Should We Disincentivize People Who Want To Live On The Coast In Hurricane Zones?

  
By:  John Russell  •  2 months ago  •  69 comments


Should We Disincentivize People Who Want To Live On The Coast In Hurricane Zones?
 

Leave a comment to auto-join group NEWSMucks

NEWSMucks



Heard an interesting segment on TV today. The expert was saying that there are so many people whose homes were ruined or destroyed by Hurricane Ian who dont have flood insurance. The insurance companies charge an exorbitant price for flood insurance in these places, if it is offered at all. 

Yet instead of moving away, people just decide to continue living on the barrier island, or whatever, without insurance. When the home is destroyed in a storm these people are left without a home and sometimes without the financial means to get a new one. 

The kicker to this is that climate change is going to ensure more and more huge storms as the coming decades go by. Since people won't leave these hurricane magnets on their own, maybe, said the expert, we need stronger measures in order to move people away from these vulnerable coastlines. 

At what point is federal or state financial assistance to people who had no insurance and their beachfront homes were destroyed a bad idea? 


Tags

jrGroupDiscuss - desc
[]
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  author  JohnRussell    2 months ago

But....freedom.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 months ago

But....freedom.

That is the insurance companies' job.  When they start refusing to cover the houses, people will stop moving there.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
1.2  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 months ago

Yep...freedom is bad thing... we (the government?) should  prohibit people from living  along the coast.

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
1.3  zuksam  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 months ago

Do away with the National Flood Insurance Program. Since 1968, the federal government has provided subsidized insurance for homeowners who live in flood-prone areas. It's largely a housing subsidy for the Rich Owners of beach front homes. I remember when I was young and most beach houses were small rough seasonal cottages (cheap and replaceable because insurance would cost more than the mortgage), now they've all been replaced by huge multi-million dollar homes since the cost of Government subsidized insurance doesn't reflect the actual risk. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2  Drinker of the Wry    2 months ago

Should we add forest fire zones, tornado areas, earthquake, volcano and non-coastal flood planes? 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
2.1  Greg Jones  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2    2 months ago

Don''t forget blizzards and prolonged cold waves,

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Greg Jones @2.1    2 months ago

Yes, I remember when nuclear winter was the concern.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
2.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2    2 months ago

Already a factor for insurance companies, so your zinger amounted to shit.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
2.2.1  Jack_TX  replied to  Thrawn 31 @2.2    2 months ago
Already a factor for insurance companies, so your zinger amounted to shit.

Out of curiosity, did his point make some sort of noise as it soared over your head?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
PhD Principal
3  Just Jim NC TttH    2 months ago
The expert was saying that there are so many people whose homes were ruined or destroyed by Hurricane Ian who don't have flood insurance.

Doesn't matter in all cases. Not all of the homes destroyed were due to a flood but rather the actual hurricane that blew their houses to pieces or downed a tree or two or blew their car into their garage...........

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
4  gooseisback    2 months ago
Should We Disincentivize People Who Want To Live On The Coast In Hurricane Zones?

Why, people who live on the coast know the danger.  Should we tell people that they can't live in Chicago?

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
4.1  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  gooseisback @4    2 months ago

256

 
 
 
George
Freshman Participates
4.2  George  replied to  gooseisback @4    2 months ago

It could be worse, you could live in New Orleans. Hurricanes and murders. Cantrell is as incompetent as lightfoot at protecting her constituents.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
4.2.1  afrayedknot  replied to  George @4.2    2 months ago

“It could be worse…”

     …by george.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.3  author  JohnRussell  replied to  gooseisback @4    2 months ago

At some point, according to authoritative scientific analysis, living in some coastal areas will be untenable due to the effects of climate change. This is actually inevitable. Should we just ignore reality? 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
4.3.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @4.3    2 months ago
Should  we just ignore reality?

Of course not, depending on your age, you should be thinking about we’re the future beachfront will be.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
4.3.2  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @4.3    2 months ago

There is no scientific evidence that "climate change" affected this hurricane, or would make future storms more frequent or intense. Doomsday "'what if" fear mongering scenarios have proven to be ineffective.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
4.3.3  afrayedknot  replied to  Greg Jones @4.3.2    2 months ago

“There is no scientific evidence that "climate change"…”

Just stop.

It’s one thing to be willfully ignorant, it’s another to spread that ignorance about. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
4.3.4  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @4.3    2 months ago
At some point, according to authoritative scientific analysis, living in some coastal areas will be untenable due to the effects of climate change. This is actually inevitable. Should we just ignore reality? 

Sounds like that problem will solve itself.

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
4.3.5  gooseisback  replied to  JohnRussell @4.3    2 months ago
At some point, according to authoritative scientific analysis, living in some coastal areas will be untenable

Wow, Obama recently bought a home on the coast, you would think he would know better. 

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
4.3.6  gooseisback  replied to  afrayedknot @4.3.3    2 months ago
"climate change" affected this hurricane, It’s one thing to be willfully ignorant, it’s another to spread that ignorance about. 

Show us this scientific proof!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
4.3.7  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  gooseisback @4.3.5    2 months ago
Obama recently bought a home on the coast, you would think he would know better. 

Which one, last year they bought a $12M home on Martha's Vineyard and this year they are building one on Oahu?

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
4.3.8  gooseisback  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.3.7    2 months ago
Which one,

Good point forgot about the Oahu, he must be a real dumbass. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
4.3.9  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.3.1    2 months ago

Hell , i have already been to the tops of the rockies in my area , and have always found sea shells , thing is many dont know wyoming was once under water covered by an ocean , a couple few million years ago.

 Climate change .... the climate on this planet has been changing since day one  and nothing any life form that ever existed  could do a thing to change the climate or the weather .

 40 years ago we were suppose to be in an ice age by the year 2000 or right about now any way . before that th ozone hole was going to get us all....

 the types of changes being predicted now , takes millions of years at the least to take effect and have any affect, and by then , we will all be dead and gone and returned to the basic elements we are made up of . with any luck maybe we all can become one big gas pocket ....one last fart of humanity ....

 
 
 
MonsterMash
Sophomore Participates
4.3.10  MonsterMash  replied to  JohnRussell @4.3    2 months ago
At some point, according to authoritative scientific analysis, living in some coastal areas will be untenable due to the effects of climate change. This is actually inevitable. Should we just ignore reality?

The Obama's don't seem worried about it with two of their homes being ocean front property.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
4.3.11  Greg Jones  replied to  afrayedknot @4.3.3    2 months ago

"Just stop"

Prove me wrong! Put up or shut up.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
4.3.12  Thrawn 31  replied to  Greg Jones @4.3.11    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
4.3.13  al Jizzerror  replied to  gooseisback @4.3.6    2 months ago

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
4.3.14  al Jizzerror  replied to  gooseisback @4.3.8    2 months ago
Good point forgot about the Oahu, he must be a real dumbass.

Wait...  How can you be a climate denier* and call someone "a real dumbass" for owning beachfront property?

* In responce to a "climate change" comment you said:  "Show us this scientific proof!" 4.3.6

 
 
 
Revillug
Freshman Guide
4.4  Revillug  replied to  gooseisback @4    2 months ago
Should we tell people that they can't live in Chicago?

I tell all my friends not to move to Chicago.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
4.4.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Revillug @4.4    2 months ago

Apparently they are listening as Chicago continues to lose population.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.4.2  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.4.1    2 months ago
Feel free to stop embarrassing yourself at any time. 
=============================================================
About 2.75 million

Chicago’s population increased slightly overall, to about 2.75 million. So in a new map where all 50 wards are supposed to be of substantially equal population, each should have about 55,000 people. If at least 41 aldermen agree on a single map by Dec. 1, then those boundaries become the standard for the 2023 municipal election.
original
www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/chicago-gained-latino-and-lost-black-residents-in …
 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
4.4.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @4.4.2    2 months ago
Feel free to stop embarrassing yourself at any time.

The peak population of Chicago was 3,620,962 in 1950, today it is 2,696,555 or about 25% smaller.

I don't feel embarrassed, but thanks for the offer.

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
5  Hal A. Lujah    2 months ago

This hurricane was even cat 3 in the middle of the pan handle.  I’d never consider moving to Florida for more reasons than that, but that alone should give any thinking human pause before locating there.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
5.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @5    2 months ago

What are the odds of being hurt or killed in a hurricane there?

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
5.1.1  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1    2 months ago

Having your home and all your possessions ripped from the foundation and strewn across the county is downright traumatic.  That’s what this is about.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
5.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @5.1.1    2 months ago

Have you always been so materialistic?

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
5.1.3  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1.2    2 months ago

It’s materialistic to care about the entirety of your belongings, including your home?  Umm, in that case yes.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
5.1.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @5.1.3    2 months ago

Material is replaceable and you can't take it with you.

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
5.1.5  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1.4    2 months ago

Material is replaceable and you can't take it with you.

Not everything is replaceable, and why would anyone want to raise their risk of having to replace everything they own anyways?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
5.1.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @5.1.5    2 months ago

Loved ones aren't replaceable, furniture is.  Americans seem to have a growing  obsession with things.  They rent additional storage to shelter all the things that don't fit in their residence,  As I get older, I'm becoming more of a minimalist.  It simplifies life to constraint on the most important, enjoyable aspects.

That said, I'm still hanging on to all my vinyl albums.

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
5.1.7  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1.6    2 months ago

I’m the Craigslist king.  I look for the best stuff at the best price, then I eventually sell it back into the market or give it to goodwill.  I would never store anything I can’t use.  I like my possessions to have a story.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
5.1.8  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @5.1.7    2 months ago

Good deal, good attitude.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.1.9  bugsy  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @5.1.7    2 months ago

I like Goodwill's auction site. A lot of good things there and can find good deals for things you really like to resell.

I know someone that buys sports memorabilia from there and sells it online for retail prices.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
5.1.10  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  bugsy @5.1.9    2 months ago

I never knew that Goodwill had an auction site. Can you please give me the addy?

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.1.11  bugsy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.1.10    2 months ago

Sure...its shopgoodwill.com

You can make your own account to make it easier to manage the auctions you are participating in.

You can also narrow auctions down to areas of the country. For instance, for you, you can limit your search or your general auction to certain areas of New York. If you win an auction, you can skip the delivery fees and just go pick it up from whatever distribution center you want.

Since I live in Jacksonville, I can just do a search for auctions in Jacksonville, not individual stores, just auctions that are ran from their distribution center. I win an auction, I just give them a heads up I'm coming, set up a time and date, and pick up the item. Otherwise I pay the delivery fees.

Pretty easy....and dangerous...actually.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.2  bugsy  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @5    2 months ago
This hurricane was even cat 3 in the middle of the pan handle

Well that's completely wrong....as it never went into the panhandle.

Should we have a geography lesson today?

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
5.2.1  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  bugsy @5.2    2 months ago

Pardon me, peninsula is the p word I was looking for.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
6  charger 383    2 months ago

This is another reason overpopulation needs to be addressed

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
6.1  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  charger 383 @6    2 months ago

Address global overpopulation?  That sounds a little scary.  What do you have in mind?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
6.1.1  charger 383  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @6.1    2 months ago

It is scary.  First step is to get it seen as the thing that makes most problems worse.   

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7  Kavika     2 months ago

The federal flood insurance program was bailed out to the tune of $16 billion in 2018 and a proposed $21 billion in 2021. Soon it will not be manageable at all. 

In Florida currently, the number of insurance companies that have pulled out is astounding and six more joined the ranks this year. I'm sure after Hurricane Ian more will be leaving.

DeSantis and the Florida legislature are scrambling to find a solution.

I live in Florida but chose not to live at the beach but at a beautiful inland location simply because I didn't want to be running from hurricanes at 80 years old and I didn't want the financial responsibility of trying to rebuild when the hurricanes hit.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
7.1  bugsy  replied to  Kavika @7    2 months ago

Good to know you are OK.

I live on the westside of Jax and only received 30 to 40 MPH winds with a few higher gusts. We lost power for about an hour yesterday morning. I was at work at the time so nothing noticed.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.1.1  Kavika   replied to  bugsy @7.1    2 months ago

Good to know that you didn't have any problems. 

Being in one of the few places in Florida that escaped the damage we didn't even lose power and had light rain for 2 days, that was it. 

My friend lives in Ft. Meyers and his home is heavily damaged, not livable at the moment if ever. He his wife and 3 dogs evacuated the day before.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
7.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @7    2 months ago
The federal flood insurance program was bailed out to the tune of $16 billion in 2018 and a proposed $21 billion in 2021. Soon it will not be manageable at all. 

Y'know... we found 20 times that much to bail a bunch of kids out of their student loans.  

There is nothing about that program that accurate premiums won't cure.

And.. glad you're OK.  How many hurricanes have you been through now?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.2.1  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @7.2    2 months ago

I just saw something where the debt forgiveness is being scaled back. 

If you include typhoons 10 or 11.

The worst was Iniki which hit Kauai in 1992. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
7.2.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @7.2.1    2 months ago
I just saw something where the debt forgiveness is being scaled back. 

I read that also.  Procedural issue.

If you include typhoons 10 or 11.

I went through 8 during my time in Florida.  My folks were there for Andrew back in '92, and Mom survived the summer of love in 2005.  She got hit 5 times that year.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
7.3  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Kavika @7    2 months ago

Isnt that what the drist of the article is about really? I remember back in the 90s the flooding that occured in the mid west and the government buying up all those properties or simply condeming them for human habitation  along the flood plains , it was just too expensive to keep rebuilding , and insurance companies were balking at providing coverage leaving it to the feds to step in and do so .

Normally i think the solution would be a simple one with all the data available really , those that choose to live in risk prone areas are the ones that should rightly foot the bill if they choose to take the risk .

 i am roughly 80 miles from yellowstone, less as the crow flies  , if that super volcano decides its now time to pop its top , i wont be around to witness the aftermath ( maybe i will  and THAT is wishful thinking ) sure as hell hope im not like woody harrelson in that movie 2012 ......but given the right amount of warning i can see myself sitting outside with an adult beverage watching one of natures most awsome fireworks displays with a front row seat .

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.3.1  Kavika   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @7.3    2 months ago

Yes, it is the grist of the article. It's how will it be implemented and to whose detriment. As I mentioned earlier those money are not going to be affected, it's those that do not have unlimited funds that will bear the brunt of any changes.

If the super volcano goes off you'll not have to concern yourself with anything, she will have taken care of that for you.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
7.4  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Kavika @7    2 months ago

My parents have a place on the Intracoastal. I think they may have to reconsider selling. My dad will not be happy about that. My aunt lives in Sarasota, so she basically got a direct hit. It was flood waters that mostly got her.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
8  Jack_TX    2 months ago
The expert was saying that there are so many people whose homes were ruined or destroyed by Hurricane Ian who dont have flood insurance. The insurance companies charge an exorbitant price for flood insurance in these places, if it is offered at all. 

Expert?  Meh.   

Flood insurance is available almost everywhere in FL, and the premium averages less than $50/mo.

Yet instead of moving away, people just decide to continue living on the barrier island, or whatever, without insurance. When the home is destroyed in a storm these people are left without a home and sometimes without the financial means to get a new one.

Luckily they can sell a lot near the ocean for a lot of money.

Since people won't leave these hurricane magnets on their own, maybe, said the expert, we need stronger measures in order to move people away from these vulnerable coastlines.

What "stronger measures" are we talking about, exactly?

At what point is federal or state financial assistance to people who had no insurance and their beachfront homes were destroyed a bad idea? 

At what point do we start to reconsider other forms of financial assistance to people who don't make good decisions?  Whenever that point is... they need to happen all together.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @8    2 months ago

At what point to we stop funding the Federal Flood Program? Currently have are being bailed out again.

Florida is far from the only problem area when it comes to flooding from hurricanes. Most every state with a coastline has the same problem.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
8.1.1  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @8.1    2 months ago
At what point to we stop funding the Federal Flood Program? Currently have are being bailed out again.

If we price the insurance correctly we won't need to bail them out.

Florida is far from the only problem area when it comes to flooding from hurricanes. Most every state with a coastline has the same problem.

Correct, but Florida has more coastline and it's all in hurricane zones, the entire state is within 300 ft of sea level, and the water table is about 6 ft below ground.  It's the highest risk place in the US, easily.  

So let's just price that risk properly and charge people what it actually costs.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1.2  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @8.1.1    2 months ago

Yes, Florida does have more hurricane zones than other states, but having been in Texas, Port Aransas when that hurricane hit there and Rockport the destruction was huge.

Yes, if the feds charge what the real cost is it will help but remember there are many areas that are not in hurricane zones that are in flood zones that require flood insurance. Many of these are lower and middle class neighborhoods/areas and lenders require flood insurance. 

So what is the solution? is there any good solution?

BTW, Texas is second in hurricanes making landfall.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
8.1.3  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @8.1.2    2 months ago
So what is the solution? is there any good solution?

Sure.  There are several, and most of them would be based on things that we already do with other forms of insurance.

We could convert the NFIP to an old fashioned risk pool program and govern it at the state level.  Before the days of Obamacare, 40 states had health insurance risk pools.  If you were uninsurable because of your cancer or whatever, you could go to the risk pool and get guaranteed issue coverage.  Every insurance company that issued health insurance in that state was required to contribute a portion of the premiums they collected to the risk pool.   So we could easily set up a flood insurance pools state by state and have a portion of all homeowners/renters insurance premiums go into a bucket to backstop claims.

Alternatively, states could require flood insurance be offered as a rider on homeowners/renters policies, and regulate the cost of the rider (like many states do with invitro fertilization coverage).

Or..the simplest (but not cheapest) way would simply be to offer the coverage the way we do now, but price it based on actuarial models by zip code or flood plain code.  It won't be cheap, but at some point we should probably acknowledge that if you can't afford to insure your house you can't afford that house.

but having been in Texas, Port Aransas when that hurricane hit there and Rockport the destruction was huge.

You talking about Harvey?  Yeah, that was bad.   Several gulf regions are particularly vulnerable because they're so close to sea level anyway.  Houston and New Orleans come to mind.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1.4  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @8.1.3    2 months ago

I've thought of the ones you listed all will have a downside, it's which is the worse downside. 

Many people have homes but cannot afford additional insurance. If that happens what do is done for them? We cannot simply move whole areas or force them to move. 

If you have money none of this is a problem, it's those that do not have the means that will be affected the most. 

The state of Florida is dealing with this and the lack of insurance companies and rates are becoming much too expensive for many people. 

Time for dinner, back later.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
8.1.5  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @8.1.4    2 months ago
Many people have homes but cannot afford additional insurance. If that happens what do is done for them? We cannot simply move whole areas or force them to move. 

Well, they either have to pay their own way or we'd have to make somebody else subsidize them.  Homeowners insurance and taxes already go up every year.  

If you have money none of this is a problem, it's those that do not have the means that will be affected the most. 

That's always true.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
9  cjcold    2 months ago

Lived my whole life in Tornado Alley and have yet to see a tornado even though I have actively sought to find one several times. I guess I just suck as a storm chaser.

My 1880 farmhouse that sits on top of a hill has never been touched.

Folk in Florida don't have to go looking for Hurricanes. It's a given that one will find you.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
10  magicschoolbusdropout    2 months ago

The kicker to this is that climate change is going to ensure more and more huge storms as the coming decades go by.

The Director of NOAA, didn't fall for that Don Lemon/Major Left Wing "Knee-JerK' type rhetoric either !

“I don’t think you can link climate change to any one event,” he replied. “On the whole, on the cumulative, climate change may be making storms worse. But to link it to any one event, I would caution against that.

Lemon was "Speechless" after the Directors Comments.......... ummmm, duh, mmmmmm, COMMERCIAL ?

Like Saul ....and Rahm Said :

"Never let a good crisis go to waste ", which is based  upon the points made in Sauls rules for radicals, page 89, in the section marked communication "in the arena of action, a threat or a crisis becomes almost a precondition to communication"

 
 

Who is online




shona1


15 visitors