I've never heard of a libertarian model that would allow for tens of millions of people to receive payment to "tide them over" until the epidemic subsided. Or would "private charity" do that? 

I don't think libertarians, at least right leaning ones, would have shut the whole economy down due to this pandemic, therefore not needing a stimulus or at least such a sizeable one. I think the stay at home orders should really only be instituted in high volume population areas where medical facilities wouldn't be able to keep up. Even the NY governor admitted it wasn't a great idea to just shut everything down out of panic. People are going to get it, why not just get it out of the way quicker?

Because we have a government, the country can actually absorb an expenditure of 6 trillion dollars.  Without government, the care of the jobless would rely on charity. Or do you think people would still go to work in large numbers if people were getting sick all around them? And that of course would happen, you yourself admitted "everyone" is going to get it.    But actually that is not necessarily true, there will be a vaccine next year and there will be many many people who will not have had it by then because of the precautions. 

Could a libertarian society suggest that everyone wear a mask when they go out?  If the "leaders" of that society did so, they would be going against libertarian principles, wouldnt they?   

Libertarianism, other than in a small population like a desert island society, is not practical. It is a utopia. 

Yes many people will get it and survive it no problem. I really feel the only people who should be staying home are the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions. They should be quarantined but the rest of us should just get it, get over it, and continue to be productive.

The government is not going to "absorb" this! How absurd! Cost of living is going to go up. Inflation. Taxes. This is not going to be some painless gesture of niceness. This is going to cost people and everyone is going to pay in one way or the other.

BTW socialism is a utopia. Especially in a global society. There are not enough rich people in the whole world to fund the population of this earth. People need to be self sustaining.

There are people getting this thing that are otherwise healthy and still dying.

I really don't want to get this virus because I don't know how I will react to it.

Many elderly do not work and many with serious pre-existing medical conditions do not work, so everyone you would have working would get it, some of them without symptoms. Human nature would not allow people to keep going to work everyday when a lot of the people in the office were very sick, and some of them dying. That is not how human nature works. 

The other moral problem with your solution is that you would be cutting the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions off from any human contact. Ok, the "well" and the young go to work and the old and medically compromised stay home. What happens when the workers leave work and go home to their wife or husband who had to stay home because they have diabetes?  Or the young workers go to visit their grandparents, or even their parents? 

Libertarianism has no answers for a country of tens of millions or hundreds of millions of people. 

As long as the poor people have bread lines, the socialists are happy.

As long as the 1% get to remain the 1%, conservatives are happy.....

There are people getting this thing that are otherwise healthy and still dying.

At what rate? This isn't like the bubonic plague here. Symptoms for those who are not already at risk are not much worse than the regular flu.

If you are worried then your employer should allow you to stay at home. Maybe give you a voluntary lay off so you can collect unemployment. Or there could be a state or federal mandate that allows people who are more concerned about their health than there finances can stay at home and still receive some sort of pay until this is "over".

Amazing that the country survived until 1935 without welfare

For much of that time (1776-1935) the vast part of the country was rural, and incredibly poor people could grow their own food. Even if they were dirt poor they could survive. After mass industrialization we had slums. A lot of slums. You also had generations of families living in the same house or apartment or tenement to conserve funds. You had exploitation of labor. Why would anyone want to go back to that? 

Go talk that hyperbolic crap to the tens of millions of Americans who are being laid off and thus losing their family's employer provided health insurance right in the middle of a goddamn global pandemic and see if they give one rat's ass about your scary bugaboo labels. 

Things like guaranteed incomes and universal health insurance are not socialism. 

Socialism is an economic system where workers own the means of production. 

Why were people from otherwise successful countries flocking here despite all of that? Because people come to America to make their own way off their own labor and success, not the hand outs that await them. This is where the democrat party has lost the original intent of this country. Freedom of religion and prosperity. Not a nanny state. That's as unAmerican a concept as it gets. Go live in Europe if that's what you prefer.

Things like guaranteed incomes and universal health insurance are not socialism

They are social (welfare) programs. You can call it whatever you want. It's fleecing people who work for people who don't

Capitalism creates poor people. Under capitalism there will always be a race to the bottom for wages. That is what capitalism means. You pay people as little as possible to maximize profit. 

I accept that as our economic system, and obviously it has created mass material advancement and a lot of wonderful products and inventions.  The price that NEEDS to be paid, that should be paid, that has to be paid is "welfare" for those who dont "make it". Capitalism requires people that dont make it (because they lost the race to the bottom of wages). Capitalism requires a certain level of unemployment.  I dont know why people who do well under the system complain about remitting part of their money to take care of those who dont make it.   The system creates poverty, individual people dont. 

Nonsense. 

I really feel the only people who should be staying home are the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions. They should be quarantined but the rest of us should just get it, get over it, and continue to be productive.

That's actually the only way to protect the Elderly and Infirm. If they were quarantined then everyone else could catch it and recover and the hospitals could handle the tiny percentage of normally heathy people who developed complications. Then when the vast majority of the population had gone through it they would be immune and no longer a threat to the Elderly and Infirm. It would have been wiser to focus our resources into helping and providing for the safety of the Elderly and Infirm instead of spreading our resources to thin by shutting down and quarantining everyone.

I don't know what the rate is but there are stories of people 30 and under who have died.

Since I'm not a slacker and considered "essential" I will get my fat ass out of bed every morning and go to work. I don't need a government handout and I resent you even suggesting it.

John is completely right Loki.... Capitalism need less than full employment to drive costs down by competition.  If there isn't someone capable of doing it for less you can't squeeze cost out.  If you have full employment, you have wage cost inflation pressure.

Think of it from a supply-demand-cost aspect.  This comes out clearly in any economics 101 book you pick up.

An essential part of capitalism is maximization of profit.  This creates a race to the bottom for wages that will ALWAYS exist in capitalism.  So, there will always be poor. Always.  If everyone in America had a college degree, you would have a lot of poor people with college degrees. 

Just pay your taxes and be happy you are one of the winners. 

I don't think you are thinking this through..... View it from what causes wage inflation push.  See if that helps.

As you get closer to zero unemployment, the need for labor, independent of skill level becomes more critical to a company, so they have to pay more to lure workers from other companies.  This is not theoretical.  We were seeing it prior to the virus hitting our shores.

I don't need a government handout and I resent you even suggesting it.

Oh please. I resent that you resent something I didn't say. YOU said you wouldn't respond well to the virus, so I suggested there should be ways you can avoid it without going broke while those who are not concerned can continue working.

I understand manufactured costs well.  I make products where 90% of the costs are from purchased raw materials.

I also understand robotics and automation...... They have been primarily installed to reduce labor costs, and to improve quality.  When you eliminate workers from good paying jobs to lower paying service jobs, how does that give them more purchasing power? 

The system creates poverty, individual people dont. 

Horseshit!    

Individuals can create their own poverty via laziness and chronic underachievement among others things.

That said, Capitalism can produce individual success through hard work and innovation.    Something usually not possible in a socialist system.

Big difference.

Capitalism is the greatest weapon against poverty and illness mankind has ever come up with.  

Yep but you missed one that the socialists and commies really hate.

Liberty.    Freedom to pursue ones own happiness in the manner one prefers.

Yeah, they REALLY, REALLY hate that one ......

The jobs simply change. Those robots have to be serviced and maintained. Which means more skilled training for the average American and fewer liberal arts courses.

Those robots have to be serviced and maintained.

At a ratio of 4/30  I can run 10 robots 24/7 eliminating at a minimum 30 people, while only having to employ 4 persons with higher training.  Where do the other 26 people get their wages?  

Truck drivers and taxi cab drivers.  What are those 1.3 million workers going to do when automated systems replace them? 

I just know at my facility and in my area where there is a lot of automation happening, weld techs and controls engineers are in short supply and highly paid. More automated infrastructure also requires more IT personal, more maintenance personal. There are a lot of supporting jobs that go along with automation, they just aren't all cushy desk jobs that soft millennials and gen z'ers think they deserve. They will require a mix of skill and labor.

What is capitalism all about..... Making money.  How do you do that... by cutting costs and selling at a higher price.

If there is full employment as you suggest is good, then how do companies drop their manufactured costs while paying higher wages?  Your argument is mutually exclusive with respect to higher wages, lower manufactured costs, and employment levels, and not anywhere consistent with normal business operations.

Your statement end to end is very true, but my experience across multiple plants with many sorts of automated systems yields a need for 1 highly skilled person to maintain it for every 7.5 persons eliminated.

Missing or rude - either work.

Thanks, MUVA. My thoughts are with your family. I hope they stay well

Libertarians have always been a 'got mine, so fuck you' kind of people.  No thanks!

Libertarians have always been a 'got mine, so fuck you' kind of people.  No thanks!

But don't you want "YOURS" too ?

So I understand you are going to give your stimulus money to someone more "needy", or is that just talking out the ass?

     “Capitalism creates poor people.“

Really?  Where did you learn that?  So in all of human history, prior to Capitalism there were no poor people?  No poor in areas of the world even today where Capitalism takes a backseat to centrally planned economies, communism and dictatorships that claim to be “socialist”.  Name a single economic system in human history that has lifted more people out of poverty than Capitalism, even with its flaws.

      “Under capitalism there will always be a race to the bottom for wages. That is what capitalism means. You pay people as little as possible to maximize profit.” 

Aside from the fact that this is not what capitalism means, companies pay for labor what the market demands or supports and based on proficiency or skill level of the employee. The most successful companies pay employees so as to retain the most talented workforce for the job, particularly in highly competitive industries.  Sure, there have been, and still are, industries where labor is treated as a resource that is sometimes offset to maximize profit, depending on market conditions and required skills.  But for the most part, Capitalism provides a market for individuals to sell their labor/skills so that employers and employees can enjoy a win-win.  And ALL participants can be capitalists themselves given the degree of effort they wish to apply as it pertains to their own skills and labor.   Without Capitalism there is no potential for the ”American Dream“.  Ask any immigrant who came from a place without it.

Do you ever wonder why communist (or self-proclaimed ”socialist”) countries after decades of poverty and suffering finally come around to employing private industry and competitive market Capitalist solutions to stimulate economic growth and prosperity?  Because it works.

What are companies going to do; make product and sell it for less than their manufactured costs?  Commodity products like 20 gallon totes, and plastic hangars have a margin of about 3.5%.  Walmart drove the costs down to where the best manufacturer of totes (Rubbermaid) got out of the business.  What we are left with are products that are inferior in quality, or brought in from overseas.

How does America win under those circumstances?

Retrain for what manufacturing jobs Dennis?

I already pointed out that only one is seven are needed to keep automated lines running.

I believe in competition as much as the next person, but what are the other six going to do?  Even service jobs are being automated to where humans need not apply.

.....Ah... Dennis.....  Are the crickets going to settle the matter?

I'd be investing in the company that fabricated body bags as it would be everybody for themselves.....  

It is terrifying that the social order is dissolving.

There can be no trials and jails are petri dishes.

I'd be investing in the company that fabricated body bags as it would be everybody for themselves.....

Ya wouldn't make much of anything on this "Issue".

"Past" investment woulda made you money. BIG MONEY !

Or would "private charity" do that?

In times gone by they did. Of course back then people had more time to devote to charities. Nowadays, with the need for two incomes to make ends meet, it makes it harder to not only get volunteers, but also to donate to charities. Combine that with the high taxes we pay to make sure we can fund the Kennedy Center, build bridges to Nowhere, and buy the love of the Middle and Far East, people tend to feel that with what we already give the Government, then they SHOULD step up during tough times.

Private charity would pay for tens of millions of people to shelter in place?  Dream on. 

Private charity would pay for tens of millions of people to shelter in place?

When was the first shelter-in-place stimulus package handed out? Who paid for previous shelter-in-place orders for the various reasons given for them before then?  I don't see any mention of government paying bills before this, do you???

Private charity is a great thing and America and the American people are much better off because it exists.  Faith based charity freely given to is much more efficient than government programs transfer wealth from some and hand it out to others.  I’m not saying that there aren’t those in need or sick or down through no fault of their own where government can’t help.  I’m simply saying that private charity does a better job with the money they’ve been given than government does.

Private charity like this?  Really? 

usatoday

A New York judge’s ruling that President Donald Trump must pay $2 million to charity appears to be the final chapter in the saga of Trump’s troubled charitable foundation.

State Supreme Court Justice Saliann Scarpulla of Manhattan ruled on Thursday that Trump pay $2 million in damages to various nonprofit groups to settle allegations that he and his family used the Trump Foundation to further his political and business interests.

Though Trump admitted the misconduct in court documents, he issued a defiant statement in which he accused New York’s attorney general of mischaracterizing the settlement process for political purposes. Trump claimed he had been attacked by “political hacks in New York State.”

forbes

The real star of the day is Eric Trump, the president's second son and now the co-head of the Trump Organization, who has hosted this event for ten years on behalf of the St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis. He's done a ton of good: To date, he's directed more than $11 million there, the vast majority of it via this annual golf event. He has also helped raise another $5 million through events with other organizations.

The best part about all this, according to Eric Trump, is the charity's efficiency: Because he can get his family's golf course for free and have most of the other costs donated, virtually all the money contributed will go toward helping kids with cancer. "We get to use our assets 100% free of charge," Trump tells Forbes.

That's not the case. In reviewing filings from the Eric Trump Foundation and other charities, it's clear that the course wasn't free—that the Trump Organization received payments for its use, part of more than $1.2 million that has no documented recipients past the Trump Organization. Golf charity experts say the listed expenses defy any reasonable cost justification for a one-day golf tournament.

Additionally, the Donald J. Trump Foundation, which has come under previous scrutiny for self-dealing and advancing the interests of its namesake rather than those of charity, apparently used the Eric Trump Foundation to funnel $100,000 in donations into revenue for the Trump Organization.

And while donors to the Eric Trump Foundation were told their money was going to help sick kids, more than $500,000 was re-donated to other charities, many of which were connected to Trump family members or interests, including at least four groups that subsequently paid to hold golf tournaments at Trump courses.

All of this seems to defy federal tax rules and state laws that ban self-dealing and misleading donors. It also raises larger questions about the Trump family dynamics and whether Eric and his brother, Don Jr., can be truly independent of their father.

Especially since the person who specifically commanded that the for-profit Trump Organization start billing hundreds of thousands of dollars to the nonprofit Eric Trump Foundation, according to two people directly involved, was none other than the current president of the United States, Donald Trump.

Whew! For a second there I thought you might bring up the Clinton Foundation and Haiti...

Is it even possible for some liberals to get through a single post without bashing their President?

I am fairly certain that the poster didn't mean EVERY single charity ever.

Damn, that is fucking ridiculous, but hey, you got to bash your President, so it's all good, right?

Yet NONE of you can refute my post.  And if you have anything about Clinton Foundation (Kane), please post your proof.  Which you can't.  Since I was responding to a post about how much better private charities are over gov't, why aren't you responding to that?  Any of you?  Why is giving our money to a private charity better when there are so many who are corrupt?  With no oversight for so long?  

Somebody tell me the story about how TDS isn't real....I love that one!

It will have to come from someone else.

I can't just lie like that, especially with so many glaring examples seen here daily.

Yet NONE of you can refute my post.

You listed ….. "ONE" !

"ONE"....is not "The Many", even though "Snowflakes" always seem to "NEED IT TO BE" !

Lol, and you listed........"NONE".  Not even a nice try.  Can't refute, so throw out 'snowflake'. 

Can't refute

What am I supposed to refute ?

I already noted that you had found "ONE".

You should be happy now.

Now....out of ALL the "Private Charities" in this entire country, can you found another, that doesn't have "Trump" in it ?  

But, but the Clintons.

YAWN

The foundation that has an A+ rating?  

The foundation that has an A+ rating? 

Yep, the same one Ortel labeled a fraud...

And if you have anything about Clinton Foundation (Kane), please post your proof.

It's right there next to your Russian collusion proof against Trump. You know, right there on the top of the stack of missing emails...

How "moderate" of you ! lol. 

Now tell me how shocked you are!

LOL!

Our taxes are due but tens of millions are laid off, we are under attack by a deadly microscopic virus, people are dying untested thus undiagnosed and uncounted, markets continue to nosedive and half the country is losing their health insurance.

Good Times? This is bullshit! Trumpism is bullshit!

What we need is leadership but all we are getting is more lousy lies, lameass excuses and another round of Trump's misplaced blame games. You want to see dysfunctional governance? Look outside your front doors at the reality of a rudderless ship of state. America is adrift. Is this what you really wanted? 

Good Times? This is bullshit! Trumpism is bullshit!

lol .... yeah, the corona virus pandemic situation is Trumps fault.

A new low achieved in unhinged TDSism.

"I take no responsibility for anything" - D Trump 

Trumpism is bullshit!

Trumpism would be bullshit even if the coronavirus didnt exist. 

TDS wouldn’t be a real thing had Trump not won.    But alas for the TDS ridden, he did win  and it is real.    Very, very real.

Interestingly obtuse observation considering what is going on right now.

Some in the lamestream media, the progressive left political class, and others hate Trump so much that they would prefer to accept Chinese propaganda talking points to the leadership of our own President during this Chinese caused crisis.  

And some of the Trump cult members have their head so far up Trump's ass that they prefer to accept Putin's propaganda (he is always ready to help Trump with his newest talking points pushed by the trolls and bots) points to the actual FACTS that Trump is incapable of repeating, instead preferring to make up his own alternate reality.  AKA he lies about everything so we can trust nothing he says.

There’s a Trump cult?     Nah, that’s just a creation of TDS ridden.

Yep, Sparty, there is TDS, and symptoms include believing everything out of his lying mouth and defending his every word and action.  Trumpsplaining constantly how you know what he really meant when he says something totally different.  Taking every propaganda talking point (always with help from Putin) and pushing it with the same veracity of those bots and trolls.  Trying to change Trump's history by denying what is not only on video, but we saw it happen in real time.  Called gaslighting. 

There’s a Trump cult?  

Utter nonsense, right?

Nah, that’s just a creation of TDS ridden.

They seem incapable of helping themselves.

And some of the Trump cult members have their head so far up Trump's ass that they prefer to accept Putin's propaganda

The Communists are here, the Communists are here !

McCarthy would be PROUD.

Lol .... having a difference of opinion is not gaslighting.    Once again, a misuse of a term in an attempt to push a specific narrative and a shameful practice indeed.

Gaslighting use is on par with one of the other "faves"--STRAWMAN!

I love it when they accuse former Cold War warriors of being Russian stooges.     It’s beyond ridiculous really for those of us that come from the better dead than red era.

Just more proof how rampant TDS is for some.

having a difference of opinion is not gaslighting.  

Sparty, pay attention, I never said gaslighting was a difference of opinion.  Its LYING about facts to make the other person think they are going crazy because what they see and hear with their own eyes and ears didn't happen.  As in LYING about what Trump did from the beginning of this virus. Which he does and you do every time you repeat his lies about what already happened or didn't happen.

Its LYING about facts to make the other person think they are going crazy because what they see and hear with their own eyes and ears didn't happen.

Shoulda put Joe Biden on this. After 44 years or so in Congress/VP.....We know he coulda fixed it....toot sweet !

Don't give the job to Cuomo though. His "Solving of the problem", just keeps exasperating HIS problem.

Lib50, irrational interpretations of what Trump has or hasn’t said are clearly the problem here so pay attention.  One can not be irrational and biased and expect the non affected to take them seriously.   Again, no gaslighting there ....

Pay attention now ya hear!

What is irrational is that Trump and his sycophants expect the masses to believe a liar.  Want to see an example of trying to change the past in real time?  Today the gov't (HHS) actually changed their website to fit Jared's definition of the Strategic Nat'l Stockpile. 

politico

According to a brief online summary on the Department of Health and Human Services website, the stockpile's role "is to supplement state and local supplies during public health emergencies. Many states have products stockpiled, as well."

But hours earlier, the text characterized the stockpile as the "nation's largest supply of life-saving pharmaceuticals and medical supplies for use in a public health emergency severe enough to cause local supplies to run out."

The revision comes after Kushner argued at the White House coronavrus task force press briefing Thursday that the stockpile's reserves are exclusively the property of the federal government.

A “rational” interpretation of the link you provided.    

The Fed is responsible for ALL states and territories and expects them all to expend their own strategic stockpiles prior to expecting relief from the Fed.    Therefore providing relief to the most needy states first.   States that aren’t trying to hoard their own strategic supplies and requesting Fed relief before they do, have no problem.

Once again, what your comment seems to allude is an irrational response to what the intent really is.    A TDS driven irrational response

So true. The real tds is the people that cannot see past donald's nutsack.

So true. The real tds is the people that cannot see past donald's nutsack.

Hell, can't see past the liberals he's been teabagging for the last 3+ years!

Nope he has been doing that to his followers. They are just either blind enough or stupid enough to keep asking for more, all the while trying to tell others how good it is.

Some have opened eyes and can see what he actually is.

I am saddened that rampant TDS also produces "visions" so unrelated to reality for the people it has infected.

So true. Just look at all the people that blindly defend him.

Laughable nonsense.

Once again, what your comment seems to allude is an irrational response to what the intent really is.    A TDS driven irrational response

Once again, you put out a bunch of babble about nothing and expect it somehow changes what I posted.  Trump had them change it to save Jared and himself.  It only highlights his failures for the whole country to see.   And its still a form of gaslighting.

Once again you woefully wrong on all counts.

Sad

Really Sparty?  If you think its wrong please provide your links that none of those things happened.  Because what is more sad is when people lie about what we saw happen in real time - and being denied by the person who said and did them and the cult who keeps posting his lies and denials. 

Yes really and it’s still really sad.

No links needed as I’ve already directly refuted your “interpretation” of what was said and you have yet to provide any reasonable proof that it’s not correct.

Sure, plenty of off base TDS driven hatred is offered but that’s of no use to anyone but the severely demented

SOSDD .....

people are dying untested thus undiagnosed and uncounted

People are also catching it and getting over it and not being counted as well. Right now the numbers look awful because only those that ARE diagnosed with it and die or recover are counted. Until we know how many have already contracted it and recovered without a trip to the hospital or doctor, we won't have a good indicator of exactly how dangerous this pandemic really is.

Trump's misplaced blame games

And yet here you are blaming this whole thing on Trump. The CDC and WHO have been saying for decades something like this would happen. Where are your statements ripping into them?  Oh that's right.  They aren't Trump.  Trump is the problem.

Look outside your front doors at the reality of a rudderless ship of state. 

A rudderless ship that enabled us to have the lowest unemployment rate in a VERY long time.  A booming economy.  Talks with N. Korea.  Better trade deals with China, Canada and Mexico.  But never-mind all that.  The left and liberals don;t see that.  All they see is their rage because they lost an election 4 years ago.

FFS even the Democrats are calling for an investigation into the most recent stimulus package THEY VOTED FOR AND APPROVED.  These are the idiots you are supporting.

A rudderless ship that enabled us to have the lowest unemployment rate in a VERY long time.  A booming economy. 

May want to rethink that one and check the new unemployment rates and not so booming economy.  March statements are going to be worse than February.  We aren't getting back up before we ditch the asshole.  No matter how hard he tries to dodge responsibility,  everyone except a few addled worshippers know he is the face of the response to a national problem of this scale.  And man is it ugly.

May want to rethink that one and check the new unemployment rates and not so booming economy.  March statements are going to be worse than February

And liberals are celebrating this. They have been waiting on this opportunity for 4 years.

Sure, bugs, we are celebrating the loss of jobs for everybody we know and the tanking of our investments in our retirement. 

No, bugs, that is you projecting what you would do if things were reversed and you could blame a dem.  Nobody is celebrating the biggest fuckup in our lifetime by the most ignorant incompetent asshole who only cares about himself.  Because we are going to be losing people we love.  That's a fact/truth, not a fucking wish.

you could blame a dem.

Blah, blah,blah..

If it were Obama, you would be blaming Bush.....7 and a half years into Obama's term.

The truth is, Liberals have been wishing for an economy tank for a long time now. There is video of libs saying a economy tank would be a good thing because it would hurt Trump.

Trump did the right thing right away by putting a travel ban on China, while democrats and liberals were calling him a racist for it and telling other liberals to go out....enjoy the Chinese New Year, enjoy NYC.

Oh, yea....and democrats were more worried about impeaching Trump than giving a shit about some little flu virus coming out of China.

Trump failed from the very beginning when he didn't listen to the intel reports on this very subject (again, last year).  And he ignored it, doing his rallies, minimizing the problem, calling it a dem hoax that they were making into a big deal.  Doing NO planning for the upcoming disaster whatsoever. Golfing.  Rallies.Closed off China, sort of, after things were already here. Rallies. Golfing.  Is STILL failing with testing.  Has no coherent plan on a national level. He doesn't even have a plan to guide the UNITED states.   Jared in in charge, that says it all.  Fires the competent professionals and hires a toady.  Lies about the virus. Lies about the tests.  Lies about the supplies.  Lies about the federal gov't role in national disasters.  Lies about what he said in the past.  He talks about his facebook ratings. He is a poor example to follow if one wants to stop this virus as soon as possible. Even those daily rallies have too many people too close together touching the same things at the podium.  Red states are the only ones left not taking this seriously, following Trump's example.  Words are cheap. Actions speak louder than words.  Months were wasted getting on top of this.  Even the businesses he keeps yapping about don't know what the hell they are supposed to do because he just throws out words, no plan.

Since this liberal has a direct concern in how the economy, you are insane to think anybody wants to fuck up their financial security and lose friends and loved ones.  It must be you looking in the mirror. Otherwise stop saying stupid shit.

I would vote this up 1000x if I could.  

You nailed it, it's really sad that some are still blind to the facts.

Since this liberal has a direct concern in how the economy, you are insane to think anybody wants to fuck up their financial security and lose friends and loved ones.  It must be you looking in the mirror. Otherwise stop saying stupid shit.

The first part of the tirade was nothing but that...a tirade, but 1 thing that stood out was the over and over proven lie that Trump called the virus a hoax. It is unbelievable that sheep still believe that...but....bleet bleet.

Show me where I said liberals hope people die. You won't be able to because I didn't, but they have, over and over, said they hope there is a downturn because it would hurt Trump. I understand it is a liberal tactic to claim someone said something they did not, then try and argue that point against them. You do that well.

Well, mutherfuckers, they got their wish...Unfortunately that wish came because of the the fucked up democratic governors, congresspeople and mayors telling their people ONLY DAYS BEFORE TRUMP DECLARED A NATIONAL EMERGENCY to go out and enjoy the Chinese New Year, central park, NYC, etc. Did the virus first show up in late February? No. These dumb fucks telling their people to go out and enjoy knew of the possible dangers well before......but Trump

You want to blame somebody? Blame those fucks. They did what they did because it was their intention to go againt EVERTHING Trump says...EVERYTHING.

Did Trump do everything right? No he didn't, but this is a novel situation no one alive today has ever seen, well, except for Obama only little over a decade ago, but we all know how THAT was fucked up. However, he has done a kick ass job, along with his team, of keeping the American people informed of what is going on and how they are doing everything possible to stop this virus.

I'm proud to call him my President.

it's really sad that some are still blind to the facts.

Well, at least you are humble enough to recognize your flaws.

Don't worry about replying. We already know what it will say.

Here...Let me do it for you..

Blah blah blah...crooked Donnie...blah blah.,..corrupt..blah blah...worst president...blah blah...

There..I saved you some keystrokes.

You're welcome...

[bugsy, lib50, and lady in black - please maintain a civil tone.  Further personal comments from anyone will be deleted.]

Show me where I said liberals hope people die. You won't be able to because I didn't, but they have, over and over, said they hope there is a downturn because it would hurt Trump. I understand it is a liberal tactic to claim someone said something they did not, then try and argue that point against them. You do that well.

I said this:  'Since this liberal has a direct concern in how the economy, you are insane to think anybody wants to fuck up their financial security and lose friends and loved ones.  It must be you looking in the mirror. Otherwise stop saying stupid shit.'    IN RESPONSE TO YOUR COMMENT HERE: ' Liberals have been wishing for an economy tank for a long time now. '  You are accusing others here.  I don't know anybody that has ever said or thought that.  Who, 'some people'?  Stop throwing out shit you don't want lobbed back.  Because when you accuse liberals of being happy the economy tanking the loss of life goes with it, genius. 

Did Trump do everything right? No he didn't, but this is a novel situation no one alive today has ever seen,

This particular virus might be novel, but the idea nobody ever imagined a pandemic is just not true.  They have plans in place for these things.  Of course they have to be adapted to the specific threat, but the overall preparation for supplies and all that goes with it are planned.  Trump threw it ALL OUT. This isn't normal scrambling to get in front of a virus. This is total denial and lying about it from the beginning.  If you are proud of how Trump is handling this there is not even a debate to be had.  You will see how big of a disaster over the next month. 

Otherwise you just can't defend Trumps stupidity point by point so you just pretend its my tirade.  Think we didn't notice?  He's still not leading and you are right there blaming the states trying to save their people with no federal leadership.  No responsibility.  What the fuck kind of leader is that?

lose friends and loved ones.

THAT is what I'm talking about. I never said that. You just threw that bs in, then tried to argue it against me.

I don't know anybody that has ever said or thought that.  Who, 'some people'?  Stop throwing out shit you don't want lobbed back.  Because when you accuse liberals of being happy the economy tanking the loss of life goes with it, genius.

I suggest you change your channel off CNN and MSDNC. They do not want you to know the truth..

Bill Maher: I Hope There's Another Recession So We Can Get Rid Of Trump

townhall

I can pretty much guarantee many, many liberals felt the same way. When Maher said what he did, I can just see the liberal bobbleheads nodding in unison.

He's still not leading and you are right there blaming the states trying to save their people with no federal leadership.

The federal government is not the save all for states. I can assure you that if the feds tried to step into state coronavirus business early on, liberals would be screeching they are stomping on state sovereignty. I don't see any red state governors complaining about the need for equipment, it is only the dark blue states. If you say the federal government should have been ready for a pandemic, you are right....but the states should have been prepared, too. NY leadership failed, now they are going on national tv begging for help every day hoping to garner sympathy from the rest of the country. I truly feel sorry for the residents of NY because of the failed leadership they voted in.

This president is in a lose/lose with the left. They hate him for one reason and one reason. His name is not Hillary.

How about this....we change his name to President Hillary. Would that make it better?Would you suddenly start throwing accolades to him. Probably.

May want to rethink that one and check the new unemployment rates and not so booming economy. 

May want to pull your head from your 4th POC.  Neither of those are because of the current POTUS.  The same thing is happening GLOBALLY.  But I guess in your narrow point of view, it's his fault.

In a Libertarian Society, we would be practicing Herd Immunity like you suggest. The healthy would go to work. The sick would go home. The ones with medical complications would likely die. This is what happens when Darwinism comes into play. The weak are weeded out by Nature. It's cruel, but it is natural in the evolutionary climb towards a more perfect organism.

Are we better off that we fight diseases with medicine? It depends on how you look at evolution. If you consider evolution to be a good thing and necessary for the survival of the human race, then interfering with it through medicine is not a good thing; it is actually slowing down the evolutionary climb. On the other hand, if all we are focused on is the here and now, then of course medicine is the answer to our woes.

Me personally, I am a combination of the two. If it isn't bleeding profusely, broken, or running a fever over 104 degrees, I tend to nurse it at home using nothing more than OTC drugs and first aid supplies, or homeopathic treatments. If more people would familiarize themselves with symptoms of serious illnesses, there would be a lot less demand for emergency rooms and doctor visits. Don't get me wrong, I believe that each person should decide for themselves when they should go to the doctor. By no means am I saying that I would think more or less of them for following my practices. This is just what works best for me. Granted, if we had universal care, I would be more inclined to seek professional advice. Alas, putting food on the table, gas in the car, and a roof over the families'  head takes precedence over shortening the length of time I feel ill...

Excellent post.

Progressives make no sense. They want to reduce carbon emissions, while keeping all 8 billion people on this planet alive and well. Obviously I am all for intervening with nature to improve life where it is fiscally responsible, but keeping everyone alive no matter what it costs or the effects on the planet, just doesn't really make sense to me. Of course some people view human life very differently. They think there are 8 billion "special people" on this planet when in reality, they are all just humans. Here for their period of time and gone just like many other organisms throughout time.That's why one picture of a Middle Eastern kid washed ashore in Europe, due to their own decision to get on a boat that is not sea worthy, can make the entire continent of die hard liberals completely destroy their economy and culture to make sure it never happens again. Like it was their fault!

No one is going to live forever. We don't all get to live to 100. People need to just start coming to grips with facts like these and maybe you won't have so much panic during hard times.

The first sentence in the body of your post is the bottom line here.  Progressives make no sense.  Exactly!

In a Libertarian Society, we would be practicing Herd Immunity like you suggest. The healthy would go to work. The sick would go home. The ones with medical complications would likely die. This is what happens when Darwinism comes into play. The weak are weeded out by Nature. It's cruel, but it is natural in the evolutionary climb towards a more perfect organism.

In this cruelty, other things would be "ok". Murder, rape, robbery, thievery, etc, for what you describe is a dog eat dog environment. You would have NO right to complain if someone hit you over the head and took your stuff, or came and forced you out of your house and claimed it as their own. After all, in that case you would be the weaker one, right? 

After all, in that case you would be the weaker one, right?

Maybe. Or maybe they would find me holding their head in my hands over their lifeless body. I just can't understand how there are ANY people on this Earth considering what you describe as what Society would be like without any laws. Good thing we had Laws before Man came along, or we would never have made it this far, huh???

/S

You want to apply what happens in nature (the weaker hyena gets caught by the lion) to human social interactions. 

But we are more than animals, as we all know. Ultimately libertarianism means dog eat dog.  Therefore, you would have no right to complain if people abuse you because you are weaker, or they kick you out of your house. 

We need government to protect rights. Without some entity to protect universal rights within a society all you have left is talk. 

I have seen news stories lately where they say polling is showing a large majority of Americans agree with the "stay at home" policies. I think the figure is something like 80% approval. 

We need government to protect rights.

No, we need Courts for that, not Government. Courts can be as simple as a group of peers hearing both sides and coming to a consensus on what is fair by community standards. It can be as simple as 3 people coming to an agreement after a dispute. We don't need government; government needs us--the taxpayers!

polling is showing a large majority of Americans agree with the "stay at home" policies. I think the figure is something like 80% approval

Take away those stimulus checks and the extra $600 a week they will be getting from unemployment and watch how fast that approval sinks...

That and people believe most things the media pounds in their heads

No, we need Courts for that, not Government. Courts can be as simple as a group of peers hearing both sides and coming to a consensus on what is fair by community standards. It can be as simple as 3 people coming to an agreement after a dispute. We don't need government; government needs us--the taxpayers!

What authority creates the court?  What authority enforces the courts decisions?  Where do you get the proof that that house belongs to you?

You will be creating a "government" , or a shell that gives you what you want and eliminates what you dont want (taxes).  That is as arbitrary as what we have now. 

There is a reason there are no large libertarian societies.  Libertarianism is a fantasy. 

What authority creates the court?

Local communities. You know, where the whole idea originated from to begin with.

What authority enforces the courts decisions?

See previous answer.

Where do you get the proof that that house belongs to you?

Yep, go back to the original answer.

You will be creating a "government" , or a shell that gives you what you want and eliminates what you dont want (taxes).

True, but it will be localized. And there would still be taxes, although fewer and far less as the needs of the Community are much less than the Nation we have now.

There is a reason there are no large libertarian societies.

And that reason would be Colonialism. Before that, the entire world was Libertarian. You are promoting domination by force; something you were just arguing against.  Make up your mind.

And you have the delusion that these "localities" would not resort to "force"?  Fraid not. 

And you have the delusion that these "localities" would not resort to "force"?

Where have I said that?  Oh that's right; I didn't. Matter of fact, force is used all the time to enforce the will of others over another individual. Now quit putting words in my mouth John.

Oh yes. Let us revert back to witch trials and mob mentality...

“I have seen news stories lately where they say polling is showing a large majority of Americans agree with the "stay at home" policies. I think the figure is something like 80% approval. ”

Excellent!  Then the same 80% would individually agree freely to do so in a Libertarian society.  You see, such cooperation and pulling together to serve societal needs can happen just as easily with or without the force or edict of a State.

Dog eat dog happens even in nature when scarcity beyond the control of the individual animal comes into play.  Otherwise free roaming individual animals will hunt and live in cooperative packs and peacefully coexist.  In human societies it has historically been over-bearing states that create the very sort of scarcity that leads to the dog eat dog mentality among individuals.  Don’t believe me, then crack a history book.  What you describe has more to do with a statist mindset than it does Libertarianism. 

What we have seen during the outbreak of this virus is a huge overreaction to how it spreads. Instead of everyone stay at home, common sense social distancing and the wearing of face masks should prevail. Many workers have no option other than to go to their jobs. That includes all the medical and first responders and people who work at the grocery stores and pharmacies, and many other types of jobs. I agree that the elderly and sick should stay home, while the otherwise healthy should be going to work. Employers need to be trusted to establish guidelines of the working conditions of their employees and the steps taken to keep them, and their customers, free from exposure to infection. The damage these forced shutdowns is doing to the economy and people's livelihoods cannot persist for much longer.

You want to see what happens when a group of people think they are special?  They don't need to take the precautions everybody else is complying with?  We can't even keep our medical personnel who are on the front lines equipped and safe, how the hell does Joe Blow keep safe out there?  Not enough tests to know who is even spreading it!  And trusting employers to keep their workers and customers safe?  The same ones who usually worship the dollar over safety?  Here is an example of staying normal and ignoring safety measures.  And lets not forget, our country is getting mixed messages from Trump and experts.  Downplaying the risks have not been good for any country so far, and most have implemented some kind of stay at home orders (ones at forefront of virus).  Florida is allowing religious gatherings to be exempted from lockdowns.  This is what will happen.   Entire country should be following the same stay at home orders so we can lift them all sooner.  No economy will work until the virus is under control, no matter how much money you throw at businesses.  This is a health problem first and has to be solved before everything gets fixed.

huffpost

BNEI BRAK, Israel (AP) — Early this week, the streets of the central Israeli city of Bnei Brak were bustling with shoppers as ultra-Orthodox residents, obeying their religious leaders, ignored pleas to stay home in the face of the coronavirus threat.

By Friday, Bnei Brak had become the country’s worst hot spot and now resembles a ghost town. One expert estimated that nearly 40% of the city’s population might already have been infected.

The city has become a lightning rod for anger and frustration by some secular Israelis who allege insular Haredi communities — with disproportionately high numbers of confirmed cases — are undermining national efforts to contain the virus.

The pandemic also has threatened to upend deep-seated customs in the religious world, including blind obedience to religious leaders and the belief that religious studies and traditions take precedence over the rules of a modern state.

And lets not forget, our country is getting mixed messages from Trump and experts.

Maybe YOU have mixed the messages up, but the Majority know EXACTLY the difference between what is good for you, and what is BAD for you right now, as to what is being said by "Government" !

If NOT....you were one mixed up Human in the first place !

Ain't Freedom Great though ?

You can "Choose" to stay safe....or NOT !

It's ALL up to you !

Keep listening to Trump.

Keep listening to Trump.

Okay !

Gee, Wally, I'm so sorry I missed that insult before it got deleted. I could have used the chuckle.

Wow. Really sad.

We actually have people being so blase about this and saying people should just go on with their lives and if they die, so be it. It is just thinning the heard.

I never thought I would see some sink so low.

Sounds like you need to hang around a better crowd.

Typical. Can't refute what was said so resort to schoolyard tactics.

Why would I even try to refute what you claim you heard?

I just know the people I choose to associate with don't think like that.

Uh, the people you associate with on this forum are doing it right here on this seed....

More bs?

Ha. Sad that one would deny what is right there for all to see.

But not surprising.  Cause they've got nothing else. 

Ha. Sad that one would deny what is right there for all to see.

I have seen less than a handful of posts anywhere CLOSE to what you suggested they say. I also don't hang around with anyone on this site, so my statement stands, whether you personally like it or not.