Kremlin papers appear to show Putin’s plot to put Trump in White House

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  john-russell  •  2 weeks ago  •  59 comments

Kremlin papers appear to show Putin’s plot to put Trump in White House
Vladimir Putin personally authorised a secret spy agency operation to support a “mentally unstable” Donald Trump in the 2016 US presidential election during a closed session of Russia’s national security council, according to what are assessed to be leaked Kremlin documents.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Kremlin papers appear to show Putin’s plot to put Trump in White House

Exclusive: Documents suggest Russia launched secret multi-agency effort to interfere in US democracy

Vladimir Putin personally authorised a secret spy agency operation to support a “mentally unstable” Donald Trump in the 2016 US presidential election during a closed session of Russia’s national security council, according to what are assessed to be leaked Kremlin documents.

The key meeting took place on 22 January 2016, the papers suggest, with the Russian president, his spy chiefs and senior ministers all present.

They agreed a Trump White House would help secure Moscow’s strategic objectives, among them “social turmoil” in the US and a weakening of the American president’s negotiating position.

Russia’s three spy agencies were ordered to find practical ways to support Trump, in a decree appearing to bear Putin’s signature.

By this point Trump was the frontrunner in the Republican party’s nomination race. A report prepared by Putin’s expert department recommended Moscow use “all possible force” to ensure a Trump victory.

Western intelligence agencies are understood to have been aware of the documents for some months and to have carefully examined them. The papers, seen by the Guardian, seem to represent a serious and highly unusual leak from within the Kremlin.

The Guardian has shown the documents to independent experts who say they appear to be genuine. Incidental details come across as accurate. The overall tone and thrust is said to be consistent with Kremlin security thinking.

The Kremlin responded dismissively. Putin’s spokesman Dmitri Peskov said the idea that Russian leaders had met and agreed to support Trump in at the meeting in early 2016 was “a great pulp fiction” when contacted by the Guardian on Thursday morning.

The report – “No 32-04 \ vd” – is classified as secret. It says Trump is the “most promising candidate” from the Kremlin’s point of view. The word in Russian is perspektivny.

There is a brief psychological assessment of Trump, who is described as an “impulsive, mentally unstable and unbalanced individual who suffers from an inferiority complex”.

There is also apparent confirmation that the Kremlin possesses kompromat, or potentially compromising material, on the future president, collected – the document says – from Trump’s earlier “non-official visits to Russian Federation territory”.

The paper refers to “certain events” that happened during Trump’s trips to Moscow. Security council members are invited to find details in appendix five, at paragraph five, the document states. It is unclear what the appendix contains.

“It is acutely necessary to use all possible force to facilitate his [Trump’s] election to the post of US president,” the paper says.

This would help bring about Russia’s favoured “theoretical political scenario”. A Trump win “will definitely lead to the destabilisation of the US’s sociopolitical system” and see hidden discontent burst into the open, it predicts.

The Kremlin summit

There is no doubt that the meeting in January 2016 took place – and that it was convened inside the Kremlin.

An official photo of the occasion shows Putin at the head of the table, seated beneath a Russian Federation flag and a two-headed golden eagle. Russia’s then prime minister, Dmitry Medvedev, attended, together with the veteran foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov.

Also present were Sergei Shoigu, the defence minister in charge of the GRU, Russia’s military intelligence agency; Mikhail Fradkov, the then chief of Russia’s SVR foreign intelligence service; and Alexander Bortnikov, the boss of the FSB spy agency.Nikolai Patrushev, the FSB’s former director, attended too as security council secretary.

According to a press release, the discussion covered the economy and Moldova.

The document seen by the Guardian suggests the security council’s real, covert purpose was to discuss the confidential proposals drawn up by the president’s analytical service in response to US sanctions against Moscow.

The author appears to be Vladimir Symonenko, the senior official in charge of the Kremlin’s expert department – which provides Putin with analytical material and reports, some of them based on foreign intelligence.

The papers indicate that on 14 January 2016 Symonenko circulated a three-page executive summary of his team’s conclusions and recommendations.

In a signed order two days later, Putin instructed the then chief of his foreign policy directorate, Alexander Manzhosin, to convene a closed briefing of the national security council.

Its purpose was to further study the document, the order says. Manzhosin was given a deadline of five days to make arrangements.

What was said inside the second-floor Kremlin senate building room is unknown. But the president and his intelligence officials appear to have signed off on a multi-agency plan to interfere in US democracy, framed in terms of justified self-defence.

Various measures are cited that the Kremlin might adopt in response to what it sees as hostile acts from Washington. The paper lays out several American weaknesses. These include a “deepening political gulf between left and right”, the US’s “media-information” space, and an anti-establishment mood under President Barack Obama.

The paper does not name Hillary Clinton, Trump’s 2016 rival. It does suggest employing media resources to undermine leading US political figures.

There are paragraphs on how Russia might insert “media viruses” into American public life, which could become self-sustaining and self-replicating. These would alter mass consciousness, especially in certain groups, it says.

After the meeting, according to a separate leaked document, Putin issued a decree setting up a new and secret interdepartmental commission. Its urgent task was to realise the goals set out in the “special part” of document No 32-04 \ vd.

Members of the new working body were stated to include Shoigu, Fradkov and Bortnikov. Shoigu was named commission chair. The decree – ukaz in Russian – said the group should take practical steps against the US as soon as possible. These were justified on national security grounds and in accordance with a 2010 federal law, 390-FZ, which allows the council to formulate state policy on security matters.

According to the document, each spy agency was given a role. The defence minister was instructed to coordinate the work of subdivisions and services. Shoigu was also responsible for collecting and systematising necessary information and for “preparing measures to act on the information environment of the object” – a command, it seems, to hack sensitive American cyber-targets identified by the SVR.

The SVR was told to gather additional information to support the commission’s activities. The FSB was assigned counter-intelligence. Putin approved the apparent document, dated 22 January 2016, which his chancellery stamped.

The measures were effective immediately on Putin’s signature, the decree says. The spy chiefs were given just over a week to come back with concrete ideas, to be submitted by 1 February.

Written in bureaucratic language, the papers appear to offer an unprecedented glimpse into the usually hidden world of Russian government decision-making.

Putin has repeatedly denied accusations of interfering in western democracy. The documents seem to contradict this claim. They suggest the president, his spy officers and senior ministers were all intimately involved in one of the most important and audacious espionage operations of the 21st century: a plot to help put the “mentally unstable” Trump in the White House.

The papers appear to set out a route map for what actually happened in 2016.

A matter of weeks after the security council meeting, GRU hackers raided the servers of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and subsequently released thousands of private emails in an attempt to hurt Clinton’s election campaign.

The report seen by the Guardian features details redolent of Russian intelligence work, diplomatic sources say. The thumbnail sketch of Trump’s personality is characteristic of Kremlin spy agency analysis, which places great emphasis on building up a profile of individuals using both real and cod psychology.

Moscow would gain most from a Republican victory, the paper states. This could lead to a “social explosion” that would in turn weaken the US president, it says. There were international benefits from a Trump win, it stresses. Putin would be able in clandestine fashion to dominate any US-Russia bilateral talks, to deconstruct the White House’s negotiating position, and to pursue bold foreign policy initiatives on Russia’s behalf, it says.

Other parts of the multi-page report deal with non-Trump themes. It says sanctions imposed by the US after Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea have contributed to domestic tensions. The Kremlin should seek alternative ways of attracting liquidity into the Russian economy, it concludes.

The document recommends the reorientation of trade and hydrocarbon exports towards China. Moscow’s focus should be to influence the US and its satellite countries, it says, so they drop sanctions altogether or soften them.

‘Spell-binding’ documents

Andrei Soldatov, an expert on Russia’s spy agencies and author of The Red Web, said the leaked material “reflects reality”. “It’s consistent with the procedures of the security services and the security council,” he said. “Decisions are always made like that, with advisers providing information to the president and a chain of command.”

He added: “The Kremlin micromanages most of these operations. Putin has made it clear to his spies since at least 2015 that nothing can be done independently from him. There is no room for independent action.” Putin decided to release stolen DNC emails following a security council meeting in April 2016, Soldatov said, citing his own sources.

Sir Andrew Wood, the UK’s former ambassador in Moscow and an associate fellow at the Chatham House thinktank, described the documents as “spell-binding”. “They reflect the sort of discussion and recommendations you would expect. There is a complete misunderstanding of the US and China. They are written for a person [Putin] who can’t believe he got anything wrong.”

Wood added: “There is no sense Russia might have made a mistake by invading Ukraine. The report is fully in line with the sort of thing I would expect in 2016, and even more so now. There is a good deal of paranoia. They believe the US is responsible for everything. This view is deeply dug into the soul of Russia’s leaders.”

Trump did not respond to a request for comment.


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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  seeder  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

Bombshell story, other than that the Kremlin considered Trump to be "mentally unstable". That was always a given. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
1.1  igknorantzrulz  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 weeks ago

sounds spot on to what has happeened , yet, sordidly sorta ironic , pee wee Putin , showerin our Golden "Won", know, cause many did, and farr too many, knot a clue....

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  igknorantzrulz @1.1    2 weeks ago

The Guardian is a major mainstream daily newspaper based in Great Britain. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  seeder  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

'The pee tape is real': Critics claim Kremlin leak confirms 'every awful thing said about Trump ends up being absolutely true'

image.jpg?width=1200&height=645

Leaked documents confirm that Russian president Vladimir Putin holds compromising blackmail leverage over Donald Trump, and that's why he personally directed Kremlin spy agencies to secretly work to get him elected president.

The Guardian   obtained documents   that experts believe came from a Jan. 22, 2016, meeting of Russia's national security council that refers to "certain events" that took place during Trump's "non-official visits to Russian Federation territory" in the years before entering politics.

Naturally, social media users immediately concluded the leaked documents confirmed the most salacious detail from the Steele dossier.

The pee tape is real.
— Uncle “Not Travelling” Michael (@Uncle “Not Travelling” Michael)   1626348055.0

Wow. @guardian obtains a Kremlin document showing Putin signed off on a covert plan to help elect Trump in 2016 bec…
— David Corn (@David Corn)   1626348531.0

Please file this in your "Every Awful Thing Said About Trump Ends Up Being 100% Absolutely True" folder.
— Mr. Newberger (@Mr. Newberger)   1626346092.0

There’s a Pee Pee tape.There is also apparent confirmation that the Kremlin possesses kompromat, or potentially com…
— Nick Merica (@Nick Merica)   1626348010.0

So the @guardian is reporting that, according to Kremlin documents found to be genuine by Western intelligence agen…
— George Conway (@George Conway)   1626345022.0

BREAKING: New reporting from the Guardian reveals that Putin did indeed have compromising material on Trump from no…
— TheSadTruth (@TheSadTruth)   1626346739.0

I knew the pee pee tape existed.
— Greg Spiegler (@Greg Spiegler)   1626346131.0

Kompromat 101.
— Jim "Phantom Buzz" Van Meer (@Jim "Phantom Buzz" Van Meer )   1626348871.0

1. Not surprising 2. They were right 3. They did made it happen. A mentally unstable trump with an inferiority co…
— JJ (@JJ)   1626348016.0

Everything we had believed in the past 5 years about Putin manipulating US media & electoral processes to place a “…
— LarryGJr (@LarryGJr)   1626347425.0

You could tell by how angry he was over the allegations that every bit of it was completely true. Especially the Ko…
— Lev Parnas & Igor Fruman LLC💎 (@Lev Parnas & Igor Fruman LLC💎)   1626349024.0
 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3  seeder  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

Kremlin Leak Appears to Confirm Existence of Trump ‘Kompromat’

A document believed to be from the Kremlin cryptically refers to “certain events” that happened during Trump’s “non-official visits to Russian Federation territory.”

2019-06-28T061515Z_335053877_RC187F8F9730_RTRMADP_3_G20-SUMMIT-TRUMP-PUTIN_loxoe1

Reuters/Mikhail Klimentyev

For years, there have been whispers that the Russian government   holds compromising materials   on   Donald Trump . Now, an alleged leak from the heart of the Kremlin appears to show them boasting about   kompromat .

The supposed leak   obtained by   The Guardian   reportedly   states that President Vladimir Putin personally approved a nefarious plan to throw Russia’s support behind Trump’s 2016 campaign. The document states that Putin, his spy chiefs, and top ministers agreed that a victory for a   “mentally unstable”   Trump would permanently weaken the United States.

The document also reportedly states that the Kremlin has so-called   kompromat   on Trump. It cryptically refers to “certain events” that happened during “non-official visits to Russian Federation territory.” The purported leak doesn’t explain what those events involved—only referring to an appendix that wasn’t attached the obtained document.

Trump is known to have visited Moscow on multiple occasions in the decades before he was elected as president. One memorable section of the Steele dossier threw up some extraordinary but unsubstantiated   claims about the former president and some Russian prostitutes   in a Moscow hotel room when he jetted into Russia for the 2013 Miss Universe pageant.

The document allegedly offers more detail on what Kremlin leaders thought of Trump before he became president and why they wanted him to win. It reportedly describes the future president as an “impulsive, mentally unstable and unbalanced individual who suffers from an inferiority complex,” and, therefore, the “most promising candidate.”

The Guardian   reports that the papers—which appear to be signed off on by Putin himself—state that a Kremlin plan to back Trump was agreed at a meeting of the national security council on Jan. 22, 2016. It reportedly recommends that the Kremlin uses “all possible force” to push Trump to victory and help him sow “social turmoil” in the United States.

The document reportedly predicts that a Trump win “will definitely lead to the destabilization of the U.S.’s sociopolitical system,” and a “social explosion.” The papers threaten to insert “media viruses” into American systems to help exacerbate the chaos of a Trump presidency.

Months after the January 2016 meeting,   Russian hackers broke into the servers of the Democratic National Committee   and released thousands of private emails in an attempt to damage Hillary Clinton’s campaign. According to   The Guardian , Clinton isn’t mentioned in the Kremlin papers.

When contacted by   The Guardian , Putin’s spokesman Dmitri Peskov described the supposed leaked papers as “a great pulp fiction.”

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Masters Expert
4  Greg Jones    2 weeks ago

Is this unsubstantiated bilge all you can come up with? jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Greg Jones @4    2 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5  seeder  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

Some people say that this story contains no hard proof, which is true. 

I would just say that The Guardian is mainstream media in Britain and their stories merit the benefit of further investigation. 

 
 
 
bugsy
PhD Guide
5.1  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @5    2 weeks ago
Some people say that this story contains no hard proof, which is true

Pretty much the story for some on here, huh, John?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  bugsy @5.1    2 weeks ago

The next time you say something interesting or truthful will be the first. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
5.1.2  igknorantzrulz  replied to  bugsy @5.1    2 weeks ago

if i were Putin, that's what i would of done

 
 
 
bugsy
PhD Guide
5.1.3  bugsy  replied to  igknorantzrulz @5.1.2    2 weeks ago
if i were Putin,

Your ideology is not that far off.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
5.1.4  igknorantzrulz  replied to  bugsy @5.1.3    2 weeks ago
our ideology is not that far off.

and just like me, you can't understand Putin. He's miles ahead of insecurity blanky boy Trumpy who compared to Putin, is a little boy just lookin for a little Orange shower and mounds of Almond Joy spewed by some Pist off Russian Prostitutes that deluged the delusional one with a hell of a lot of Trumpism, cuz to Trump, related to too FUn E, is a dossier  that has yet to be disproven to this day, Y is it this Way ?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
5.2  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @5    2 weeks ago
Some people say that this story contains no hard proof, which is true.

However 1/3 of the people here think the election was stolen, with no hard proof.  They still believe it.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.2.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Ozzwald @5.2    2 weeks ago

The Guardian story is specific in that it has smoking guns , but lacking in hard proof of those smoking guns. 

Hopefully the investigation will continue and one day we will know it all. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
5.2.2  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Ozzwald @5.2    2 weeks ago

proof is only selectively required for some

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
5.2.3  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.1    2 weeks ago
Hopefully the investigation will continue and one day we will know it all.

That's just it, the Guardian was the 1st to come out with it.  That claim trumped any desire to keep investigating it.  But now that it is up, if it is true, we will start seeing other news agencies confirming or refuting it.

We all know FoxNews will refute it, without bothering to investigate, but there are many others that are willing to put in the effort to uncover the truth.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
5.2.4  Ozzwald  replied to  igknorantzrulz @5.2.2    2 weeks ago
proof is only selectively required for some

"selectively required"

Truer words were never spoken.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6  Drakkonis    2 weeks ago

Here we go again. How tedious. It seems about the only confirmation this "document" has is confirmation bias. People want it to be true so it must be true.  I wouldn't believe anything Russia puts out, even if they "leaked" a document claiming water was wet. It's kind of funny, though, that the basis for acceptance or rejection of some "evidence" is does it support or detract from one's personal view. 

This "document" wouldn't be allowed in a court of law. It isn't substantiated and I don't see how it ever could be. Not even if Putin himself claimed it was accurate and true, since because it's Putin, we can never know if he's telling the truth or is simply saying something because he believes it will gain him some future objective.

That's the idiocy to giving this "document" any credence. Regardless of how one feels about Trump, Russia is our enemy. They do not wish us well. They wish to bring us down so that they can fill the vacuum. This "leaked" document is most likely designed to do what it is most likely to do. Cause more unrest and discord among the American people. That's probably pointless to point out because, right here in America, we seem to have a large part of the country trying to tear America down ourselves. Many of them are right there in Congress. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @6    2 weeks ago
That's probably pointless to point out because, right here in America, we seem to have a large part of the country trying to tear America down ourselves.

I dont want to tear America down, but I do want to tear Trumpism down. They are not remotely the same thing. 

Its funny how "conservatives" believe that attacking Trump and trumpism is "tearing America down"  but somehow supporting a known liar, crook, bigot, moron, and cheat for 5 or 10 years is not "tearing America down". 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.1  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1    2 weeks ago
Its funny how "conservatives" believe that attacking Trump and trumpism is "tearing America down"  but somehow supporting a known liar, crook, bigot, moron, and cheat for 5 or 10 years is not "tearing America down". 

It's funny that you think my comment has anything to do with Trump whatsoever. The only mention of Trump I made was, whether you are for or against him doesn't matter. Russia is still untrustworthy. Even if I were for Trump and Russia "leaked" a "document" that actually benefitted Trump, I wouldn't believe the document. Neither would you. So, why do you think this document is different? Because it confirms what you want to be true? Even though everyone knows you can't trust anything Russian? 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @6.1.1    2 weeks ago

You use the word "document" in your first comment five times.  The document is entirely about Trump and Russias view of him and the 2016 election. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.3  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.2    2 weeks ago
You use the word "document" in your first comment five times.  The document is entirely about Trump and Russias view of him and the 2016 election. 

Yes, I can read, thanks. My comment has to do with the trustworthiness of the source. Putin is ex KGB. Games are his bread and butter. He tirelessly works to undermine the West, especially the United States. Nothing from Russia can be trusted. That they may say something that confirms one's biases isn't an excuse to give it credence. But, hey, knock yourself out if you want to. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.4  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @6.1.3    2 weeks ago

Trump has been claiming for five years that there was absolutely no reason to be concerned about Russia in terms of his candidacy in 2016.  This story, if true, would blow Trump's argument out of the water. 

It is worth continuing to investigate to the extent possible. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
6.1.5  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.4    2 weeks ago

Typical. Investigate the shit out of it simply to blow Trump's argument out of the water. What an accomplishment. What a goal. 

What are the ramifications, other than feeding your ego and hopes and dreams, could possibly come from that. Sounds like, if true, it was a one way proposition. Putin tried. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.6  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.4    2 weeks ago
It is worth continuing to investigate to the extent possible. 

Why? If you think investigating whether or not Russia is interfering is necessary, let me save you the trouble. Russia, the CCP, North Korea and Iran are always interfering. They are always hacking. They are always seeding discord in social media. They are doing everything they can to disrupt all that they can. They are always trying to manipulate public opinion every chance they get. Everywhere. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
6.1.7  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Drakkonis @6.1.6    2 weeks ago

Exactly jrSmiley_28_smiley_image.gif     jrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gif     jrSmiley_28_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.8  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @6.1.5    2 weeks ago

You have spent the last few years wondering why anyone would object to having a known liar, crook, bigot , moron and cheat be president of the United States. You even ask people what harm Trump has done to them personally to justify them opposing him. 

I dont think you have much credibility along these lines. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.9  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @6.1.6    2 weeks ago

There is a very specific dispute as to what role Russia played in the 2016 election and the rise of Trump to president. 

No one will force you to be interested in the topic. 

Since Trump intends to run for president again in 3 years we have every right and need to know what is going on between him and Putin. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
6.1.10  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.8    2 weeks ago
You even ask people what harm Trump has done to them personally to justify them opposing him.

And I never get a direct and cogent answer. Even from you except you don't like him personally. As for credibility. You have spent the last 6 years at least doing nothing but what you are doing again today. So your credibility is clouded by your feelings like most of the liberal persuasion. Searching for something, ANYTHING to bring him into the limelight. Well you and the MSM who all seem to STILL be enamored with the man so much as to keep him in that limelight. It's what got him elected in the first place. America loves the underdog. The constant beating that he took. You'd better hope history doesn't repeat itself in 2024. But with your constant barrage, even though the man is basically irrelevant today, you just may do it again. You and those of like mind.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.11  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.8    2 weeks ago
You have spent the last few years wondering why anyone would object to having a known liar, crook, bigot , moron and cheat be president of the United States. You even ask people what harm Trump has done to them personally to justify them opposing him. 

A complete and total fabrication on your part. It is an example of the process of what you hear and see goes through in your mind. That is, no matter what anyone says, if it isn't what you want to hear, you just file it away as some form of what you wrote above. 

What I have actually said over the last few years concerning Trump is that I think he's a narcissistic  ass hat but that his policies were better than what the Left wants to do with our country. 

Oops. Looks like you weren't talking to me. My bad. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.12  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @6.1.10    2 weeks ago

Every time you open your mouth you just prove what a lot of people think. 

The Chairman Of The Joint Chiefs Of Staff, the highest military officer in this country, is quoted in a new book saying that he feared Trump was planning a coup to keep himself in office last January. And General Milley was very familiar with the thinking of Donald Trump. 

You just won't stop and cut your losses. Trump was and is COMPLETELY unfit to hold any office in the United States of America, and there is no one that he is better than. No one. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.13  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @6.1.11    2 weeks ago
Oops. Looks like you weren't talking to me. My bad. 

Then I assume you will delete your comment. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.14  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.9    2 weeks ago
Since Trump intends to run for president again in 3 years we have every right and need to know what is going on between him and Putin. 

Haven't you already made up your mind about that years ago? That Trump colluded with Russia in spite of there being no evidence anyone is willing to take to court? I don't think you're trying to find out what's going on. I think you're trying to figure out a way to make it true, whether it is or isn't. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.15  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.13    2 weeks ago
Then I assume you will delete your comment. 

If you wish it, I will, but I don't want to be accused later of trying to hide my error. I figured it would be better to leave it up and own up to it. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.16  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @6.1.11    2 weeks ago
What I have actually said over the last few years concerning Trump is that I think he's a narcissistic  ass hat but that his policies were better than what the Left wants to do with our country. 

Donald Trump would have overthrown our democratic processes in a heartbeat to keep himself in power if he had been able to find enough people in authority to go along with him and make it work. 

I really dont care that you like his policies. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.17  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.12    2 weeks ago
The Chairman Of The Joint Chiefs Of Staff, the highest military officer in this country, is quoted in a new book saying that he feared Trump was planning a coup to keep himself in office last January. And General Milley was very familiar with the thinking of Donald Trump. 

Yeah. About that. In order to stage a coup you pretty much need the military to back you. Since this guy Milley was hardly going to back such a thing, or any other officer, what exactly was he afraid of? That Trump would appear on TV and declare himself President for Life? 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.18  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @6.1.17    2 weeks ago

People that go wishy washy on all this sound like fools. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
6.1.19  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.12    2 weeks ago
he feared Trump was planning a coup to keep himself in office last January

Don't be a fool because of Trump and your disdain for him FFS JR. He feared. Just how in the hell do you think Trump would have/could have accomplished this? By ordering the military to keep him in? Don't think that would have worked because there are other branches and people that would have to stand by him. He's a blowhard and you know it yet you hang on his every word. More so at times than even his most fervent followers Even Trump isn't that goddamned stupid.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.20  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.16    2 weeks ago
Donald Trump would have overthrown our democratic processes in a heartbeat to keep himself in power if he had been able to find enough people in authority to go along with him and make it work. 

Maybe he would have. Thing is, though, even an idiot knows practically the whole government, all three branches plus the military, would have had to support him for him to pull such a thing off. There is not the slightest chance that anything Trump may have been contemplating, which was mostly speculation made up by his enemies, would work, given the political realities extant at the time. The whole fever dream was nothing more than a ghost created by the left with which to scare the gullible. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.21  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.18    2 weeks ago
People that go wishy washy on all this sound like fools. 

No idea what you are referring to

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.22  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @6.1.19    2 weeks ago

You excuse everything Trump does or says , even when he was president, because you like the way he "owns the libs" (which is ridiculous in itself, pathological liars don't "own" anyone) .  

Trump supporters should be ashamed of themselves. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
6.1.23  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.22    2 weeks ago

That's what you don't understand John. I don't excuse it. I blow it off unless it has merit. I know what he is. I know what he did and does. Everyone in the country knew and knows what he is. Bluster. But damn it he was PotUS and a pretty damned good one. Not the greatest. Hell no. There won't be a PotUS in our lifetimes that will EVER get close to that status. But he did have the country in mind and do some good things in between tweets and the bluster. 

And own the libs had nothing to do with it although, he sure has lived rent free in your head for quite some time. And obviously still does.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.24  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @6.1.23    2 weeks ago

Trump is going to run for president again, unless he's dead or in prison. 

You gonna vote for him? 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
6.1.25  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Drakkonis @6.1.14    2 weeks ago
Haven't you already made up your mind about that years ago? That Trump colluded with Russia in spite of there being no evidence anyone is willing to take to court?

We know Trump asked for and welcomed Russian support, we know that there were dozens of high level contacts between Russian operatives and the Trump campaign, we know Trumps campaign manager gave highly sensitive polling data to a Russian agent, we know Trump's son said of offered dirt on Clinton from the Russians “If it’s what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer”, we know Russia hacked the DNC and released stolen emails that hurt Democrats during the election, coincidentally later the same day that the Hollywood Access bus tape was released, but apparently all of that isn't enough for Trump supporters to admit that Russia did in fact want Trump to be President and spent Russian resources to that end. In their deluded minds only a tape of Trump promising something in return for the help would then be able to be considered "collusion" so the illicit help we know about doesn't count because there's no tape of the quid-pro-quo.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.26  Drakkonis  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @6.1.25    2 weeks ago
...but apparently all of that isn't enough for Trump supporters to admit that Russia did in fact want Trump to be President and spent Russian resources to that end.

Russia wanting Trump to be president isn't collusion. Quid-pro-quo is. What would you have done had it been proven than China was backing Biden and spent Chinese resources to make that happen? What would you expect Biden to do? Back out of the race because of that alone? That would be great. Then, all any foreign power would have to do to influence any of our elections is make it obvious they are backing the candidate they don't actually want so they will step down. I mean, really, how do you see this working? 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
6.1.27  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Drakkonis @6.1.26    2 weeks ago
What would you have done had it been proven than China was backing Biden and spent Chinese resources to make that happen?

If China hacked the RNC and illegally released damaging emails during a campaign I would expect the Democrat candidate to at least condemn such tactics and denounce the election meddling and to repudiate China for their illicit aid and tell them it was not only unwanted, it was criminal and they should expect government actions whether they be sanctions or some other form of punishment for such actions during our elections. I would not expect the Democrat candidate to say during a campaign rally, "China, if you're listening, maybe you can find other dirt on our opponents and release it.".

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.1.28  Drakkonis  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @6.1.27    2 weeks ago

All very very nice, but you wouldn't consider it collusion and you wouldn't expect the candidate to back out of the race because of it. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
6.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Drakkonis @6    2 weeks ago
I wouldn't believe anything Russia puts out, even if they "leaked" a document claiming water was wet.

Funny how Trump and many of his supporters were previously willing to take the word of Putin over our own intelligence agencies.

Regardless of how one feels about Trump, Russia is our enemy. They do not wish us well. They wish to bring us down so that they can fill the vacuum.

Very true. And the fact is that while that statement is true, this memo could also be true. All the evidence points to Putin wanting to help Trump win the election because he knew that would create the most unrest and division in America that he could capitalize on, which is what he's tried to do. Now when it's in his best interest to create more division he leaks this document. He's like a weapons dealer selling guns to both sides to ensure their mutual destruction, but when he leaks the fact he was giving aid to Trump that doesn't mean he didn't, he's just weaponizing the truth.

This "leaked" document is most likely designed to do what it is most likely to do. Cause more unrest and discord among the American people.

Exactly, but again, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a fake.

we seem to have a large part of the country trying to tear America down ourselves

And they all seem to be the ones carrying water for the liar Donald Trump, who continue to lie about the 2020 election, attacked the capital on January 6th, and welcomed Russia's help during the 2016 election and even wore "I'd Rather be Russian than a Democrat" T-shirts to Trump rallies. If that's not a sick display of disloyalty to our nation and everything America stands for I don't know what is.

Dj8NurEW4AEZlgI.jpg

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @6.2    2 weeks ago

If you added the IQ's of the two in the russia t shirts I doubt you would hit triple digits. 

More people than we want to believe follow Trump because they are just plain stupid. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
6.2.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.1    2 weeks ago
More people than we want to believe follow Trump because they are just plain stupid. 

I think they likely empathize with Trump because they see themselves in him. As the Russians said about him, he's an “impulsive, mentally unstable and unbalanced individual who suffers from an inferiority complex” and I've no doubt those traits are shared with millions of his sycophantic followers.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
6.2.3  Ozzwald  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @6.2.2    2 weeks ago
As the Russians said about him, he's an “impulsive, mentally unstable and unbalanced individual who suffers from an inferiority complex” and I've no doubt those traits are shared with millions of his sycophantic followers.

Trump allows his followers to blame someone else for their own perceived inferiorities.  Remember, nothing is ever Trump's fault, and he never takes responsibility for anything.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Senior Guide
6.2.4  Drakkonis  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @6.2    2 weeks ago
Funny how Trump and many of his supporters were previously willing to take the word of Putin over our own intelligence agencies.

I don't answer for what someone else does or doesn't do. Anything Putin says I assume to be a lie of some kind, no matter what. 

Exactly, but again, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a fake.

Which doesn't really get us anywhere, does it? 

And they all seem to be the ones carrying water for the liar Donald Trump...

Not in my opinion. That is, not all those who seem to be trying to tear down this country can be laid at Trump's feet. The Left has plenty of people of its own who are working just as hard at it. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
6.2.5  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Drakkonis @6.2.4    2 weeks ago

I seem to remember a PotUS that ran on and pursued "fundamentally changing America". To fundamentally change anything, one must first tear it down. Thank God that didn't happen............didn't have enough time or believers in that theory.

 
 
 
GregTx
Sophomore Silent
6.2.6  GregTx  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @6.2.5    2 weeks ago

It's still a work in progress apparently.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
6.2.7  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @6.2.5    2 weeks ago
To fundamentally change anything, one must first tear it down.

So you are saying that when we fundamentally changed the décor in our house and remodeled, we actually tore it all down 1st?  Funny, I don't remember that part.

I remember taking down certain pieces of the wall, but not tearing down the whole wall.  Same with the floor, when we put in hard wood floors, we didn't have to tear down all the floors first.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
6.2.8  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @6.2.7    2 weeks ago

Did you not completely change the look of your home in that particular room? Your example is sophomoric at best.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
6.2.9  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @6.2.8    2 weeks ago
Did you not completely change the look of your home in that particular room?

Yes we did, but we did not tear it down first.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
7  igknorantzrulz    2 weeks ago

Soory for wasting my time reading the Defenses some believe carry any actual weight, when they defend Trump, and Emphasise how little his VIOLATIONS OF SO MANY NORMS< ontop of SO MANY BLATANT FCKN LIES , they feel are affecting US, as in the UNUNITED STATES  deep in DENILE, cause Trump fit that analysis of he to the T, an insecure puppy girl, easily manipulated due to hardly a word of praise can Trump ever let not, cause phaser on stun, to become photon torpedoes for EVERY ONE, stupid enuff to believe this shooting blanks at stairs he's uable to climb due to being shy about not having eyes to C the buttons zipped on the lowered  elevator door, that had risen from the stares tripped upon down off 10

 
 
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