George W. Bush's dreadful 9/11 speech

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  vic-eldred  •  one week ago  •  94 comments

By:   Byron York (MSN)

George W. Bush's dreadful 9/11 speech
President Joe Biden was silent during Saturday's 9/11 commemoration events. So were former Presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton. Former President Donald Trump visited a New York City police precinct and fire station, where he made a few impromptu remarks.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



President Joe Biden was silent during Saturday's 9/11 commemoration events. So were former Presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton. Former President Donald Trump visited a New York City police precinct and fire station, where he made a few impromptu remarks.

The only president who delivered a formal speech on 9/11 was former President George W. Bush. And it was terrible.

In two ways. First, Bush's speech was as much about decrying today's political divisions as it was about remembering the events of Sept. 11. But Bush showed an astonishing lack of self-awareness of the role his own actions played in creating those divisions. And second, Bush helped widen those divisions by endorsing a Rachel Maddow-esque argument that an equivalence exists between the plane-hijacking, murderous terrorists of Sept. 11, 2001, and the Capitol rioters of Jan. 6, 2021 — a comparison that has no basis in fact but has done much to sour the national debate.

Bush spoke at ceremonies for Flight 93 in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. It was the site of perhaps the most heroic of many heroic acts by Americans on Sept. 11. The passengers who fought back against the hijackers sacrificed their own lives to save the victims the terrorists were targeting. In the process, they likely also saved the Capitol, or perhaps the White House, from attack.

Bush praised their courage. He praised the courage of Americans who volunteered for the armed forces in the years that followed. And he praised the selflessness of Americans who helped one another at the time. There was great unity in that moment, Bush said. "In the weeks and months following the 9/11 attacks, I was proud to lead an amazing, resilient, united people," Bush said. But now, those days seem far, far away, and a "malign force" is at work in American life:

When it comes to the unity of America, those days seem distant from our own. A malign force seems at work in our common life that turns every disagreement into an argument and every argument into a clash of cultures. So much of our politics has become a naked appeal to anger, fear, and resentment. That leaves us worried about our nation and our future together.

How could our politics have become so angry? Bush pointed to one reason, in the briefest way possible, just a moment earlier. Hailing Americans who joined the armed forces, he added, "The military measures taken over the last 20 years to pursue dangers at their source have led to debate." Well, yes they have! But rather than elaborate, even a little, Bush instead went on to assure veterans that their service was not in vain.

What Bushed skipped was, first, his failures in the war in Afghanistan, and second, his failures in the war in Iraq. In Afghanistan, Bush failed to find and bring to justice Osama bin Laden, Ayman al Zawahiri, and Mullah Omar. And with the major 9/11 player Bush did capture, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Bush failed to deliver justice through a military commission trial and execution. The architect of 9/11 remains alive and well today, imprisoned at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Also in Afghanistan, Bush set the war on a track of nation-building that was sure to fail and did, not only during Bush's presidency but during Obama's and Trump's, until Biden clumsily put an end to it.

In Iraq, Bush started a major war by mistake. He will always maintain that in the big picture it was the right thing to do, but in his memoir, Bush admitted that he remains troubled by what he did. "The reality was that I had sent American troops into combat based in large part on intelligence that proved false," Bush wrote. "I had a sickening feeling every time I thought about it. I still do." The war in Iraq resulted in the deaths of 4,431 American military men and women, with 31,994 wounded.

These were terrible and enormously divisive developments. They helped shape presidential campaigns in 2004, 2008, 2012, 2016, and 2020. Opposition to the war in Iraq became a litmus test for Democratic candidates. Along with the devastating economic collapse at the end of Bush's second term, the war left the Republican Party troubled and without direction until Trump improbably won the GOP presidential nomination by breaking with the war support of predecessors Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney.

But in Shanksville, Bush spoke as if there had been a period of post-9/11 unity that lasted until somehow, mysteriously, the unity disappeared and gave way to today's poisoned politics.

Bush's second jaw-dropper was his oblique comparison of the 19 terrorists who hijacked four commercial jetliners on 9/11 with the rioters who descended on the Capitol on Jan. 6. Speaking of 9/11, Bush said, "Many Americans struggled to understand why an enemy would hate us with such zeal." Then:

And we have seen growing evidence that the dangers to our country can come not only across borders, but from violence that gathers within. There is little cultural overlap between violent extremists abroad and violent extremists at home. But in their disdain for pluralism, in their disregard for human life, in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit. And it is our continuing duty to confront them.

Bush did not explicitly say so, but he appeared to be referencing Jan. 6. And he used the rhetorical trick of denying that there was "cultural overlap" between the 9/11 terrorists and the Jan. 6 rioters before outlining areas of such overlap. They were similar in their "disdain for pluralism," Bush said, their "disregard for human life," and their "determination to defile national symbols." In these, Bush argued, not only was there cultural overlap between the two groups — they actually came from "the same foul spirit."

With that, Bush joined a group of commentators, mostly but not entirely on the left, who maintain that 9/11 and 1/6 are similar. And they do so in the face of the obvious, enormous differences between the two. The Sept. 11 attacks killed roughly 3,000 people, brought down New York's tallest skyscrapers, destroyed part of the Pentagon, crashed four passenger jetliners, resulted in two wars, and changed U.S. foreign policy for decades. The Jan. 6 riot led to the natural-causes death of one Capitol Police officer, the shooting death of one rioter at the hands of police, the "acute amphetamine intoxication" death of another rioter, and the natural-causes deaths of two more. Had the 9/11 attackers survived, they would have been charged with mass murder. Most of the Jan. 6 rioters have been charged with "Parading, Demonstrating, or Picketing in a Capitol Building." Parts of the Capitol were ransacked, but not seriously enough that Congress could not meet and finish its election certification work on the night of the riot. The riot was appalling, and the participants deserve punishment, but it was simply nothing like Sept. 11. To visualize the difference, imagine that on the night of the 9/11 attacks, there was a convention that went on as scheduled at the World Trade Center.

The bottom line: There is simply no comparison in scale, act, motivation, or anything else between Sept. 11 and Jan. 6. And yet now, a former president suggests that those two enormously dissimilar events were actually similar, both coming from "the same foul spirit."

In its style, Bush's brief Shanksville speech — it ran less than ten minutes — resembled some of the most memorable of his presidency. In public, Bush could be embarrassingly inarticulate off-the-cuff, but during his White House years, he delivered a few set-piece speeches, often penned by senior aide Michael Gerson, that soared in rhetoric and ambition. In Shanksville, Bush's words did not soar, but they had a quality similar to his older speeches.

Despite his failures, Bush will always deserve credit for preventing another 9/11-style attack on the United States. In the 2016 campaign, defending his brother from attacks by Trump, former Gov. Jeb Bush said simply that George W. Bush "kept us safe." That was no small accomplishment, even in a presidency beset by disasters, some of which were created by the president himself.

And now, the press-shy former president is back in the news. At least in the short run, the Shanksville speech could become one of Bush's most quoted. Democrats will certainly cite it and press Republicans to agree with the Republican former president. Trump supporters will denounce it. But everyone should read it to learn how a former president sees not only his time in office 20 years on but the events he helped shape, whether he wants to face them or not.


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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    one week ago

I just couldn't let this pass.  The GOP is saddled with this self destructive, mass of contradictions who began the federal deficit monster that can never be rectified. 

How could he compare 9/11 with 1/6 ?   Is he really that stupid?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    one week ago

How can people compare Biden's anthill of lies with Trump's mountain of lies ?  Are they really that stupid?

This is evidently the offending passage

They were similar in their "disdain for pluralism," Bush said, their "disregard for human life," and their "determination to defile national symbols." In these, Bush argued, not only was there cultural overlap between the two groups — they actually came from "the same foul spirit."

disdain for pluralism

check. A University of Chicago study in April concluded that white grievance was a major motivator for the Jan 6 riot. Fear of "replacement" by non whites, a conspiracy theory, was identified as the single greatest signifier for participation in the Jan6 event. 

disregard for human life

obviously the Jan 6 event was on a completely different scale than Sep 11, but the rioters at the Capitol fought against the police in a way that could have easily led to a mass casualty situation. There were also pipe bombs planted as part of the attack. 

determination to defile national symbols

smashing windows and doors at the national legislature is definitely a defilement of national symbols, as is carrying a confederate flag through the halls of the Capitol building, and standing at the podium in the US Senate chamber and spouting conspiracy garbage.

the same foul spirit.

"the same foul spirit" can cover a lot of ground. a punch to the nose can come from the same foul spirit as a car bombing. 

-

Bush said nothing wrong. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
1.1.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    one week ago

The same applies to the BLM riots. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.1    one week ago

The same applies to the BLM riots. 

17b168a7-35af-48a1-93f4-9d3d236c46fb-whataboutism-300x300.png

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
1.1.3  Sparty On  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.2    one week ago

A whataboutism about whataboutism.

Classic

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.4  Ozzwald  replied to  Sparty On @1.1.3    one week ago
A whataboutism about whataboutism.

I think you need to reread the definition again.  You seem confused about it.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
1.1.5  Sparty On  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.4    one week ago
You seem confused about it.

Nope, not at all.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.6  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    one week ago
This is evidently the offending passage

No, John, the offending passage was highlighted in the article.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    one week ago
Is he really that stupid?

yup, always has been. looks like it's time to repair the family legacy, since the family dynasty ended 5 years ago. no place to go but up, now that he has been relieved of the title of worst president in US history by trump. having a cast of rogue nixon era relics in his inner circle was his biggest failure as POTUS. thankfully, most are dead now.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
1.2.1  Ronin2  replied to  devangelical @1.2    one week ago

Sorry, Biden already laid claim to worst President ever in just 8 short months. 

Deal with it.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.2.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.1    one week ago
Biden already laid claim to worst President ever in just 8 short months. 

Ridiculous. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.3  Tessylo  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.1    one week ago

Nope, the worst 'president' in history waddled out of the White House on 1/20/21.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
1.2.4  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.2    one week ago
Ridiculous. 

Not as ridiculous as your non-stop spin doctoring the last five years

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.5  Tessylo  replied to  Sparty On @1.2.4    one week ago

No spinning involved or needed.  

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
1.2.6  cjcold  replied to  Tessylo @1.2.5    one week ago

Every idiotic lie that Trump has told is on video. How does one spin that?

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2  Sparty On    one week ago
Sept. 11, 2001, and the Capitol rioters of Jan. 6, 2021

Making that comparison is, by definition, a false equivalence.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @2    one week ago

really? what "definition" pray tell? 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
2.1.1  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1    one week ago

No matter how much you milk the issue searching for some kind of relevance, the two events were not equivalent

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Greg Jones @2.1.1    one week ago
And we have seen growing evidence that the dangers to our country can come not only across borders, but from violence that gathers within. There is little cultural overlap between violent extremists abroad and violent extremists at home. But in their disdain for pluralism, in their disregard for human life, in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit. And it is our continuing duty to confront them.

Please point out the words in that paragraph that are declaring an equivalence. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.3  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1    one week ago

The one in ANY dictionary when read without a TDS triggered, hyper biased mind.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.4  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.3    one week ago

Terrorism. International and domestic terrorism is what Bush discussed. And I am tired of right-wing apologists smoke-screening the issue.

Point blank: Do you think the January 6, 2021 incident at the Capitol in D.C. was an act of patriotism or insurrection?

Answer the question directly or just 'tap-dance'!

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.5  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.4    one week ago

The liberal mind is such a strange place.   So angry, so biased, so kooky, so disconnected.   If other peoples opinions bother you so much i suggest you not frequent discussion sites like this where people voice their opinions all day long.   That said:

Do you think the January 6, 2021 incident at the Capitol in D.C. was an act of patriotism or insurrection?

Neither but if those are the only two choices it's much closer Patriotism than Insurrection IMO.   I recall another little incident in 1776 where the powers that be called it an insurrection but is considered an extreme act of patriotism by anyone but the most triggered liberal.   That said and again, neither.

Now answer my question.  

Do you consider all the acts of rioting, looting, violence and destruction of property by groups like blm and antifa in the summer of 2020 to be acts of patriotism or simple acts of criminal activity?   Just like your question you only have two choices.   Answer the question.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.6  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.5    one week ago

Antifa and BLM could have committed criminal acts in which they should be in jail already. I don't give a damn about violent protest that results in people going to jail justifiably.

As for your reply to my question:  Gotcha! The "people's capitol" is not your run of the mill business or corporation for that matter, if it was then we would not be looking to it for national leadership (and expenditure of billions of dollars as well as tax collection and law making) we would focus our attention elsewhere; that you attempt in vain to cover 1/6/2021 foolishness with a whataboutism says a great more about you.

You won't be "smothering" anything this time, though!

I see you, Sparty On. One privileged dude speaking up for other privileged dudes and dudettes. Do you follow my drift? Your white privilege card is just flashing like a railroad crossing signal!

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.7  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.6    one week ago

Nah, like usual, you gots nothing.   Nothing!

I've "tried" to cover for nothing, i've tried to "smother" nothing, you see "nothing" of consequence here as you try to spin another web of disinformation and lies.

I can simply this for you.   You're just another dude looking for a free lunch.

Nothing more.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.8  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.5    one week ago

www.nytimes.com   /2021/04/06/us/politics/capitol-riot-study.html

Fears of White People Losing Out Permeate Capitol Rioters’ Towns, Study Finds

Alan Feuer 6-8 minutes   4/6/2021


Counties with the most significant declines in the non-Hispanic white population were the most likely to be homes to people who stormed the Capitol.

April 6, 2021

When the political scientist Robert Pape began studying the issues that motivated the 380 or so people arrested in connection with the attack against the Capitol on Jan. 6, he expected to find that the rioters were driven to violence by the lingering effects of the 2008 Great Recession.

But instead he found something very different:

Most of the people who took part in the assault came from places, his polling and demographic data showed, that were awash in fears that the rights of minorities and immigrants were crowding out the rights of white people in American politics and culture.

If Mr. Pape’s initial conclusions — published on Tuesday   in The Washington Post   — hold true, they would suggest that the Capitol attack has historical echoes reaching back to before the Civil War, he said in an interview over the weekend. In the shorter term, he added, the study would appear to connect Jan. 6 not only to the once-fringe right-wing theory called the Great Replacement, which holds that minorities and immigrants are seeking to take over the country, but also to events like the   far-right rally in Charlottesville, Va.,   in 2017 where crowds of white men marched with torches chanting, “Jews will not replace us!”

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.9  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.5    one week ago
Neither but if those are the only two choices it's much closer Patriotism than Insurrection IMO.   I recall another little incident in 1776 where the powers that be called it an insurrection but is considered an extreme act of patriotism by anyone but the most triggered liberal. 

What was this "patriotism" based on? Where is ANY evidence that the 2020 presidential election was stolen?  Any? 

The entire purpose of the event Jan 6 was to "stop the steal". What steal? 

Patriotism? LOL . A bunch of racist jagoffs. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.10  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.8    one week ago

It's been over 600 people arrested - over 600 domestic terrorist scum.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.11  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.8    one week ago

So what?   You should stop trying to paint small flowers with a roller brush John.

That is a fools errand as well

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.12  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.9    one week ago

The only real joke here are the people who are calling it an insurrection.

Total joke

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.13  Tessylo  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.12    one week ago

That's exactly what it was.  

The total joke is those who deny it.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.14  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.12    one week ago

You are just babbling. I dont really give a damn what people call it. They went there intending to stop the steal by intimidating the Congress.  What "steal"?   You have no damn answer for that. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.15  JohnRussell  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.10    one week ago

The study was done in April and used the number that had been arrested at that time. 

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Principal
2.1.16  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.12    one week ago

If chants of hanging the Vice President, beating law enforcement nearly to death, the erection of gallows, and teams of sleazebags roaming the halls of Congress with wrist restraints isn’t considered an insurrection, then you must have some seriously warped ideas of what is.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.17  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.14    one week ago

Nah, what is babbling to you is just another opinion.   Something you clearly have difficulty with here.

Nothing new there.   Some liberals just seem to have a need to hammer all opposing viewpoints

Which is really just a very chronic inferiority complex  .... nothing more.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.18  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.17    one week ago
Some liberals just seem to have a need to hammer all opposing viewpoints

Tell me what this opposing viewpoint is.  Can you do that?  

We had an election , certified by all 50 states. Not a shred of credible evidence that the election was "stolen" was presented. Prior to Jan 6 , Trump had lost 60 court cases related to the election. The state electors had made their report to Congress. 

BUT because Trump continued to cry and whine and rant about it, 50,000 people showed up at the Capitol building on Jan 6. 

What the fuck were they doing there? Its a simple question I expect you to be able to answer. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.19  Tessylo  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @2.1.16    one week ago

These scum also shit and pissed there too.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.20  Sparty On  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @2.1.16    one week ago

Sounds scary.    How did this country survive such harrowing, hardcore threat to it's survival?   How indeed ........

Certainly not from AOC who lied about here whereabouts during the riot on Jan 6th.

Jan 6th "insurrection" is just another liberal dog whistle.   Nothing more..

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.21  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.20    one week ago

Why were the rioters even at the Capitol on Jan 6 ? 

Racism.

Conspiracy theories.

Cult worship of Trump. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.22  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.18    one week ago

I'm sure this is a complete waste of time but i'll make one pass at it.

Tell me what this opposing viewpoint is.  Can you do that?

That it wasn't an insurrection.   It was a riot of pissed off people.   Just like the hundreds, possibly thousands of organized riots that happened all over the country during the summer of 2020.   Most of which got a total free pass from the mass media and the left.   Unlike Jan 6th.

  

We had an election , certified by all 50 states. Not a shred of credible evidence that the election was "stolen" was presented. Prior to Jan 6 , Trump had lost 60 court cases related to the election. The state electors had made their report to Congress.

This is an easy one.   If there wasn't a problem with election fraud.   Why did the left fight truly "independent" investigations into election fraud in 2020.   And make no mistake, few of any truly "independent" investigations into the 2020 election occurred.   Certainly you can give me a good answer to why that was?   You can do that right?   Right or wrong many people questioned the election and congress could have quelled at lot of that angst by simply allowing independent investigations into the same.   They chose not to do that and got what they got because of it.   Simple.

 

BUT because Trump continued to cry and whine and rant about it, 50,000 people showed up at the Capitol building on Jan 6. 

What the fuck were they doing there? Its a simple question I expect you to be able to answer.

50,000 people?    50,000?   Lets put this into perspective.   50,000, that's say 1000 people per state show up to protest the election.   Most of whom were reportedly peaceful like many protests but regardless, about 2/100th's of the US population shows up at the capital to protest and the protest turns violent.   Imagine that.   We watched that happen hundreds if not thousands of times in 2020 alone.

They were there to protest John.   Simple answer to a simple question.   Now i sit back to watch you spin your yarn.   Enjoy it as i might for the creative writing it will undoubtedly be, it's doubtful i'll agree with much of it at all so i leave you to your normal devices.

 

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.23  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.21    one week ago
Why were the rioters even at the Capitol on Jan 6 ? 

Nah, most were there just to protest.

That you don't like their reasons to protest is absolutely meaningless.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.24  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.22    one week ago
It was a riot of pissed off people. 

Pissed off about what? 

Please quote Donald Trump asking for an "independent" investigation into anything. Donald Trump literally wanted Republican state legislatures in swing states to unilaterally declare him the winner of the election. 

And why should there be independent investigations of elections, based on conspiracy theories? It is ludicrous. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.25  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.24    one week ago

I can't explain it any simpler John but you keep spinning your yarn.

I've said everything i need to say here on this topic.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.26  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.25    one week ago

What you say is woefully inadequate. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.27  Tessylo  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.23    one week ago

They were there at trumpturd's incitement of his mob.

Now the BLM protests - were mostly protests - those who looted and vandalized were not protesters - they were criminals.  

That also doesn't take into account all the outside agitators/instigators from the alt-right at the protests.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.28  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.26    one week ago

Right back at ya buddy.   Right back at ya

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.29  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.26    one week ago

Just like everything else.  

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
2.1.30  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.27    one week ago
from the alt-right at the protests. 

Damn just when I thought you popped back into reality you had to add this.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.31  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.7    one week ago

Pathetic insult noted.

Sparty On, let me ask a follow-up question inquiring minds would like to know:

Would you think the January 6, 2021 incident at the Capitol in D.C. had it been carried out by ANTIFA OR BLM an act of patriotism or insurrection or both or neither?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.32  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.12    one week ago
@ 2.1.5 Sparty On   replied to  CB @ 2.1.4  
Do you think the January 6, 2021 incident at the Capitol in D.C. was an act of patriotism or insurrection?
Neither but if those are the only two choices it's much closer Patriotism than Insurrection IMO.   

Well Sparty On, you've gotten yourself caught in a 'thicket' here.

@ 2.1.5 you replied to my question (along with a piggy-backed weak insult)— "Neither." Meaning it was not patriotism or insurrection. Today, you say its a "total joke" to call it an insurrection.

Care to get your untrue narrative straight, please. I'll wait . .  . .

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.33  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.20    one week ago

Partisan hackery on full display.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.34  CB   replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.26    one week ago

Sparty On knows this is "UNSAT." It's like watching someone squirming to keep their job by toeing the line with pat answers and personal insults. (Mustn't neglect to read and mention the insults.)

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.35  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.33    one week ago

Nope, far from it.   You are wrong again.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.36  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.34    one week ago

Stop trying to put words in my mouth.  

You accomplish nothing but making yourself and your advisors look even more sophomoric.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.37  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.32    one week ago
Well Sparty On, you've gotten yourself caught in a 'thicket' here.

Only in your mind CB and well, in the minds of some of your advisors.

Neither of which do i care the slightest about.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.38  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.37    one week ago

Yeah, that's sputtering. And yes, caught red-handed acting as a partisan hack with a toxic perspective.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.39  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.36    one week ago

More weak insults. It's all me, S O.  You might need me to have advisors, but it is just me, reading, writing, and a computer. As for the rest of whatever you wrote: you're stalling. Do take time to get your untrue narrative straight about 1/6/2021 patriotism or insurrection.

Still waiting. . . .

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.40  CB   replied to  CB @2.1.31    one week ago

You may have missed this in an effort to move one. Here's a friendly reminder:

Well Sparty On? What say you?!

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.41  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.38    one week ago

Nope

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.42  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.39    one week ago

Nope again

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.43  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.40    one week ago

You can move on any time you want.

I'll move on when i chose to move on .... or not.

Your sophomoric insulting style is amusing at some more basic level .....

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.44  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.43    one week ago

Please, you're manipulating yourself at this point! That is not any kind of direct answer to the question asked point blank. I know why you can't answer it, because your answer would condemn you (only to your "colleagues") one way or another.

Here it is' front and center' yet again:

Would you think the January 6, 2021 incident at the Capitol in D.C. had it been carried out by ANTIFA OR BLM an act of patriotism or insurrection or both or neither?

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.45  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.44    one week ago
Please, you're manipulating yourself at this point!

Nope, you're still all wrong

And your line of questioning is still deliciously sophomoric.   You think you've "caught me" here already when you really haven't.   You think you're going to "catch me" with this latest question.   You aren't so i'll pop your bubble right here and now and we can be done with this rambling mess of a conversation if one can call it that.

Never once have i defended the unlawful actions of Jan 6th.   Never once did i defend the unlawful actions of antifa or blm throughout the summer of 2020.   I support lawful, peaceful protests.   I don't support unlawful violent protests.   That is an all encompassing statements made without any exclusions or reservations.   It applies equally to everyone regardless of race color, creed or location of protest in the USA.

So there you go CB, you have a nice day now ya hear!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.46  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.45    one week ago

All talk and chatter. You did not answer the question!

Would you think the January 6, 2021 incident at the Capitol in D.C. had it been carried out by ANTIFA OR BLM an act of patriotism or insurrection or both or neither?

Simple: Try again.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.47  Texan1211  replied to  CB @2.1.46    one week ago
I support lawful, peaceful protests.   I don't support unlawful violent protests.   That is an all encompassing statements made without any exclusions or reservations.   It applies equally to everyone regardless of race color, creed or location of protest in the USA.

There is your answer---AGAIN.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.48  CB   replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.47    one week ago

Bye.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.49  Texan1211  replied to  CB @2.1.48    one week ago

BUH-BYE!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.50  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.5    one week ago
@2.1.5
Do you think the January 6, 2021 incident at the Capitol in D.C. was an act of patriotism or insurrection?

Neither. but if those are the only two choices it's much closer [to] Patriotism than Insurrection IMO. 

|
@2.1.45 Never once have i defended the unlawful actions of Jan 6th.  

January 6, 2021 incident was much closer to patriotism you wrote, Sparty On.  There you've said it! You've called the capitol offenders "patriots" and their act "unlawful."

"Unlawful patriots."

Stop tap-dancing and commit to a proper answer. Patriots do not commit unlawful acts, Sparty On. (Unless, you are invoking special privilege for the offenders. What kind of privilege would that be I wonder?)

We see you.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.51  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.45    one week ago

And to be clear, as I don't want to put words in your mouth, do you wish to be clear?  Can I safely take for granted if ANTIFA or BLM had carried out the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol in D.C. you would consider ANTIFA and BLM patriots?!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.52  Texan1211  replied to  CB @2.1.51    one week ago
I support lawful, peaceful protests.   I don't support unlawful violent protests.   That is an all encompassing statements made without any exclusions or reservations.   It applies equally to everyone regardless of race color, creed or location of protest in the USA.

From Sparty On, post 2.1.45

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.53  CB   replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.52    one week ago

Sorry, "Door #2.  My questions are specially for and to Sparty On! I do think it rather "sophomoric" that it is a team effort to carry his 'load,' nevertheless. I'm over here carrying all my loads myself! Getting stronger all the time too!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.54  Texan1211  replied to  CB @2.1.53    one week ago

Repeatedly asking the same questions which have been answered over and over and over again must be a heavy load for you to bear.

I'd stop if I were you.

What I managed to garner from his statement is that he is for lawful, peaceful protests no matter who is doing it, and against violent, unlawful protests no matter who is doing it. No politics about that. No racial implications in that. No class distinctions made in that.

Pretty damn hard work trying to convince anyone he meant something different unless you are reading something different than what is posted here.

Is that what you are doing?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.55  CB   replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.54    one week ago

Why are you trolling me? I do not accept any response from you on behalf of Sparty On. Is that clear enough?!!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.56  Texan1211  replied to  CB @2.1.55    one week ago

I will leave you with the facts I provided to you.

Hopefully, they will have some impact at some point in time.

Toodles!

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
2.1.57  Sparty On  replied to  CB @2.1.53    one week ago

Don't be sorry, be thankful that another member pointed out the error of your comment that i didn't answer your question.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.58  CB   replied to  Sparty On @2.1.57    one week ago

You have answered nothing and at this point it is obvious that you don't plan too. Nice try, having team members play intercept. Apparently, simple direct questions require sponsorship.

Anyway. I can see you so clear now that it's like you are an open book to me. I will read and study well.

No, had either or both ANTIFA OR BLM scaled and sacked the Capitol building - you would  not and do not consider either group as patriots.

So cut the bull patty and 'damage control' speak on NT. Technically, you're among online friends here; being untruthful is not something we require. "Speak Your Mind!" See? 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
3  Greg Jones    one week ago

Yes, Bush is that stupid. He's nothing but a war criminal.

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Principal
3.1  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Greg Jones @3    one week ago

I don’t disagree.  However, Donald Trump was the best thing to ever happen to him, since Trump makes Dubya look positively brilliant.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4  JohnRussell    one week ago

I didnt say they were equivalent, and neither did Bush. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
5  Ronin2    one week ago

Bush is like Carter. Both were really nice guys that wanted to please everyone; neither were strong enough individuals and leaders to be good presidents. Both were also easily manipulated by stronger willed individuals within their administrations.

I think Bush really regrets some of the decisions he made in his presidency; and has tried to make amends. He has also been a very good ex-President (to bad he had to be President to get that title); again like Carter.

That being said; Bush is not (and never has been) a strong speaker. He could just have easily been talking about BLM and Antifa rioters as the Jan 6th rioters. The TDS sufferers are quick to draw the line between Bush's comments and the Jan 6th rioters; while completely excluding their side which has done the exact same thing. Destroyed federal property; assaulted and injured federal officers; and threatened/intimidated politicians.  

Bush should do us all a favor and stay out of the political realm; and concentrate solely on helping injured veterans. All he has managed to do is deepen the divisions in this country and given Pelosi and the Democrats more ammunition in their highly partisan Jan 6th investigation.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.1  devangelical  replied to  Ronin2 @5    one week ago
while completely excluding their side which has done the exact same thing

name the BLM and antifa members that breached the US Capitol building and tried to obstruct the constitutionally mandated certification of a presidential election by a joint session of congress.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
5.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  devangelical @5.1    one week ago

How about the BLM and Antifa members that have destroyed federal property; assaulted federal officers; and threatened politicians? Which is what I mentioned. They obviously don't count in leftist land.

Reading is fundamental.

As hundreds of protesters gathered Monday outside a condo building where the mayor lives in the upscale Pearl District of Portland, Ore., some set off fireworks, sprayed graffiti and broke windows. After someone tossed a burning object inside, police pushed the crowd away and made 19 arrests.

The next day, Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler (D) sent a letter to his neighbors letting them know he planned to move out of his $840,000 condo in response to a string of protests targeting the building,   the Oregonian reported .

“I want to express my sincere apologies for the damage to our home and the fear that you are experiencing due to my position,” he said in the letter, according to the newspaper. He said the move would be “best for me and for everyone else’s safety and peace.”

He’s not the only elected official leaving home in response to demonstrations that have increasingly targeted public officials where they live, including the Democratic mayors of   Chicago ,   Seattle ,   Pittsburgh   and   St. Louis .

That is just Portland. There are far more examples out there across the US. Google is your friend.

There is are two big differences between BLM/Antifa and the Jan 6th rioters. The Jan 6th rioters left on their own accord; it was a one off event. BLM and and Antifa never go away. Look up how many consecutive days BLM/Antifa rioted it Portland and Seattle.  How long were several city blocks in Seattle taken over by those so called "mostly peaceful protesters"?

Also, the Jan 6th protesters are being held for months w/o charges being filed. They are being hunted down by the federal government, left, and media. And they are going to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Unlike the BLM/Antifa rioters that are being released w/o charges by the POS partisan DOJ.  Nice two tier justice system the Biden administration has going on. It really exemplifies what this country stands for./S

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
5.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @5.1    one week ago

The really sad thing about that comment is you really appear to believe Jan 6th was worse than an entire summer of rioting, looting, threatening behavior, destruction of public/private property, etc happening all over the country.

Very sad .....

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.1.3  Tessylo  replied to  Sparty On @5.1.2    one week ago

Very sad and pathetic and deplorable that all you have is whataboutism and projection, deflection, and denial.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.4  CB   replied to  Tessylo @5.1.3    one week ago

And gaslighting. He who gaslights a lot.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
6  Sean Treacy    one week ago

I don't think there's anything particularly objectionable to what Bush said.  The January 6th riot and all of the rioting, looting and murdering that took place during the BLM riots of 2020 were toxic, stupid behavior.  There's no place for it.  Bush erred in bringing it up on 9/11. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Senior Principal
7  Nerm_L    one week ago

Why are people still trying to defend neo-liberalism?  Neo-liberalism is why we're in this mess.  Pluralism, nation building, and amoral profiteering is not a foundation upon which to build 'unity' or, even, civility.

Somehow these neo-liberal apologists are confusing national resolve following the Sept. 11 attacks with 'unity' (whatever that means).  The United States was united in a single purpose -- find those responsible and bring them to justice, alive or dead.  The United States did not go into Afghanistan on a mission of benevolent charity.  But the political lies began before the search commenced.  Our national resolve to seek justice depended upon a 'coalition of the willing'.  Neo-liberals hijacked our national resolve in pursuit of their owned flawed ideological goals and proceeded to badly divide the country.  Americans became the enemy of political government.  Political government is so distrusted that conspiracies began to emerge in quick order.  And the last 20 years have only affirmed that distrust in political government is warranted.

Disunity begins in Washington D.C.  That's what the riot on Jan. 6 was about.  The riot did not threaten or attack the people of the United States.  The riot threatened political government that is responsible for disunity in the United States.  

Neo-liberalism is as complete a failure as is socialism.  George W. Bush may doublespeak all he wishes but there's no hiding that neo-liberalism cannot and will not work.  The Bush administration compared Americans to terrorists for eight years to defend neo-liberal policies, priorities, and misadventures.  'You're either with us or against us' is not a message of unity or resolve.  And serving freedom fries to malign the French was deliberately intended to be divisive.  At least George Bush is consistent.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
7.1  Sparty On  replied to  Nerm_L @7    one week ago

Post of the day so far.  

Spot on!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  Sparty On @7.1    one week ago

Not at all.  

It's his usual nonsense.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.2  Tessylo  replied to  Nerm_L @7    one week ago

Speaking of doublespeak and outright nonsense and gibberish.  

 
 
 
JumpDrive
Freshman Silent
7.3  JumpDrive  replied to  Nerm_L @7    one week ago

A nonsensical deflection. Neo-liberalism is largely the economic policy of free market capitalism. January 6th was the result of two things (1) the Republican 25 year project cultivating a base of obsequious coprohagists; people who will eat up any bullshit Republicans feed them. And (2), the continuous pushing of the Big Lie that his election was stolen by the most corrupt President we have ever had.

The disunity evidenced by January 6th was caused by Trump’s Big Lie and the politicians who supported it. The Big Lie should have been shut down hard and fast by Republicans, but they were/are too gutless and/or opportunistic to take a righteous stand. We're at a place now where 2/3 of Republicans think the 2020 election was stolen without the slightest shred of evidence. How do we survive when the Republican party is crazy.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
7.3.1  Sparty On  replied to  JumpDrive @7.3    one week ago

A comment straight out of a PoliSci 101 class.   Complete with 25 cent words and all.  

As is usually the case with comments like this you have misread most of the tea leaves and underestimated your perceived antagonists intentions and intelligence.

The prime error .... underestimating your opponent.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Senior Principal
7.3.2  Nerm_L  replied to  JumpDrive @7.3    one week ago
A nonsensical deflection. Neo-liberalism is largely the economic policy of free market capitalism.

Close but no cigar.  Liberal institutionalism (neoliberalism) advocates pluralism, multiculturalism, and multilateralism regulated by a technocracy.  Unfettered trade governed by multilateral trade agreements and technocratic regulators is NOT free market capitalism.  

At one time neoliberal ideology was claimed (by opponents) to be about establishing a One World Order which, BTW, really was a goal of the United Nations.  Of course, opposition to neoliberal ideology tended to exaggerate what that goal really meant which is typical of politics.

January 6th was the result of two things (1) the Republican 25 year project cultivating a base of obsequious coprohagists; people who will eat up any bullshit Republicans feed them. And (2), the continuous pushing of the Big Lie that his election was stolen by the most corrupt President we have ever had.

The obsequious coprophagists can't give up their Orange Man Bad politics.  Democrat dung beetles are still rolling their balls of dung because their neoliberal candidate lost.  And their newly elected neoliberal is botching up everything.  And like any good neoliberal screwup, the blame is being directed toward Americans.  Neoliberal technocrats can do no wrong, after all.

The disunity evidenced by January 6th was caused by Trump’s Big Lie and the politicians who supported it. The Big Lie should have been shut down hard and fast by Republicans, but they were/are too gutless and/or opportunistic to take a righteous stand. We're at a place now where 2/3 of Republicans think the 2020 election was stolen without the slightest shred of evidence. How do we survive when the Republican party is crazy.

Yeah, the four years of lies, half truths, spittle-spewing outrage, and twisting everything into an Orange Man Bad polemic had nothing to do with it.

After four years of rolling dung balls, Trump lost but Republicans overall won the 2020 election.  Democrats lost the census.  And now that the neoliberals are back in charge absolutely everything is falling apart.  Care to guess who the scapegoats will be?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
7.3.3  CB   replied to  JumpDrive @7.3    one week ago
How do we survive when the Republican party is crazy.

Excise the 'rot.' Or, keep feeding that party hard cold facts and figures until they get better or 'bust open' from care. Either way, truth will have its outcome!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8  Tessylo    one week ago

"The disunity evidenced by January 6th was caused by Trump’s Big Lie and the politicians who supported it. The Big Lie should have been shut down hard and fast by Republicans, but they were/are too gutless and/or opportunistic to take a righteous stand. We're at a place now where 2/3 of Republicans think the 2020 election was stolen without the slightest shred of evidence. How do we survive when the Republican party is crazy."

Every one of them is complicit in 1/6/21.  

 
 
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