Should Thanksgiving Be A Nationalistic Holiday?

  

Category:  News & Politics

By:  john-russell  •  2 weeks ago  •  85 comments

Should Thanksgiving Be A Nationalistic Holiday?

Trying to find an objective source , I read both the World book Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Britannica entries on Thanksgiving. 

Here are excerpts


More than any other American holiday, Thanksgiving Day is surrounded with tradition, myth, and legend. Popular accounts of the first thanksgiving at Plymouth Colony—held by Native Americans and English pilgrims in 1621—do not stand up to the historical facts known about the gathering. Further, for many modern Native Americans, the holiday also serves as a sad reminder that the arrival of Europeans ultimately had many tragic consequences for them. But one legacy of thanksgiving that has endured and remains true to the historical record is the theme of generosity—for three days in the autumn of 1621, some of the native inhabitants of New England joined more recent arrivals from England in sharing the gifts of the land with each other. Each November, Americans continue this tradition with family and friends.

Many Native American groups have a long tradition of celebrations of thanks for the bounties of the earth. European peoples have also held autumn harvest festivals and feasts for centuries. In 1619, a group of 38 English settlers arrived at Berkeley Plantation, near what is now Charles City, Virginia, on December 4. The group’s charter required that the day of arrival be observed yearly as a day of thanksgiving to God.

... The Plymouth Colony was founded by English pilgrims in 1620 at the site of a deserted Wampanoag village called Patuxet. The colonists’ first winter in Plymouth was harsh, and about half of them died. In the spring of 1621, however, a Patuxet man named Tisquantum—called Squanto by the English—showed them how to plant traditional Native American crops of corn and pumpkin in addition to their European peas, wheat, and barley. In early autumn of 1621, the governor of Plymouth, William Bradford, organized a festival to give thanks to God for the survival of the colony and for their first harvest.

The festival lasted three days. Tradition holds that the colonists invited Massasoit, the Wampanoag chief, although some versions of the story claim he came to negotiate a new land treaty. He arrived with about 90 of his people and contributed five deer to the feast. The women of the settlement supervised cooking over outdoor fires. Foods served probably included duck and turkey; a corn porridge called nasaump; and a pumpkin dish called pompion. The English and Wampanoags played games and engaged in contests of skill, and the English held a military review. The colonists held similar harvest celebrations for several years. The Wampanoags did not always participate. Good relations between the colonists and the Native Americans eventually ended because of disputes over land, religious beliefs, and cultural traditions.

WORLD BOOK

=====

Plymouth’s Thanksgiving began with a few colonists going out “fowling,” possibly for turkeys but more probably for the easier prey of geese and ducks, since they “in one day killed as much as…served the company almost a week.” Next, 90 or so Wampanoag made a surprise appearance at the settlement’s gate, doubtlessly unnerving the 50 or so colonists. Nevertheless, over the next few days the two groups socialized without incident. The Wampanoag contributed venison   to the feast, which included the fowl and probably fish , eels , shellfish , stews, vegetables , and beer . Since Plymouth had few buildings and manufactured goods, most people ate outside while sitting on the ground or on barrels with plates on their laps. The men fired guns , ran races, and drank liquor , struggling to speak in broken English and Wampanoag. This was a rather disorderly affair, but it sealed a treaty between the two groups that lasted until King Philip’s War (1675–76), in which hundreds of colonists and thousands of Native Americans lost their lives.

ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA

=====================================================

Thanksgiving was first declared a national holiday by Abraham Lincoln in 1863, but it is not clear that Lincoln intended to connect Thanksgiving to the Plymouth Rock pilgrims. There had been some talk of a thanksgiving day during the Founding era that didnt even mention the pilgrims, but over the course of the 19th century the holiday became infused with the pilgrim story. 

In the mid 19th century or so there was a prominent writer named Sarah Hale, who "lobbied" for a Thanksgiving Day in America to become a third patriotic holiday to go along with The Fourth Of July and Washington's Birthday. And so it was , at the time. 

I mention these things because of a Ted Cruz tweet over the weekend. Cruz objected to a short segment on an MSNBC show on Saturday morning, when a Native American activist was allowed to go on a "rant" about Thanksgiving

Cruz went on twitter and said 
























Ted Cruz
@tedcruz
·
 17h
@msnbc
 corporate message: Thanksgiving sucks. Come for the lies; stay for the anti-American hate.
Quote Tweet




MSNBC
@MSNBC
 · Nov 20
“Instead of bringing stuffing and biscuits, those settlers brought genocide and violence,” Gyasi Ross says about the history of American Thanksgiving. “That genocide and violence is still on the menu.”




====================================================


I think there is an intractable problem with celebrating Thanksgiving as a nationalistic or patriotic holiday.  It is presented as the beginning of a great national adventure for America, and also as a sentimental cooperation between the Europeans and the natives. That is the traditional "white " viewpoint. But from a long term view in the natives perspective, celebrating the pilgrims as a national holiday is simply glorifying the beginning of the end of the native peoples. Even if the first Thanksgiving was a peaceful co-operation between the natives and the whites, it was followed by three or more centuries of strife, conquest , land theft, and arguably genocide. 


It really is not very far fetched to wonder what people of color have to celebrate about the traditional story of Thanksgiving, the "patriotic" story . 


To the best of my knowledge, most Americans today celebrate Thanksgiving much more as a day to give thanks for good that has occurred in their individual lives and families , and far less as a "patriotic" holiday anymore. I think intelligent people see the incongruity in the traditional myth of the first Thanksgiving. 


So why did Cruz suggest it is "hating " America to offer a counter perspective on a cable news show? 
















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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  author  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

news.yahoo.com   /first-thanksgiving-key-chapter-americas-132837083.html

The first Thanksgiving is a key chapter in America's origin story – but what happened in Virginia four months later mattered much more

Peter C. Mancall, Andrew W. Mellon Professor of the Humanities, USC Dornsife College of Letters, Arts and Sciences 8-10 minutes   11/22/2021


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In the 19th century, there was a campaign to link the Thanksgiving holiday to the Pilgrims.   Bettman/Getty Images

This year marks the 400th anniversary of the first Thanksgiving in New England. Remembered and retold as an allegory for perseverance and cooperation, the story of that first Thanksgiving has become an important part of how Americans think about the founding of their country.

But what happened four months later, starting in March 1622 about 600 miles south of Plymouth, is, I believe, far more reflective of the country’s origins – a story not of peaceful coexistence but of distrust, displacement and repression.

As a scholar of colonial New England   and Virginia , I have often wondered why Americans tend to pay so much less attention to other English migrants of the same era.

The conquest and colonization of New England mattered, of course. But the Pilgrims’ experience in the early 1620s tells us less about the colonial era than events along Chesapeake Bay, where the English had established Jamestown in 1607.

A compelling origin story

The Pilgrims etched their place in the nation’s history long ago as plucky survivors who persevered despite difficult conditions. Ill-prepared for the New England winter of 1620 to 1621,   they benefited when   a terrible epidemic raged among the Indigenous peoples of the region from 1616 to 1619, which reduced competition for resources.

Having endured a winter in which perhaps one-half of the migrants succumbed, the survivors welcomed the fall harvest of 1621. They survived because local Wampanoags had taught them how to grow corn,   the most important crop in much of eastern North America . That November, the Pilgrims and Wampanoags shared a three-day feast.

This was the event that now marks the first American day of Thanksgiving, even though many Indigenous peoples   had long had rituals that included giving thanks   and other European settlers had previously declared similar days of thanks –   including one in Florida in 1565   and   another along the Maine coast in 1607 .

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Native American woman presents a turkey to a Pilgrim.

In 1623, Pilgrims in Plymouth declared a day to thank their God for bringing rain when it looked like their corn crop might wither in a brutal drought. They likely celebrated it in late July. In 1777, in the midst of the Revolutionary War, the members of the Continental Congress   declared a day of Thanksgiving for Dec. 18 . The Pilgrims didn’t even get a mention.

In the 19th century, however, annual Thanksgiving holidays became linked to New England, largely as a result of   campaigns to make the Plymouth experience one of the nation’s origin stories . Promoters of this narrative identified the Mayflower Compact as the starting point for representative government and praised the religious freedom they saw in New England – at least for Americans of European ancestry.

For most of the last century, U.S. Presidents have mentioned the Pilgrims in their annual proclamation,   helping to solidify the link between the holiday and those immigrants .

In Virginia, a tenuous peace shatters

But the events in Plymouth in 1621 that came to be enshrined in the national narrative were not typical.

A more revealing incident took place in Virginia in 1622.

Since 1607, English migrants had maintained a small community in Jamestown, where colonists struggled mightily to survive. Unable to figure out how to find fresh water, they drank from the James River, even during the summer months when the water level dropped and turned the river into a swamp. The bacteria they consumed from doing so   caused typhoid fever and dysentery .

Despite a death rate that reached 50% in some years, the English decided to stay. Their investment paid off in the mid-1610s when an enterprising colonist named John Rolfe planted West Indian tobacco seeds in the region’s fertile soil.   The industry soon boomed .

But economic success did not mean the colony would thrive. Initial English survival in Virginia depended on the good graces of the local Indigenous population. By 1607,   Wahunsonacock , the leader of an alliance of Natives called   Tsenacomoco , had spent a generation forming a confederation of roughly 30 distinct communities along tributaries of Chesapeake Bay. The English called him Powhatan and labeled his followers the Powhatans.

Wahunsonacock could have likely prevented the English from establishing their community at Jamestown; after all, the Powhatans controlled most of the resources in the region. In 1608, when the newcomers were near starvation, the Powhatans provided them with food.   Wahunsonacock also spared Captain John Smith’s life   after his people captured the Englishman.

Wahunsonacock’s actions revealed his strategic thinking. Rather than see the newcomers as all-powerful, he likely believed the English   would become a subordinate community under his control . After a war from 1609 to 1614 between English and Powhatans, Wahunsonacock and his allies agreed to peace and coexistence.

Wahunsonacock died in 1618. Soon after his passing, Opechancanough, likely one of Wahunsonacock’s brothers, emerged as a leader of the Powhatans. Unlike his predecessor, Opechancanough viewed the English with suspicion,   especially when they pushed on to Powhatan lands to expand their tobacco fields .

By spring 1622, Opechancanough had had enough. On March 22, he and his allies launched a surprise attack. By day’s end, they had killed 347 of the English. They might have killed more except that one Powhatan who had converted to Christianity had warned some of the English,   which gave them the time to escape .

Within months, news of the violence spread in England. Edward Waterhouse, the colony’s secretary, detailed the “barbarous Massacre”   in a short pamphlet . A few years later, an engraver in Frankfurt captured Europeans’ fears of Native Americans   in a haunting illustration   for a translation of Waterhouse’s book.

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Matthäus Merian’s woodcut print depicted brutal bloodshed in Jamestown, shaping European attitudes toward Native Americans.   Wikimedia Commons

Waterhouse wrote of those who died “under the bloudy and barbarous hands of that perfidious and inhumane people.” He reported that the victors had desecrated English corpses. He called them “savages” and resorted to common European descriptions of “wyld Naked Natives.” He vowed revenge.

Over the next decade, English soldiers launched a brutal war against the Powhatans,   repeatedly burning the Powhatans’ fields at harvest time   in an effort to starve them and drive them away.

Conflict over cooperation

The Powhatans’ orchestrated attack anticipated other Indigenous rebellions against aggressive European colonizers in 17th-century North America.

The English response, too, fit a pattern: Any sign of resistance by “pagans,” as Waterhouse labeled the Powhatans, needed to be suppressed to advance Europeans’ desire to convert Native Americans to Christianity, claim Indigenous lands, and satisfy European customers clamoring for goods produced in America.

It was this dynamic – not the one of fellowship found in Plymouth in 1621 – that would go on to define the relationship between Native Americans and European settlers for over two centuries.

Before the end of the century, violence erupted in New England too, erasing the positive legacy of the feast of 1621. By 1675, simmering tensions exploded in a war that stretched across the region. On a per capita basis,   it was among the deadliest conflicts in American history .

[ Get the best of The Conversation, every weekend.   Sign up for our weekly newsletter .]

In 1970, an Aquinnah Wampanoag elder named Wamsutta, on the occasion of the 350th anniversary of the arrival of the Mayflower,   pointed to generations of violence against Native communities and dispossession . Ever since that day, many Indigenous Americans   have observed a National Day of Mourning instead of Thanksgiving .

Today’s Thanksgiving – with school kids’ construction paper turkeys and narrative of camaraderie and cooperation between the colonists and Indigenous Americans – obscures the more tragic legacy of the early 17th century.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  author  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

time.com   /5910755/mayflower-plymouth-meaning/

How America Keeps Adapting the Story of the Pilgrims at Plymouth to Match the Story We Need to Tell

By Peter C. Mancall 13-16 minutes


T his autumn marks the 400th anniversary of the arrival of a hardy band of English religious dissenters at the   Wampanoag town of Patuxet . The Pilgrims renamed it as Plymouth. They believed that this was the place to launch their new England, a refuge for persecuted Protestants. But Plymouth never became popular. It attracted few English migrants before Massachusetts absorbed it in 1691.

More than a century would pass between that landing—on what was recorded as Dec. 16, 1620, though accounts of the exact date differ—and the creation of the Plymouth idea that is still familiar to many Americans. Before 1776, few commentators made much of that bit of history. But after   the establishment of the United States , historians and politicians cemented Plymouth in the script of American nationalism, minimizing its well-documented problems and magnifying its alleged wonders. In the centuries that followed, that trend continued, even as the form of that nationalism changed. The word “Plymouth” may today conjure up visions of Pilgrims in search of religious freedom, but that vision did not reflect the circumstances on the ground in the early 17th century.


The link between Plymouth’s experiences and America’s political culture began with   William Bradford , the most prominent politician in the colony’s first decade. From 1630 to 1650, he wrote a lengthy history, now known as   Of Plymouth Plantation . Like many of his Pilgrim brethren, Bradford had earlier fled from England to Leiden, in the Netherlands, to escape religious persecution. He then joined about 100 others on the   Mayflower . After a tumultuous sea journey, they arrived at Patuxet.

Bradford’s version of events emphasized the Pilgrim’s struggles, which he interpreted through a biblical lens. They landed in a wilderness, he wrote, surrounded by enemies who would not provide them succor, unlike the treatment of Paul among the barbarians (Acts 28). The woods were so thick that they could not see the promised land because, unlike Moses, they could not climb a mountain (Deuteronomy 34). They executed a teenage boy for bestiality, following guidance from Leviticus.

Bradford concentrated on the Pilgrims’ struggle to create their godly community. He wrote that they exiled other colonists who held different religious views, and he chastised Indigenous enemies. His peers did more than just chastise: The Pilgrims sent an Anglican lawyer named Thomas Morton to England after they caught him cavorting with and selling arms to local Natives. During a war in 1637, the English colonizers, with Narragansett allies, surrounded a Pequot village, set it alight and murdered those fleeing the flames. The Pilgrims thanked their God for the downfall of a “proud and insulting” enemy. The victors sold some of the captured Pequots into slavery. Religious and political freedom existed for the Pilgrims, but not for Native Americans—and other colonists—who disagreed with them.

In the 19th century, Plymouth resurfaced when historians and politicians in New England claimed it was the birthplace of the nation. (Virginians, by contrast, celebrated   Jamestown   instead.) Their argument hinged on two claims. First,   the Mayflower Compact , the   200-word document   written and signed on the journey, introduced the idea of self-rule maintained with a constitutional government. Second, Plymouth stood for the religious freedom sought by its founders.

By that point, the ends for which Plymouth would be useful had changed. What had once been a story about religious obedience became   a story about religious freedom.   In 1820, on the town’s bicentennial, the statesman Daniel Webster venerated Plymouth in the racialist language of his age. Here, he declared, was “where Christianity, and civilization” took hold in a vast wilderness “peopled by roving barbarians.” The town, its 19th-century celebrants declared, launched a system that produced representative government and religious freedom, two hallowed tenets of America enshrined in the U.S. Constitution. Yet when Webster made his statement, many Americans could not enjoy these privileges. Slavery remained widespread and the federal government in the 1830s forcibly relocated thousands of Natives from the Southeast. Webster and others across New England condemned slavery, but most politicians echoed Plymouth’s past: they touted grand principles that many could not enjoy.

Of course, not everyone bought the positive spin. Writers from Nathaniel Hawthorne to H.L. Mencken mocked the Pilgrims’ self-righteous piety. William Apess, a Pequot historian, condemned the treatment of his ancestors. Nonetheless, the Pilgrims became stock figures in the American pageant and in elementary-school classrooms. Illustrators depicted them weighed down by heavy woolens, trudging through wintry woods, seemingly always on their way to church. Such figures have long populated   stories about Thanksgiving , which became a federal holiday in 1863.

Orators   remembered Plymouth   and its founders well into the 20th century, again shaping the story to fit their needs. Speaking at Plymouth in 1920, on its 300th anniversary, Massachusetts Senator Henry Cabot Lodge saw in the Pilgrims’ experiences the “foundations upon which the great fabric of the United States has been built up,” a telling statement as the world recovered from the influenza pandemic and a world war. In 1952, with a Red Scare rising, the historian Samuel Eliot Morison edited Bradford’s book. In 1623, Bradford had noted that the Pilgrims abandoned an economic model in which individuals would work for the common good, and instead tended their own farms. Morison’s running head for that chapter included the word “communism,” which appeared 12 times in his edition even though the term did not exist when the Pilgrims lived. With this addition, Morrison made   the Pilgrims , who rejected communal ownership, into exemplars of an individualist American ethos. In 1970, in a different political moment, an Aquinnah Wampanoag elder named Wamsutta (Frank James) walked out of a public commemoration of Plymouth to draw attention to crimes colonists committed against Indigenous peoples.

Plymouth’s experience reminds us that anniversaries often tell us more about the celebrants (or mourners) than actual events in the distant past. What happened there had significance for those at the time. But its history has mattered because it served later political goals.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3  author  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago
In the 19th century, Plymouth resurfaced when historians and politicians in New England claimed it was the birthplace of the nation. (Virginians, by contrast, celebrated      Jamestown       instead.) Their argument hinged on two claims. First,      the Mayflower Compact   , the      200-word document       written and signed on the journey, introduced the idea of self-rule maintained with a constitutional government. Second, Plymouth stood for the religious freedom sought by its founders.

By that point, the ends for which Plymouth would be useful had changed. What had once been a story about religious obedience became      a story about religious freedom.    

 In 1820, on the town’s bicentennial, the statesman Daniel Webster venerated Plymouth in the racialist language of his age. Here, he declared, was “where Christianity, and civilization” took hold in a vast wilderness “peopled by roving barbarians.” The town, its 19th-century celebrants declared, launched a system that produced representative government and religious freedom, two hallowed tenets of America enshrined in the U.S. Constitution. Yet when Webster made his statement, many Americans could not enjoy these privileges. Slavery remained widespread and the federal government in the 1830s forcibly relocated thousands of Natives from the Southeast.

Webster and others across New England condemned slavery, but most politicians echoed Plymouth’s past: they touted grand principles that many could not enjoy.
 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
4  Sparty On    2 weeks ago

Yes

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @4    2 weeks ago

on what basis? 

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
4.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1    2 weeks ago

Tradition.

When it comes to that, a lot of people aren't worried about appeasement of a "woke" mob.

I don't worry about civil war statues or have a need to indoctrinate children in our schools to agree with me.

But that's just me .....

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.2  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.1    2 weeks ago

Do people of color , particularly the native Americans , have any reason to celebrate Thanksgiving as a patriotic holiday?  They are Americans too , you know. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.3  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.1    2 weeks ago
When it comes to that, a lot of people aren't worried about appeasement of a "woke" mob.

So being comprehensive or accurate in telling history is to be "woke"? Interesting. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.4  Ozzwald  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.1    2 weeks ago
When it comes to that, a lot of people aren't worried about appeasement of a "woke" mob.

By "woke" mob, do you mean people that support truths, instead of falsehoods that have been handed down for years? 

Would YOU prefer to know the "truth" or remain ignorant with "falsehoods"?  Note: this is outside politics and such, I am talking generic "truths", not any specifics.  Also, there is only 1 truth, there are not liberal or conservative "truths".  Truths are what is factual no matter which way they look.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
4.1.5  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.2    2 weeks ago

No one is forcing anything on them.   Certainly not my family.

I don't tell them what their traditions should be and i expect they won't try to do the same with me.

It's not that complicated really.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
4.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.4    2 weeks ago
Note: this is outside politics and such,

Lol ... you keep telling yourself that.  

Using "truth" in the same sentence as "woke mob" is a laughable word to description that group.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
4.1.7  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.2    2 weeks ago

Sometimes a holiday is just a holiday....a time of gathering together with those we care about and give thanks for the good that has happened to us. I suspect that most Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans enjoy Thanksgiving also.

However, there will always be a few pathetic morons who will make it political. What happened 400 years ago is irrelevant.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.8  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.7    2 weeks ago
Sometimes a holiday is just a holiday....a time of gathering together with those we care about and give thanks for the good that has happened to us.

Is the Fourth Of July just a holiday?

There is a couple hundred years of Thanksgiving being connected to the Pilgrims. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
4.1.9  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.8    2 weeks ago

So John, who will be at your dinner table come Thursday

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.10  Ozzwald  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.6    2 weeks ago
Lol ... you keep telling yourself that. 

No, I am telling you that in context of my question, which I see you are refusing to answer.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.11  Ozzwald  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.7    2 weeks ago
Sometimes a holiday is just a holiday....a time of gathering together with those we care about and give thanks for the good that has happened to us. I suspect that most Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans enjoy Thanksgiving also.

So do you ONLY gather with your family and friends on holidays?  Do you only gather with them after checking your calendar to make sure it is not on some day you would consider bad?

There is nothing that says you cannot celebrate any holiday you want, this is just addressing the truth behind the holiday.  Instead of celebrating a lie, you can still celebrate, while being aware of the truth.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.12  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.9    2 weeks ago

I dont have any problem with Thanksgiving. As I said in the article, these days most people celebrate it as a family and friends occasion, not a nationalistic holiday. 

So why then did Ted Cruz call people who mention the Native American viewpoint as being un-American ? 

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
4.1.13  Sparty On  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.10    2 weeks ago

And i'm telling you that in "context" of your comment, it is intentionally political.  

Highly political but as i said, you keep trying to convince yourself that it isn't.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.14  Ozzwald  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.13    2 weeks ago
And i'm telling you that in "context" of your comment, it is intentionally political.

And specifically, in the "context" of my question to you, it is not.  Or else you wouldn't be so terrified of answering it.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
4.1.15  Sparty On  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.14    2 weeks ago

lol ..... the day i'm terrified of something in here will never come.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.16  Ozzwald  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.15    2 weeks ago
the day i'm terrified of something in here will never come.

Then answer the question.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
4.1.17  Sparty On  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.16    2 weeks ago

Already answered.  

That you don't recognize or like that answer is not my concern

Not in the least.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.18  Ozzwald  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.17    2 weeks ago
Already answered.

Why are you so afraid of a simple question?  You squirm and now lie about the question, but refuse to answer.

Here, let me help.  My answer would be that I prefer to know the truth, not a falsehood, even though the falsehood is easier and more comfortable.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
4.1.19  Sparty On  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.18    2 weeks ago

Why are you so intent at not accepting that your question has already been answered?

Never mind, i already know the answer to that question .....

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.20  Ozzwald  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.19    2 weeks ago
Why are you so intent at not accepting that your question has already been answered?

So, is that the way you're going?  Let me repeat my question for you.

Would YOU prefer to know the "truth" or remain ignorant with "falsehoods"?

Now, since you claim to have already answered, please repeat your answer for the above question.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
4.1.21  Sparty On  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.20    2 weeks ago

Now, read 4.1.1 and tell me again you don't understand my answer.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.22  Ozzwald  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.21    2 weeks ago

Now, read 4.1.1 and tell me again you don't understand my answer.

So, is that the way you're going?  Let me repeat my question for you.

Would YOU prefer to know the "truth" or remain ignorant with "falsehoods"?

Now, since you claim to have already answered, please repeat your answer for the above question.

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Principal
5  Kathleen    2 weeks ago

Lets just enjoy Thanksgiving with our families and all the good food and stop trying to make political statements about it.   It's a time when everyone can get together to see relatives that we normally don't see much and spend time with them. In my family we always say it's a shame we only see each other on weddings and funerals. To me, it's more important to see your loved ones then to worry about who did what long ago......

 
 
 
Ronin2
PhD Quiet
5.1  Ronin2  replied to  Kathleen @5    2 weeks ago

That is what Thanksgiving has come to mean. Getting together with family and friends. Trying to put aside differences if even for just a couple of days. 

But some want to take it all away; they want to pretend that 1621 never existed. They would rather concentrate on everything that came after on both sides; rather than strive for the ideal that 1621 represented. No problem with teaching accurate history; so long as the lesson is learned from it. Show people what happens when two sides stop working together; do not take each others needs into account; and seek dominance at every turn. Show that the ideal is something that must be continuously worked for by all sides.

Or we could follow the leftist woke mantra and do away with anything they don't agree with. I am sure they will still demand the days off with pay; even if the holiday no longer exists.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
5.1.1  XXJefferson51  replied to  Ronin2 @5.1    2 weeks ago

Thanksgiving is a total affront to the woke mob of intellectual midgets promoting 1619 propaganda and CRT. 

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Principal
5.1.2  Kathleen  replied to  Ronin2 @5.1    2 weeks ago

I try to look towards the future and not dwell on the past. Things may have happened long ago that was fair and unfair, but the important thing is to stop and smell the roses of today. Why cause more grief when you can make things better? If something went wrong, just don't repeat it. So lets all just enjoy being with our families. That's how I look at it. I agree, I don't want things taken away for political reasons. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.3  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Ronin2 @5.1    2 weeks ago

Why did Ted Cruz accuse the native American activist , and MSNBC for that matter, of "hating America"? 

Cruz is saying that unless you go along with the myth you are un-American. That is going to change. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Junior Quiet
5.1.4  Jack_TX  replied to  XXJefferson51 @5.1.1    2 weeks ago
Thanksgiving is a total affront to the woke mob of intellectual midgets promoting 1619 propaganda and CRT. 

I'm not sure that's limited to Thanksgiving, TBH.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure it's limited in any way, really.

 
 
 
Ronin2
PhD Quiet
5.1.5  Ronin2  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.3    2 weeks ago

Because that is the culture we live in right now in case you hadn't noticed; and it is getting worse. And the left (despite the protests of many on this site) is every bit as bad as the right is. Neither side wants to give an inch.

The entire article you wants to ignore that Thanksgiving ever existed; and do away with it on the grounds it offends a few. It is absolutely intended to offend those that respect the holiday.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
5.2  XXJefferson51  replied to  Kathleen @5    2 weeks ago

It’s truly more a Holy day and one to give thanks to God for our lives, our nation, our well being, everything good that we are.  It is a religious holiday more than a patriotic one.  

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Principal
5.2.1  Kathleen  replied to  XXJefferson51 @5.2    2 weeks ago

Everyone has their own feelings about certain Holidays, that is fine with me. Mine would be being thankful for our family and friends and other important things in our lives. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
5.3  Gordy327  replied to  Kathleen @5    2 weeks ago
Lets just enjoy Thanksgiving with our families and all the good food and stop trying to make political statements about it. 

Agreed. Everything is politicized nowadays. Thanksgiving is a perfect excuse to gorge oneself on feasts. 

we only see each other on weddings and funerals.

Aren't those the same thing? jrSmiley_18_smiley_image.gif

You know, to round out the "holiday season," Halloween should also be deemed a national holiday.

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Principal
5.3.1  Kathleen  replied to  Gordy327 @5.3    2 weeks ago

Hey... that's a good idea!  Halloween is a lot of fun.. Anyway, Yep, lets just relax, have a drink and eat well.  jrSmiley_4_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
5.3.2  Gordy327  replied to  Kathleen @5.3.1    2 weeks ago
Hey... that's a good idea! Halloween is a lot of fun

Thank you. It makes sense too. After all, children get together or stay with their parents to trick or treat and have fun doing it, with friends or as a family. Like Thanksgiving & Xmas, they can gorge on food, particularly candy in the case of Halloween. It has parties and games and all that. Plus, Xmas decorations are already up in stores. If Halloween is the "unofficial" start to the holiday season, why not make it official with a holiday declaration? After all, it is probably the best "holiday" of all.

Anyway, Yep, lets just relax, have a drink and eat well. 

That's how I live my life. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
5.4  Sparty On  replied to  Kathleen @5    2 weeks ago

Well personally i think that everyone who philosophically disagrees with the Thanksgiving holiday, should consider it a normal day and just go to work.  [deleted]

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Principal
5.4.1  Kathleen  replied to  Sparty On @5.4    2 weeks ago

Hey.... not me.. I am going to have a few drinks and forget about it all.. jrSmiley_4_smiley_image.png

Plus I am not cooking !

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
5.4.2  Sparty On  replied to  Kathleen @5.4.1    2 weeks ago

You ... are like most people.

Hater gotta hate is all have to say and you aren't a hater.

Happy T-day!

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Principal
5.4.3  Kathleen  replied to  Sparty On @5.4.2    2 weeks ago

Same to you!

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
6  zuksam    2 weeks ago

Most people could give a rats ass about the hyper-politicized Definitions and Leftwing Views of Thanksgiving. To the vast majority of Americans Thanksgiving is about Family, Friends, and Food (especially Turkey). It's a day to gather together and give thanks for what we have "Today", it's the one day a year people are most likely to invite people they don't know into their homes to share a meal.  The Pilgrims and Natives story is for grade school kids so they can dress up and play and trace hand-turkeys and cut them out and color them. If the stories aren't quite true who cares they're children's fairytales, let them be children, let them have their multicultural illusion for a few years before you try to indoctrinate them into the ideology of hate and blame. Thanksgiving is a wonderful holiday that brings out the best in most people, it's about sharing with those who may not have a family and for one day letting them be a part of yours. Thanksgiving is about being American but not in the big national flag waving way but in the small neighborly way.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  zuksam @6    2 weeks ago

I don't know anyone who wants to indoctrinate them into hate and blame, but I do think kids should learn the real history of America.

I love this country. I really do. But as far as I'm concerned it has warts. I love this country in spite of its warts.

 
 
 
MonsterMash
Sophomore Participates
6.2  MonsterMash  replied to  zuksam @6    2 weeks ago

jrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
6.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  zuksam @6    2 weeks ago
It's a day to gather together and give thanks for what we have "Today"

I love what I have today. I love having friends and family over for a feast. I love watching football on a Thursday afternoon while going into a partial food coma. I also know that giving thanks is more than just saying "Thank you" to the 'heavens' for what we have and entails recognizing where what we have today actually came from. Understanding and appreciating the fact that we largely have what we have because our ancestors often stole lands, broke treaties, committed genocide, segregated, discriminated and generally shat on anyone that didn't share their skin color or brand of faith.

And instead of resenting the descendants of those who got screwed throughout our American history or just feeling guilty about it, perhaps agreeing that it's a good thing to give those who have been historically shat on their lands back and honoring treaties signed or giving a hand-up to those who have been systemically oppressed instead of freaking out claiming reverse racism anytime someone mentions affirmative action.

And when a group of native Americans ask you to change your baseball teams name or ridiculously racist fan chant, or wants to set the narrative straight on the real Thanksgiving, or black Americans petition to take down monuments to Confederates that fought to keep them enslaved or ask others to agree that black lives should matter, perhaps we could spend a few minutes listening and trying to understand where they're coming from instead of immediately finding some lame excuse to shirk all personal responsibility so we can get back to focusing on ourselves.

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Principal
7  Kathleen    2 weeks ago

This is also the time to think of people less fortunate then us. At some of the grocery stores they have a bin or box that you can buy food for families that need some help. Use some of your energy to help them out.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8  charger 383    2 weeks ago

I think there are some who wish the Indians had repelled the English colonists

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
8.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  charger 383 @8    2 weeks ago

Charger,

As a person who is a member of a tribe, it's not a matter of repelling the English, but rather how the English treated my ancestors. They could have co-existed but that was not to be. And for the record, my mom is English, and she feels the same way.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
8.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1    2 weeks ago

The English didn't want to co-exist because they thought they were morally and intellectually superior. The NAs were "savages" who had to be brought to heel

Oh, yeah... my ancestors were British

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
8.1.2  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.1.1    2 weeks ago

Sadly, that seems to be the truth. Their behavior worldwide showed that.

Btw, they thought that about American's in general until recent times. I had an awful time growing up there. They thought we were classless, uncouth, and stupid on international affairs.

A true superiority complex. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1.3  Kavika   replied to  Trout Giggles @8.1.1    2 weeks ago

The basis of that ''savages'' and the Brits being morally and intellectually super goes back to the RCC the Doctrine of Discovery and the papal bull “Inter Caetera" in some circles it still exists today.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
8.1.4  1stwarrior  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1    2 weeks ago

And this is the other side of the story - a side that MANY people need to know and understand.

We have been disregarded': On 400th anniversary of Thanksgiving, the Wampanoag People want their story told

https://www.king5.com/article/news/community/facing-race/we-have-been-disregarded-on-400th-anniversary-of-thanksgiving-the-wampanoag-people-want-their-story-told/281-5e2d3911-77a4-458b-8fb6-43db2dba9b7e?fbclid=IwAR0MAtCi-JCkCQM-8oF5ZEeT7NwYbFQIE2XRqzJQkd-E0V0zLzwPy05R630

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.1.5  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.1.1    2 weeks ago

For me what I know is Irish and German.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8.1.6  charger 383  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1    2 weeks ago

Agree, another one of many things looking back that could have been handled better.

Europeans did not really know what was here and decided it was theirs for the taking.  Overpopulation in Europe and religious fighting were problems back then as they are now.  The new world provided a relief valve for several centuries   

Things might have turned out much differently and we might not be here discussing it.   So, let's have a yearly feast before winter sets in and be thankful we made it this far 

 
 
 
Ronin2
PhD Quiet
8.1.7  Ronin2  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.1    2 weeks ago

It is not just the English. Think the Native Americans would have any better off with Spanish or French colonists if the English had failed? There was no stopping Europe from colonizing this part of the world; it was just a question of which major power of Europe was going to do it.

People have been fighting wars forever over land and resources. For a very long time the Europeans were the best at it; and had the means and resources to expand their holdings, (and in many cases their religion) across the world.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
9  Tacos!    2 weeks ago
Thanksgiving was first declared a national holiday by Abraham Lincoln in 1863, but it is not clear that Lincoln intended to connect Thanksgiving to the Plymouth Rock pilgrims.

I don’t really think most people in America are thinking about pilgrims and Indians when they gather with family or sit down to feast at Thanksgiving. There is no need to sanitize for an infection that isn’t really present.

Even if the first Thanksgiving was a peaceful co-operation between the natives and the whites, it was followed by three or more centuries of strife, conquest , land theft, and arguably genocide. 

Any good thing can be followed by bad things. That doesn’t mean you can’t focus on the good thing. Unless you just want to be angry.

Thanksgiving is not about any of these things. It’s about literally being thankful for family, friends, and the good things in our lives. As such, it’s a wonderful national holiday. And more than a dozen other countries celebrate a thanksgiving type holiday for the same reasons.

I urge everyone to not look for a reason to be mad about Thanksgiving. Just enjoy it for what it is.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.1  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @9    2 weeks ago

Holidays must be loads of fun for the "woke" folks.

All the angst over what happened centuries ago must really take its toll on them.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
9.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1    2 weeks ago

And of course none of them take the days off right?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.2  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @9    2 weeks ago

The article is in response to Ted Cruz saying that a Native American activist who spoke out about Thanksgiving "hates America" . Ted Cruz made it political. 

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Masters Participates
9.2.1  Jasper2529  replied to  JohnRussell @9.2    2 weeks ago
Ted Cruz made it political. 

Perhaps you should listen to Gyasi Ross' MSNBC rant again. It was HE who made Thanksgiving political! Ted Cruz merely responded to it. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.2.2  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Jasper2529 @9.2.1    2 weeks ago

Gyasi Ross is Native American. He has a right to his point of view. 

Ted Cruz in effect said that it is unAmerican to disagree with the traditional story of Thanksgiving. He said that Gyasi Ross and MSNBC hate America. 

Based on what?  That Ross disagrees with the Thanksgiving "myth"? 

That is why I posed the question - Should Thanksgiving Be A Nationalistic Holiday ? 

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Masters Participates
9.2.3  Jasper2529  replied to  JohnRussell @9.2.2    2 weeks ago
Gyasi Ross is Native American. He has a right to his point of view. 

As an American, of course he does, and no one has said that he did not have a right to his own opinion. Ted Cruz is also an American, so he, too, has a right to his own opinion.

Very simple, actually.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Masters Participates
9.2.4  Jasper2529  replied to  JohnRussell @9.2.2    2 weeks ago
That is why I posed the question - Should Thanksgiving Be A Nationalistic Holiday ? 

IMO, it's the wrong question to ask. 

Had you asked, "Should Thanksgiving Be a National Holiday?", I would answer YES ... merely because it already is by federal law.

However, Thanksgiving has never been a nationalistic holiday. To make it so is to destroy its meaning. For centuries, people have emigrated here from many nations, are of many races and creeds, and happily celebrate the 4th Thursday of November each year as a day to give thanks for our blessings. It's actually a day of unity and documented in reputable, historical annals. 

Since the USA is still a FREE country, Mr. Ross and anyone else who has a petty bone to pick with 21st century white US citizens instead of educating themselves about Colonial American life can pound salt. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.2.5  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @9.2.2    2 weeks ago
Gyasi Ross is Native American. He has a right to his point of view. 

As is Ted Cruz. The Native American's view is no more or less valuable than Cruz's is.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Junior Quiet
9.2.6  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @9.2.2    2 weeks ago
Gyasi Ross is Native American. He has a right to his point of view. 

And everyone else has the right to tell him he's full of shit.

Out of curiosity, why would his heritage have anything to do with his right to a point of view?

Ted Cruz in effect said that it is unAmerican to disagree with the traditional story of Thanksgiving.

That's not actually what he said, now, is it?

He said that Gyasi Ross and MSNBC hate America. 

MSNBC has a track record to warrant that accusation.

Based on what?  That Ross disagrees with the Thanksgiving "myth"? 

Of course not. It's based on a long, long, long history of condemnation regarding nearly every aspect of traditional American culture.  When you almost always express negativity and almost never express endorsement or affirmation, people generally conclude that you hate the idea in question.

This new "war on Thanksgiving" is simply the latest entry in the seemingly endless list of ways to wallow in white liberal guilt. 

With a little effort, a devoted disciple of the Church of Left-Wing Politics can convert every traditional American holiday into a wonderful reminder of why middle-class, straight, white Americans should hate themselves, apologize, and repent for their existence. 

That is why I posed the question - Should Thanksgiving Be A Nationalistic Holiday ? 

No.  But neither should it be an anti-nationalistic holiday.  

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
9.2.7  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @9.2.2    2 weeks ago
Should Thanksgiving Be A Nationalistic Holiday ? 

No, and it’s not. It is a national holiday but it is not about nationalism.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
9.2.8  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @9.2.7    2 weeks ago
No, and it’s not. It is a national holiday but it is not about nationalism.

Thank goodness someone said that.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Masters Participates
9.2.9  Jasper2529  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @9.2.8    2 weeks ago
Thank goodness someone said that.

I said it in comment 9.2.4 , and I'm glad that Tacos! said the same in comment 9.2.7 . It's good that you agree.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Masters Participates
9.3  Jasper2529  replied to  Tacos! @9    2 weeks ago

Thanks for the link showing how other nations and cultures celebrate Thanksgiving.

 
 
 
Sparty On
PhD Principal
9.4  Sparty On  replied to  Tacos! @9    2 weeks ago
I urge everyone to not look for a reason to be mad about Thanksgiving. Just enjoy it for what it is.

Sadly, that is asking for a lot these days.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Junior Quiet
9.5  Jack_TX  replied to  Tacos! @9    2 weeks ago
There is no need to sanitize for an infection that isn’t really present.

Stealing this.  

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
9.6  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Tacos! @9    2 weeks ago
Any good thing can be followed by bad things. That doesn’t mean you can’t focus on the good thing. Unless you just want to be angry.

The date was going really well, nice restaurant, good service, perfect weather. That was of course till Jenny said she just wanted to be taken home which made Donny furious because he'd just spent almost two hundreds bucks, so he decided to push Jenny into the backseat, beat her, rape her and then throw her mostly naked nearly unconscious body from the car down a slope into a muddy ravine and left her there for dead. But that doesn't mean you can't focus on the good things, the roasted duck they had earlier in the evening was exquisite.../s

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
9.6.1  Tacos!  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @9.6    2 weeks ago

I see. And did the people at the original Thanksgiving feast then proceed to rape and murder the very people they had dinner with? Did those individuals set government policy? Did they determine the actions of other people a century or two in the future? No. So your attempt at an analogy sucks.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
10  Just Jim NC TttH    2 weeks ago

256

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
12  Drakkonis    2 weeks ago

I think this guy is trustworthy so i though I'd share this video.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Masters Participates
12.1  Jasper2529  replied to  Drakkonis @12    2 weeks ago

Thank you for posting this video. It supports the only two written histories of the early New England Puritan colonists' and Native Americans' interactions (documented by Edward Winslow and William Bradford). Both men's accounts are accurate, approved documents in many Massachusetts/New England texts.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.2  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @12    2 weeks ago

I looked at the video, although not every second. 

I would just say what I said at the top

I think there is an intractable problem with celebrating Thanksgiving as a nationalistic or patriotic holiday.  It is presented as the beginning of a great national adventure for America, and also as a sentimental cooperation between the Europeans and the natives. That is the traditional "white " viewpoint. But from a long term view in the natives perspective, celebrating the pilgrims as a national holiday is simply glorifying the beginning of the end of the native peoples. Even if the first Thanksgiving was a peaceful co-operation between the natives and the whites, it was followed by three or more centuries of strife, conquest , land theft, and arguably genocide. 
It really is not very far fetched to wonder what people of color have to celebrate about the traditional story of Thanksgiving, the "patriotic" story . 
 
 
 
Jasper2529
Masters Participates
12.2.1  Jasper2529  replied to  JohnRussell @12.2    2 weeks ago
I looked at the video, although not every second. 

I would just say what I said at the top

Even if the first Thanksgiving was a peaceful co-operation between the natives and the whites, it was followed by three or more centuries of strife, conquest , land theft, and arguably genocide. 
It really is not very far fetched to wonder what people of color have to celebrate about the traditional story of Thanksgiving, the "patriotic" story . 
And, that's why you should have watched the entire video and taken the time to read Winslow's and Bradford's written accounts ... which ... by the way ... today's Native Americans of the region agree. 
 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.2.2  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Jasper2529 @12.2.1    2 weeks ago

People dont object to patriotic interpretations of Thanksgiving because of the Pilgrims, they object because Thanksgiving portrays a co-operation between the Europeans and the Indians that was not long lasting in time or space. 

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Masters Participates
12.2.3  Jasper2529  replied to  JohnRussell @12.2.2    2 weeks ago
they object because Thanksgiving portrays a co-operation between the Europeans and the Indians that was not long lasting in time or space.

That is exactly what you still do not understand, John. Winslow and Bradford wrote factual information about peaceful, cooperative interactions between the Pilgrims and (some, not all) Indian tribes that lasted for decades. This is also discussed in Drakkonis' video. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.2.4  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Jasper2529 @12.2.3    2 weeks ago

You dont get the point and I dont have any more desire to try and explain it. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
12.2.5  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @12.2    2 weeks ago
I think there is an intractable problem with celebrating Thanksgiving as a nationalistic or patriotic holiday.  It is presented as the beginning of a great national adventure for America, and also as a sentimental cooperation between the Europeans and the natives. That is the traditional "white " viewpoint.

Well, I think it celebrates a time that was actually fairly nice. People of two different cultures actually having a moment, you know? But more than that, this particular episode is not the entirety of Thanksgiving. The actual theme of Thanksgiving is, well, giving thanks. The only thing about the first one is that it was the first one. Thanksgiving isn't some effort to say everything went swimmingly after that. And I'm baffled by your characterization that the holiday is a nationalistic holiday. Don't see how you get that at all. 

No, I see the complaining against Thanksgiving as nothing more than an effort by the extreme far Left trying to goad the rest of the left as far left as they can goad them. It's pure propaganda in an effort to destroy everything American and replace it with an amalgamation of bastardized Marxism and Post Modernism. And it's working. The more power the left gets the worse things are getting. If China had any brains at all, they'd just sit back for five or ten years and America will cease to be anything resembling meaningful. 

And there's no hope from the right, either, if they stick with Trump. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
13  Texan1211    2 weeks ago

Me, I am going to enjoy the day off with family and too much food and football, giving thanks for all the good things we have received in the past year and letting others obsess over the "meaning" of it all, or what someone 300 years ago thought of it all.

I suggest everyone do likewise.

 
 
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