (the USA electorate) can do?

It is a no win situation for some.

If he didn't fight back he would have been called wishy washy and not able to handle confrontation. Fight back and be called unhinged and not stable.

He will be jumped on and attacked any way he goes.

The sad thing is, none of this is even about policy. It is all about trying to paint an unflattering picture.

He wouldn't have been my first choice and he isn't Bernie, who I couldn't vote for.

If Sanders had been the nominee, who were you going to vote for? 

If he didn't fight back he would have been called wishy washy and not able to handle confrontation.

Fighting back is perfect.   He should challenge his accusers.   It it the manner in which he did it that bothers me.

Take NT interactions as an example.   One can disagree with another in candid topical terms (pulling no punches) without getting personal, without stammering about visibly trying to collect thoughts, etc.   When I see people here engage in slimy debate tactics, deflect, strawman, invented allegations, make things personal, etc. I am less likely to take them seriously and more likely to interpret their response as uncontrolled emotion.   But if someone debates hard with candid, topical points, solid reasoning, etc.,  that makes me take their comments quite seriously (and carefully).

Joe should never, ever call someone names.   Never tell someone they are 'full of shit'.   Far better to say:  'I understand what you are saying, now listen, here is why I think you are mistaken'.   I would bet huge that his campaign advisers have already tried to impart that to him.

Look, Biden is not issue free, but neither is Trump

Look ma , "both sides...."

John, secretly we are all going to vote for Trump.   

You too will vote for Trump.   Resistance is futile.

Well when one is engaging in political analysis one will normally look at the factors on both sides.

Analysis is different from political activism and pure partisanship.

Thus the question I offer is:   why is this the best we (the USA electorate) can do?

I blame it on our election finance laws and our two party failure system.

Citizens United to Divide what they've effectively multiplied. Ridiculous monies purchasing candidates that answer to the money sources, as they have more influence than the constituents they are supposed to represent. 

If candidates don't tow the party line, left behind. See Bernie 2016 and 2020 ( Trump is the abomination and a weird exception) 

We need Election Finance Reform in my uneducated opinion.

Why are you replying to me when I am talking to Perrie? 

You are not having a private conversation with Perrie.   You are on a social forum where everyone is involved and can REPLY on any comment.

I have private conversations with myself all the time around here.

i don't understand me either !

None of us understand you iggy, that is part of your charm.

I get what you are saying. It just seems to me they are trying to get him into these gotcha moments, yet with his experience, he should be able to handle things on the fly.

I am just getting disillusioned and tired of all of them. Really cannot stand donald. Was not thrilled with the top three contenders on the other side. Most of congress sucks yet the idiots keep getting voted back in.

I didn't like how the primaries are done with delegates picking candidates or stopping primaries.

I want younger blood and just wish that people would stop with stupid rhetoric and vote for a decent person or decent position, not just a party.

Take Alabama for instance. Doug Jones is actually a decent man and pretty moderate, yet he will probably be voted out just because of a D next to his name. Hell donald is already calling him a 'socialist' Dem that will ruin the country.

Makes me think that the electorate is full of imbeciles that can only think as deep as a bumper sticker slogan.

Sorry. Didn't mean to stray to off topic. That was my rant for the day.   Haha

On topic, I just think it is kind of comical the feigned outrage from some about Biden calling someone a name when another one does it all the time. Biden has always had these little gaffs, has even been caught on mic before using cusswords. I guess I am just not surprised as it just seems par for the course for him.

I agree in general.

This is quintessential Biden and I too am not surprised.   My comment is that with ~three years of potential planning to put forth a candidate who will displace Trump, we get Joe Biden.   I have a hard time accepting the notion that this is really our (USA electorate's) top individual to counter Trump.   And of course, Biden is clearly not the best choice.   So, and this is the question,  why is he the nominee (to be)?

Biden will do fine, Tig. He comes up through the community and political ranks, plus he has White House and international experience. He is a friend to all people who can accept him as a man-as a leader. I did not know he was something of a cusser, but will keep an eye on it going forward. However, when it comes to the pool of contestants for president-he is what "pops" out of the bin. Do vote for him if he tops your list!

You're absolutely right. I just watched "The Five" (Fox News channel - Youtube) about it.  Of course, they only wanted to "bust caps" of humor about 'fuddy-duddy, Biden' while they can find absolutely nothing remotely funny about Donald Trump to fill five minutes of the show. Juan Williams made an argument for Biden. He clocks after the other have their "jokes." Here just it out for yourselves:

The Five' reacts to Biden swearing at Detroit voter during gun control fight

NOTE: Do take stock of the BS coming from NT conservatives who say they (and they along) are so-called, "free-thinkers" when you can distinctly make a case for word and emotion parroting emanating off Fox News into the mouths and spirits of its viewers.

No, we all most definitely are not! (Chuckles.)

Makes me think that the electorate is full of [it] that can only think as deep as a bumper sticker slogan

I'd second that! It is so frustrating to be in the world's leading country and still have these political and life paradoxes!

I have private conversations with myself all the time around here.

HA! A kindred soul! I do that all the time. And I often get on my nerves when I don't like the answers I give myself, or when I stray off topic and forget what the original topic was about.

We need Election Finance Reform in my uneducated opinion.

Indeed it is badly needed. And get rid of the EC.

Well said, Ender. 

We don't need to Amend the Constitution. Just revisit the 'Permanent Apportionment Act'. Here's an interesting article about it. 

dailykos

First of all, most people who don't own guns don't know the difference.

Then they should educate themselves.  We all know that won't happen, that would require that they do something.  

Second, he used the word "machine gun", which is just vernacular, since I think Capone was the last to use it. We all know he meant semi or automatic weapons. And he lost his temper, that isn't talking down to voters. 

I'm 47 years old.  Even as a kid, when I referred to a "machine gun" it was an actual machine gun.  I knew the difference.  And now with the internet it's even easier to find out what a machine gun is.  I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time Jackhole Joe make this "mistake".  And yes, he was talking down to voters and that little encounter more than likely resulted in those voter NOT voting for him.

Look, Biden is not issue free, but neither is Trump, and I think that is the point that Tig is trying to make.

The article is about Biden, not Trump.  But when Biden or any of the other morons from the Democrats are called out there are many here on NT that "circle the wagons" to protect their guy and all hell brakes loose. 

Typical. That gutfield or what ever his name is gets on my nerves. Can't stand him and his arrogance. He actually had the nerve to say donald doesn't attack single people only groups. I have to wonder if he is delusional or has never looked at donald's twitter.

The sad thing is, people probably believe him.

why is he the nominee

I find myself wondering why or how most of them get or are on capitol hill.

I was watching one day where the party delegates were going to pick their nom. I have to say it seemed like one of the dumbest things I have seen. All standing around then gathering in certain groups or camps with people walking around trying to get them to go to another camp, then counting the numbers in the camps...

The primary here was a low turn out, even though we have an open primary.

I think a big problem is a lot of the people that actually vote are not necessarily the ones one would want to vote and the ones one would want to vote do not.

I find myself wondering why or how most of them get or are on capitol hill.

I hear you.   Voter apathy and ignorance is likely a big part of it.   We keep sending these bozos back due to name recognition.   

People do believe him. It is the nature of humor to be biting, edgy, and with a kernel of truth. Definitely not delusional. Paid to do a job, Fox News style. Gotta love it that Juan Williams (been around 'fox-hole' forever) was there to offer some balance.

The actual issue is this blithering idiot that is in the running to be POTUS doesnt know the difference between a "machine gun" and an AR 15 talking down to voters.

I am pretty sure you are mistaken, because when Biden is asking about the "machine gun" he is simply asking is there a government allowance for the weapon; not any way form are fashion, talking about the two devices being the same type.  (Smile.)

Dennis, don't worry. Calm yourself and hope Trump masters coronavirus for the good of his nation!

What no Borg clip?

You can't use "Resistance is futile" and not use the Borg!

Lookit. You should be calm by now. It's been four days already! (How many 'take a walks' can one do in that many days?) Now about it: Can you say Trump lied again when he called the coronavirus a democratic 'hoax.' How many people are going to be sick and grave-yard dead republicans, conservatives, and fundamentalists when (if) this hoax (virus) is finally contained?

It is akin to someone having a discussion about first amendment free speech right and privilege not granting anybody a condition to yell, Fire!' in a crowded theater,  and a second amendment right and privilege to own a gun not granting anybody a condition to own a machine gun. This is what Mr. Biden redirected the discussion.

Right and they call Trump arrogant.

There is a difference between arrogance and ignorance.  

Trump is arrogant.

Biden is ignorant.   Which is far more dangerous.

Biden is neither ignorant nor arrogant.

tRump is all that and SO MUCH MORE

Biden is neither ignorant nor arrogant.

The man called an AR a "machine gun".  He's fucking ignorant.  No question about that.  I can't believe you would even try to defend that.  [Deleted]

There is a difference between arrogance and ignorance.  

Trump is arrogant.

Biden is ignorant.   Which is far more dangerous.

Wait a minute, are you seriously trying to claim that Trump is not ignorant?

I've seen it all now. 

Any fully automatic AR, or AR that is full auto capable, is, in fact, a machine gun and an assault weapon.

A very, very high percentage of the AR's are not fully automatic and therefore not machine guns

or assault weapons technically

but the parents and families of mass shooting victims involved with such rifles

really don't give a darn about the nuances and semantics.

Dead is dead.

We're all ignorant in one form or another.  I never claimed otherwise.  

In this instance your hero is the one showing his ignorance.

"Any fully automatic AR, or AR that is full auto capable, is, in fact, a machine gun and an assault weapon."

And these are ILLEGAL.  

"A very, very high percentage of the AR's are not fully automatic and therefore not machine guns

or assault weapons technically

but the parents and families of mass shooting victims involved with such rifles

really don't give a darn about the nuances and semantics.

Dead is dead."

Semi-automatic weapons are LEGAL.  Whether it's a 9MM or an AR-15 they are legal.  It's the APPEARANCE that people are pushing to scare people into submission that these are "bad".

The reality is, the firearm itself is NOT the problem.  It's the individual holding it that is the problem.  Bit nobody wants to address that issue.  It might involve somebody actually having to do something.  God f@cking forbid somebody have to do something aside from flap their lips.  

ANYTHING can be used as a weapon.  It's a matter of what the intent and ability of the person holding the object.

We watch Live PD several times a week and not a week goes by where they haven't pulled over someone

who has no license due to suspensions and the fuckers just keep driving

and driving badly enough to be repeatedly pulled over.

It might involve somebody actually having to do something. 

You mean doing something like universal background checks, mandatory waiting periods, red flag laws, age limits, mandatory firearms training and limits on magazine size? 

TONS of people are trying to do those things, where have you been?

You mean doing something like universal background checks, mandatory waiting periods, red flag laws, age limits, mandatory firearms training and limits on magazine size? 

TONS of people are trying to do those things, where have you been?

That's all good if you want to restrict the law abiding citizen.  What are you going to do about the real problem?  The asshole who obtains a firearm illegally and starts shooting?  Happens every day in in this country.  NOBODY has addressed that issue. 

How about the person who obtains his firearm legally?  Passess all the checks, waiting periods, red flag laws, age limits, training and has the proper magazines that has a breakdown?  It's happened.  NOBODY has addressed that issue.  

Where have YOU been?

NOBODY has addressed that issue.  

Red flag laws DO address that issue. 

BTW, as for 'law abiding citizens', there are all too many states what have little to no laws to abide. This allows people that would not be able to buy or even own a firearm in one state to buy a firearm in another. NO background check, no anything. 

Red flag laws DO address that issue. 

Ok.  Lets ASSUME they do address the issue.  With that assumption it shows they are UNEFFECTIVE.  Being that they ONLY restrict what the law abiding citizen has access to.  NOT the criminal aspect of it.  

It's funny that all these laws are in place and yet NOBODY offers any solution for taking the illegal firearms off the street.  

BTW, as for 'law abiding citizens', there are all too many states what have little to no laws to abide. This allows people that would not be able to buy or even own a firearm in one state to buy a firearm in another. NO background check, no anything. 

A background check isn't going to stop somebody from obtaining a firearm illegally.  No amount of legislation will stop that.  All it does is makes it harder for those obtaining a firearm legally.  The idea of "common sense gun law" is nothing more than a catch phrase to pacify people.  It doesn't do a goddamn thing.

With that assumption it shows they are UNEFFECTIVE. 

Since most red flags are new we'll have to wait to see whether they are as INEFFECTIVE as you claim. 

BTW, the vast majority of mass killings are perpetrated by people [men] who were 'law abiding citizens' before they started killing people. 

Really?   Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Yes, really XD. Pretending to be ignorant of the FACT that hundreds [maybe thousands]  of firearms are sold at gun shows every fucking weekend is no excuse. I've been to gun shows here in Indiana and most sellers don't even ask for an ID much less doing a background check or giving a shit whether they are selling to CRIMINALS or not. Just STOP. 

BTW, the vast majority of mass killings are perpetrated by people [men] who were 'law abiding citizens' before they started killing people. 

That should be an indication legislation won't work.  What will work is people paying attention to what is going on around them.  But that would mean they would have to put down their phone and actually interact with their environment and people.  God forbid that happen. 

It's much easier to blame the weapon used instead of the person wielding it.  Hence much of the useless laws we have.

That should be an indication legislation won't work. 

How does it indicate that? 

BTW, many of the people [men] who perpetrate mass killings were also known to have mental health issues and red flag laws could be used to disarm them and or deny them access to firearms. 

Some of these folks have heard the term "gun show loophole" so often that they believe it. Of course it is ridiculous. Sure--a major company running gun shows only wants unlicensed "dealers" there to sell two guns or so--instead of a licensed dealer with perhaps dozens of weapons and access to many more. I am sure those "dealers" that are unlicensed are paying big bucks to be there!

How does it indicate that?

I guess it's crayon time.  In your statement you stated that " the vast majority of mass killings are perpetrated by people [men] who were 'law abiding citizens' before they started killing people."  

The fact that it is law abiding citizens who have a significant emotional event and snap and commit these shooting reflects that the person HAS met all the requirements to legally obtain a weapon but still shot somebody.  Hence, the legislation is a FAILURE.

You can pass all the laws you want.  Until people pull their heads from their 4th point of contact and start paying attention to what is going on around them and get to know others, the problem will persist.  The only way this can be slowed or stopped is for people to know their environment to a point they can see somebody having problems and intervening.  .  

The fact that it is law abiding citizens who have a significant emotional event and snap and commit these shooting reflects that the person HAS met all the requirements to legally obtain a weapon but still shot somebody.  Hence, the legislation is a FAILURE.

You erroneously assuming that the mass killing was the FIRST time that they showed emotional instability or the first time that they came in contact with LEOs. For most of them it isn't. The FBI IG just released a report that acknowledged that they let all too many people slip through the cracks who later threatened or actually committed violence on others. One of them was the asshole who murdered all of those people at Pulse in Orlando. 

THAT isn't a failure in the legislation, THAT is a failure in our law enforcement agencies. Giving them MORE tools to deny or take away firearms from those people can only be a good thing. 

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Here in NWI, there are half dozen gun shows just about every weekend. People meet in the parking lots and sell right out of their trunks. Sellers walk around carrying guns with price tags, cash changes hands, DONE. It goes on all day. My buddies in Terra Haute and Lafayette tell me that it's much the same there. The guy that owns my local gun shop goes almost every weekend and his son gets a table and sells to ANYONE. He's still looking for a nice 20/22 over under for me. 

I am sure those "dealers" that are unlicensed are paying big bucks to be there!

You are wrong. $45 for a 8 foot table isn't big bucks Tex. 

An AR is NOT a machine gun. 

An AR is NOT an "assault rifle/weapon"

When are these idiots going to understand this?

First of all, the language changes to accommodate actual usage. This is why ‘literally’ can now be used in place of ‘figuratively’. The Merriam Webster definition of an assault rifle includes:

a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire

and the Dictionary.com definition includes:

a nonmilitary weapon modeled on the military assault rifle, usually modified to allow only semiautomatic fire.

You can stop fussing about the your definition because common usage has passed you by.

Secondly, in the situations where this weapon is [mis]used, like school shootings, its form permits maximum carnage. A fully automatic version would dump the mag in about 2 seconds, even using select fire would be a waste. The average user of an assault rifle can dump a mag in 20 seconds, this includes the time to swap in a new mag. So that’s 30 rounds with time to aim between discharges. Its short rifle form allows two-handed operation that maximizes accuracy which maximizes kills. With the average user able to fire two rounds per second, it is, for all practical purposes, a machine gun. Fully automatic mode and devices like bump stocks are just ways to waste ammo.

The high speed of the bullet results in a lead cloud after impact which liquifies people’s organs. There is generally nothing for surgeons to repair, this is a gun designed to kill the maximum number of people in the minimum amount of time. These attributes are what also makes it a lot of fun to shoot. I own one. I, and my friends, realize that it is not reasonable for us to have access to these weapons. We don’t need them, they are toys that I would readily give up to save our kids.

A fully automatic version would dump the mag in about 2 seconds,

You don't know much about automatic weapons do you?

The average user of an assault rifle can dump a mag in 20 seconds, this includes the time to swap in a new mag.

This indicates a trained shooter.  Many 18B's can't do that.

So that’s 30 rounds with time to aim between discharges. Its short rifle form allows two-handed operation that maximizes accuracy which maximizes kills. With the average user able to fire two rounds per second, it is, for all practical purposes, a machine gun.

Again, you lack of knowledge of how weapons operate is showing.  According to this statement a 9MM Baretta is a "machine gun" and an "assault weapon".  But yet, I don't hear the same outrage for all semi-automatic weapons.

As far as your "2 round per second" theory, that is very easy to do with any semi-automatic weapon.  If the person firing the weapon is even remotely trained in marksmanship, it can be done and done accurately. 

A fully automatic version would dump the mag in about 2 seconds, You don't know much about automatic weapons do you?

Depending on model, rate is 600-800/minute, so 2-3 secs.

The average user of an assault rifle can dump a mag in 20 seconds, this includes the time to swap in a new mag. This indicates a trained shooter.  Many 18B's can't do that.

The instances where these are misused, targets are 10-20' away and close together. Try firing at 1 second intervals at that distance. A second is a long, long time. In the Tueller Drills, police found that an attacker 21' away could get to a cop in 1.5 seconds. I can't see any problem for a user with experience hitting a person sized target at those distances.

Again, you lack of knowledge of how weapons operate is showing.  According to this statement a 9MM Baretta is a "machine gun" and an "assault weapon".  But yet, I don't hear the same outrage for all semi-automatic weapons.

I never said that a civilian AR was a machine gun, only that for all practical purposes it was as deadly. "Assault Rifle" has a defintion that a HANDgun does not meet. A Berreta M9 doesn't give you the leverage to control rapid fire like an AR. It also doesn't have the mag capacity. (Also, knowing how to spell Berretta might have helped your case.)

Depending on model, rate is 600-800/minute, so 2-3 secs.

Any weapon with the capacity to do that is called a MACHINE GUN.  An M4 has the cyclic rate of 700 RPM.  Because the weapon is magazine fed, the only way it could reach that would be to alter it significantly making it ILLEGAL.

The instances where these are misused, targets are 10-20' away and close together.

Instances of this happening are extremely exaggerated.  That many round from a "can of ammo" in that short of time (to include magazine changes) just won't happen even if you were firing what the US Army would consider an Automatic weapon, which is illegal to own without special permits.  

Any weapon with the capacity to do that is called a MACHINE GUN.

If you read what I posted, you'll see that I am talking about rate of fire. You are talking about capacity.

Really?   I can run two 19 round mags in under twenty seconds through my XDm9mm.   Oh, did you see that mag capacity?  19 in the mag, one in the chamber means I walk around with twenty on my hip if I want.

So then my average user of an AR fire rate is whole heartedly seconded by you. But, you should read what I posted. I would guaranty that you are far more accurate with an AR at that rate of fire. And, you would definitely have 50% more capacity.

Yeah, like others noted, you don't know much about guns in general.  You only spew talking points you're been spoon fed.

You should try to refute the arguments rather than attempt to insult me.

I've owned guns for 50+ years. I am writing from my actual experience. What you so obviously need to be true about me simply isn't. I'm an enthusiast who can see that gun abuse can be significantly diminished. I am unafraid of having people examine the problem of gun violence. I care, you should try to do so too.

Because we didn't have ideologues preventing us from making driving safer, we were able to change vehicles (seat belts, radial tires, anti-lock brakes, vehicle stability,...), we were able to change people (drunk driving campaigns, aggressive driving,...), and, we were able to change the environment (better signage, acceleration/deceleration lanes, ...). I believe we now drive 5 times as much as when we started this effort, and we have half the fatalities. We are an ingenious people, we can do the same for gun violence. Stop being so terrified of letting experts research the problem. You'll get to keep your Springfield.

Word usage does not note legal definitions.  And here's a hint.  There is no legal definition of the MADE UP TERM "Assault Weapon".   You claim to be a 50 year expert on guns.  So, note specifically what is the difference between a Springfield M1A wood or polymer stock semi automatic firearm and a Springfield Arch Angel semi automatic firearm, other than APPEARANCE.  Better yet, explain the DIFFERENCE between a civilian model AR-15 semi-automatic rifle and a military M-16 or current M-4.

All irrelevant noise. I have been using the term "assault rifle", which does have a definition. Assault weapon is too general; wouldn't even have to be a gun.

I have no idea what a "high speed bullet" is. 

Typical semi-automatic handguns have a bullet speed around 1100 fps, 5.56 & .223 are around 3200 fps. ER doctors have become extremely good at repairing gunshot wounds, survival rate is much higher now than it was 20 years ago. This is mostly due to the wounds being made by handguns, and the tremendous amount of experience they unfortunately get. Those same doctors will tell that the wound channels made with 3200 fps bullets are much less likely repairable because there's so much damage.

Then SURRENDER YOURS.  Just don't ask me to surrender mine. 

Ignorance. Surrendering mine would be a meaningless gesture. Like the call by conservatives to have billionaires who think they should pay more taxes donate extra money. I showed in another thread how this behavior is simply stupid.

PS:  ANYONE that calls ANY firearm a TOY is a ___________________!!  (Fill in the blank yourself.  I'd be banned for life if I posted what I think of you and your TOYS!)

Guns are an atavism. Gun ownership peaked in the 70s at about 47% of households. It declined to 31% by 2014. People own them because they like to hunt, or target shoot. I have never used a gun defensively, I don't know anyone other that police friends or vets who has. My sports car is a toy, my second home is a toy. I don't need either of these things, but I enjoy having them. The guns are no different. From your reaction, I would say that guns are intrinsic to your manhood. Perhaps I should have realized that since you screen name is a gun. For me, they're just something I own. When I call a gun a toy, you react as if I am calling you a child. I'm not. They are not necessary in modernity, in fact, every other western industrialized nation restricts them tremendously and their people are far safer because of that.

In order to reach the rate of fire, you would have to keep the capacity in mind.  

instagram

Driving a Volkswagon modified with one of the kit car packages available years ago to look like a Cobra429, did not make the Volkswagon a Cobra.

There are cheap versions of the AR, so yes, they won't be the same level of quality as a military version. That problem is solved with money. For mine, I couldn't find any difference other than the lack of an auto sear and its support in the receiver. It seems to have perfect reliability, and the piston operation keep the bolt area so clean.

Then tell that to all the men I previously worked with that have the scars to prove otherwise

The fact that they were reparable does not falsify my statement. The ER doctors are saying repair is lot less likely with 5.56/.223.

Tough shit.  Put up or shut up.  In other words put YOUR money where your mouth is.

I 'put up' by voting for people who propose banning AR style weapons, who propose limiting mag capacities to 10-15, and who propose putting in place tough gun acquisition laws like NJ's or Ca's across the country. You'll have to excuse me if I don't do something meaningless to please you.

Adults have a better appreciation of what guns are.  And they are NOT TOYS.

Perhaps because I live in a state that does not permit carry, and have never known anyone to use one for defense I see guns as just for sport. I do see them as necessary tools for LEOs. I just don't see the majority of owners needing them.

But my real problem with your nonsense is that when Newtown happened, we did nothing and I realized there is simply no level of horror that we will not tolerate to maintain the current level of access to guns. It’s great that you protected two people. It’s not so great that 10s of thousands are cannot be so protected every year. We ‘adults’ are failing our kids and they know it.

Here in NJ, 80% of weapons recovered at crime scenes are traced to out-of-state sources. In neighboring Pa, virtually all guns recovered come from in state. Obviously, we can do something to prevent a huge percentage of guns from getting into the hands of criminals.

I pointed out that we have machines and they cause problems. The auto is one of these. We decided that the fatality rate was to high, so we said what can we do about the machine, what can we do about the people who use these machines, what can we do about the environment in which these machines are used. We took action in all three areas and dropped the fatality rate an order of magnitude.

I suggested the same path for another machine, the gun. Your response is to become enraged and name call. The gun is not simply another tool to you. You behave the way Middle-eastern Muslims behave when someone speaks ill of the Prophet. It is irrational, and worse than useless because it prohibits us from acting as we did with cars. Americans are ingenious, ingenuity is a major export. Stopping throwing a tantrum like a child, and let the adults solve the problem.

Don't you dare tell me what is or is not necessary.  You have no idea of my situation nor circumstances.

In that case you can argue that you have freedom of speech to exercise a right to yell, "Fire," in a crowded theater. And, carry a loaded gun into the Supreme Court of the United States. (You can do neither.)

Making a comparison to black people emotionally oppressed and stigmatized in society, to your ability to own and carry any gun a gun company can manufacture is an invalid category mistake.

In that case you can argue that you have freedom of speech to exercise a right to yell, "Fire," in a crowded theater.

Nope. laws against that..................

And, carry a loaded gun into the Supreme Court of the United States. (You can do neither.)

Law against that (and besides, the fact that there isn't broad brush open carry)

Making a comparison to black people emotionally oppressed and stigmatized in society, to your ability to own and carry any gun a gun company can manufacture is an invalid category mistake.

Rights are rights pal. It was a comparison of RIGHTS. Criminal activity is criminal activity. Go ahead and do what you "proposed" and be sure to ask for internet rights so that you can keep all of us members here updated on your status in prison.

Epic fail................................................I know. But FEELINGS.

It was a comparison of RIGHTS.

Yeah, do tell Rosa Parks about her rights, plural, after she was arrested, removed from her "right" seat in the front of the bus, and jailed over a White man's right to protest and get a lawful resolution to the space she occupied! Oh,. . .that all.

"Rights are rights, pal." Except when they are one-way for selective people and groups,  are abused by authority figures, and are outright ignored or omitted by the same. 

Rosa Parks existed and operated under a different set of oppressive laws denying her rights white men gave themselves lavishly at the time. There is no comparison to a white man wielding guns at will in the present and Rosa Parks.

Next is right. I have no idea why you bothered writing this.

Still no idea why you are bothering to write me about this. Your comment is detached from our share history.

XD’s comments are not the detached thing in this conversation.

Prove it.

It gets proven here nearly every day and it cra-cra

That comment is an opinion - not proof.

The proof is on display here regularly.    Any thinking person, with a modicum reading comprehension can find it if they happen to be; interested in truth, unbiased and not delusional.

Is this a good point for you and CB to gracefully end the meta?

[deleted]

[This is his article so he gets to say when people have gone off topic.] 

Free speech is not absolute.

You're being inappropriate.  That's all. If you want to argue for the sake of argument go ahead. Enjoy this news clip of a theater 'firing.' You can't fire in a theater either:

"Yelling fire in crowed theater may create a stampede; opening fire cause utter pandemonium." - News reporter.

In any event news talkers in my experience represents a woefully inadequate forum for any discussion regarding the application of the principles of free speech.

Be that as it may, it’s much much better than some of the goat rodeo’s that came before it.    

Still, you’ll always get the haters gaming any given format in an effort to spread their hateful venom to the world around them.    They tend to thrive in a setting attempting to allow “free speech.”

Its pretty easy to spot and it’s up to each individual to judge it accordingly. 

Legit Cave

Don't be strident.  I have indulged this version of being off-topic enough. I'm out.  You can make an article or seed; invite me, I will come.

Then perhaps you shouldn’t have started it but no worries.    [deleted. SOSDD]

Like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Yes, I watched Trump's address too. Thankfully, it was short. 

Yes, I watched Trump's address too. 

The reference was in regards to Biden--you probably have heard of him by now, and HE is the topic!

I'm sorry Tig but I am going to have to disagree with you. He was accosted by a pile of guys pressing him for an answer. In the old days, none of this would have been captured on tape and this would have been a non-event. So, he said a word we all say, and I don't even curse. 

This is who he is. Shoot from the lip Biden. Anyone who is shocked ( or feign shock), really shouldn't. 

And I have to wonder how much those guys were paid to accost Biden and spew lies to try and take him down. Nothing about Trump and/or the GOP would surprise me at this point.

What the man to spoke to Biden said that Biden said something that Biden never said and tried to make it true. Biden had the right to defend himself and did so in a language as befitting the situation, and what the a$$-hats could easily understand.

Indeed there is a time and place for everything, and IMHO, this was a time and place where Biden had a right to stand his ground and make his defense could and clear. If the person he spoke to was offended, then he should not have accused Biden of saying something he didn't say. Since he deliberately provoked Biden with his lie, he obviously was not shocked at Biden's response. 

And the man then saying Biden went off the deep end was meant to demean Biden once again. He deserves no apology.

And then the guy went immediately on fox news.

Again, likely as he was paid to do. No? Why else would the guy only go to Fox News then? The main channel that supports Trump and his lies, and glorifies those of his loyal supporters. 

IMHO, if it had been any other channel it would not be so obvious. However, those in Trump's camp are not known for their wealth of intelligence.

Why else would the guy only go to Fox News then?

Maybe Fox News was the only news outlet to seek him out, think about that.  This was news, so where were the others?

Maybe Fox News was the only news outlet to seek him out, think about that.

You're selling the other news medias short. They are not as stupid as you may like to think. Fox is the one that supports Trump, why would they pay him to seek out other medias that don't support Trump? Think about that.

There are videos out there showing Biden talking about banning 9mm handguns, he says “Who in God’s name needs to have a 9mm pistol with 10 rounds in it?”. Since the 9mm handgun with 10+1 capacity is by far the most popular handgun for home defense in America how is that not wanting to take our guns?

He clearly says that he wants to ban assault weapons, not all guns. Goodness, do you folks watch these videos?

What is defined as assault weapons needs to be clearer.

I’m strongly opposed to that and see it as a gun grabbing attack on our freedom. Most people buy assault weapons for defensive purposes. 

I'm sure that's true for many people which is fine but it excludes the many who just enjoy shooting one.   And that is a lot more shooters out there than people think.  

My home defense centers around a shotgun with a magazine tube extension.   Folks who choose to be on the wrong end of that are going to have a very bad day.

Few politicians do.   Of course the ones who were prior military do but that's a minority.  

I might warm up to more stringent (truly common sense) controls on the black rifle (never confiscation though) if i trusted politicians to stop there but i don't.   Not in the least based on their past performance and at this point they have a long way to go to earn that trust.

Most people buy assault weapons for defensive purposes. 

You do see the oxymoron there don't you?

Not really since the AR platform is misnamed when called an Assault Weapon.

Semantics. If it is fully automatic ( rare ) it is an assault weapon/machine gun.

The fact that you cannot visually tell the difference unless you can see the selector switch makes it

a technical issue for non gun owners. 

Right or wrong,

all they see is the black rifle and know/fear it could be full auto or converted to full auto.

Yeah, its only semantics for the anti gun narrative.

We can probably thank Hollywood.  Almost every war movie shows men and women using guns that spit thousands of rounds per minute that never overheat or run out of bullets.

That's what people think every AR is.

That's what people think every AR is.

I agree but just like anything else it sometimes just takes a little education and experience if you can swing a range trip.   I've enlightened more than one "anti gun" person that way.  

One was vehemently against black gun ownership and now bugs the crap out of me all the time to go shooting.  

I'm afraid i created a monster with that one   

Biden got mad because the guy was telling the truth, if you own a semi-auto rifle or handgun then Biden does want to take away your gun.

Biden got mad because the guy was telling the truth, if you own a semi-auto rifle or handgun then Biden does want to take away your gun.

Even if that is presently true ( he says not) doesn't that take both houses to approve. LMAO, like that is ever going to happen.

I'm sorry Tig but I am going to have to disagree with you.

Do so at your peril.   

My position on this is easily stated.   A person running for PotUS should, in any and every public venue, behave as a president.   Seems to me that this would be the first lesson drilled into the candidate by his campaign advisers.   And, as you note, since everyone has a video recording in their phones, it is even more critical that this be done (and, indeed, even when the candidate thinks he is in a private setting).

There is no reason to attack his inquisitor.   He has done this before.   You do not attack the person, attack the message.   And if you are going to go on the attack, then think about what you are going to say and articulate a clear rebuttal.   Rambling, half-sentence stuff just makes him look bad and arms Trump with campaign material.

So my net comment remains this:   I am very disappointed yet again that we have a choice between Trump and now Biden.

 I am very disappointed yet again that we have a choice between Trump and now Biden.

Are you equating the two?

Hardly, the two are entirely different individuals with entirely different views, personalities, objectives, morality, history, etc.

But what is very likely to be true (the part where they have commonality) is that one will be the D nominee and the other the R nominee.

I am very disappointed yet again that we have a choice between Trump and now Biden.

I'm sorry Tig but I am going to have to disagree with you. He was accosted by a pile of guys pressing him for an answer.

And the result was him showing his ignorance and talking down to voters.  Not a good thing to do.  

This is who he is. 

And it's showing the incompetence of the party he represents.

And the result was him showing his ignorance and talking down to voters.  Not a good thing to do.  

Look, it is never good to snap at a guy who is calling you out in a crowd of his buddies. I won't say no. But most guys would have reacted the same way when confronted. 

This is who he is.  And it's showing the incompetence of the party he represents.

Oh poppycock. Trump represents the republican party and his gaffs have been far worse. Is he showing the incompetence of the party he represents?

This is going to sound strange, but even if Biden wins the presidency, he will not be the president. The DNC will be the president. Biden will do whatever they tell him to do. The man will be a place marker, not a president.

[deleted]

This is going to sound strange, but even if Biden wins the presidency, he will not be the president. The DNC will be the president. Biden will do whatever they tell him to do. The man will be a place marker, not a president.

Nonsense, that doesn't sound strange at all......./s

the man will be a place marker, not a president.

Sounds like he is thinking of Trump. I for one would rather Biden be a place marker for the DNC, than to follow in Trump's footsteps and be a puppet president for Putin, Un, Assad and the other arch enemies of the US while shunning and/or betraying our loyal allies.

than to follow in Trump's footsteps and be a puppet president for Putin, Un, Assad and the other arch enemies of the US while shunning and/or betraying our loyal allies.

Wow. I didn't know independents fed into all the extreme left-wing talking points. Who knew.

Excellent idea for a new book. "The Geriatric Manchurian Candidate".

Excellent idea for a new book. "The Geriatric Manchurian Candidate".

An even better book is "Donald J. Trump, The Senile Puppet Who's Putin's Loyal B*tch" (a.k.a. "The Orange Man Who Skrewed America").

...even if Biden wins the presidency, he will not be the president. The DNC will be the president. Biden will do whatever they tell him to do. The man will be a place marker, not a president.

You base this on what now?

You base this on what now?

Really? The man operates as if he has Alzheimer's syndrome. And that vid where he speaks of children stroking his legs because they're hairy? (shudder) 

So you really don't have anything other than your feels? Okay.

Really? The man operates as if he has Alzheimer's syndrome. 

At least Biden knows where his car is.

I won't hold Trump's age against him, in fact, for that matter, I won't hold anybody in this discussion's age against them either!

It won't work this time around nonetheless!  Moreover, it is a sham and a shame for Christians to be deliberately involved in the dissemination of gross propaganda instead of actual knowledge.

Note: Do you really mean to wish Alzheimer's disease on anybody with such loose talk?

There is an implied admission there. Your reference to the DNC set aside because you have no way of knowing of what you speak, you are explicitly explaining to us that the RNC and conservatives allows Donald Trump unbridled control over its political party.  A pagan leader directing Christian fundamentalists.

“An AR is a machine gun!”

I would like to hear where this is in the interaction between Joe and the other guy.