Mississippi Legislature passes bill to eliminate Confederate symbol from state flag

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  2 weeks ago  •  108 comments

By:   Doha Madani and Tim Stelloh

Mississippi Legislature passes bill to eliminate Confederate symbol from state flag
Mississippi lawmakers voted to remove the Confederate battle emblem from the state flag, a symbol that has flown for more than 120 years.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Mississippi lawmakers voted Sunday to remove the Confederate battle emblem from the state flag, a symbol that has flown for more than 120 years.

The state House and Senate approved a suspension of the rules Saturday, allowing for debate and a vote on the bill. It passed the House on Sunday by a vote of 91-23, quickly followed by a 37-14 Senate vote.

Speaking before the vote, Democratic state Sen. Derrick Simmons urged his colleagues to vote for the "Mississippi of tomorrow."

"In the name of history, I stand for my two sons, who are 1 and 6 years old, who should be educated in schools and be able to frequent businesses and express their Black voices in public places that all fly a symbol of love, not hate," he said.

n_msnbc_brk_mississippi_flag_200628_1920x1080.focal-760x428.jpg

Mississippi House votes to remove Confederate emblem from state flag


June 28, 202000:41

Before the vote, an amendment that would have given voters the opportunity to keep the flag or select a new design failed. Speaking in favor of a referendum, Republican Sen. Chris McDaniel said people were angry because they wanted a chance to weigh in.

"We've been told this is a moment of unity," he said. "I checked social media last night, and I didn't see very much unity. They don't feel like they have a voice in a really interesting time in our country's history."

The bill's text calls for the formation of a commission that would be in charge of a flag redesign that eliminates the Confederate symbol but keeps the slogan "In God We Trust." A redesign approved by the committee will then be placed on the November ballot.

If voters reject the new design in November, the commission will try again for a new flag that would be presented to the Legislature during the 2021 session.

Republican Gov. Tate Reeves, who had expressed resistance to legislators' changing the flag, said he would sign the bill if it came across his desk.

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'Time for waiting is over': Mississippi mayor orders removal of Confederate flag


June 27, 202002:15

"The Legislature has been deadlocked for days as it considers a new state flag," Reeves said in a tweet Saturday morning. "The argument over the 1894 flag has become as divisive as the flag itself and it's time to end it. If they send me a bill this weekend, I will sign it."

Reeves had said that any change to the flag should come through a popular vote rather than the Legislature. He acknowledged in a Facebook post Thursday, however, that vetoing such legislation would be "pointless."

The president of the NCAA, which had threatened to bar championship games from the state if the Confederate symbol wasn't removed, said Sunday that he looked forward to Reeve signing the bill.

"It has too long served as a symbol of oppression, racism and injustice," NCAA President Mark Emmert said in a statement. "We welcome this important move by state lawmakers to remove the symbol from prominence in the state, which will also open the opportunity to host NCAA championships after the recently expanded championship policy."

The current flag, featuring red, white and blue stripes with the Confederate battle emblem in the corner, was adopted in February 1894, according to the Mississippi Historical Society.

Other attempts to change the flag have fallen short over the years, including a 2001 public referendum in which Mississippi voters were given a chance to change the flag. The proposal failed, as 64 percent voted against a redesign.

Mississippi's decision to change the 126-year-old flag comes during a new reckoning on racial inequality in America. In the weeks since the May 25 death of George Floyd in Minneapolis police custody, protesters across the country have demanded systemic changes in policing while seeking to remove symbols of oppression.

Among the structures that have been targeted are statues of Confederate President Jefferson Davis in Virginia, President Andrew Jackson in Washington, D.C., and Juan de Onate, a conquistador in Albuquerque, New Mexico.


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Paula Bartholomew
1  Paula Bartholomew    2 weeks ago

I can't wait to see the new one.

 
 
 
Split Personality
2  Split Personality    2 weeks ago

Here is the original flag after the Louisianan Purchase.

320

but Texas adopted it officially before joining the Union.

Here is a flag320

that MS claims was adopted just prior to the civil war and the same flag trimmed in red was their battle flag

320

before the 1894

Stars and Bars.

320

MS legislation in 1906 removed the flag as the official state banner but never replaced it.

http://home.olemiss.edu/~mudws/flag/history.htm

 
 
 
Ender
2.1  Ender  replied to  Split Personality @2    2 weeks ago

Yep. Even though the flag used now is seen and more or less is the state flag, technically the state never officially declared one, after they removed the official one from legislature in 1906.

 
 
 
Krishna
2.2  Krishna  replied to  Split Personality @2    2 weeks ago

The flag design reminds me of the flag of South Carolina-- because of a tree. (Although that flag has a Palmetto tree). 

Its also a design from a longtime ago-- but not the Civil War. Rather, I believe the original design of the flag of S.C. dates way back to the American revolutionary war!

IIRC, the design has absolutely no association with either the Confederacy or slavery. 

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
2.3  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Split Personality @2    2 weeks ago

Does the single star denote Mississippi's Yelp rating too?

 
 
 
Suz
3  Suz    2 weeks ago

They should put some Texas Blue-bonnets on their new flag.   They have some giant jackrabbits too. 

What about the tumbleweeds or Remember the Alamo.  I'll not forget it. 

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1  Krishna  replied to  Suz @3    2 weeks ago
Remember the Alamo.  I'll not forget it. 

You actually remember the Alamo?

OMG-- you must be a lot older than you look!

 
 
 
Tacos!
4  Tacos!    2 weeks ago

I believe people on all sides need to find a way to get over the Civil War. Finally eliminating this battle flag from all state flags is a good step in that direction.

 
 
 
Krishna
4.1  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @4    2 weeks ago

I believe people on all sides need to find a way to get over the Civil War.

Many Southerners think about it and talk about ti a lot.

However most Yankess I know never think about it at all. 

Well, now that the topic of the constant murders of innocent African Americans is now frequently in the news --and also now the issues of Confederate statues-- they may think about it occasionally-- but even so most Northerners don't think about it much-- they're very different than most Southerners in that regard. And when they do think about the issue of police violence and protests-- its mostly about current political issues.

But most Southerners I know are still obsessed about the Civil War (or "The War Between Te States as they prefer to call it.) And the glory days of the old South. (Many talk about how their relatives were landed gentry, even wealthy Plantation owners-- until general Sherman's march to the sea-- whe he and his dam yankees stole the family silver. 

 
 
 
Krishna
4.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @4.1    2 weeks ago

But most Southerners I know are still obsessed about the Civil War (or "The War Between The States as they prefer to call it.)

Or (humorously): 

The War for the Suppression of Yankee Insolence!

 
 
 
MonsterMash
4.1.2  MonsterMash  replied to  Krishna @4.1    2 weeks ago
I believe people on all sides need to find a way to get over the Civil War. Many Southerners think about it and talk about ti a lot.

It has been 155 years since the slaves were freed, it's time for blacks to get over slavery and it's way past time for Democratic Party to stop promoting racism by doing their best to keep it alive. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
4.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Tacos! @4    2 weeks ago

The battle flag has no place in this country. The men who carried it were traitors fighting to preserve and expand slavery. That is it. The flag should only be seen in history books. 

I believe people on all sides need to find a way to get over the Civil War.

Easier said than done, especially if you are black and the ending of slavery was only the beginning. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
4.2.1  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.2    2 weeks ago
The flag should only be seen in history books. 

 I would add a couple places , Museums being one , and factual battle re-enactments  for those interested.

But that is simply my personal opinion.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
4.2.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4.2.1    2 weeks ago

You aren't wrong, but not on state flags. They should not be spoken about as some sort of heros or anyone that children should aspire to. Historical context is all toop important, most people who wave the traitor's flag forget that.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
4.2.3  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.2.2    2 weeks ago

On that we could agree , not on current day state flags . other things we would most likely disagree on simply because of our own personal views , and that too is alright and agreeable to myself.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
4.2.4  Thrawn 31  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4.2.3    2 weeks ago

Mark, you seem like a good sort, and I would love to sit down and talk about these things with you. I have the vacation time.

 
 
 
Krishna
4.2.5  Krishna  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.2    2 weeks ago
I believe people on all sides need to find a way to get over the Civil War.
Easier said than done, especially if you are black and the ending of slavery was only the beginning. 

Perhaps it also depends on your definition of "Get over".

Should American Indians have to find a way to 'get over" the Genocide?

Should Jews have thave to find a way to "Get over" The Holocaust?

Should Americans have way to "Get over" what those crazies did to us on 9/11?

Should Central Americans who experienced all those horrors in Central America and fled to the U.S. border only to beimprisoned and having their children stolen from them have to find a way to get over that? 

Should Armenians find a way to "Get over" the Armenian Genocide perpetrated on them by The Turks?

Should eastern Europeans find a way to "get over" what the Soviet Union did to them.

And of course their are numerous other examples...

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
4.2.6  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.2.4    2 weeks ago

we already have talked and disagreed on more than we have agreed, and have usually agreed to disagree.

 
 
 
Krishna
4.2.7  Krishna  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4.2.1    2 weeks ago
I would add a couple places , Museums being one

I think that's a good idea.

In fact, often when people are discussing removing a flag of those traitors (or even an actual  monument) its often suggested that rather than destroying it it be placed in a museum..

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
5  Buzz of the Orient    2 weeks ago

Wow!!!  America is getting quite a makeover.  The expression "Power to the people." Is bursting all over.  I'd say Trump and his disciples are not too happy about what's going down these days.

 
 
 
Krishna
5.1  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5    2 weeks ago

The concept of "An idea whose time has come" is a very real concept.

 
 
 
1776  Traditional American
5.2  1776 Traditional American  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5    2 weeks ago

And the good news is that it will be replaced in their flag with the current motto of the United States.  In God We Trust.  I’m actually looking forward to that.  

 
 
 
Krishna
5.2.1  Krishna  replied to  1776 Traditional American @5.2    2 weeks ago
And the good news is that it will be replaced in their flag with the current motto of the United States.  In God We Trust.  I’m actually looking forward to that.

Why?

 
 
 
MonsterMash
5.2.2  MonsterMash  replied to  1776 Traditional American @5.2    2 weeks ago
And the good news is that it will be replaced in their flag with the current motto of the United States.  In God We Trust.  I’m actually looking forward to that.

Won't happen, Atheist and Democrats heads would explode.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
5.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5    2 weeks ago

Looks like America is finally having a moment of reckoning with our past. As a country we have to own our history, only then can we make things better. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
5.3.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.3    2 weeks ago

Looks more to me that Americans are trying to hide it, rather than own it.   Remember what Santayana said.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
5.3.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3.1    2 weeks ago

Fucking republicans...

 
 
 
GregTx
5.3.3  GregTx  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3.1    2 weeks ago

About history or race and eugenics?

 
 
 
Greg Jones
5.3.4  Greg Jones  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.3.2    2 weeks ago

Fucking republicans...

Don't forget the Confederacy was founded by precursor Democrats. The KKK was started by Democrats, Segregation are racism continued under Democrats for almost another hundred years after the Civil War.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
5.3.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  GregTx @5.3.3    2 weeks ago

I believe Santayana was speaking about history, something like those who ignore (forget?) history are bound to repeat it. 

 
 
 
JBB
5.3.6  JBB  replied to  Greg Jones @5.3.4    2 weeks ago

Only If you will admit the damn gop welcomed the racist Dixiecrats into their fold in 1972 after they were all kicked out of the Democratic Party way back in 1964. In 1968 the partyless racist Dixiectat elements went all in for George Wallace's American Party butt by 1972 they were all in for Nixon and the damn gop. It is just history. American History...

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
5.3.7  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Greg Jones @5.3.4    2 weeks ago
Don't forget the Confederacy was founded by precursor Democrats.

Nobody has forgotten the Southern Democrats were blatant racist. That doesn't change the fact that those same blatant racists today tend to vote Republican. The same white Christian conservative majority in the South that has been in control since our founding in those confederate States is still in control today, they've just called themselves many things through the years, Southern Democrat is just one of their many incarnations. They have also called themselves Democratic Republicans, Conservative Democrats, States Rights Democratis Party, Dixiecrats, and now Republicans.

" The monopoly that the Democratic Party held over most of the South first showed major signs of breaking apart in  1948 , when many white Southern Democrats, upset by the policies of  desegregation  enacted during the administration of Democratic President  Harry Truman , created the  States Rights Democratic Party , which nominated South Carolina Governor  Strom Thurmond  for president. The "Dixiecrats" won most of the deep South (where Truman was not on the ballot). The new party collapsed after the election, while Thurmond became a Republican in the 1960s. The  Civil Rights Act of 1964 , signed by President  Lyndon B. Johnson , although a southern Democrat himself, was unable to rally the party and received heavy opposition from both Southern Democrats and Southern Republicans. Nevertheless, the increasing appeal of national government intervention and subsidies attracted southern African Americans to the Democratic national party, such as by the  Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party . In the ensuing years, the passing of the Civil Rights Act and the increasing conservatism of the Republican Party compared to the central planning of the Democratic Party (especially on Taxation and expansion of government issues) led many white southern Democrats to vote Republican. However, many continued to vote for Democrats at the state and local levels, especially before the  Republican Revolution of 1994 . In 2000–2010, Republicans gained a solid advantage over Democrats at all levels of politics in most Southern states."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats#:~:text=In%20the%2019th%20century%2C%20Southern,who%20believed%20in%20Jacksonian%20democracy.&text=Stephen%20Douglas%20was%20the%20candidate,was%20the%20Republican%20Party%20candidate.

And yes, the Southern strategy did not happen overnight as many of those defending and deflecting for Southern Republicans always point out, that so many local elections were still held by Democrats for another 20 years. But that's the thing about a strategy, it's not something that just flips the political party majority in a dozen States overnight. It was a gradual several decades process, but that process is now complete, the rebirth of the confederacy has come in the form of the current Republican party as they and their members continually, daily, defend the confederacy as they wave their symbols of hate in their fellow black Americans faces.

" From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that... but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the  Voting Rights Act . The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are . " - Nixon's Republican Strategists Kevin Phillips NYT interview 1970

 
 
 
GregTx
5.3.8  GregTx  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @5.3.7    2 weeks ago

Was LBJ one of those Northern Democrats or one of those blatantly racist Southern Democrats?

 
 
 
Krishna
5.3.9  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3.1    2 weeks ago
Remember what Santayana said.

Aren't you thinking of Santana?

Or maybe he's the guy who played Left Out for the Appaloosa Ardvarks Beisbol team?

Actually History is not my area of expertise-- in fact every time I learn some historical fact I forget it again (so I have to keep re-learning it over and over and over again ...)

 
 
 
Krishna
5.3.10  Krishna  replied to  JBB @5.3.6    2 weeks ago
Only If you will admit the damn gop welcomed the racist Dixiecrats into their fold in 1972 after they were all kicked out of the Democratic Party way back in 1964. In 1968 the partyless racist Dixiectat elements went all in for George Wallace's American Party butt by 1972 they were all in for Nixon and the damn gop. It is just history. American History..

Actually I don't think its the Dems who are the problem, but rather the Whig Party (I dunno, I keep forgetting..but  I suppose Santana would say they'd probably keep repeating it over and over...

 
 
 
Krishna
5.3.11  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.3.10    2 weeks ago

Speaking of Santana, here's a little music to brighten your day (Its their Tribute to Rosa Parks :-)

 
 
 
Krishna
5.3.12  Krishna  replied to  Greg Jones @5.3.4    2 weeks ago
Don't forget the Confederacy was founded by precursor Democrats.

Don't be fooled-- t6hat was a different Democratic Party (in terms of the type of people who are members, who support it).

Back then the Dem party was more became acist and Conservative than the Republicans. It someone was a racist, the odds are they were a democrat (Southern Democrat)

But over time it became the opposite. 

(Actually I'm surprised you didn't know that)

 
 
 
Krishna
5.3.13  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.3.12    2 weeks ago
But over time it became the opposite.  (Actually I'm surprised you didn't know that)

Well, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

Its what I've been saying all along-- in recent years public education (In most cases) has been going downhill. 

One result? American kids today don't know much about history!

(And much of what they know is...wrong!)

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
5.3.14  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  GregTx @5.3.8    2 weeks ago
Was LBJ one of those Northern Democrats or one of those blatantly racist Southern Democrats?

I believe LBJ was a racist Southern Democrat opportunist, at least based on some of the recordings I've heard. 

When you look at how the vote was split you can see a few Southern Democrats crossing the aisle to vote along with Northern Democrats to pass the 1964 civil rights act, so there were apparently a few Southern Democrats who likely recognized that segregation was ultimately wrong no matter how they felt about black Americans and would eventually get removed and they were politicians who wanted to end up on the right side of history. I believe LBJ to be one of those Southern Democrats.

1964 Civil Rights Act Vote by party and region

The House of Representatives:

  • Southern Democrats: 7–87   (7–93%)
  • Southern Republicans: 0–10   (0–100%)
  • Northern Democrats: 145–9   (94–6%)
  • Northern Republicans: 138–24   (85–15%)

The Senate:

  • Southern Democrats: 1–20   (5–95%) 
  • Southern Republicans: 0–1   (0–100%)
  • Northern Democrats: 45–1   (98–2%)
  • Northern Republicans: 27–5   (84–16%)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

So there were 9 Southern Democrats including LBJ who were in favor of the 1964 civil rights act, along with 190 Northern Democrats making a total of 199 Democrats along with 165 Republicans who passed the civil rights act.

 
 
 
MonsterMash
5.3.15  MonsterMash  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.3.2    2 weeks ago

Fucking Democrats !!

 
 
 
MonsterMash
5.3.16  MonsterMash  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @5.3.14    2 weeks ago
So there were 9 Southern Democrats including LBJ who were in favor of the 1964 civil rights act

LBJ didn't have a vote

1964 Civil Rights Act Vote

DEMOCRATS VOTING:           REPUBLICANS VOTING 

198 FOR                                    165 FOR     

117 AGAINST                              39 AGAINST

63 % FOR PASSAGE                  81% FOR PASSAGE

 
 
 
MonsterMash
5.3.17  MonsterMash  replied to  MonsterMash @5.3.16    2 weeks ago

My mistake actually 40 Republicans voted against the Civil Rights Act so it was 80% of Republicans voting for the bill

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
5.3.18  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  MonsterMash @5.3.16    2 weeks ago
LBJ didn't have a vote

Did I say he did? I said "There were 9 Southern Democrats including LBJ who were in favor of the 1964 civil rights act".

LBJ signed the civil rights act into law, would that not constitute as being "in favor of"?

And yes, the vote totals show that it was the Democrats who wrote the bill, presented it for a vote and then the majority of who passed it into law.

Only those who are so desperate and weak to defend their party resort to looking at the percent even though the actual vote totals tell the true story.

By your measure what we could focus on were the 100% of Southern Republicans who voted against the civil rights act.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
5.3.19  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @5.3.9    2 weeks ago

Is every day like Groundhog Day for you?

 
 
 
Ender
6  Ender    2 weeks ago

This is the flag they were pushing for, for a couple of years. It was called the Stennis flag after the woman who designed it. Now they changed the name of it to the hospitality flag as she thought her name attached to it would be a bad connotation. Her grandfather was a segregationist.

512

I like it. 19 stars circling a middle star represents being the 20th state to join the union.

512

They are going to put several designs up for a vote.

 
 
 
Krishna
6.1  Krishna  replied to  Ender @6    2 weeks ago

I remeber there used to be a long-serving senator from Mississippi named John Stennis. (He was a strong supporter of segregation)

 
 
 
1776  Traditional American
6.1.1  1776 Traditional American  replied to  Krishna @6.1    2 weeks ago

And he has a Nuclear Aircraft Carrier named after him due to his being a patriotic hawk during the Cold War 

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
6.1.2  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Krishna @6.1    2 weeks ago

The Navy is reviewing all of it's ships names as we speak.  I think it's a 50:50 proposition she gets renamed. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
6.1.3  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @6.1.2    2 weeks ago

or mothballed and scrapped.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
6.1.4  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @6.1.3    2 weeks ago

Nah.... That birdfarm has about another 25 years of service life in her..... possibly more.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
6.1.5  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @6.1.4    2 weeks ago

maybe but look how they did the Iowa class.

and those are over 60 now.

 
 
 
Krishna
6.1.6  Krishna  replied to  1776 Traditional American @6.1.1    2 weeks ago

And he has a Nuclear Aircraft Carrier named after him due to his being a patriotic hawk during the Cold War 

Kinda like John Bolton,eh?

 
 
 
Krishna
6.1.7  Krishna  replied to  1776 Traditional American @6.1.1    2 weeks ago
And he has a Nuclear Aircraft Carrier named after him due to his being a patriotic hawk during the Cold War 

Yes-- I do remember him well!

(His nick-name was "Mad Dog Stennis"-- although most people referred to him as "Stennis the Menace"!)

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
6.1.8  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @6.1.5    2 weeks ago

We're a bit short of birdfarms vs the tasking needs these days.  The Ford class is having teething problems given the jump in technology installed to where we are deploying amphibious assault ships to meet carrier needs.  Lastly, while impressive ships, the Iowa's could not project power with the level of flexibility that a carrier battle group does. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
6.1.9  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @6.1.8    2 weeks ago

agreed the era of the battleship really did end in WW2, but they have always been a great show of naval achievement , though I like the iowas , I was particularly taken with the So Dak  class, maybe because that was the first class I actually got to set foot on as a kid on field trips ,  "Big Mamie " was impressive to my young eyes.

The issue I see coming is even with all the advancements in tech , a surface fleet still has the same vulnerabilities as they did back when carriers too supremacy in the fleet . and frankly I think the real future of the navy will remain with the Sub fleets . 

 I think it will come down to numbers lost in the event of an engagement , how many will be lost on a carrier if it goes down , vs how many on a smaller vessel that operates differently .

 don't get me wrong I understand the advantages a carrier has . it can power a city , desalinate water , has a full medical bay where surgery can be done , add the flightwing capabilities and uses and in time of peace they can be bringers of needed assistance .

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
6.1.10  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @6.1.9    2 weeks ago

The Iowa class was the pinnacle of that type of warship, so it is very hard not to appreciate their design. 

I do agree with you that the future does rest with submarines, but just as in the Cuban Missile Crisis, they still cannot control the 1.5million square mile battlespace that a carrier centered battlegroup can.  

And there is no disagreement in the increasing vulnerability of the carriers if things ever came to heavy blows.  The question becomes, who will dare to take that shot?  The layered defense of the group makes things hard to mask the point of origin of an air attack (missile or otherwise). The volume of a salvoed attack has to be substantial to overwhelm that same layered defense.  A single conventional missile with a 2000lb warhead isn't going to get it done. You would need 3-4 hits of that size to put the carrier out of commission.  And that is precisely what the escorts are designed to prevent.  

If I were a country that wanted to give us a black eye and sink one of the CVNs  I'd still do it by sub. With the fall of the USSR, I know for one that our surface and airborne ASW capability has been degraded by at least 40%, while subs keep getting quieter all the time.

Still with all those vulnerabilities, the volume of our long arm projected naval air power is something no other country can match, and a majority of our adversaries don't have a response to.

Take care Mark. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
6.1.11  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @6.1.10    2 weeks ago
The Iowa class was the pinnacle of that type of warship, so it is very hard not to appreciate their design.

I can only imagine what the proposed and fabled montana class would have looked like.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
6.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Ender @6    2 weeks ago

Looks good to me.

 
 
 
Ender
7  Ender    2 weeks ago

Our governor is an idiot. At first he said he would only put any referendum up for another vote. I guess he saw the writing on the wall.

With pressure from business and athletic departments, I guess money talks.

That piece of shit McDaniel is the rep from my district. He is still trying to appease the redneck vote that doesn't want it changed.

Polling to change the flag has actually grown to about 55%.

 
 
 
Krishna
7.1  Krishna  replied to  Ender @7    2 weeks ago
Our governor is an idiot.

You live in Mississippi?

Wow!

("Fun Fact": In the 5th grade I was the only one in my class who could spell Mississippi correctly!)

 
 
 
Ender
7.1.1  Ender  replied to  Krishna @7.1    2 weeks ago

Yeppers. Izz live down yonder.

 
 
 
Adam_Selene
7.1.2  Adam_Selene  replied to  Ender @7.1.1    2 weeks ago

Hey - say hello to my sister. She drives a red car.

 
 
 
Krishna
7.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.1    2 weeks ago
("Fun Fact": In the 5th grade I was the only one in my class who could spell Mississippi correctly!)

Although I'm still not sure how to spell...err...the spelling of that state of which Boston is the largest city.

 
 
 
Krishna
7.1.4  Krishna  replied to  Adam_Selene @7.1.2    2 weeks ago
She drives a red car.

Do people in Mississippi actually own cars?

Do they cook their food (have they invented fire yet?)

The wheel?

 
 
 
Krishna
7.1.5  Krishna  replied to  Ender @7.1.1    2 weeks ago
Yeppers. Izz live down yonder.

I remember that during the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s, there were 5 states that were generally considered the most racist. And Mississippi was considered the worst!

(Of course there was a lot of racism in other places as well-- and not all of it is in the South!)

 
 
 
Split Personality
7.1.6  Split Personality  replied to  Krishna @7.1.3    2 weeks ago

Massachusetts

an old Amerindian Algonquin word meaning "great mountain place".

 
 
 
Krishna
7.1.7  Krishna  replied to  Split Personality @7.1.6    2 weeks ago

Massachusetts

an old Amerindian Algonquin word meaning "great mountain place". 

Actually I had been thinking that Mississippi and Massachusetts both probably had somewhat similar origins-- they both sounded like Indian names to me (different tribes of course).

I think most American place names are from European languages of the early settlers-- especially English, French Spanish. In some places Norwegan, German, Dutch. Maybe some from a Slavic language

So if a name sounds somewhat unusual (and is often rather long?) its probably Indian?

 
 
 
Krishna
7.1.8  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.1.7    2 weeks ago

One summer I was in Mexico on a student exchange program. Of course there were a lot of Spanish place names, but many, many Indian names. . One of the most interesting was Tzintzuntzan. It means "place of the hummingbirds".

 
 
 
MonsterMash
7.1.9  MonsterMash  replied to  Krishna @7.1.5    2 weeks ago
I remember that during the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s, there were 5 states that were generally considered the most racist. And Mississippi was considered the worst!

While in the Air Force I was stationed at Columbus AFB in Mississippi from January 1967 until April 1968. That was a cultural shock for a white boy from Connecticut. Although the Civil Rights Act of 1964 had passed becoming law those fucking rednecks acted like they never hear of it. Everything was still segregate, the bus station, airport, movie theaters. motels, restaurants, you name it, it was segregated. The Little League wouldn't sanction teams that wouldn't let black kids play so instead of having a Little League they had what they called The Dixie League in order to keep black kids off the teams.

The local TV and radio station advertised KKK rallies and the TV station signed on and off for the day playing Dixie instead of the National Anthem.

One Saturday I went to a department store that was really busy, unable to find what I wanted I asked a black clerk for help, she said  " I'm sorry sir I'm not allowed to serve white people" jrSmiley_98_smiley_image.gif

Yup, Mississippi was the most racist state I've ever been in.

 
 
 
Ender
7.1.10  Ender  replied to  Adam_Selene @7.1.2    2 weeks ago

Musta been that car I keep seeing being pulled over by the popo.

They think red is fast.

 
 
 
Ender
7.1.11  Ender  replied to  Krishna @7.1.7    2 weeks ago

Mississippi is Indian. A lot of the state has Indian names. Biloxi, Pascagoula, the Tchoutacbouffa River, etc.

 
 
 
Ender
7.1.12  Ender  replied to  Krishna @7.1.5    2 weeks ago
there was a lot of racism in other places as well

When I lived in Maryland, one town had a large klan presence. It was a town called Gamber.

Where I lived was still separated. There was basically a black section and a white section. Churches were separate too. The black church was by the high school. Instead of going to one of our churches, I use to sit outside of their church and listen.

That was about 25 years ago though. I went to high school in Eldersburg. I though it was odd that the high school in the show 13 reasons why was called Liberty High. That was the name of my high school. Except we had a lion mascot instead of a tiger.

 
 
 
Adam_Selene
7.1.13  Adam_Selene  replied to  Krishna @7.1.4    2 weeks ago

Yes to all. They are really pretty nice but they thought I talked funny.

.

 
 
 
Adam_Selene
7.1.14  Adam_Selene  replied to  Ender @7.1.10    2 weeks ago

Well, she probably was speeding.

 
 
 
Kavika
8  Kavika     2 weeks ago

About damn time.

 
 
 
Split Personality
9  Split Personality    2 weeks ago

Arkansas could be next.  Their post Civil War flag only had 3 blue stars in the middle, under the word Arkansas,

representing France, Spain & the USA. Eventually they added a forth star above the 'arkansas' to represent the CSA.

https://www.thv11.com/article/news/history/theres-a-nod-to-the-confederacy-on-the-arkansas-state-flag/91-918fea08-a14f-4262-919b-54668d707387

 
 
 
loki12
9.1  loki12  replied to  Split Personality @9    2 weeks ago

Yep, another scumbag racist confirmed it into law in 1987.

The 1924 design was confirmed as law in 1987 by Act 116, signed by Governor Bill Clinton . [3]

 
 
 
MonsterMash
9.1.1  MonsterMash  replied to  loki12 @9.1    2 weeks ago
The 1924 design was confirmed as law in 1987 by Act 116, signed by Governor Bill Clinton . [3]

Billy needed the KKK vote

 
 
 
loki12
9.1.2  loki12  replied to  MonsterMash @9.1.1    2 weeks ago

Billy is the KKK. Who else would celebrate by merging Robert E Lee with the newly created Martin Luther King Holiday? I mean besides George Wallace.

 
 
 
Krishna
9.2  Krishna  replied to  Split Personality @9    2 weeks ago
representing France, Spain & the USA. Eventually they added a forth star above the 'arkansas' to represent the CSA

Three foreign countries-- I'm sure the Conservatives aren't too happy about that!

OTOH the pregressives certainly aren't to happy about the CSA being represented.

Finally, something the two sides can agree upon (that  replacing that damn flag is long overdue :-)

 
 
 
loki12
9.2.1  loki12  replied to  Krishna @9.2    2 weeks ago

They aren't replacing the Arkansas flag, they are only going to change Bill Clintons official designation of the 4th star.

 
 
 
Split Personality
10  Split Personality    2 weeks ago

What next?  6 Flags Entertainment?

320

 
 
 
Krishna
10.1  Krishna  replied to  Split Personality @10    2 weeks ago

I don't recognize the two on the left (the one with the black dots and the red one with 4 "boxes") what do they represent.

Could the one with all those tiny dots be, maybe...the flag of Micronesia? 

 
 
 
Split Personality
10.1.1  Split Personality  replied to  Krishna @10.1    2 weeks ago

Spain, France, the United States, the Republic of Texas,

and the Confederate States of America,

and Mexico.

Not in that order...

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
11  Thrawn 31    2 weeks ago

Good. It is a symbol of treason and America's original sin of slavery. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
11.1  Greg Jones  replied to  Thrawn 31 @11    2 weeks ago

Why do you consider it treason?

 
 
 
JBB
11.1.1  JBB  replied to  Greg Jones @11.1    2 weeks ago

Because the damn Confederacy took up arm against their own countrymen in defense of human bondage...

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
11.1.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Greg Jones @11.1    2 weeks ago

Am I being punked?

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
11.1.3  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Thrawn 31 @11.1.2    2 weeks ago

it looks like it. how the hell can people not realize going to war against America, the United States of, in order to Divide this country is not an act of treason....?

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
11.1.4  Thrawn 31  replied to  igknorantzrulz @11.1.3    2 weeks ago

I mean, is that till a thing?

I just cannot believe someone is as stupid as Greg is pretending to be.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
11.1.5  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  JBB @11.1.1    2 weeks ago

I doubt you would have found a confederate that counted a unionist as their countrymen , so they didn't raise arms against countrymen to their mind . 

 As for if the confederacy was actually its own separate nation or simply states in rebellion forming their own revolution to break away like many of their parents and grandparents had done to GB , that is debatable .

they simply exersized an open question, of could a state vote to leave the union if it chose to . that question was answered AFTER the conflict had been done and over with.

Treason only applies IF war was declared before the vote to secede was cast, but because the union won , and did not recognize the right of the confederacy to break away , well the winners always write the history ,

But I point out a citizen of the confederacy not in the employ of the Confederate military or government caught in a union state would not have been granted the rights of a US citizen at the time of the conflict.

It cant be had as both ways , either they were merely states in rebellion and were still US citizens and entitled to all the rights due citizens , OR, they were citizens of the confederacy that voted to leave the union and were no longer US citizens , and if they were no longer citizens , they could not commit treason and be traitors .

 And that is all a moot point anyway since most confederates got a presidential pardon on application , a few did not ever apply and died without enjoying the rights of other US Citizen.

 
 
 
Krishna
11.1.6  Krishna  replied to  Greg Jones @11.1    2 weeks ago
Why do you consider it treason?

Former American citizens making war on the U.S.A.?

Having a army who sole purpose was to fight the United States of America's army...and to kill as many American soldiers as possible?

WTF-- sounds like Treason to me.

(But then again-- you already knew that)

 
 
 
Krishna
11.1.7  Krishna  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @11.1.5    2 weeks ago
I doubt you would have found a confederate that counted a unionist as their countrymen , so they didn't raise arms against countrymen to their mind . 

That sound correct. 

But not treason "in their mind"?

IIRC, in the law, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

So my guess is that since they did something illegal (leave the Union) under American law they were still legally American citizens...citizens who took up arms against the USA, which means they created treason.

 
 
 
Krishna
11.1.8  Krishna  replied to  Thrawn 31 @11.1.4    2 weeks ago
I just cannot believe someone is as stupid as Greg is pretending to be.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Social Media!

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
11.1.9  Mark in Wyoming  replied to  Krishna @11.1.7    2 weeks ago
So my guess is that since they did something illegal (leave the Union) under American law they were still legally American citizens..

Unfortunately it was not made illegal until AFTER the conflict was concluded, it was still a very much open question that had not seriously been tested , AND it was made illegal by those that declared they could not separate , and won the physical war.

 to me that is like me going out to shoot a deer for sustenance with no set season in place for hunting , and you coming along and getting enough support to make a deer season passed  thus making what I did illegal.and claiming I broke the law when I shot the deer. the law didn't exist when I did it.

 I agree , any attempt today is in fact illegal because of laws enacted after the civil war was concluded, But that does not preclude that at some time in the future , laws cannot be written that would institute a process for any state to leave the union , legally and peacefully. on the federal level.

 
 
 
Texan1211
12  Texan1211    2 weeks ago

How long before the usual suspects start complaining about the words on the flag?

 
 
 
Ender
12.1  Ender  replied to  Texan1211 @12    2 weeks ago

Funny, that was added in 2014. I guess they didn't care about preserving history on the seal.

 
 
 
Texan1211
12.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @12.1    2 weeks ago

You may be okay with those words, but trust me when I tell you there are plenty of folks who will be upset about it once they figure out the words are there.

 
 
 
Krishna
12.2  Krishna  replied to  Texan1211 @12    2 weeks ago
usual suspects

"The Usual Suspects"???

Is that an album..or a group?

 
 
 
Texan1211
12.2.1  Texan1211  replied to  Krishna @12.2    2 weeks ago

group

 
 
 
Adam_Selene
13  Adam_Selene    2 weeks ago

If, after the voters weigh in, they still cannot agree on a flag for the state -  there is always this one:

?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimage.freepik.com%2Ffree-vector%2Fblank-white-flag-waving-blue-sky-background_1284-5466.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

Source

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
13.1  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Adam_Selene @13    2 weeks ago

is that a sheet of two ply ?

 
 
 
Adam_Selene
13.1.1  Adam_Selene  replied to  igknorantzrulz @13.1    2 weeks ago

LMAO jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
13.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Adam_Selene @13    2 weeks ago

The only appropriate monument to the confederacy. 

 
 
 
Krishna
13.3  Krishna  replied to  Adam_Selene @13    2 weeks ago

But that's obviously a "White Power" flag.

 
 
 
Adam_Selene
13.3.1  Adam_Selene  replied to  Krishna @13.3    2 weeks ago

No but it is made of cotton.

 
 
 
Krishna
13.3.2  Krishna  replied to  Adam_Selene @13.3.1    2 weeks ago

Of course I was joking...a feeble attempt at humor.

 
 
 
Adam_Selene
13.3.3  Adam_Selene  replied to  Krishna @13.3.2    2 weeks ago

Any humor, feeble or otherwise is appreciated.

 
 
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