Yeah, well, the bible is subject to interpretation, and I interpret it a bit differently.
I've had this argument before, granted, not with you. I don't look at the bible literally, but as a whole, and pay more attention to the New Testament than the Old Testament, and see it more as an allegory, (spelling?), than absolute fact. I have no doubt that it is a historical document, but also feel that it should be placed in the context of its times.
Times have changed.
I know you're an atheist and you know that I believe in God, so let's just leave it at that, ok? I love you and have no wish to argue with you-- nor do I think you're wrong, we just believe differently. I'm more of a live and let live kind of person...
As Mrs. E. and I got to know one another during our courtship (seems a million years ago) I found her to be the perfect woman for me.
She is my life partner. My equal. The love and light of my life.
She is a great wife, mother and grandmother.
She dedicated years of her life to our Congregations, service to community, helping others, and working particularly for the developmentally disabled. Upon her retirement last year. her colleagues, and many of the people she helped were in tears because they would not see her every weekday (except holidays).
Please read Proverbs 31. I read it to her every incoming Sabbath Eve as a blessing when I came home from Services. She personifies a Woman of Valor to me.
"Many daughters have valiantly, but you (she) excel them all".
She is and remains a great blessing in my life, and the life of all who graces with her virtues.
Peace, Abundant Blessings, and Warm Blankets (for a while yet).
Sorry Flame, but there are plenty of words in every human language to describe the "perfection" you are alluding to. "God" is the least sensible one, IMO, since virtually the entire religious world attaches much, much more significant attributes to the God concept than that.
To say that religions are a means to reaching perfection, and then broaden the scope of who is seeking to reach perfection to everyone, atheists included, is just another way of saying that atheism itself is a religion - which I would never agree with ... like not even in a million years. Seeking perfection is normal and natural. Seeking a personal relationship with the evidence-less thing that you think created existence many billions of years ago (or 6,000 years ago if you're a creationist whack job), is something entirely different. That is a central tenet of all religions, and is also what differentiates it from Deism.
I find the prospect of seeking perfection to be wholly unrelated to religion. Let's face it, there is hardly a human alive that could achieve perfection in biblical standards. And why on earth are many of those standards even be related to a practical definition of perfection? How can a slave owner ever be considered perfect, regardless of how he treats his slaves? Why would perfection involve not eating some particular animal? There are those fanatical religionists who even try to reach biblical perfection by altering their lifestyle and routines in order to not do physical labor on a Sunday, but it takes physical labor just to breathe, get out of bed, take a poop, etc. Perfection in biblical terms is the epitome of ridiculousness.
I cannot speak for other faiths, but in Judaism we do not seek perfection, only to strive daily to improve ourselves as human beings. The large lesson we draw upon is contained in the story of Creation. Upon observing the daily handy work, G-d merely observed that "it was good". One day "it was very good". The world, according to the Bible, was not even created perfectly - only "good" or "very good".
As far as the commandments you draw upon, Judaism no longer allows slavery. And as far a dietary laws are concerned, there are people who create their own dietary laws as they see fit. There are people who treat juicing like it's part of some faith. People cannot begin their day without a cup of pressed coffee. Do Jews bother you by what they eat any more than the juicers or the crazy coffee people? If you ask me, that's in the "live and let live" category. As far as shutting down one day a week, all I can tell you is "Do it. You'll never regret it". And again, it's personal choice that doesn't impinge on anyone else's existence.
None of this goes towards perfection. It's all about a state of being, and striving to be better. Perfection is impossible.
"And as far a dietary laws are concerned, there are people who create their own dietary laws as they see fit."You don't see a distinction between a health nut and a religious nut? There is speculation that prior to perfecting the art of food preservation, pork was considered to be "unclean" because it was particularly susceptible to Trichinosis. By declaring it unclean through religious doctrine, this malady was kept at bay among the masses. We're way beyond that danger in the modern world, but the inflexible religious doctrines of old are dictating the diets of their adherents for religious reasons, even though those reasons were likely driven by practical knowledge that is now hopelessly obsolete. You want to exclude pork from your diet, fine - more bacon for me - but realize how senseless your decision is.
Is it any more or less senseless than people who won't eat unbleached flour? What about alcohol? And those people go telling anyone that will listen their entire list of taboo foods. I adhere to my faith's dietary laws. Do I go around telling the whole fucking world that I do that? No. I do it because that's what I believe. I'm not imposing my beliefs on anyone, and I'm not uncomfortable with my belief, and I have the right to do that.
Is senseless subjective? Really? If I told you that I don't eat spinach because The Flying Spaghetti Monster forbids it, you can imagine that there are people who would find that a sensible rationale for personal dietary restriction? Why would that be any different than your refusal to eat pork? Like I said, I don't personally care if anyone refuses to eat anything, but I reserve my right to identify a senseless notion when I see one. At least the person who shuns bleached flour has a sensible reason for doing so.
When people use the word "religiously" in contexts that have nothing to do with gods, they are only using a synonym for "dedicated". An atheist who practices a piano religiously is still an atheist. Seeking perfection, or just plain old improvement, is not a religious venture. I don't like how you are entangling the two concepts. Such entanglements only serve to strengthen the Dominionist, or otherwise religious agendas.
How many people won't eat certain things due to a host of inconclusive medical evidence? And how many of these bits of evidence turn out to be nothing more than speculation? The SCIENCE of nutrition is constantly evolving. There are things that people used to BELIEVE (IN) about food and nutrition that have been refuted. There are things that people BELIEVE (IN) TODAY about nutrition that will eventually be proven wrong.
Most important point, Hal:
There is no movement, local or global, on the part of practicing Jews to get anyone to follow our dietary laws. We are not harming ourselves or robbing ourselves of critical nutrient. I don't know why you care so much about this, other than to stand on it as a platform to mock. It's my choice to eat what I want, and I'm not shouting my practice to the world, nor is the rest of the Jewish community. We are literally minding our own business.
How many more times should I repeat that I DON'T CARE IF ANYONE REFUSES TO EAT ANYTHING? Just as you would most certainly mock my doctrine based refusal to eat spinach, as you should, I will mock your doctrine based refusal to eat pork. It's the same goddamn thing. Trust me when I say that I won't lose sleep over your laughable dietary restrictions.As far as dietary SCIENCE goes, it has a purpose, and that purpose is to keep you healthy based on the latest EVIDENCE. When those recommendations leave the realm of science and land in the world of religion, as pork appears to have done, there is no longer any opportunity to adjust the recommendations based on evolving evidence. That is SENSELESS. If the latest research concluded that chicken will give you cancer unless it is soaked in milk first, you would opt for the cancer rather than disobey your doctrine.
I am often confused by your hard core athisim. I don't personally care what someone does with their belief system, so long as they don't bother me with it. The moment they do, then I have a problem.
Only if it bothers you personally? What if it tries to impact a public school system? What if it takes the life of children with treatable medical conditions, because the parents tried to pray the problems away instead? What if it cons money out of vulnerable widows, who live on menial fixed incomes? What if it cancels funerals at the last minute, because the deceased was outed as gay or was not current on their church contributions? I got a million more what ifs that drive my atheism - like the seeded video.
That is just what I mean-- each person has a different view of "the perfect woman" for themselves. And, in looking for perfection, men just may miss someone who would turn out to be the perfect woman for them...
I do not mean to denigrate their beliefs-- there are women who want this, too. But it isn't for me.
Suspect he will have considered throwing out the old stinky couch and getting a new modern good looking one that makes the master look better. Ok its off but then there is that new book. I need to buy it and see what nonsense he babbles about. I fear for the world that demands the doctrine of ages ago to guide the human beings of today. Drinkingwine or grape juice as blood in a ritual is quite primitive. Rituals are used in many religions as well as gangs and terrorists to increase cohesion of the members. It's why the religions change and the Pope can change the bible. If you lived in the way of your ancient ancestors and their beliefs you would not fit in anywhere. Some religions actually drank blood maybe some still might.
The perfect man or perfect woman does not exist. Human DNA has changed over time and will continue to change as time goes on. A woman who always agrees with what her mate says is a liar and there fore imperfect. Guess most of you have found (Stepford) perfect wives. I did not want noramI married to a yes master wife nor would I want to be. We are an integral part of each others lives and share common goals.
Hal, I agree with you again! That's scarry. When we subject our beliefs by use of law or force we become the one in the wrong. Freedom of religion means just that but also it means freedom from religion if you so desire.That lack of flexibility is why the Middle East has been fighting for centuries. Its why many of our ancestors left Europe and many other Areas of our shrinking world.
Well, that explains a lot.
I'm 10 out of 10-- although I'm not a child-hater, I definitely waited to have my child...
Piffle. Makes me want to take a baseball bat to him/them!!!
Yeah, well, the bible is subject to interpretation, and I interpret it a bit differently.
I've had this argument before, granted, not with you. I don't look at the bible literally, but as a whole, and pay more attention to the New Testament than the Old Testament, and see it more as an allegory, (spelling?), than absolute fact. I have no doubt that it is a historical document, but also feel that it should be placed in the context of its times.
Times have changed.
I know you're an atheist and you know that I believe in God, so let's just leave it at that, ok? I love you and have no wish to argue with you-- nor do I think you're wrong, we just believe differently. I'm more of a live and let live kind of person...
Dear Friend Dowser: To each their own.
As Mrs. E. and I got to know one another during our courtship (seems a million years ago) I found her to be the perfect woman for me.
She is my life partner. My equal. The love and light of my life.
She is a great wife, mother and grandmother.
She dedicated years of her life to our Congregations, service to community, helping others, and working particularly for the developmentally disabled. Upon her retirement last year. her colleagues, and many of the people she helped were in tears because they would not see her every weekday (except holidays).
Please read Proverbs 31. I read it to her every incoming Sabbath Eve as a blessing when I came home from Services. She personifies a Woman of Valor to me.
"Many daughters have valiantly, but you (she) excel them all".
She is and remains a great blessing in my life, and the life of all who graces with her virtues.
Peace, Abundant Blessings, and Warm Blankets (for a while yet).
Enoch.
I find the prospect of seeking perfection to be wholly unrelated to religion. Let's face it, there is hardly a human alive that could achieve perfection in biblical standards. And why on earth are many of those standards even be related to a practical definition of perfection? How can a slave owner ever be considered perfect, regardless of how he treats his slaves? Why would perfection involve not eating some particular animal? There are those fanatical religionists who even try to reach biblical perfection by altering their lifestyle and routines in order to not do physical labor on a Sunday, but it takes physical labor just to breathe, get out of bed, take a poop, etc. Perfection in biblical terms is the epitome of ridiculousness.
Hey Hal,
I cannot speak for other faiths, but in Judaism we do not seek perfection, only to strive daily to improve ourselves as human beings. The large lesson we draw upon is contained in the story of Creation. Upon observing the daily handy work, G-d merely observed that "it was good". One day "it was very good". The world, according to the Bible, was not even created perfectly - only "good" or "very good".
As far as the commandments you draw upon, Judaism no longer allows slavery. And as far a dietary laws are concerned, there are people who create their own dietary laws as they see fit. There are people who treat juicing like it's part of some faith. People cannot begin their day without a cup of pressed coffee. Do Jews bother you by what they eat any more than the juicers or the crazy coffee people? If you ask me, that's in the "live and let live" category. As far as shutting down one day a week, all I can tell you is "Do it. You'll never regret it". And again, it's personal choice that doesn't impinge on anyone else's existence.
None of this goes towards perfection. It's all about a state of being, and striving to be better. Perfection is impossible.
Is it any more or less senseless than people who won't eat unbleached flour? What about alcohol? And those people go telling anyone that will listen their entire list of taboo foods. I adhere to my faith's dietary laws. Do I go around telling the whole fucking world that I do that? No. I do it because that's what I believe. I'm not imposing my beliefs on anyone, and I'm not uncomfortable with my belief, and I have the right to do that.
Senseless is very subjective.
Very.
How many people won't eat certain things due to a host of inconclusive medical evidence? And how many of these bits of evidence turn out to be nothing more than speculation? The SCIENCE of nutrition is constantly evolving. There are things that people used to BELIEVE (IN) about food and nutrition that have been refuted. There are things that people BELIEVE (IN) TODAY about nutrition that will eventually be proven wrong.
Most important point, Hal:
There is no movement, local or global, on the part of practicing Jews to get anyone to follow our dietary laws. We are not harming ourselves or robbing ourselves of critical nutrient. I don't know why you care so much about this, other than to stand on it as a platform to mock. It's my choice to eat what I want, and I'm not shouting my practice to the world, nor is the rest of the Jewish community. We are literally minding our own business.
Enoch,
That post brings such joy to my heart. What a beautiful post.
Hal,
I am often confused by your hard core athisim. I don't personally care what someone does with their belief system, so long as they don't bother me with it. The moment they do, then I have a problem.
To me that makes sense to me.
Pastor Kim newest book is entitled, ''Women as Furniture''...
You go Rev.
That is just what I mean-- each person has a different view of "the perfect woman" for themselves. And, in looking for perfection, men just may miss someone who would turn out to be the perfect woman for them...
I do not mean to denigrate their beliefs-- there are women who want this, too. But it isn't for me.
Love you, dear Enoch!
Suspect he will have considered throwing out the old stinky couch and getting a new modern good looking one that makes the master look better. Ok its off but then there is that new book. I need to buy it and see what nonsense he babbles about. I fear for the world that demands the doctrine of ages ago to guide the human beings of today. Drinkingwine or grape juice as blood in a ritual is quite primitive. Rituals are used in many religions as well as gangs and terrorists to increase cohesion of the members. It's why the religions change and the Pope can change the bible. If you lived in the way of your ancient ancestors and their beliefs you would not fit in anywhere. Some religions actually drank blood maybe some still might.
The perfect man or perfect woman does not exist. Human DNA has changed over time and will continue to change as time goes on. A woman who always agrees with what her mate says is a liar and there fore imperfect. Guess most of you have found (Stepford) perfect wives. I did not want noramI married to a yes master wife nor would I want to be. We are an integral part of each others lives and share common goals.
Hal, I agree with you again! That's scarry. When we subject our beliefs by use of law or force we become the one in the wrong. Freedom of religion means just that but also it means freedom from religion if you so desire.That lack of flexibility is why the Middle East has been fighting for centuries. Its why many of our ancestors left Europe and many other Areas of our shrinking world.