Can herd immunity help stop the coronavirus? Experts warn it's not that easy.

  
Via:  perrie-halpern  •  2 weeks ago  •  120 comments

By:   Denise Chow (NBC News)

Can herd immunity help stop the coronavirus? Experts warn it's not that easy.
Herd immunity remains out of reach, even in the places hardest hit by the coronavirus pandemic, experts say.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Dr. Mike Ryan, the World Health Organization's emergencies director, offered some stern words Wednesday about hopes that herd immunity could stymie the coronavirus.

"Humans are not herds," he said.

Herd immunity has emerged in recent weeks as a popular talking point among people who argue that coronavirus lockdowns have been too stringent.

Herd immunity is a concept in epidemiology that describes how people can collectively stave off infections if some percentage of the population has immunity to a disease.

But herd immunity in relation to the coronavirus is far from a reality, particularly without a vaccine. Ryan said the term "herd immunity" emerged from veterinary epidemiology, typically involving business decisions of whether to let animals die for the overall health of a herd.

"An individual animal in that sense doesn't matter, from the perspective of the brutal economics of that decision-making," Ryan said.

"So I think we need to be really careful when we use terms in this way around natural infection in humans, because it can lead to a very brutal arithmetic which does not put people and life and suffering at the center of that equation," he said.

Health professionals and officials continue to warn that there is no easy way out of the coronavirus pandemic, particularly with parts of the U.S. beginning to ease lockdowns. Herd immunity remains out of reach, even in the places hardest hit by the pandemic.

There are two main ways to achieve high levels of immunity in a population: Either enough people have already been infected and their immune systems have developed antibodies to protect against future infections — at least for the short term — or there is a vaccine. Without herd immunity or effective treatments — and in the absence of social distancing measures — it's expected that countries will need to prepare for periodic and unpredictable spikes of new infections until a vaccine is widely available.

nn_kpa_new_antigen_test_antiviral_drugs_

For COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus, it's estimated that 50 percent to 70 percent of the population will need to be immune to achieve herd immunity.

Despite more than 4.3 million confirmed coronavirus cases worldwide, no country is even approaching the levels of immunity needed to collectively slow transmissions.

In Wuhan, China, thousands of people returning to work in April were tested for antibodies, and preliminary results found that only 2 percent to 3 percent had developed them. Early results from a nationwide study in Spain found that about 5 percent of the roughly 90,000 people tested were positive for antibodies. And even in hard-hit regions, such as New York City, preliminary testing of 1,300 people found that 21.2 percent were positive for antibodies.

"That means 80 percent of the population would appear to still be susceptible," said Dr. Robert Atmar, an infectious disease specialist at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. "So even in an area that has been highly affected, we're not seeing the levels that you would expect for herd immunity."

Herd immunity, which varies depending on the pathogen, is calculated based on the transmissibility of a disease — the number of people one infected person will then go on to infect. In general, a disease that is more transmissible needs a higher proportion of the population to be immune for herd immunity to be effective.

"For a disease like measles, it's necessary for more than 95 percent of the population to be immune, but for other pathogens, the number of people required to be immune can be lower," Atmar said.

That raises concerns for any country trying to lift lockdown restrictions, said Dr. David Dowdy, an associate professor of infectious disease epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

Epidemiologists and public health officials generally agree that allowing herd immunity for the coronavirus to build through natural infections would be disastrous.

"Right now, unless you're New York City, chances are that 5 percent or less of the population is immune, so to get to herd immunity, you'd have to take the number of cases and deaths we've already experienced and multiply that by about 15," Dowdy said. "If we were to let that happen over a short period of time, it would obviously be catastrophic for the health system."

But that raises a public health quandary. With no vaccine and even the rosiest projections estimating that an effective candidate is at least nine months away, can social distancing be eased without inviting new waves of infections?

In the U.S., where unemployment is soaring and anti-lockdown protests are brewing, some demonstrators and lawmakers have been pointing to Sweden as a model for how to operate without strict social distancing measures — and as a possible way to build herd immunity.

Sweden notably didn't enact official lockdowns and kept schools open for students under 16 even as other countries in Europe took unprecedented steps to curb the spread of the virus. In a meeting Tuesday of the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., who is also a medical doctor, suggested that the U.S. should follow Sweden's lead.

But while the "Swedish model" has been hailed as a success story, details are emerging that show that the country has had its own struggles. Sweden has reported more than 28,000 confirmed cases and more than 3,500 deaths from the coronavirus. And although those figures pale in comparison to the 1.4 million cases and more than 85,000 deaths in the U.S., the coronavirus death rate in Sweden is higher than it is in the U.S.

And there's little evidence that Sweden is close to herd immunity. The country's Public Health Agency said in late April that about one-third of Stockholm's 1 million residents may have been exposed to the virus by early May, marking some progress toward herd immunity but far from the 70 percent estimated as necessary.

And Sweden's response has come with a heavy human toll.

"Sweden has, if not the highest per capita mortality rate in Europe, then just about the highest, so they have paid a price for their approach," Dowdy said.

A further wrinkle is that scientists are still unsure whether coronavirus antibodies translate into immunity.

"It's likely, but we don't know for sure," Atmar said. "I think it's reasonable to expect that there will be some level of immunity and protection from reinfection, but we just don't have that information yet."

Even if antibodies can protect someone from being reinfected, it's not known how long the immunity could last.

"If natural immunity to this virus is going to be gone within three to six months, then we don't even need to be talking about herd immunity," Dowdy said.

Still, Atmar said, there are ways the virus' spread could be contained even as some social distancing restrictions are gradually lifted.

"Wearing masks in public, modifying how we use public transportation and increasing testing and contact tracing are ways that we can mitigate some of the risks of transmission," he said. "If we can identify people early who are potentially infected and quarantine them, we can still decrease transmission."

190618-denise_chow-byline1796_3be2b09d6c Denise Chow

Denise Chow is a reporter for NBC News Science focused on the environment and space.


Tags

jrDiscussion - desc
smarty_function_ntUser_is_admin: user_id parameter required
[]
 
Kavika
1  Kavika     2 weeks ago

A very good explanation of what ''herd immunity'' really is.

 
 
 
Veronica
1.1  Veronica  replied to  Kavika @1    2 weeks ago

I agree.  

 
 
 
Kavika
2.1  Kavika   replied to  Greg Jones @2    2 weeks ago

The three largest counties with the most cases and deaths are Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade. 

Palm Beach just went to phase 1 this past Monday, 5/11. Both Broward and Miami-Dade are still on lockdown.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
2.1.1  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Kavika @2.1    2 weeks ago

Lets see what happens in Wisconsin in two to three weeks in the way of hospitalizations.  

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
2.1.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @2.1.1    2 weeks ago

We actually have data from Georgia that opened on April 24th.  New cases and hospitalizations are down.  Notice how the media  stopped talking about Georgia?  

the country can’t stay locked down until a vaccination  may, or may not be, discovered. The deprivations from a depression, including access to healthcare (medical supply chain will be ravaged) is going to be much, much worse than a prolonged lockdown,

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
2.1.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  Kavika @2.1    2 weeks ago

Yes, those three counties that are either locked down or just started easing restrictions accounted for over half the new cases yesterday. Many of the counties that have been open had zero new cases. Only Hamilton county, with a prison outbreak, seems to have an issue.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
2.1.4  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sean Treacy @2.1.3    2 weeks ago

Sean,

What do you think caused the outbreaks in those countries? There is a reason. 

 
 
 
Kavika
2.1.5  Kavika   replied to  Sean Treacy @2.1.3    2 weeks ago

My point is that those three counties account for 29% of the population of FL. I'm well aware of the trends in FL by county. For a better picture of how the virus is gaining/losing/staying static in Florida is when all the counties are under the same restrictions. 

The county that I live is only had 5 new cases yesterday, but only1.5 % of the citizens have been tested. We are in north-central FL which to date is doing well and we are in phase 1 and most people are practicing social distancing and using face masks. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
2.1.6  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.4    2 weeks ago

Luck, population density,  demographics and household size  all matter.  

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
2.1.7  Sean Treacy  replied to  Kavika @2.1.5    2 weeks ago

And my point is that 71% of the people of Florida have been able to loosen restrictions without a spike in new infections.   Opening those three counties will tell us what happens in those three counties.  If there is a spike in those three counties when they open up, then they should lock down when there is a danger of the system being overwhelmed. 

The idea that simply loosening restrictions will automatically cause infections to spike has no basis in the data. 

 
 
 
Kavika
2.1.8  Kavika   replied to  Sean Treacy @2.1.7    2 weeks ago
The idea that simply loosening restrictions will automatically cause infections to spike has no basis in the data. 

Nor did I state that it did.

 
 
 
Dulay
2.2  Dulay  replied to  Greg Jones @2    2 weeks ago
Contact tracing is impractical and raises privacy issues.

Thanks for you utterly unfounded and uninformed opinion. 

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
3  FLYNAVY1    2 weeks ago

My wife and I had this discussion two weeks ago, and saw no way out of this situation until there is a viable immunization available.  

If you think the politicians are going to be honest with you on this topic, you're lost.  Be skeptical of everything you hear, but lean towards trusting in what the scientists are telling you, and applying what you should have learned in your high school biology to give you direction.  

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
3.1  Dean Moriarty  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @3    2 weeks ago

Yes the only thing I want from politicians is to get out the way and quit preventing people from earning a living and providing for their families. It’s not fair that only those of us that are classified as essential can weather this storm without the politicians standing in our way. 

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
3.1.1  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Dean Moriarty @3.1    2 weeks ago

You going to lend a hand with the inevitable additional body bags in your quest for the almighty dollar?  You aren't going to get one without the other.....  Lets just be honest here.  As I see it, we aren't going to avoid it.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
3.1.2  Dean Moriarty  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @3.1.1    2 weeks ago

We’ve been open the whole time have had employees test positive and no body bags yet. We are choosing to fight this standing tall and are not going to let a virus destroy our livelihood. 

I see you made the same choice as you said you were working just a week or two ago. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
3.1.3  Greg Jones  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @3.1.1    2 weeks ago

So you couldn't care less about the ~36 Million people who have lost their jobs? That number includes people of all political stripes, and is particularly affecting minorities and the already poor

Are they going after the almighty dollar, or simply trying to survive?

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
3.1.4  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Dean Moriarty @3.1.2    2 weeks ago

We're doing it as smart as we can.  If you don't have to be in the plant, don't be. 

We've had two confirmed cases in the US plant while running on a skeleton crew.  The best we can do is take temperatures as they come in the plant, you maintain a mask at all times.  We have crews that do nothing but sterilize common areas constantly.

We're fortunate that the people on the floor run lines where they are well separated from each other.  We've even given them the option to eat at sanitized tables by their machines rather than go to the common lunchroom.  Everyone chose the former

Me, I head back solid from mid June till the equipment is through commissioning which I figure is mid August.  I don't like it, but the job has to get done.

 

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
3.1.5  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Greg Jones @3.1.3    2 weeks ago

Wish your patron saint in the WH would have shown half as much concern about Americans in January as you are now.  Logic says we wouldn't be facing that problem if he had.

Because of the "no response" by this administration to the virus, we're going to get to live through both higher than needed unemployment AND a higher body count.   Stop being a political lapdog Greg, and start using a more science-statistical based approach to what we are facing.  

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.6  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Dean Moriarty @3.1.2    2 weeks ago

Dean,

Again, what do you think caused so much death in other places? One place does not make a statistic. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.7  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Greg Jones @3.1.3    2 weeks ago

Gregg,

Of course this is a serious situation with unemployment, but the dead don't work either.

 
 
 
squiggy
3.1.8  squiggy  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @3.1.5    2 weeks ago

How is what Trump is doing affecting manufacturing in Germany?

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
3.1.9  Colour Me Free  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @3.1.5    2 weeks ago
Wish your patron saint in the WH would have shown half as much concern about Americans in January as you are now.  Logic says we wouldn't be facing that problem if he had.

January?  In late February Dr. Anthony Fauci did not seem to think COVID 19 was a serous threat to Americans .. no need to wear masks either.  Is he, or is he not the infectious disease expert?

During a Feb. 29, 2020, interview, Dr. Fauci said that at that time and under the circumstances pertaining to that date, Americans didn't need to change their behavior patterns.

www.snopes.com/fact-check/fauci-nothing-to-worry-about/

I can find you an article if so desired .. 

So what again was the president failing to do in January?  when the president banned travel to and from China in January it caused quite the uproar....  I do not support nor defend the president … but I think individuals need to focus on all the details and make a timeline of events .. the only place that got things right was San Francisco ………….. everyone thought 'house arrest' was insane!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
3.1.10  Trout Giggles  replied to  Colour Me Free @3.1.9    2 weeks ago
In late February Dr. Anthony Fauci did not seem to think COVID 19 was a serous threat to Americans .. no need to wear masks either.  Is he, or is he not the infectious disease expert?

Yes, he is. But what I've come to know is that knowledge is fluid and dynamic. It changes from day to day even hour to hour. IMO, Dr Fauci was working with what he was given. We all know that China was sitting on valuable information. If they had informed the world what was going on, we here in the States and maybe other countries could have gotten ahead of it.

I did agree with the travel ban but I thought it should have come sooner. trmp was given information, Dr Fauci was advising, but trmp wasn't listening.

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.11  Tacos!  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
your quest for the almighty dollar

That's a pretty heartless judgment. We're not talking about Jeff Bezos trying to score an extra billion dollars. We're talking about millions of ordinary people who can't afford to buy groceries because government has made going to work a crime.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
3.1.12  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.11    2 weeks ago
We're talking about millions of ordinary people who can't afford to buy groceries because government has made going to work a crime.

That's a bit hyperbolic don't you think? The government didn't stop all people working. I'm working, my husband is working, every body I know is still working. The grocery stores are open, so those people are working, the liquor stores and tobacco stores are open.

Are you saying that millions of us are criminals?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.13  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.11    2 weeks ago

Tacos,

The dead can't work nor can they be brought back. What if who dies is in your family? Why do you think the Swedes changed course? 

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.14  Tacos!  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.12    2 weeks ago
every body I know is still working

So because everybody you know is still working, everyone else must be too? The current unemployment rate in this country is nearly 15%. Literally millions of people are out of work. How poor should we let them get? How many bank accounts should be emptied? How many people should go into debt? What will that do to their health?

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.15  Tacos!  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.13    2 weeks ago
The dead can't work nor can they be brought back.

Yeah, so? That's a fact, but what is the point?

What would you like to do about it?

How many people do you want to put into poverty? How many should starve? How many should forego preventative medical care that could also save their lives? You want to shut down all of the economy until you can guarantee that no one will die of covid? What about all the other diseases and medical conditions that kill people? What about the screenings for cancer that aren't happening? You can't just say everybody stays at home indefinitely. That is a cure worse than the virus.

 
 
 
squiggy
3.1.16  squiggy  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.12    2 weeks ago
That's a bit hyperbolic don't you think?
Are you saying that millions of us are criminals?

 
 
 
Gazoo
3.1.17  Gazoo  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.10    2 weeks ago

“Dr Fauci was working with what he was given. We all know that China was sitting on valuable information.”

i agree with that.

“trmp was given information, Dr Fauci was advising, but trmp wasn't listening.”

this is where you lost me. You said that Fauci was working with what he was given when he said on Feb. 29 that Americans should not change their habits. You admit Fauci was advising Trump when Fauci was saying it isn’t a serious threat to America or that Americans shouldn’t change their habits. Then you say Trump wasn’t listening. What was Trump supposed to do given the advice Fauci was giving him?
Your post makes absolutely no sense.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
3.1.18  Colour Me Free  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.10    2 weeks ago
Yes, he is. But what I've come to know is that knowledge is fluid and dynamic. It changes from day to day even hour to hour. IMO, Dr Fauci was working with what he was given.

Hello Mrs Giiggles

Oooo most definitely - I did not intend to sound flippant about Dr Fauci - he is basically the only person I want to hear from regarding COVID .. I was just trying to point out how things were unfolding prior to March and the shuttering of the nation...

China lied/covered up and the world is paying for it .. it did not help that Trump was convinced that the US could not be effected/affected by the virus .. the spread is unprecedented!

I do not think we should  be doing business with China at all .. I was/am all for the ban - once they get their human rights violation atrocities cleaned up  .. then talk with them again ……………….. but NO, we are in bed and dependent China.  I am hoping that COVID is the eye opener for the nation .. 'we' have to be self-sufficient .. America has to put our nation first … and I do not mean that in any other way than bring back that which 'we' have sacrificed (the middle class) for cheap products!  The US has become a disposable nation ..  'its cheap don't fix it, throw it away and buy a new one - people making 10 cents a day will gladly make a new one ...

Soap Box is back in her stall!

'Stay healthy

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
3.1.19  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.14    2 weeks ago

That's not what I said. However, I don't know anybody that's been laid off.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
3.1.20  Trout Giggles  replied to  Colour Me Free @3.1.18    2 weeks ago

Hiya, Miss Colour!

I agree with everything you posted. I want to get out of bed with China, too, and get back to making our own commodoties and other stuffs.

I once said eff globalization...I still mean it.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.21  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Colour Me Free @3.1.18    2 weeks ago

Hi Colour! 

Gotta agree with you on all points. 

 
 
 
Ender
3.1.22  Ender  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.21    2 weeks ago

Gotta disagree with all of you. Are we to think that if the virus started here in the US that our government would not lie about it? Do we not think if the origins were in the EU they would not lie about it? Same with Russia and the Middle East.

Everyone would try to contain it themselves before informing the rest of the world. And then still try to not take complete blame for a pandemic.

I am not saying to give China a free pass, I am saying there is no need to push xenophobia. We have enough of that as it is. Look at the way Buzz gets attacked now.

There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. Getting the populace riled up and acting like the country is nothing more than an enemy only causes animosity and needless hate that lead to attacks and hate crimes.

China is the new boogie man. Notice we never hear about Iran or NK anymore.

As far as bringing back factories, I could write paragraph after paragraph about that as well.

We are never going to go back to assembly line worker days.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
3.1.23  XDm9mm  replied to  Ender @3.1.22    2 weeks ago
Look at the way Buzz gets attacked now.

NO ONE is attacking Buzz.  He is taking criticism of the Communist Chinese government personal and then trying to defend the indefensible.  Then he goes one step further and claims any criticism of China is xenophobic, much like you yourself claim in a veiled manner. (I am saying there is no need to push xenophobia.)

China is the new boogie man. Notice we never hear about Iran or NK anymore.

Actually, we do, but the majority attention is rightly on China.  Also, both countries are having their own issues with Covid19 and are less able to stir the pot so to speak.

As far as bringing back factories, I could write paragraph after paragraph about that as well.

Well, contrary to what some believe, the Trump administration had had some success in doing just that.   I guess, Trump found that magic wand Obama couldn't.

We are never going to go back to assembly line worker days.

No one ever said that.  But there is more to manufacturing than assembly lines.   And we should repatriate as much as possible here to avoid being held hostage by ANY country for anything again.

 
 
 
Ender
3.1.24  Ender  replied to  XDm9mm @3.1.23    2 weeks ago

Buzz has a unique perspective that none of the rest of us do. And yes, there is a lot of animosity. There was even an increase with attacks on Asian people here in the US.

Contrary to what people spew, before the virus, China was open to where even I could go there and visit. See the sights and not have to worry about safety anymore than a lot of other countries.

Acting like they are the only country to have any sort of atrocities committed against their people is ignoring or not even looking at our own past.

If you look at data, manufacturing had been in a decline for decades, culminating to where we were at the peak of the recession. If you look at the numbers, during 2009/10 the numbers started to rise.

Odd that some cannot give Obama any credit where donald gets praise.

Despite some disliking it, we are global. The repatriation and nationalism some decry is starting to sound like what we are supposedly against in other countries. We criticize them for doing it yet now want to do the same.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
3.1.25  XDm9mm  replied to  Ender @3.1.24    2 weeks ago
Buzz has a unique perspective that none of the rest of us do.

Shaded by the less than forthcoming media in China.   Hell, per his own admission, HE didn't see anything locally, but then he's 500+ miles away from Wuhan.  If he saw that far, I'd be asking him if he can fly or catch a bullet in the palm of his hand.

And yes, there is a lot of animosity.

NOT directed at Buzz.   At China.  NOT at Buzz.  Hell, the majority here, like myself also indicated he had to be careful what he said as it could be very detrimental to his health and the health of his immediate and extended family.

There was even an increase with attacks on Asian people here in the US.

There are some shitheads in ALL societies.   I'll posit that there are very likely as many in China disparaging Buzz and his wife as there are here disparaging Chinese.

Contrary to what people spew, before the virus, China was open to where even I could go there and visit. See the sights and not have to worry about safety anymore than a lot of other countries.

Yes, you could go there and visit.  Of course, you, along with all other foreigners, WOULD be under the watchful eye of uniformed or plain clothed members of the PLA and informed in no uncertain terms to stop what you were doing if they did not approve.  Oh, and don't forget, you need to ask permission to go someplace.  You can't just up and head out on your own.

Acting like they are the only country to have any sort of atrocities committed against their people is ignoring or not even looking at our own past.

The past is the past and we have our warts.  The re-education camps and people disappearing in China are CURRENT.  If you don't believe that, ask what's happening to the Uighurs in China as we speak.   Millions are imprisoned in 're-education' camps for nothing more than being Muslim.

If you look at data, manufacturing had been in a decline for decades, culminating to where we were at the peak of the recession. If you look at the numbers, during 2009/10 the numbers started to rise.

Of course it had been in decline.  While you're looking at that data, look at the rising industrial base and financial resources available to ...  CHINA.   Now, don't get me wrong.  That's not all on China.  The corporate heads deserve to be lashed for that too.   I'm just glad that I've always tried to buy American made products from American owned companies for decades.

Odd that some cannot give Obama any credit where donald gets praise.

Give Obama credit for what?   The economy had no where to go but up when he took office.   We were at the bottom and it was the trillions in stimulus funds that brought it back.  And don't forget the FED pumping 85 billions into the market monthly while keeping interest rates at near zero percent.   When the fed stopped pumping that money into the market around October 2014, the economy essentially flat lined with little if any movement up or down.  It was stagnant. Or as the "experts" noted, the WEAKEST recovery in American history.   Of course the Obama rules and regulations also took their toll on american business.  But we won't go there. 

The market that had flat lined in October 2014, started a climb in, can you guess November 2016, on the election of Trump?  He hadn't even taken office yet, and the markets reacted to the promise of American business being unshackled from the Obama era regulations.  It would still be climbing if not for the incompetence of some China lab techs.

Despite some disliking it, we are global. The repatriation and nationalism some decry is starting to sound like what we are supposedly against in other countries. We criticize them for doing it yet now want to do the same.

Yes we're global to a degree.   But when a country, ANY country relies for so much of their consumer, military and pharmaceutical requirements on another country, that country is no longer in a position to be self reliant.  When essentially ALL countries find themselves dependent on ONE country for those materials, there is a major problem that needs to be immediately addressed.

What country other than China wants total global domination?   America has no problem with trade as long as it's fair trade.   Hell, there ARE things that we don't have in abundance and other countries do that are willing to trade for what they don't have.  But it has to be a two way street.   With China, it's all one way in their favor and what they can't get fairly, they'll steal.  And then they threaten to keep what you need if you complain.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
3.1.26  Colour Me Free  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.20    2 weeks ago
I once said eff globalization...I still mean it.

When I hear things like Global economy / one world economy due to 'globalization' it makes me nutz… if that is the way things have to be, then lets start playing for keeps .. no more outsourcing .. I do not believe 'we' can continue down this path of the US become a consumer nation!

Soap Box once again is back in her stall

Peace!  Stay healthy

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
3.1.27  Colour Me Free  replied to  Ender @3.1.22    2 weeks ago
There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. Getting the populace riled up and acting like the country is nothing more than an enemy only causes animosity and needless hate that lead to attacks and hate crimes.

Hi Ender … 

If Russia is an enemy .. then why is China not an enemy?  Serious question .. I would like an answer... ( if there is a legit answer to be had )

China is a thief ..  has stolen intellectual property for YEARS!  'We' once were a leading producer of wind mills .. but China stole the blueprints / software etc on how to repair 'our' wind mills they bought from 'us' …... now 'we' buy wind mills from China... 

Xí Jìnpíng is so much more powerful than Putin ever dreamt of being - he is the 'supreme' ruler, now a dynasty so to speak .. Erdogan is another example of a power grab  .. hell Turkey is still a member of NATO ... but Russia / Putin enemy #1 ... Ooo and Syria .. Assad (must go) became enemy #2 ... all of these rulers are dicks .. Of course they would lie .. but that is not the point .. 

 I know what Putin has done … not a nice guy at all .. but neither is Xí Jìnpíng just ask Hong Kong or the Uyghurs within his grasp ...

China is the new boogie man. Notice we never hear about Iran or NK anymore.

 Last I heard (on May 13) lil Kim had still not been seen .. Iran?   is struggling to stay afloat .. sanctions .. COVID... etc

China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia (some might even say Israel) are all civil rights violating nations .. yet the US is in bed with them.  I find it frustrating..

We are never going to go back to assembly line worker days.

There are quite a few assembly line workers workers. .. cheap crap is what replace the Made in the United States product, I think it is time to bring the label home

Ugghhh .. I hope I do not come across as angry .. I will not be out committing hate crimes - but I do watch foreign affair very closely .. and cringe at what 'our' so called allies / business partners get away with

Take care Ender .. stay healthy

.. 

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
3.1.28  Colour Me Free  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.21    2 weeks ago

Hi Perrie .. I hope you are doing well ..

Sorry for my delay .. I have been knee deep in top soil and planting my garden..

I do not understand how 'we' can ignore what is happening .. 'we' cannot even arm our military grade weapons without China - I believe there is only one place mining rare earth mineral / elements in the United States (may have gone out of business by now) the US buys from China...

Peace my friend .. take care of you!

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.29  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.11    2 weeks ago
We're talking about millions of ordinary people who can't afford to buy groceries because government has made going to work a crime.

Because the choice at that point was making sure we had people alive and not falling ill. It wasn't to be mean. Sometimes medicine is a bitter pill. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.30  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.15    2 weeks ago
How many people do you want to put into poverty?

None. How many people are acceptable to die?

How many should starve?

None should. We are not a poor country. We are stressed, granted, but between our government and those of us working, no one should be starving (more than normal, which often goes ignored)

How many should forego preventative medical care that could also save their lives?

That happened even before we got this terrible virus. You have to know that. In fact, if you got sick from this virus, you were guarantee medical care, which is NOT the norm.

You want to shut down all of the economy until you can guarantee that no one will die of covid?

Why do you keep saying that? I don't want to close down all the economy. I don't even think it's necessary. I want to be smart about how we do it. 

What about all the other diseases and medical conditions that kill people?

What about other diseases? From March 1 to June 1 which is not peak season for the disease we will lose 100,000 easily. Today we are on the brink of 90,000 dead, in 3 months. Name me another single disease that does that. Here let me give you a hint. Each YEAR 58,860 will die from all cancers COMBINED.  That is far less than what Covid did in 3 months.

What about the screenings for cancer that aren't happening? You can't just say everybody stays at home indefinitely. That is a cure worse than the virus.

There have been minor delays in screenings. What is worse, is they can't get any treatment other than surgery, since both chemo and radiation lowers the immune system and doctors are walking a tight rope on treatment.

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.31  Tacos!  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.30    2 weeks ago
What about other diseases? From March 1 to June 1 which is not peak season for the disease we will lose 100,000 easily. Today we are on the brink of 90,000 dead, in 3 months. Name me another single disease that does that.

Tuberculosis kills over a million people a year. Diseases that cause diarrhea kill over a million people a year. Heart disease kills 8 million a year. Stroke, 6 million. Respiratory diseases not named Covid-19 (including the aforementioned TB) kill over 3 million. COPD by itself kills 3 million. Diabetes kills about a million and a half. So does Alzheimer’s. 

Oh yeah, and cancer. Didn’t even get to cancer.

Many of these deaths can be delayed or averted entirely via early medical screening - something a lot of people aren’t doing now either because they are afraid to go to a doctor’s office or hospital and get infected, or because those facilities aren’t seeing people or doing those procedures due to the lockdowns.

The point being that there is so much panic behind many of these decisions that the cure, as they say, maybe worse than the disease. 

None of these deaths are desirable, but there so many other deaths that we accept every day.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.32  Dulay  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.31    2 weeks ago
Tuberculosis kills over a million people a year. Diseases that cause diarrhea kill over a million people a year. Heart disease kills 8 million a year. Stroke, 6 million. Respiratory diseases not named Covid-19 (including the aforementioned TB) kill over 3 million. COPD by itself kills 3 million. Diabetes kills about a million and a half. So does Alzheimer’s. 

Perrie's comment was based on US data. 

Your numbers add up to more than 25 MILLION deaths per year. Add in Cancer and you're talking about the US loosing almost 10% of our population every year.

Ridiculous. 

Got a link for any of it? 

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.33  Tacos!  replied to  Dulay @3.1.32    2 weeks ago
Perrie's comment was based on US data.

My numbers are global.

Got a link for any of it? 

Google is your friend. I don't see you demanding links from Perrie, so I no reason to engage with such unfairness.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.34  Dulay  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.33    one week ago
My numbers are global.

That begs the question: WHY? 

Again, Perrie's data is obviously limited to the US. I have to presume that you chose not to limit your data to the US because they wouldn't bolster your 'argument'. Using 'global' data just made your 'argument' irrelevant. 

Google is your friend.

You made the assertion, YOU have the burden of proof. 

Of course you've already admitted that your data is irrelevant so it's moot. 

I don't see you demanding links from Perrie, 

I RECOGNIZE Perrie's data from my daily check in at JHU Dashboard and local news coverage. I presume that you didn't question her data for much the same reason. 

so I no reason to engage with such unfairness.

Tissue? 

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.35  Tacos!  replied to  Dulay @3.1.34    one week ago
That begs the question: WHY?

Why not?

I have to presume that you chose not to limit your data to the US because they wouldn't bolster your 'argument'.

I'm not surprised you chose to assume the worst in someone else. It's pretty typical and why you don't get along with so many people here. You're wrong, as usual.

Using 'global' data just made your 'argument' irrelevant. 

I see no reason to think that. And I just chose the first web page I came across that listed a bunch of things people die of. All this nefarious cloak and dagger shit that you like to accuse people of comes from your own imagination.

YOU have the burden of proof

No, I have no burden because I couldn't give two shits if you believe me or not. If you want to learn something, all you have to do is Google my claims. It's not obscure, arcane knowledge that will be difficult to find. You're just being either lazy or argumentative because that's what gives you thrills.

you've already admitted that your data is irrelevant

I see you have no qualms lying about me. Quote me saying my data is irrelevant or admit your lie.

Tissue?

Golly what a smart thing to say. You impress . . . well, no one, really. Thanks for dropping by to attack people, though. It makes it so fun around here. Not.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.36  Dulay  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.35    one week ago
Why not?

I've already told you why not. 

I'm not surprised you chose to assume the worst in someone else.

That is nowhere near the worst I've seen from you Tacos!

It's pretty typical and why you don't get along with so many people here.

Since I'm not running for 'Most popular on NT' I could NOT care less. 

You're wrong, as usual.

What exactly are you claiming that I am wrong about? 

I see no reason to think that.

Your inability to see that your deflection renders you comment irrelevant is on you. 

And I just chose the first web page I came across that listed a bunch of things people die of. All this nefarious cloak and dagger shit that you like to accuse people of comes from your own imagination.

Again, WHY? Why bother posting a bunch of irrelevant data that is non-responsive to Perrie's question? That's some weak shit. 

I see you have no qualms lying about me.

I see you are incapable of differentiating between a comment about you DATA and a comment about YOU.  

Quote me saying my data is irrelevant or admit your lie.

Everything you've admitted about your data proves it's irrelevance. 

Golly what a smart thing to say. You impress . . . well, no one, really. Thanks for dropping by to attack people, though. It makes it so fun around here. Not.

My comment was meant to convey that I have no intention of joining your pity party. If you're here for 'fun' I'd suggest that you post more thoughtful comments.

Hope that clears things up. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.37  Tacos!  replied to  Dulay @3.1.36    one week ago
My comment was meant to convey that I have no intention of joining your pity party. If you're here for 'fun' I'd suggest that you post more thoughtful comments.

Seriously, just don't talk to me any more. You have not added to the conversation. All you have to done is post dickish attacks. If Perrie has a problem with my response, she can say so. I don't owe you shit.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.38  Dulay  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.37    one week ago
Seriously, just don't talk to me any more.

As long as you reply, I will. 

You have not added to the conversation.

Except getting you to admit that you replied to Perrie's data with irrelevant 'global' data. 

All you have to done is post dickish attacks.

Except getting you to admit that you replied to Perrie's data with irrelevant 'global' data.

If Perrie has a problem with my response, she can say so. I don't owe you shit.

Never said you did.

You DO however STILL have the burden to prove your own statements, which you have utterly failed to do. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.39  Tacos!  replied to  Dulay @3.1.38    one week ago
Except getting you to admit that you replied to Perrie's data with irrelevant 'global' data.

Stop repeating this lie.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.40  Dulay  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.39    one week ago
Stop repeating this lie.

It's not a lie. Anyone reading the thread can tell that for themselves. I don't expect you to admit it. It's not your MO. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
3.1.41  Tacos!  replied to  Dulay @3.1.40    one week ago
It's not a lie.

Then you should be able to quote me saying the words "my data is irrelevant." You can't. It's a lie.

Additionally, I obviously don't think that. I think my data was totally relevant. Any further attempt by you to spread lies about me and the things I say will be flagged and I will seek justice from the mods. Stop now.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.42  Dulay  replied to  Tacos! @3.1.41    one week ago
Then you should be able to quote me saying the words "my data is irrelevant." You can't. It's a lie.

I didn't say that you said that your data is irrelevant. I said you admitted that it was. You did so by making this statement:

And I just chose the first web page I came across that listed a bunch of things people die of.

So since your comment was unresponsive and you just posted 'a bunch of things people die of' I presume it's because you were just being either lazy or argumentative because that's what gives you thrills.

Additionally, I obviously don't think that. I think my data was totally relevant.

I didn't say you thought that your date is irrelevant, I said you admitted that it was. 

Any further attempt by you to spread lies about me and the things I say will be flagged and I will seek justice from the mods.

Flag away. 

Stop now.

Nope. 

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.43  Krishna  replied to  Dean Moriarty @3.1.2    one week ago
We are choosing to fight this standing tall and are not going to let a virus destroy our livelihood. 

Sort of like what the've been doing in Sweden?

Sweden never issued a formal lockdown in response to the coronavirus pandemic. Most businesses, restaurants, bars, and schools have remained open.

 
 
 
cjcold
3.2  cjcold  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @3    2 weeks ago

I doubt that most of the protestors ever took any science classes in school. If they did, they flunked out.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.2.1  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  cjcold @3.2    2 weeks ago

I don't get them either. We are the only country to behave this way. What does that say about us?

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
3.2.2  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.2.1    2 weeks ago

we're a bunch of spoiled primadonna A wholes...

 
 
 
bccrane
4  bccrane    2 weeks ago

So New York City has 3.9 million who already have the antibody and 343,000 confirmed cases,  this to me seems like a very weak virus.  The virus in New York City is already bumping into antibodies and herd immunity will slow the virus down even more, spreading cases, and unfortunately deaths, over a greater time frame, doesn't that also flatten the curve to ease the healthcare system.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
4.1  FLYNAVY1  replied to  bccrane @4    2 weeks ago

And that poses the question of how long does the immunity last.  If it last 2-3 years we can reach herd immunity.  If only say six months, you can forget about that approach.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
4.1.1  Greg Jones  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @4.1    2 weeks ago

For what scientific and medical reason shouldn't immunity last?

What's so special about this virus, which is just a new variant of an older strain?

 
 
 
r.t..b...
4.1.2  r.t..b...  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.1    2 weeks ago
What's so special about this virus,

Over 1,000,000 infected and approaching 80,000 lives lost...to date. That is 80,000 families with their lives upended as they mourn the loss of a loved one.

For those of us that have experienced that loss and are postponing a celebration of a life well lived, please do not diminish the effects of this virus with such dismissive, politically motivated remarks.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
4.1.3  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.1    2 weeks ago

You're hopeless Greg.  Turn off Fox and start reading medical reports and news.

RESEARCHERS DON'T HAVE DATA ON IMMUNITY DURATION YET FOR COVID-19!

Can you grasp why each year they change the formulation of the flu vaccine?  Start there and let your mind wonder.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.4  JohnRussell  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @4.1.3    2 weeks ago
Turn off Fox

Sean Hannity recently told his audience that "Obamagate" is the biggest scandal in American history. 

They are planning to lie for the next six months. Get your hip boots on. 

 
 
 
loki12
4.1.5  loki12  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.4    2 weeks ago
They are planning to lie for the next six months

And that will be thirty months less than the retarded left wing media like Coumo and Maddow has lied about Russia collusion.  The difference is the Obama administration actually did what Hannity claimed.....The retarded left wing media still has nothing on Russian collusion. Morons!

 
 
 
lib50
4.1.6  lib50  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.4    2 weeks ago

Of course, they can't even explain what it means.  Either Trump is waiting for Hannity or vice versa, but someone is working on the lie to scapegoat Obama.  We would LOVE for Obama to be called in to testify in a senate hearing.  And Mitch knows it. The Trump Death Clock keeps ticking up.  No way to deflect from that.

 
 
 
lib50
4.1.7  lib50  replied to  loki12 @4.1.5    2 weeks ago

Read the freaking Mueller report, Trump Russia connections are rampant throughout.

ps, Flynn wasn't spied on.  Kislyak was the Russian being monitored, and Flynn was the traitor.  Who LIED to the FBI and plead guilty of it.  TWICE.  Guilty as hell.  All the maga lies in the world won't change those facts. 

 
 
 
XDm9mm
4.1.8  XDm9mm  replied to  lib50 @4.1.7    2 weeks ago
Read the freaking Mueller report,

That you're still holding that out as a viable report is simply astounding.

Hell, "Mueller" had as much input into that piece of trash as Trump had in Obamacare.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
4.1.9  Sean Treacy  replied to  lib50 @4.1.7    2 weeks ago

king Mueller report, Trump Russia connections are rampant throughout.

Say it with me, Mueller did not find any coordination, conspiracy or collusion  between Russia and any member of the Trump campaign staff or adminstrationn to interfere in the election .

Not a single criminal charge was ever filed claiming there was.

Sad this has to keep being repeated, but an addiction to imaginary news is strong among some on the left. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.10  JohnRussell  replied to  lib50 @4.1.6    2 weeks ago

I think "Obamagate" is aimed at Biden. 

The blunt truth is Trump cannot afford to have voters thinking about him. His only chance is if he can dirty up Biden, and we will see these lies every day for the ext six months. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.11  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.1.9    2 weeks ago

Let's give truth serum to everyone who worked on the Trump campaign and all of his family members. 

Frankly, the fact that Trump attempted to collude with Ukraine to effect the 2020 election makes it much more plausible that he tried to or did collude with Russians in 2016. 

Trump did not co-operate with Mueller. He did not submit to a live interview and lied (or had a loss of memory) in his written answers. The Mueller report says that numerous Trump campaign members did not produce emails or phone records or had lapses of memory. It is far from "proven" there was no collusion, but at the least there was a welcoming of Russian interference without comment or objection. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
4.1.12  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.10    2 weeks ago

Imagine if voters are thinking about Biden?

From yesterday:

"We're in the middle of a pandemic that has cost us more than 85,000 jobs as of today. Lives of millions of people, millions of people, millions of jobs. " Um, and uh, and I’m not, and I, I have a, I have a uh, like all of you but every day I get between an hour & an hour & a half brief with um, uh, the former head of, our former surgeon general, anyway, with docs across the country."

Imagine if the media wasn't 100% invested in protecting him .

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
4.1.13  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.11    2 weeks ago
Trump did not co-operate with Mueller

Sure he did. Gave him access tens of thousands  of priviliged documents.  He allowed his  lawyer to speak for 30 some hours under oath when he could have claimed privilige. He did exponentially more then he had to legally.  There was no there, there as the mueller report proves. 

ut at the least there was a welcoming of Russian interference without comment or objection. 

Compare that to paying millions of dollars to obtain lies about your opponent from Putin officals. 

 
 
 
loki12
4.1.14  loki12  replied to  lib50 @4.1.7    2 weeks ago

Lie!!!!! every Obama official under oath including Brennan and Rice.. No evidence of collusion.  Only a fucking moron would believe there was after the house report was released.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.15  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.1.12    2 weeks ago

Imagine if Trump didnt have 35 or 40 percent of voters who would vote for him if he murdered someone. 

Biden stutters. He has made many recent statements and comments where he has no problem speaking. 

Trump is an idiot. He has made more factual mistakes in public statements and comments than the other 43 presidents put together. 

 
 
 
loki12
4.1.16  loki12  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.1.13    2 weeks ago

Hey Sean, did you see where Crowd strike said under oath they had NO evidence that Russia hacked the DNC?  How long did we have to listen to the low functioning bleat that bullshit?  You have to be an idiot to still beat the Russia drum.

 
 
 
loki12
4.1.17  loki12  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.15    2 weeks ago
if he murdered someone.

How many fucking retards still support Obama after he murdered someone?  How many Americans did Obama order executed without due process John?

 
 
 
XDm9mm
4.1.18  XDm9mm  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.15    2 weeks ago
He has made many recent statements and comments where he has no problem speaking.

From his basement and everything is limited to less than 5 minutes.  

Let's see him on stage in a two hour debate with Trump and legitimate questioners.   No questions like:   

Vice President Biden, is Joe your first name?   

President Trump, as we're still fighting a global pandemic, why did you not see this coming in 2017 when you took office?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.19  JohnRussell  replied to  XDm9mm @4.1.18    2 weeks ago

Id like to see one of the debate questioners ask Trump this

"why do you lie so much?"

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
4.1.20  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.19    2 weeks ago
"why do you lie so much?"

Simple answer really, "Because I can"..........................."Next question?"

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
4.1.21  Trout Giggles  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.20    2 weeks ago

Actually, that's the truth. His supporters will clap and yell "Good one, Your Majesty!"

 
 
 
XDm9mm
4.1.22  XDm9mm  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.19    2 weeks ago
Id like to see one of the debate questioners ask Trump this "why do you lie so much?"

Simple answer

handle-truth.jpg

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.23  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.20    2 weeks ago

and you think that is a good (acceptable) answer? 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.24  JohnRussell  replied to  XDm9mm @4.1.22    2 weeks ago

He doesnt know the truth. 

 
 
 
XDm9mm
4.1.25  XDm9mm  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.24    2 weeks ago
He doesnt know the truth. 

Re-read 4.1.22     XDm9mm   above.  Pay particular attention to the centered picture of Jack Nicholson when he played Col. Nathan Jessup in "A Few Good Men"  

Truer words were never spoken to the Trump haters of America.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
4.1.26  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.23    2 weeks ago
and you think that is a good (acceptable) answer? 

To an irrelevant, dumbass question, why yes, yes I do.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.27  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.26    2 weeks ago

You think the president of the United States lying to the people thousands of times is "irrelevant" ?

That is why people ridicule Trumpsters. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
4.1.28  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.27    2 weeks ago

Irrelevant. What affect could an answer to that question even reveal? The question was "why do you lie so much"? That has nothing to do with the upcoming campaign and beside that, EVERYONE knows he lies. But they are also smart enough to realize that not a single fucking one of those lies has affected them or anyone they know negatively. It is only a gotcha for people that need to scrutinize every breath he takes...................because THEY can and clearly, you do.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
4.1.29  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.28    2 weeks ago
The question was "why do you lie so much"? That has nothing to do with the upcoming campaign and beside that, EVERYONE knows he lies.

Native-App-Preloads-What.png

Then what is the point of him campaigning if all he is going to do is lie to all questions?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
4.1.30  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.29    2 weeks ago
he is going to do is lie to all questions?

Who said that? LMAO

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
4.2  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  bccrane @4    2 weeks ago
So New York City has 3.9 million who already have the antibody

Where did you get that number because it is not even close. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
4.2.1  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @4.2    2 weeks ago

The whole thread above this is off topic. I am locking that thread. 

 
 
 
bccrane
4.2.2  bccrane  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @4.2    2 weeks ago

Ok, I'm back, kinda got busy.  The number came from the 21.2% of those tested having the antibody already and taking that percentage against the population of New York City of 18.8 million.

As a side note I see I missed a lot.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
4.2.3  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  bccrane @4.2.2    2 weeks ago

HI bccrane,

Yup you seemed to miss some of the action here. That's OK. Life happens. 

I am unsure where you got your number from. NYC has only tested 15,000 people and only 12% are positive for the antibody. I think you might have gotten that confused with just the number of people tested for covid infection.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-05-02/new-york-gov-andrew-cuomo-says-15-000-tested-for-coronavirus-antibodies

 
 
 
bccrane
4.2.4  bccrane  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @4.2.3    2 weeks ago

 And even in hard-hit regions, such as New York City, preliminary testing of 1,300 people found that 21.2 percent were positive for antibodies.

That came from the article above, was that a misprint in the article, but then again they then stated that would mean 80% of the people of NYC are walking around without immunity.  But even using the 12% number there are 2.25 million NY Citians walking around already immune, still way more than actual cases recorded.

 
 
 
bccrane
4.2.5  bccrane  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @4.2.3    2 weeks ago

Also sorry about getting back kinda late again, but if you have been following DS's Garden Chronicles Week 6, I've been busy, but not what one wants to be doing.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
5  Sean Treacy    2 weeks ago

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/15/us-retail-sales-april-2020.html

People should start thinking about what the long term implications of this type of data is. 

As we head off into a depression, start thinking about what's going to happen to our health care system, food supply etc as the economy stops. 

 
 
 
XDm9mm
5.1  XDm9mm  replied to  Sean Treacy @5    2 weeks ago
As we head off into a depression, start thinking about what's going to happen to our health care system, food supply etc as the economy stops.

On a personal note, I and obviously by extension my entire family is good for at least a year.  We do have a familial collective plan to put in operation if the SHTF in a serious way.  But then, we're what some like to call deplorables as we have always had a tendency to be, well somewhat self reliant.

I've also had some wonderful discussions with other friends and neighbors that are also if not exceptionally at least sufficiently prepared for whatever may come our way.   

However, I do hope that we do not need to put those plans into action.   When we beat or at least tame the virus, and President Trump gets reelected, we can get to the tasks at hand of rebuilding America, and by extension, the world, that the Communist Party of China almost destroyed.

Buy American, from American owned and operated companies using as much American made materials as possible.  Keep your American neighbor, wherever in this great country they live working for their own and the countries good.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
5.1.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  XDm9mm @5.1    2 weeks ago

jrSmiley_28_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
6  Sean Treacy    2 weeks ago

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/05/15/the_costly_failure_to_update_sky-is-falling_predictions_143215.html

This is a grreat article demonstrating the tendency of our media to "memory hole" wrong expert predictions and move onto the next scare tactic. You don't see anyone talking about how wrong the claims were that Georiga was engaging in "human sacrifice" now that the data has come in.:

"We obviously need to get policy right here, and to be sure, reporting bad news is important for producing informed public opinion. But reporting good news is equally as important. Third, there are dangers to forecasting with  incredible certitude , especially with a virus that was detected less than six months ago. There really is a lot we still don’t know, and people should be reminded of this. Finally, among people who  do  remember things like this, a failure to acknowledge errors foments cynicism and further distrust of experts. The damage done to this trust is dangerous, for at this time we desperately need quality expert opinions and news reporting that we can rely upon. "

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sean Treacy @6    2 weeks ago

Sean, 

The media is the media. Their job is to make drama. But that being said, we are dealing with an unknown. Also the outcome that we are seeing is not unusual if the virus is one that fades in the summer, which does seem to be the case. 

We will not know what the outcome will be in the fall. The 1918 pandemic came in 3 waves and we could end up like they did. Again, an unknown. 

Hopefully they are able to fast track a vaccine. The whole world is depending on this. Herd immunity will not work for us, as the article explained. 

 
 
 
bugsy
6.1.1  bugsy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1    2 weeks ago
Their job is to make drama.

Only in liberal land. The true and ONLY job of the media is to report the news, the true news.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.2  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  bugsy @6.1.1    2 weeks ago
Their job is to make drama. Only in liberal land. The true and ONLY job of the media is to report the news, the true news.

Oh BS. Conservative news make their own drama, it's just a different kind. Not everything is partisan. 

 
 
 
bugsy
6.1.3  bugsy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1.2    2 weeks ago
Conservative news make their own drama

Never said they didn't. I said  in liberal land, THE MEDIA'S job is to make drama. YOU automatically ASSumed I was speaking of liberal news only,.

Apology accepted.....maybe

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.4  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  bugsy @6.1.3    2 weeks ago

First of all if that is a coy answer. If you meant to be nonpartisan, you would have said that all media makes drama, but you only said only Liberal media does it. There was nothing to ASSume. You made the point. 

I won't bother asking for an apology for calling me an ass. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
6.1.5  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1    2 weeks ago
r job is to make drama

Nah. They are way to self important for that. They see themselves as watchdogs, participants in the process who support the good guys (Democrats) and expose the bad guys (Republicans).  It's not a coincidence that their mistakes work to one sides advantage. As Poitico's Marc Caputo pointed out in comparing the coverage Cuomo vs DaSantis:

"That is, Florida just doesn’t look nearly as bad as the national news media and sky-is-falling critics have been predicting for about two months now. But then, the national news media is mostly based in New York and loves to love its Democratic governor, Andrew Cuomo, about as much as it loves to hate on Florida’s Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis.

First, let’s just come out and say it: DeSantis looks more right than those who criticized the Sunshine State’s coronavirus response. According to the latest Florida figures, fewer than   2,000   have died, and around 43,000 have been infected. That’s a fraction of the dire predictions made for Florida when spring breakers swarmed the beaches, and those numbers are dwarfed by similarly sized New York, which has seen 12 times more deaths and nearly eight times more infections. (Check out   POLITICO’s coronavirus tracker   for more.) More people reportedly died in New York nursing homes than in all of Florida...

 Cuomo also has something else DeSantis doesn’t: a press that defers to him, one that preferred to cover “ Florida Morons ” at the beach (where it’s relatively hard to get infected) over New Yorkers riding cramped subway cars (where it’s easy to get infected). In fact, people can still ride the subways for most hours of the day in New York, but Miami Beach’s sands remain closed. Maybe things would be different if DeSantis had a brother who worked in cable news and interviewed him for a “ sweet moment ” in primetime. "

We will not know what the outcome will be in the fall. 

Well sure. But we do know the predictions about what would happen in the short term were often spectacularly wrong and were presented with certitude and used to attack anyone who questioned their premise. The point of the article is that experts and the media to stop  selling "certainity" and be honest about how much they don't know. 

opefully they are able to fast track a vaccine.

There's a very good chance they won't. Simply assuming  there will be one found and able to be distributed in a year or 18 months is not a viable strategy either.  Waiting for a vaccine that may never come is also not a viable strategy.

 
 
 
bugsy
6.1.6  bugsy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1.4    2 weeks ago
but you only said only Liberal media does it.

Again...that is not what I said. I said that the left does not want to report the news as facts, they only want to manufacture drama, especially when it comes to Trump.

Please stop using the left tactic of trying to argue something that was never said. We conservatives have noticed that happening alot lately on here.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.7  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  bugsy @6.1.6    2 weeks ago

Bugsy, scan up. Here is what you said

but you only said only Liberal media does it.
Again...that is not what I said. I said that the left does not want to report the news as facts, they only want to manufacture drama, especially when it comes to Trump.
Only in liberal land. The true and ONLY job of the media is to report the news, the true news.

So if I got that wrong, please explain to me how. To me it reads that only liberal media creates drama. How am I wrong?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.8  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sean Treacy @6.1.5    2 weeks ago

Conservative media is every bit as interested as liberal media is on showing their side as " watchdogs, participants in the process who support the good guys and expose the bad guys . " respective to their POV. It would be disingenuous to say otherwise. 

You are blaming NYC media now for reporting on Florida. Odd? I do believe that Fox News is in NYC, too. 

Cuomo also has something else DeSantis doesn’t: a press that defers to him, one that preferred to cover “ Florida Morons ” at the beach (where it’s relatively hard to get infected) over New Yorkers riding cramped subway cars (where it’s easy to get infected).

First of all, nothing stops De Santis from a daily breeding. And because one paper reported using the term, "Florida Morons", doesn't mean that all of our papers are reporting it that way. I can cherry-pick from our papers (like the NY Post), where all they do is lambast Cuomo.  And this lie that the subway cars are cramped has been said over and over and is not true. They are hardly being used since the stay at home order. 

We will not know what the outcome will be in the fall.  Well sure. But we do know the predictions about what would happen in the short term were often spectacularly wrong and were presented with certitude and used to attack anyone who questioned their premise.

Were they spectacularly wrong? Define that. I took note of the day Florida opened up. On 5/2 their numbers were 35,463 infected and 1,364 dead, not counting the out of staters and Canadians who were there for the winter, which is a neat little trick. Today, slightly over 2 weeks later their numbers are 46,442 infected and 2,000 dead. Raw numbers that is an increase of 10,979 infected and 636 more dead or as a percentage of increase 31% more infected and 32% increase in dead. I realize that these are not the numbers that has happened in NY, but it is summer and the infection got their later. That being said, there was an increase, while NY numbers have been dropping. 

There's a very good chance they won't. Simply assuming  there will be one found and able to be distributed in a year or 18 months is not a viable strategy either.  Waiting for a vaccine that may never come is also not a viable strategy.

It's a world project and not just an American one. There are 3 advanced vaccines being in human trials right now, England, Italy and the US and many more underway. I don't see a viable strategy without one, since we have learned from Sweden, that herd immunity doesn't work. So let's hope for the best, in this regard. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
6.1.9  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1.8    2 weeks ago
interested as liberal media is on showing their side as " watchdogs, participants in the process who support the good guys and expose the bad guys . " respective to their POV. It would be disingenuous to say otherwise. 

Yes, Perrie. But pretty much every news outlet other than Fox News and some assorted papers and online sites (that are always labeled as conservative media) are liberal and dominare the market. So we are talking about ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, the NYT, the Washington Post, Politico, to the late night shows to even SNL.  See why that's an issue?

ou are blaming NYC media now for reporting on Florida. Odd? I do believe that Fox News is in NYC, too

DId  you not understand the point made by Politico? It's not that the media "reported" it's that the media's reporting was wrong and biased against Desantis, while praising Cuomo despite the reality on the ground.   While Florida was attacked and  DeSantis mocked, NY was the, in the words the media used to describe a southern state, engaging in human sacrifice with mismanagment that turned NY into the virus center of the world. 

Just imagine, honestly, what the reporting would be about Florida if their numebrs and New Yorks were reversed. The MSM would be calling for DeSantis' head on a pike. 

othing stops De Santis from a daily breeding

That has nothing to do with it and you know it. This is when I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone, when people start claiming the MSM has treated Cuomo and Desantis the same way.  . No one who has  paid any attention to the media can possibly make that argument with  a straight face. 

s lie that the subway cars are cramped has been said over and over and is not true. They are hardly being used since the stay at home order.

well, first off, you admit they were being used. Second, the subway seeded the outbreak. Third, the stay at home order came to late.

Were they spectacularly wrong?

Yes. Go back and read some of the apcolyptic predictions about Florida. Yet even though New York and Florida are about the same size, New York has ten times as many deaths. More people died in NY nursing homes then they did in the entire state of Florida.  Again, this is one of those arguments that I can't believe is neccessary? Did you just flush all the talk about what a disaster Florida was supposed to be down the memory hole?

There are 3 advanced vaccines being in human trials right now, England, Italy and the US and many more underway

That's great, but there's no gaurantee any of them will ever work. There  just isn't. Herd immunity maybe the only viable strategy. Sitting around in houses for years until   we starve to death isn't a great idea. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.10  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sean Treacy @6.1.9    2 weeks ago
Yes, Perrie. But pretty much every news outlet other than Fox News and some assorted papers and online sites (that are always labeled as conservative media) are liberal and dominare the market. So we are talking about ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, the NYT, the Washington Post, Politico....... DId  you not understand the point made by Politico?

Do you not get the irony of that? In fact, Politico, and other papers like The Hill are considered center of the road. And look at the demographics or all those news networks outlets including papers:

PJ_2020.01.24_media-polarization_2-01.pn

Overall, Republicans (and independents who lean Republican) get political and election news from a smaller group of sources than Democrats, with an overwhelming reliance on one source – Fox News. Democrats (including independents who lean Democratic), on the other hand, use a wider range of sources.

Six-in-ten Republicans say they got news from the Fox News cable network in the past week. After Fox News, there is a huge gap before the next most turned-to sources – ABC News, NBC News and CBS News, all at similar levels (30%, 28%, and 26% respectively).

Despite Republicans’ deep distrust of CNN, it is among the more commonly used sources among Republicans, with 24% who got political news there in the past week. Next come the radio shows of Sean Hannity (19%) and Rush Limbaugh (17%). No other source tops 15% among Republicans.

On the Democratic side, CNN is turned to by the greatest portion, with 53% saying they got political news there in the past week. As is the case with Republicans, the three major commercial broadcast networks are the next most turned to sources of political news for Democrats, albeit in bigger doses — NBC (40%), ABC (37%) and CBS (33%).

One-third of Democrats also got news from cable channel MSNBC (33%) in the past week. A similar share got political news from The New York Times (31%) and NPR (30%). About a quarter got news from The Washington Post (26%) and Fox News (23%).

Amid these divides, there are some in each party who turn to the most relied-on sources of the other party: Roughly a quarter of Republicans (24%) got political news from CNN in the past week, which virtually matches the percentage of Democrats (23%) who say the same of Fox News. In other words, even amid the tendency of partisans to seek political news from different sources, there is still some overlap in what partisans see.

Partisan divides lead to one-sided audiences for many news outlets

https://www.journalism.org/2020/01/24/americans-are-divided-by-party-in-the-sources-they-turn-to-for-political-news/

So it really doesn't matter how many sources there are, it's all about who we seek out.  

While Florida was attacked and  DeSantis mocked, NY was the, in the words the media used to describe a southern state, engaging in human sacrifice with mismanagment that turned NY into the virus center of the world. 

And this goes to show how skewed your POV is. Florida might be south, but I have never heard anyone refer to it as a southern state, as in the "Old South", so stop right there. And I fact that you can call NY mismanaged and not somehow not see the real cause for what happened here, just tells me that where you get your news from. I live here. I know what was and wasn't mismanaged and who to blame for what and the things that bare no blame whatsoever. 

o thing stops De Santis from a daily breeding That has nothing to do with it and you know it. This is when I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone, when people start claiming the MSM has treated Cuomo and Desantis the same way.  . No one who has  paid any attention to the media can possibly make that argument with  a straight face. 

It has definitely everything to do with it. The entire country knows Cuomo now. He is carried on every station, including Fox. The ability to communicate with people counts. You should know about that. That is how Trump won.

well, first off, you admit they were being used. Second, the subway seeded the outbreak. Third, the stay at home order came to late.

Well, first , I never said they were not. Second, the subway was not what seeded it. It was one super spreader from New Rochelle and the seeds were spread when no one and I mean no one knew what we were dealing with. Also, you seem to forget that we get in people from all over the world to our airports. Over a 110 million people annually pass through the 3 major airports here. Do you think that might have had something to do with it? That is literally a third of the US population to put that in perspective for you. Finally, we got our 1st case literally March 1 and our second on March 3. Limitations started on March 12 finally stay at home on March 20th. Basically 2 weeks later from case 2, which is the standard incubation period for the disease. So please tell me, what crystal ball should he have had? Yet you keep repeating the same thing over and over without giving a single fact or date while I provide them. 

Yes. Go back and read some of the apcolyptic predictions about Florida. Yet even though New York and Florida are about the same size, New York has ten times as many deaths.

You know Sean, this is ridiculous. The reason that the predictions were made was because we saw what happened in NYC. But somehow NYC was wrong for not taking precautions soon enough when we knew so little about this disease, but expecting the same in Florida is outrageous after we watched what happened in NY. There is just no winning with you. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
6.1.11  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1.10    2 weeks ago
In fact, Politico, and other papers like The Hill are considered center of the roa

Yes perrie. A reporter at Politico reported the obvious. After months of a narrative being pushed, one rogue article is published on the internet and that's supposed to negate the months of misinformation?  This has been the pattern of the MSM for years now, months of falsehoods, followed by an article of correction. 

Moreover, this is a site founded by a man who recently wrote he doesn't want an investigation of Biden regarding  Reade, he wants a coronation. He doesn't want justice he just wants to beat Trump. That's what passes for centrist these days, I guess. 

yes, I'm not sure why that's relevant to my point that the overwhelming majority of media is liberal.  Has that even been debatable this century as it's gone from leans left to simply rooting for Democrats? Study after study shows how biased the media is. 

o it really doesn't matter how many sources there are, it's all about who we seek out.  

Yes, but 90% of the people or so are consuming media pitching the same message and don't actively seek out opposing views. They are passive consumers.  Anyone whom wanted to understand what was going on during the Russian collusion hoax had to seek out an alternative to the propaganda machines that spent years obsessing about "russian collusion" that never existed. The same outlets  who ridiculed any argument that the FBI was less than above board in how it came to spy on Carter Page.  Anyone who gets their news from ABC, CBS, the NYT etc..has spent   years getting pitched false narratives before a sudden switch for a single news cycle contradicting  everything they've been told when Mueller or the IG finally shows their work. Then it's immediately onto the  next anti-Trump conspiracy with no acknowledgment of what went wrong and apologists who claim the single newcycle of reporting what actually happened makes up for the months or years of falsehoods.

Also, you seem to forget that we get in people from all over the world to our airports. 

You don't think Florida has international tourism? 

 Over a 110 million people annually pass through the 3 major airports here.

Which is less then pass through Florida's three largest airports. 

Finally, we got our 1st case literally March 1 and our second on March 3

First off, Florida also had its first diagnosed case on March 1. 

But let's be clear, cases were present well before than. You seem to be demonstrating Trump's claim  that only cases that are tested and identified exist. There were undoubtedly tens of thousands of cases present by the middle of March in New York. 

In order for the spread of confirmed cases to have reached above 80,000 in New York tby April 1, there had to be tens of  thousands well before that. . Since   80,000 confirmed cases by April 1 means at least a million actual infections, the math is clear that tens, if not hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers were infected before any shutdown was put in place. 

There is just no winning with you

Again Perrie, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the media who attacked DeSantis while building up Cuomo, despite the reality of what was happening on the ground.   It's simply inexcusable and impossible to justify given what the data shows actually happened. In no sane world can DeSantis be attacked as an inhuman monster while Cuomo is lionized for their responses.  You can defend Cuomo all you want, that still doesn't justify the attacks on DeSantis. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.12  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sean Treacy @6.1.11    2 weeks ago

OK I am going to keep this brief, since I hate banging my head against the wall. 

Yes perrie. A reporter at Politico reported the obvious.

No, a reporter who you spent a lot of time trying to discredit reported fairly. That was the point, wasn't it?

Biden, Reade, Trump, Russia are all off topic Not going there.

Over a 110 million people annually pass through the 3 major airports here. Which is less then pass through Florida's three largest airports. 

Um no. But I am tired of doing all the homework here. Check out this link:

https://www.claimcompass.eu/blog/biggest-busiest-us-airports/

Finally, we got our 1st case literally March 1 and our second on March 3

First off, Florida also had its first diagnosed case on March 1. 

But let's be clear, cases were present well before than. You seem to be demonstrating Trump's claim  that only cases that are tested and identified exist. There were undoubtedly tens of thousands of cases present by the middle of March in New York. 

Really if we were being clear, it will take years till we know what actually happened.   And that is not Trump's claim, that is what Dr. Fochi and Dr. Brix are summarizing along with the CDC and the NIH. As for what the numbers were will only come in some time in the future. Every number you threw out after that, no other doctor has done. They are all saying that no one can tell until we have wide testing of antibodies and we have not. So you are just guessing and your not a virologist, or immunologist. You're not even a doctor as far as I know.

Again Perrie, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the media who attacked DeSantis while building up Cuomo, despite the reality of what was happening on the ground.   It's simply inexcusable and impossible to justify given what the data shows actually happened.

Except there is no data. Nothing solid other than the known infected and the known dead. And that is why I am done with this, Sean. you have brought not a single hard fact to this discussion while using hyperbolic verbiage like " DeSantis be attacked as an inhuman monster" when I have never heard that and again I am tired of doing all the work. 

 
 
 
dennis smith
6.1.13  dennis smith  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6.1.2    2 weeks ago

There is left spinning and right spinning news media. They are not much different than the Dem and Repub parties and their left and right partisanship.

 
 
 
The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
7  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"    2 weeks ago

The hysteria forced one of the worst decisions in our history, to implode our economy voluntarily.

Protect the high risk, open the economy as we have no other choice.

Those wishing for an extended lock-down have nefarious motives. The American people have to work, if you want to shelter in your home, have at it.

 
 
 
loki12
7.1  loki12  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @7    2 weeks ago

They should put it to a vote, every elected official who votes to maintain the shutdown forfeits their pay and perks until unemployment reach's 4 percent,  along with every member of their staff.   It's about saving lives.......right?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
7.2  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @7    2 weeks ago
Protect the high risk, open the economy as we have no other choice.

There is no such thing as high risk. There are plenty of people in good health who have died. You can't bring back the dead, but you can always bring back an economy, especially when we are talking about a world economy. 

Those wishing for an extended lock-down have nefarious motives.

Who wants an extended lockdown? No one I know. 

 
 
Loading...
Loading...

Who is online


Dean Moriarty


23 visitors