Hate, Ignorance and Sacagawea

  

Category:  News & Politics

By:  vic-eldred  •  3 weeks ago  •  214 comments

Hate, Ignorance and Sacagawea
"I feel that it should just be melted down," Rose Ann Abrahamson, a Sacagawea descendant, said during the council meeting, The Daily Progress reported. "I feel that it’s entirely offensive and it should be obliterated."

A strange thing happened this past weekend as the city of Charlottesville, Virginia was quietly removing two Confederate statues. That would be the quick as lightning calling of an emergency meeting - called with 20 minutes’ notice, by the Charlottesville City Council, which voted unanimously to remove another piece of public art targeted by left-wing thugs. Maybe it was enough that a Sacagawea descendant felt offended and thus the excuse needed to get it done before there could be a discussion by Virginia voters. 

The two Confederate statues removed were of legendary General's Robert E Lee and "Stonewall" Jackson, both native Virginians. The extra was a monumental tribute to explorers Meriwether Lewis, William Clark and Sacagawea. Lewis was sent by President Thomas Jefferson to explore the land west of the Mississippi River in 1804 and was a local hero who was born in Charlottesville’s Albemarle County. The left's complaint was that Sacagawea, who appears in a crouching position behind the standing "White" men is "disparaging." For normal human beings who were taught the most basic history course, Sacagawea’s posture is related to her stock in trade. She was a tracker and guide. Lewis and Clark could not have achieved what they did without her extraordinary skills. As usual the radicals don't know or care about American history.



A local observer was stunned by the speed at which the statue was removed. Molly Conger documented the process on Twitter:

"Getting right down to business, not even taking the cherry picker off the truck," Conger wrote on Twitter.




The Charlottesville City Council:

Hill, Heather Council Member Email Heather Hill  
Magill, Sena Vice Mayor Email Sena Magill  
Payne, Michael Council Member Email Michael Payne  
Snook, Lloyd Council Member Email Lloyd Snook  
Walker, Nikuyah Mayor/Council Member

 

Why didn't the people of Virginia have a say?


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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  author  Vic Eldred    3 weeks ago

As many of us know, this was never just about Confederate statues.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.1  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    3 weeks ago

Then what is it about?

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
1.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  Gordy327 @1.1    3 weeks ago

Trying to erase white males from history. The good, bad, or otherwise.

The left will literally take offense at anything these days; and their appeasers will grant them instant gratification. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.1    3 weeks ago

That's quite the imagination you have. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @1.1    3 weeks ago

Well, let's see, they just removed an explorers monument, ripped down an abolitionist statue and even attacked a Lincoln statue.They tried to seal and burn down a police station with people in it as well as a year of rioting. I'd say it is hatred of America.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.4  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @1.1.2    3 weeks ago

It's our imagination/s

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.1.5  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.3    3 weeks ago

Except the article pertains to specific Confederate statues. So don't try to deflect from that. Or are you defending keeping statues of Confederate war heroes standing?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.1.6  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.4    3 weeks ago

Yes.

 
 
 
devangelical
PhD Principal
1.2  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    3 weeks ago

I'm in favor of letting NA's decide their own issues, but get those statues glorifying confederate traitors off public property and start renaming military bases after real american heroes, instead of white supremacist trash that waged war against the US and our Constitution that rightfully belong in an unmarked landfill. we've waited long enough for the truth of hypocritical race theory to be exposed.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.1  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  devangelical @1.2    3 weeks ago

Lewis and Clark were not Confederate soldiers.

 
 
 
devangelical
PhD Principal
1.2.2  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.1    3 weeks ago

I know, it would take the south decades of inbreeding to create those.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @1    3 weeks ago

The decision was made in 2019 to remove the statue and it will be replaced with one of Sacagawea in a different posture. The current one will be moved to the Lewis and Clark Museum. 

Many native tribes wanted it removed for obvious reasons, which you will never understand it seems. That would include the Fort Hall Indian nation in Idaho, her birthplace, and her tribe along with the other descendants in ND. 

The people she represents and her relatives/ancestors have a lot more say in this than a whiney group of pissants.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
1.3.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Kavika @1.3    3 weeks ago

Well then it seems like an amicable solution was found. As I said, I don’t have a strong opinion on that statue but I have no doubt our native friends feel some kinda way about it, and understandably so.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.3.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @1.3    3 weeks ago
The current one will be moved to the Lewis and Clark Museum. 

May we see that?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1.4  XXJefferson51  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    3 weeks ago

It’s about tearing down all of American history and culture 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.4.1  JohnRussell  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.4    3 weeks ago

It would be nice if you knew anything about American history , so we could discuss it, but alas.....

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.4.2  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.4    3 weeks ago

So you oppose tearing down Confederate statues?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
1.4.3  charger 383  replied to  Gordy327 @1.4.2    3 weeks ago

I am

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.4.4  Gordy327  replied to  charger 383 @1.4.3    3 weeks ago

Why?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
1.4.5  charger 383  replied to  Gordy327 @1.4.4    3 weeks ago

First, I like it

2 It has been there a long time and was an impressive statue 

3 People raised funds to put it up and it is a part of Virginia history

3 General Robert E. Lee was a great Virginian, at the time your state was more important to you than the other states and he turned down command of the northern army rather than fight against Virginia. 

4 after the war Robert E. Lee was very respected

and I have to put up with things I don't like so just because some don't like the statues does not mean they should be taken down

and I am tired of this renaming of things some do not like the names of 

 
 
 
devangelical
PhD Principal
1.4.6  devangelical  replied to  charger 383 @1.4.5    3 weeks ago
after the war Robert E. Lee was very respected

those statues were erected after he was dead, because he never would have supported them.

 
 
 
Freedom Warrior
Professor Guide
1.4.7  Freedom Warrior  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.4    3 weeks ago

If they continue with this it’s going to end very bloody

 
 
 
Freedom Warrior
Professor Guide
1.4.8  Freedom Warrior  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.4    3 weeks ago

If they continue with this it’s going to end very bloody

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.4.9  JBB  replied to  Freedom Warrior @1.4.7    3 weeks ago

It already did January 6th, and your side lost!

 
 
 
FortunateSon
Freshman Silent
1.4.10  FortunateSon  replied to  JBB @1.4.9    3 weeks ago

LOL 

Stealing an election is not called winning.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.4.11  Gordy327  replied to  charger 383 @1.4.5    2 weeks ago
First, I like it

Ok, and? Some clearly don't like it.

 It has been there a long time

How much time is required before something goes from recent to "a long time?"

and was an impressive statue 

See first statement. As the saying goes, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

People raised funds to put it up and it is a part of Virginia history

It can still be put up in a museum for people to see.

 at the time your state was more important to you than the other states

It was that kind of mentality that fanned the flames for the Civil War.

and he turned down command of the northern army rather than fight against Virginia. 

In other words, he turned traitor and fought against his country.

after the war Robert E. Lee was very respected

So? There were many enemy commanders that were respected in our history. But they were still the enemy. We don't have statues honoring them. We do have statues honoring those who fought against them.

and I have to put up with things I don't like so just because some don't like the statues does not mean they should be taken down

Whether a statues goes up or down is up for a governing body to decide.

and I am tired of this renaming of things some do not like the names of 

That's not really the issue here.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.4.12  Gordy327  replied to  FortunateSon @1.4.10    2 weeks ago
Stealing an election is not called winning.

Except the election was never stolen. 

 
 
 
FortunateSon
Freshman Silent
1.4.13  FortunateSon  replied to  Gordy327 @1.4.12    2 weeks ago
Except the election was never stolen. 

Prove it.

Truth is neither side can prove either of our assertions without actually auditing the results.

Thankfully, many states are currently running audits to find out.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.4.14  Gordy327  replied to  FortunateSon @1.4.13    2 weeks ago

The onus of proof lies on the side claiming the election was stolen. 9 months after the election, there has never been any evidence, much less proof that the election was "stolen," or produced results that would have any significant impact on the outcome. The states called and affirmed the election results. Multiple recounts, audits, and lawsuits have been performed, with most being dismissed. At this point, it's just plain delusional to continue to believe Trump won or that the election was stolen.

 
 
 
FortunateSon
Freshman Silent
1.4.15  FortunateSon  replied to  Gordy327 @1.4.14    2 weeks ago

Seems your info is out of date.

Among other issues In az over 70 thousand more mail ballots received and counted than were mailed out. They all have the wrong paper and watermarks.

Joe stole/won the state by around 11 000 votes

You can do the math

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.4.16  JBB  replied to  FortunateSon @1.4.15    2 weeks ago

If that were true it should be easy to prove...

We will now wait impatiently for you to do so.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
1.4.17  Gordy327  replied to  FortunateSon @1.4.15    2 weeks ago
Seems your info is out of date.

So far, not one state has turned around and said Trump actually won instead of Biden. Not that actually doing so would have any impact on the final outcome of the election. One would think that after 9 (and counting) months, any fraud or errors would have been put forth, especially if it had some significant impact on the election.

Joe stole/won the state by around 11 000 votes

Which state? And if the results were different, would it have had any impact on the election results?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Guide
2  Sean Treacy    3 weeks ago

The left’s vision for America realigned from  Martin Luther King to rev. Jeremiah Wright.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
2.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    3 weeks ago

Traitors don’t deserve statues. As for the Lewis and Clarke one, well I have a much less strong opinion on that one.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Masters Expert
2.2  Greg Jones  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    3 weeks ago

Since the states of the Confederacy had seceded from the Union, how can all the soldiers be considered as traitors? Dems label and name call with abandon and without thinking

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Greg Jones @2.2    3 weeks ago

The preponderance of scholarly opinion is that secession is unconstitutional. The only way for a state to leave the union would be with the approval of a majority of the other states. 

If it was a war between two legitimate nations it wouldnt have been a Civil War, would it? 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
2.2.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Greg Jones @2.2    3 weeks ago

Because they took up arms against their government. John covers it pretty well.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
2.2.3  Gordy327  replied to  Greg Jones @2.2    3 weeks ago

Confederate soldiers were originally American citizens who knowingly and unconstitutionally seceded from the Union, and subsequently took up arms against the Union. At the very least, they became enemy combatants. So why should enemy combatants and/or traitors be honored with statues?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.4  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @2.2.3    3 weeks ago
So why should enemy combatants and/or traitors be honored with statues?

Why would citizenship be reinstated?

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
2.2.5  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.4    3 weeks ago

Ask the politicians of the day.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    3 weeks ago

They took issue with judging people on the content of their character. They hate that idea.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.4  XXJefferson51  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    3 weeks ago

Just like the American Flag and the 4th of July, the left is going to cede MLK Jr. and his dream to the right.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3  JohnRussell    3 weeks ago

Vic, the decision to remove the Lewis and Clark statue was begun two years ago. I assume you did a tad of research and learned that relevant fact.  It was not an out of the blue decision. It was done on Saturday because the equipment was readily available due to the Lee removal taking less time than expected. 

That is the explanation by the city. Why dont you send them an indignant letter if you want to dispute them?

Its sad to see such a noble institution as the Republican Party reduced to daily crying and whining. What would Abraham Lincoln think ? 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
3.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @3    3 weeks ago
That is the explanation by the city

Of course it is........................

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @3    3 weeks ago
Vic, the decision to remove the Lewis and Clark statue was begun two years ago.

Was the vote count?


That is the explanation by the city. 

You mean the city council?  When did Virginia vote?


What would Abraham Lincoln think ? 

I assume he'd be outraged at seeing his statue removed!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4  JohnRussell    3 weeks ago

I have a question , since Sacagawea was their guide, why isnt she out in front of Lewis and Clark on the statue? That position on the statue would have been "related to her stock in trade", the position she is depicted in appears to be one of needing protection by the men.  

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
4.1  Ender  replied to  JohnRussell @4    3 weeks ago

That was my thought as well. If she was scouting the way, wouldn't she be up front?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
4.1.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ender @4.1    3 weeks ago

Looks to me as though she is crouching down looking at something forward of their position on the ground if you look at her head angle and the fact she is holding her hair. And it isn't, IMO, a statue of them "in motion" anyway.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.1    3 weeks ago
Looks to me as though she is crouching down looking at something forward of their position on the ground if you look at her head angle and the fact she is holding her hair.

LOL. At least you are determined. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
4.1.3  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.2    3 weeks ago

Unlike some, I consider myself a glass half full type.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
4.1.4  Thrawn 31  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.1    3 weeks ago

They could have made her a little more animated. I wonder if recasting the statue is an option.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1.5  Kavika   replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.1    3 weeks ago

The statue depicts Lewis and Clark seeing the Pacific for the first time and Sacagawea crouching down behind him.   [removed]

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
4.1.6  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Kavika @4.1.5    3 weeks ago

Look again. To the side and slightly behind him. She is still looking at the ground

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1.7  Kavika   replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.6    3 weeks ago

When anyone with any sense would know that she would be looking at the pacific..

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.8  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.6    3 weeks ago

That is obvious. She was portrayed as a scout!  The original sculpture had no idea of what we would be dealing with in 2021.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.9  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.8    3 weeks ago

In 1921 it was taken for granted that people of color were and would continue to be subservient to whites.  That is the implication of the statue that you are blind to. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
4.1.10  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.9    3 weeks ago

You can't possibly know that was the intent. FFS John

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.11  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.9    3 weeks ago

Evidently, that's what you were taught. I was never taught that. 

You should have taken that up with whoever taught you that. You could have quoted MLK:

“I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”

Something to think about, John.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.1.12  XXJefferson51  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.8    3 weeks ago

He wasn’t insane like those who took down the statue or advocated for that are. 

 
 
 
bugsy
PhD Guide
4.1.13  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.9    3 weeks ago
subservient to whites

to white liberals.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2  Kavika   replied to  JohnRussell @4    3 weeks ago

The sculpture shows Sacagawea — who was key to Lewis and Clark’s expedition through the American West — crouching timidly at the two Virginia explorers’ feet, an image many  Native American groups   found offensive .

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.2.1  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @4.2    3 weeks ago

Oh, people found it offensive!

I'm offended by Black Lives Matter being plastered all over a main street in DC!  And btw there is no perception as to it's meaning.

Where is the mob that will blow torch it or a city council of ideologues who will remove it?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
4.2.2  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.2.1    3 weeks ago

If you're offended, you can bring it up before the city council, just like anyone else. And just like how the statues in the article were also removed. See how the process works?

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
4.2.3  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.2.1    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.4  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @4.2.1    3 weeks ago

Native people and her ancestors, those people which have a hell of a lot more to say about it than some bozo's we see whining about it. 

BLM, LOL another strawman.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.2.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @4.2.2    3 weeks ago
If you're offended, you can bring it up before the city council,

Who the fuck are they?

All I see if a bunch of hate-filled ideologues who should be recalled. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
4.2.6  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.2.5    3 weeks ago

"They" being a city council. People are free to petition the council for something and the council votes to approve or not. That's how the system works. As for what you see, I'm sure it's exactly what you want to see. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.2.7  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @4.2.4    3 weeks ago
Native people and her ancestors, those people which have a hell of a lot more to say about it

Maybe with the radical left they do, I believe in equality. No special groups.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.2.8  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @4.2.6    3 weeks ago

Not on monuments. The people must be allowed to vote.

It's called democracy.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
4.2.9  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.2.8    3 weeks ago

Except we are not a democracy. We are a constitutional Republic. And the people don't vote on every single issue that comes up.  That's why we have elected officials.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
4.2.10  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.2.8    3 weeks ago

Is that a rule written down somewhere?

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
4.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  JohnRussell @4    3 weeks ago

Would probably be better if her hand was stretched out towards the ground like she was actually examining something instead of just kinda staring.

Maybe recast the statue giving her a more prominent position?

 
 
 
devangelical
PhD Principal
4.3.1  devangelical  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.3    3 weeks ago

[removed]

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
4.3.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  devangelical @4.3.1    3 weeks ago

Ah come on charger, I can take it.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.4  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @4    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.4.1  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @4.4    3 weeks ago

I guess that Indians and other people of color having a say in how they are portrayed is really upsetting to some. 

To fucking bad, deal with it.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.4.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Kavika @4.4.1    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.4.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @4.4.1    3 weeks ago
I guess that Indians and other people of color having a say in how they are portrayed is really upsetting to some. 

If they are residents of Virginia they should get to vote on it.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.4.4  Kavika   replied to  JohnRussell @4.4.2    3 weeks ago
Kavika, some people are crumbling before our eyes. 

They sure are and their feet are stuck in 1850.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.4.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @4.4.4    3 weeks ago

Let us know when that vote is going to be held. Of course, the city council already negated the will of the people.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.4.6  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @4.4.3    3 weeks ago
If they are residents of Virginia they should get to vote on it.

Not how it works, it's a local issue and that is why the city council voted on it. 

 The council’s decision was cheered by the local Native American tribe, the Monacan Indian Nation.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.4.7  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @4.4.5    3 weeks ago
Let us know when that vote is going to be held. Of course, the city council already negated the will of the people.

More BS from you, Vic.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.4.8  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @4.4.6    3 weeks ago
Not how it works

Yes it is! They also get to recall those ideologues.

In case you hadn't noticed, it is happening to school boards all over the country.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
4.4.9  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.4.5    3 weeks ago

The will of the people is expressed through the votes of their elected reps, in this case the city council. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
4.4.10  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.4.8    3 weeks ago

Then a recall can be petitioned and voted on. Let us know when that happens.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.4.11  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.4.9    3 weeks ago
The will of the people is expressed through the votes of their elected reps

Especially when it comes to election rules, yet the unelected got to overrule those regulations in 2020.

So, tell us when is it that laws get followed?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.4.12  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.4.9    3 weeks ago
The will of the people is expressed through the votes of their elected reps, in this case the city council. 

That certainly didn't happen in Delaware, when the statue of Edward Colston was pulled down and then tossed into the Floating Harbour, it made headlines around the world.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
4.4.13  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.4.11    3 weeks ago

Care to be more specific? Are you talking about changes to election rules in the 2020 election and judges ruling whether they should stand? You will have to go case by case, maybe the changes were bullshit and illegal, maybe they weren’t. Idk and am not going to take the time to investigate.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
4.4.14  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.4.12    3 weeks ago

Yeah, only found stories about a statue of that guy in the UK, so what that has to do with American city councils and elections I am not sure. Sounds like you are spouting some bullshit unless you have a specific source for it.

Even if it was in the US, so what? you are gonna try to take an example of people taking matters into their own hands as an example of… what? That sometimes people break the law? What a profound insight Vic, thanks.  

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.4.15  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @4.4.8    3 weeks ago
Yes it is! They also get to recall those ideologues.

Yes, you certainly fit as an ideologue. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5  JohnRussell    3 weeks ago

I like the way Vic lists the names of the city council of Charlottesville so we can all email  them and bitch. Precious. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
5.1  Gordy327  replied to  JohnRussell @5    3 weeks ago

I can't believe some bitch about statues honoring traitors or enemies to our country being removed. Not to mention whining about how doing so magically "erases history." 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
5.1.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Gordy327 @5.1    3 weeks ago

Because museums, history books, the internet, documentaries etc. don’t exist. The only way we can possibly remember traitors is by erecting statues of them in places of honor and providing absolutely zero context as to why their name is recorded in the first place.

Come on, logic man.

 
 
 
devangelical
PhD Principal
5.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1.1    3 weeks ago

never mind that the majority of those statues were erected 50 years after the fact by a group of confederate FC's to keep the flame of white supremacy burning bright in the US.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
5.1.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  devangelical @5.1.2    3 weeks ago

Pshhh, silly details.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
5.1.4  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  devangelical @5.1.2    3 weeks ago

Bullshit. They could have left her off completely and had they, would you still bitch about a Lewis and Clark statue?

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
5.1.5  Thrawn 31  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.4    3 weeks ago

Pretty sure she is talking predominantly about the other 2, the ones you have yet to mention.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.6  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.4    3 weeks ago

This is the first time I have ever seen this statue . My first thought would have been that the crouched figure was being protected from something by the two upright men. I could also see why some have said that the crouching figure is in a subservient position in relation to the other two figures. 

It is an unfortunate design.  I havent seen any news stories that show what the sculptor was thinking, so we all have to judge it for ourselves. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
5.1.7  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1.5    3 weeks ago

I realize that but I just don't get why this one must come down. In the interest of "fair play"? I think not.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
5.1.8  Gordy327  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1.1    3 weeks ago

[Slaps forehead] of course, silly me. What was I thinking? Perhaps we should erect statues of Hitler so we don't forget about WWII or the holocaust, right? jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
5.1.9  Thrawn 31  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.7    3 weeks ago

Eh, idk. As I have expressed maybe they could recast it an make her look less like she is just blankly staring at the ground, but I don’t have a strong opinion about that one. I do know that we have some native folks here, and I can understand why they might feel some kinda way about it, but it just isn’t a big thing to me one way or the other. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
5.1.10  Thrawn 31  replied to  Gordy327 @5.1.8    3 weeks ago

Lol, I made that same argument to Nerm when he was going on one of his borderline racist spiels. Except we have to make sure that they are placed in government halls, on federal grounds, and we should probably name some military facilities after them as well just to be sure we never forget. And of course the statues must be cast with them in heroic looking poses marching forth to victory, cuz history and shit.

 
 
 
devangelical
PhD Principal
5.1.11  devangelical  replied to  Gordy327 @5.1.8    3 weeks ago

careful, some autocrat here would volunteer their front yard for that one...

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
5.1.12  Gordy327  replied to  devangelical @5.1.11    3 weeks ago

I wouldn't be surprised if that happened 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
5.1.13  Gordy327  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1.10    3 weeks ago

Speaking of history, I once asked some if they thought slavery was moral, since it is not prohibited by God or the Bible, as some believe morals come from god.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
5.1.14  Thrawn 31  replied to  Gordy327 @5.1.13    3 weeks ago

Lol, oh I can imagine the knots they tied themselves into on that one, but hey, that is what happens when you claim your god to be omniscient and omnipotent. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.1.15  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1.5    3 weeks ago

Who is she?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
5.1.16  Gordy327  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1.14    3 weeks ago

They mostly deflected to avoid directly answering.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
5.1.17  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @5.1.15    3 weeks ago

Idk, you tell me. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.1.18  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1.17    3 weeks ago

In Post 5.1.5 you refer to Devon as "she."

So, is Devon a she?

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
5.1.19  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @5.1.18    3 weeks ago

Idk, just guessed. Could be wrong. 

 
 
 
devangelical
PhD Principal
5.1.20  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @5.1.18    3 weeks ago

who's devon?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.2  Ender  replied to  JohnRussell @5    3 weeks ago

I don't think this site should be advertising that.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.2.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Ender @5.2    3 weeks ago

I dont really "like" it. That was sarcasm. Maybe Perrie will remove it from his article. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @5    3 weeks ago

It's easy to find.

Why shouldn't they have their names attached to it?  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6  JohnRussell    3 weeks ago
The two Confederate statues removed were of legendary General's Robert E Lee and "Stonewall" Jackson, both native Virginians.

If I remember correctly, some time ago you seeded an article or wrote an article praising Robert E Lee. It might have been one of your book review seeds. 

You are a great admirer of Lee. 

Lee had the view that slavery should remain in place until God Almighty decided that the black race had advanced enough civilizationally to merit freedom. 

Do you find Lee's stance on that justifiable? 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
6.1  Gordy327  replied to  JohnRussell @6    3 weeks ago

It's quite telling about those who advocate keeping statues honoring those who fought against our nation and/or defended slavery. Personally, I fail to see any rational justification unless one actually agrees with their position.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.1.1  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1    3 weeks ago
It's quite telling about those who advocate keeping statues honoring those who fought against our nation and/or defended slavery.

It's quite telling about those who try to derail the conversation. Lewis and Clark were not Confederates.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
6.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @6.1.1    3 weeks ago

Jackson & Lee were! Funny how you seem to ignore that.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.1.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.2    3 weeks ago
Jackson & Lee were!

But they are not the topic, are they?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
6.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @6.1.3    3 weeks ago

Yes, they are. It's in the article! So they're fair game.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.1.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.4    3 weeks ago

They are mentioned out of contrast, but the focus was the removal of the monument to the explorers. If you prefer not to discuss that, I understand.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
6.1.6  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @6.1.5    3 weeks ago

I see you prefer to not discuss the removal of Confederate heroes. Let's gloss over that,  eh?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  Vic Eldred @6.1.5    3 weeks ago

If an article contains a certain word, then that certain word can be considered the "topic", even though most folks can tell what a topic is and isn't.

Not everyone, apparently.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.1.8  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @6.1.6    3 weeks ago

No thanks. I'll stick to the topic.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.1.9  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Texan1211 @6.1.7    3 weeks ago
If an article contains a certain word

That's been the technicality they've played with during their time. Things have changed.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  Vic Eldred @6.1.9    3 weeks ago

The whole premise is ridiculous, IMO.

I always figured we all learned how to identify subjects in school, and could read an article and get what the topic is.

I have been shown I am wrong on that.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
6.1.11  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @6.1.8    3 weeks ago

Except the statues are also part of the topic.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @6    3 weeks ago
If I remember correctly, some time ago you seeded an article or wrote an article praising Robert E Lee.

You got it right.


It might have been one of your book review seeds. 

You're sharp as a tack today.


You are a great admirer of Lee. 

As well as all great military commanders, from Caesar to MacArthur [&] Nimitz.


Lee had the view that slavery should remain in place until God Almighty decided that the black race had advanced enough civilizationally to merit freedom.

Don't bother John. Lee made a decision one night that his home state of Virginia was where his loyalty belonged. He easily could have commanded the Union Army. If he had the Civil War would have ended a lot sooner with a lot less loss of life.


Do you find Lee's stance on that justifiable? 

That was not his stance and it wouldn't have made4 a difference. He was still most likely the greatest military leader this country ever produced. [deleted]

Now that we've taken your little detour, do you really agree whit what the city council did?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @6.2    3 weeks ago
That was not his stance and it wouldn't have made4 a difference.

[ deleted ]

This is from a letter Lee wrote to his wife

 The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially [ & ] physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, [ & I hope will prepare & ] lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is Known [ & ordered by a wise & ] merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild [ & ] melting influence of Christianity, than the storms [ & ] tempests of fiery Controversy. This influence though slow is sure. The doctrines [ & ] miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to Convert but a small part of the human race, [ & ] even Christian nations, what gross errors still exist! While we see the Course of the final abolition of human slavery is onward, [ & ] we give it the aid of our prayers [ & ] all justifiable means in our power we must leave the progress as well as the result in his hands who Sees the end; who Chooses to work by slow influences ; [ & ] with whom two thousand years are but a single day. Although the abolitionist must Know this; [ & ] must see that he has neither the right or power of operating except by moral means [ & suasion, & ] if he means well to the slave, he must not create angry feelings in the master; that although he may not approve the mode by which it pleases Providence to accomplish its purposes, the result will nevertheless be the same: that the reasons he gives for interference in what he has no Concern, holds good for every Kind of interference with our neighbours when we disapprove their Conduct; Still I fear he will persevere in his evil Course. Is it not strange that the descendants of those pilgrim fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom of opinion, have always proved themselves intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others. Letter from Robert E. Lee to Mary Randolph Custis Lee (December 27, 1856) – Encyclopedia Virginia
 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2.2  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.1    3 weeks ago

One has to be a special kind of willfully blind to not see the meaning of Lee's words. He was fine with slavery unless and until God decided it's time was up. 

Kind of the operational definition of moral cowardice. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
6.2.3  Gordy327  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.2    3 weeks ago

According to the Bible, God was ok with slavery too.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.2.4  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.1    3 weeks ago

We need not perform any interpretations of a letter Lee wrote to his wife regarding his random thoughts.

History clearly defined Lee's reasons:

 "In his meetings with Francis Preston Blair and Winfield Scott on April 18, 1861, Lee proclaimed that though opposed to secession he “would not take up arms against the South” or fellow Southerners."

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.2.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.2    3 weeks ago
One has to be a special kind of willfully blind

One has to be heavily invested in an ideology to go to such trouble.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2.6  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @6.2.5    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
7  Thrawn 31    3 weeks ago
The two Confederate statues removed were of legendary General's Robert E Lee and "Stonewall" Jackson, both native Virginians.

Sure they were legendary generals, also traitors fighting to keep black people enslaved and considered to be sub-human.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
8  Just Jim NC TttH    3 weeks ago

256

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
8.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8    3 weeks ago

Do you REALLY wanna go down that road? 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
8.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8    3 weeks ago

Just Jim, what has Kamala Harris done to you personally to make you hate her so much?  Is your life or the life of your close family and friends been so drastically hurt by Kamala Harris existence? Same with Biden. How has Biden's mental infirmity that you believe exists effected you personally? Was your pay cut on Biden's orders? Were you evicted? Perhaps the local store no longer carries your favorite beer or cigars because Biden is senile. The local baseball team is losing because Biden is president. 

Do you get my drift? 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
8.2.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @8.2    3 weeks ago

Nice word salad and I don't hate anyone. Let alone Harris or Biden. How does it go again? Oh yeah, projection, deflection, and denial.

And you never did answer that question when the name was Trump. Except you were "offended" by his brashness.

256

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
8.2.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8.2.1    3 weeks ago

Arent you the one who asks people how their lives have been personally damaged by Trump? 

Yes you are

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
8.2.3  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @8.2.2    3 weeks ago

Have I ever expressed the constant disdain for anyone in the PotUS position such as you yourself did for over 5 years? Why no. No I haven't. Wanna know why? Because I am not so fucking arrogant to think that the whole world needs to agree with my POV. I may not like the policies of some but I can only change that with my vote. Other than that, there isn't a damned thing I can do about it especially on an anonymous comment site where I am not going to change a damned thing or mind...............

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
8.2.4  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8.2.3    3 weeks ago

Donald Trump was the worst president in the history of this country. Plus he insisted on broadcasting his profound personal ignorance on a daily, if not hourly basis. He has deserved everything he has gotten in the way of criticism and more. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
8.2.5  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @8.2.4    3 weeks ago

And THAT is your opinion which will NOT change the minds of 73 million people.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
8.2.6  Thrawn 31  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8.2.3    3 weeks ago

Jim, you do comment on POTUS seeds a lot, expressing your opinion, and as far as I can tell universally negative of Biden. Which is fine, that is what everyone here does. There isn’t a high road to take here my friend.

Of course none of our thoughts or opinions expressed here about anything matter in the slightest. IMO this is just a place to see other’s perspectives and vent. Oh and shit talk certain people because why not?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
8.2.7  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8.2.5    3 weeks ago

I dont care about changing their minds, I care about defeating them and getting trump and trumpism and Q Anon and all their bullshit white nationalism out of the public consciousness. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
8.2.8  JohnRussell  replied to  Thrawn 31 @8.2.6    3 weeks ago

Trump defenders main position , at least on sites like NT, is "why do you care"?

Of course one could just as easily ask, or even more easily ask, why do they care about the fact that a city wants to remove statues and put up new ones. Yet here he is making ten comments on the seed. 

Everything people say is arbitrary.  That is kind of the nature of the world. People could have always said something else instead. So what? 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.9  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @8.2    3 weeks ago

Allow me:

Kamala Harris set up a fund to get rioters out of jail.

Joe Biden

1) He opened our southern border completely.

2) Immediately stopped the Keystone Pipeline eliminating 11,000 direct jobs and an estimated 60,000 indirect jobs in secondary and related industries. He had no problem with Russia building a pipeline to Germany. He also banned fracking. For a brief moment pre-Biden America was a self sufficient energy producer.

3) Gas prices have risen 18% with $4 per gallon on the horizon.

4) Biden has been a puppet for the left and is creating an unspeakable deficit which means real inflation is also on the horizon.

5) He is going along with a radical scheme to nationalize elections in order to benefit democrats.

He's only been in office for 6 months.

We all get it. He was a nice old man who ate ice cream. That's what counts/s

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.10  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @8.2.8    3 weeks ago

Trump and Trump supporters are off topic!

 
 
 
devangelical
PhD Principal
8.2.11  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.10    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
bugsy
PhD Guide
8.2.12  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @8.2.2    3 weeks ago
Arent you the one who asks people how their lives have been personally damaged by Trump

And no one has ever been able to answer it.

Nothing but triggered responses from what I remember.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9  JohnRussell    3 weeks ago

This is maybe a better angle of it than the one in the article

800

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
9.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @9    3 weeks ago

And it looks to me as though she is sitting on the same rock that one of the explorers is standing on from that angle. Not crouching in subservience. The positioning of the legs as well as the feet would indicate that.........to me. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @9.1    3 weeks ago

The design of this monument was very unfortunate. It takes no leap of imagination to  see her in a lesser position, in effect hiding behind the two strong white men. Whether it is what the sculptor intended or not that is the clear effect . 

Lets just call it a day for this one and put up a better one. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
9.1.2  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @9.1.1    3 weeks ago
"in a lesser position, in effect hiding behind the two strong white men."

Opinions vary. And it still looks as though she only may be behind one of them and beside the other.

And fair enough on the moving on

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @9.1.1    3 weeks ago
Lets just call it a day for this one and put up a better one. 

Let the people of Virginia vote. PERIOD!

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
9.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.3    3 weeks ago

Sure, if a statue is on state property. If it's on city property, then the city votes.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.4    3 weeks ago

LMAO!  It's all part of Virginia. Even bright blue northern Virginia!

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.6  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @9.1.2    3 weeks ago

Maybe we can look at it from 9 more angles before the radical city council puts it on a cart?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
9.1.7  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.5    3 weeks ago

You do realize there is a degree of autonomy between state & city (& federal) governments, right Vic?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
9.1.8  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.6    3 weeks ago

Feel free to challenge their vote and escalate the issue via due process.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.9  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.7    3 weeks ago

It's all about technical differences.

Just like using the first amendment to deny free speech.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.10  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.8    3 weeks ago
Feel free to challenge their vote and escalate the issue via due process.

That is for the people of Virginia.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
9.1.11  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.10    3 weeks ago

Then why are you complaining about it?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
9.1.12  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.9    3 weeks ago

The difference is, a city can decide what stands on city property and a state can decide what stands on state property. As for your free speech point, that's just a strawman.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.13  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.12    3 weeks ago
The difference is, a city can decide what stands on city property and a state can decide what stands on state property.

Except when a mob tears it down.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
9.1.14  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.13    3 weeks ago

Strawman argument again. The statues in question were approved for removal.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.1.15  Texan1211  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.13    3 weeks ago

Maybe we should simply do away with every single monument and statue in the entire country so everyone will just stop droning on about them?

And instead of naming streets and schools and parks, we can just give them numbers (if the folks who claim math is racist don't object).

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.16  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.15    3 weeks ago
Maybe we should simply do away with every single monument and statue in the entire country so everyone will just stop droning on about them?

That is exactly what the American left seems to want.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.1.17  Texan1211  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.16    3 weeks ago

Just think how much angst and aggravation we would be saving future generations of Americans when they don't have to judge past Americans by their standards of the future.

Look how much more productive Congress could be without naming post offices!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.1.18  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.15    3 weeks ago
Maybe we should simply do away with every single monument and statue in the entire country so everyone will just stop droning on about them?

Wouldnt bother me a bit. Public statues are largely a remnant of the pre technological world before we could commemorate people with film and video and even sound recording. Public art can take many forms without needing to be of controversial people. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.1.19  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @9.1.18    3 weeks ago
Public art can take many forms without needing to be of controversial people. 

Many people are deemed to be controversial when judged by different standards than what they were in their own time.

Of course, that still probably won't be enough to satisfy some folks hellbent on removing anything and everything deemed bad by them today.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @9    3 weeks ago

It definitely looks as though she is looking at or for a trail. I don't think it would matter if she had a map in her hand. For the radical left it's not a good look.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.2.1  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2    3 weeks ago
For the radical left it's not a good look.

The radical right isn't looking good at all. The statue represents when Lewis and Clark first saw the Pacific Ocean so why would Sacagewea be looking at a trail when the ocean is right there and that is what she would be looking at..

Another swing and a miss, Vic.

BTW, in case you missed it in my earlier comments the statue in question will be displayed in the Lewis and Clark Museum. Imagine that in their own museum how upsetting it must be for the righties.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @9.2.1    3 weeks ago
BTW, in case you missed it in my earlier comments the statue in question will be displayed in the Lewis and Clark Museum.

You have yet to provide us with the link. My second request.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @9.2.1    3 weeks ago
so why would Sacagewea be looking at a trail

Did you know she also sought out edible plants?

Do you know of the Shoshone?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.2.4  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2.3    3 weeks ago
Did you know she also sought out edible plants?

Of course which has nothing to do with my comment. 

Do you know of theShoshone?

Which branch are you asking about, the Lemhi Shoshone? There are a number of different Shoshone tribes and an offshoot called the Commanche.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @9.2.4    3 weeks ago
Of course which has nothing to do with my comment. 

It has everything to do with your comment. How do you know the sculptor didn't have here looking for those plants?


Which branch are you asking about, the Lemhi Shoshone?

I guess you don't.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.2.6  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2.5    3 weeks ago
It has everything to do with your comment. How do you know the sculptor didn't have here looking for those plants?
youre-kidding.gif

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2.7  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @9.2.6    3 weeks ago

You are all trying to get in his head. It's a reasonable question.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.2.8  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2.5    3 weeks ago
It has everything to do with your comment. How do you know the sculptor didn't have here looking for those plants?

Since they were overlooking the Pacific why would she be looking for plants on a trail....LOL

I guess you don't.

Making assumption really makes you look like bad. The Lemhi Shoshone are Sacagawea Shoshone band. You seem to be the one that doesn't know much about it and that is not surprising at all. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.2.9  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2.2    3 weeks ago

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2.10  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @9.2.9    3 weeks ago

That article disproves your claim that the explorer statue was going into a specific museum:

From your article:

Although the statues have been removed, the City Council still needs to vote on what will happen to them.


Finally we got the truth!

Persistence paid off!

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.2.11  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2.10    3 weeks ago

Of course, they will, that is what the general rule is it also said it was being moved to the Lewis and Clark area and then it will be voted on.

Personally, I could give a fuck less what happens to it [deleted]

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2.12  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @9.2.11    3 weeks ago
Of course,

You said:

"The current one will be moved to the Lewis and Clark Museum." Way back in Post 1.3 

I asked you twice to prove it. You finally posted an article that disproves it.

Thank you.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.2.13  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2.12    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
9.2.14  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2.10    3 weeks ago

The Lewis and Clark Exploratory Center is located in Darren Towe Park, a public park within Charlottesville.

According to the article, the statue was sent Darren Towe Park for storage.

The Center has been asking for the statue to be relocated to the Center for years while trying to work with the City of Charlottesville to cover expenses.

So the City has removed the statue and sent it to the very Park where the Lewis & Clark Center is already located.

Sounds like a done deal as long as Council approves after the Center does the paper work.

People have been calling and emailing us about the City’s RFI about the Lewis, Clark, and Sacajawea statue. Though we were not alerted in advance about this RFI, we have been working on this issue for a long time with many partners, including the City. We have been writing grants and examining avenues and projects, in particular projects that would offer indigenous leadership while keeping the statue within Charlottesville, examining its place within history and art history, and informing each visitor so that they can discover their own viewpoint. We will be in touch again as this community process proceeds. Feel free to write us with your interest at lewisandclark@lewisandclarkexploratorycenter.org Depending on the number of emails, we may not be able to write you individually, but we will respond to the issues raised. Thank you for your interest! 

Sounds like a solution will be coming very shortly.

Finally we got the truth!

Persistence paid off!

Pyrrhic victory?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2.15  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Split Personality @9.2.14    3 weeks ago
Sounds like a done deal as long as Council approves

That's called "the rub."   It's like having a can without a can opener.

We shall all watch for the all powerful city council's next move.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Senior Principal
10  Nerm_L    3 weeks ago

The culture war has become a competition between victims.  And more victims are migrating into the country every day.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
10.1  Gordy327  replied to  Nerm_L @10    3 weeks ago

What victims?

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
10.1.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Gordy327 @10.1    3 weeks ago

Oh god, here he goes about blacks again…

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
10.1.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @10.1    3 weeks ago
What victims?

You know, "oppressors" & "victims,"  AKA the evil ideology!

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
10.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @10.1.2    3 weeks ago

More BS I see. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
10.1.4  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @10.1.3    3 weeks ago

Plenty, but not from me.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
10.1.5  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @10.1.4    3 weeks ago

Mostly from you

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
11  Hallux    3 weeks ago

Yada, yada yada ...

Was Sacagawea a scout? I doubt it as she had a newborn child at the time. Her purpose seems to have been as a translator, as a symbol of non-aggression and as a gatherer of roots. Her husband, a French Canadian, served as scout. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
11.1  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Hallux @11    3 weeks ago
Was Sacagawea a scout?

Departing on April 7, the expedition ascended the Missouri. On May 14, Charbonneau nearly capsized the white  pirogue  (boat) in which Sacagawea was riding. Remaining calm, she retrieved important papers, instruments, books, medicine, and other indispensable valuables that otherwise would have been lost. During the next week Lewis and Clark named a tributary of  Montana’s  Mussellshell River "Sah-ca-gah-weah,” or “Bird Woman’s River," after her. She proved to be a significant asset in numerous ways: searching for edible plants, making  moccasin s and clothing, as well as allaying suspicions of approaching Indian tribes through her presence; a woman and child accompanying a party of men indicated peaceful intentions.

Sacagawea was not the guide for the expedition, as some have erroneously portrayed her; nonetheless, she recognized landmarks in southwestern Montana and informed Clark that Bozeman Pass was the best route between the Missouri and  Yellowstone  rivers on their return journey. On July 25, 1806, Clark named Pompey’s Tower (now  Pompey’s Pillar ) on the Yellowstone after her son, whom Clark fondly called his “little dancing boy, Pomp.”

The Charbonneau family disengaged from the expedition party upon their return to the Mandan-Hidatsa villages; Charbonneau eventually received $409.16 and 320 acres (130 hectares) for his services. Clark wanted to do more for their family, so he offered to assist them and eventually secured Charbonneau a position as an interpreter. The family traveled to  St. Louis  in 1809 to baptize their son and left him in the care of Clark, who had earlier offered to provide him with an education. Shortly after the birth of a daughter named Lisette, a woman identified only as Charbonneau’s wife (but believed to be Sacagawea) died at the end of 1812 at Fort Manuel, near present-day Mobridge,  South Dakota . Clark became the legal guardian of Lisette and Jean Baptiste and listed Sacagawea as deceased in a list he compiled in the 1820s.

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
11.1.1  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @11.1    3 weeks ago

Well aren't you just a bastion of info after the fact. Tell you what, after you slip your Sacagawea Dollar back into its dust cover, look up Randy'L He-dow Teton and know who you are really looking at.

While you're at it look up Glenna Goodacre's other works.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
11.1.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Hallux @11.1.1    3 weeks ago

I'll stick with the Britanica

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
11.1.3  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @11.1.2    3 weeks ago

There are wider horizons available Vic, you shouldn't limit yourself.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
12  Just Jim NC TttH    3 weeks ago

Well I guess it's a damned good thing the pyramids aren't here in the US. The Egyptians were slave owners.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1  Texan1211  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @12    3 weeks ago
Well I guess it's a damned good thing the pyramids aren't here in the US. The Egyptians were slave owners.

If progressive liberals get their way, a day will come when diplomatic relations with Egypt will hinge on demands to remove those mammoth monuments to slavery.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Sophomore Principal
12.1.1  Gsquared  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1    3 weeks ago

Conversely, if reactionary conservatives get their way, slavery will be re-imposed on America 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  Gsquared @12.1.1    3 weeks ago
Conversely, if reactionary conservatives get their way, slavery will be re-imposed on America

Most folks know that the group supporting that is so small as to be insignificant.

Nothing to worry about, slavery isn't making some comeback no matter how many times progressive liberals go all Chicken Little about it.

Get real.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
12.1.3  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.2    3 weeks ago

Sadly a lot of blacks AND whites are slaves now. Just highly paid and compensated slaves. They go out every year and beat the shit out of each other for the rest of the country's entertainment. Lot of money yep. But about those health issues...........meh......../s

 
 
 
Gsquared
Sophomore Principal
12.1.4  Gsquared  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.2    3 weeks ago

You're telling me to "Get real".  Hilarious.  The irony...

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.1.5  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @12.1.3    3 weeks ago
Sadly a lot of blacks AND whites are slaves now. Just highly paid and compensated slaves.

Your understanding of the word slavery is sorely lacking.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1.6  Texan1211  replied to  Gsquared @12.1.4    3 weeks ago

Why, yes, yes I did.

Outstanding recognition!

jrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
12.1.7  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @12.1.5    3 weeks ago

You express your opinion over and over AND over daily and I do mine. Tough shit if you don't like it. Capiche?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.1.8  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @12.1.7    3 weeks ago

People who get paid millions of dollars to be entertainers are not slaves. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
12.1.9  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @12.1.8    3 weeks ago

So we pay them exorbitant amounts of money for a short period of "entertainment" that many will pay dearly for later in life. I guess if you are an instant gratification kind of person, BFD right. By doing so we promote and early ages the "get rich" scheme and lead them into that life with our hard earned cash and sponsorship (which we all pay for BTW through the product(s) that pay for advertising) and the hope they too can spend millions and fuck the future right?

I know it's a stretch but, If you think especially about football, maybe not so much.

(Now you grow up and beat the piss our of yourself for my entertainment) Well I guess the parents get to reap some of that cash too. How many of them buy their momma a house right out of the blocks. And it doesn't even take till 10-15 years later in life to get the bad news you have a career ending injury.

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
12.2  Hallux  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @12    3 weeks ago

Herodotus was wrong about that, just as British historians were wrong about the Spanish  Inquisition, the Brits were far worse. Judge any history you read by those who wrote it and their politics.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
12.2.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Hallux @12.2    3 weeks ago

Good read thanks. Still skeptical of his formed opinion based pretty much solely on the way they were buried but it's very plausible.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
13  Just Jim NC TttH    3 weeks ago

256

One can't fundamentally change something without first tearing it down. Chew on that.

 
 
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