Relata And Relations – The Star Of Redemption

By:  Enoch  •  8 months ago  •  56 comments

Relata And Relations – The Star Of Redemption
"There is no act of love toward's neighbors that falls into the void". (The Star of Redemption)

Leave a comment to auto-join group Chaplain's Corner

Chaplain's Corner

This article will raise the following issues:

First, what are the major entities that represent what can relate which influence the human species?

How can and should they relate to one another?

Finally, what is the goal of humanity in each of our own lifetimes? What is that goal for humanity over time? Why is it important? How best can we bring it about?

Franz Rosenzweig wrote a book titled, Der Stern der Erlosung  (The Star of Redemption).

He used the Magen David (six-pointed Star of David) as a symbol for components of the end goal of humanity in history.

When you invert one, and imposed that one triangle on the other, you get the Star of David.

One triangle represents the most significant entities which can relate to one another. The second triangle depicts the ways for them to relate. This is to achieve our end goal, redemption.

The first triangle has the following three relational entities;

      G-d, source of it all.

      The world, our material environment and all other life forms dwelling thereupon.

      Lastly, People.

The second triangle refers to the ways necessary to achieve the end goal of history, individual and collective;

First is Creation. That gives us what is necessary for things to relate, and places for such relations.

Revelation. Information about who we are, what we are to do and how best to do it.

Finally, the point of it all, Redemption.

When the three things which can relate do so appropriately redemption is attained. It is the actualization of Divine potential in us non-Divine. That brings us to a state of fulfillment which redeems us of our errant incompleteness.

Through what and how we exist we achieve our essence to its fullest measure. This type of thinking, religious or secular is known as an existentialist ideology. We become what we can most achieve through how we live our existence.

Religious existentialists believe our essence is part of creation. We discover and bring it out in our existence. Some other examples of religious existentialism as Jacques Maritain, Thomistic Roman Catholic (see Existence and Existent), Paul Tillich, Ontological Protestant Theology (see The Courage to Be) and Martin Buber, Jewish Dialogical Theology (see I and Thou). This is a partial, and by no means exhaustive list.

Secular and humanitarian existentialists believe we make our own essence by the choices we make in life. We can choose a positive, or a negative of any proposition. We can even choose not to choose. We are not at liberty to avoid the choice whatever we do or do not do. An example of this is the French existentialist philosopher Jean Paul Sartre (Being and Nothingness). This is but one example of a much larger list.

If the goal of our lives, and the history of our species is to actualize the best in us in our time(s) in this life this is thought by some to give our existence meaning.

Actualizing our potential, becoming what we can best be through most fully and morally living our lives seems on the face of it a worthy goal for all humankind. Bringing out our best selves, however we define it, and in whatever way(s) motivates us to so do, is a goal we ought to pursue. So thought the existentialists. Fulfilling our essence through constructive living.

What say you to this? Why? How?   

Kindly observe the site CoC, TOS; and the Four B’s.

Be Respectful.

Be On-Point.

Be Positive.

Or Be Gone!

We look forward to learning from the wisdom of your heritage(s), culture(s) and your original ideas on the topic.

Peace and Abundant Blessings at Every Level of Existence.



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1  author  Enoch    8 months ago

Is our essence pre-ordained, yet fine tuned and discovered in our existence.

Does it emerge out of our life decisions and relationships? 

What implications are there for our individual lives?

What does this all mean in the course of human history?

Please follow the site Coc, TOS; and the Four B's in your posts.

Be Positive.

Be On-Point.

Be Respectful.

Or Be Gone!

We look forward to what your ideology and original thoughts are on these topics of import and interest to us all.

Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.


pat wilson
1.1  pat wilson  replied to  Enoch @1    8 months ago
Dear Enoch,

A lot of your wonderful articles are a bit beyond my cerebral pay grade, (smile).

Thank you for suffering my questions and observations.

It is the actualization of Divine potential in us non-Divine. That brings us to a state of fulfillment which It is the actualization of Divine potential in us non-Divine.

Are we not inherently fulfilled ? Is redemption needed ?

Is our essence pre-ordained, 

I think our essence / consciousness is eternal. And that we exist in this life to learn and grow. The rest is mystery (to me).

You are the best !
1.1.1  author  Enoch  replied to  pat wilson @1.1    8 months ago

Dear Friend Pat Wilson: You are more than ready for anything about which I write here. 

Existentialists, religious, non or anti religious see our journey in life on an individual basis, and over the course of human events as leading to the fulfillment of some end game in middle eastern to western thought. In eastern thought not so. 

The middle eastern to western perspective is a linear view of human history.

It has a beginning, middle and end point.

The final part is seen as the completion of a process.

In eastern thought, religion and philosophy time is thought of as cyclical. We move up and/or down the ladder of being in each life.

Interesting ways of viewing and trying to find meaning and/or progress; or asserting its absence in these diverse positions.

"Pays your money, takes your choice".

The essence of consciousness could well be eternal in form, but variable in content and expression.

So felt Plato in The Republic. 

Thanks for bringing all this up.

Your thumb is on the pulse.

Many bases were touched in your thoughtful and insightful contribution. 

We are indebted.



pat wilson
1.1.2  pat wilson  replied to  Enoch @1.1.1    8 months ago
but variable in content and expression.

The up / down ladder through lifetimes ?

1.1.3  author  Enoch  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.2    8 months ago

Dear Friend Pat Wilson: In the case of Eastern religions, yes.

They do opine that we are reincarnated up or down the evolutionary ladder based on the content of how we lived out a previous life.

If I understand Plato correctly he was not writing about reincarnation.

That is more characteristic of eastern ideology than Hellenistic (Greek of the time). 

Let me provide an example of how the same activity has forms which are eternal, yet are instantiated with content which is temporal (and conditioned by what is available existence).

It us universal in the animal kingdom over history then when we are hungry, we eat. When thirsty we drink.

What constitutes food and beverage is dependent upon availability, affordability; cultural and perhaps religious permissions or restrictions.

Some eat the meat of cows, others not.

Some eat pork and shellfish, but not all. 

Some drink alcohol, abstaining from its consumption is part of the way others quench their thirst.

The role of eternality of consciousness is how vital vibrant beings utilize conciousness to navigate life. 

They look to what is universal over time, and apply local temporal factors in how to address and apply them.

The process in as long as conscious beings are here to do it as a genus and species.

Individuals come and go.

The process endures and survives.

It modifies over time.  

Excellent and splendid inquiry.

You have done this before?

Of course you have.

Please continue.

You do it so well.




pat wilson
1.1.4  pat wilson  replied to  Enoch @1.1.3    8 months ago

You are the best, Enoch !

pat wilson
1.1.5  pat wilson  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.4    8 months ago

This site is blessed to have members like you !

1.1.6  author  Enoch  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.4    8 months ago

Dear Friend Pat: To quote that great philosopher and theologian Pee Wee Herman, "I know you are, but what am I"?



1.1.7  author  Enoch  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.5    8 months ago

Dear Friend Pat: Right back atcha.



Perrie Halpern R.A.
2  Perrie Halpern R.A.    8 months ago

I am having a very hard time with the subject matter. Not sure where to start. Can you offer some guidance? 

2.1  author  Enoch  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2    8 months ago

Dear Friend Perrie: This is a big (perhaps one of the biggest) picture questions we can address.

Try this on for size.

What are the major categories of things to which to relate in your life?

The late philosophical anthropologist from M.I.T. Houston Smith suggest three.

We all have to relate to ourselves, living beings around us and all the rest of our material environment.

How should we get on with ourselves, others, and the world to best live our lives?

Why does it matter how we live our lives?

Once you have this on a personal level, abstract to seek answers to the same questions for all humans over human history.

Start small, and get larger.

Climb up the great chain of being one link at a time.

See where the journey takes you.

Doing this can provide focus and motivation to live life most fully in your time.

It can also leave the planet in better shape for you young ladies and their families now and in future.

The world gets better one good act at a time.

I hope this is helpful.

Super question.

Pleased you helped us out by bringing it up.

P.S. As an example, I am working with the many good people in a pair of communities and their sub divisions to improve working and social relations. 

Great progress to date.

There are more good people who, when focused and given the tools will build bridges of fellowship, and peaceful houses than there are those  who re not that way.

The latter err in living out their lives with hatred in their hearts.

No good ever comes from that.

I was specifically brought into this because I am acceptable to all major parties.

They want peace over conflict.

Acceptance over rejection.

Love over hate.

They get it.

By pushing ourselves on the big issues, we can find guidance and desire to make things we want better turn out that way.

Here is to good over evil.



Perrie Halpern R.A.
2.1.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Enoch @2.1    8 months ago

Recently, I have been feeling a bit lost in my world on so many levels and I have been thinking about the big picture. In fact, I am not sure I even matter at all. If I make a difference currently. Not a pitty party mind you. Just trying to suss things out. 

2.1.2  author  Enoch  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.1    8 months ago

Dear Friend Perrie: Be patient.

Just getting the questions right is an important first step.

The answers will come.

Some from thought and study.

Others from interactions themselves.   

No hurry.

Over time, the smart money is on you.



2.1.3  Al-316  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.1    6 months ago

Perrie, of course, you matter. We all matter. We all rub off on one another every time we meet.

In your particular case, you have created and maintain this platform which enables us to do all this great rubbing.

So yes, Perrie, you do matter. I just proved it. 

2.1.4  author  Enoch  replied to  Al-316 @2.1.3    6 months ago

Dear Friend Al-316: You do prove what we al know, but forget all too often. 


Well done indeed!


Split Personality
2.1.5  Split Personality  replied to  Al-316 @2.1.3    6 months ago

So glad to see you both Al   and Enoch !

2.1.6  author  Enoch  replied to  Split Personality @2.1.5    6 months ago

Dear Friend Split Personality: Wonderful to see you again.

You brighten my day with your presence here.


Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.


Split Personality
2.1.7  Split Personality  replied to  Enoch @2.1.6    6 months ago

Good to see you, you have been missed.

2.1.8  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @2.1.7    6 months ago

me too rabbi. in light of current events, I was a bit concerned.

2.1.9  MAGA  replied to  Al-316 @2.1.3    6 months ago

In my belief system everyone matters.

2.1.10  CB   replied to  Enoch @2.1.4    6 months ago

My goodness! It's you. It's great to know you are here through all the affliction in your area!!! Peace be unto you and how is Mrs. E? How are your travels going? Where your 'mission' detoured by all this suffering around and about home?

2.1.11  Al-316  replied to  Split Personality @2.1.5    6 months ago

The feeling is mutual, my friend.

pat wilson
2.1.12  pat wilson  replied to  Enoch @2.1.6    6 months ago

It is so good to see you here ! I think it was 3 or 4 months ago (?) that you said you would be gone for a while. Glad you're back, we need your wise words !

3  Kavika     8 months ago

I found it interesting your explanation of the Star and the triangles within it. 

We use the circle for much the same reason

The circle has always been an important symbol to American Indians. It represents the sun, the moon, the cycles of the seasons, and the cycle of life to death to rebirth.

Labyrinth mandalas have been used by Native Americans to represent birth, death, rebirth, and/or the transition from one world to the next.

Again the Medicine Wheels has been used by American Indians for thousands of years and like the Star and triangles represents life in its whole. 

You've seen me use the term ''Gakina Awiiya'' (we are all related) this is very much part of our ''circle'' but the meaning becomes more complex as to us it includes all living things including plants, trees etc. Each living thing has a soul. That is not something  that religions believe in.  

We do not separate the human from other living things as it takes all to make the world.  

''Attain redemption''

I'm not sure about this. What are we attaining redemption from? To us we do not believe in many of the Judo Christian beliefs so I'm making an assumption with the term and it's meaning. 

I suppose that the closest we come to redemption is living in balance or as we know it, "Walking the Red Road",

3.1  author  Enoch  replied to  Kavika @3    8 months ago

Dear Brother Kavika: One of the points of the triangle of relations is the world.

That includes all matter, vital and inanimate.

Humans, other animals, plants, rocks bodies of water etc.

We support your saying about us all being related.

Everything on the planet.

Redemption means different things to different peoples.

Living in harmony with what is here, is created is as Jewish as it is Indigenous American.

No surprise there.

For Jewish People, redemption is the completion of the process of history.

It brings about the reunification of the primordial light of G-d scattered when the Creation happened.

The role humans play in this is to actualize our Divine Potential (Nitzotzot Yehudim, or Ah Pintele Yidden). 

Thanks for sharing the wisdom of your people's ways.

The more we learn about each other, the more we understand we are all members of the same human family. 

We have more in common, more than unifies than is different and separates.

We are indebted for a great post.






Raven Wing
3.2  Raven Wing  replied to  Kavika @3    8 months ago

Very well explained, Kavika. I have been trying to find a way to explain the beliefs of the Cherokee in regards to all life here in earth. Indeed, the Medicine Wheels is how Native Americans represent the way life is realized here on earth. It is true that, unlike Christian beliefs, Native Americans believe in life beyond their earth bound plane. 

Mother Earth and Father Sky are the ones who provide for all live things here on earth, and it is not limited to human beings. Each living organism, no matter how infinitesimal, plays an important part in preserving the planet for the survival of all. 

As the world changes over time so does the environment. Thus, we see some species die out and new ones develop. Climate change plays a large part in the process, and if we are all to survive, we must all realize that we must find a balance and Harmony among all living things in order to achieve that end.

We must also realize that, when we lose one species there will be an emptiness that will have an effect on the overall quality and success of the survival of all. 

Indeed....we are one. We are all connected. One cannot survive without the others. That is the the circle of life and death. And the only way to do this successfully is to recognize the importance of maintaining the level of Harmony among all.

No one of us is any more important than another, and no one of us is less important than another. Native Americans believe, and teach, that there is a life beyond the bounds of earth, and when we are no longer bound to the earth by our human bodies, our Spirit will move on to the next steps of our own eternal journey. 

What is most important, is that while we are bound here on earth we must do all we can to make sure that we respect Mother Earth and Father Sky and ensure that those who come after us will find a world that is better than when we found it.

3.2.1  author  Enoch  replied to  Raven Wing @3.2    8 months ago

Dear Sister Raven Wing: Thanks for an illuminating contribution.

I am always happy when you and Brother Kavika share the wisdom and values of Indigenous American Nations.  

I want a s wide a table of ideas presented as possible. 

We are grateful to you both for so sharing.



Raven Wing
3.2.2  Raven Wing  replied to  Enoch @3.2.1    8 months ago

There is another aspect of the relations with others, and with ourselves; 

What do we expect of ourselves as human beings regarding our interactions with others? What we expect of ourselves is also as important as what others expect of us. As human beings we relate to others by speech, sign language, writing, body language, tone and expression. Through respectful communication we can find a balance of mutual understanding and Harmony. 

In the Cherokee culture there is an expectation among the members of the Tribe to treat each other with dignity, respect, compassion, tolerance and acceptance. In order to achieve the necessary Harmony among the members of the Tribe that will help provide for survival of all, there is the teaching of what men and women should do in order to promote this important part of their lives.

They are called a Good Man and Good Woman. This teaching lays out what is expected of the men and women of the Tribe to ensure the important Harmony that is needed for survival of all members of the Tribe.

So what is a Good Man and Good Woman?

Good Man

The good man, in the Cherokee, neither expresses anger, nor gives others occasion for expressing anger. The basic principle of conservative values is Harmony. The principles explain for Cherokees much of the phenomena of nature, defines Man's place in nature, and it establishes norms of proper conduct among men. This principle of Harmony appears to direct those Cherokees today, cautiously and at virtually any cost, to avoid discord. The emphasis in its applications is, thou shalt not create disharmony. The conflict disallowed in Cherokee human relations is conflict between two men or several, face-to-face, open and direct.

A good man is a man who avoids conflict with his fellows. He asserts his own rights cautiously; he avoided situations which might entail conflict; and he withdrew from men who were contentious or disrespectful. Harmony was essential. The harmony ethic is maintained by the recommendation that a good Cherokee be a "quiet" man "avoiding disharmonious situations". 

The essential measure of a good man was the ability to maintain cautious, quiet relations, avoiding clashes of interest. Men were expected to honor others who, by that measure, were good, and were expected to hope that they might approximate that goal, as an ultimate achievement in their later years, such as being an Elder of the Tribe or a Priest.

Good Woman

Women controlled many of the fundamental institutions of society among the various Iroquois and Tribes similarly organized, such as the Cherokee. Descent of blood or citizenship in the clan, and hence in the Tribe, is traced through the Mother. Women in the Cherokee society are equal to men. They can sit in Councils as equals. Although, it is not that common for women to do so, by their own choice. 

Clan kinship followed the Mother's side of the family. The children grew up in the Mother's house, and it was the duty of an Uncle on the Mother's side to teach the boys how to hunt, fish, and perform certain Tribal duties.

While the men build the houses, the women own the houses and their furnishings, as well as any land in the marriage. Marriages were carefully negotiated, but, if a woman decided to divorce her spouse, she simply placed his belongings outside the house.

Cherokee women worked hard. They cared for the children, cooked, tended the house, tanned skins, wove baskets, and cultivated the fields. Men helped with some household chores, but, spent most of their time hunting or protecting the Tribe.

In addition, a “Good Woman” is also to be respectful of all other members of the Tribe. She is to set a good example for her daughters and teach them how to be good wives and carry out their duties as a productive member of the Tribe.

The “Good Woman” should also conduct herself in a way that ensures Harmony among the other women in the Tribe, and assist them how and whenever needed. The women of the Tribe are the foundation of the Tribe, and Harmony must be maintained to ensure the ability of working together in an efficient and productive manner. It is the job of the younger women and girls to care for all the children while the older women perform the necessary chores to keep the homes and Tribe in good order and functioning to the benefit of all. The saying that the “children belong to the Tribe” is an example of this practice.

Because of the above mentioned facts, among the Iroquoian Tribes; the Cherokee, Susquehanna, Hurons, and the Iroquois, the punishment for killing a woman of the Tribe was double that exacted for killing a man.

3.2.3  author  Enoch  replied to  Raven Wing @3.2.2    8 months ago

Dear Sister Raven Wing: The late Professor Houston Smith would have been most pleased with your response.

You addressed in all your contributions here how best to relate to self, other life forms; and all else on the planet in peace, harmony and sustainable co-existence.  

These are strong points among Native American Nation Cultures.

Wisely accomplished.

Great work.



3.2.4  Al-316  replied to  Raven Wing @3.2    6 months ago

When I am gone from NewsTalkers, you are one of the people I miss the most.jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg

Raven Wing
3.2.5  Raven Wing  replied to  Al-316 @3.2.4    6 months ago

Oh how very sweet of you!. And I miss you very much when you are not here as well. I miss our great conversations and interesting subjects.

I am so very glad to see you are back with us. I look forward to have many conversations with you again. jrSmiley_15_smiley_image.gif

Dismayed Patriot
4  Dismayed Patriot    8 months ago

"We can even choose not to choose."

There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that
They've been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotus-Land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose free will

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
That's far too fleet

Free Will - Geddy Lee, Neil Peart & Alex Lifeson

I love that song, just had to share before I get to "the point".

Finally, the point of it all, Redemption.

I was with you all the way up to this point. Humanitarian existentialists do share that ideal, to "become what we can most achieve through how we live our existence". But when you come to the supposed "point of it all", claiming it's "redemption" is, I believe, seriously flawed.

Let's look at the definition of that word:

Redemption: noun - 1. the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil. 2. the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for payment, or clearing a debt.

So in either definition, you have to be accepting that we, as humans, are inherently burdened with sin, error or evil. Some believe the "redemption" in the bible follows more the 2nd definition of "clearing a debt", which would first require accepting that such a debt exists.

So while I believe in being your best self, why would I want to burden myself with the belief that I have a debt to pay off or some sin to be redeemed of. That narrative only plays with the belief in some external arbiter of laws which we apparently broke just by being born. Why would anyone intentionally saddle their children with the belief that they are imperfect sinners who have no chance of salvation but to throw themselves on some invisible beings mercy? And of course, this is an invisible being no one can prove exists and there are about as many different versions of as there are people.

So I agree with the desire to actualize "our potential, becoming what we can best be through most fully and morally living our lives seems on the face of it a worthy goal for all humankind." But we need to understand and accept that "morality" or "moral living" is subjective, and as such is, by its nature, rather fluid.

4.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4    8 months ago
So while I believe in being your best self, why would I want to burden myself with the belief that I have a debt to pay off or some sin to be redeemed of.

Perhaps redemption isn't for ourselves as individuals, but for society as a whole.  I think the being our best selves could be seen as redemption in that we could be making atonement for the evil acts of the generations that have gone before us.  By supporting civil rights, we atone for slavery.  By striving for greater acceptance of those who look or speak or worship differently from ourselves, we atone for wars made on those who looked or spoke or worshipped differently from our ancestors.  No, we ourselves did not own slaves, or start wars, but we can make the conscious decision to take on the responsibility to see that our own and future generations have a more enlightened and beneficent view than our ancestors did.  I think that could be compatible with either a religious or secular view.

4.1.1  author  Enoch  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1    8 months ago

Dear Friend Sandy: I agree strongly with each and every point you made. 

Your very insightful post addresses the main issues posed in this discussion.

The individual and the collective.


We are most grateful.

Thanks. P&AB.


4.1.2  author  Enoch  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1    8 months ago

Dear Sandy: Among the very interesting and vital points you raised is that of slavery.

It exists today.

The forms are somewhat different than in times past.

Even then, it meant different things to varying societies.

One egregious example of slavery today is the multi billion dollar global sex slave trade.

The daughters, often pre-teen are bought from poor families unable to care for all their children.

The desperate parents need the cash.

The parents are promsied the girls, and sometimes boys will be sent to first world countries where they will be given jobs taking care of the children of others, and doing household and yard chores.

The children and teens are rapidly turned in to sex slaves.

They are abused, and exploited.

This is morally reprehensible in each and every way it can be so.

Another example of slavery is the practice of wage slaves. 

Paying people minimum wages part time with no benefits.

In essence, kicking them while they are economically down so they cannot get up.

This is not only costing societies their middle classes.

It also is indelibly staining their souls.

There are other examples.

The point is clear.

Where there are people to objectify, exploit, abuse and misuse it will happen.

not always in the same way.

Tragedy never the less.

On Yom Kippur that day of days of atonement there is a prayer containing the Al Chet recitation. 

We beat our chests above the heart and recite sins for which we must atone in order to repent.

The sins are all in the plural firm.


Even if we did not commit them, in moments of weakness someone else did, and we stood by passively instead of reaching out and offering to help we are considered in my heritage just as guilty as those committing the sin.

We are to be the keepers of our brothers and sisters, all in the human family.

Part of our redemption is being there for others when needed and wanted.



4.1.3  sandy-2021492  replied to  Enoch @4.1.2    8 months ago
Even if we did not commit them, in moments of weakness someone else did, and we stood by passively instead of reaching out and offering to help we are considered in my heritage just as guilty as those committing the sin.

We are to be the keepers of our brothers and sisters, all in the human family.

Part of our redemption is being there for others when needed and wanted.

I think that does a good job expressing what I mean by societal redemption.  None of us has engaged in the trafficking of sex slaves, nor in wage slavery, but as members of society, we have an obligation to oppose those who do.

I'm a member of our local Ruritans, a service organization.  We generally have speakers at our meetings who present local needs that we may sponsor.  A recent one was a state trooper who is assigned to a unit that combats human trafficking, and he said wage slavery is rampant in our area.  People cross the border thinking they have a legitimate job lined up and chance at citizenship, only to be forced by their "sponsors" to work for little or no money, sometimes sleeping in a storage room at a restaurant, with no idea of their rights and also no idea that their "sponsors" are preying on them illegally.  Add in a language barrier, and it's very unlikely that they would or could seek help, or that anyone here would understand them if they did.

4.1.4  author  Enoch  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.3    8 months ago

Dear Friend Sandy: Hats off to you for your good work with Ruritans.

Kudos to them for the good things they do.

Best thing to do for those of us not in law enforcement is, "If you see it, say it".

Chat with law enforcement, and/or advocacy organizations and civil rights lawyers.

They are here.

They are committed.

They are equipped to begin work on the problem.

Co-ordinate with authorities and advocates.


Evidence is needed.  

Work with and through, support not for profits like Congregations etc. to provide alternatives to the situation of those being exploited and abused.

That involved working with the community of commerce and industry.

Have them boycott trade with entities who violate humanity.

Encourage them to train and hire those in need of an honest days pay for an honest days work.

Patronize those who do.

Business wants profit.

Let them earn it.

Great post Sandy.

Top drawer!



4.1.5  sandy-2021492  replied to  Enoch @4.1.4    8 months ago
Best thing to do for those of us not in law enforcement is, "If you see it, say it".

Yes, in this case, they have the funding they need.  What they don't always have is information.  So their request to us was - keep your eyes open.

5  author  Enoch    8 months ago

Dear Friend Dismayed Patriot: Thanks for both sharing the song lyrics, and your point on how one part of one religion defines redemption. 

I like the song lyrics.

They speak to me. 

I am sure to others as well. 

We are grateful for your posting them. 

That definition is not true for, or characteristic of what is going on in my heritage.

For us, as Rosenzweig advocates, redemption is achieved when the major players of who can elate do most appropriately related where they exist and can.

It is not clear where the definition presented of redemption was quoted.

Certainly it is not form a Jewish Source. 

Care should be taken not to paint all religions as having the same frame of reference and definition of terms as from any religion other than their own.  

That will always miss the mark.

As well, there is not the uniformity of ideas in any one great sustainable and ancient well developed heritage.

There are movements, denominations schools of thought as well as Congregational and individual differences.

For us there is no difference between attaining what we are able to in best living life and redemption.

Redemption, for Rosenzweig is when those major things which can relate do so most positively where they can and do intersect.

The paying off of sin as a debt is not at all how Jewish People think.

For example, on Yom Kippur the most Holy Day of the Year for us, we do Teshuvah.

That means repentance.

For us, repentance is returning our souls to the same pure state in which we were born.

To turn away (Shav) from the corruptyijg influienves around us.

Your argument seems to me directed at, say Christianity and a doctrine of original sin.

At least some and perhaps many branches of its thought.

Best bring that argument to them, not me.

Has not anything to do with Rosenzweig or Jewish Existentialism. 

I do appreciate your bringing this up.

I recommend the following.

Don't paint with too broad a brush.

Be positive.

Best to just state your case as it is.

Ascribing the opposite of it to places where it doesn't exist doesn't help credibility.

It undermines a good point by being off-point negative, and an inaccurate ascription to many and even all alternative views. 

All that said (The Four B's are there for a reason) I am glad you did present one of the humanitarian views on this topic.

Well done Brother.

We are grateful.

This is not an easy topic.

For that reason it will not garner as much traffic and easier ones.

It is still important to take the intellectual journey.

Let each find that way which best helps them navigate the rocky waters of life's sea cruise.

Peace and Abundant Blessings.


Dismayed Patriot
5.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Enoch @5    8 months ago
Your argument seems to me directed at, say Christianity and a doctrine of original sin.

True. I have studied other faiths but none focus so much attention on, and specifically use the word "redemption" as one of their core tenets, as does Christianity. So I admit, I did have that in mind when I made my above comment.

If understood the way I believe you are suggesting, instead of the redemption from some spiritually inherited sin, the closest would be to the beliefs in Ayurvedic philosophy.

  1. All things in the universe, both living and nonliving, are joined together. In fact, everything in the universe is actually made of the same five gross natural elements: space, air, fire, water, and earth (this isn't just a philosophy but a physics fact, though they name break up the atoms in different categories)
  2. There is a deep connection between the self and the environment (there can and should be. I believe this has largely been lost in this era).
  3. We are all initially connected within ourselves, to people surrounding us, to our immediate environment, and to the universe. This balanced connectivity ensures good health (describing those in our orbits and the balance that must exist for any sense of harmony).
  4. We remain healthy if we retain balance, interacting with our environment in an effective and wholesome way.
  5. However, our initial balance is often disrupted by our lifestyles. Choices about diet, exercise, profession, and relationships all have the potential to create physical, emotional, or spiritual imbalances.
  6. This imbalance causes a lack of harmony, and makes us more susceptible to disease.
  7. Human beings are responsible for their choices and actions. We can attain and maintain good health if we make balanced choices that promote connectivity and harmony .

I suppose the way you're referring to redemption, as you said "there is no difference between attaining what we are able to in best living life and redemption" would merely imply that "redemption" is just correcting an imbalance in our lives. If we are out of balance, I suppose you could say that to realign ourselves, finding the balance that promotes harmony, is a form of redemption on an a natural level which requires no "redemption" in the eyes of some higher power.

5.1.1  author  Enoch  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @5.1    8 months ago

Dear Friend Dismayed Patriot: Thanks for another well researched, systematically thought out and very skillful exposition contributed.

The presentation of Ayurvedic philosophy is a significant high point. 

No one else, thought to offer it.

It is through this kind of making one another aware of the diverse yet wise ways of viewing complex and subtle matters that we expand our intellectual horizons, and understandings. 

Splendid, just splendid.

I am very proud of you.

In my heritage redemption is an end goal toward which to strive.

At the micro level we each, in our own lifetime seek to actualize our potential, bring out the best in ourselves for the greater good.

If over the course of human history everyone or at least whatever number is total humanity does this with some degree of success as a family of species image what good we can accomplish?

Seems like its worth a shot.

Consider the outcome of the principal alternative.

What will the planet be like if enough of those who are among us, or even just the most powerful  focus on achieving the very worst they can by causing as much damage as they are able? 

The choice seems to me an easy one.

Take the highest road.

Do all the good you can for all you can in your own time.

Hope that others make the same choice.

Part of this is helping others where you can to bring out the better parts of their selves. 

Let's look to Aristotle for what he advocated on two important issues you raised. 

Part of balance is centering.

Leaning too far to one side or another unbalances us.

Aristotle spoke of taking the middle path.

Extreme conduct and lifestyles are hard to maintain.

They are often dangerous to ourselves, others and the material world in which we live.

He suggests following the middle path.

Moderation in all things.

Certainly there is merit in being moderate in diet.

If we are not the master, for example of consumption of alcoholic beverages, they quickly can become the master of us.

Moderation keeps us in the drivers seat to avoid addictions.

It is as easy to become addicted to money as to booze.

Exploiting others for personal gain, like all aspects of greed and/or avarice does damage.

Study question: What does it mean to be moderately virtuous?

If we took the middle path on that one, would it not produce results that are not at all consistent with virtue?

For any most positive pursuit, being too moderate works against the attainment of thee virtue?  

Maybe for lower and perhaps middle level values the middle path is best.

In its highest forms we cannot be just a little bit pregnant with morality.

In some matters, we are or we are not.

Also, regarding the role of G-d it is fair and for many (including me and mine) significant to address what part G-d plays in all this. Both on the personal and the collective level. As true for one lifetime as for such time as humans are here to play a role in doing the best we can with what we have.   

Aristotle defined G-d in several ways. 

He is the un-created Creator.

First Cause.

Prime Mover.

In a word, Source who will come before all He set in motion, and will be here after it all goes away.

See Phillip Wheelwright's book, Aristotle.  

Many religions and spiritual approaches to life in part define G-d as the ultimate Source of it all.

Not only the material, but values and what to do with them.

This is part and parcel of what Rosenzweig meant when his first triangle, that of what relates contained G-d as Source, the world as Universe in which history may be played out, and man (humans) for our role in taking what is revealed to us on how to bring out our best. Then to do so using the good gifts provided in the most positive way our limitations allow. 

The second triangle is the interplay of the firs three types of things to relate. 

As G-d created the universe and what to do with it, we ought to use G-d as a role model, and for motivation.

Revelation (in the case of my heritage, Commandments {Mitzvoth} give us guidance on how best to live life.

There are times when the least personally attractive, safe or prosperous pathway is also the most virtuous. 

Often it is our personal relationship with G-d as our ultimate role model and source for both knowing what to do, and then choosing to do it that keeps us on the straight and narrow path.

Having what we do with which to work, knowing how to apply it for greatest good; and keeping us focused on wanting to do it no matter the cot are all roles for G-d to those who follow religion.

Those who do not can still, and we all know from personal experience do choose to live life as morally as they can simply because they opine its the best way to travel this mortal path. 

To me it doesn't really matter why or how.

It does that one and all opt to do what they can in their own time. 

Both on their own, and in unison with kindred spirits in humanity.

However people choose ethics over immorality, they have my support if it works for them.

What works for each "them" also works for all the rest of us.

United we stand, divided we fall.

Redemption is the end goal (entelechy) of what can relate (assuming sufficient value of import) doing so with the best possible outcome.

Over a single lifetime.

During the course of human history.

For Rosenzweig as for me and mine, among so many others G-d plays the roles stated.

There are those who seek the same end game without G-d.  

One way or the other, with or without G-d and however defined or characteristics ascribed, all have my support in choosing right over wrong.  

In any and every case it is a point of pride to support, assist and be with and a part of how things play out for the best in and as much as I can swing it past my time.

As we used to say in the Bluegrass State of Kentucky, "Brother, Ya Done Good"! 



Dismayed Patriot
5.1.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Enoch @5.1.1    8 months ago
United we stand, divided we fall.

Something popped out at me as I was reading your thoughts, that line "United we stand, divided we fall" which is of course not new, but I had always thought of it in terms of multiple people being united for a common goal. However, in the context of finding redemption or "balance", it could be seen as the center point of either your or Veronica's stars, where only by allowing equal weight (value/investment) to each point are we able to find balance. Too much weight on any one of them, even if good intentioned, can throw us out of balance. "United" (all points in balance working in concert) we stand, "divided" (frantically going from one extreme to another, overcompensating) we fall.

Many religions and spiritual approaches to life in part define G-d as the ultimate Source of it all.

It also occurred to me when you use "G-d" that it could almost work if you replaced it with "Good". The word good itself was derived from the root that gave us the word "God". What is most peoples concept of "God" if not the embodiment of "good".

"Many religions and spiritual approaches to life in part define Good as the ultimate Source of it all."

He is the un-created Creator.

Not to nitpick, but for a supposed being that is thought to always have existed, "He" seems a petty and narrow box or label. If you're concerned with taking the God of the Hebrews name in vain for fear of offending that God, then a two letter pronoun that can also be used to identify half of humanity seems like something an omnipotent deity might find offensive. And just capitalizing the "H" doesn't really change it. It seems to me that the use of a gender specific pronoun is more than a bit presumptuous for a being that supposedly transcends time and space. If such a being actually exists, I can't imagine it would truly be satisfied with such apparent familiarity. Could you imagine, God shows up and those around this never before seen being shout "He's here!" to which the deity asks "He who?" Why do you think I, the alpha and omega, am anything like lowly ants that have separate genders?" to which the humans reply "But we capitalized the 'H'!...".

"Often it is our personal relationship with G-d as our ultimate role model and source for both knowing what to do, and then choosing to do it that keeps us on the straight and narrow path"

It rings more true when I read it "Often it is our personal relationship with Good...". The fact is no religion can lay claim on morality. Most of the 10 commandments were well known long before Moses, the other half are mostly demands of a jealous God demanding fealty.

"Those who do not can still, and we all know from personal experience do choose to live life as morally as they can simply because they opine its the best way to travel this mortal path."

This is an important point you make which few religious persons seem willing to accept. That non-religious persons can, in fact, be as moral and live moral lives.

If most religious persons were given definitive proof, today, that there is no actual "God" as defined as an all powerful sentient being that created all things, would they really cease to be moral? Would most just go out and start raping and murdering? I don't believe so, and that's because, in my opinion, we were all born with an evolved, inherited and then reinforced, subjective morality based largely on avoiding things that hurt humans and seeking out things that benefit humans. I believe the moral wisdoms that have been handed down through religion were derived from this evolved morality that allowed our ancient ancestors to build the first societies in order to survive. "United we stand, divided we fall". I believe subjective morality, with humans as "special" and thus moral meaning beneficial to humans and immoral means hurting humans, was evolutionarily necessary for the survival of our species. Without "uniting" I believe the bottleneck geneticists have found in early humans 70,000 years ago (some call the Toba catastrophe theory) might have been the end of the human race.

"According to the genetic bottleneck theory, between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago, human populations sharply decreased to 3,000–10,000 surviving individuals. It is supported by some genetic evidence suggesting that today's humans are descended from a very small population of between 1,000 and 10,000 breeding pairs that existed about 70,000 years ago."

Perhaps "Good" saved us. Subjective morality with humans as the focus allowed us to work together for mutual benefit, mutual survival and religion has just been the categorized discipline used to dispense that morality, to solidify "Good" in peoples lives and minds.

5.1.3  author  Enoch  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @5.1.2    8 months ago

Dear Friend Dismayed Patriot: Interesting points and theories all.

Many thanks for sharing.

Grist for the intellectual mill here.

Seems religion, mine and others don't speak to you.

Fine. Don't do them.

In our travels in this life, each must find what works best for them.

What is the way of choice for one may be the least attractive option to another.

I have no problem with this. Some do. Not me.

As you noticed, my thing is to accept that there have been, are and will be differences. 

I respect them and move on.

For me, discovering areas of common concerns are fertile ground for planting trees of coalitions where they can exist. 

Such trees can grow to the skies in advancing humanity.

Your serious thought and views, as you are most respected and welcomed here.

We are indebted.



Dismayed Patriot
5.1.4  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Enoch @5.1.3    8 months ago
Seems religion, mine and others don't speak to you. Fine. Don't do them.

Please don't see my comment as an attack on any religion. I respect all religions that respect the beliefs of others and their right to debate or disagree with each other. There are some religions that do not respect other faiths or those who lack faith in anything supernatural, but I did not mean to imply that was where you were coming from.

In our travels in this life, each must find what works best for them.

Very true, no one walks the path of life in the same exact shoes as anyone else.

What is the way of choice for one may be the least attractive option to another.

I had a Buddhist monk tell me once that all paths can lead one to enlightenment, some are just longer or more painful than others. Some choose to flagellate themselves with whips to bring them closer to what they perceive as "God" or enlightenment, others can simply meditate. Some find enlightenment and peace in their lives quickly and live long lives as practitioners of it. Others wander through life seeking but never finding it. No path is inherently wrong but some paths almost guarantee the destination won't be reached in this life time. I believe the concept of Buddhist "enlightenment" is also just another term for finding balance and living our best life.

5.1.5  author  Enoch  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @5.1.4    8 months ago

Dear Friend Dismayed Patriot: Great points.


As ever we have more in common than separates us.

Your views, as you are always most welcome here. 



6  CB     8 months ago

Hard subject matter. I will try to take it up in the AM Wednesday!

6.1  author  Enoch  replied to  CB @6    8 months ago

Dear Brother CB: We look forward to your contributions.

We always learn and are inspired by them.



7  Veronica    8 months ago

Enoch, you always write such thought provoking articles.  Ones that make me think about how I look at things.  I am not sure where to begin. 

Let's take the "Star". With my path the "Star" is the the Pentagram.  It is a five pointed star with each point representing an element.  The lower right point is for Fire.  The lower left point is for Earth.  The upper right point is for Water. The upper left point is for Air . The point at the top is the Spirit – the place where the elements come together and connect us to source.

I worship Mother Earth and all she entails.  I give thanks to Her daily.  I ask for help, strength and guidance from different gods and goddesses, but mainly from the Triple Goddess the Morrigan.  

Being Wiccan I follow the Power of Three and the concept "do as ye will, harm none".  I have found that this way of living has made my path easier.  If we treat others as we would like to be treated then in the long run peace may descend.  

My goal in this life is try to make the earth a better place for those that follow.  I do not believe in Heaven & Hell, but more of a place to rest the spirit until the decision is made to either come back on a different plane or "retire" in Summerland.  

Redemption is not a part of my path - it is the here & now that I worry over.  Every day it is a question of "Did I treat that person badly" or "should I have done more to help", not for the sake of getting the keys into Heaven, but trying to be the best person I can be.  

I do not know what to tell you about humanity.  I see a lot of darkness when I look at this world.  Pain, corruption and greed.  The thing is when I feel that it is too much and the world is at its end, a glimmer of light bursts through.  I keep telling myself to look for the light - that it is there.

I am not sure if this is what you were looking for Enoch.  If it is not then direct me again.  

Peace & blessing on you & yours...


7.1  author  Enoch  replied to  Veronica @7    8 months ago

Dear Friend Veronica: This is precisely what I sought.

Thank you for providing it.

Yours is an important perspective.

We are dependent on you to provide it.

We remain grateful you have, and did so very well.

We share common ground, yours and mine.

Your concept of "Do as ye will, harm none" is very compatible with the words of Rabbi Hillel.

Do not do to others that which is hateful if done to you.

By loving humanity as we love ourselves the world will be a more peaceful and productive place. 

We, as you do have a concept of an afterlife.

In our cases, there is the vision of the dry bones (physical resurrection of the dead).

There is also the notion of a world to come (Olam ha Bah).

For us, as for you our focus is on living this life, which we are in as best we can. 

If we do maximally well now, later will take care of itself.

Yes, there are for sure and certain problems.

Most do not deny that.

There are also solutions.

We share the notion that being part of the solution is better for one and all than being a part of the problem, or wallowing in it.

Superior contribution Veronica.

Top drawer!

Peace and Abundant Blessings.


8  CB     8 months ago
Actualizing our potential, becoming what we can best be through most fully and morally living our lives seems on the face of it a worthy goal for all humankind. Bringing out our best selves, however we define it, and in whatever way(s) motivates us to so do, is a goal we ought to pursue. So thought the existentialists. Fulfilling our essence through constructive living.

In the Christian faith, the cross, becomes a symbol of the death and resurrection of a man who is our, or I can properly say the physical embodiment of God on Earth. Again, I am addressing the Christian belief, which I hold a share in and deeply cherish. There is no offense meant or aimed at any other individual or groups. Our is a doctrine which extends our Creator into three distinct entities—yet One. 

Think of it after this manner. A symbolic closed three-sided triangle, or even better the three essentials of an egg: Shell, Yoke, and Albumen (egg whites). Our God has demonstrated as Father, Son, Spirit.

I bring up this symbol of the cross, because it is a reminder of the violence and suffering which begins a trail, a path, of its own to peace. Interestingly, people often ask how can such a monstrosity as a man being crucified on a wooden cross, a brutal activity, paradoxically overcome boys, girls, women and men to lead a life modeled on love, charity, and hope. Such an accomplishment in itself is a rebirth.

Out of a people fighting for a land to belong, Israel, issued a faith of belonging to many who were unfamiliar with any concept of god or gods, through a faith of "the one God." Through Jesus we have this combine of God, humanity, and world ultimately coming to be as one—as God makes our home the seat of power. Ideally, what does that make humanity? It will cause us to be precious in the spaces and places of the universe.

There are times in my life when I look over the bloody history of the world, at the viciousness of kings, swords, spears, battles, and wars and I am terrified at the pain and gore. If you have never looked upon gore, it is the most distressing of sights. You simply have to imagine a 'thing' horribly damaged and destroyed (thankfully) and yet recognizable for what it used to be and you are most likely facing a gory image.

God sees us at our worse.  My faith somehow takes all the wars, all the battlefields, all the powerful nations, and all the most dangerous weapons in the world and launches them on an odyssey headed toward beating its swords into plowshares. In one of the most unpredictable of circumstances, this great nation of our discovered the most powerful form of destroying life known to man. And then the strangest "great solution" of all occurred. The people engaged in a fatal goal-seeking end to a World War, offered to share the technology and resources for controlling wars or even expanding wars to the four corners of the Earth with other nations throughout the world.

It was a crucial moment in time. Because becoming the "power that be" on Earth, our leader, as it turned out, turned to the world and shared its knowledge. Humanity has been better off as wars and rumors of wars decreased. Contrarily, the means to destroy life had become the means to save it.

Back to the symbol of the cross. A blood-laden intersection of two perpendicular bars, a painful time in the world, led to the absurd answer of creating a faithful people seeking after God and leading lives of peace with all men, women, and children. The way has not been easy and it has been slow and traitorous, but that is the thing about evolution—isn't it?

8.1  author  Enoch  replied to  CB @8    8 months ago

Dear Brother CB: Thanks for sharing your heritage and its thoughts on this important topic.

We are grateful.

It is my goal that all can come to my discussion threads.

Share what they have to offer, listen with an open mind to their views. 

All in an atmosphere of mutual respect, fellowship and good will.

Your contribution(s) in my threads are always welcomed.

You help us to comprehend an important and oft followed way(s) of looking at and living life.

We are grateful.

Peace and Abundant Blessings Brother.


9  Al-316    6 months ago

When I was in high school, my English teacher gave us an in-class assignment to write an essay on our "Philosophy of Life".

I had no idea what she was talking about. I looked around me and saw all the other students busy scribbling away. The word "philosophy" was not in my vocabulary. The paper I turned in was blank and I have never forgotten that experience of felling so stupid.

That was years ago and I have never felt that stupid again, until now.

I must live in a world of intellectual giants, because I am stymied once again.

Even after reading some outstanding comments and learning some interesting information, I find myself unable to contribute anything on topic.

9.1  author  Enoch  replied to  Al-316 @9    6 months ago

Dear Friend Al-316: You exude Modesty, along with Fellowship and Mercy.

Would that all here could use you as a role model for how to get along with others.

As I see it, you represent the very best of your tradition.

Your philosophy of life is to live it most fully, completely, and honestly.

By using God and His very best representatives as your role model you achieve an amazing and superior way of being there for others.

As philosophies go, yours is a wonderful one.

Please, don't ever change. The world will be much less that it is if you do.

Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.  


9.2  bccrane  replied to  Al-316 @9    6 months ago
my English teacher gave us an in-class assignment to write an essay on our "Philosophy of Life".

I wonder if the teacher was having a bad day and decided to take it out on the students. 

You really didn't need to feel stupid for turning in a blank paper about such an undefined topic, but you should have a laugh realizing that the other students writing, as they did, about something they also had no clue about but were just regurgitating what they learned in school, from family, church, socializing, etc.  The teacher probably took the essays and showed them to the other teachers to have a good laugh.

I, myself, like things in layman's terms, I look at some things written in NT and think "there's some pretty long words in there". 

The destination of life on this planet is to spread to the universe, it's that simple. 

9.2.1  author  Enoch  replied to  bccrane @9.2    6 months ago

"The destination of life on this planet is to spread to the universe."

Most interesting idea.

Maybe with the continual advance of technology. and to escape the pollution we have created here this must and will come to pass.

Thanks for a most interesting post.


9.2.3  Al-316  replied to  bccrane @9.2    6 months ago

Thanks, bccrane. Your comment makes me feel better about my being stupid. 

Thanks to Enoch, should anyone else ask what my philosophy of life is, I can proudly respond:  T o live life most fully, completely, and honestly.

Incidentally, I am sending you a friend request. I could use a friend like you. jrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gif


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