New Instagram, Facebook series 'The Bible Quarantine' helps teens stay spiritually healthy

  
Via:  heartland-american  •  2 months ago  •  327 comments

By:   By Leah MarieAnn Klett, Christian Post Reporter

New Instagram, Facebook series 'The Bible Quarantine' helps teens stay spiritually healthy
“We have a choice,” Hall said. “We can sit in fear or we can use this forced Sabbath as a time to slow down and come back to what matters. ... I think God’s Word is going to speak to us during this time — and I believe this can be a life-defining season if we invite God in.” As of Saturday afternoon, the number of novel coronavirus cases has topped 266,000 in 182 countries and territories with 11,100 deaths, according to the World Health Organization. President Trump declared a national...

May God be with America and her people as we are prevented from working and doing other normal things such as going to church for the duration of this wuhan virus imposed upon us from afar. Faith and prayer are excellent ways to help cope with the situation and seek deliverance.  


S E E D E D   C O N T E N T




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As many Americans self-quarantine amid the coronavirus outbreak, Nick Hall, the founder of the millennial-led evangelism movement PULSE, has launched a new Instagram TV series to help millennials and teens stay spiritually healthy.

Titled “The Bible Quarantine,” the social media series explores relevant topics such as the meaning of church when people physically cannot meet together for worship and how to deal with fear in the face of the uncertain. 

Each episode, available on both  Instagram  and  Facebook , is seven to eight minutes long and is posted every night at 9 p.m. ET. The series’ first episode, “ Closed on Sunday ,” received an initial 11,400 views across all platforms.

“If I’m honest, this started as a goofy idea. I posted an image of a show idea called ‘The Bible Quarantine’ with the caption ‘Because man shall not live on Netflix alone.’ I was half-joking, but it got a very strong response because people are looking for hope and encouragement during this time of uncertainty,” Hall said in a statement shared with The Christian Post.


According to Hall, the episodes are designed “to encourage you, make you laugh, and challenge you to make the most of this pause in our busy lives.”

“Let’s stay connected to Jesus and each other while we practice wisdom during this season. Who knows what will God say to us when we pause and let Him speak?,” Hall added. 

Leveraging technology for the Gospel amid “social distancing,” PULSE also released  Move Closer , a mobile app featuring devotional content, Scripture study plans and videos to engage users in uplifting discussions on a variety of topics.

“We have a choice,” Hall said. “We can sit in fear or we can use this forced Sabbath as a time to slow down and come back to what matters. ... I think God’s Word is going to speak to us during this time — and I believe this can be a life-defining season if we invite God in.”


As of Saturday afternoon, the number of novel coronavirus cases has topped 266,000 in 182 countries and territories with 11,100 deaths, according to the  World Health Organization

President Trump declared a national emergency on March 13 and on Monday urged the public to avoid gatherings of more than 10 people. 

The administration's call for at least 15 days of social distancing has prompted many churches to provide online alternatives to on-campus worship.

“It’s important to be spending time in community with God’s people even if it’s online,” Max Lucado, pastor at Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, Texas, told The Christian Post. 

Recognizing that many churches aren’t equipped to  livestream their entire service,  Lucado opted to host a weekly Facebook live service, something he said is “easily accessible” for most people with an internet connection. 

“Every week, we do a 15 to 20 minute message and a time of prayer and reflection,” Lucado told CP, adding he will continue to do so “for as long as this lasts.”

“I think this is a time where we need to be feeding our faith,” he continued. “If you feed your faith, your fears will starve. If you feed your fears, your faith will starve. Our tendency is to feed our fears. We have to do intentional things to feed our faith.”

Megachurch pastor Joel Osteen also canceled all his worship services at Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, to help contain the coronavirus. The pastor’s message was instead broadcast on Facebook, YouTube, Roku, AppleTV and online at  JoelOsteen.com  and saw record-breaking numbers.


“We saw 4.51 million people tune in throughout the weekend across platforms,” the church  shared  with CP. 

“This broke our previous record of 4.17 million in November of last year when we broadcast Kanye West’s Sunday service from Lakewood. This number could increase throughout the week.”


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Heartland American
1  seeder  Heartland American    2 months ago

President Trump declared a national emergency on March 13 and on Monday urged the public to avoid gatherings of more than 10 people. 

The administration's call for at least 15 days of social distancing has prompted many churches to provide online alternatives to on-campus worship.

“It’s important to be spending time in community with God’s people even if it’s online,” Max Lucado, pastor at Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, Texas, told The Christian Post. 

Recognizing that many churches aren’t equipped to   livestream their entire service,   Lucado opted to host a weekly Facebook live service, something he said is “easily accessible” for most people with an internet connection. 

“Every week, we do a 15 to 20 minute message and a time of prayer and reflection,” Lucado told CP, adding he will continue to do so “for as long as this lasts.”

“I think this is a time where we need to be feeding our faith,” he continued. “If you feed your faith, your fears will starve. If you feed your fears, your faith will starve. Our tendency is to feed our fears. We have to do intentional things to feed our faith.”  https://thenewstalkers.com/community/discussion/49839/new-instagram-facebook-series-the-bible-quarantine-helps-teens-stay-spiritually-healthy

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Heartland American @1    2 months ago

“We’ve never lived in a time like this. This is unprecedented,” Lucado, pastor of Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, Texas, told The Christian Post. “Yet the Bible tells us that times have been bizarre before. You open your Bible and you read about pestilence, fears, dark times. The Bible is written for times like this.”

“I think this a time where we need to be feeding our faith,” he continued. “If you feed your faith, your fears will starve. If you feed your fears, your faith will starve. Our tendency is to feed our fears. We have to do intentional things to feed our faith.”

Choosing faith over fear amid the onslaught of negative headlines, The New York Times bestselling author said, begins with thought management. 

“When I turn on the news this evening, I’ll hear somebody say things are getting worse. If I don’t guard myself, I’ll let that create a sense of anxiety that will fill my heart, and then I will purvey that to the world,” Lucado explained.

“We think that just because we have a thought, we have to think it. We don’t. We don’t have to receive it. There are lots of lies out there and falsehoods distributed right now, in the form of exaggeration, like, ‘We’ll never get through this’ and other overstatements. We need to guard against those things because they can suck us down.”

The Lucado Encouraging Word Bible  author pointed out that in 2nd Corinthians, the Apostle Paul exhorts believers to “take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.”

“This means, we hear that thought, and then we pray: ‘I know it seems things are getting worse, but Lord, you are in control, and I’m not going to surrender to that. I give my fear to you,’” he said. “Instead of allowing anxiety into my heart, faith goes into my heart so that later, what I say is, ‘Things are tough, but I believe in a good God and He’s on the throne.' I become one who purveys hope instead of fear.”  https://www.christianpost.com/news/max-lucado-shares-how-to-choose-faith-over-fear-god-is-talking-to-the-world-amid-coronavirus.html

 
 
 
devangelical
1.2  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @1    2 months ago
I think this is a time where we need to be feeding our faith, If you feed your faith, your fears will starve. If you feed your fears, your faith will starve.

I can't think of a better opportunity to financially starve religious extremism into total extinction.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @1.2    2 months ago

All joking aside, you can see the fear on peoples’ faces. They are alarmed and feel as though they don’t have control, because the truth is, they don’t.

Folks, this is a wake-up call from God Almighty if I have ever seen one. It’s time to pray.

I don’t mean casual prayer. I am talking about fervent, storm-the-gates-of-Heaven type of prayer that calls out to God in desperation and urgency.

We need God in America today. We need him to eradicate what President Trump has called, “An invisible enemy”.   https://www.christianpost.com/voices/america-its-time-to-pray.html

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.2  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @1.2    2 months ago

How should Christians respond to the coronavirus pandemic?

By  Richard Land , Christian Post Executive Editor 
61978_w_400_519.jpg (By CP Cartoonist Rod Anderson)

First, as Christ-followers, we need to remember that our God is a “refuge and strength, a very present help in time of trouble” (Ps. 46:1). God has not given us a spirit of fear. We should not panic. Our Heavenly Father is still the all-knowing, ever-present, omnipotent God.

Second, we need to pray for all those who have been infected, those who will be, and for their families. We need to pray for God to deliver the world from this menace to human health and well-being. We need to pray for wisdom, guidance, and protection for our national, state and local leaders as they seek to fulfill their oaths of office in protecting the citizenry.

Third, we need to take necessary precautions. Listen to the medical experts. Be informed, sensitive, and wise in the way we approach this pandemic. In fact, not to do so would be to commit the sin of presumption (assuming the Holy Spirit will protect you when you disregard prudence and think since you are doing the Lord’s work, you can be exempt from sound medical advice). For example, if the authorities recommend no meetings of more than a hundred people, is it presumption for churches to go ahead and have their services in person rather than streaming? I hope not.

Fourth, don’t do anything knowingly that would put anyone else at risk. Seek to help those who need help coping with the aftermath of having the virus or having been exposed to it. And during this whole process, as Christ-followers, we must always remember and have in our consciousness the Lord Jesus’ command to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Mark 12:31) and “to do unto others as you would have them do unto you” (Luke 6:31).  Let’s all pray that when we look back on this crisis, our fellow Americans will see this episode of our history as one that reflects credit on the Lord we serve as they see His work in us as we serve them.

Dr. Richard Land is president of  Southern Evangelical Seminary  in Charlotte, North Carolina, and is part of an advisory group for President Donald Trump   https://www.christianpost.com/opinion/how-should-christians-respond-to-the-coronavirus-pandemic.html

 
 
 
devangelical
1.2.3  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.1    2 months ago

I thought god created everything, even satan. why would anyone pray to any supreme being that engineered this crisis and then leave an incompetent moron, that denied the serious ramifications of this crisis less than a month ago, in office to fix it?

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.4  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @1.2    2 months ago

There is no extremism here except that shown by the sites militant secularists.  The church will not be bankrupt until after mans fate has been decided to every person and the 2nd coming is imminent and we are being hunted and persecuted and it just won’t mattee anymore.  The Church triumphant is the final ending. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.5  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.4    2 months ago
There is no extremism here except that shown by the sites militant secularists.

There's certainly plenty of paranoia here.

 The church will not be bankrupt until after mans fate has been decided to every person and the 2nd coming is imminent and we are being hunted and persecuted and it just won’t mattee anymore.  The Church triumphant is the final ending. 

Proselytizing nonsense.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.6  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.1    2 months ago
All joking aside,

I doubt he's joking.

you can see the fear on peoples’ faces. They are alarmed and feel as though they don’t have control, because the truth is, they don’t.

And because people are hystrical, irrational, and emotional about what's going on.

I don’t mean casual prayer. I am talking about fervent, storm-the-gates-of-Heaven type of prayer that calls out to God in desperation and urgency.

Isn't this crisis part of god's plan? Is god going to change his mind because people pray?

We need God in America today.

Speak for yourself.

We need him to eradicate what President Trump has called, “An invisible enemy”.

No, we need science to do that. And science will probably produce much better results than prayer.

 
 
 
devangelical
1.2.7  devangelical  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.5    2 months ago
There's certainly plenty of paranoia here.

a lack of hard cash to skim off the top at the counting table in the back room will do that

 
 
 
devangelical
1.2.8  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.4    2 months ago
militant secularists

= Americans defending the Constitution

we are being hunted and persecuted and it just won’t matter

not to me. people that place themselves above the Constitutional rule of law deserve whatever happens to them.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.9  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.6    2 months ago

God is the author of science and everything else.  God does not control us like automatons compelling our obedience thus He did not destroy Satan and any angels who listened to him immediately lest the universe obey God out of abject fear and question if Satan had a point.  This had to play out and unfortunately mankind and thus this planet is the only one in all creation that fell for Satan’s point.  This will certainly all end and mankind will be restored to the perfection Adam and Eve once had.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.10  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @1.2.8    2 months ago

The constitution does not, has not, and never will demand secularism.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.11  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.10    2 months ago
The constitution does not, has not, and never will demand secularism.  

Do you consider the government defined by the CotUS to be a secular government — one that is not based on any particular religion (no theology) but strictly based on governance and the rule of law?

Note:  the CotUS does not define a secular society, indeed it embraces the freedom of religion, but it does define a secular government.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.12  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.6    2 months ago

The joking in context:    If you would have told me a few days ago that markets would be depleted and that we could not hold church services on Sunday, I would have thought that you were an alarmist. And if you would have added that it would be best for me to “self-quarantine” because I am one of the “vulnerable” to COVID-19 (I’m 67) three weeks ago, I would have thought that you had lost your mind.

Well, it’s happened. What a difference a few days make.

The President has declared a national emergency and America is in an absolute panic.

I’m not quite sure why so many people have emptied the store shelves of toilet paper though. It has become so valuable that we may start using it as currency!

“How much for that coffee? Will two squares of toilet paper do?”

All joking aside, you can see the fear on peoples’ faces. They are alarmed and feel as though they don’t have control, because the truth is, they don’t.

Folks, this is a wake-up call from God Almighty if I have ever seen one. It’s time to pray.

I don’t mean casual prayer. I am talking about fervent, storm-the-gates-of-Heaven type of prayer that calls out to God in desperation and urgency.

We need God in America today. We need him to eradicate what President Trump has called, “An invisible enemy”.

In the Bible, prayer stopped storms, calmed waves, healed the sick, raised the dead and even stopped time. Scripture reminds us, “With God, all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)

We need to turn our panic into prayer. At this time, the sources we often turn to for comfort cannot do anything for us.

Hollywood can’t save us. There is no blockbuster film or actor that will get us out of this.

Technology can’t save us either. Our smartphones and computer screens just feed us a barrage of information that heightens our stress and anxiety.

Our lawmakers in Washington can’t save us from this pandemic. They will hopefully work together and do what they can, but the outcome is outside of their control.

Even the President of the United States can’t save us. He has put together an excellent task force to deal with the coronavirus, but they can’t fix this for us. We should, however, take their advice seriously.

That is why the President wisely called for a National Day of Prayer.

In his proclamation, he stated:

“As your President, I ask you to pray for the health and well-being of your fellow Americans and to remember that no problem is too big for God to handle. We should all take to heart the holy words found in 1 Peter 5:7: ‘Casting all your care upon him, for he careth for you.’ Let us pray that all those affected by the virus will feel the presence of our Lord’s protection and love during this time.  With God’s help, we will overcome this threat.”

We need to keep praying, because the worst of this virus may still be coming.

But remember this: God is bigger than the coronavirus. He is bigger than any problem you may be facing right now.

The Bible says, “You do not have, because you do not ask” (James 4:2c ESV). And the Lord promises “‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know’” (Jeremiah 33:3 NKJV)

The Old Testament tells us the story of a man named Jehoshaphat. He was in big trouble. Three armies were marching toward him bent on destroying the King of Israel and his people. This terrified Jehoshaphat, and he asked everyone to fast and pray.

He prayed, “O our God, won’t you stop them? We are powerless against this mighty army that is about to attack us. We do not know what to do, but we are looking to you for help.” (2 Chronicles 20:12 NLT).

And guess what happened?

God answered their prayers and their enemies turned on each other.

There is a spiritual element to every problem. And this is a time to pray.

Here is a promise from God: “If I ever shut off the supply of rain from the skies or order the locusts to eat the crops or send a plague on my people, and my people, my God-defined people, respond by humbling themselves, praying, seeking my presence, and turning their backs on their wicked lives, I’ll be there ready for you: I’ll listen from heaven, forgive their sins, and restore their land to health” (2 Chronicles 7:14 MSG).

God says we need to humble ourselves, pray, seek His presence and turn our backs on our wicked lives. If we do that, the Lord promises to hear our prayers, forgive our sins and restore our land to health.

God keeps His promises.

Let’s keep praying.  https://www.christianpost.com/voices/america-its-time-to-pray.html

 
 
 
devangelical
1.2.13  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.10    2 months ago

the Constitution guarantees non-believers equality with believers. it also protects believers from becoming yard art, cat food, or kindling, and allows them freedom within the confines of the rule of law. the Constitution is the basis for the rule of law in the US. the bible stops where the Constitution begins. don't like it? leave.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.14  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.12    2 months ago
We need to keep praying, because the worst of this virus may still be coming.  But remember this: God is bigger than the coronavirus. He is bigger than any problem you may be facing right now.

God is ostensibly omnipotent, thus God can eliminate the virus at His will.

God is ostensibly omniscient, thus God knew of the virus before it even started.

God clearly has the knowledge and power to prevent the virus from even occurring.    Yet it is here.  Clearly God could eradicate the virus if He wanted to.   Given an omniscient and omnipotent God, the virus is God's will.   The virus must be part of God's master plan.

Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

 
 
 
devangelical
1.2.15  devangelical  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.14    2 months ago

logic, reason, checkmate.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.16  TᵢG  replied to  devangelical @1.2.15    2 months ago

It will be ignored, deflected or misrepresented (watch).   No direct rebuttal will ensue.

 
 
 
cjcold
1.2.17  cjcold  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.2    2 months ago

Even if there was a god I would spit in its face rather than worship it.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.18  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.14    2 months ago

Satan has a temporary ownership of this world and what happens here.  Bad things happen.  Bad things happen to good people.  All that is evil is attributable to Satan and the humans yielding to temptation to do evil.  Satan has an allotment of time to prove his contesting the fairness and justness of Gods law and order.  His murdering of the Son of God was proof of the evil of his ways to the universe.  Soon his time will run out here as well and our omniscient all powerful God will retake possession of this place and sin will end forever.  No one who lived through it or witnessed it from elsewhere will ever contemplate its return.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.19  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.18    2 months ago
Satan has a temporary ownership of this world and what happens here.  

Omniscient and omnipotent God has total control over Satan.  God could eliminate or nullify Satan at His will, thus Satan exists as part of God's plan.

If the virus came from Satan then God allowed it to come from Satan.  And God allows it to continue.   The virus is part of God's plan because He allows it.

Deflecting to Satan does not logically work;  not when God is omniscient and omnipotent.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.20  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  cjcold @1.2.17    2 months ago

Every human being that ever lived saved or lost will worship Him.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.21  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.19    2 months ago

Satan will always find ways to get lost humanity to blame God rather than himself for all their or the worlds problems.  Blaming God for creating beings with a free will to love and obey Him or not and for not destroying Lucifer the instant he rebelled is just rich with irony. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.22  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.9    2 months ago
God is the author of science and everything else.

That's nice. Prove it!

God does not control us like automatons compelling our obedience

Then explain this statement of yours, post 1.2.20: "Every human being that ever lived saved or lost will worship Him." That sure sounds like compelling obedience. At the very least, it demonstrates a lack of free will.

thus He did not destroy Satan and any angels who listened to him immediately lest the universe obey God out of abject fear and question if Satan had a point. 

How would the rest of the universe know? God could have kept it all hush-hush. He could have also destroyed Satan anytime he liked. And yet, god does nothing. Seems like poor planning on his part.

This had to play out and unfortunately mankind and thus this planet is the only one in all creation that fell for Satan’s point.

What did Satan do that was so bad exactly? Especially compared to all the bad things god has done? 

 This will certainly all end and mankind will be restored to the perfection Adam and Eve once had.  

See first statement!

The constitution does not, has not, and never will demand secularism.  

The constitution itself is a secular document which requires religious neutrality by the government. No one is compelled to be religious or otherwise.

Satan has a temporary ownership of this world and what happens here.  Bad things happen.  Bad things happen to good people.

All the while your god sits back and allows it. God is either incompetent, unable to stop Satan, or just indifferent to it all.

All that is evil is attributable to Satan and the humans yielding to temptation to do evil.

Still waiting for  you to explain what Satan has done exactly. Be specific!

 His murdering of the Son of God was proof of the evil of his ways to the universe. 

Jesus allowed it to happen. It was part of his plan, right? So how is it murder exactly? Especially since it wasn't Satan himself who actually killed Jesus. It seems more akin to assisted suicide.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.23  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.16    2 months ago
It will be ignored, deflected or misrepresented (watch).   No direct rebuttal will ensue.

No doubt about that either.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.24  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @1.2.15    2 months ago

Not at all.  Wishful thinking on the part of those who hope that God isn’t real and that He didn’t really inspire the writing of the Bible...

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.25  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.24    2 months ago
 Wishful thinking on the part of those who hope that God isn’t real and that He didn’t really inspire the writing of the Bible...

Prove god is real then! And "inspired" doesn't mean god actually wrote the bible. So that leaves lots of room for error and misinterpretation. Kind of like a theistic "artistic license." Especially when one considers the logical inconsistencies in the bible.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.26  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  cjcold @1.2.17    2 months ago

Why would you spit on a being you spent your whole life denying He exists if you were to suddenly find out otherwise and meet Him?

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.27  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.25    2 months ago

People will believe by faith and be saved or rely solely on logic and demand signs and wonders in order to believe who won’t be. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.28  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.27    2 months ago
People will believe by faith and be saved or rely solely on logic and demand signs and wonders in order to believe who won’t be

I'll take logic. Beats wishful thinking, emotional appeals, or self delusion.

Why would you spit on a being you spent your whole life denying He exists if you were to suddenly find out otherwise and meet Him?

Kind of like meeting one's father for the first time after "dad" abandoned you as a kid. Who needs a deadbeat around?

 
 
 
charger 383
1.2.29  charger 383  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.26    2 months ago

I would say, your salesmen (preachers) didn't do a good job, but now that your here I am glad to meet you 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.30  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.21    2 months ago
Satan will always find ways to get lost humanity to blame God rather than himself for all their or the worlds problems.

You are dodging.   And I am not blaming God, I am noting the obvious.   Everything that happens is because God allowed it to happen.   If you disagree then you cannot hold that God is omniscient and omnipotent.


God knows all and is all powerful.   Whatever happens is a result of God allowing it to happen.   God is omniscient and omnipotent.   If God does not want something to happen He could prevent it.   God could wipe out the virus instantly;  the fact that He has not suggests that He is okay with it.

Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.31  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.30    2 months ago
Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

What about the arrogance one must have to think god will change his plan just because one prayed? Or the annoyance we must be to god, to collectively pray to him billions of times a day? It's like humanity are robocallers (roboprayors?) calling on god for something. No wonder prayers don't get answered. God must hang up his prayer line before we can even finish a prayer.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.32  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.31    2 months ago
What about the arrogance one must have to think god will change his plan just because one prayed?

Exactly my point.   How does one think that praying to a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent entity would persuade the entity to act other than according to His plan?   How could we possibly provide information suitable to change such a mind?   This is not difficult logic.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.33  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.32    2 months ago
Exactly my point. 

And an excellent one as always. jrSmiley_79_smiley_image.gif

 How does one think that praying to a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent entity would persuade the entity to act other than according to His plan? 

And what kind of "perfect" entity would come up with such a flawed plan? I mean, we're talking about a deity who's plan involved creating his second in command as a traitor. Then exiling that "traitor" to our world (among a whole universe of worlds) where he can supposedly wreck havok. God could have simply sent him to some uninhabited world or moon. Surely that wouldn't be beyond his ability. To quote Tony Stark, "Not a great plan."

 How could we possibly provide information suitable to change such a mind?

And would such a mind care in the first place?

   This is not difficult logic.

Apparently to some, any and all logic is difficult. And when confronted with logic, they simply make excuses, deflect, ignore, and/or double down on their illogic.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.34  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.33    2 months ago
And what kind of "perfect" entity would come up with such a flawed plan?

The answer, of course, is:  'the Lord works in mysterious ways'.   Is that not enough for you?  

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.35  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.19    2 months ago
Omniscient and omnipotent God has total control over Satan.  God could eliminate or nullify Satan at His will, thus Satan exists as part of God's plan.

Correct.

If the virus came from Satan then God allowed it to come from Satan.  And God allows it to continue.   The virus is part of God's plan because He allows it.

Correct again.

Deflecting to Satan does not logically work;  not when God is omniscient and omnipotent.

Deflecting to Satan? Presumably your point is something like, even if Satan caused the virus (or any other bad thing that happens) because God, being who He is, is ultimately responsible for it all.

And?

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.36  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.35    2 months ago
Deflecting to Satan? Presumably your point is something like, even if Satan caused the virus (or any other bad thing that happens) because God, being who He is, is ultimately responsible for it all. And?

Goes to the posit that praying to God to encourage Him to act in a certain way is an act of futility.   How could mere human beings ever provide information to an omniscient entity that would persuade it to act other than its plan?  

For those who pray to God to remove the virus, what information are they providing that God did not already possess? 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.37  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.36    2 months ago
Goes to the posit that praying to God to encourage Him to act in a certain way is an act of futility.   How could mere human beings ever provide information to an omniscient entity that would persuade it to act other than its plan? 

Depends on what's being prayed for, doesn't it?

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.38  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.37    2 months ago

I gave you an example in my comment:

TiG @1.2.36For those who pray to God to remove the virus, what information are they providing that God did not already possess? 

What would cause God to change His mind (if God knows all there is no additional information available to influence a change from His perfect plan)?

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.39  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.38    2 months ago
I gave you an example in my comment:

Yes, I know. An attempt to narrow the conversation to something that you feel specifically favors your point of view, even though it doesn't. 

Goes to the posit that praying to God to encourage Him to act in a certain way is an act of futility.

How would you know this? Because the prayer  may not be answered? Does that not presume that the purpose is to get God to act as we would wish Him to? Would that not indicate our purpose rather than His? Perhaps God's purpose is nothing more than to get us to call on Him? After all, what would you find more logical on God's part if His goal is to get us to turn to Him as God? Fulfilling our personal wish fulfillment or getting us to a point where we accept whatever His will may be for us, even if it isn't what we want?

When Paul prayed for people, there's never an  instance where he prays that God would spare them from whatever they are going through. The prayers are always that God equip people to go through whatever God allows them to suffer in a manner that glorifies God and helps them grow into the image of Christ. 

So, really, it's not providing an omniscient God with information that He doesn't have in order to get Him to act in accordance with our desires. It is asking God to equip us with what we need to endure in His name. There's nothing wrong with asking God to take away the pandemic and the suffering, but it's really secondary. Overall, DJT Fan's point is simply that God is in control, and no matter how frightening something may appear, we aren't alone and that we need to remember that. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.40  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.39    2 months ago
Yes, I know. An attempt to narrow the conversation to something that you feel specifically favors your point of view, even though it doesn't. 

Here we go again.   You cannot just stick with the content but instead accuse me of trickery right off the bat simply because I provided an example.

My example is what we have been talking about in the latter portion of this thread.   Further, it was an example for the purposes of illustration.  

I am not narrowing the conversation, rather you are seemingly trying to broaden it (and change the whole point in the process).

How would you know this?

Already explained.   God is omniscient; thus God already has all the information.   There is nothing prayer can provide to God that God does not already know.   I suspect I will be repeating this because chances are excellent you will continue to ignore it.

Because the prayer  may not be answered?

No.   Because the prayer is not going to change God's perfect mind since God already knows what His creatures want Him to do (omniscience and perfection, remember?).

Does that not presume that the purpose is to get God to act as we would wish Him to?

That is what we are talking about:  the futility of praying for the purpose of getting God to act as we would wish Him to act.  


Maybe you should read the context because clearly you missed the point.   Note:

TiG @1.2.14Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

Nowhere do I suggest that prayers for strength apply here;  the discussion is about the futility of encouraging God to act differently.

Keep the goalposts where they were originally placed.

What would cause God to change His mind (if God knows all there is no additional information available to influence a change from His perfect plan)?

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.41  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.40    2 months ago
Here we go again.

Apparently.

I am not narrowing the conversation, rather you are seemingly trying to broaden it (and change the whole point in the process).

Oh, absolutely, you are trying to narrow it and absolutely I am trying to broaden it. Why the objection? Why do what you always do, which is complain when someone brings other issues and factors involved with the subject that don't go the way you want them to?

Already explained.   God is omniscient; thus God already has all the information.   There is nothing prayer can provide to God that God does not already know.   I suspect I will be repeating this because chances are excellent you will continue to ignore it.

It's not so much ignoring it as pointing out that what you describe here is an incorrect view of prayer. Not my problem you have a problem with that. Nor does it obligate me to argue within your false narrative. Just the way it works, TiG. 

No.   Because the prayer is not going to change God's perfect mind since God already knows what His creatures want Him to do (omniscience and perfection, remember?).

Except this is an argument generated from logic, based on your definition of those terms, not actual experience. 

Uh, yeah, Drakk that is what we are talking about.   The futility of praying for the purpose of getting God to act as we would wish Him to act.

Except, TiG, that if one prays in accordance with God's will, would He not act? How would that be futile? If God wishes me to have faith in Him, but something happens that diminishes my faith and I pray to Him to restore my faith and He brings it about, how is that futile? How is it purposeless? 

Nowhere do I suggest that prayers for strength apply here;  the discussion is about the futility of encouraging God to act differently.
Keep the goalposts where they were originally placed.

I see. Your lack of understanding means I'm moving the goalposts. Got it. 

Why not try reading Psalms. It's full of prayers asking God to act differently. They certainly didn't think it futile. They fully expected 
God to answer. Quite often He did and there are many psalms that praise Him for it. 

The problem with your argument, as I see it, is that you treat this as if God is some impersonal force that will act regardless of anything we do, therefore, prayer is futile. I imagine it ties into your idea of what an omniscient and omnipotent God means for free will. That's fine. You get your opinion. 

My point is that it isn't as simple as that. Something you apparently object to. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.42  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.41    2 months ago
Why do what you always do, which is complain when someone brings other issues and factors involved with the subject that don't go the way you want them to?

You think it is unreasonable for me to object to you changing the topic of debate?    

... what you describe here is an incorrect view of prayer. 

I did not define the point of prayer.   I stated that praying with the expectation of changing the mind of a perfect, omniscient God is an act of futility.   Do you wish to debate me on this, the actual point I made?


TiG @ 1.2.14  ☞  Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

Can you answer the question?   Looks like you cannot as evidenced by your attempts to change the subject.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.43  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.42    2 months ago
You think it is unreasonable for me to object to you changing the topic of debate? 

There has been no change of topic. What's changed is the narrow parameters you wish to impose on the topic. That is, if we ignore that stuff over there and we squint just right, we'll see that you're right. Nope. 

I did not define the point of prayer.   I stated that praying with the expectation of changing the mind of a perfect, omniscient God is an act of futility.   Do you wish to debate me on this, the actual point I made?

I've already been debating you on this subject. You think I'm simply changing the subject. But I can see this is going where it always goes. So, got better things to do than try to convince you that your thoughts aren't the only relevant ones that matter. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.44  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.43    2 months ago
TiG @  1.2.14   ☞  Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

Can you answer the question?   

Obviously not.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.45  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.32    2 months ago

Repentance and prayer has changed Gods mind and it’s in the Bible.  God was prepared to destroy the capital of the Assyrian empire Nineveh much like Sodom and Gomorrah and sent the prophet Jonah to proclaim it.  The king and people of Nineveh put on sack cloth, mourned and repented their sins and God spared them.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.46  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.45    2 months ago
Repentance and prayer has changed Gods mind and it’s in the Bible.  

Yes indeed it has.   There are numerous examples in the Bible where God has acted (ostensibly) differently based on pleas from (and behavior of) his creations.

We agree that God appears to change His mind per the Bible

An omniscient God learned something new that caused Him to change His mind.

⛬   Either God is not omniscient or He did not change His mind.  

This biblical contradiction illustrates that the Bible is not divine.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.47  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.44    2 months ago
Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

Other than the examples of God changing His mind in the Bible, how would I know? It isn't as if He speaks to me as He did to the prophets of old, telling me He's going to do this and that and I can see if He changes His mind later on upon some action on our part. Further, how would we know (empirically) if tomorrow not a single new case of the virus was detected, or for the rest of the year, whether God caused it due to prayer? 

But that isn't really what you mean, anyway. What you are really intending to ask is how could an omniscient God change His mind in the first place. If He changed His mind, that must mean (according to your reasoning) He didn't have information necessary prior to changing His mind and the new information caused the change of mind, indicating that He could not be omnipotent.

But this is hardly the only explanation and that's a problem for you. And why you claim I'm changing the subject. But I'm not. I'm pointing out that your question may be irrelevant because it doesn't actually address what is occurring concerning prayer. That is, you think that if God changes His course of action based on prayer that it must impact on the validity of His omnipotence but that easily need not be the case at all. God changing His mind, i.e, what He is doing because of prayer hardly means there is something less than omnipotent about it but, rather, simply a response to what He desires from us in the first place. 

Lastly, the question is not "will prayer change the mind of an omnipotent God" but, rather, can it? It isn't as if prayer forces God to do anything we ask of Him. Whether to answer prayers, and how they may be answered is up to Him. He is not a force to be manipulated, like gravity. The problem we both have is, how do we know if, and to what extent, prayer concerning something like this virus has been or is being answered? What empirical test are you going to devise for that? For all you know, prayer has limited the severity of this virus. How are you going to prove otherwise? 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.48  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.46    2 months ago
An omniscient God learned something new that caused Him to change His mind.

Oh, for goodness sake, even you should be able to see the weakness of your argument here. What new information did God get and how? 

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.49  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.34    2 months ago
The answer, of course, is:  'the Lord works in mysterious ways'.   Is that not enough for you?  

Of course [slaps forehead], silly me! 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.50  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.47    2 months ago
Other than the examples of God changing His mind in the Bible, how would I know?

Logic.   Go by the biblical definition of God.   According to how God is defined ...  ( now apply reasoning ).

Omniscience !   If God knows all then there is no information that God does not already possess.   What would cause an all-knowing perfect entity to change its mind?   God has already made the perfect decisions based on perfect and complete information .   

What you are really intending to ask is how could an omniscient God change His mind in the first place. If He changed His mind, that must mean (according to your reasoning) He didn't have information necessary prior to changing His mind and the new information caused the change of mind, indicating that He could not be omnipotent.

What I intended to ask is what I asked:  " Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God? "   But close enough; strike the ' in the first place ' phrase.   Also strike ' omnipotent' and insert ' omniscient' .   Just to be clear.   Thus you have:  " How could an omniscient God change His mind? ".    How could a perfect decision by a perfect, omniscient God change?   If the decision is perfect and based on perfect, complete information then what triggers any change?

That is, you think that if God changes His course of action based on prayer that it must impact on the validity of His omnipotence but that easily need not be the case at all. God changing His mind, i.e, what He is doing because of prayer hardly means there is something less than omnipotent about it but, rather, simply a response to what He desires from us in the first place. 

You are focusing on omnipotence rather than omniscience .    Your comment thus makes no sense per my question.   I asked: " Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient  God? ".   This does not even bring omnipotence into question.   It is strictly a question of omniscience.   An omniscient God knows all so prayer cannot possibly provide God with new information.  Thus, how could prayer encourage an omniscient God who makes perfect decisions to change His mind?  Not only does God know more than those praying, but He knew that they were going to pray and what they would ask for in prayer.   Omniscience!

Lastly, the question is not "will prayer change the mind of an omnipotent God" but, rather, can it? 

Have you noticed that throughout you keep trying to change my question?    I understand that you naturally will refuse to directly answer my question.   It would be better to simply say:  I choose to not answer your question rather than engage in these tactics.

It isn't as if prayer forces God to do anything we ask of Him. 

Agreed per the biblical definition of God; never suggested otherwise.   Ignoring your latest strawman attempts.


TiG @   1.2.14    ☞    Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

This question is straightforward yet you spend all your time trying to change the question to something you can answer.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.51  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.48    2 months ago
Oh, for goodness sake, even you should be able to see the weakness of your argument here. What new information did God get and how? 

Drakk, read the comment.   What you cherry-picked is part of a comment where I am illustrating contradiction.   I am taking DJTF#1's scenario and illustrating the contradiction therein.

My position in this thread has been that God cannot possibly get any new information because He is ostensibly omniscient.   Yet you cherry-pick and obtusely claim that for some bizarre reason I extemporaneously declare the exact opposite of my point.   Does that not even register a tiny red flag in your mind??  

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.52  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.12    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.53  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.45    2 months ago
Repentance and prayer has changed Gods mind and it’s in the Bible.

That just proves god is not infallible. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.54  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.49    2 months ago

Do you see any answer to my question:

TiG @ 1.2.14     ☞    Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

I see lots of deflection, etc.   Let me know if I missed something.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.55  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.53    2 months ago

Logically, if God knows everything, how is it even possible to change His mind?   He would indeed have to be imperfect.   He knows everything yet somehow made a bad decision.   And then later, something happens to His mind which causes Him to make a better decision with the same information (everything).

God cannot be omniscient and perfect and change His mind.   I wonder which attribute will be the subject of equivocation?

Logically, if one sticks to how God is defined in the Bible, He never changes His mind; He is never surprised.   The Bible contradicts itself.

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.56  loki12  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.55    2 months ago

Not to you in particular, but one instance where God changed his mind, I'm drawing a blank.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.57  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.54    2 months ago
Do you see any answer to my question:

To be fair, DJTF1 seems to have made an attempt to answer in his post 1.2.45. However, it only highlights that god is not perfect. 

I see lots of deflection, etc.

No doubt we'll continue to see more too.

  Let me know if I missed something.

I think you covered everything, as you usually do.

Logically, if God knows everything, how is it even possible to change His mind?  

Logically, it shouldn't be possible. God should already know all prayers, options, and outcomes well in advance. So if god is perfect and has a "perfect" plan, then god should follow that plan to the letter and mere praying would not allow god to change anything, as anything else can be considered less than perfect or show a flaw in god's plan.

He would indeed have to be imperfect.   He knows everything yet somehow made a bad decision.   And then later, something happens to His mind which causes Him to make a better decision with the same information (everything).

Exactly.

God cannot be omniscient and perfect and change His mind.  

That would be a logical contradiction. And an omniscient god would mean we have no free will either.

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.58  loki12  replied to  loki12 @1.2.56    2 months ago

Sorry, ignore the above, I see you being your typical self and have tried to morph the conversation again. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.59  Gordy327  replied to  loki12 @1.2.58    2 months ago
I see you being your typical self

You mean logical, analytical, rational.

and have tried to morph the conversation again. 

How so?

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.60  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.22    2 months ago

[deleted. Please stop preaching on this site. It is not allowed.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.61  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.60    2 months ago

More proselytizing nonsense which doesn't address anything I said or challenges made. Just religious rhetoric and deflection.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.62  TᵢG  replied to  loki12 @1.2.56    2 months ago
Not to you in particular, but one instance where God changed his mind, I'm drawing a blank.

see @1.2.45

This is easy to find in the Bible.   Any place where God changes His plan is a change of mind.   For example, start at the beginning with Adam and Eve.   Either God knew they would disobey Him or He was surprised.   Clearly God could not be surprised since He is omniscient.   Thus we are left with the fact that God created Adam and Eve knowing fully well that they would disobey and that He would then banish them and curse their progeny.   Lovely.   Consider Noah's flood next.   Consider the Tower of Babel.   On and on.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.63  TᵢG  replied to  loki12 @1.2.58    2 months ago

I have asked this question:

TiG @1.2.14Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

I have been entirely consistent throughout.

Can you directly and seriously answer the question?

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.64  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.59    2 months ago

It never fails Gordy.   Deflect, etc. and, of course, go personal.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.65  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.46    2 months ago

God has always given mankind the opportunity to do as the people of Ninevah did.  The people at the time of the global flood had 120 years warning to repent and change their ways.  The people of Sodom and Gommorah were captured by other kings and taken to be slaves only to be rescued by God through Abraham and once restored resumed their wicked ways.  The people of Canaan had 500 years from when Jacob went to Joseph in Egypt until the Exodus and most didn’t change their ways.  The people of Israel rebelled against God in the wilderness and God sent poisonous snakes into their midst and some perished.  The people prayed and God told them to mount a serpent upon a cross and that all who obeyed and looked upon it were healed.  That symbol is with us to this day.  Gods aim was to persuade sinners to repent first, not to destroy them first and only stop if they repented. Sinful mankind often didn’t listen to or heed clear warnings.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.66  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.52    2 months ago

It seems one can’t describe the way things turn out as described at the end of the book of Revelation because the closed minded consuder said description of said Book to be proselytizing, as any description of what many Christians believe to be the end result of our belief is simply not allowed.   

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.67  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.62    2 months ago
Thus we are left with the fact that God created Adam and Eve knowing fully well that they would disobey and that He would then banish them and curse their progeny.   Lovely.  

This also shows how god is malevolent. It's not enough that he banishes Adam & Eve, but also curses their offspring who weren't even born and have nothing to do with their "sin." Talk about blaming the innocent. Not to mention god doesn't forgive them, but rather holds a grudge. How sadistic of a supposedly "forgiving" being.

It never fails Gordy.   Deflect, etc. and, of course, go personal.

Tell me about it.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.68  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.53    2 months ago

No it proves that man is fallible.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.69  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.68    2 months ago
No it proves that man is fallible.  

Way to miss the point and make excuses for your god. If god's plan can be changed by someone praying, then it proves god's plan is not perfect and by extension, neither is god. That's simple logic. Infallible man should be incapable of persuading an infallible god.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.70  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.50    2 months ago
Omniscience !   If God knows all then there is no information that God does not already possess.   What would cause an all-knowing perfect entity to change its mind?   God has already made the perfect decisions based on perfect and complete information .

Simple. Because He is interacting with us, something you always leave out of the equation. As if for God to be God, it doesn't matter what we do and therefore is not a factor. Not so. Quite often, what God does is dependent on what we do, as in the case of the story of Jonah and Nineveh.  

If the decision is perfect and based on perfect, complete information then what triggers any change?

Again, our response to Him. That can't be that difficult to understand. 

 Your comment thus makes no sense per my question.

You're correct. I meant "omniscience". Don't know why I kept saying "omnipotence". 

Have you noticed that throughout you keep trying to change my question? 

No! Really? 

Sometimes I have to wonder about you. It's as if you expect the world to accept whatever you say as if it's a given. "I, the great TiG, have declared that things are thus, and so they must be!"  You state that an omniscient God (that's what your argument amounts to, anyway) could not change His mind. Apparently, in order to "not change the subject", I'm supposed to just accept that as true and then argue from there. You get offended if anyone argues that your position may not be correct, apparently feeling anyone pointing out the problems with it isn't playing fair.

I mean, look at what you're doing. You're simply stating that an omniscient God would not have occasion to change His mind because, being omniscient, He would make decisions and take actions that would not require it. This totally ignores the demonstrably likely reason why God would change His mind when dealing with entities (us) that have free will. 

God had in mind to destroy the Ninevites because of their wickedness. By telling Jonah to go warn them, He also knows (at least,  there's no reason to assume He doesn't) that they will repent. Jonah runs away not because he's afraid of the assignment but because he knows that if Nineveh repents, God will spare them, something Jonah doesn't want. God decided to do one thing, but because of the reaction to what He decided to do, as communicated by Jonah's message, God does something else. Not seeing the lack of omniscience here. 

But suppose it turned out different? Imagine Jonah delivers God's warning and they reject it, thus resulting in God destroying Nineveh. Again, how could this necessarily be a case of a lack of omniscience instead of God preventing Nineveh from saying "you never warned us" on the day of judgement? 

So, sorry, but I'm not just going to accept what you say as correct simply because you demand that I do. And don't claim you're not doing that because by saying I'm changing the subject you do exactly that. According to what you consider logic, an omniscient God would not make decisions that would require a change of mind later. I disagree, and whether you like it or not, that is the basis of argument. If you can't handle it, then just drop it. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.71  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.65    2 months ago

You are not addressing the question I posed.    I am not arguing that the Bible shows no events where God changes His mind.   Indeed, I entirely agree that it does show Him changing His mind.

The problem is that if God is perfect and omniscient then how is it even logically possible for God to change His mind?   Do you understand the problem here?  God already knows everything so no new information is even possible.   And since God always makes perfect decisions with perfect information there is no reason to ever change His mind.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.72  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.51    2 months ago
What you cherry-picked is part of a comment

Um, you said ...

An omniscient God learned something new that caused Him to change His mind.

That's the full comment. How is that cherry picking? How am I being unreasonable in asking you what new thing that God learned that He apparently didn't know before? I mean, that's rather key to your point, don't you think? You're claiming that a change of mind on God's part would be due to some information that He didn't have before, thus making the claim God being omniscient null. So, naturally, when you made the comment I quote above, I'm going to ask what that new information was. I note that you do not do so but, rather, somehow claim I'm saying your point is opposite of, um, your point, whatever that means. 

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.73  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.67    2 months ago

Actually the bigoted militant secularists relentlessly attack and belittle our beliefs and then when we refer to what we believe in defense of said belief, other secularists say we are proselytizing by simply defending explaining what we believe.  Then others allow all forms of attacks on belief and Christians to stand while censoring self defense.  Such is the life of being a part of a persecuted belief system. 

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.74  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.60    2 months ago

deleted

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.75  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.61    2 months ago

Then go away.  We will use our religion to defend our religious beliefs as long as they are subject to assault by non believers.  We know what we believe and there is no amount of condescension, criticism, anger, so called science/logic you use will dissuade us from it.  It is really petty during a crisis like this to attack the source of many people’s calm, well being, faith of so many different people 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
1.2.76  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.73    2 months ago
Actually the bigoted militant secularists relentlessly attack and belittle our beliefs and then when we refer to what we believe in defense of said belief, other secularists say we are proselytizing by simply defending explaining what we believe.

What Drakk is doing is engaging in a discussion which is the right way to handle this discussion and not just quoting the bible without making a point, which is what you are doing. Enough with the meta and carry on.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.77  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.70    2 months ago
Simple. Because He is interacting with us, something you always leave out of the equation. As if for God to be God, it doesn't matter what we do and therefore is not a factor. Not so. Quite often, what God does is dependent on what we do, as in the case of the story of Jonah and Nineveh.  

You are ignoring omniscience.   God already knew what everyone would do.   No new information ever comes to God because He knows everything.

Again, our response to Him. That can't be that difficult to understand. 

Your response to God is not new information.  God already knew your response before you made it.   Omniscience.   You keep ignoring it.  Why?

It's as if you expect the world to accept whatever you say as if it's a given. "

Is it possible for you to not always make things personal?   

What I am doing is countering your dancing.   You refuse to directly answer my question and instead of catering to your deflections (I am long since done giving you that benefit of the doubt) I am focusing you right back on the question that you are dodging.

I mean, look at what you're doing. You're simply stating that an omniscient God would not have occasion to change His mind because, being omniscient, He would make decisions and take actions that would not require it. This totally ignores the demonstrably likely reason why God would change His mind when dealing with entities (us) that have free will. 

Are you saying that an entity with free will can produce information that is new to an omniscient God?   How do you define omniscience?   Seems to me that you must equivocate on the meaning of that word if your above comment is to make any sense.

God decided to do one thing, but because of the reaction to what He decided to do, as communicated by Jonah's message, God does something else. Not seeing the lack of omniscience here. 

The lack of omniscience is illustrated in"because of the reaction".   You think an omniscient entity would not know what the reaction was going to be?   Again, you seem to have a special definition for 'omniscience'.   So how do you define omniscience?

So, sorry, but I'm not just going to accept what you say as correct simply because you demand that I do.

I never make demands like that.  Consider ceasing juvenile taunts Drakk.   I am engaging in debate (as much as that is possible with you).   You make a point and I raise a counterpoint.  I do not demand, I challenge with logic and facts.

Try to refrain from making things personal (and issuing false allegations) against your interlocutor simply because you cannot directly answer the challenge.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.78  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.69    2 months ago

my God is not in any need of a defense from arrogant science/logic centered sinful humanity.  There will be no signs and wonders to convince people who approach these matters as you do

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.79  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.73    2 months ago
Actually the bigoted militant secularists relentlessly attack and belittle our beliefs and then when we refer to what we believe in defense of said belief,

More deflection without actually addressing the points made. Instead, you resort to sweeping generalizations and ad hom attacks.

other secularists say we are proselytizing by simply defending explaining what we believe.

Proselytizing is proselytizing.

 Then others allow all forms of attacks on belief and Christians to stand while censoring self defense.  Such is the life of being a part of a persecuted belief system. 

More persecution complex nonsense. Rather than constantly play the victim, how about actually addressing the points and challenges made? Repeating your proselytizing nonsense is neither convincing or persuasive. It just shows personal bias and intellectual dishonesty.

Will you stop the attacks on our belief system too or are those ok?  

Challenging or questioning a belief or belief system is not an attack. Or do you seriously think beliefs should be free from scrutiny?

my God is not in any need of a defense from arrogant science/logic centered sinful humanity.  

Funny how you make excuses or give your god a free pass for its failings or logical inconsistencies.

There will be no signs and wonders to convince people who approach these matters as you do

Because there are no such things. And no reason to take religious rhetoric seriously.

Then go away.  

You first!

We will use our religion to defend our religious beliefs as long as they are subject to assault by non believers.

Then don't be surprised or upset when your beliefs are challenged or questioned, especially if you espouse them as fact or truth.

 We know what we believe and there is no amount of condescension, criticism, anger, so called science/logic you use will dissuade us from it.

That just proves the intellectual dishonesty I mentioned. Not even willing to question or challenge one's own beliefs, much less acknowledge that they could be wrong.

 It is really petty during a crisis like this to attack the source of many people’s calm, well being, faith of so many different people 

A challenge or question of belief is not an attack. And no one is saying you can't resort to your beliefs for comfort or whatever. But if you can't handle it, then perhaps you should, as you suggested to me, "go away."

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.80  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.72    2 months ago
That's the full comment

That is the full sentence, not the full comment.     

How is that cherry picking?

You mean besides picking a sentence out of the context of its comment and trying to impose a different meaning;  one that makes zero sense given what I have consistently argued in this thread?

Already explained.   My comment listed facts presented by DJTF#1.   That was one of his observed facts listed.   I did not make that claim, I am acknowledging that the Bible does indeed indicate that God learned something new that caused Him to change His mind.

To be crystal clear, the Bible contradicts the claim that God is omniscient.   

My point has been that an omniscient entity who makes perfect decisions would never have any reason to change its mind.   Its decisions are already perfect based on perfect and complete information.

See?   

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.81  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.71    2 months ago

see 1.2.70

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.82  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.71    2 months ago
The problem is that if God is perfect and omniscient then how is it even logically possible for God to change His mind?   Do you understand the problem here?  God already knows everything so no new information is even possible.   And since God always makes perfect decisions with perfect information there is no reason to ever change His mind.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? How much simpler can it be made? 

God: I am going to destroy you for your wickedness!

Nineveh: We were wrong! We repent! Please do not destroy us!

God: Okay. I won't. 

What in any of that, in any way, shows that God did not know Nineveh would repent? How does it demonstrate a lack of omniscience??? All you have done to date is simply insist that an omniscient God would not have to change His mind, without any evidence to support it. It's just a claim on what you consider logic without presenting the logic. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.83  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.82    2 months ago
Are you being intentionally obtuse? How much simpler can it be made? 

You did not address the question you quoted.   Instead you insult my intelligence and then list a scenario where God changes His mind.   You are stating that an omniscient God (who knows everything, including the repentance) changed His perfect mind based on his creations doing exactly what He knew they would do?

God knew they would repent before they repented.   You are ignoring that.   No new information came to God yet you argue that a perfect decision made with the same information was changed based on nothing at all.

What in any of that, in any way, shows that God did not know Nineveh would repent?

Drakk, I have been positing that God did know they would repent.    God is omniscient and thus He knows all.     Hello? 

How does it demonstrate a lack of omniscience???

Knowing of the repentance does not demonstrate a lack of omniscience.   You are arguing the exact opposite of my point.   On purpose?

All you have done to date is simply insist that an omniscient God would not have to change His mind, without any evidence to support it. It's just a claim on what you consider logic without presenting the logic.

You are looking at the contradiction and flat out denying it.    Nothing new here, but it remains an interesting phenomenon.

All-knowing + perfect mind ⇒ perfect decision (perfect = no need to change)

When God makes a decision it is perfect.   Since God knows everything, every decision is based on all information.   No new information is ever possible.   Thus God would never change His mind;  He already made the perfect decision.

Or do you wish to argue that God can make imperfect decisions?

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.84  loki12  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.63    2 months ago

It’s a bullshit question, is Schrödinger’s cat alive? [ Deleted]

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.85  TᵢG  replied to  loki12 @1.2.84    2 months ago
TiG @1.2.14Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

Clearly you cannot address this question.  Instead you deflect and go personal.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.86  Gordy327  replied to  loki12 @1.2.84    2 months ago
It’s a bullshit question,

No, it's a straightforward question which requires either a yes or no answer.

FFS try some intellectual honesty for a change, Removed for context - s

Why the need to make things personal?

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.87  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.83    2 months ago
You did not address the question you quoted.   

Another statement without evidence. 

Instead you insult my intelligence and then list a scenario where God changes His mind.   You are stating that an omniscient God (who knows everything, including the repentance) changed His perfect mind based on his creations doing exactly what He knew they would do?

Um, yes. That's what omniscience means, TiG. God did not have to send Jonah to Nineveh. He could have simply destroyed them. You get that, right? But that isn't what He wanted, apparently. He wanted them to be saved. So, He sent them Jonah in order to get the desired results. What, exactly, is the problem?

God knew they would repent before they repented.   You are ignoring that.   

Not at all. I just waited for you to mention it because it suits my purpose. 

No new information came to God yet you argue that a perfect decision made with the same information was changed based on nothing at all.

Hardly. It was based on the repentance of the Ninevites by God's action of sending Jonah. I know you think that because God knew they would repent means they had no choice but to repent, but that's simply your point of view and a rather myopic one at that. Your position is that for God to be omniscient, if God sees what will be then it must be simply because He sees it. I don't believe that is the case. 

Imagine a pool table and a room full of scientists. On that table is one ball. These scientists know that if they strike the ball with a pool stick with force A in direction B it will end up precisely at spot X. It will not end up at X because they know the future. It will end up there because they know, through millions of experiments, everything there is to know about all the factors involved. There isn't a single variable they haven't accounted for.

Now, that's a painfully simplistic example of how I think God knows the future. Let me repeat that. That's one possible way, or one tiny way in a multitude of ways, in which God knows what's going to happen. And, even if I'm correct, it doesn't account for all of it. It doesn't account for the fact that God is free to act as well. Meaning, I doubt the Ninevites repented simply because Jonah showed up at that particular time. Jonah may have simply been the culmination of generations of effort on God's part to bring them to the point where they'd repent.

Regardless, you can't credibly claim that God's change of mind was based on nothing at all. It was based on Nineveh's repentance.  

Drakk, I have been positing that God did know they would repent.    God is omniscient and thus He knows all.   Hello?

Really? Because, until now, you haven't said anything like this. You only do so now because I've pointed out the flaw in your argument and you're trying to save your position, like you always do. And, let's not forget what your overall point is. That praying is pointless because, how did you put it??

Goes to the posit that praying to God to encourage Him to act in a certain way is an act of futility. How could mere human beings ever provide information to an omniscient entity that would persuade it to act other than its plan?   
For those who pray to God to remove the virus, what information are they providing that God did not already possess?

In case you've forgotten, this is what this argument is about. That somehow, prayer is about providing God with information He doesn't have. Everything I've said is to counter this idea.  

You are looking at the contradiction and flat out denying it.    Nothing new here, but it remains an interesting phenomenon.

Or, I simply don't see the contradiction that isn't there. 

When God makes a decision it is perfect.   Since God know everything, every decision is based on all information.   No new information is ever possible.   Thus God would never change His mind;  He already made the perfect decision.

This is getting really, really boring. Please explain how the perfect decision would necessarily involve not having to change His mind.

Or do you wish to argue that God can make imperfect decisions?

No. He doesn't make imperfect decisions. I am perfectly willing to argue that because God can change His mind is not indicative of an imperfect decision, however. As I have been doing. 

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.88  loki12  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.85    2 months ago

Clearly you cannot address the question, is Schrödinger’s cat alive?

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.89  loki12  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.86    2 months ago
No, it's a straightforward question which requires either a yes or no answer.

is Schrödinger’s cat alive?

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.90  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.87    2 months ago
You are stating that an omniscient God (who knows everything, including the repentance) changed His perfect mind based on his creations doing exactly what He knew they would do?
Um, yes. That's what omniscience means, TiG.

Omniscience means that God (who knows everything, including the repentance) changed His perfect mind based on his creations doing exactly what He knew they would do??

God knows all.   Based on all knowledge God made a perfect decision.  Then, later on, based on the exact same all knowledge , God changed from His perfect decision.   Why, with no change in all knowledge would a perfect God change from His perfect decision?

Not at all [ that God knew they would repent before they repented ].   I just waited for you to mention it because it suits my purpose. 

So, per you, an omniscient God did not know his creations would repent?    Equivocating on the meaning of omniscience?

Hardly. It was based on the repentance of the Ninevites by God's action of sending Jonah.

Where is the new information that omniscient God did not have?   An all-knowing entity that somehow gets new information.   Really?

I know you think that because God knew they would repent means they had no choice but to repent,

Deflection .   I am not talking about free will here.  Stick with the question of an omniscient God changing His mind.

There isn't a single variable they haven't accounted for.

Thus it is not possible for a new variable to come into play.   You state your example and then blindly claim that God might have new variables come into play.  

Regardless, you can't credibly claim that God's change of mind was based on nothing at all. It was based on Nineveh's repentance.  

You are then claiming that God did not know the Ninevehs would repent.   That their repentance was new information to God.   Make a choice.  Either God knew or God did not know they would repent.   Which is it?

Because, until now, you haven't said anything like this.

Then you have not paid even the smallest bit of attention to what I have written.   What do you do, scan for keywords and then just write whatever comes to mind?  

That somehow, prayer is about providing God with information He doesn't have.

No, Drakk, that is not the point.   The point is that prayer does not provide God with information he does not have.   Again, you pretend that you do not even understand my point:

TiG @ 1.2.14 ☞ Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

1.   God is defined to be omniscient and perfect
2.   New information is required to change a perfect mind
3.   Prayer does not provide God with anything God did not already know.

⛬   Prayer will never change the mind of an omniscient (and perfect) God

Everything I've said is to counter this idea.  

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif    You cannot even give a straight answer to the question:  does God know everything before it happens or not?   You have the Ninevehs effectively providing new information to an omniscient God and flat out ignore the contradiction.    Just incredible.

Please explain how the perfect decision would necessarily involve not having to change His mind.

Wow.

1.  God knows everything.
2.  God makes a decision with His perfect mind and perfect (complete) knowledge.

Exactly how does God improve upon a perfect decision that took into consideration all knowledge ?   All knowledge means there will never be any new information;  God already knows everything.    What causes the change if all knowledge was considered?

I am perfectly willing to argue that because God can change His mind is not indicative of an imperfect decision, however. As I have been doing. 

A claim is not an argument.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.91  TᵢG  replied to  loki12 @1.2.88    2 months ago
is Schrödinger’s cat alive?

Its life state is in a superposition.   The answer is only known when the wave function is collapsed by observation.

Now what does this have to do with:

TiG @1.2.14 ☞ Will prayer change the mind of an omniscient God?

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.92  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.82    2 months ago

Well stated.  You made my point better than I did

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.93  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  loki12 @1.2.84    2 months ago

great post!  👍👏

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.94  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.86    2 months ago

Loki is right.  

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.95  loki12  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.91    2 months ago

I've seen endless bleating of it's a simple yes or no question, It appears that all questions aren't created equal.  as for your poor attempt of limiting something you obviously don't understand.

It's a question without an answer, God Is. always, so he can't change his mind. what you should have asked "are these examples of a father trying to modify the behavior of his children?" not pray and i will change my mind.    Like, if you do the dishes, (behavior/Sin) you can watch TV. (Reward/blessings on his people)   Unfortunately religious bigotry prevents some from seeing the obvious do to blindness.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.96  TᵢG  replied to  loki12 @1.2.95    2 months ago
God Is. always, so he can't change his mind.

Explain why you hold that God cannot change His mind.  

 
 
 
Drakkonis
1.2.97  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.90    2 months ago
God knows all.   Based on all knowledge God made a perfect decision.  Then, later on, based on the exact same all knowledge , God changed from His perfect decision.   Why, with no change in all knowledge would a perfect God change from His perfect decision?

Last time I'm going to answer this. Because He's interacting with us. It is for our sake, not some imperfection of understanding on His part. 

So, per you, an omniscient God did not know his creations would repent?    Equivocating on the meaning of omniscience?

Um, how do you get this from my waiting for you to bring it up first???

Where is the new information that omniscient God did not have?   An all-knowing entity that somehow gets new information.   Really?

That's your claim, not mine.

Deflection .   I am not talking about free will here.  Stick with the question of an omniscient God changing His mind.

Oh. Well, Gosh! If you say so.

Not.

Thus it is not possible for a new variable to come into play.   You state your example and then blindly claim that God might have new variables come into play.  

Not going to bother any further. You're obviously trying to punch above your pay grade here so you resort to this. 

A little advice. Just because you can't conceiver of anything else doesn't mean what you can conceive of is the truth. 

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.98  loki12  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.96    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.99  TᵢG  replied to  loki12 @1.2.98    2 months ago

You really need to learn how to engage people without getting personal.

Note that you did not answer my question.

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.100  loki12  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.97    2 months ago
Not going to bother any further.

Good advice, I should have learned it last time.

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.101  loki12  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.99    2 months ago
Note that you did not answer my question.

[deleted CoC]

[Omniscience precludes it]

[Meta deleted]

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.102  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @1.2.97    2 months ago
Last time I'm going to answer this. Because He's interacting with us. It is for our sake, not some imperfection of understanding on His part. 

You put forth that as an answer to my question??   Because He is interacting with us?   How does that answer the question:  "Why, with no change in all knowledge would a perfect God change from His perfect decision?"

Amy:  Why is the sky blue?

Bob:   Because leaves gather sunlight.

Bob is not answering Amy's question.  He is replying with an answer to an unasked question.   Just like this from you:

TiG @1.2.90 ☞  God knows all.   Based on all knowledge God made a perfect decision.  Then, later on, based on the exact same all knowledge , God changed from His perfect decision.   Why, with no change in all knowledge would a perfect God change from His perfect decision?
Drakk @1.2.97Because He's interacting with us. It is for our sake, not some imperfection of understanding on His part. 

Is the interaction giving God new information that He did not already have?   Without new information why would God change from a perfect decision?

A little advice.

A little advice, bullshit is not debate.

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.103  TᵢG  replied to  loki12 @1.2.101    2 months ago

Why does omniscience preclude God from changing His mind?

Note, loki, I was asking you to be more specific because you are arguing in favor of the very point that I have been making.

Apparently you do not realize that you have been taking my position on this debate.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.104  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.94    2 months ago

About what, exactly?

 
 
 
loki12
1.2.105  loki12  replied to  loki12 @1.2.101    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.106  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  loki12 @1.2.100    2 months ago

It’s a lesson we believers should all learn when those two visit uplifting seeds.  They exist to make sure no one gets comfort or reassurance or support from said seeds because even in moments of national crisis they have to wage war against believers and the Bible we read and the God we worship.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.107  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.102    2 months ago

I agree and posit that that is what you are using upon us in lieu of rational objective debate. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.108  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.107    2 months ago

Show where I have offered a rebuttal that is not rational or objective.

That way your comment will not simply be a drive-by attack.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.109  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.103    2 months ago

God is all everything and he can both grant us free will in the moment and know millions of years ago everything about my life.  You can say what you want as long as you want and we are going to believe that about our God no matter what you say or do so even though I can’t call one we really are at an impasse and there is no way to resolve it short of you accepting our position about our God.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.110  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.109    2 months ago
God is all everything and he can both grant us free will in the moment and know millions of years ago everything about my life.

A declaration of faith is neither a fact nor is it an argument.

You can say what you want as long as you want and we are going to believe that about our God no matter what you say or do

Of course.

... so even though I can’t call one we really are at an impasse and there is no way to resolve it short of you accepting our position about our God.  

Well I am not trying to convince you of anything regarding your belief.   That is never my objective.   Here we are talking about pure logic.   You are not interested and that is fine with me.  So feel free to stop complaining.

 
 
 
Krishna
1.2.111  Krishna  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.78    2 months ago
There will be no signs and wonders to convince people who approach these matters as you do

Whoa, wait a minute!

I've been approached by God several times-- and each time She presents me with signs and wonders that tell me that you are wrong-- and we are right.

Religion is a system of delusions... don't let yourself get sucked into it. Whaddya want-- to end up a total Maroon like Mike Pence? {gasp} 

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.112  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.110    2 months ago

Clearly some people are not interested in logic. Or logic just eludes them. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.113  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.112    2 months ago

In this case, the logic results in an unacceptable truth.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.114  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.113    2 months ago

Not to mention an emotionally uncomfortable one. 

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.115  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.113    2 months ago

Does Omniscience Contradict Free Will?

Hello,
Christian doctrine holds that God is all knowing (1 John 3:20), and humans have free will (Deuteronomy 30:19 is my favorite example). however, at my favorite apologetics debate board, I have seen skeptics raise an objection to these points several times. the basic logic behind their arguments is this:

  1. A being with free will, given two options A and B, can freely choose between A and B.
  2. God is omniscient (all-knowing).
  3. God knows I will choose A.
  4. God cannot be wrong, since an omniscient being cannot have false knowledge.
  5. From 3 and 4, I will choose A and cannot choose B.
  6. From 1 and 5, omniscience and free will cannot co-exist.

I have read many counter-arguments from apologetics sites, but they were
either too technical (I couldn't understand them), or not satisfying. so, I
was wondering what would your input be on this issue?

Thank you,

Justin

Hi Justin,

Thanks for writing. This is a great question as it shows how even those who appeal to logic can have biases that blind them. Let's examine this argument and see if it follows logically.

Premises 1 and 2 in your outline above are the main premises to the argument and are not disputed. The Christian worldview argues that every human being is a free moral agent and is capable of making choices simply by exercising their will, not under compulsion or because of instinct. Also, it is a long held doctrine of Christianity that God is all-knowing. The Bible says that God knows "the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10)." For omniscience to be truly knowledgeable it must be correct knowledge, so premise number 4 is also granted.

However, point number 5 is where the logic falters. Those who argue in this manner make the mistake of thinking that because God possesses knowledge about a specific matter, then he has influenced it. That does not follow at all. Just because God can foresee which choice you will make, it does not mean you couldn't still freely choose the other option.

Let me give you an example. I have a five year old son. If I were to leave a chocolate chip cookie on the table about a hour before dinner time and my son was to walk by and see it, I know that he would pick up the cookie and eat it. I did not force him to make that decision. In fact, I don't even have to be in the room at all. I think I know my son well enough, though, to tell you that if I come back into the kitchen the cookie will be gone. His act was made completely free of my influence, but I knew what his actions would be.

In examining the argument, the assumption is made in premise 3 that because God knows I will choose A somehow denies me the choice of B. That is the premise that Christianity rejects. Omniscience and free will are not incompatible and it is a non-sequitor to claim otherwise.

Thank you Justin for this interesting question. I pray that you will continue to defend the gospel of our Lord and may He continue to bless you as you seek to grow in Him.   http://www.comereason.org/omniscience-and-free-will.asp

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.117  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.115    2 months ago
However, point number 5 is where the logic falters. Those who argue in this manner make the mistake of thinking that because God possesses knowledge about a specific matter, then he has influenced it. That does not follow at all. Just because God can foresee which choice you will make, it does not mean you couldn't still freely choose the other option.

The author of your link (where you argue by proxy) does what most people seem to do — switch the argument to a claim that omniscient God limits choice rather than determinism (a knowable future) limits choice.   This is why I am careful to explain to people that it does not matter if anyone knows the future.   What matters is if the future is knowable.   This logic has nothing to do with God.

If the future is knowable then all acts in the future are knowable before they occur.   It is as if reality is a movie.   The actors appear to be operating freely, but we know that at 10:35am actor Fred will get a cup of coffee and put in the contents of 1½ creamers.  

If it is possible to know what will happen in the future, then free will is an illusion.   For free will to not be an illusion, the future cannot be knowable.   With free will, the future necessarily would be written in real time and no entity could possibly know what will happen until it happens.

( pause and consider the above before continuing )

It does not matter if any entity knows the future; this includes God.   What matters is if the future is knowable.   God only comes into play because God is said to be omniscient.   For God to be omniscient, the future must be knowable.

The argument of free will contradicting omniscience is not that God would prevent free will.   Rather it is that free will cannot exist if the future is knowable.   God is independent of the argument.  Free will contradicting a knowable future is true even if there is no God.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.118  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.117    2 months ago

However, point number 5 is where the logic falters. Those who argue in this manner make the mistake of thinking that because God possesses knowledge about a specific matter, then he has influenced it. That does not follow at all. Just because God can foresee which choice you will make, it does not mean you couldn't still freely choose the other option.. .. 

 

In examining the argument, the assumption is made in premise 3 that because God knows I will choose A somehow denies me the choice of B. That is the premise that Christianity rejects. Omniscience and free will are not incompatible and it is a non-sequitor to claim otherwise....1.2.115

 
 
 
TᵢG
1.2.119  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.118    2 months ago
In examining the argument, the assumption is made in premise 3 that because God knows I will choose A somehow denies me the choice of B. That is the premise that Christianity rejects. Omniscience and free will are not incompatible and it is a non-sequitor to claim otherwise....1.2.115

Yeah, DJTF#1 that is the flaw in what your proxy argument posits.   When Gordy and I speak of free will and omniscience being mutually exclusive, we are NOT claiming that this is because God knowing will deny the choice.    You have missed the point entirely.

If you are going to debate (or use a proxy to debate for you) then at least understand the actual argument you are attempting to rebut.   You are rebutting something different than what has been posited. 

I just explained this to you @1.2.117.    Clearly you did not read my explanation before blindly re-quoting from your proxy.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.120  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.118    2 months ago

If God knows, with 100% certainty, that you will choose A rather than B, then there is no real choice. You are predetermined to choose A. The "choice" between A or B is an illusion. You might think you're making a choice. But because God already knows what you're going to choose, you will not be able to choose anything different than what God knows you'll choose. Unless god is mistaken in which choice you'll make. So there really is no free will if God is omniscient and knows everything, including what you will "choose." That's simple logic.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.121  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @1.2.120    2 months ago

Blah blah blah rinse, lather, repeat....

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.2.122  Texan1211  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.121    2 months ago

Here, let me sum up the argument:

You believe in God. There is no proof of God sufficient for them to believe, so therefore you must be an ignorant fool and must be told so daily on any article even remotely dealing with God or religion. You are illogical, and proof of that is how many times they tell you that.

Why waste time with them? They won't change your mind, and you won't change their mind.

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.123  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @1.2.122    2 months ago

You are right of course. Did you see the topic of the seeded article?  It was about providing values and hope to our teens in a time of crisis and look what these heartless secularists have done to it.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.124  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.121    2 months ago
Blah blah blah rinse, lather, repeat....

Your typical intellectually dishonest tactic. You can't argue or refute the logic presented, so you bury your head in the sand and immaturely dismiss it. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
1.2.125  Thrawn 31  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.115    2 months ago

Does Omniscience Contradict Free Will?

Yes. If everything is predetermined then free will is an illusion. The only way omniscience can be possible is if everything is predetermined. If something (anything) is not known, then by definition a being is not omniscient. Thus for a being to be omniscient then everything must already be known, thus predetermined, and as such free will does not exist. "Free Will" is making the choices you were already destined to make. 

Omniscience and Free Will cannot coexist. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
1.2.126  Thrawn 31  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.115    2 months ago
because God possesses knowledge about a specific matter, then he has influenced it. That does not follow at all. Just because God can foresee which choice you will make, it does not mean you couldn't still freely choose the other option.

But he would have to know that too to be omniscient. If he does not KNOW beforehand what option you will choose then that being is not omniscient and thus not God. 

I have a five year old son. If I were to leave a chocolate chip cookie on the table about a hour before dinner time and my son was to walk by and see it, I know that he would pick up the cookie and eat it. I did not force him to make that decision. In fact, I don't even have to be in the room at all. I think I know my son well enough, though, to tell you that if I come back into the kitchen the cookie will be gone. His act was made completely free of my influence, but I knew what his actions would be.

Total bullshit. By setting the stage you exerted influence, and by providing all the materials and motivation that could be considered entrapment. This is retardation in its highest form. 

If it is possible to know what will happen in the future, then free will is an illusion.   For free will to not be an illusion, the future cannot be knowable.   With free will, the future necessarily would be written in real time and no entity could possibly know what will happen until it happens.

( pause and consider the above before continuing )

It does not matter if any entity knows the future; this includes God.   What matters is if the future is knowable.   God only comes into play because God is said to be omniscient.   For God to be omniscient, the future must be knowable.

The argument of free will contradicting omniscience is not that God would prevent free will.   Rather it is that free will cannot exist if the future is knowable.   God is independent of the argument.  Free will contradicting a knowable future is true even if there is no God.

So god is irrelevant? 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
1.2.127  Thrawn 31  replied to  Texan1211 @1.2.122    2 months ago
You believe in God.

Why?

There is no proof of God sufficient for them to believe, so therefore you must be an ignorant fool and must be told so daily on any article even remotely dealing with God or religion.

So, why?

You are illogical, and proof of that is how many times they tell you that.

Do you have a logical explanation?

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.128  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Thrawn 31 @1.2.127    2 months ago

God is real.  He is all knowing and all powerful.  He is the of the universe and of us in His image.  He gave his intelligent creations free will to chose our actions and whether we are going to love and obey Him or not.  I don’t expect frail mortal sinful humanity to logically understand the power and majesty of an infinite being like God living here on this tiny spec of the universe.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.129  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.2.128    2 months ago
God is real.  He is all knowing and all powerful.  He is the of the universe and of us in His image.  

That's nice. Prove it!

He gave his intelligent creations free will to chose our actions and whether we are going to love and obey Him or not.

There is no free will if god is omniscient.

 I don’t expect frail mortal sinful humanity to logically understand the power and majesty of an infinite being like God living here on this tiny spec of the universe.  

There is no logic to mere belief and empty claims.

 
 
 
SteevieGee
1.3  SteevieGee  replied to  Heartland American @1    2 months ago

Spiritually healthy?   Is that what they're calling brainwashed now?

 
 
 
Split Personality
2  Split Personality    2 months ago

"forced Sabbath" is an oxymoron...

 
 
 
devangelical
2.1  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @2    2 months ago

I see lots of prime business real estate in residential neighborhoods auctioned off in the near future.

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.1.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @2.1    2 months ago

These kind of crisis’ tend to bring more people back to God than drive people away from Him. So no there won’t be any church buildings up for sale as you hope anytime soon

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.1.1    2 months ago
These kind of crisis’ tend to bring more people back to God than drive people away from Him. So no there won’t be any church buildings up for sale as you hope anytime soon

Like I said before, people tend to become irrational, emotional, and hysterical in times of crisis.

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.1.3  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @2.1.2    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.1.3    2 months ago
People repenting of their sins and asking God to restore the health of the nation is not irrational.  It is what we believers are directed to do. 2 Chronicles 7:13-15

Believing some deity will cure a disease is irrational. It's a fear based response.

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.1.5  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @2.1.4    2 months ago

No it’s not.  It’s a rational faith.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.1.6  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.1.5    2 months ago
No it’s not.

Yes, it is! Something bad happens like a disease, and people suddenly start praying more as a means to escape or cure it. That is clearly a fear based response, and therefore, an irrational reaction.

 It’s a rational faith.  

An oxymoron.

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.1.7  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @2.1.6    2 months ago

Oh what ever.  We’re done too.  You are in no position to sit in judgement over our faith and beliefs here.  

 
 
 
Krishna
2.1.8  Krishna  replied to  Heartland American @2.1.5    2 months ago
It’s a rational faith.

BTW, "rational faith" is also an Oxymoron!

(For some strange reason these sorts of discussions tend to bring all sorts of morons out of the woodwork...so to speak!)

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.1.9  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.1.7    2 months ago
Oh what ever.  We’re done too.  

In other words, you can't refute anything I said. Got it!

You are in no position to sit in judgement over our faith and beliefs here.  

Is that what you think I'm doing? Too funny. I didn't judge anything. I simply offered a fact. Or do you deny that people do resort to praying more when bad events occur?

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.1.10  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Heartland American @2.1.5    2 months ago

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.1.11  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @2.1.4    2 months ago

Those are the wisest words for America right now even if the haters can’t stand the sight of them.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.1.12  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @2.1.9    2 months ago

You have only your opinion as vile as I think it to be.  No facts at all.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.1.13  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.1.12    2 months ago

Just another empty declaration on your part. You still haven't refuted anything I said. Not to mention you didn't answer my question. Just morenter evasion. What's "vile" are your debate tactics. But then, it's not unexpected when you have no valid argument or point to make.

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.1.14  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.1.11    2 months ago

There's nothing wise about wishful thinking. It might make one feel better or provide comfort.  But it won't actually solve anything.

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Split Personality @2    2 months ago

It is in the traditional sense and from a religious perspective.  How ever the present circumstances are quite real and we should use the time on our hands for good purposes including introspection, prayer, faith, repentance, as well as building family bonds and taking care of our yard and home.  

 
 
 
Split Personality
2.2.1  Split Personality  replied to  Heartland American @2.2    2 months ago
and taking care of our yard and home.

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.2  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Split Personality @2.2.1    2 months ago

are you suggesting we can’t do secular things as well as religious things during our isolation from our ordinary life? 

 
 
 
Krishna
2.2.3  Krishna  replied to  Heartland American @2.2    2 months ago
How ever the present circumstances are quite real and we should use the time on our hands for good purposes including introspection, prayer, faith, repentance, as well as building family bonds and taking care of our yard and home.

And in addition to that...trying to get the morons (whether Oxygenated or not) in our gov't to supply the needed masks and respirators, on a timely basis, ain't such a bad idea either)

 
 
 
Krishna
2.2.4  Krishna  replied to  Split Personality @2.2.1    2 months ago
and taking care of our yard and home.

Well its a dirty job...but someone's got to do it!

 
 
 
Krishna
2.3  Krishna  replied to  Split Personality @2    2 months ago
forced Sabbath" is an oxymoron...

An oxymoron indeed... and only an Onomatopoeia would ever believe in it!

 
 
 
Heartland American
3  seeder  Heartland American    2 months ago

Backing President Donald Trump’s decision to make Sunday a National Day of Prayer to address the coronavirus outbreak, Housing and Urban Development Secretary Dr. Ben Carson on Saturday underlined the importance of prayer and faith in maintaining America’s greatness.

Talking about the coronavirus, or COVID-19, during  President Trump’s press briefing  at the White House Saturday, Carson said he hoped that Americans “can use this as an opportunity to pull together for good.”

“President Trump is going to be recommending a national day of prayer. And you know, we’ve gotten away from prayer and faith a lot in this country,” he said.

“There’s nothing wrong with godly principles, no matter what your faith is — loving your neighbor — caring about the people around you,” he continued. “Developing your God-given talents to the utmost, so you become valuable to the people around you. Having values and principles that guide your life. Those are things that made America zoom to the top of the world in record time — and those are the things that will keep us there too.”

On Friday evening, the president declared Sunday as a National Day of Prayer.

“It is my great honor to declare Sunday, March 15th as a National Day of Prayer. We are a Country that, throughout our history, has looked to God for protection and strength in times like these,” the president wrote on Twitter. “No matter where you may be, I encourage you to turn towards prayer in an act of faith. Together, we will easily PREVAIL!”

Since 1988, the first Sunday of March has been designated as a National Day of Prayer each year. Trump urged that the event be used this year to pray for protection from the coronavirus pandemic.  https://www.christianpost.com/politics/dr-ben-carson-talks-about-national-day-of-prayer-at-coronavirus-press-briefing.html

 
 
 
devangelical
3.1  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @3    2 months ago

praying the pandemic away will probably work as well as anything POS/POTUS has done so far...

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.1.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @3.1    2 months ago

The President has done a good job in dealing with the China exported Wuhan virus.  His and his commissions leadership has been vital as most Americans now agree. And yes prayer and not just for a day is a vital part of our response.

 
 
 
Split Personality
3.2  Split Personality  replied to  Heartland American @3    2 months ago

Oh for goodness sake. That was announced 7 days ago. 

It accomplished nothing.

The disease is still spreading according to the laws of nature as designed by this planet.

It will run it's course just as every other plague has throughout the history of life on this planet.

97% will eventually get the new strain and survive . The others will die.  End of story.

No conspiracy. No angels.  The good people died the same as evil people died.

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Split Personality @3.2    2 months ago

The difference is that the good people died having the assurance of salvation and eternal life.....

 
 
 
Split Personality
3.2.2  Split Personality  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.1    2 months ago

Really?  Now you speak for Muslims, Jews, Buddhists as well? 

74% of the world population is NOT Christian and do not necessarily share your beliefs of "salvation"...

 
 
 
devangelical
3.2.3  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.1    2 months ago

most good people don't need to be forgiven once a week, 52 weeks a year.

 
 
 
MUVA
3.2.4  MUVA  replied to  devangelical @3.2.3    2 months ago

My wife disagrees.

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.5  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Split Personality @3.2.2    2 months ago

All who were “good” living their lives according to the best light they have been shown by the only God there is regardless of their religion in life will be saved and restored to eternal life.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.6  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @3.2.3    2 months ago

True.  We need to be forgiven multiple times daily every day as long as we shall live as we are fallen sinful human beings 

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.7  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.6    2 months ago
We need to be forgiven multiple times daily every day as long as we shall live as we are fallen sinful human beings 

That's your god's fault. He allowed it to happen. He supposedly created everything with full foreknowledge of what would happen, but didn't change anything, and instead blames us. Hmph, some god! jrSmiley_84_smiley_image.gif  

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.8  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.7    2 months ago
That's your god's fault. He allowed it to happen. He supposedly created everything with full foreknowledge of what would happen, but didn't change anything, and instead blames us. Hmph, some god!   

That's rather interesting--you blaming something you don't even believe exists for problems.

BTW, ever hear of free will?

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.9  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.8    2 months ago
That's rather interesting--you blaming something you don't even believe exists for problems.

Whether I believe or not is irrelevant. It's an analysis. Those who believe god has a plan or everything occurs because god wills it or knows about it, then blame does rest with god for all the problems that occur. After all, the buck stops at god.

BTW, ever hear of free will?

Not possible if god is omniscient.

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.10  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.7    2 months ago

It’s not His fault we use our free will to do wrong things.  He’s not responsible for my acts or yours.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.11  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.9    2 months ago

According to your limited understanding of God and his real nature and power.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.12  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.11    2 months ago

Do you claim to know the mind of God?   From where, the Bible?

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.13  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.10    2 months ago
It’s not His fault we use our free will to do wrong things.  He’s not responsible for my acts or yours.  

Yes, it is his fault. He supposedly created us knowing full will what we would do, long before we "chose" to do anything. Then he gets angry about it? Do you not see the logical inconsistency here? And as has been said before, the buck stops with god.  Besides, an omniscient deity negates the possibility of free will.

According to your limited understanding of God and his real nature and power.  

And do you presume to actually understand god and his nature?

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.14  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Split Personality @3.2    2 months ago

You have no idea how prayers of repentance and people turning back to God might if that happens mitigate the spread and effect of the plague or the lack there of may cause it to run its natural course.  I hope the nation goes with the former.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.15  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.9    2 months ago

Not only is it possible.  It is.  Period.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.16  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.12    2 months ago

I don’t claim that.  Unlike you, I don’t go around placing my mortal sinful limited understanding as some sort of boundary as to what is possible for an all knowing all powerful, be everywhere at once God who created all that is and created and or wrote the laws that govern everything that exists to be able to do.  And that includes God being all knowing and giving his creation free will.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.17  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.13    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.18  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.16    2 months ago
I don’t claim that.  

Then you should not arrogantly deem others to have a limited understanding of God and promote yourself as understanding "God and his real nature and power".  

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.19  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.16    2 months ago
Unlike you, I don’t go around placing my mortal sinful limited understanding as some sort of boundary as to what is possible for an all knowing all powerful, be everywhere at once God who created all that is and created and or wrote the laws that govern everything that exists to be able to do.

I do not do that either.  Pay attention to what I write rather than invent your own meaning.

I am focusing on the definition of God and applying logic to the definition.   See?    God is defined by the Bible as omniscient and perfect.   Do you agree?   If so, then a perfect God that knows everything and who thus makes perfect decisions based on perfect knowledge would never have any reason to change His mind.

Logic based on how God is defined.   This has nothing whatsoever to do with a real sentient creator (that may or may not exist).   It is all about a particular God as defined by a particular source (in this case, the Christian God as defined by the Bible).

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.20  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.15    2 months ago
Not only is it possible.  It is.  Period.

Because you say so is not convincing or persuasive. Just because you believe it is possible doesn't mean it's so. Especially since it's not from a logical standpoint.

You have no idea how prayers of repentance and people turning back to God might if that happens mitigate the spread and effect of the plague or the lack there of may cause it to run its natural course. 

It won't! Prayer won't stop the spread of Covid. Only adequate precautions and scientifically derived remedies will.

Then I guess when you are on the wrong side of the walls of New Jerusalem on judgement day, you can t

Emotional platitudes are meaningless. And you still didn't answer my question. Just more deflection as usual.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.21  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.9    2 months ago
Whether I believe or not is irrelevant. It's an analysis.

Uh, huh, Sure it is. LMAO!

Those who believe god has a plan or everything occurs because god wills it or knows about it, then blame does rest with god for all the problems that occur. 

Comments like that give me reason to suspect that you don't know any religious people. How many do you ACTUALLY know that would swallow THAT bullshit? How many religious people do you know that blame God for all that is wrong?

Not possible if god is omniscient.

Of course it is possible, Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it so.

And no, I am not interested in some long drawn out argument over it.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.22  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.21    2 months ago
I am not interested in some long drawn out argument over it.

Which is probably why you do not understand that Gordy is correct about free will being logically impossible if the future is knowable.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.23  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.21    2 months ago
Uh, huh, Sure it is. LMAO!

Yes, it is!

Comments like that give me reason to suspect that you don't know any religious people. How many do you ACTUALLY know that would swallow THAT bullshit? How many religious people do you know that blame God for all that is wrong?

Many religious people will no doubt consider god to be blameless or give him a free pass and make excuses for god. That just shows a bias and/or intellectual dishonesty on their part. They won't even consider the possibility that god is to blame or screwed up, much less that their beliefs might be wrong. 

Of course it is possible,

Explain how so then!

Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it so.

It's not about what I believe. Neither have I mentioned my beliefs. It's about what is logically feasible.

And no, I am not interested in some long drawn out argument over it.

Then why reply or bring it up?

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.24  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.22    2 months ago
Which is probably why you do not understand that Gordy is correct about free will being logically impossible if the future is knowable.

I am sure that is what you believe.

Good for you!

Please don't be so presumptuous as to attempt to tell me what I understand. You don't know me.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.25  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.23    2 months ago
Yes, it is!

Okay, whatever you say. LMAO!

Many religious people will no doubt consider god to be blameless or give him a free pass and make excuses for god. That just shows a bias and/or intellectual dishonesty on their part. They won't even consider the possibility that god is to blame or screwed up, much less that their beliefs might be wrong. 

Sure doesn't jibe with your earlier proclamation:

 Those who believe god has a plan or everything occurs because god wills it or knows about it, then blame does rest with god for all the problems that occur.

You should probably pick one argument or another.

Explain how so then!

It has been explained to you many times. Not going to waste time with such trifling nonsense again. It won't change your mind, and it damn sure won't change mine. See, I can leave it at that. Can you?

It's not about what I believe. Neither have I mentioned my beliefs. It's about what is logically feasible.

R-i--g-h-t.

Still attempting to apply human logic to a Greater Power? LMAO!

Then why reply or bring it up?

Because I wanted to. Is that a problem?

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.26  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.24    2 months ago
Please don't be so presumptuous as to attempt to tell me what I understand.

You just told the site that you do not understand that free will and omniscience cannot both exist:

Texan @3.2.21 ☞ Of course it is possible, ...

You 'believe' this is possible.   You therefore do not understand that it is impossible.  As I noted.   Since you have also stated no interest in further discussion, your belief will simply linger on.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.27  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.26    2 months ago
You just told the site that you do not understand that free will and omniscience cannot both exist:

That statement is a blatant lie. I did no such thing and stated no such thing.

In fact, I don't recall saying that I didn't understand anything. And looking back at my posts, I am positive of that fact. Surely you can quote me saying I didn't understand?

You 'believe' this is possible.

Yes, I believe I made myself abundantly clear on that. You don't believe that it is possible--I get that.

You therefore do not understand that it is impossible.  

Once again (sigh), you claim I don't understand when you don't have a clue about me. 

your belief will simply linger on.

As will yours.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.28  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.27    2 months ago
That statement is a blatant lie. I did no such thing and stated no such thing.

How can you make such an accusation?   I explained to you exactly why I made my note and quoted you.   

Look at the sequence:

  • Texan @ 3.2.8 BTW, ever hear of free will ?
  • Gordy @ 3.2.9 Not possible if god is omniscient .
  • Texan @ 3.2.21  ☞ Of course it is possible , ...

So set the record straight.   Is it possible for free will and omniscience to coexist?  Or is it impossible?

Your misunderstanding that these can logically coexist seems rather clear from the context, but if you think otherwise then state your position.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.29  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.28    2 months ago
How can you make such an accusation?   

Not an accusation. It is a fact.

I explained to you exactly why I made my note and quoted you.   

What you claimed is a lie. I said absolutely nothing about not understanding it. While true that we may not agree on it, that does not invalidate my opinion just because you don't agree with me.

So set the record straight.   Is it possible for free will and omniscience to coexist?  Or is it impossible

I believe my views are abundantly clear and easily recognized by anyone looking here. Why keep asking the same thing over and over when you already know my answer?

Your misunderstanding that these can logically coexist seems rather clear from the context, but if you think otherwise then state your position.

Once again, you attempting to declare what it is I understand or don't understand.

SMMFH

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.30  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.19    2 months ago

I’m frankly no longer interested in anything you have to say about God or religion and will simply impasse you on sight as soon as you post enough that I can do so after engaging you as little as possible per rules to do so and if stopped I’ll simply ignore you site wide on everything.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.31  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.20    2 months ago

Ditto

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.32  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.29    2 months ago

Texan, you wrote your position.   I noted your position along with a quote from you and my explanation.    You declared my interpretation a lie.   I gave you a detailed context of quotes showing that my interpretation is straightforward.   But even then I asked you to set the record straight since you know your position better than anyone else.

You refuse to set the record straight and just double down on accusations and venom.

You used a lot of words complaining and accusing yet in a mere fraction of the words you typed you could have simply corrected my misunderstanding (if indeed I misunderstood).

Is it possible for free will and omniscience to coexist?  

Seems to me your position is 'yes'.    Just as I noted.   Did I misunderstand you?    Is your position (somehow) 'no'?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.2.33  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.30    2 months ago
I’m frankly no longer interested in anything you have to say about God or religion and will simply impasse you on sight as soon as you post enough that I can do so after engaging you as little as possible per rules to do so and if stopped I’ll simply ignore you site wide on everything.  

You can not use impasse as a way to avoid a person. It will result in a ticket. You can ignore. That is up to you. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.34  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.32    2 months ago
Texan, you wrote your position.   I noted your position along with a quote from you and my explanation.    You declared my interpretation a lie.   I gave you a detailed context of quotes showing that my interpretation is straightforward.   But even then I asked you to set the record straight since you know your position better than anyone else.

You stated : You just told the site that you do not understand that free will and omniscience cannot both exist:

And I stated that is a lie, because I stated no such thing.

You refuse to set the record straight and just double down on accusations and venom.

I didn't accuse you of anything. The record is straight, if you bother to read the whole series of posts. Whether you get it or not isn't any of my business.

Is it possible for free will and omniscience to coexist?  

I believe so. Really, I just can't make it any plainer for you.

Seems to me your position is 'yes'.    Just as I noted.   Did I misunderstand you?    Is your position (somehow) 'no'?

Asked and answered.

Good night!

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.35  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.34    2 months ago
I believe so [that it is possible for free will and omniscience to coexist]

So I did not misunderstand you.   You publicly wrote that you believe free will and omniscience can coexist.  

That, Texan, is a public declaration from you that you do not understand that they logically cannot coexist.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.36  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.35    2 months ago
So I did not misunderstand you.   You publicly wrote that you believe free will and omniscience can coexist. 

Again?  YES. What part aren't you getting here? Why keep asking the same thing over and over? Give it a rest, FFS.

That, Texan, is a public declaration from you that you do not understand that they logically cannot coexist.

You are completely free to interpret as you like.

How you interpret things is no business of mine.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.37  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.36    2 months ago

I interpreted your comment correctly yet you took us through all this nonsense.   All that snark and venom and my interpretation was correct all along.


  1. If the future is knowable that means it is possible to know what you will do before you do it.
  2. If it is possible to know what you will do before you do it, then how is your future action free will?   If it is possible to know that you will grab a beer at 7:35pm and leave it with 3 untouched  tablespoons at the bottom, then where is your free will to do otherwise?   If you could do otherwise then the future would NOT be knowable.   A deterministic future precludes free will.
  3. If God is omniscient, then the future is knowable.   Obviously, since the future would have to be knowable for any entity (including God) to know it.

⛬  Free will and omniscience (by any entity) are mutually exclusive.   They cannot coexist.

 
 
 
sixpick
3.2.38  sixpick  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.9    2 months ago
BTW, ever hear of free will?
Not possible if god is omniscient.

Free Will is your ability to choose to have faith in God or you can choose to turn from God and live apart from Him.  You don't have to believe in God to be a good person and you don't have to be a good person to believe in God.

That's Free Will.  It has nothing to do with God being Omnipresent.  It has everything to do with the way you live your life.  You can be a believer if you want to or you don't have to be believer. 

You can go out and save people or you can go out and kill people.  Even people who believe in God do both of these.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.39  TᵢG  replied to  sixpick @3.2.38    2 months ago
That's Free Will.  It has nothing to do with God being Omnipresent.

Omnipresence is not the quality in question, it is omniscience.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.40  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.37    2 months ago
I interpreted your comment correctly yet you took us through all this nonsense.   All that snark and venom and my interpretation was correct all along.

That is rather laughable.

If the future is knowable that means it is possible to know what you will do before you do it.
If it is possible to know what you will do before you do it, then how is your future action free will?   If it is possible to know that you will grab a beer at 7:35pm and leave it with 3 untouched  tablespoons at the bottom, then where is your free will to do otherwise?   If you could do otherwise then the future would NOT be knowable.   A deterministic future precludes free will.
If God is omniscient, then the future is knowable.   Obviously, since the future would have to be knowable for any entity (including God) to know it.
⛬  Free will and omniscience (by any entity) are mutually exclusive.   They cannot coexist.

I'm sure you think that is all true. That's great!

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.41  Gordy327  replied to  sixpick @3.2.38    2 months ago
Free Will is your ability to choose to have faith in God or you can choose to turn from God and live apart from Him. 

But if god already knows what we'll do before we even do it, there is no way to do something different than what god already knows what will happen. Therefore, there is no free will. The outcome is already known and will occur well in advance.

You don't have to believe in God to be a good person and you don't have to be a good person to believe in God.

That's irrelevant and has nothing to do with with omniscience.

That's Free Will.  It has nothing to do with God being Omnipresent.  It has everything to do with the way you live your life.  You can be a believer if you want to or you don't have to be believer. 

Free will, or its possibility has to do with god being omniscient. If god is omniscient, then there is no such thing as free will. Free will is only possible if god is not omniscient.

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.42  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.35    2 months ago

They co exist whether you like it or not but feel free to waste bandwidth trying to get us to sell our God short and deny that He can give us both free will in the moment of our choice and ultimately be aware of what choice we will make.  .  

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.43  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.25    2 months ago
Okay, whatever you say.

Yes, that is what I say!

Sure doesn't jibe with your earlier proclamation:

What do my statements have to do with each other?

It has been explained to you many times.

As has the logical contradiction regarding omniscience and free will been explained to you.

Not going to waste time with such trifling nonsense again.

Because you can't logically refute it!

It won't change your mind, and it damn sure won't change mine.

Provide a compelling, logical argument, and you might have better success.

See, I can leave it at that. Can you?

Nope. I'll point out logical errors wherever I find them.

R-i--g-h-t.

Yes, that's RIGHT!

Still attempting to apply human logic to a Greater Power? LMAO!

Still making excuse for the so called higher power?

Because I wanted to. Is that a problem?

And yet, you say you're "not interested in some long drawn out argument over it." Too funny.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.44  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.42    2 months ago
They co exist whether you like it or not ...

This is not a question of like or dislike, but rather basic logic.

... but feel free to waste bandwidth trying to get us to sell our God short and deny that He can give us both free will in the moment of our choice and ultimately be aware of what choice we will make. 

Actually this has nothing to do with God either.   Pretend there is no God.   It would still be the case that a knowable future and free will are mutually exclusive.    Even if no entity actually knows the future, the existence of a knowable (and thus deterministic) future precludes free will.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.45  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.42    2 months ago
They co exist whether you like it or not

A logical impossibility. 

 but feel free to waste bandwidth trying to get us to sell our God short and deny that He can give us both free will in the moment of our choice and ultimately be aware of what choice we will make.  . 

We already know you and other make excuses for your god or give him a free pass on anything, even if it means suspending all logic and rationality.

Ditto

Another deflection noted.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.46  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.43    2 months ago

Panning for gold. 

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.47  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.13    2 months ago

Non believers always want to blame God for the natural consequences of their own bad choices.  Blaming God is a substitute for taking personal responsibility for ones actions

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.48  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.19    2 months ago

quit talking down to me like as if you are any more intelligent than any other member here.  Take your condescending arrogance to someone who cares.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.49  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.47    2 months ago

You keep opining.

Non believers do not want to blame God.   Non believers do not believe God exists.   There literally is no entity to blame.

The discussion was about the definition of the Christian God.   Per that definition (omnipotent, omniscient and perfect, among other attributes) God is in sole control of His plan and everything that happens is a direct or indirect result of God's perfect decisions.

It is not a blame God really, but more of a God is ultimately responsible for everything (by definition).

Odd that you would not realize that.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.50  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.48    2 months ago

You probably should focus on making comments on content rather than go personal.    And certainly do not presume to know what is in the mind of others and then make such ugly accusations.

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.51  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.45    2 months ago

Oh whatever!  Feel free to believe whatever you want.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.52  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.49    2 months ago

Feel free to believe whatever you want.  I don’t care what you think about this topic of the Vice President urging people to support faith based charities with our tithe and to pray for our country and our leaders during this crisis along with all the precautions recommended.  Try to stay on topic next time.    

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.53  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.50    2 months ago

Oh that’s right.  You just want to tell anyone who prays regarding our current situation that they are being illogical and that they can expect nothing tangible from God as a result of prayer.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.54  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.53    2 months ago

Will prayer change the mind of God?

Will God decide to eradicate the virus because people ask him to?

That presumes that God needs coaxing or that prayer somehow provides God with information that He did not have.

Don't you think that is arrogant?   To hold that mere human beings could possibly offer something that would influence the perfect decisions of a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent creator?

Praying to God for strength in coping with the virus is one thing.   Praying to try to influence God is illogical based on how God is defined.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.55  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.47    2 months ago
Non believers always want to blame God for the natural consequences of their own bad choices.  Blaming God is a substitute for taking personal responsibility for ones actions

Our actions or choices are already pre-determined if one believes everything happens according to god's plan or if one's god is omniscient. Therefore, god is ultimately to blame for what happens. It's simple logic. Odd how some are quick to praise god when good things happen, but equally quick to give him a pass when bad things happen.

quit talking down to me like as if you are any more intelligent than any other member here

Based on the content and quality of posts, I'd say TiG is most certainly more intelligent than many other members here.

Oh whatever!  Feel free to believe whatever you want.  

Wow, what a well thought out reply >sarc<. My post wasn't about belief.

You just want to tell anyone who prays regarding our current situation that they are being illogical and that they can expect nothing tangible from God as a result of prayer.

Expecting tangible or altered outcomes from prayer, when it has never been demonstrated that prayer produces such effects (i.e. curing diseases) is illogical. It's an emotional reaction to  situation.

 
 
 
devangelical
3.2.56  devangelical  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.55    2 months ago

hand them a bucket and a brush, stand back, watch them paint themselves into the corner

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.57  Gordy327  replied to  devangelical @3.2.56    2 months ago

Indeed. 

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.58  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.26    2 months ago

Because you don’t have a prayer trying to eradicate it.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.59  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.58    2 months ago

What is the belief Texan and I were referring to?   Do you know?

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.60  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.55    2 months ago

 
 
 
Split Personality
3.2.61  Split Personality  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.60    2 months ago

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.63  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.43    2 months ago
Yes, that is what I say!

Yes. Exactly what I stated. Very good!

What do my statements have to do with each other?

If you can't see it, it is highly doubtful anything I could say would enlighten you on that.

As has the logical contradiction regarding omniscience and free will been explained to you.

Well, then, perhaps it is best if we end our little discussion.

Because you can't logically refute it!

Failure to see the logic isn't MY problem--it is yours and yours alone.

Provide a compelling, logical argument, and you might have better success.

Really not interested in changing your mind. It just isn't that important to me.

Nope. I'll point out logical errors wherever I find them.

Of course you will.

Yes, that's RIGHT!

Once again, exactly what I stated. No need to parrot me.

Still making excuse for the so called higher power?

I have never made any excuse for God. The mere idea is preposterous. Are you still lying about what I stated?

And yet, you say you're "not interested in some long drawn out argument over it." 

Yes, and NOW you have quoted me accurately. Congrats!

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.64  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.63    2 months ago

Well said.  It’s really sad that they can’t accept that we believe God is omniscient and that he gave us free will to make our own choices.  I refuse to call God a liar or to underestimate His true power and majesty by placing mortal sinful human limitations on an all powerful God we can’t imagine the power of.  We know of His love for us but even that understanding is limited by our incapacity to really understand such awesome power

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.65  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.64    2 months ago
 It’s really sad that they can’t accept that we believe God is omniscient and that he gave us free will to make our own choices.

Not sure anyone here is denying the fact that you believe this.   The question really is not whether or not you believe something, but rather if the belief is logical.   In this case, the belief that free will can coexist with a knowable future is a logical contradiction.

But I doubt anyone here thinks you do not believe free will and omniscience can coexist.   You believe evolution is pseudoscience — a worldwide conspiracy perpetrated by godless scientists.   What one believes is personal and not really important.   What is important is what one can demonstrate as true (or at least close to truth).

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.66  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.65    2 months ago

See @1.2.115 

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.67  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.66    2 months ago
 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.69  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.63    2 months ago
If you can't see it, it is highly doubtful anything I could say would enlighten you on that.

You evaded the question.

Well, then, perhaps it is best if we end our little discussion.

I suppose it is.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.70  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.69    2 months ago
You evaded the question.

You already know what I think, and I know what you think. Do you need it all spelled out for you again? Why?

What you consider evading is of no interest to me.

I suppose it is.

No need to parrot me again.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.71  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.70    2 months ago

You're still evading and making presumptions now. And I'm not parroting you. I was agreeing with you. Funny how you say we're done and yet, you continue to respond.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.72  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.71    2 months ago
You're still evading

That is a blatant lie.

and making presumptions now.

And another lie.

And I'm not parroting you.

Well, what do you call it when someone repeats your posts back to you? I call it parroting, but perhaps you have another word for it. I don't care either way.

I was agreeing with you. 

Yes, precisely, which is why I stated there was no need to parrot me.

 Funny how you say we're done and yet, you continue to respond.

Some people are easily amused.

Here. please take the last words--I realize how important it is to you!

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.73  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.72    2 months ago
That is a blatant lie.

I asked a serious question and all you respond with is snark and no answer. That's evasion.

And another lie.

Nope. Here is what you said: "You already know what I think, and I know what you think." That's just a presumption. You don't know what I'm thinking and I can't read your mind. So rather than playing these games, simply answer the question!

Well, what do you call it when someone repeats your posts back to you? I call it parroting, but perhaps you have another word for it. I don't care either way

It's called a reply.

Yes, precisely, which is why I stated there was no need to parrot me.

An affirmation is not parroting. I'm not repeating you verbatim.

Some people are easily amused.

And apparently some just like to troll and dodge questions and such.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.74  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.73    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.75  Texan1211  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.74    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.76  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.75    2 months ago

Some will never let it go that we believe that God gave us free will and is all knowing. According to some since God knew millions of years ago that I was going to write this message he’s making me do it right now.  Lol!😀🤔

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.77  Texan1211  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.76    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.78  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.76    2 months ago
Some will never let it go that we believe that God gave us free will and is all knowing.

And yet you still don't understand or ignore the logical contradiction of having free will with an omniscient god.

According to some since God knew millions of years ago that I was going to write this message he’s making me do it right now.

I doubt god is making you do anything. You were simply fated to do it from the get go. So you never really had a choice to write a message or not.

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.79  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @3.2.77    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.80  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.78    2 months ago

The power of God is so far beyond the capabilities of fallen mortal man to understand using the limits of our limited logic and intelligence.  That a human would apply our “logic” to a being that always has and always will exist who is all powerful all knowing, everywhere at once is just laughable to us believers.  Godless secularists trying to but God into boxes of their construct to argue with believers is what is truly illogical 

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.81  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.78    2 months ago

according to Tig, God knew eons ago that I would type that message so therefore according to him I had no free will not to have done it.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.82  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.81    2 months ago

Wrong.   According to the Bible, not TiG.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.83  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.80    2 months ago
That a human would apply our “logic” to a being that always has and always will exist who is all powerful all knowing, everywhere at once is just laughable to us believers.

Again you misunderstand.   This is not logic applied to God, this is logic applied to how God is defined per religion.   Do you not see how these are profoundly different things?

Even if a God exists, a given definition of God (by human beings) could contradict itself and thus be wrong.   That does not mean that God does not exist, it just means that God per that definition cannot exist.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.84  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.79    2 months ago
It’s only ok for liberals to taunt us with them, not the other way around.

Since when? And who's taunting specifically?

Notice that only Christians get our comments deleted on these kind of seeds....

Perhaps because certain Christians are violating the CoC. Sometimes repeatedly.

The power of God is so far beyond the capabilities of fallen mortal man to understand using the limits of our limited logic and intelligence. 

Typical cop-out statement. It's like you don't even bother or want to try to understand logic.

That a human would apply our “logic” to a being that always has and always will exist who is all powerful all knowing, everywhere at once is just laughable to us believers.  

Since you affirm god is "all knowing," then you know that god knows every "choice" you will make before you do. And since god knows  your choice, it is therefore impossible to choose any differently than you do when confronted with said "choice." So it's not really a choice at all, as there is zero possibility of you choosing differently than what god already knows what you "choose."

according to Tig, God knew eons ago that I would type that message so therefore according to him I had no free will not to have done it.

No, according to the bible. And now according to you, as you agree god is all knowing (omniscient). See previous statement.

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.85  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.50    2 months ago

I stand by what I said

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.86  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @3.2.84    2 months ago

God is all everything good.  He is all knowing and He made the choice to give His creation free will.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.87  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.85    2 months ago

Making things personal (and presuming the intent of others) as you did @3.2.48 is not the way to go.   If you cannot or will not respond on the actual content (rather than go personal) it is far better to not respond at all.   Consider the ignore function.

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.88  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.82    2 months ago

The Bible says that we are responsible for our own actions.  It doesn’t say anyone is pre ordained for heaven or hell regardless what they do.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.2.89  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.87    2 months ago

You consider it.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.90  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.88    2 months ago

Does the Bible define God as omniscient, omnipotent and perfect?

Does omniscient God know what you will do before you do it?

Don’t blame me for the logical consequences of what the Bible claims as truth.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2.91  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.89    2 months ago

I am not the one complaining about the fact that people dare disagree on content.   If you so dislike rebuttals then consider the ignore function.   That way you will never see the rebuttals.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.2.92  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.2.86    2 months ago
God is all everything good.  

Not if he allowed evil to exist. And especially not according to the bible.

He is all knowing and He made the choice to give His creation free will.  

That's a self contradictory statement.

The Bible says that we are responsible for our own actions.  It doesn’t say anyone is pre ordained for heaven or hell regardless what they do.

If god already knows what we'll do and what the outcome will be before we do it, then clearly god created us to fulfill that "choice" and outcome.

 
 
 
Heartland American
4  seeder  Heartland American    2 months ago

This is how China deals with the virus: ...... Another church in Huaishang district of the city of Bengbu, Anhui province also had its cross removed at the beginning of March, according to   International Christian Concern . Ms. Yao, a local Christian, said the removal was led by the head of the local United Front Department, a Communist Party organ employed to govern religious affairs.

Amid the coronavirus outbreak, which originated in Wuhan, China, most of the churches across the country, both underground or state-approved, are able to meet online as of now.

However, in China’s Shandong province, two state-run Christian organizations, the Three-Self Patriotic Movement and China Christian Council released a statement ordering all online preaching be ceased and churches that gather in secret be rooted out, reports  China Aid .

In addition, it posits officials should “guide” Christians “in other ways, with the caveat of not gathering together!”

For the past 20 years, China has been labeled by the U.S. State Department as a “country of particular concern” for religious freedom violations. 

Under President Xi Jinping, the government has destroyed numerous churches and removed their steeples and crosses, reflecting the Communist Party's concerns about the growing number of Christians in the country.

More than 60 million Christians live in China, at least half of whom worship in unregistered, or “illegal” underground churches. 

China is ranked as one of the worst countries in the world when it comes to persecution of Christians on Open Doors USA’s World Watch List. In addition to Christians, the communist government continues to persecute and monitor members of various religious minorities, including the  detention of over 1 million Uighur and other Muslims  in western China over the last three years. In 2018, the government banned the online sale of Bibles.

Recently, Fu  warned  that over the last two years, Xi’s “war on religion” has reached its “worst” in 40 years. He accused the president of turning faith into a “tool for the indoctrination of Communist ideology.”

For example, all religious leaders must pledge to obey the Communist Party’s ideology in their pulpit before they can be allowed to practice their religion, Fu said. Additionally, millions of Chinese Christian children have been forced to renounce their faith by signing a Communist Party prepared document.

“Clearly the aim is to exterminate any independent faiths,” he said, referencing not only the Christian faith, but the faith of Muslims, Buddhists, and others. 

“This is a very, very serious signal,” he said. 

Fu encouraged the international community to “pay attention to the truth” and “spread true information about faith communities and persecution” on social media.... https://www.christianpost.com/news/china-demolishes-church-removes-crosses-as-christians-worship-at-home.html

 
 
 
Heartland American
4.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Heartland American @4    2 months ago

it’s sick that the Chinese are using the fact that people are confined to their homes due to their own disease to go out and destroy their churches.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
5  seeder  Heartland American    2 months ago

This is how America’s Christians deal with the Wuhan virus:    

138428_w_450_300.jpg Workers set up the Samaritan's Purse emergency field hospital outside the Cremona Hospital in Cremona, Italy in March 2020.  Samaritan's Purse 

The evangelical humanitarian charity run by Franklin Graham, Samaritan’s Purse,  opened  a 68-bed emergency field hospital in northern Italy to help the medical system as it struggles to deal with the coronavirus. 

On Friday, the field hospital opened just outside the city of Milan. According to Samaritan’s Purse, the coronavirus outbreak has  overwhelmed the medical infrastructure  in the area where there are over 40,000 confirmed cases of the virus in the European country. 

“The situation in Italy is desperate,” Samaritan’s Purse CEO Franklin Graham, the son of the late evangelist Billy Graham, said in a statement. 

“The hospitals are overrun and people are dying. We are called to respond in hard places. That’s why our team of disaster response specialists are on the front lines — providing life-saving medical care and sharing God’s love to people who are hurting.”

Over 3,400 people have died in Italy as a result of the coronavirus,  according to  the World Health Organization. 

As families have been left without access to necessary care, Samaritan’s Purse airlifted its  emergency field hospital , medical team and critical aid to northern Italy on Monday by way of the charity’s DC-8 cargo plane. 

In total, 20 tons of medical equipment was shipped along with respiratory therapists, doctors, and nurses. According to Samaritan’s Purse, the hospital began receiving patients as soon as it opened. 

The field hospital features a respiratory care unit and is located adjacent to Cremona Hospital, which suspended all medical care except for maternity and pediatrics because of the influx of people who have coronavirus.

According to Samaritan’s Purse, none of the patients at Cremona Hospital’s intensive care unit have survived the virus. Additionally, the hospital has run out of beds. 

“Every time Samaritan’s Purse responds to a disaster, we respond in Jesus’ name,” Graham, who also heads the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, said. “So we’re going to the people in Italy who are suffering and dying to care for them, to love them and to tell them about God’s Son Jesus Christ.”

Kelly Suter, the medical director for the  Samaritan’s Purse Respiratory Care Unit in Italy, said that medical professionals in the community are “grateful that we’ve been willing to come and fight beside them.”

“Almost every person that I talk to almost breaks into tears,” Suter said. “They’ve felt abandoned. They’ve felt helpless. They’ve been looking for a miracle and they are absolutely grateful that we’re here and ready to fight alongside them.”

Samaritan’s Purse plans to airlift the second round of medical supplies and responders on Saturday. 

The North Carolina-based charity’s disease experts have worked in coordination with the World Health Organization and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to ensure all necessary precautions are being taken. 

Samaritan’s Purse’s field hospital exits to “provide emergency medical relief in disaster-stricken areas where medical infrastructure is damaged, overwhelmed or nonexistent.” The field hospital has been used to treat thousands of patients over the years. 

The hospital was deployed in the Bahamas after Hurricane Dorian in September 2019 and Mozambique after Cyclone Idai in April 2019. It was also deployed in Ecuador in April 2016 after a 7.8 magnitude earthquake and in Iraq in December 2016 during the battle against the Islamic State terrorist group.   https://www.christianpost.com/news/samaritans-purse-opens-field-hospital-in-northern-italy-to-aid-coronavirus-patients.html

 
 
 
Ozzwald
5.1  Ozzwald  replied to  Heartland American @5    2 months ago
This is how America’s Christians deal with the Wuhan virus:  

Shouldn't your God protect all his abject followers from the disease that he, himself, created?

 
 
 
Heartland American
5.1.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1    2 months ago

He didn’t create it

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1    2 months ago
Shouldn't your God protect all his abject followers from the disease that he, himself, created?

That's nice. Prove it!

 
 
 
Split Personality
5.1.3  Split Personality  replied to  Heartland American @5.1.1    2 months ago

The Beginning

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning —the first day.

And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning —the second day.

And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10  God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11  Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds. ” And it was so. 12  The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13  And there was evening, and there was morning —the third day.

14  And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15  and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16  God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17  God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18  to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19  And there was evening, and there was morning —the fourth day.

20  And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21  So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22  God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23  And there was evening, and there was morning —the fifth day.

24  And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25  God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26  Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, [ a ] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27  So God created mankind in his own image,
     in the image of God he created them;
     male and female he created them.

28  God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.

29  Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30  And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food. ” And it was so.

31  God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning —the sixth day.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NIV

 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @5.1.1    2 months ago
He didn’t create it

So you're saying god didn't create everything then? That's odd. I thought god created everything? Or so theists say.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
5.1.5  Ozzwald  replied to  Heartland American @5.1.1    2 months ago
He didn’t create it

Then, in your religion, who did?  And why did you omniscient god allow it to be created?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
5.1.6  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.2    2 months ago

That's nice. Prove it!

Look up the definition of omniscient.

 
 
 
Heartland American
5.1.7  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.2    2 months ago

Still waiting for them to prove that He created it! 

 
 
 
Heartland American
5.1.8  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Split Personality @5.1.3    2 months ago

That was our perfect world before sin was introduced to it.  God did not create sin nor any of its natural consequences 

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1.6    2 months ago

No need.

Some people (like me) already know many words and have no need to run to a dictionary for definitions of common words.

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  Heartland American @5.1.7    2 months ago
Still waiting for them to prove that He created it! 

Is there a more illogical argument than blaming something you don't even believe in for the world's ills?

 
 
 
r.t..b...
5.1.11  r.t..b...  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.10    2 months ago
Is there a more illogical argument than blaming something you don't even believe in for the world's ills?

Think of it as basing an argument on a personal belief, upon which we have every right to do. Thankfully.

This is a discussion that is timeless and will always be a point of contention until both sides simply agree to disagree and live out their lives according to one's own belief system.

Let it go, folks...nothing will be said that hasn't been said before and no minds will be changed.

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.12  Texan1211  replied to  r.t..b... @5.1.11    2 months ago
Let it go, folks...nothing will be said that hasn't been said before and no minds will be changed.

I can agree with that. But every time religion or God is even mentioned on one of these articles, the same suspects show up to crap all over it.

Like I have said many times--the whole damn thing ALWAYS boils down to nothing more than "Prove it" despite protestations to the contrary.

 
 
 
loki12
5.1.13  loki12  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.12    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
r.t..b...
5.1.14  r.t..b...  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.12    2 months ago
But every time religion or God is even mentioned on one of these articles, the same suspects show up to crap all over it.

Then pray for them in having your God open their eyes, soften their spirit, and fill their hearts in understanding.

Engaging them on their terms and on their turf and in their words does nothing but widen the divide in achieving the ultimate goal of saving souls.

In all due respect, please correct me if my understanding of the basic tenets of your theology has been in any way misinterpreted.

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.15  Texan1211  replied to  r.t..b... @5.1.14    2 months ago
Then pray for them in having your God open their spirit and enter their heart in understanding.

That statement makes it seem as though you assume I don't do that already.

Engaging them on their terms and on their turf and in their words does nothing but widen the divide to achieving the ultimate goal of saving souls.

I have no interest in saving their souls. That isn't my job. I am not trying to convert anyone. I am perfectly fine if someone chooses to not believe in God.

But repeatedly asking the same damn questions over and over and over--all while knowing the answer--is ludicrous and a sign of insanity IMO.

I can get along with anyone who doesn't believe in God as long as they don't try to put down people who do.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
5.1.16  r.t..b...  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.15    2 months ago
I can get along with anyone who doesn't believe in God as long as they don't try to put down people who do

Fair enough, Tex...thanks for the honest response.

Peace and good health to you and yours.

 
 
 
loki12
5.1.17  loki12  replied to  r.t..b... @5.1.14    2 months ago
Then pray for them in having your God open their eyes, soften their spirit, and fill their hearts in understanding.

[Deleted]

Engaging them on their terms and on their turf and in their words does nothing but widen the divide in achieving the ultimate goal of saving souls.

[Deleted]

In all due respect, please correct me if my understanding of the basic tenets of your theology has been in any way misinterpreted.

[Deleted]

[Continued meta will result in points toward suspension.]

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.18  Texan1211  replied to  r.t..b... @5.1.16    2 months ago
Peace and good health to you and yours.

Likewise!

 
 
 
Heartland American
5.1.19  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.18    2 months ago

Dittos to you both and everyone else here. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1.20  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @5.1.8    2 months ago
That was our perfect world before sin was introduced to it.  God did not create sin nor any of its natural consequences 

That's nice. Prove it! Even if god didn't create sin, he certainly allowed it and did nothing. So god is at fault.

Still waiting for them to prove that He created it! 

Posts 6.1.7 & 6.1.10

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.21  Texan1211  replied to  Heartland American @5.1.19    2 months ago

Do you ever think that God has inflicted these nonbelievers upon us?

That He made them doubt Him?

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
5.1.22  Larry Hampton  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.21    2 months ago

I wonder what Jesus would say about being "inflicted" with nonbelievers?

Matthew 9:10–13

10  Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners.  11  But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with such scum?

12  When Jesus heard this, he said,  Healthy   people   don’t   need   a   doctor sick   people   do .”   13  Then he added,  Now   go   and   learn   the   meaning   of   this   Scripture : ‘ I   want   you   to   show   mercy not   offer   sacrifices .’ For   I   have   come   to   call   not   those   who   think   they   are   righteous but   those   who   know   they   are   sinners .”

 
 
 
Heartland American
5.1.23  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.21    2 months ago

I don’t believe that God made anyone  doubt Him. They do that of their own free will.   

 
 
 
Ozzwald
5.1.24  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.9    2 months ago

Some people (like me) already know many words and have no need to run to a dictionary for definitions of common words.

Excellent, then you have the evidence that your god created the virus.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
5.1.25  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.21    2 months ago

That He made them doubt Him?

Yet he could eliminate all doubt, just by showing up.  He seemed to enjoy doing that in the Old Testament.

 
 
 
Split Personality
5.1.26  Split Personality  replied to  Heartland American @5.1.8    2 months ago

Of course s/he did and you acknowledge that every time you refer to her/him as the Creator.

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.27  Texan1211  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1.24    2 months ago
Excellent, then you have the evidence that your god created the virus.

That's nice. Prove it.

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.28  Texan1211  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1.25    2 months ago
Yet he could eliminate all doubt, just by showing up.  He seemed to enjoy doing that in the Old Testament.

And the usual yahoos would still doubt.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
5.1.29  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.27    2 months ago

That's nice. Prove it.

Okay, apparently you did NOT look up the definition.

Did your God create everything?  Simple yes, or no question.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
5.1.30  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.28    2 months ago
And the usual yahoos would still doubt.

To quote you, prove it!

 
 
 
Heartland American
5.1.31  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1.29    2 months ago

It’s not that simple.  God created the universe and all within it.  He did not create sin nor did he create any of its natural consequences.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
5.1.32  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.28    2 months ago

That’s for sure.  Look at what His chosen people did right after the Exodus and the escape at the Red Sea.  Just after they saw God shrouded and heard His voice personally at Sinai they worried that Moses had died and built a golden calf to worship.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1.33  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @5.1.31    2 months ago
It’s not that simple.  

Actually, it is.

God created the universe and all within it.  

That's nice. Prove it!

He did not create sin nor did he create any of its natural consequences.  

If god created everything, then that means he created sin or at least the means for sin to exist. And if he's omniscient, then he knew sin would exist when he created everything. Therefore, he does bear responsibility for the existence of sin.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
5.1.34  Ozzwald  replied to  Heartland American @5.1.31    2 months ago
God created the universe and all within it.

Is not the Coronavirus within the universe???

 
 
 
Heartland American
6  seeder  Heartland American    2 months ago

This is an awesome example of Christian spirit and actions. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
6.1  Ozzwald  replied to  Heartland American @6    2 months ago

This is an awesome example of Christian spirit and actions. 

Worship the god that created a disease that is killing thousands, then pray to him to stop killing more people?

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.1  Gordy327  replied to  Ozzwald @6.1    2 months ago

theistic "logic."

 
 
 
Heartland American
6.1.2  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.1    2 months ago

God didn’t create this disease.  It is a natural manifestation of sin and a natural consequence of behaviors. There will be sin here and bad things happening to good people right up until the 2nd coming, then it will all end.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.3  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @6.1.2    2 months ago

Speaking in terms of your understanding of God:

Did God create everything and establish the rules?   (answer = 'yes')

If the coronavirus is a natural manifestation of sin then who determined that rule?   (answer = 'God')

Was it then God's choice that the coronavirus (etc) be a natural manifestation of sin?  (answer = 'yes')


Everything that happens —good or bad— necessarily is a knowing result (even if very indirect) of the decisions and acts of omnipotent, omniscient and perfect God.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @6.1.2    2 months ago

That's nice. Prove it. If God didn't create it, then he certainly allowed it and does nothing about it. That's just as bad. But if you believe God created everything, then God is either directly or indirectly responsible for it. No amount of excuses you make for your God will change that fact or logic.

 
 
 
Heartland American
6.1.5  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.4    2 months ago

Prove via science and logic that God created the covid-19 virus. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
6.1.6  Texan1211  replied to  Heartland American @6.1.5    2 months ago

Want to bet that question will go unanswered--or deflected from?

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.7  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @6.1.5    2 months ago
Prove via science and logic that God created the covid-19 virus. 

He already did.   So did I @6.1.3.

Per your definition of God, God is the perfect, omniscient and omnipotent creator of everything.   Anything and everything that happens is a result (directly or indirectly) of decisions/actions knowingly made by a perfect God.

Logically, the Covid-19 virus is part of God's plan.   To claim it is not is to claim that God is not omniscient, not omnipotent or imperfect.  

By your definition of God, everything good and everything bad is ultimately part of God's plan.

 
 
 
Heartland American
6.1.8  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @6.1.6    2 months ago

The latter as it turned out.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.9  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @6.1.8    2 months ago

Amazing.  I directly addressed the challenge twice and you simply declare it deflection rather than standing up and delivering a rebuttal.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.10  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @6.1.5    2 months ago
Prove via science and logic that God created the covid-19 virus. 

As I & TiG already pointed out, if god created everything, as certain theists actually believe, then logically that means god is either directly or indirectly for the creation of Covid. After all, the buck stops with god. Prove via science and logic that this disease " is a natural manifestation of sin and a natural consequence of behaviors," as you claim!

The latter as it turned out.  

Oh the irony, especially coming from you, who deflects and evades everytime you have been challenged to prove your  claims. Still waiting for you to prove there's a (one true) god, as you have so often claimed. Or are you going to continue to deflect?

 
 
 
Texan1211
6.1.11  Texan1211  replied to  Heartland American @6.1.8    2 months ago

This has devolved into the usual:

"Prove it".

Sigh, another day, another person doing the same things over and over, expecting different results.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.12  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.1.11    2 months ago

Much like some theists claiming god did this or god is that ect ect.. Yep, just another day with the same thing.

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.13  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @6.1.11    2 months ago

Interesting watching folks pretend that the multiple direct responses to the challenge were not provided.   When proven wrong, just ignore the proof?  

If one defines God as omniscient, omnipotent and perfect there simply is no way to logically claim that anything that happens is not at least indirectly a known consequence of God's actions.

If you do not wish for your definition of God to be the root cause of everything good and everything bad, then you should define a weaker God:  maybe take away the omniscience quality.   You are free to do so, people have been defining gods prior to recorded history.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.14  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.13    2 months ago
maybe take away the omniscience quality.  

That would certainly allow free will.

Interesting watching folks pretend that the multiple direct responses to the challenge were not provided.   When proven wrong, just ignore the proof?  

Interesting, but not surprising.

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.15  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.14    2 months ago
That would certainly allow free will.

Yup.   If God were not omniscient then the future would not have to be knowable.   If we had a reality where the future cannot be known then free will is possible.

 
 
 
Gordy327
6.1.16  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.15    2 months ago

Oh TiG, there you go making sense again. jrSmiley_91_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Texan1211
6.1.17  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.13    2 months ago

And perhaps you shouldn't care so much as to HOW I describe God.

I don't tell you how to describe him, do I?

I will define Him as I wish. 

As can you.

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.18  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @6.1.17    2 months ago

Not even close to the point I made.   Strawman.

 
 
 
Texan1211
6.1.19  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.18    2 months ago

My statement stands--regardless of your opinion about it.

 
 
 
Split Personality
6.1.20  Split Personality  replied to  Heartland American @6.1.5    2 months ago

prove that God created you...

 
 
 
The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
7  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"    2 months ago

When I read this title I thought about a few miserably unhappy people who would be injured by it. Oh my, coexist....lol

 
 
 
Heartland American
7.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @7    2 months ago

Lol indeed.  The miso theists are going to make certain those of us who are believers are utterly silenced during this crisis.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
7.1.1  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @7.1    2 months ago

Misotheists are necessarily believers.

 
 
 
Heartland American
7.1.2  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.1    2 months ago

It’s what some who call themselves atheists really are deep down inside

 
 
 
Gordy327
7.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @7.1.2    2 months ago
It’s what some who call themselves atheists really are deep down inside

And you base that claim on what, exactly?

 
 
 
TᵢG
7.1.4  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @7.1.2    2 months ago
It’s what some who call themselves atheists really are deep down inside

Just remember that you are talking about theists who hate/blame God.   A mesotheist who thinks he/she is an atheist is simply a confused theist.  By definition, a mesotheist is a theist and believes in a God.   An atheist does not.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
7.1.5  Ozzwald  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.4    2 months ago
Just remember that you are talking about theists who hate/blame God.

Hey DJTF1, your ignorance is showing....

You cannot hate/blame an imaginary creature.  I don't hate/blame Frodo, Santa Clause, or Rumpelstiltskin either. 

Although........

maxresdefault.jpg

 
 
 
Texan1211
8  Texan1211    2 months ago

Isn't it odd that so much venom can be spewed because some are mortally offended that others have faith?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
8.1  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @8    2 months ago
Isn't it odd that so much venom can be spewed because some are mortally offended that others have faith?

Having BLIND faith is not something to boast about.

 
 
 
Heartland American
8.2  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @8    2 months ago

That is the bottom line here, isn’t it.  Let them vent. It won’t stop believers from expressing ourselves no matter how irrational the secularists become in their intolerant hate of us and what we believe.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
8.2.1  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @8.2    2 months ago

You hold an absurd stereotype that flies in the face of what we write.   It is as if you do not read what we write and instead presume what you imagine we might write. 

We do not hate believers nor do we hate God (since we do not believe any god exists).

In these discussions, the anger (and possibly hatred ... certainly at least venom) and other emotions do not typically come from the secularist side of the argument.   The secularist side typically offers facts, logic and calm challenges based on same.   It is rare to see that in return.

 
 
 
Heartland American
8.2.2  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @8.2.1    2 months ago

Keep the condescension flowing....enjoy whatever satisfaction you seem to get inside by bashing the beliefs of those who have what you may well be missing in life.  We will keep the faith regardless.

 
 
 
Texan1211
8.2.3  Texan1211  replied to  Heartland American @8.2.2    2 months ago
Keep the condescension flowing..

As always.

It seems religion and God makes some people very unhappy.

Pretty weird stuff!

 
 
 
TᵢG
8.2.4  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @8.2.2    2 months ago

You have been informed repeatedly that your absurd stereotype of atheists — especially of those here on NT— is entirely wrong.   An atheist does not believe in a god therefore an atheist does not hate god.   Further, it is incorrect and offensive to proclaim that atheists on NT hate other members.  

When you post unsubstantiated claims  or engage in proselytization you will be challenged.   Some people disagree with what you proclaim as truth.   And that disagreement takes the form of logical, impersonal challenges and debate.   If that is a problem, consider posting to a religious site.

 
 
 
Heartland American
8.2.5  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.3    2 months ago

Indeed it is.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
8.2.6  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @8.2.4    2 months ago

I’m not saying actual atheists hate God.  I’m saying that some of them are intolerant toward and condescending to actual humans who do express in any way their beliefs in general and God in particular. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
8.2.7  Ozzwald  replied to  Heartland American @8.2.6    2 months ago
I’m saying that some of them are intolerant toward and condescending to actual humans who do express in any way their beliefs in general and God in particular.

Do you really believe that atheists show more intolerance to believers, than believers show towards atheists?

 
 
 
TᵢG
8.2.8  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @8.2.6    2 months ago

And I am saying that it is best to spend less time complaining about what you think is in the mind of others and more time responding thoughtfully to content.   Typically the atheists focus on content and offer facts and logic.  Emotion, meta and personal stuff is counterproductive.   Nobody forces anyone to put forth their claims of certainty so complaining of rebuttals is a bit ridiculous.   There are religious sites where people can make claims without fear of rebuttal.   This is not one of those sites.

 
 
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