Italians over 80 'will be left to die' as country overwhelmed by coronavirus

  
Via:  badfish-hd-h-u  •  2 months ago  •  47 comments

Italians over 80 'will be left to die' as country overwhelmed by coronavirus
Hardest-hit region drafts new proposals saying who will live and who will die

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T






Coronavirus   victims in Italy will be denied access to intensive care if they are aged 80 or more or in poor health should pressure on beds increase, a document prepared by a crisis management unit in Turin proposes.

Some patients denied intensive care will in effect be left to die, doctors fear.

The unit has drawn up a protocol, seen by The Telegraph, that will determine which patients receive treatment in intensive care and which do not if there are insufficient spaces. Intensive care capacity is running short in   Italy as the coronavirus continues to spread .

The document, produced by the civil protection deparment of the Piedmont region, one of those hardest hit, says: "The criteria for access to intensive therapy in cases of emergency must include age of less than 80 or a score on the Charlson comorbidity Index [which indicates how many other medical conditions the patient has] of less than 5."

The ability of the patient to recover from resuscitation will also be considered.

One doctor said: "[Who lives and who dies] is decided by age and by the [patient's] health conditions. This is how it is in a war."



The document says: "The growth of the current epidemic makes it likely that a point of imbalance between the clinical needs of patients with COVID-19 and the effective availability of intensive resources will be reached.

"Should it become impossible to provide all patients with intensive care services, it will be necessary to apply criteria for access to intensive treatment, which depends on the limited resources available."

It adds: "The criteria set out guidelines if the situation becomes of such an exceptional nature as to make the therapeutic choices on the individual case dependent on the availability of resources, forcing [hospitals] to focus on those cases in which the cost/benefit ratio is more favorable for clinical treatment."

Luigi Icardi, a councilor for health in Piedmont, said: "I never wanted to see such a moment. It [the document] will be binding and will establish in the event of saturation of the wards a precedence code for access to intensive care, based on certain parameters such as potential survival."




The document is already complete and only approval from a technical-scientific committee is needed before it is sent to hospitals. The criteria are expected to apply throughout Italy, government sources said.

More than 1,000 people in Italy have now died from the virus   and the number is growing every day. More than 15,000 are infected.

Italy has 5,090 intensive care beds, which for the moment exceeds the number of patients who need them. It is also working to create new bed capacity in private clinics, nursing homes and even in tents. However, the country also needs also doctors and nurses - the government wants to hire them - and equipment.

Lombardy remains the most critical region. However, the situation is also serious in neighboring Piedmont. Here, in just one day, 180 new cases were recorded, while deaths numbered 27. The trend suggests that the situation is not about to improve.

Roberto Testi, president of the coranavirus technical-scientific committee for Piedmont, told The Telegraph: "Here in Piedmont we aim to delay as long as possible the use of these criteria. At the moment there are still intensive care places available and we are working to create more.

"We want to arrive as late as possible at the point where we have to decide who lives and who dies. The criteria relate only to access to intensive care - those who do not get access to intensive care will still receive all the treatment possible. In medicine we sometimes have to make difficult choices but it's important to have a system about how to make them."






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The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
1  seeder  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"    2 months ago

This isn't progress, this is just plain disgusting. The difference between the Europeans and America is that we value all life regardless of age. We will not stop caring for our seniors under any circumstances. 

So much for universal healthcare. Never will we allow the rubes in government to make such decisions on this soil.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
1.1  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @1    2 months ago

we value all life regardless of age.

Thank you for saying that.jrSmiley_15_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
1.1.1  seeder  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @1.1    2 months ago

It's true, this country would never except such a disregard for life under any circumstance.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
1.1.2  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @1.1.1    2 months ago

I won't take back my hug.

 
 
 
The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
1.1.3  seeder  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @1.1.2    2 months ago

You don't have too. Fish needs hugs.....

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
1.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @1    2 months ago

This is what happens when you don't ban flights and/or travel into & out of the country.

I am sorry however for the people and idea's I have long cherished!

sophia-loren-quote.jpg

 
 
 
Kathleen
1.3  Kathleen  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @1    2 months ago

This is just inhuman. You just did not do this..

btw... Welcome back!

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
1.3.1  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Kathleen @1.3    2 months ago

Welcome to reality Kathleen.

Think back to some of the old M.A.S.H series.  While a comedy, reality stepped up and slapped us once in awhile.  Does a surgeon spend 8 hours of work and supplies on one person that is most likely not going to make it, or save three others expending the same amount of time and supplies?

It is very possible that our doctors in treating this virus are going to have the situation where they have one respirator to keep someone alive with, and three people that are in need of it.  What do you do then?

Want to extend this to our national blood supply?  People aren't going to be donating blood at the same rate, and even so, are you going to have to turn some away because they test positive?  That's assuming we even have tests available for blood donors.

There are no easy answers when lives of loved ones are on the line.  Just be ready in case we get to the point to where our medical system can't save everyone.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
1.3.2  XDm9mm  replied to  Kathleen @1.3    2 months ago
This is just inhuman. You just did not do this..

As Fly noted.  Welcome to reality.

Today, it's called triage.   It's treat those with the best chances of survival and provide comfort to those who you know, regardless of what you do, will die.

Another way to look at it is what many with terminal relatives do.  Hospice.  

It might suck, but in the end, it's the humane thing to do.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
1.3.3  FLYNAVY1  replied to  XDm9mm @1.3.2    2 months ago

Hospice.

If it gets to that point (and I sure hope it doesn't) for the many that haven't had to face these types of decisions, it's going to be hard.  

Lets just help everyone to be smart so we don't get there.  In this case, by helping others understand, we are helping ourselves.

Best wishes XD.... 

 
 
 
Kathleen
1.3.4  Kathleen  replied to  XDm9mm @1.3.2    2 months ago

It’s sad and a shame that we even have to go in that direction. I was hoping that it would not come to this. 

All I can say is just take care and hope that everyone on NT will be okay through this. I know that there are some that I had disagreements with on here, but I hope that you are all okay to... ❤️

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
1.3.5  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Kathleen @1.3.4    2 months ago

We'll get through this, and we aren't there yet!   If everyone does their part we'll be fine.

 
 
 
MUVA
1.3.6  MUVA  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @1.3.5    2 months ago

I agree stick together in the time of crisis or do the opposite like CNN.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
1.3.7  Raven Wing  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @1.3.5    2 months ago
We'll get through this, and we aren't there yet!

What I am wondering now, in view of Trumps edict that everyone must stay inside, is what will happen to us when we need to go to the pharmacy for meds, grocery store for food, or the Dr for necessary check-ups? If we are on the street in route to or from any of these places, will we be stopped and asked why we are out and about? Do we have to give a reason why we are not staying inside as directed?

Not being funny, it is a fair question. I just would like to know what to expect if and when I need to leave my home for these necessary reasons.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
1.3.8  XDm9mm  replied to  Raven Wing @1.3.7    2 months ago
What I am wondering now, in view of Trumps edict that everyone must stay inside, is what will happen to us when we need to go to the pharmacy for meds, grocery store for food, or the Dr for necessary check-ups?

Exactly what "Trump edict" are you referring to?   The only ones creating a 'shelter-in-place' or curfew types situations are Governors or local government authorities.   

If we are on the street in route to or from any of these places, will we be stopped and asked why we are out and about?

You'll need to ask your governor or city/county authorities that.  I understand that in San Francisco, that bastion of freedom, failure to comply with their "edicts" could mean misdemeanor charges.   One does wonder if that also applies to street dwellers.  Will they be confined to their tents or cardboard boxes?  Will they still be permitted to piss and shit on the streets outside of their domiciles?

Do we have to give a reason why we are not staying inside as directed?

You'll need to ask your governor or city/county authorities that.

Not being funny, it is a fair question. I just would like to know what to expect if and when I need to leave my home for these necessary reasons.

Fair answers to fair questions.  Even if the questions asked were asked of the wrong parties.

 
 
 
Sparty On
2  Sparty On    2 months ago

Like it or not "Triage" is a required concept if a given healthcare system is overloaded past capacity.

That said, one would hope we never have to make decisions like that.  

Not something i care to think about with two parents nearing 90 and one in an assisted living home.

 
 
 
The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
2.1  seeder  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"  replied to  Sparty On @2    2 months ago

We won't Sparty, someone, many will volunteer to take care of those you love if it were to become a problem.

 
 
 
Sparty On
2.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @2.1    2 months ago

I hope you are right.  

At that age there isn't really much an average family can do but attempt to provide comfort

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
2.2  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Sparty On @2    2 months ago

Lets all work to see we don't have to get to the point of having to considering "Triage".

Take things as serious, and flatten that infection rate curve! 

 
 
 
Sparty On
2.2.1  Sparty On  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @2.2    2 months ago

Agreed

 
 
 
Sunshine
3  Sunshine    2 months ago

80 isn't that old.  My mother is 88 and in good health.  She does need assistance (walker) to walk but that is it.  She is mentally sharp, lives by herself, and takes care of herself daily just fine.  So the young who are obese, smoke, and have numerous health problems will be treated?

 
 
 
The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
3.1  seeder  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"  replied to  Sunshine @3    2 months ago

Your mom and yes the giant takes up two seats in coach woman will also receive treatment because you live in the greatest country on Earth surrounded by the greatest neighbors.

 
 
 
jungkonservativ111
3.2  jungkonservativ111  replied to  Sunshine @3    2 months ago

Our country is going the opposite direction and many stores are providing "senior hours" where the elderly actually get a chance to stock up without being trampled by panic buyers.

https://www.wbrc.com/2020/03/17/dollar-general-provide-hour-senior-citizens-only-shopping/

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/continuing-coverage/coronavirus/stores-opening-early-for-seniors-but-some-cant-find-what-they-need

 
 
 
XDm9mm
4  XDm9mm    2 months ago

Ya gotta love that socialized medicine for all bullshit.

 
 
 
The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
4.1  seeder  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"  replied to  XDm9mm @4    2 months ago

As much as we all bitch about government on this forum, we should all agree to never hand off our health to those incompetent bastages.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
4.1.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @4.1    2 months ago

Matters of life & death in their hands?

NEVER!

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
4.2  FLYNAVY1  replied to  XDm9mm @4    2 months ago

I want you fellas to be absolutely right in the worst way, so please do everything you can to support efforts to flatten the infection rate curve. 

We don't want things to spike here to where there isn't enough for everyone.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
4.2.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @4.2    2 months ago
so please do everything you can to support efforts to flatten the infection rate curve. 

Eight weeks! Let's do it!

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
4.2.2  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.2.1    2 months ago

I'm not that religious... but AMEN!!!

 
 
 
XDm9mm
4.2.3  XDm9mm  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @4.2    2 months ago
I want you fellas to be absolutely right in the worst way, so please do everything you can to support efforts to flatten the infection rate curve.  We don't want things to spike here to where there isn't enough for everyone.  

Have no fear Fly....

I'm doing, well even before this happened I did the suggestions made.  It was and is simply good personal health and welfare responsibilities to be socially responsible and wash your hands etc.

Now, considering I'm in that 'susceptible' age bracket, I just do a little more.  I've always shied away from large crowds, now I'll keep my distance from smaller ones.  There really isn't much more anyone can do.

I don't anticipate a 'vaccine' for quite some time.  I would honestly prefer, for the immediate situation, they spend more time looking at anti-virals.  I believe they can either develop one from existing known anti-viral or even from scratch as opposed to trying to develop a vaccine.   That would be much more beneficial in the immediate short term and likely help more that might come down with a hard case of COVID19 requiring hospitilization.

 
 
 
Dignitatem Societatis
4.3  Dignitatem Societatis  replied to  XDm9mm @4    2 months ago
Ya gotta love that socialized medicine for all bullshit.

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

Are you under the impression that a private healthcare system can't be overwhelmed, leading to drastic life and death decision making?

Didn't you catch this part in the article?

The document says: "The growth of the current epidemic makes it likely that a point of imbalance between the clinical needs of patients with COVID-19 and the effective availability of intensive resources will be reached.
"Should it become impossible to provide all patients with intensive care services, it will be necessary to apply criteria for access to intensive treatment, which depends on the limited resources available."

Some of the posts here are making it sound like they're just being evil or something. As if there's more to be done, but they're simply choosing not to do it.

If they can't handle the number of people requiring intensive care, then what exactly do you expect them to do? They can't wave a magic wand and create a bunch of new equipment and facilities out of thin air.

It could happen here, too, you know. If our hospitals can't handle the influx, then they'll be forced to make the same tough decisions, whether anyone has private healthcare or not.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
4.3.1  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Dignitatem Societatis @4.3    2 months ago

Spot on!

 
 
 
The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
4.3.2  seeder  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @4.3.1    2 months ago

What's spot on?  that socialists subscribe to eugenics and care more about the state than the people?

Pretty fucking disgusting and Europeans are getting exactly what they signed up for.

In 2020 this cancer of socialism will meet its end at the ballot box.

 
 
 
Dignitatem Societatis
4.3.3  Dignitatem Societatis  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @4.3.2    2 months ago

Socialists? Eugenics? Have you lost your mind? What the hell are you talking about?

The Italians are having to deal with the cold, hard reality of this virus possibly overloading their medical capacity. Again, what would you have them do? They can't exactly treat people with equipment they don't have.

 
 
 
TᵢG
4.3.4  TᵢG  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @4.3.2    2 months ago

BF, when demand for medical help outstrips supply what do you do?   When faced with a 20 year old living or an 80 year old living (just to make this simple to answer),  what do you do?

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
4.3.5  FLYNAVY1  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @4.3.2    2 months ago

Go look up the word "Triage" Fish, and then get back to us. 

China, if we can believe the reports, has managed to break the first wave of infections due to their and quick actions.

Our rise in of infections will be a result of slow reaction and lack of preparation due to political pressures within our government.  Your staunchly libertarian views are going to run head first into the immovable wall of viral epidemiology.  

#1: Keep your family safe

#2: Keep others safe as your ability to keep your family safe is dependent on the garbage man, and the kid stocking shelves at the local supermarket.

 
 
 
Transyferous Rex
5  Transyferous Rex    2 months ago

I can't remember the station I was watching, I'm a channel surfer, but the first story I saw on this in January was an interview with a doctor, claiming that this was not as contagious as SARS, while displaying a chart, showing the number of confirmed cases for the entire SARS outbreak, and the first month of this. (At the time it was like double the cases in a 1/6th of the time) Sure, not contagious at all. My immediate thoughts were 1: What F'n idiot would believe this nut; and 2: What the hell are they hiding?

As for Italy. Its apparently a shit show. Not trying to make too much light of the situation, but I can't help it. This is what I envision.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
6  Buzz of the Orient    2 months ago

Although I might have been safer back in Canada, thank God I'm not at my age in Italy. It's hard for me to fathom aged people being considered expendable.

 
 
 
squiggy
7  squiggy    2 months ago

Don't the old folks deserve it, though? Look at some of their stoopid fucking children.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
7.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  squiggy @7    2 months ago

I'm an "old folk", in fact an old folkie.  I don't mind if you look at my children. They both have multiple university degrees and have highly successful careers.  What about YOUR kids?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
7.1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.1    2 months ago

LOL.  No reply - I wonder why.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
7.1.2  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.1.1    2 months ago

One of mine is a surgical nurse, the other pre-med...... they both seem to know what's at stake here.

 
 
 
It Is ME
8  It Is ME    2 months ago

It's a good thing Italy has a "Public Universal Health Care System"....or things could be worse ! jrSmiley_24_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
lib50
8.1  lib50  replied to  It Is ME @8    2 months ago

You think too few beds, doctors, medical equipment isn't part of our future?  We have LESS of all of it than Italy per capita!   When you don't have the resources to care for everyone, decisions are made. By next week you will see how much 'better' we really are.  We are less than 2 weeks behind them.

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.1  It Is ME  replied to  lib50 @8.1    2 months ago
You think too few beds, doctors, medical equipment isn't part of our future? 

What country do you know, has enough beds, doctors and medical equipment if an entire population comes down with "Sick Stuff ? 

"We have LESS of all of it than Italy per capita!"

Link ?

"We are less than 2 weeks behind them."

Ummmmm….. Link ?

 
 
 
lib50
8.1.2  lib50  replied to  It Is ME @8.1.1    2 months ago

I don't need an effing link.  Its happening in REAL time.  Pay attention.  They are still on the upswing and haven't turned the corner. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
8.1.3  It Is ME  replied to  lib50 @8.1.2    2 months ago
I don't need an effing link.  Its happening in REAL time. 

Link ?

I'm sure "YOUTUBE" has someone in Politics saying what you are "Proposing" !

 
 
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