Anti-Christian Bigotry Is the Last Acceptable Prejudice

  
Via:  1776 Traditional American  •  2 months ago  •  356 comments

By:   CAAP Staff

Anti-Christian Bigotry Is the Last Acceptable Prejudice
 

Sponsored by group The Donald on Newstalkers

The Donald on Newstalkers

The bigotry across the mainstream media, academia, Hollywood, The biggest multinationals, and big tech social media against religion in general and Christianity in particular is overwhelming and blatantly obvious as the points below demonstrate. It’s ok to attack religiosity and religious people and point out the problems with it, but point out the good it does or the positive effects of being a believer or of the belief itself and censorship or worse is swift and certain.  


S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Last week, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution condemning “hate.” It should have condemned Antisemitism, given the ugly comments by Rep. Ilhan Omar, but that’s another issue.

The point is that we live in a time when comments disparaging other religions – especially Islam – will bring on a barrage of criticism, protest, political action, etc. Because of the strict Muslim rules about what is considered blasphemous, even a drawing of Muhammad would be considered “Islamophobic.” So great is the fear of offending Muslims that Amazon has removed products that the Council on American-Islamic Relations objected to, like a bath mat with the words of Muhammad on it.

But Christians … well, no one much cares about offending Christians. In fact, mocking, belittling, and blaspheming Christianity is becoming a bit of a trend in our culture. Anti-Christian bigotry truly is the last acceptable prejudice.

Think about the insults that are hurled at Christians. Or the way devout Christians are often lampooned in movies or on television. If a devout Christian is only depicted as an uneducated fool, it’s almost a relief. Half the time, they’re also violent, hate-filled bigots. 

Just imagine if Hollywood treated other religions the same way. The outrage would ring from coast to coast. Jobs would be lost. But treat Christians as the enemy in your movie, and you’re perfectly safe. 

The best example of this attitude can be seen in the products available on Amazon. The company has gone out of its way to remove products offensive to Muslims. But they still sell products that are deeply offensive to Christians, like: 

  • Merchandise from the anti-Christian band  Marduk , which includes images of a woman using a cross as a sex toy and a demon performing a sex act on the crucified Christ.
  • Toilet covers and bathmats with the face of Jesus on them.
  • A throw pillow that simply declares, “I hate Jesus.”

The hypocrisy on display is astounding. Christianity is the dominant religion of our country. It is the foundation of our government and morality. And yet, Christians are treated as fair game for mockery and insult. 

We cannot allow this anti-Christian bigotry to continue. It is poisonous to our culture and encourages the persecution of people of faith.

Let’s tell Amazon what we think about their double standard in selling anti-Christian merchandise. If you have a Twitter account, send a Tweet to  @amazon  and let them know that this is unacceptable. Or you can write a post on  their Facebook page  and let others know how the most powerful online retailer in the world treats Christians. We’ll also be adding a petition tomorrow, so be sure to watch for our next newsletter!

CAAP has a long history of standing up for Christian rights, and we pledge to continue our fight for religious freedom. Will you act now to help support our work? k

CAAP is joining with those who demand that Amazon extend the same respect for Christians as for other religions and remove offensive items. But we won’t stop there. We must put an end to anti-Christian bigotry with a renewed sense of moral responsibility and respect for our faith.


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MAGA
1  seeder  MAGA    2 months ago

The double standard is clear and shameful—but so be it, one might say. After all, there will always be hypocrites and bigots in the world. But the issue is worth examining because Eisner’s hypocrisy and Valley’s bigotry are symptoms of a larger problem.

According to a July 2014 Pew Research Center poll, Jews hold exceptionally negative attitudes towards Evangelical Christians. Conversely, white Evangelicals hold exceptionally positive attitudes towards Jews. While the stereotype of the ignorant southern Evangelical might make for snarky tweets, collectively, they are far more tolerant of us than we are of them. So which community has a bigotry problem?

If we accept the logic of the aforementioned Forward editorial, had Valley used the actions of one Jew, Muslim, African American, or member of another religious/ethic group to cast aspersions on an entire community, he would’ve been “fired in a flash.” But he’s still on the Forward’s masthead because, to my utter shame and dismay, some parts of the Jewish community consider it perfectly acceptable to demonize Evangelical Christians. https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/christian-news/anti-christian-prejudice-the-last-acceptable-form-of-bigotry-388109/amp

 
 
 
MAGA
1.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  MAGA @1    2 months ago

The hypocrisy on display is astounding. Christianity is the dominant religion of our country. It is the foundation of our government and morality. And yet, Christians are treated as fair game for mockery and insult. 

We cannot allow this anti-Christian bigotry to continue. It is poisonous to our culture and encourages the persecution of people of faith.

Let’s tell Amazon what we think about their double standard in selling anti-Christian merchandise. If you have a Twitter account, send a Tweet to  @amazon  and let them know that this is unacceptable. Or you can write a post on  their Facebook page  and let others know how the most powerful online retailer in the world treats Christians. https://thenewstalkers.com/badfish/group_discuss/9143/anti-christian-bigotry-is-the-last-acceptable-prejudice#cm1356248

 
 
 
CB
1.1.1  CB   replied to  MAGA @1.1    2 months ago
We cannot allow this anti-Christian bigotry to continue. It is poisonous to our culture and encourages the persecution of people of faith.

Tell us what the plan is. And does this plan you have stored up call for lies, deception, and forcibly adding those non-conformists to your numbers? Elaborate on that, please.

 
 
 
cjcold
1.2  cjcold  replied to  MAGA @1    one month ago

I have no problem with being prejudiced against those who believe in mythology and superstition.

 
 
 
MAGA
2  seeder  MAGA    2 months ago

I had lunch this summer with a prospective graduate student at the evangelical college where I teach. I will call him John because that happens to be his name. John has done well academically at a public university. Nevertheless, as often happens, he said that he was looking forward to coming to a Christian university, and then launched into a story of religious discrimination.

John had been a straight-A student until he enrolled in English writing. The assignment was an “opinion” piece and the required theme was “traditional marriage.” John is a Southern Baptist and he felt it was his duty to give his honest opinion and explain how it was grounded in his faith. The professor was annoyed that John claimed the support of the Bible for his views, scribbling in the margin, “Which Bible would that be?” On the very same page, John’s phrase, “Christians who read the Bible,” provoked the same retort, “Would that be the Aramaic Bible, the Greek Bible, or the Hebrew Bible?” (What could the point of this be? Did the professor want John to imagine that while the Greek text might support his view of traditional marriage, the Aramaic version did not?) The paper was rejected as a “sermon,” and given an F, with the words, “I reject your dogmatism,” written at the bottom by way of explanation.

Thereafter, John could never get better than a C for papers without any marked errors or corrections. When he asked for a reason why yet another grade was so poor he was told that it was inappropriate to quote C. S. Lewis in work for an English class because he was “a pastor.” (Lewis, of course, was actually an English professor at Cambridge University. Perhaps it was wrong to quote Lewis simply because he had said something recognizably Christian.) Eventually John complained to the department chair, who said curtly that he could do nothing until the course was over. John took this to mean that the chair would do nothing and just accepted the bad grade.

I suspect that many readers are already generating “maybe .... ” scenarios that fill out this story so that John was actually treated fairly. Blaming the victim is a familiar response to reports of discrimination. Maybe John is just one of those uppity believers who don’t know their place........   

Nevertheless, scholars ought to be concerned that Christians often report that the academy is a hostile environment. Are academics generally glad that such a perception exists? If not, how might it be dispelled? If it is based on genuine experiences, what can be done about a climate that tolerates religious discrimination? If the two stories presented here are merely assailable, anecdotal evidence, then why not gather information on this issue more systematically? Do academic institutions ever try to discover if their Christian students or scholars experience discrimination?

I am hereby calling for such an effort. This could be done through surveys, or focus group discussions, or even just by inviting people to tell their experiences and following up on them, seeing if certain patterns emerge. If these are not the best methods, just think of what you would do in response to reports that a university or academic society was marked by institutional racism or sexism and then apply those same strategies of listening, investigation, and response. Like John with the department chair, however, I too am tempted to be defeatist about the academy being willing even to investigate the possibility of discrimination against Christians, let alone attempt to eradicate it. https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2010/07/30/no-christia

nity-please-were-academics

 
 
 
TᵢG
3  TᵢG    2 months ago

Although this percentage is showing a rapid decline, 65% of Americans still identify as Christian.   Historically Christianity has dominated the USA.    So it is only natural that criticisms of religions will apply mostly to the category of religion most prevalent in the USA.

One could easily offer criticisms of Islam but common sense shows that most people in the USA know Christianity and the Bible far better than we know Islam and the Qur'an.   So, again, naturally the focus will be on the most common religion in the USA and on the religion that is best known.   In both cases, this is the religious category of Christianity.

Further, the same Pew study shows a growing trend in the USA towards unaffiliated.   Much like the trend has been in Europe, as time moves on fewer people are ensnared by religious indoctrination in the USA.  

Personally, I applaud people engaging in critical thinking and not simply following the authoritarian rules of their religion.   And if the newly irreligious are spiritual and believe that there is some greater power then I would submit that, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.   It is hard to imagine harm in a deistic view of reality if someone is considering evidence and reasoning to their own conclusions rather than simply accepting as truth what their religion dictates.

 
 
 
MAGA
3.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @3    2 months ago

Fortunately you don’t get to determine at others believe or why we do or the value of said facts and beliefs.  You only can participate in the secularist cancel culture 

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.1.1  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @3.1    2 months ago

Beliefs and facts are not the same thing. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @3.1    2 months ago
Fortunately you don’t get to determine at others believe or why we do or the value of said facts and beliefs.

I would not want to determine what other people believe.   I am in favor of people thinking critically and rationally coming to sensible conclusions based on good evidence and reason.

 
 
 
MAGA
3.1.3  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.1    2 months ago

[Deleted]

[Refrain from making derogatory personal statements.]

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @3.1.3    2 months ago

I see you have to resort to making things personal.

 
 
 
MAGA
3.1.5  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.4    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.6  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @3.1    2 months ago
Fortunately you don’t get to determine at others believe or why we do or the value of said facts and beliefs.

Well if that be the case-- why do "Christians" keep whining about how their rights are being violated? If that is true-- sounds like "Christians" actually have it pretty good! :-)

 
 
 
MAGA
3.2  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @3    2 months ago
 
 
 
Gordy327
3.3  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @3    2 months ago
Although this percentage is showing a rapid decline, 65% of Americans still identify as Christian.

Only 65%? I thought it would be higher. At least it's showing a good trend.

  Historically Christianity has dominated the USA.   

And yet, some ironically claim to be persecuted, silenced, censored, and whatever else. That's quite odd.

Further, the same Pew study shows a growing trend in the USA towards unaffiliated.   Much like the trend has been in Europe, as time moves on fewer people are ensnared by religious indoctrination in the USA.  

Another good trend. There might be hope for us yet.

Personally, I applaud people engaging in critical thinking and not simply following the authoritarian rules of their religion.

As do I, and it's something to be encouraged, supported, and applauded. It's sad that some might view critical/rational thinking, questioning religious authority, and  science as a bad thing.

  And if the newly irreligious are spiritual and believe that there is some greater power then I would submit that, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.  

It's when one tries to posit their belief as fact or truth that it becomes problematic.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.3.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Gordy327 @3.3    2 months ago
Although this percentage is showing a rapid decline, 65% of Americans still identify as Christian

Some religious folk see the rapid decline as evidence that Christianity is "under attack" when the reality is that statistic just shows fewer and fewer people buy the fantasy narrative religion has been selling for centuries. When fewer and fewer VCR's were selling, it wasn't because VCR's were under attack, it was because they were old and outdated and something better had come along. In the case of organized religion, it's just old and outdated and better explanations have come along thus fewer and fewer folk feel the need to contort or reject logic and reality to appease their dungeon master aka 'pastor' or 'priest'.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.3.2  Gordy327  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.3.1    2 months ago
Some religious folk see the rapid decline as evidence that Christianity is "under attack"

They seem to think christianity is "under attack" whenever anyone says anything remotely negative or challenging. In such a mindset, if you don't agree or go along with them 100%, you're "attacking" them (and probably deserve to go to hell). But then, persecution seems to be a recurring theme in the religion. That might explain the hang up with it.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.3.3  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @3.3.2    2 months ago

It is akin to someone peddling old technology like land lines or even cable TV.   People are moving on to wireless and streaming.   Sure there are die-hards who will cling to the older technology that is more comfortable to them, but it is just a matter of time before the clingers die out and new blood comes in with a fresher perspective to break old traditions.

That is what the Pew study indicates.   It is not that Christianity (religion) is fading due to attack but rather because younger people are not buying it at the same rate as their elders did.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.3.4  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @3.3.3    2 months ago
It is not that Christianity (religion) is fading due to attack but rather because younger people are not buying it at the same rate as their elders did.

The more the younger stop buying into it, the louder the elders complain.

 
 
 
MAGA
3.3.5  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @3.3    2 months ago

Whether we post our beliefs as the facts that they are or we say it’s our rational faith opinion is of no real concern to you.  It’s real enough to us and there’s nothing you can do our say to stop us calling our beliefs facts no matter how much you protest it.  

 
 
 
MAGA
3.3.6  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @3.3.4    2 months ago

The cancel culture of secular progressive bigotry is having a real effect in urban Public schools.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.3.7  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @3.3.5    2 months ago
It’s real enough to us and there’s nothing you can do our say to stop us calling our beliefs facts no matter how much you protest it.  

Well of course nobody can stop you from stating falsehoods.   But when you do, people can certainly illustrate your falsehoods and challenge you to back up your claims.

Your falsehoods remain as comments, they are quoted by your interlocutors and then exposed for what they are.   Best way to change that dynamic is to not claim beliefs as facts or, alternatively, be capable of showing that your claimed fact is indeed a fact.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.3.8  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @3.3.5    2 months ago
Whether we post our beliefs as the facts that they are or we say it’s our rational faith opinion is of no real concern to you. It’s real enough to us and there’s nothing you can do our say to stop us calling our beliefs facts no matter how much you protest it

Actually, it is a concern. Because posting your beliefs as fact is misleading at best and outright lying at worst. Especially if it's refuted by actual scientific evidence and you reject to consider any evidence that contradicts said beliefs, which is intellectually dishonest. While you can call your beliefs facts, expect to be challenged on that and exposed as dishonest and lacking credibility for the attempt, and rightfully so! Belief does not equal fact.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
3.3.9  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  TᵢG @3.3.3    2 months ago

Hey... I miss traditional ANALOG land lines. I have two teens and a "tween" in my house and I would love it if I didn't have to pay $200 a month for cell phones damn it! My husband is very "old school" mentality in regard to technology... he's only 50, so I don't know how soon they'll "die off" and make way to more technological advances. jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Veronica
3.3.10  Veronica  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.3.1    2 months ago
When fewer and fewer VCR's were selling, it wasn't because VCR's were under attack, it was because they were old and outdated and something better had come along.

I like that analogy. 

 
 
 
CB
3.3.11  CB   replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.3.1    2 months ago

Actually it is more like, evil, unrepentant men and women, entered into the Christian faith (from way back even)! The bible writers even warned about them being 'about' masquerading as light ("devils" putting up a front). I have a perfect example of this today: Donald Trump has a staunch Evangelical Christian following (not all Evangelicals however) that hangs their hats on every lie, fable, and conspiracy theory he utters. To the disadvantage of their faith, their God, and those unbelievers who can not see God because of the hypocrisies being perpetrated by a section of the Church which claims to know better.

When Christians are "believable" that is, they stand up for righteousness, decency, and soundness the world considers the Church as a whole as valuable. When the Church becomes petty, ruthless, dishonesty, stingy, and corrupt the world turns away its face and attention. If not go on the attack!

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.3.12  TᵢG  replied to  CB @3.3.11    2 months ago
Donald Trump has a staunch Evangelical Christian following (not all Evangelicals however) that hangs their hats on every lie, fable, and conspiracy theory he utters.

No way.   jrSmiley_97_smiley_image.gif   Who could be so gullible?

 
 
 
Krishna
3.3.13  Krishna  replied to  Gordy327 @3.3.2    2 months ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
3.4  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  TᵢG @3    2 months ago

Yes, well after having a long discussion with one of my Muslim friends, they still follow the Old and New Testaments of the Bible with the Qur'an as the "third book" or installment if you will. I have never read the Qur'an and don't plan to, but if that religion still follows the OT and NT; I ask, how different is Islam to Christianity really? There's extremists on both sides. Are they two sides of the same coin and in violent agreement? I really don't know. I'm just throwing out rhetorical questions.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.4.1  TᵢG  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @3.4    2 months ago

One critical difference is that Islam holds Allah to be Yahweh of the OT.   Jesus, while recognized by Islam, is seen as a prophet like Muhammed.   He is not a god or an hypostasis, but merely a special agent for Allah.   Further, Islam is viewed as Allah’s most recent revelation and thus supersedes the OT and NT.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
3.4.2  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  TᵢG @3.4.1    2 months ago

This is true.

 
 
 
Adam_Selene
4  Adam_Selene    2 months ago
We cannot allow this anti-Christian bigotry to continue. It is poisonous to our culture and encourages the persecution of people of faith.

Just checking  - so Jesus Christ "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" needs who - you? - the Government? - Donald Trump? - to protect his Bride?

The real Church thrived under persecution. If Christianity cannot thrive, tax free,  in the United States it deserves to fail. Paul would be doing mass mailings of epistles to our present so called churches; all whining for protection from well earned societal slights.

Perhaps in a hundred years or so, the now underground churches in China,  where they are truly persecuted, will send missionaries here to establish the Church  again.

 
 
 
MAGA
4.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Adam_Selene @4    2 months ago

The church here is real.  And you are correct in that the more we are persecuted the faster we will grow.  That was the case in the beginning and was in communist countries, and will be again in the days just before the 2nd coming.  The present denial among the secularists and science worshippers that they are the persecutors of believers today is worthy only of mocking laughter at them.   

 
 
 
CB
4.1.1  CB   replied to  MAGA @4.1    2 months ago

"Mocking laughter"? You make a mockery of God each and every time you know who lies and you help explain it away. It is a delusion being enjoyed. Now will you tell me that repeated (daily) lying is not a sin? That is not a sign of a unconverted mind? So, you mock God when you vainly attempt to explain those lies away, and worse convince others that it is of God the Father, Son, and Spirit!

 
 
 
Gordy327
4.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  CB @4.1.1    2 months ago

jrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
MAGA
4.1.3  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @4.1.1    2 months ago

You know who is off topic here.  Whether one supports or opposes you know who is not a Christian defining or salvation affecting issue.  That you as a Christian would side with anti Christians over an issue and mock another believer to unbelievers would grieve God greatly.

 
 
 
Gordy327
4.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @4.1.3    2 months ago
 That you as a Christian would side with anti Christians over an issue and mock another believer to unbelievers would grieve God greatly.

How utterly sanctimonious and meta! As far as "christians" go, CB seems far better than some I've encountered.

 
 
 
CB
4.1.5  CB   replied to  MAGA @4.1.3    2 months ago
Whether one supports or opposes you know who is not a Christian defining or salvation affecting issue.

Okay, now tell me what does our authority in the Bible say about believers who tell lies to and against their neighbors.

  1. How is God the Spirit of Truth to react when being surrounded in a believer's "lie salad"?
  2. What does Paul inform believers about the practice of speaking the truth (Colossians 3:9)?

Go ahead. Let's 'probe' this together and do so spiritually in love.

 
 
 
Krishna
4.1.6  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @4.1    2 months ago
And you are correct in that the more we are persecuted the faster we will grow.

Well if that's the case....since Christianity's followers in the U.S. are not growing fast but are in fact declining in numbers . . . there can only be one logical conclusion:  Christianity isn't being persecuted!!!

 
 
 
MAGA
4.1.7  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Krishna @4.1.6    2 months ago

Right now it’s only being discriminated against in blue cities and states in this country.  Not yet reaching the levels of persecution existing in other countries like Muslim, Hindu, and communist nations but we aren’t going to wait for it to get there here to speak out about it.  

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
4.1.8  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  MAGA @4.1.7    2 months ago

I actually prefer Hindu to most organized religions. I work with a lot of people that belong to that faith. Nicest people I've ever met too. The only ones that I've heard about persecuting the Hindu religion are those of Islamic faith and aren't all faiths persecuted by Islam?

 
 
 
Krishna
4.2  Krishna  replied to  Adam_Selene @4    2 months ago
The real Church thrived under persecution. If Christianity cannot thrive, tax free,  in the United States it deserves to fail. Paul would be doing mass mailings of epistles to our present so called churches; all whining for protection from well earned societal slights.

I'm no expert on Western religions, but it seems to me there are actually two entirely different branches of Christianity that exist in today's world . One branch sets its goal as following the actual teaching of Jesus. The other, the evangelical and other extremist nutcases (including the so-called "MAGA" crowd ),...do not follow the teachings of Jesus-- in fact just the opposite!

 
 
 
bbl-1
5  bbl-1    2 months ago

Bigotry?  Christian bigotry?  Why do the protests get louder when the bigots receive pushback because of their bigotry?

 
 
 
MAGA
5.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  bbl-1 @5    2 months ago

The only bigotry that exists here is that of the secularists, the progressives, and the so called pro science geek squad against Bible believing Christians.  

 
 
 
CB
5.1.1  CB   replied to  MAGA @5.1    2 months ago

Define Bible Believing Christian? Can you?

 
 
 
TᵢG
5.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @5.1    2 months ago

Sure HA, please tell everyone your views on homosexuality.

 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @5.1.2    2 months ago
Sure HA, please tell everyone your views on homosexuality.

Or views on atheists, secularists, most non-christian religions, scientists, ect..

 
 
 
MAGA
5.1.4  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @5.1.1    2 months ago
Bible believer (also Bible -believer, Bible - believing Christian , Bible - believing Church) is a self-description by conservative Christians to differentiate their teachings from others who they see as placing non- biblical or extra- biblical tradition as higher or equal in authority to the Bible .
 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1.5  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @5.1.4    2 months ago
tradition as higher or equal in authority to the Bible .

What makes them less of an authority?

 
 
 
MAGA
5.1.6  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @5.1.2    2 months ago

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
5.1.7  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @5.1.6    2 months ago

In short, you chose to completely dodge my question.   Actually, given your prior answers, you just made a wise choice.

 
 
 
CB
5.1.8  CB   replied to  MAGA @5.1.4    2 months ago

So that is a description as you noted. Now, what is it conservative Christians believe about the Bible? A summarized list, please.

 
 
 
MAGA
5.1.9  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @5.1.8    2 months ago

We believe that the Bible is God's word. The doctrinal statement of Moody Bible Institute affirms, "The Bible, including both the Old and New Testaments, is a divine revelation, the original autographs of which were verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit." 1

Revelation is God's self-disclosure. It is God making Himself known to men. 2 God has revealed himself in a limited way in creation. 3 But the Bible is a form of special revelation. The Bible is "special" revelation in the sense that it goes beyond what may be known about God through nature. 4 It is divine in origin, since in the Bible God makes known things which otherwise could never be known.

The Bible is unique because it is God's revelation recorded in human language. 5 According to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 the words of Scripture are "God breathed" or inspired. This implies that God is the source or origin of what is recorded in Scripture. God, through the Holy Spirit, used human authors to write what He revealed in the Bible. They were not mere copyists or transcribers. The Holy Spirit guided and controlled the writers of Scripture, who used their own vocabularies and styles but wrote only what the Holy Spirit intended. 6 This is true only of the original manuscripts, not the copies or translations. Although the original manuscripts have been lost to us, God has preserved the biblical text to a remarkable degree.

The Bible is verbally inspired. This means that the words of the Bible, not just the ideas, were inspired. What is more, this is true of not just some, but all the words of the Bible. As a result, the Bible is free from error in what it says. Moody Bible Institute believes strongly in the factual, verbal, historical inerrancy of the Bible. That is, the Bible, in its original documents, is free from error in what it says about geography, history and science as well as in what it says about God. Its authority extends to all matters about which the Bible speaks. 7 It is the supreme source of our knowledge of God and of the salvation provided through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 It is our indispensable resource for daily living. 9

Even though the Bible is God's revelation, it must still be interpreted. Interpretation has to do with our reception and understanding of that which God revealed and recorded. 10 Revelation is a divine act. Interpretation is a human responsibility. Divine inspiration guarantees the truthfulness of God's word but not the accuracy of our interpretation. The Bible is infallible in all it affirms to be true and therefore absolutely reliable. We, however, may be fallible in our interpretation of the Bible. https://www.moodybible.org/beliefs/positional-statements/bible/







 
 
 
CB
5.1.10  CB   replied to  MAGA @5.1.9    2 months ago
Divine inspiration guarantees the truthfulness of God's word but not the accuracy of our interpretation. The Bible is infallible in all it affirms to be true and therefore absolutely reliable. We, however, may be fallible in our interpretation of the Bible.

Well, if men and women fail in measures or degrees of interpretation, what good is accuracy in the Bible? Since people can't process it.  You may want to reconsider what you are writing about interpretation.

The Bible is verbally inspired. This means that the words of the Bible, not just the ideas, were inspired. What is more, this is true of not just some, but all the words of the Bible. As a result, the Bible is free from error in what it says.

If the Bible is inspired in its original manuscripts, but we have manuscript copies, translations, and our interpretations. How shall we prove inerrancy? Today, we have interpretations,  church seminars and conventions, and "great men and women" of faith who rise up over many years. Thus, the words per se, do convey meanings and do so across many, many, generations.

Or something to that effect.

 
 
 
CB
5.1.11  CB   replied to  MAGA @5.1.9    2 months ago
Interpretation has to do with our reception and understanding of that which God revealed and recorded.

Moving on, I desire you and yours set me straight about this: Point me to where in revelation, you have been explained that providing 'cover' for lies, delusions, and open deception is a goodly, spiritual, trait for followers of God, Jesus, and Spirit.

 
 
 
MAGA
5.1.12  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @5.1.11    2 months ago

Render unto Caesar that which is his and unto God that which is His.  A vote for anyone for political office is a rendering unto Caesar as we are not electing a national pastor.  God is forgiving thus what Trump did before turning to God and pastors for guidance and support is irrelevant. He was already elected with his past in full public knowledge.  Now we are only voting to re elect him based on what he’s done since being sworn in as President.  There is no moral or supposed Christian mandate that believers must vote in creepy predator Joe as our President.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1.13  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @5.1.12    2 months ago
 God is forgiving thus what Trump did before turning to God and pastors for guidance and support is irrelevant.

And you know this how? Do you presume to know what god thinks?

He was already elected with his past in full public knowledge.

Which says a lot about the dumbing down of America.

Now we are only voting to re elect him based on what he’s done since being sworn in as President.

Which has been very little.

 
 
 
CB
5.1.14  CB   replied to  MAGA @5.1.12    2 months ago

How 'often' are you a Christian in this country you SAY with your lips is a Christian nation, 1776 TA? According to what you have now shared, it is okay to do as one will here "under Caesar" apart from God. And still, you find fault with your fellow citizens. (In what 'universe' are you only a "part-time" Christian - TA?)

Square the daily lies and their covering; square the lack of human compassion; square God the disciplinarian vs God of Love; square the ill-treatment of children at the 'gate' to our country; square the selfish, self-importance, and pride with what you are told about God, Jesus, and Spirit.

You did not address the questions @4.1.5. I have a problem when a Christian ignores direct discussions about matters of faith and God. You are instructed in scripture to "reason together" with me. How is it become too much for you?

 
 
 
MAGA
5.1.15  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @5.1.13    2 months ago

In your opinion.  He’s actually accomplished a lot of positive things in office.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1.16  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @5.1.15    2 months ago

Current events suggest otherwise.

 
 
 
Freewill
5.1.17  Freewill  replied to  MAGA @5.1    2 months ago
The only bigotry that exists here is that of the secularists...

We are all secularists as Americans enjoying the Constitutional provisions of the First Amendment.  The separation of Church and state is comprised of two parts, the "establishment clause" and the "free exercise clause".  I should think that both the religious and the non-religious should be happy that both clauses exist.  Without such secularism perhaps Christianity might be supplanted by lets say radical Islamism.  I suspect that both the religious and non-religious in the US might be unhappy with that outcome.  Rather than using the words "secularist" or "secularism" as terms of derision, perhaps some thought as to what they really mean, especially with respect to our First Amendment, should be considered?

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
5.1.18  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  MAGA @5.1.6    2 months ago

But aren't all humans sinners in the eyes of the Lord?

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
5.1.19  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  MAGA @5.1.9    2 months ago

Leaving things open to interpretation leads to extremism, does it not? I mean, if all of us are sinners in the eyes of the Lord, why would interpretation be a good thing?

 
 
 
Krishna
5.1.20  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @5.1.4    2 months ago
conservative Christians to differentiate their teachings from others who they see as placing non- biblical or extra- biblical tradition as higher or equal in authority to the Bible .

Good for them! jrSmiley_2_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
CB
6  CB     2 months ago
We must put an end to anti-Christian bigotry with a renewed sense of moral responsibility and respect for our faith.

You can start an end to anti-Christianity, by stop mishandling children at the borders of the United States. Not only is God watching (and taking names), the people of the world as they pass by are taking stock for the record. I would tell you to start by getting rid of you know who, but - who know who already.

 
 
 
MAGA
6.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @6    2 months ago

Stop blaming Trump for actions undertaken by your idol and false messiah Obama!  

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.1  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @6.1    2 months ago

CB has made no comments that suggest he views Obama as a messiah.  

 
 
 
CB
6.1.2  CB   replied to  MAGA @6.1    2 months ago

Stop projecting, please. It's not a good look. Obama is not your problem any longer. Your current problem is Trump; he lives an amoral life as president. Christians are not permitted to live without a sense of right and wrong in their daily lives. It is your Christian duty, for which some of you are derelict, to counsel President Donald Trump to stop deliberately lying to the people of this country. Some of his enablers, namely you guys, are openly putting this great faith to shame when you do not demand Trump 'cease and desist' lying. What you do is not in Jesus' name.

 
 
 
CB
6.1.3  CB   replied to  TᵢG @6.1.1    2 months ago

President Obama operated his presidency as a straightforward person, though he faced considerable and oppressive obstructions throughout the eight years. It was a good run for a 'first' of his kind. (Yes, that last is relevant, because he was a trailblazer for minorities in this country.)

Obama is not a Messiah. He is a good and decent man who served as president of our country for eight years.

 
 
 
MAGA
6.1.4  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @6.1.2    2 months ago

Sorry but we will never support Biden any more than we would have supported Obama or Clinton.  Those two and Biden now have no redeeming value and are not worthy of our support or votes.   Trump has said things and acted in enough ways to justify our support for him and his re election.  You progressive Christians don’t get to dictate whom we must vote for in order to be right with God.  Trump has done more to advance individual freedoms and religious liberty than any prior President since Coolidge and Reagan.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.5  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @6.1.4    2 months ago
You progressive Christians don’t get to dictate whom we must vote for in order to be right with God.

Makes sense.

Do you get to dictate who Christians must vote for in order to be right with God?

Also, your argument is actually silly because do you not hold that God chooses the nation's leaders?

So if Trump wins, you will have voted in alignment with God.

But, then, what if Biden wins?    Are you going to seed anti-Biden articles for four years against the leader God has chosen?

 
 
 
CB
6.1.6  CB   replied to  MAGA @6.1.4    2 months ago
Trump has said things and acted in enough ways to justify our support for him and his re election.

So you are okay with Trump being amoral and a non-Christian? But you are against progressive and liberal Christians that will be with you for all eternity in the kingdom of our God? Please clarify your position! Try not to be tedious.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
6.1.7  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  CB @6.1.6    2 months ago

CB, generally I agree with you; however, Biden is simply awful. We're [as Americans] SCREWED for the next 4 years no matter what, but that's just my opinion. And we all know what is said about opinions.

 
 
 
CB
6.1.8  CB   replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @6.1.7    2 months ago

MsAubrey, what is "just awful" about Joe Biden? I need some details to consider. Moreover, do you think we would have fewer versions of truth or "truthiness" to choose from, and fewer "yes men and yes women" in a Biden presidential 'universe'?

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.9  TᵢG  replied to  CB @6.1.8    2 months ago

Joe Biden, circa 2020, is simply an uninspiring, weak candidate.   If it were not for him being the only way to rid the nation of Trump, Biden would have very little appeal.   There are so many better candidates, it is a real shame that our political system effectively picks (often by default) who has a chance of even running in the primary much less getting past the few candidate(s) favored by the party in question (such as Biden, Clinton, McCain, Dole).

And a good part of the problem is an apathetic (and/or lazy) electorate that will often not get behind the better candidates until they have established themselves via polls — a true Catch22.

 
 
 
CB
6.1.10  CB   replied to  TᵢG @6.1.9    2 months ago

Don't take this the wrong way, please. What I am hearing at this point is "sour grapes." I mean no harm, but the political process worked itself out. Biden was selected from what I hear and read, fair and square. In which case he can do no less than run for the officer of president this November. For the record, Biden does not bother me and I am not sure others could take on this 'fierce' liar and deceiver president currently. I could wish for a younger candidate, but note, the younger 'crowd' was heavily following and promoting Bernie Sanders!

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.11  TᵢG  replied to  CB @6.1.10    2 months ago

Sour grapes from me  My comment was a critique of our political process and basically my explanation for how we got down to Biden vs. Trump after dealing with Clinton vs. Trump last time.   Don't interpret it as me complaining that 'my guy' did not win.   That was not the intent nor the point.   My point is that our political process is dysfunctional.

 
 
 
CB
6.1.12  CB   replied to  TᵢG @6.1.11    2 months ago

Yeah, I hear you. I seem to remember a moment in time during the second Obama administration period that I heard from footage of Mitch McConnell stating all they need is someone to sign whatever bill conservatives put in front of (him). Well, even that did not carry over as planned for the republicans got their script-flipped! Trump sold the republicans who were left after the great 'departure' of conservatives in 2016, to get on his leash.

 
 
 
MAGA
6.1.13  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.9    2 months ago

Well we overthrew the McCain Romney, Dole establishmentarian wing of the GOP.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.14  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @6.1.13    2 months ago

'We'?   I thought you did not vote for Trump.  

 
 
 
MAGA
6.1.15  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.14    2 months ago

I didn’t.  I voted for another outsider, Dr. Ben Carson in the primary and then supported Sen. Cruz to the bitter end.  Not voting for Trump in the general election 2016 was the single biggest voting mistake in my life.  Not that it mattered living in California.  Trump has far exceeded my most optimistic hopeful expectations since he upset the witch.   I did vote for him earlier this year and will again in November.  

 
 
 
Krishna
6.1.16  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @6.1.4    2 months ago
Sorry but we will never support Biden any more than we would have supported Obama or Clinton.

But then again-- you supported Ted Cruz! jrSmiley_30_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
7  Sean Treacy    2 months ago

Working class southern whites are targets as well.

 
 
 
MAGA
7.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Sean Treacy @7    2 months ago

Working class believers of all races in every region in America are targets, more so if we are believers too.

 
 
 
Gordy327
7.1.1  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @7.1    2 months ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
CB
7.1.2  CB   replied to  MAGA @7.1    2 months ago

Perhaps if y'all stop in this long-term strategy to target your fellow Americans who are not religious, they will not have to march, protest, and 'strike' at our mutual God and Faith. He or she who would have friends should show himself or herself—friendly in all things. It is not enough to 'paste' a smile on your face, while y'all 'chew' away at the belly of others. They will soon figure out what you all are about and what y'all are really after!

 
 
 
MAGA
7.1.3  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @7.1.1    2 months ago

Says the one who can’t stand it when anyone speaks positive about God and Christianity anywhere he might have to see or hear it...

 
 
 
Gordy327
7.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @7.1.3    2 months ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
MAGA
7.1.5  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @7.1.2    2 months ago

They are the ones targeting and trying to silence and cancel culture/ persecute us.  I didn’t start the targeting 

 
 
 
Gordy327
7.1.6  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @7.1.5    2 months ago
[delete.]
 
 
 
MAGA
7.1.7  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @7.1.4    2 months ago

You think that all who presume to dare to disagree with you or the gods of reason and logic that you promote here do so irrationally.  No one can argue with a pro science virtue signaler and be of sound mind...

 
 
 
MAGA
7.1.8  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @7.1.6    2 months ago

No thanks!

 
 
 
Gordy327
7.1.9  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @7.1.8    2 months ago
No thanks!

I'm not [surprised,DELETED]

 
 
 
CB
7.1.10  CB   replied to  MAGA @7.1.5    2 months ago

How can God be 'cancelled'? We teach God can not fail. Thus, your ideology is one of vanity. You are not to seek vengeance for perceived harms done. Why are you in agreement with those aiding in persecuting and targeting others? Explain yourself!

 
 
 
MAGA
7.1.11  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @7.1.10    2 months ago

After you?!

 
 
 
CB
7.1.12  CB   replied to  MAGA @7.1.11    2 months ago

God can not fail. Consequently, we do not ever set aside the fruits of the Spirit:

  • Love.
  • Joy.
  • Peace.
  • Forbearance.
  • Kindness.
  • Goodness.
  • Faithfulness.
  • Gentleness.
  • Self-Control.

Without first counting the cost of doing so to our faith. God can not lie. It is impossible for Christians to stand up a liar at the right hand of God, Jesus, and Spirit. The picture distorts itself and is both unspeakable and unbearable.

 
 
 
MAGA
 
 
MAGA
7.1.14  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @7.1.10    2 months ago

God can not be canceled.  We human believers can be.  God will cause the very rocks on the ground to call out His message if we are exterminated in an area of the world.  

 
 
 
MAGA
7.1.15  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @7.1.12    2 months ago

That’s why we couldn’t support Hillary and can’t support Biden now! 

 
 
 
TᵢG
7.1.16  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @7.1.15    2 months ago
That’s why we couldn’t support Hillary and can’t support Biden now! 

Interesting.   An opinion question:  if Biden is elected, would that be God's will or would it go against God's will?  

 
 
 
CB
7.1.17  CB   replied to  MAGA @7.1.15    2 months ago

Don't dishonor your faith, with insincerity. You can put forward a great many things, but that Donald Trump is not a practiced liar who daily honors the profession even you won't be so bold as to state it.

 
 
 
MAGA
7.1.18  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.16    2 months ago

If it happens then it is a part of Gods will and his plan to speed up the timing of His 2nd coming.  His win would mean that the angels have begun to end their holding back of the winds of strife and the final countdown is about to commence 

 
 
 
MAGA
7.1.19  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @7.1.17    2 months ago

I’m sorry but no one made you god and gave you the power to dictate whom  genuine Christians must vote for.  That’s above both of our pay grades 

 
 
 
TᵢG
7.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @7.1.18    2 months ago
 His win would mean that the angels have begun to end their holding back of the winds of strife and the final countdown is about to commence 

Are you serious?   Where do you get this stuff?

So if Biden wins, are you going to support God's choice?

 
 
 
CB
7.1.21  CB   replied to  MAGA @7.1.18    2 months ago

You are speaking like a . . . .  You have no right to remark on appointed times which only God knows! A (future) Trump loss is no reason for you to exploit your bible learning or God! Shame.

 
 
 
CB
7.1.22  CB   replied to  MAGA @7.1.19    2 months ago

Stop tap-dancing. Is Donald Trump a practiced liar or not? Answer please. No Christian worth its salt can justify a practiced liar as doing the work of God! That would make God duplicitous. For he told the Jews to not lie; and the Christians to be truthful in all things. Don't be double-minded. God is not in any of the lies Donald Trump has uttered as president. Donald Trump has a father (of lies) and he does the work of the same.

It is not wise for some to deliberately distort the character of God in the minds of others.

 
 
 
Krishna
7.1.23  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @7.1    2 months ago
Working class believers of all races in every region in America are targets

Perhaps its because so many are .... union members...????

 
 
 
MAGA
9  seeder  MAGA    2 months ago

The blatant bigotry against Christians and the attacks against our beliefs and the expression of them is clear and obvious to most and it is manifesting itself across the country from the bi coastal urban elite strongholds as an attack against the Heartland and heart of America.  Christians are the one group it’s now ok to discriminate against.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
9.1  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @9    2 months ago

[DELETED]

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
9.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  MAGA @9    2 months ago
Christians are the one group it’s now ok to discriminate against.  

Please do tell us how you've been discriminated against for being Christian. It seems to me that I hear some Christians claiming continual victimhood but I have yet to see any of them being stopped from voicing their opinions or stopped from worshiping however and whenever they want. There are Churches on virtually every corner in some towns, they have tax free status, they have access to every form of media from radio, internet, TV and print media.

So far the supposed 'discrimination' seems to entail being sued when they operate businesses open to the public then discriminate against lgtbq Americans. So basically they are claiming it's discriminatory against Christians when Christians aren't allowed to discriminate against gays in public businesses. That's it.

I know this is rather basic information, but I'm not sure if you know that it is not discrimination to refute religious beliefs. To point out the flaws in someone else's faith is not discrimination. To expose organized religion for its role in child sex abuse cover ups is not discriminating against religion. To point out the science that undermines long held religious beliefs is not discriminatory.

 
 
 
MAGA
9.2.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @9.2    2 months ago

No 'Outrage' After Catholic Churches Burned, Vandalized This Weekend

GetFile.aspx?guid=f0dd5d56-ec0f-4b74-90a9-54848c561bbc&SiteName=Newsmax&maxsidesize=600

A group of Catholic churches around the country that were vandalized and burned over the weekend might be linked to the same George Floyd-related protests aimed at destroying symbols and statues.

Black Lives Matter leaders have demanded the toppling of statues of former U.S. presidents, abolitionists and Confederate symbols following the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Activist Shaun King went one step further and called for any image depicting a "White European" Jesus to be ripped down because they represent "White supremacy" and "racist propaganda."

Some on social media users have brought attention to the scarcity of coverage surrounding the church burnings 

"Churches are being burned to the ground. What?" right-wing author Mike Cernovich, said in a  video he tweeted . "Why is this not the biggest story of the day."

A Florida man drove his vehicle into the Queen of Peace Catholic Church on Saturday while parishioners were praying inside. He poured gas in the foyer and lit it on fire, setting the building ablaze, according to Marion County Sheriff's Office.

Wondering why the fire had not received more attention, Sean Feucht, a California worship leader and pastor,  tweeted , "Where's the outrage?"

"Why's is the media refusing to acknowledge & condemn the many Catholic Churches vandalized or burned lately? People were worshipping INSIDE THE CHURCH in Florida yesterday when it was lit on fire!" Feucht said.

Steven Anthony Shields, 24, was charged with attempted murder, arson, burglary, and evading arrest in connection to the Florida church burning. According to investigators, he said he did something "awesome" and he was on a "mission" as he confessed to setting the church on fire, an arrest affidavit obtained by the Ocala Star-Banner read .

Another fire broke out across the country in Los Angeles at a 249-year-old San Gabriel Catholic church. 

The church was being renovated at the time for its 250th anniversary when the blaze started at 4 a.m., engulfing its roof and interior.

Capt. Antonio Negrete of the San Gabriel Fire Department told the local Fox 11 news outlet  to investigate whether the church burning is connected to the recent destruction of several Junipero Serra monuments. Serra was the founder of the California mission system.

"This will be another box that they're going to check off," he said, adding, "It's a tragic loss for our city. It's our city identifier."

In New York, a statue of the Virgin Mary at Cathedral Prep School and Seminary in Queens on July 10 had the work "IDOL" spray-painted on it at 3 a.m. ET, according to the Catholic News Agency .

Fr. James Kuroly, rector and president of Cathedral Prep, said the incident was "an act of hatred."

"Obviously, this tragedy saddens us deeply but it also renews our hope and faith in the Lord as he has shown his goodness in the many people who have already reached out to us," Kuroly said. "We are sincerely grateful for the help we have received as well as the prayers. Please continue praying for those who committed this act of vandalism and hatred toward Our Lady and the Church." https://www.newsmax.com/us/catholic-church-arson-burned/2020/07/13/id/976972/

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.2  Tessylo  replied to  MAGA @9.2.1    2 months ago
"A group of Catholic churches around the country that were vandalized and burned over the weekend MIGHT BE LINKED to the same George Floyd-related protests aimed at destroying symbols and statues."

 That's a lot of accusations with no proof.  

How do we know it wasn't white supremacists like the boogaloo boys or the proud boys?

 
 
 
MAGA
9.2.3  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Tessylo @9.2.2    2 months ago

You’ve forgotten already the BLM affiliated person who said that churches and statues of Jesus, Mary, disciples, stained glass, etc needed to be taken down?  Look at all the graffiti on the defaced and arson attacked church President Teump is standing in front of.  

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
9.2.4  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @9.2    2 months ago

Yeah... where I live there's 15 Catholic Churches in 6 square miles.

 
 
 
CB
9.3  CB   replied to  MAGA @9    2 months ago

My goodness, that is a mouthful of low substance there!

 
 
 
MAGA
9.3.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @9.3    2 months ago

It’s called the written truth!

 
 
 
CB
9.3.2  CB   replied to  MAGA @9.3.1    2 months ago
Christians are the one group it’s now ok to discriminate against.  

Christians do not get to cut away at the unalienable rights of other citizens and then decry strong push-back from people pushed up against a political wall!

 
 
 
MAGA
9.3.3  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @9.3.2    2 months ago

Christians do not take away rights of others.  We preserve rights and defend life and traditional values.  No one has a right to coerce anyone to produce expression or objects in violation of their beliefs.  

 
 
 
CB
9.3.4  CB   replied to  MAGA @9.3.3    2 months ago
We preserve rights and defend life and traditional values.

You preserve conservative points of view at the expense of liberals, progressives, secularist, and even other conservatives not supporting your activities. For which somehow you have found it admissible to support and enable a daily liar against the truth! Where you ever got persuaded God loves lies, and daily lies even more, is beyond the pail.

But y'all can just keep looking over God. You are not doing this that you do in Jesus' name.

 
 
 
Krishna
9.3.5  Krishna  replied to  CB @9.3.4    2 months ago
But y'all can just keep looking over God. You are not doing this that you do in Jesus' name.

Well I'm by no means an expert, but it seems to me that what you are describing is taking The Lord's name in vain! (Figuratively speaking of course...but still...)

Perhaps we should also give serious consideration to making The Lord's name in vain a CoC offense? 

And maybe give it bit more juice-- also add "bearing false witness" as well... (that happens all too frequently on certain social media sites (which shall remain nameless).

By doing that perhaps we can "Make NT Great Again"???? 

 
 
 
CB
9.3.6  CB   replied to  Krishna @9.3.5    2 months ago

Hi Krishna! What I am doing is reminding those who enable this president for expediency, fail to count the soul cost to themselves. God, in the Bible, upbraided many individuals who thought arrogantly to do God a 'favor.' God has no need of humanity "doing God any 'solid'." Jesus did too when he spoke of those workers of deceit, who SAY but do not perform accordingly.

 
 
 
Krishna
9.5  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @9    2 months ago
The blatant bigotry against Christians and the attacks against our beliefs and the expression of them is clear and obvious to most and it is manifesting itself across the country from the bi coastal urban elite strongholds as an attack against the Heartland and heart of America

Well, speaking of "The Heartland"... it true much of the media has been saying some pretty negative things about Donald Trump. But what are REAL AMERICANS actually saying? 

Let's take a look:

 
 
 
Krishna
11  Krishna    2 months ago
And you are correct in that the more we are persecuted the faster we will grow.

Well if that's the case....since Christianity's followers in the U.S. are not growing fast but are in fact declining in numbers . . . there can only be one logical conclusion:  Christianity isn't being persecuted!!!

 
 
 
Krishna
11.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @11    2 months ago
he more we are persecuted the faster we will grow.
Well if that's the case (i.e. the more y'all are persecuted the faster ya grow)....since Christianity's followers in the U.S. are not growing fast but are in fact declining in numbers . . . there can only be one logical conclusion:  Christianity isn't being persecuted!!!

That's called logic. 

I wasn't able to do it before, but just recently I learned how to do logic...kudos to people like TiG and Gordy327!

Learn to do logic...and y'all can also learn to Get Smarter Here!

 
 
 
TᵢG
12  TᵢG    2 months ago
It’s ok to attack religiosity and religious people and point out the problems with it, but point out the good it does or the positive effects of being a believer or of the belief itself and censorship or worse is swift and certain.  

In general, people seem to be more interested in bad news than good.   Murder, rape, infidelity, etc. are more commonly reported upon than charitable deeds and other good acts.   This is not limited to Christians.   Life is unfair, people are unfair.

IMO there are plenty of good deeds conducted by religious organizations.  There are positive, therapeutic benefits to the comforting beliefs offered by religions.   To wit, religions are not all bad.   But there exists plenty bad, historically and today, with religions and the general notion of believing as true what an authority merely claims is truth.   You, for example, hold that homosexuality is an abomination according to God.   Does that fall in the good category?     You hold that evolution is pseudoscience.   Is it good, as you see things, to teach that utter nonsense to the next generation?

Yes there is good, but that does not mean that it is not fair game to expose the bad.

 
 
 
Krishna
12.1  Krishna  replied to  TᵢG @12    2 months ago
In general, people seem to be more interested in bad news than good.   Murder, rape, infidelity, etc. are more commonly reported upon than charitable deeds and other good acts.

Actually there's been a saying in the news business:

If it bleeds, it leads.

Those shocking horrible events sell papers!

(It reminds me of the phenomena on roadways when there's an accident. As they pass, cars slow down in an attempt to view the (hopefully!) gory details. And on major highways all those people slowing down sometimes slows down traffic considerably for quite a distance)

 
 
 
Krishna
12.2  Krishna  replied to  TᵢG @12    2 months ago
This is not limited to Christians.   Life is unfair, people are unfair.

Whoa, wait a second!

Are you saying that Christians aren't subject to more persecution than other Americans? Hard to believe when we've all seen how uniquely horrible life is for Christians here in the U.S.--- due to all the institutionalized persecution they face every minute-- of every day!

Its so uniquely bad for Christians that sometimes I wonder if Jesus may not be a true God after all-- because if he were he would prevent Christians from facing all the horror of the lives they have to live because of all the persecution they face! If he were actually a real god he would stop it ASAP!

(But what do I know..?)

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13  Jeremy Retired in NC    2 months ago
But they still sell products that are deeply offensive to Christians, like: 
  • Merchandise from the anti-Christian band    Marduk   , which includes images of a woman using a cross as a sex toy and a demon performing a sex act on the crucified Christ.
  • Toilet covers and bathmats with the face of Jesus on them.
  • A throw pillow that simply declares, “I hate Jesus.”

While christians are all in an uproar about their perceived persecution, they fail to realize that, to many, what is put forth by their church can be seen as offensive as well.  Who, honestly wants so see a corpse nailed to a torture device?  I sure as hell don't.  

The whole "christian's being persecuted" is BS.  ~60% of the US call themselves christian and scream down anybody who offers a differing belief.  But I'm supposed to believe that it's the christians that are persecuted.

 
 
 
Gordy327
13.1  Gordy327  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13    2 months ago
Who, honestly wants so see a corpse nailed to a torture device?  I sure as hell don't.  

I'm reminded of something George Carlin once said: "I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood.

The whole "christian's being persecuted" is BS. 

Thank you. I've been saying that for quite some time.

But I'm supposed to believe that it's the christians that are persecuted.

Funny how they cannot seem to offer any examples of actual persecution.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.1.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Gordy327 @13.1    2 months ago
I'm reminded of something George Carlin once said: "I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood.

I like his statement "I was catholic until I reached the age of reason."  

Funny how they cannot seem to offer any examples of actual persecution.

But history is full of christians persecuting others.

 
 
 
Gordy327
13.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13.1.1    2 months ago
I like his statement "I was catholic until I reached the age of reason."  

I like that one too. 

But history is full of christians persecuting others.

Oh, but they weren't "true" christians. After all, they probably didn't believe the exact same thing, down to the letter, as other "true" christians do.

 
 
 
MAGA
13.1.3  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13.1.1    2 months ago

I’m not going to defend the excesses of the church that persecuted those who questioned its actions roughly from the fall of the Roman Empire to the approximate time of the founding of America.  

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.1.4  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Gordy327 @13.1.2    2 months ago
Oh, but they weren't "true" christians.

I love it when that's said.  I usually ask on what authority they have to declare another believer not at "true" believer.  The answer is normally just blathering on about how somebody doesn't believe "as they should".  

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.1.5  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  MAGA @13.1.3    2 months ago

The excess of the church is yet just another thing I find offensive and abhorrent with that "religion of peace".

 
 
 
Ender
13.1.6  Ender  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13.1.5    2 months ago

I never understood the holy trinity.

I get the father and son, God and Jesus, yet what in the world is the holy ghost...

 
 
 
charger 383
13.1.7  charger 383  replied to  Ender @13.1.6    2 months ago

when I was little that Holy Ghost was a scary thing

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.1.8  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  charger 383 @13.1.7    2 months ago

That was the intent.  Control through fear.  Sounds ISIS and Taliban like doesn't it?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.1.9  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Ender @13.1.6    2 months ago

Depending on who you talk to, god and Jesus are the same.  I guess it's their way of avoiding the commision of one of the 10 commandments.  Something about idols or false gods.

I think the "holy ghost" aspect was thrown in as a fear tactic to keep people in line.  

 
 
 
CB
13.1.10  CB   replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13.1.9    2 months ago

Jeremy and All, the "Holy Ghost" is King James Version (KJV) english. That is another world for "spirit." As you might can imagine for children such as us (me included) growing up on Hollywood monster and ghost films (Outer Limits, Twilight Zone, Great Ghost Tales, 'things that go bump in the night,') trying to visualize and 'internalize' God as a ghost was well, spooky!

Actually, when Jesus and the Writer introduced the Holy Ghost or AKA the Holy Spirit in scripture, this "ghost" was to be considered a friend, Comforter, and Guide to higher spiritual understanding and values.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.1.11  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  CB @13.1.10    2 months ago
King James Version

That is another problem.  There are so many different version of the bible, for all you know, the original is a Jewish recipes for brisket.

 
 
 
CB
13.1.12  CB   replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13.1.11    2 months ago

So did you get the gist of my sharing? Or, should I try a new approach?

 
 
 
MAGA
13.1.13  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Ender @13.1.6    2 months ago

The great comforter.  The One who prompts us to make the right choice when the evil one tempts otherwise.  What’s to fear?  

 
 
 
Krishna
13.1.14  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @13.1.3    2 months ago
I’m not going to defend the excesses of the church

Obviously.

 
 
 
Krishna
13.1.15  Krishna  replied to  charger 383 @13.1.7    2 months ago
when I was little that Holy Ghost was a scary thing

And for good reason-- after all, if you piss off The Holy Ghost-- you're going to burn in Hell (AKA "Eternal Hellfire").

No wonder Christians are so widely persecuted-- scaring the shit out of innocent children with scary stories like that! jrSmiley_5_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Gordy327
13.1.16  Gordy327  replied to  Krishna @13.1.15    2 months ago

Well, they think they're persecuted. But that just shows they don't know what persecution is.

 
 
 
MAGA
13.1.17  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @13.1.16    2 months ago

We well know what persecution is as we are the most persecuted religion on earth by far and we had our beginning in the face of persecution 

 
 
 
Gordy327
13.1.18  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @13.1.17    2 months ago

That statement only proves you don't understand what persecution really is and are just playing the victim. Why don't you ask the Jewish people what they think about that!

 
 
 
MAGA
13.2  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13    2 months ago

That one time corpse once nailed to that torture device is now risen and the source of our salvation.  He took that upon Himself so that we wouldn’t have to bear the permanent consequences of all our mistakes.  

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.2.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  MAGA @13.2    2 months ago
That one time corpse once nailed to that torture device is now risen and the source of our salvation.

If that's your belief good for you.  To me, it's a corpse on a torture device and nothing more.  There is no undeniable proof of that person's existence and as far as any of us know he is a 2000 year old figment of somebody's embellished oral story.

He took that upon Himself so that we wouldn’t have to bear the permanent consequences of all our mistakes.  

Not bearing the consequences of mistakes is what made society at large a shit hole.

 
 
 
Krishna
13.2.2  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @13.2    2 months ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
MAGA
13.3  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13    2 months ago

 
 
 
pat wilson
13.3.1  pat wilson  replied to  MAGA @13.3    2 months ago
sec·u·lar·ism
/ˈsekyələˌrizəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
  1. the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.
    "he believes that secularism means no discrimination against anybody in the name of religion"
    Secularism is not a philosophy at all
 
 
 
MAGA
13.3.2  seeder  MAGA  replied to  pat wilson @13.3.1    2 months ago

It’s a big nothing at all...

 
 
 
Veronica
13.4  Veronica  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13    2 months ago
wants so see a corpse nailed to a torture device?

Which is perfectly acceptable to wear to work around your neck as a religious item, but I was told by my supervisor that I couldn't wear my pentagram necklace because it made others uncomfortable.  I stated so did their corpse on a torture device.  I decided to not cause waves and am now wearing necklaces that reflect my spirit animal.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
13.4.1  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Veronica @13.4    2 months ago

People don't realize what the pentagram actually represents. They only know of the falsehoods pushed by movies.

 
 
 
Veronica
13.4.2  Veronica  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @13.4.1    2 months ago
People don't realize what the pentagram actually represents. They only know of the falsehoods pushed by movies

I know and it drives me bonkers.  Drives me crazy when movies depict witches as worshipers of Satan.

 
 
 
evilgenius
13.4.3  evilgenius  replied to  Veronica @13.4    2 months ago

I wore a pentagram in uniform in the army in the late 80's and it drove my Sargent nuts. There wasn't a thing he could do about it. 

 
 
 
Veronica
13.4.4  Veronica  replied to  evilgenius @13.4.3    2 months ago
There wasn't a thing he could do about it. 

My hubby told me they couldn't fire me for it, but in today's pro employer environment I decided not to chance it & show my faith in other ways. I like my job & I like my health benefits, so I buckled.  I am so ashamed....jrSmiley_89_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
13.4.5  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Veronica @13.4.2    2 months ago

You mean "The Craft" wasn't a documentary? jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif /s

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
13.4.6  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Veronica @13.4.4    2 months ago

Depends on if they're an "at will" employer. If it's an "at will" employer, they can fire you for wearing the color purple if they choose.

 
 
 
Gordy327
13.4.7  Gordy327  replied to  Veronica @13.4    2 months ago

I've heard similar stories. I remember someone from NV who said he was denied a job because the prospective employer was christian and didn't feel comfortable with pagan worshippers

 
 
 
Veronica
13.4.8  Veronica  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @13.4.5    2 months ago

Most certainly it was.  It is how I learned witchcraft.  That and Samantha.

 
 
 
Veronica
13.4.9  Veronica  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @13.4.6    2 months ago

I have learned that most employers can find any reason to let some one go.  Any infraction that is usually overlooked can be used.  I have seen it where I work.  

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
13.4.10  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Veronica @13.4.8    2 months ago

jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Veronica
13.4.11  Veronica  replied to  Gordy327 @13.4.7    2 months ago

I am very lucky my supervisor is very open minded.  She allows me to take my Sabbats off when they fall during the week.  The necklace issue came from over her head.  She does allow me to hang things in my area reflecting my devotion.

 
 
 
Gordy327
13.4.12  Gordy327  replied to  Veronica @13.4.11    2 months ago

That's good.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.4.13  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Veronica @13.4    2 months ago

Wear the cross.  Just invert it.  Really drive those "tolerant, loving christians" batshit crazy.  If they don't like it then it's something that should be addressed with HR.  Possibly a report filed with the EEO Representative.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
13.4.14  Gordy327  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13.4.13    2 months ago

Perhaps go 1 step further than inverting and wear a Baphomet necklace. Watch heads explode then, lol

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.4.15  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Gordy327 @13.4.14    2 months ago

I'd stick with the inverted cross.  Their own ignorance will come out because they don't know it is a part of their own religion called the St. Peter's Cross.

Have fun with them.

 
 
 
MAGA
13.4.16  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Veronica @13.4.2    2 months ago

The ultimate truth too hard to accept?  

 
 
 
MAGA
13.4.17  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @13.4.14    2 months ago

Is that the pro science position backed by logic or an emotional reaction?  

 
 
 
MAGA
13.4.18  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13.4.15    2 months ago

Actually we do know that....

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
13.4.19  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  MAGA @13.4.18    2 months ago

Yeah, no.  I'll put money down that you googled it after seeing my statement.

 
 
 
Gordy327
13.4.20  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @13.4.17    2 months ago

Neither. It's a predicted observation. 

 
 
 
Veronica
13.4.21  Veronica  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @13.4.13    2 months ago
Just invert it.

Now that is something I never thought of.  Thanks.

 
 
 
Veronica
13.4.22  Veronica  replied to  MAGA @13.4.16    2 months ago

You do not know the truth behind my spiritual beliefs.  If you did you would not have made such an asinine statement.  Your comment should be removed for .being a personal insult to my faith.  Also Satan is your faith's creation not mine - so you worship him  - I do not.

 
 
 
Krishna
13.4.23  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @13.4.16    2 months ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
MAGA
14  seeder  MAGA    2 months ago

WAS THE PROPHET JONAH REALLY SWALLOWED BY A WHALE?

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Many Christians are inclined to interpret the story of Jonah in the Old Testament as an allegory that was never meant to be understood as actual history. However, allegories or parables in the Bible are always either said to be so, or made evident in the context. The Book of Jonah, however, is written as a historical tale with a historical prophet mentioned in II Kings 14:25 and confirmed to have existed by Jesus Christ in Matthew 12:40-41. Christ here compares the experience of Jonah to His own approaching death and resurrection.

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Do You Believe in Miracles?

If you believe in miracles, such as the universe coming into existence by God and Jesus Christ rising from the dead, then this leaves little room for doubt that God can have a whale swallow a man and have the man emerge from the belly of the whale three days later, even if this cannot happen in a natural way. This was done for a specific purpose in a specific time that had significance for a certain people, and when properly read in its context it can be understood why such a miracle would prove a certain point to these people. We will explain this further below.

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What About the "Whale"?

Both the Hebrew and the Greek versions of the Book of Jonah do not specifically say Jonah was swallowed by a whale, but that he was swallowed by a ketos , which in Greek means "great or large aquatic animal." This could mean either a whale, a shark, a sea monster, or even some sea creature specifically created by God to serve His purpose. Whole animals as large or larger than a man have been found in the stomachs of the sperm whale, the whale shark and the white shark. St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite explains in his Synaxaristes the possibilities of what the ketos described in the Book of Jonah could be:

For the sake of those who love learning and are curious, we present here some things on the ketos. The ketos was bigger than a prison ship, according to Theocles. It was five times bigger than an elephant, according to Aelianus. It was fifty cubits in length, according to Eratosthenes. It was twenty-five fathoms, or a hundred cubits, according to Nearchus. And according to Onesikratos, it was six hundred feet. Orthagoras says it was four plethrons, or a thousand feet in length and fifty in width.

Accordingly the divine Fathers who followed these men of old, gave extreme stature to the ketos. Basil the Great said that the ketos was like a large mountain in the magnitude of its body, and they look like islands (Hexaemeron, Hom. 7). When Ambrose says that the ketos swims on the waves, he thinks of it as an island and high mountain that reaches to the sky with the edge of its navel. Eustathios of Antioch, in his Hexaemeron, says that one ketos, called a aspidochelone, is so big that it appears to seamen as if it is an island.

Even the moderns say that in Santonia, a city in France found in the British Ocean, a ketos was caught with one hundred and twenty legs, according to Scaliger. And in the Baltic Sea there was another caught, being a hundred cubits in length, according to Ziegler. These are among the many ketoses that we are told have been caught, which are otherwise called whales.

We see therefore that ancient and modern writers with scientific minds, some who had much experience at sea, described the ketos as something much larger than a contemporary sea creature or whale. This leaves the possibility that an aquatic creature may have existed that was much larger in the past few thousand and even few hundred years that is greater in size than something like a whale shark today, which can reach up to fifty feet or fifteen meters (see photo below).

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How Did Jonah Survive?

There are three possible answers to the question of how Jonah could have survived three days in the belly of the large fish.

1. Natural—It has been well established that the ancient Hebrew usage of "three days and three nights" was an idiomatic expression that meant simply "three days", allowing the first and last day to be partial days, thus forming a period of time as little as 38 hours (as in the case of the Resurrection of Christ). If something alive is swallowed by a whale, there is always some air for survival, and digestive activity will not begin as long as it is alive. Thus, Jonah's experience could possibly have taken place within the framework of natural law.

2. Miracle—Though this could have taken place naturally, it is more likely that it was a miracle, as Scripture strongly implies. The Book of Jonah says the "large fish" was prepared and sent by God, along with the intense storm that threatened the ship on which Jonah was traveling. God's intention in all this was to have Jonah go to Nineveh and preach to the inhabitants there the message of repentance. Therefore, no doubt God would have preserved Jonah in the belly of the large fish, and did so purposefully for three days as a type of the future resurrection of Christ.

3. Resurrection—A third possibility is that Jonah actually suffocated and died in the large fish, and after three days in Hades or Sheol (the place of departed spirits) God brought him back from the dead, similar to the other eight resurrections that are recorded in Scripture, and in this way Jonah's experience was the prophetic sign mentioned by Jesus. It is also implied in the prayer of Jonah: Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and You heard my voice (Jonah 2:2). That Jonah actually resurrected from the dead may have had a significant impact on the inhabitants of Nineveh repenting with such enthusiasm. Some scholars have speculated that Jonah’s appearance, no doubt bleached white from the action of the fish’s digestive acids, would have been of great help to his cause. If such were the case, the Ninevites would have been greeted by a man whose skin, hair and clothes were bleached ghostly white—a man accompanied by a crowd of frenetic followers, many of whom claimed to have witnessed him having been vomited upon the shore by a great fish (plus any colorful exaggerations they might have added).

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Did the Ninevites Really Repent?

Critics also find Nineveh’s repentance (Jonah 3:4-9) hard to believe, though it isn’t technically a miracle. In actual fact, Nineveh’s repentance makes perfect sense given Jonah’s extraordinary arrival upon the shores of the Mediterranean and the prominence of Dagon worship in that particular area of the ancient world. Dagon was a fish-god who enjoyed popularity among the pantheons of Mesopotamia and the eastern Mediterranean coast. He is mentioned several times in the Bible in relation to the Philistines (Judges 16:23-24; 1 Samuel 5:1-7; 1 Chronicles 10:8-12). Images of Dagon have been found in palaces and temples in Nineveh and throughout the region. In some cases he was represented as a man wearing a fish. In others he was part man, part fish—a merman, of sorts.

As for Jonah’s success in Nineveh, Orientalist Henry Clay Trumbull made a valid point when he wrote, “What better heralding, as a divinely sent messenger to Nineveh, could Jonah have had, than to be thrown up out of the mouth of a great fish, in the presence of witnesses, say on the coast of Phoenicia, where the fish-god was a favorite object of worship? Such an incident would have inevitably aroused the mercurial nature of Oriental observers, so that a multitude would be ready to follow the seemingly new avatar of the fish-god, proclaiming the story of his uprising from the sea, as he went on his mission to the city where the fish-god had its very centre of worship” (H. Clay Trumbull, “Jonah in Nineveh.” Journal of Biblical Literature , Vol. 2, No.1, 1892, p. 56).

216375.p.jpg?mtime=1444037721
    

Is There Any Historical Corroboration for the Tale of Jonah?

While there is no conclusive historical proof that Jonah was ever swallowed by a fish and lived to tell about it, there is some provocative corroboratory evidence. In the 3rd century B.C., a Babylonian priest/historian named Berosus wrote of a mythical creature named Oannes who, according to Berosus, emerged from the sea to give divine wisdom to men. Scholars generally identify this mysterious fish-man as an avatar of the Babylonian water-god Ea (also known as Enki). The curious thing about Berosus’ account is the name that he used: Oannes (Ωάννη or Οάννες).

Berosus wrote in Greek during the Hellenistic Period. Oannes is just a single letter removed from the Greek name Ioannes. Ioannes happens to be one of the two Greek names used interchangeably throughout the Greek New Testament to represent the Hebrew name Yonah (Jonah), which in turn appears to be a moniker for Yohanan (from which we get the English name John). (See John 1:42; 21:15; and Matthew 16:17.) Conversely, both Ioannes and Ionas (the other Greek word for Jonah used in the New Testament) are used interchangeably to represent the Hebrew name Yohanan in the Greek Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Compare 2 Kings 25:23 and 1 Chronicles 3:24 in the Septuagint with the same passages from the Hebrew Old Testament.

As for the missing “I” in Ioannes, according to Professor Trumbull who claims to have confirmed his information with renowned Assyriologist Dr. Herman V. Hilprecht before writing his own article on the subject, “In the Assyrian inscriptions the J of foreign words becomes I, or disappears altogether; hence Joannes, as the Greek representative of Jona, would appear in Assyrian either as Ioannes or as Oannes” (Trumbull, ibid., p. 58).

Nineveh was Assyrian. What this essentially means is that Berosus wrote of a fish-man named Jonah who emerged from the sea to give divine wisdom to man – a remarkable corroboration of the Hebrew account.

Berosus claimed to have relied upon official Babylonian sources for his information. Nineveh was conquered by the Babylonians under King Nabopolassar in 612 B.C., more than 300 years before Berosus. It is quite conceivable, though speculative, that record of Jonah’s success in Nineveh was preserved in the writings available to Berosus. If so, it appears that Jonah was deified and mythologized over a period of three centuries, first by the Assyrians, who no doubt associated him with their fish-god Dagon, and then by the Babylonians, who appear to have hybridized him with their own water-god, Ea.

As for the city of Nineveh, from the word "Nineweh" which means "place of the fish", it was rediscovered in the 19th century after more than 2,500 years of obscurity. It is now believed to have been the largest city in the world at the time of its demise (see Tertius Chandler's Four Thousand Years of Urban Growth: An Historical Census ). According to Sir Austen Henry Layard, who chronicled the rediscovery of Nineveh in his classic Discoveries at Nineveh , the circumference of Greater Nineveh was “exactly three days' journey,” as recorded in Jonah 3:3 (Austen Henry Layard, A Popular Account of Discoveries at Nineveh , J. C. Derby: New York, 1854, p. 314). Prior to its rediscovery, skeptics scoffed at the possibility that so large a city could have existed in the ancient world. In fact, skeptics denied the existence of Nineveh altogether. Its rediscovery in the mid-1800s proved to be a remarkable vindication for the Bible, which mentions Nineveh by name 18 times and dedicates two entire books (Jonah and Nahum) to its fate.

It is interesting to note where the lost city of Nineveh was rediscovered. It was found buried beneath a pair of tells in the vicinity of Mosul in modern-day Iraq. These mounds are known by their local names, Kuyunjik and Nabi Yunus. Nabi Yunus happens to be Arabic for “the Prophet Jonah.” The lost city of Nineveh was found buried beneath an ancient tell named after the Prophet Jonah.

 
 
 
MAGA
14.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  MAGA @14    2 months ago

Was Jonah Swallowed by a Whale?

stewart_don.jpg
There have been a number of accounts in Scripture that have caused problems for scientists and non-scientists alike. One of the more prominent accounts is the story of Jonah and the whale:

Now the Lord prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights ( Jonah 1:17 ).

Are we to understand this literally? Was Jonah actually swallowed by a large fish?

Not Necessarily A Whale

To begin with we must note that the Hebrew word does not necessarily correspond to our modern designation whale. It simply means a large sea creature and could refer to anything found in the sea. Old Testament authority Gleason Archer writes:

Incidentally, it should be observed that the Hebrew text of Jonah 2:1 actually reads dag gadol , or "great fish" rather than a technical term for "whale." But since Hebrew possessed no special word for "whale," and since no true fish - as opposed to a marine mammal - ague to be serviceable here, since it could also mean shark, sea serpent, or even dragon (Gleason Archer, Jr., A Survey of Old Testament Introduction , Revised edition, Chicago: Moody Press, 1974, p. 314).

Did then a large sea creature literally swallow Jonah?

History Or Fiction?

Many people view the Book of Jonah as unhistorical and unscientific:

Many Jews and Christians, in spite of the difficulties, have accepted the story as history. In the pre-scientific era this literal interpretation was acceptable (Madeleine S. Miller and J. Lane Miller, Jonah, Harpers Bible Dictionary , New York: Harper and Row, 1952, p. 345).

The Book of Jonah treats the account as history, not allegory. Furthermore, there is every good reason to accept this as a historical record. This can be seen by observing the following:

1. Jonah was a historical character.

2. The book was written as historical narrative.

3. The traditional view of Jews and Christians is that the book is historical.

4. Jesus testified to the books historicity.

Jonah Existed

We know from another biblical reference that there was a prophet to Israel named Jonah:

He restored the territory of Israel from the entrance of Hamath to the Sea of the Arabah, according to the word of the Lord God of Israel, which He had spoken through his servant Jonah the son of Amittai, the prophet who was from Gath Hepher ( 2 Kings 14:25 ).

Historical Narrative

The Book of Jonah is written as a historical narrative. There is no indication within the account that it is to be treated otherwise. Until recently, neither Christians or Jews questioned the historicity of the Book of Jonah. It has been accepted as an account of what actually occurred during the life of the prophet Jonah.

Jesus and Jonah

The historicity of the account of Jonah is confirmed by Jesus Christ. Jesus told the religious leaders of His day that the sign of Jonah was going to be the sign of his resurrection:
An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth ( Matthew 12:39 , 40 ).

Jesus accepted, at face value, the account of Jonah surviving after being swallowed by the sea creature. In His mind the event did literally occur. He also believed the repentance of the people of Nineveh as something that occurred. If Jesus is the One whom He claimed to be, God in human flesh, then His Word settles the matter.


In addition, Jesus puts the historicity of the account of Jonah and the fish on the same level as His resurrection. The analogy is clear. As Jonah was so Jesus will be. The Bible teaches that Jesus was literally dead and then resurrected from the dead. The resurrection of Christ is treated as a historical fact as is the account of Jonah.
All things point to the event as having literally occurred.

Not Impossible

The next point that needs to be made is that there are creatures living in the sea which are capable of swallowing a human being whole. Sperm whales have been known to swallow unusually large objects, including a fifteen-foot long shark! (for documentation see Frank T. Bullen, Cruise of the Cachalot Round the World After Sperm Whales, London: Smith, 1898).

The whale shark, as well as the blue whale, also has the capacity of swallowing a man whole. Sperm whales and whale sharks are not unknown in that part of the world.

Furthermore, Jonah-like incidents have been known to occur. There have been at least two documented reports where men have been swallowed by large sea creatures and have lived through the experience.

One man, Marshall Jenkins, was swallowed alive by a sperm whale in 1771 and survived. Another incident concerns James Bartley. In 1891, Bartley was swallowed by a sperm whale that his whaling crew had harpooned. The whale slipped away, was found and killed a day or so later. Bartley was found alive, but unconscious, in the stomach of the whale. He was revived and in a few weeks regained his health (for documentation see Ambrose James Wilson, Princeton Theological Revue, October, 1928).

Thus, the account of Jonah cannot be rejected on the basis that:

(1) No such sea creature exists that could swallow a man whole.
(2) The incident is outside the realm of human experience.

However, beyond the fact that a natural explanation could explain the episode is that the Bible says God prepared a fish to swallow Jonah. This could mean a special fish made for this very occasion or it could mean that God directed one of the large sea creatures to swallow the wayward prophet. Whatever the case, the supernatural hand of God was involved.

Conclusion

There is every good reason to accept the account of Jonah in a literal manner. The fish involved could have been specially prepared by God or it could have been one of the sea creatures known to be able to swallow a human. Whatever the explanation, the account given in Scripture is miraculous.   https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_629.cfm
 
 
 
MAGA
14.1.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  MAGA @14.1    2 months ago

Clearly the Biblical account was an accurate representation of what actually happened beyond any real doubt. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
14.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @14.1.1    2 months ago

Wow, both erroneous and off topic in your own seed.

 
 
 
MAGA
14.1.3  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @14.1.2    2 months ago

Not really as calling what we believe fallacies and mocking defense of said belief as irrational is in fact the very definition of the headline of the seeded article. Besides believers can post their opinions of all four of your articles here and any you do later without fear of being censored by me or the groups moderators here.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
14.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @14.1.3    2 months ago
Not really as calling what we believe fallacies and mocking defense of said belief as irrational is in fact the very definition of the headline of the seeded article.

Challenging religious stories and claims is not mocking. And as for the headline, it refers to the divine fallacy, which is often used to support such stories, especially when there is no empirical evidence for support. It's been said many times, debate the content. Provide evidence and reasoning to support or refute them. It's that simple.

Besides believers can post their opinions of all four of your articles here and any you do later without fear of being censored by me or the groups moderators here.  

Then it's still off topic and meta.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
14.1.5  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  MAGA @14.1.1    2 months ago

That is strictly a Christian view of the Jonah story, and since it is not the original source, it is not reliable. The Jonah story is considered to be a parable in Judaism, where the story comes from, just as the story of Eden. In fact, many of the stories are. They are meant to be interpreted and are discussed in the Talmud. No Rabbi would ever teach that story as an actual historical event. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
14.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @14.1.5    2 months ago
No Rabbi would ever teach that story as an actual historical event. 

Understandably so.   It is 2020, what must happen in a mind to actually believe this to be a true story?   Seems to me, perpetuating wild stories as truth when the stories fly in the face of reason (and facts) brings the credibility of the source into great question.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
14.1.7  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @14.1.5    2 months ago

I jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg you, Perrie.

 
 
 
CB
14.1.8  CB   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @14.1.5    2 months ago

Perrie, I think it is of high importance that somebody informed speaks up for Judaism's worldview in these discussions. It can feed and inform the room ("the masses").

Pastors and teachers in the Christian faith do not explain these stories as parables or allegories - even when doing bible exegeses or sermons on the parabolic and allegorical text of these texts as foreshadowing the coming Messiah (Jesus Christ).

So yes, a majority of Christian laypeople have no other alternative supplied them other than to take the words on the pages as: literal flood, literal Jonah, and literal Eden. Or at the least, as understandably questionable and untestable articles of faith.

Therefore, my first question to you would be this: Can you present a readable (digestable) link to a Rabbi explaining Noah, et al, were not literal persons and their 'accounts' are to be accepted for their meaning instead and only? (Because it strikes me that the words on the 'page' do not drive this most important of points home!)

To be clear, I am informed (have read) that Rabbis' interpret their scriptures for spiritual content to Jewish people. Christian do likewise, but there is this foundational question that is not being answered or hotly debated at all (to my knowledge). That is, did (any of) these early bible characters physically or not?

One should not have to become a student of Judaism in order to get the 'basics' on these people or, characters.

Do you understand what I mean? If not, let me know.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
14.1.9  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  CB @14.1.8    2 months ago

Hi CB,

I wish that Christians kept in mind, that Jesus was considered to be a rabbi (which means teacher). He would have taught this as parable also. 

There is a joke among Jews that goes " Two Jews, Three opinions", which means that being Jewish one needs to be able to debate and keep an open mind. Every Rabbi might have a different view of these stories and really none would be wrong, but the Talmud is the usual go-to on these topics. 

That is, did (any of) these early bible characters physically or not?

If you are asking me, if these people existed, I can say that most Jews will say that Moses did and anyone going forward did, since he was the lawgiver. There are many other characters going forward that are not part of the Christian faith, like Esther, which is odd, since Jesus would have known about her and it is documented in Pursain history as a real person.

 
 
 
CB
14.1.10  CB   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @14.1.9    2 months ago
I wish that Christians kept in mind, that Jesus was considered to be a rabbi (which means teacher). He would have taught this as parable also. 

That's interesting. I say this, because as the writers of the books on Jesus' mention characters like Noah , Adam and Eve , Jonah (who was a prophet), they also put "meat on bones" about these individuals and groupings. Additionally, in Luke it is written:

Jesus says. . . . "    44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalm s must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptur es, "

Thus, Christian writers and teachers going way back , have used Jesus's statements (or the writers of the books in this case) to validate the lives of Noah, Adam, Eve, and Jonah! This is done after this manner, because there are no definitive statements in any of the books which make these individuals less than authentically real. This last I write as an observation only not to dispute anything you shared here. (I simply do not know about those people, such figures, so far back in time.)

Esther is an Old Testament book (the story of Esther) well-known, often taught in Sunday Schools curriculum, and many sermons issued forth! Christians have the ability to know Esther well!

 
 
 
MAGA
14.1.11  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @14.1.9    2 months ago

And Abraham, Isaac, Jacob(Israel), Judah, Benjamin, Joseph?  

 
 
 
MAGA
14.1.12  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @14.1.10    2 months ago

One of my favorite Movies is “A night with the King” the story of Esther. 

 
 
 
Krishna
14.1.13  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @14.1    2 months ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
Krishna
14.1.14  Krishna  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @14.1.5    2 months ago
The Jonah story is considered to be a parable in Judaism,

"Many people are saying" that there are some Christians who believe that Jesus taught in parables, and that most (if not all) of His teachings were not to be taken literally.

(If anyone wishes to attack me for saying that, so be it. However I have no opinion on the subject..its way above my pay grade jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif )

 
 
 
Krishna
14.1.15  Krishna  replied to  Gordy327 @14.1.2    2 months ago
Wow, both erroneous and off topic in your own seed.

I think that's why many people are saying that some of the more extreme nutcases should be mocked whenever they do that (because rational dialogues doesn't get through to the crazier ones, mockery is the only way to have an impact).

 
 
 
Gordy327
14.1.16  Gordy327  replied to  Krishna @14.1.15    2 months ago

They seem to view rational dialogue or facts as mocking. Whenever you logically challenge then, they take it as mocking.

 
 
 
CB
14.1.17  CB   replied to  Krishna @14.1.14    2 months ago

Jesus utilized both literal and parable styles of addressing his audience. (Smile.)

 
 
 
MAGA
15  seeder  MAGA    2 months ago

The Science Of The 10 Plagues | Live Science

First Published

By Live Science Staff

The Plagues

(Image credit: Shutterstock)

Every spring, Jewish people the world over celebrate Passover, a holiday that recounts the Exodus, when, according to the Torah (the Old Testament of the Bible), the Jews left Egypt for Israel.

However, before Moses could lead the 40-year journey through the desert, he needed the Pharaoh's permission to free the Jews, who were slaves in the land of Egypt, according to the Torah. But the Pharaoh had a hard heart, prompting the Lord to send down 10 plagues until the Pharaoh changed his mind, the Torah reports.

Could any of these plagues have occurred through natural phenomena? Live Science looks at possible scientific explanations behind each of the 10 plagues.

Blood

(Image credit: Credit: ESA/Getty)

To unleash the first plague upon the Egyptians, Moses struck the river Nile with his staff, turning its waters to blood. At the same time, his brother Aaron performed an identical transformation in the canals, tributaries, ponds and pools throughout Egypt.

After the water turned to blood, "thefish in the Nile died, and the Nile stank, so that the Egyptians could not drink water," according to the Bible, Exodus chapter 7, verse 21, English Standard version .

The sudden appearance of red-hued waters in the Nile could have been caused by a red algae bloom, which appears when certain conditions enable a type of microscopic algae to reproduce in such great numbers that the waters they live in appear to be stained a bloody red.

This phenomenon is known as " red tide " when it happens in oceans, but red algae are also well-represented in freshwater ecosystems. And these algae blooms can certainly be harmful to wildlife, as the algae contain a toxin that can accumulate in shellfish and poison the animals that feed on them. Fumes from densely-concentrated algae blooms can also disperse toxins in the air, causing breathing problems in people that live nearby.

Frogs

(Image credit: Hulton Archive/Getty)

What do you do next, after turning a nation's water supply into blood? If you're following Moses' playbook, you inundate them with frogs.

For the second plague, Moses allegedly conjured vast quantities of frogs that swarmed into people's homes — even finding their way into the Egyptians' beds, ovens and cookware.

As it happens, the phenomenon of " raining frogs " has been reported multiple times throughout history and in a range of locations around the world. A report published July 12, 1873 in Scientific American described "a shower of frogs which darkened the air and covered the ground for a long distance," following a recent rainstorm. The account was one of dozens of similar anecdotes collected in "The Book of the Damned" (1919), though its somewhat skeptical author suggested that the frogs may have simply dropped from trees.

And in May 2010 in Greece, thousands of frogs emerged from a lake in the northern part of the country, likely in search of food, and disrupted traffic for days, CBS News reported .

Lice

(Image credit: Shutterstock)

The third plague, lice, could mean either lice, fleas or gnats based on the Hebrew word (Keenim). If a toxic algal bloom led to the first plague, and a pile of dead frogs followed, it's not surprising that a swarm of insects of some sort would have followed. That's because frogs typically eat insects; without them, the fly population could have exploded, Stephan Pflugmacher, a climatologist Leibniz Institute for Water Ecology and Inland Fisheries in Berlin, said in a television special about the plagues that aired on the National Geographic Channel in 2010. Interestingly, both body lice and fleas can theoretically transmit the bacteria Yersinia pestis, which causes bubonic plague, according to a 2010 study published in the journal Emerging Infectious Diseases . If so, then an infestation with lice could have set the stage for the later plagues, such as boils, a 2008 review of plague science found . Scientists have also argued that the sickness that killed the beasts of the field for Egyptians in later plagues might have been Bluetongue or African horse sickness, both of which can be spread by insects from this plague, according to a 2008 Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine .  

Wild Beasts

(Image credit: Shutterstock)

Once again, the Hebrew word for the fourth plague, arov, is ambiguous. It roughly translates to a "mixture," and over the years, rabbis had interpreted that word to mean either wild animals, hornets or mosquitoes, or even wolf-like beasts that prowl in the night, according to biblical commentary found in the Exodus Rabbah 11:3; Tanchuma, Va'eira 14. Most commonly, people interpret the text to mean wild animals such as venomous snakes or scorpions, or even lions or bears. However, according to a 1996 study published in the journal Caduceus , which attempts to explain the plagues as epidemiological problems caused by an initial climate disturbance, J.S. Marr and C.D. Malloy argue that the fourth plague represents a swarm of flies such as the stable fly ( Stomoxys calcitrans ). Bites from these flies could have led to the boils that occurred later on in the story, according to that study.

Diseased Livestock

(Image credit: PRISMA ARCHIVO/Alamy)

The fifth plague called down on Egypt was a mysterious and highly contagious disease that swiftly killed off the Egyptians' livestock. This biblical scourge is reminiscent of a real plague known as rinderpest, an infectious and lethal viral disease that decimated populations of cattle and other ruminants across Africa and Europe from the 18th through the late 19th centuries.

Rinderpest was caused by a virus in the same family as canine distemper and measles; infected animals developed a high fever, diarrhea and ulcers in their mouths and noses, according to a manual diagnosing rinderpest, produced by the Food and Agriculture Association of the United Nations.

The disease is thought to have originated in Asia, and traveled to Egypt 5,000 years ago along prehistoric trading routes, the New York Times reported in 2010. Its mortality rate was exceptionally high, often exceeding 80 percent. It killed an estimated 200 million cattle in the 18th century, according to a study published in the journal Medical History in 1997, and when rinderpest emerged in Africa in the 19th century, it killed 5.2 million cattle, causing one-third of the population of Ethiopia to die of starvation, a study published in the journal Science reported in 2008.  

Rinderpest was last diagnosed in Kenya in 2001, and was declared completely eradicated in 2010, according to the New York Times.

Boils

(Image credit: Shutterstock)

Shortly after the Egyptians' livestock died off, they were distracted by the sixth plague — an extremely uncomfortable plague of boils that covered their bodies. Boils are painful bumps usually surrounded by red, swollen skin, and are typically caused by Staphylococcus aureus, a type of bacteria commonly found on the skin's surface, according to the Mayo Clinic .

An outbreak of the highly infectious disease smallpox, which caused distinctive raised blisters, could result in a large number of people simultaneously coming down with rashes and welts. Smallpox is thought to have affected communities in Egypt at least 3,000 years ago, based on evidence of smallpox scars found on several mummies dating back to that period — including the mummy of Pharaoh Ramses V, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Fiery Hail

(Image credit: Michael Folmer/Alamy)

The seventh plague brought a heavy hail accompanied by thunder and streaming fire. The chaotic weather struck down people, livestock and trees, although the area of Goshen, where the Israelites lived, was spared, according to the book "Tanakh, A New Translation of The Holy Scriptures" (The Jewish Publication Society, 1985).

A nearby volcanic eruption about 3,500 years ago on Santorini, an island north of Crete in the Aegean Sea, may explain this plague, as well as others. It's possible that the volcanic ash mixed with thunderstorms above Egypt, leading to a dramatic hailstorm, Nadine von Blohm, from the Institute for Atmospheric Physics in Germany,  told the Telegraph

Locusts

(Image credit: Keystone/Getty)

When the Pharaoh once again refuses to let the Jewish people go, hungry locusts descend as the eighth plague. Moses warns the Pharaoh: "They shall cover the surface of the land, so that no one will be able to see the land." Such a pestilence would devour all the remaining plants that the hail did not destroy, Moses said, according to the "Tanakh."

The volcanic eruption on Santorini may have created favorable conditions for the locusts, said Siro Trevisanato, a Canadian molecular biologist and author of "The Plagues of Egypt: Archaeology, History and Science Look at the Bible" (Gorgias Press, 2005).

"The ash fallout caused weather anomalies, which translates into higher precipitations, higher humidity," Trevisanato  told the Telegraph . "And that's exactly what fosters the presence of the locusts."

Darkness

(Image credit: Shutterstock)

The plague of darkness may have been a solar eclipse or a cloud of volcanic ash, scholars say.

According to the Old Testament, a darkness so thick that "people could not see one another" descended on Egypt for three days. However, the "Israelites enjoyed light in their dwellings," according to the book "Tanakh, A New Translation of The Holy Scriptures" (The Jewish Publication Society, 1985).

Perhaps the darkness coincided with an eclipse on March 5, 1223 B.C. — you can  see the path here  on NASA's website — according to  a study written by Iurii Mosenkis , an archaeoastronomy researcher who lives in the Ukraine. However, the fact that Israelites had light in their homes might mean "lights out" for the eclipse hypothesis, as it doesn't make scientific sense why some people, but not others could overcome the darkness. 

Another idea is that a volcanic eruption about 3,500 years ago on Santorini, an island north of Crete in the Aegean Sea, spewed ash that caused the darkness,  according a to National Geographic special, as reported by the Telegraph . However, the eruption happened about 500 miles (800 kilometers) from Egypt and before the exodus event,  according to the Christian Courier

Killing Of The Firstborn

(Image credit: Shutterstock)

In the 10th, and last plague, Moses tells the Pharaoh that all the firstborns in the land of Egypt would perish.

Perhaps, the algal bloom that turned the rivers blood red released mycotoxins, poisonous substances that can cause disease and death in humans, according to a 2003 review in the  journal Clinical Microbiology Reviews . Grain contaminated with these mycotoxins could have been deadly, and could explain the death of the firstborn children, said epidemiologist John Marr, who was the chief epidemiologist at the New York City Department of Health,  as reported by Slate

The firstborn might have been the first to pick the grain, and thus would have fallen victim to it first as well, according to the Telegraph. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/58638-science-of-the-10-plagues.html

 
 
 
MAGA
15.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  MAGA @15    2 months ago

There is no doubt that the plagues resemble things that happened there then and around the world since.  God coordinated /caused these events to happen in Egypt to advance His will for His people then and in the future.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
15.1.1  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @15.1    2 months ago
God coordinated /caused these events to happen in Egypt to advance His will for His people then and in the future.  

Odd how you've never proven that assertion, nor backed it up with anything empirical. It's just another baseless claim.

 
 
 
MAGA
15.1.2  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @15.1.1    2 months ago

And your point is? God said it, that settles it.  I believe it to be true.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
15.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @15.1.2    2 months ago

The point is, belief does not equal truth or fact! Just because you believe something is true doesn't mean it is, especially since there is not any evidence to support such an assertion. Neither have you provided any or defended your assertion with anything of substance. So it's nothing more than wishful thinking followed by burying your head in the sand to avoid anything contradictory to your belief.

 
 
 
TᵢG
15.1.4  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @15.1.2    2 months ago
And your point is? God said it, that settles it.  I believe it to be true.  

It is almost certainly a fact that ancient men 'said it' without any divine guidance.   I know you believe the Bible is divine, but I can make a cogent article as to why it is most likely not divine.   Do you have something more than:  'I just believe it is divine'?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
15.1.5  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  MAGA @15.1    2 months ago
God coordinated /caused these events to happen

That negates the "all forgiving and loving god" that christians like to tout.  

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
15.1.6  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Gordy327 @15.1.1    2 months ago

But this is TA's article. jrSmiley_82_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Veronica
15.1.7  Veronica  replied to  Gordy327 @15.1.1    2 months ago

Wait - is he arguing your articles in his article even though it is completely off topic?  

 
 
 
Gordy327
15.1.8  Gordy327  replied to  Veronica @15.1.7    2 months ago

Yes. What's funny is, he claims the bible is the literal truth, but he cites sources which actually supports natural, scientific explanations and not religious "explanations." He did the same in my articles too.  So he basically refuted his own claim. LOL

 
 
 
Veronica
15.1.9  Veronica  replied to  Gordy327 @15.1.8    2 months ago
So he basically refuted his own claim.

Interesting way to argue.

 
 
 
Gordy327
15.1.10  Gordy327  replied to  Veronica @15.1.9    2 months ago

If you even want to call it that. But it does reinforce my credibility while destroying his own at the same time.

 
 
 
MAGA
15.1.11  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Veronica @15.1.9    2 months ago

No I didn’t.  God orchestrated events whether he uses what we can now be explained as a stand alone natural event in concert with his will or used natural sciences way beyond what we can comprehend how it was done to this day to achieve His will we can still call it a miracle because we cant understand all that an all powerful, all present, all knowing, everlasting God is capable of doing.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
15.1.12  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @15.1.11    2 months ago

A baseless assumption lacking any evidence or facts as usual. All the events have a scientific and natural explanation, without the need to invoke a god, much less the evidence to support such an assertion. 

 
 
 
Krishna
15.1.13  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @15.1.2    2 months ago
God said it, that settles it.  I believe it to be true.

How do you know what God* (Peace Be Upon Him!) actually said-- were you there?

[*Assuming that God actually exists...but that's another story...]

 
 
 
Krishna
15.1.14  Krishna  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @15.1.5    2 months ago
God coordinated /caused these events to happen
That negates the "all forgiving and loving god" that christians like to tout.  

Sadly, there really is no cure for "Stuck on Stupid" jrSmiley_5_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
15.1.15  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Krishna @15.1.14    2 months ago

And there seems to be so many stuck.

 
 
 
Krishna
15.2  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @15    2 months ago

Is it colder in the Winter-- or in the mountains? jrSmiley_26_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
MAGA
16  seeder  MAGA    2 months ago

The Flood

the-flood.jpg

The Flood of Noah’s day (2348 BC) was a year-long global catastrophe that destroyed the pre-Flood world, reshaped the continents, buried billions of creatures, and laid down the rock layers. It was God’s judgment on man’s wickedness and only eight righteous people, and representatives of every kind of land animal, were spared aboard the Ark.

Was Noah’s Flood Global?

Did Noah experience a local flood which left only a few sediment layers, as floods do today? God’s record is clear: the water covered the entire globe and killed all the animals on earth. Such unique conditions are the only way to explain worldwide fossil-bearing layers thousands of feet deep.

Local Floods Help Us Understand Noah’s Flood Geology

Geologists repeatedly discover the catastrophic effects of local flooding on the earth’s surface, resulting in the same conclusion each time: that substantial amounts of water can have the same geological effect in a short period of time (even laying down rock layers) that hypothesized millions of years of slow water flow would have.

Noah Did More than Build an Ark

Like people today, almost certainly the people of Noah’s day were busy enjoying the pleasures of life and did not believe or care that judgment was coming. In 2 Peter 2:5 , Noah is described as a “ preacher of righteousness .”

Psalm 104 and the Flood

Psalm 104:6–9 sheds important additional light on the geological effects of the Flood. “The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place which You established for them” ( vs. 8 ).

The Flood Topics

  • Catastrophism

    Are current, slow geologic processes the key to understanding earth’s past, or was history marked by a global, earth-shaping catastrophe?

  • Flood Legends

    Flood legends abound globally across many distinct cultures. These legends point to the reality of the global Flood and the integrity of the account in Genesis.

  • Global Flood

    Was the Genesis Flood merely a localized event or was it a global catastrophe that judged and destroyed the world of that time?

  • Ice Age

    How should the Ice Age, glaciers, and wooly mammoths be understood within the framework of the Bible’s history?

  • Thinking Outside the Box

    The purpose of the articles in this series is to raise ideas about Noah, his world, the Ark, and the Flood in ways that most people have not considered before.

News About The Flood

  • News

    Local Flood Theory: Why It Doesn’t Work

    local-flood-400x225.jpg

    Responding to Hugh Ross’ local flood arguments and naturalistic assumptions, while making sense of a biblical, global flood.

Articles About The Flood

  • Book Chapter

    Were There Any Volcanoes, High Mountains, and Earthquakes Before the Flood?

    volcanoes-mountains-earthquakes-before-flood.jpg

    The Scriptures are silent on the issue of whether there were any volcanoes or earthquakes in the world before the Flood, but we do know there were mountains.

  • Book Chapter

    Layers of Sedimentary Rock Deposited by Global Flood

    flood-cataclysm-deposit-uniform-rock-layers.jpg

    How could neat uniform sedimentary rock layers be deposited during the Flood cataclysm with all the fast-moving waters?

  • Rainbow Meaning: On Colors and Memes

    rainbow-meaning-on-colors-and-memes-400x225.jpg

    Dec. 13, 2019

    As Christians seek to engage in the rainbow’s meaning, particularly on social platforms, a particular biblical-sounding truth claim has become popular.

  • Semi-Technical Magazine Article

    Did Meteors Trigger Noah’s Flood?

    did-meteors-trigger-noahs-flood.jpg

    Geologists are uncovering evidence that meteors struck the earth throughout the Flood. Could they even have played a role in starting the Flood?

  • April 3, 2019

    April 3 is “Find a Rainbow Day.” People love rainbows. They’re part of legends and fairytales. But there’s more to rainbows than fantasy.

  • Magazine Department Article

    How Could Geology Possibly Affect Spiritual Truth?

    geology-spiritual-truth.jpg

    You can’t separate the truth about God’s work in the physical world from spiritual truths without drastic consequences.

  • Magazine Department Article

    Stumped by Forests in Antarctica

    antarctica.jpg

    Forests in Antarctica? This frigid, forbidding continent is full of surprising evidences for the worldwide flood.

  • Magazine Department Article

    Power of Past Super-Floods

    the-flood.jpg

    What evidence do we see that a global Flood devastated the earth’s surface during Noah’s day—on a scale unlike anything we see today?

 
 
 
MAGA
16.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  MAGA @16    2 months ago

There is a lot of real science that shows the global flood happened and the effects of it.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
16.1.1  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @16.1    2 months ago
There is a lot of real science that shows the global flood happened and the effects of it.  

There is a lot of some real pseudo science that shows claims the global flood happened and the effects of it.   Just go to Answers In Genesis, et. al. to find almost incessant pseudo-science.

 
 
 
MAGA
16.1.2  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @16.1.1    2 months ago

It’s called the truth.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
16.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @16.1.2    2 months ago

Truth requires actual facts and credible sources to be truth. AiG & other like biased sources are quite factually bankrupt. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
16.1.4  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  MAGA @16.1.2    2 months ago
It’s called the truth.

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif Truth?  LMAO.  This is another example of your "loving and forgiving god" annihilating it's "creation because it wasn't going to plan.  The story of the flood does away with the omniscient god idea as well.

If you believe in what the bible tells you then why would you support such a childish, vindictive "god"?  

 
 
 
Gordy327
16.1.5  Gordy327  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @16.1.4    2 months ago
If you believe in what the bible

If one believes the bible (literally), then logically one must also believe slavery is moral too

 
 
 
TᵢG
16.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @16.1.2    2 months ago
It’s called the truth.  

That is not an argument nor even a rebuttal.   Nuh’ uh does not advance the discussion; it simply illustrates an inability to support one’s position.   

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
16.1.7  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Gordy327 @16.1.5    2 months ago

The fact they believe the bible is evidence of illogical thinking.  But you're right.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
16.1.8  Gordy327  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @16.1.7    2 months ago

Illogical and irrational. Especially given the contradictions in the bible and the obvious fallacies in its stories.

 
 
 
MAGA
16.1.9  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @16.1.5    2 months ago

Wrong again!  

 
 
 
MAGA
16.1.10  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @16.1.4    2 months ago

That’s not what the Bible reveals to most people.  

 
 
 
MAGA
16.1.11  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @16.1.8    2 months ago

Thank you all for proving the absolute truth the the headline of the article by live demonstrations thereof.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
16.1.12  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @16.1.9    2 months ago

Then elaborate why! Empty declarations mean nothing.

 
 
 
Gordy327
16.1.13  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @16.1.11    2 months ago

That's just an emotional reaction which doesn't refute or address anything I said.

 
 
 
Gordy327
16.1.14  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @16.1.10    2 months ago

And you that how? Clearly what the Bible "reveals" is quite subjective and open to interpretation.

 
 
 
TᵢG
16.1.15  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @16.1.12    2 months ago

Yes, good grief, these endless nuh 'uh responses add nothing to the discussion.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
16.1.16  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Gordy327 @16.1.8    2 months ago

They get around that by cherry picking.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
16.1.17  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  MAGA @16.1.10    2 months ago

Only those who lack critical thinking skills.

 
 
 
Gordy327
16.1.18  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @16.1.15    2 months ago
these endless nuh 'uh responses add nothing to the discussion.

Tell me about it. 

 
 
 
MAGA
16.1.19  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @16.1.17    2 months ago

So I guess I’ll be lacking critical thinking skills when I vote for Trump in November or when I support a strong national defense or strong deals with our trading powers or support lower taxes and fewer regulations or energy independence... are all my positions on those issues because I lack critical thinking skills?  

 
 
 
Gordy327
16.1.20  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @16.1.19    2 months ago

Yes!

 
 
 
TᵢG
16.1.21  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @16.1.19    2 months ago
So I guess I’ll be lacking critical thinking skills when I vote for Trump in November or when I support a strong national defense or strong deals with our trading powers or support lower taxes and fewer regulations or energy independence... are all my positions on those issues because I lack critical thinking skills?  

I am pretty sure Jeremy was talking about 'truth' people derive from the Bible.   So your leap to political decisions is misguided (unless you are claiming your political decisions are based on the Bible).

HA @16.1.10That’s not what the Bible reveals to most people.  
Jeremy @16.1.17 Only those who lack critical thinking skills.

Seems like you missed the point.

 
 
 
MAGA
16.1.22  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @16.1.12    2 months ago

Almost All that The secularists post here are empty declarations that mean nothing.  

 
 
 
MAGA
16.1.23  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @16.1.13    2 months ago

You actually said something here....?

 
 
 
MAGA
16.1.24  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @16.1.21    2 months ago

I missed nothing

 
 
 
Tessylo
16.1.25  Tessylo  replied to  MAGA @16.1.22    2 months ago

Everything you post here are empty declarations that mean nothing.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
16.1.26  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @16.1.22    2 months ago

I see you prefer to go meta rather than actually discuss the points made.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
16.1.27  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  TᵢG @16.1.21    2 months ago
I am pretty sure Jeremy was talking about 'truth' people derive from the Bible.

That's exactly what I was talking about. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
16.1.28  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  MAGA @16.1.19    2 months ago

You don't understand my point  so you try to change the subject?  

 
 
 
Krishna
16.1.29  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @16.1    2 months ago
There is a lot of real science that shows the global flood happened and the effects of it.

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Krishna
16.1.30  Krishna  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @16.1.4    2 months ago

I'm not

 
 
 
Krishna
16.1.31  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @16.1.30    2 months ago

[.]

 
 
 
MAGA
17  seeder  MAGA    2 months ago

Were Adam and Eve Actual People?

Can a person accept the Genesis account of creation without believing that Adam and Eve were actually the first humans?

Allegorical

Some Christians view Adam and Eve as allegorical figures. These scholars believe there were humans, or sub-humans, existing before Adam and Eve. The anthropologist H. Wade Seaford writes:

A literalistic interpretation of the creation story generates insurmountable problems for contemporary Christians who are acquainted with scientific knowledge. The human species did not begin in the ecological and cultural setting described in the opening chapters of Genesis. There were many populations of people before Adam and Eve, as literally understood. Only by allegorical interpretation can theology, be noncontradictive to archaeology, biochemistry, biology, and paleoanthropology (H. Wade Seaford in The Genesis Debate , Ronald Youngblood Ed., Nashville: Thomas Nelson and Sons, 1986, p. 163).


Representative Of Humankind

Other Christian scholars see Adam and Eve as representative of humankind, not as literal individuals. George Kufeldt, an Old Testament authority, writes:

At issue is the significance and meaning of the Hebrew term adam . It is certain that its meaning here is not a personal name since it has the definite article: 'the' adam . Since the text says that God created 'the' adam male and female, it is apparent that the adam is to be construed as a collective noun, to be interpreted something like 'mankind, humankind, human race.' . . . Theologically adam is 'Everyman/Everywoman' (George Kufeldt in The Genesis Debate , p. 149).

Evidence for humankind living longer than 10,000 years ago leads many to take Adam and Eve as representative of humanity. Tim Hawthorne writes:

Others see Adam (the Hebrew word for man) and Eve (Hebrew, living) as representing all humans of their day, Genesis itself indicating that there were others . . . among whom Cain went to live. For me, this view fits better with what we know of early man. There is evidence for instance, that homo sapiens lived in Australia and America 10,000 years ago (Tim Hawthorne, Windows of Science and Faith , Leceister, England, Intervarsity Press, 1986, p. 86).

ADAM AND EVE WERE REAL PEOPLE

However, when one studies the Bible it becomes clear that the historicity of Adam and Eve is essential to the message of Scripture.

1.Treated As Actual Humans

As we read the early chapters of Genesis, we find Adam and Eve treated as real people. There is absolutely nothing in the account to suggest that they were anything but actual people. Furthermore, the human race had to start somewhere! Why not with Adam and Eve.
2.Children Were Born To Them

The Bible records Adam and Eve giving birth to children ( Genesis 4:1 , 25 ). This is another indication they were real people.

3.Phrase Used Of Real People

The repeated phrase in the Book of Genesis, This is the history of, is used not only of Adam and Eve, but of other people who actually existed. Since the same phrase is used of those whose existence is not in doubt, Adam and Eve should be treated the same as them-people who really existed.

4.Old Testament Genealogies

The chronology of the Old Testament also gives evidence to the existence of Adam and Eve. In 1 Chronicles 1:1 , Adam is listed first in the genealogy. He is named with other people whose existence is not in doubt.

5.Genealogy Of Jesus

The New Testament clearly teaches that Adam and Eve were actual people. In the genealogy of Jesus, Adam is considered to be a literal person. The Gospel of Luke records that Jesus' lineage went back to,

The son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God ( Luke 3:38 ).

Adam's existence is put on the same level as the existence of God in this passage. It is also plain that Jesus was a descendant of an individual named Adam seeing that all other names in the genealogy were of individuals.

6.Jesus' Testimony

We refer to the testimony of Jesus:

Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female ( Matthew 19:4 ).

This passage teaches that Adam and Eve were literally created by God.

7.Sin, Death, Salvation

The biblical teaching of sin entering the world, death as a result of sin, and the need for the death of Christ upon the cross, are all based upon the fact that Adam was an actual person. The Apostle Paul believed in a literal understanding of the Fall of Adam and Eve as recorded in Genesis 3 .

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. . . Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses ( Romans 5:12 , 14 ).

In this passage Adam, as the first man, is credited with the responsibility of bringing sin into the world. He is also compared to Moses, a historical figure.

8.Adam, The First Man

Scripture specifically says that Adam was the first man.

So also it is written, The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit ( 1 Corinthians 15:45 ).

9.Doctrine Of Resurrection

The biblical doctrine of resurrection is based upon a literal understanding of Adam:

For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive ( 1 Corinthians 15:21 , 22 ).

The past resurrection of Christ is consistently portrayed in Scripture as literally occurring. The same holds true for the resurrection of believers in the future. Because of Adam all of us die, because of Christ, believers shall be raised to be with Him.

10. Adam Was Formed First

In another place Paul wrote:

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression ( 1 Timothy 2:13 , 14 ).

This testifies to his actual existence as the first man.

Summary

From the biblical evidence it is clear that Adam was an actual human being-the first creation of the Lord.

Eve


Eve's literal existence is also essential to the message of the Bible. The following biblical teachings are based on her existence:

1.The basis of a biblical marriage ( Matthew 19:4-9 )

2.Divorce ( Matthew 19:4-10 )

3.The evils of ( Romans 1:25-27 )

4.Immorality ( 1 Corinthians 6:13-16 )

5.The husband to be head of the wife ( Ephesians 5:23 ) ( 1 Corinthians 11:3 )

6.The wife to be submissive to husband ( Ephesians 5:22 , 24 )

7. The spiritual role of women ( 1 Timothy 2:11-14 )

Circumstantial Evidence

Dr. William Smith, a scholar of one hundred years ago, wrote the following concerning the biblical account of Adam and Eve and the Fall of humankind.

We must not omit to notice the traces of these truths, which are found among many nations. The Greek legend of Pandora traces the entrance of evil to a woman; the Buddhist and Chinese traditions refer the beginning of sin to eating forbidden fruit and desiring forbidden knowledge; and most systems of mythology make the serpent a type of the power of evil, and a divine personage his destroyer. Delitzsch well says, 'The story of the Fall, like that of the Creation, has wandered over the world. Heathen nations have transplanted and mixed it up with their geography, their history, their mythology, although it has never so completely changed form, and color, and spirit, that you can not recognize it. Here, however, in the Law, it preserves the character of a universal, human, world-wide fact: and the groans of Creation, the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and the heart of every man, conspire in their testimony to the most literal truth of the narrative.' The recollection of the tree of life is preserved in the sacred tree of the Assyrians and Hindoos, and in other Eastern systems of mythology (The Old Testament History , edited by Dr. William Smith, 1865, p. 29).

Recent Evidence

There is also recent evidence that Adam is not merely a word for humankind in general, but it is an actual proper name. In the 1970's, tablets were discovered in northern Syria at a place called Ebla. In the ancient cuneiform text, the name Adam was discovered as a personal name. This is the first example found outside of Scripture where the term Adam was applied to an individual. Therefore it is not necessary to assume that Adam is some kind of word referring to mankind in general rather than a name of one specific individual. As we have seen, the Bible consistently treats Adam as an individual and so should we.

Summary

The Bible consistently teaches that Adam and Eve were actual people, and that their literal existence is essential to understanding the remainder of Scripture. Any attempt to allegorize them, or to make them representative of mankind, places many major biblical teachings at risk.   https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_696.cfm

 
 
 
MAGA
17.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  MAGA @17    2 months ago

Secularist and other anti theists know that if they can cast doubt on creation, the first humans, original sin, and the flood and the population of the earth since it they can ultimately discount and attack all Jewish and Christian beliefs and the very credibility of God Himself.  

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
17.1.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  MAGA @17.1    2 months ago

These are strictly Christian beliefs. Jewish people who actually wrote these stories, never consider Eden or the flood as truth, but as a parable. And Jews don't believe in original sin. They believe that everyone is born sinless and their deeds decide their fate. Please don't conflate the two faiths.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
17.1.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  MAGA @17.1    2 months ago
Secularist and other anti theists know that if they can cast doubt on creation, the first humans, original sin, and the flood

I find it funny that some believe it's "casting doubt" on something that's never been proved. That's like saying that the physics, tensile strength and slipperiness of pasta casts doubt on the belief in the flying spaghetti monster, I mean, how does all that pasta hold together without slipping off the fork? Rational humans doubt beliefs that have never been proved and have no empirical evidence especially when there exists contrary evidence. It is not anti-Christian to say the evidence does not support the Genesis account of first humans. There are millions of rational Christians who can accept that fact and understand that the Genesis story was most likely allegory, more like Aesop's fables which can contain good advice for living, but shouldn't be taken literally. It also likely included events based in some truth, like the fact that many cultures have stories of a flood, but the evidence suggests this was a regional flood at best, not a global flood covering the whole earth. But the story isn't ruined when you understand that, it doesn't mean you can't glean something from the story of Noah and his family just because you understand it was a regional flood that they (or perhaps it was the hero Gilgamesh) survived.

The point is, you can keep believing if you want to as well as accept the evidence and facts. You don't have to believe the earth is only 9,000 years old while still believing in the stories and wisdom found in the bible. It's not a binary choice, all or nothing.

 
 
 
TᵢG
17.1.3  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @17.1    2 months ago
Secularist and other anti theists know that if they can cast doubt on creation, the first humans, original sin, and the flood and the population of the earth since it they can ultimately discount and attack all Jewish and Christian beliefs and the very credibility of God Himself.  

Actually, what is taking place is critical analysis of the Bible.   Some people cling to the Bible as divine and ignore (confirmation bias) all contradictions and errors so as to retain their beliefs.   Others evaluate the Bible and realize that it is almost certainly the work of imaginative ancient men with no divine, perfect, omniscient editor.

Thing is, when the religious and irreligious engage, the irreligious typically offer facts and reason.   The thoughtful case is made with a real supporting argument.   The religious response, in most cases, is not thoughtful but rather emotional.   The responses demand that 'the Bible is divine truth' or invent apologetics in an almost certainly failed attempt to explain away the errors and contradictions.

One sees this clearly in comments.   The religious articles are challenged with facts and reason whereas the irreligious articles are spammed and trolled with precious few comments offering facts and reason.

What you call 'attack' is simply a challenge based on disagreement.   The motivation for challenging religious claims of certainty is the pursuit of truth rather than the perpetuation of declarations made by religious authorities.

 
 
 
Gordy327
17.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @17.1    2 months ago

If you want to establish credibility for god, then start by proving there is a god! That would certainly go a long way towards credibility. As it is, God and many biblical stories are completely non-credible. Especially when evidence and logic contradicts them.

 
 
 
MAGA
17.1.5  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @17.1.1    2 months ago
MCvk9145292.jpg?_i=_n32DD4A5CE5B405756B86D11830CBE5B1https://w3.chabad.org/media/images/914/MCvk9145292.jpg?_i=_n76B3E6A404D908E662A1538A4A879637 480w" sizes="(min-width: 768px) 685px, 100vw" >

FOOTNOTES
1.

Unless otherwise noted, the information in this article is gleaned from Genesis 1-5 and commentaries.

2.

Bereshit Rabbah 17:4.

3.

According to Targum Yonatan to Genesis 2:21 , G‑d used the thirteenth rib of Adam’s right side.

4.

See Sefer Hasichot 5749 vol. 1, p. 24 fn. 36.

5.

Some commentators learn that Adam, a mortal human, would have met eventual death in either case, and the sin merely hastened this occurrence. According to another approach, if not for the sin, Adam would have enjoyed eternal life (see Rashi to Psalms 25:6 and 90:4. Ramban (Nachmanides) to Genesis 2:17) .

6.

Rashi to Genesis 23:2 .

7.

Rashi to Genesis 2:7 .

8.

Berachot 61a. Eiruvin 18a-b.

9.

Hayom Yom, entry for 4 Elul.

10.

Shnei Luchot Habrit, Bereishit.

11.

Likkutei Sichot vol. 3, pp. 747ff.

12.

See Igrot Kodeshvol. 2, p. 68.

Urpu10678926.jpg
Rabbi Yehuda Altein is a writer, translator and editor specializing in Jewish subjects and handwritten family material. A former researcher for JLI’s Machon Shmuel Research Institute, he has written on Jewish history, scriptural exegesis, halachah, and chassidut. Yehuda resides in Brooklyn, N.Y., with his family and enjoys collecting antique Judaica and exploring natural history in the Torah. He can be contacted at yaltein.writing@gmail.com .   https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/246606/jewish/The-Story-of-Adam-and-Eve-in-the-Bible.htm
 
 
 
MAGA
17.1.6  seeder  MAGA  replied to  MAGA @17.1.5    2 months ago
 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
17.1.7  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  MAGA @17.1.5    2 months ago

HA,

You can't just put down links to a Chabad site without understanding what I have been trying to say or Jewish philosophy. I will give you an example from one of your links:

From where did G‑d take the earth used to form Adam? One opinion is that G‑d collected earth from all four corners of the world, so that wherever man dies, the earth will accept him for burial. Others maintain that the earth originated from the future site of the altar of the HolyTemple. By integrating this location into man’s physical makeup, it is easier for us to achieve atonement. TheTalmudrecords a dispute as to how Eve was created from Adam. One approach is that Eve was created from a small section of flesh removed from Adam (as is commonly understood). According to an alternative view, G‑d originally created a dual human being possessing two bodies attached at the back, one male and one female. G‑d then separated Eve from Adam and they continued to exist as two entities.

Please take note, that although the Torah (OT) says one thing, the Talmud argues several other points. It is from these points that other Rabbis would argue further. This is part of the Jewish tradition. It is not taken verbatim from the Torah (OT). 

 
 
 
MAGA
17.1.8  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @17.1.7    2 months ago

I’ve been told that Muslims don’t worship “the same god’ as others do, which doesn’t make sense to me because it implies that there is more than one god. I think a better way to say it is that we don’t all understand God in the same way.

Islam teaches that Adam and Eve disobeyed God, repented, asked for forgiveness and God forgave them. They had to suffer the consequences of their actions by living a mortal life on earth, but their relationship with God was never changed. God has always remained accessible. The concept of Original Sin is not part of Islamic doctrine. Muslims believe humans are born without sin and with a desire to please God. We have free will, which causes us to go astray at times, but God is always willing to forgive.

To me, the most important aspect of the Adam and Eve story is that it demonstrates God’s capacity for forgiveness. Aside from His forgiving nature, the Quran mentions 99 attributes of God which help to deepen my relationship with Him. Those attributes include: The most Merciful, the Most Kind, the Protecting Friend, the Equitable One, the Patient One, the Judge, the Just, and the One who loves to Forgive. Another aspect of God’s love is the Islamic concept that if we just turn toward God, He comes running toward us. He’s not only our judge, but our attorney, our character witness and our trusted friend; He’s cheering for us and wants us to succeed.....https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.charlotteobserver.com/living/religion/article124740379.html

 
 
 
MAGA
17.1.9  seeder  MAGA  replied to  MAGA @17.1.8    2 months ago

Observant members of all three religions of The Book believe an account of Adam and Eve.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
17.1.10  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @17.1.8    2 months ago
I’ve been told that Muslims don’t worship “the same god’ as others do, which doesn’t make sense to me because it implies that there is more than one god. I think a better way to say it is that we don’t all understand God in the same way.

Indeed, with research you will immediately find that Islam is based on the foundation of the OT and NT in the Bible.   That Islam holds the God of the OT to be the supreme entity;  they simply call Him Allah instead of Yahweh, Elohim, Jehovah, etc.   So its seem you are correct on this point.

However, there are elements of Islam that hold the OT (and NT) is wrong and that the Qur'an (being the final revelation) corrects all its errors.  So the god as defined by the Bible is considered Allah, but many Muslim authorities would argue that the definition and description of God in the OT is not entirely correct and indeed inferior to that of the Qur'an.

The concept of Original Sin is not part of Islamic doctrine. Muslims believe humans are born without sin and with a desire to please God. We have free will, which causes us to go astray at times, but God is always willing to forgive.

Yes that is a key departure of Islam from the Christian interpretation of the OT.   I am surprised you acknowledge this.


Oh, I gave you credit where none is due.   Now I see your entire comment are the words of someone else.   Good grief man, at least use quotation marks.    jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
MAGA
17.1.11  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @17.1.10    2 months ago

It’s properly attributed so stop your pointless meta complaining.  I never maintained that Islam, Judaism, Christianity agree on a lot.  I was simply pointing out that all three agree that Adam and Eve existed and were created by God.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
17.1.12  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @17.1.11    2 months ago
I was simply pointing out that all three agree that Adam and Eve existed and were created by God.  

Not sure anyone suggested otherwise (per the religions).   All three Abrahamic religions hold that Adam and Eve existed.   Note the point you made on this thread:

HA @17.1Secularist and other anti theists know that if they can cast doubt on creation, the first humans, original sin, and the flood and the population of the earth since it they can ultimately discount and attack all Jewish and Christian beliefs and the very credibility of God Himself.  

Perrie's comment was that original sin, the flood, Eden, etc. is not considered truth by Judaism: 

Perrie @17.1.1These are strictly Christian beliefs. Jewish people who actually wrote these stories, never consider Eden or the flood as truth, but as a parable. And Jews don't believe in original sin. They believe that everyone is born sinless and their deeds decide their fate. Please don't conflate the two faiths.

Your quoted comment even notes that original sin is not supported by Islam.   It seems to me your reply to Perrie addressed that which was not in dispute (existence of Adam and Eve) and failed to deal with that which was in dispute (Eden, original sin, flood).

 
 
 
MAGA
17.1.13  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @17.1.12    2 months ago

Well Moses their lawgiver wrote all of the first five books of the Bible and his writings were divinely inspired.  The Jews living during the transition from Old Testament times to the new certainly did believe it was all literally true.  Some followed after the Greeks and mixed in some of their world view but few living at the time right up to the fall of Jerusalem and the forced relocation by Rome denied the legitimacy of what Moses wrote.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
17.1.14  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @17.1.13    2 months ago
Well Moses their lawgiver wrote all of the first five books of the Bible and his writings were divinely inspired.  

You are not aware that biblical scholars generally hold that Moses (assuming he even existed) did not write the Pentateuch?

The Jews living during the transition from Old Testament times to the new certainly did believe it was all literally true.  

People believed the Sun orbited the Earth, etc.   Ignorance allows people to believe that which is not true.

Some followed after the Greeks and mixed in some of their world view but few living at the time right up to the fall of Jerusalem and the forced relocation by Rome denied the legitimacy of what Moses wrote.  

Belief is not fact, not even evidence.   People easily believe ... people are easily persuaded.   Believing what other people claim as truth is far easier than thinking critically given the research and mental energy required to do so.

 
 
 
Krishna
17.2  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @17    2 months ago
Were Adam and Eve Actual People?

"Actual People"?

I have no idea...

However, many people are saying that both Adam and Eve had "Alien DNA"!!!

 
 
 
MAGA
18  seeder  MAGA    2 months ago

Anti-Christian Bigotry Is The Last Acceptable Prejudice.

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @18    2 months ago

I am not bigoted against Christians; almost all of my friends and family are Christians.   Some are Jewish.   I know but a few Muslims.   The remaining rather slim minority are agnostic atheists.    It is not the individuals that I find to be problematic, it is the religious mindset ... the degree to which people suspend their critical thinking faculties in order to accept —on faith— that which religious authorities deem to be truth.

I do not normally speak of Christians (as a stereotype);  I suspect I probably speak more of Muslims than Christians.   I reject thinking in terms of stereotypes (something that you are quite fond of doing).   Christians span the spectrum from devout fundamentalists to essentially agnostic theists.   There is no single meaning to the concept of 'being a Christian' other than the generic 'following the teachings of Jesus Christ'.   To me, thinking in terms of stereotypes is lazy and highly error prone.   If an individual fires on a few of the defining characteristics for a stereotype then voilà that person immediately is ascribed with all the nasty attributes that go with the stereotype.   Again, that is over-simplistic thinking;  a poor way to operate.

Similarly, lumping all skeptics, irreligious, etc. into stereotypes is errant, lazy thinking.   It is inherently presumptive and due to the negative attributes of the stereotype, is a mechanism for bigotry.

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.1  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @18.1    2 months ago

Did you feel a twinge of conscience or guilt or something?  What you responded to was a new thread directed at no specific person and was merely a restatement of the headline of the article.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @18.1.1    2 months ago

You repeated the title in your comment with no other content.   That established a context that was simply the title which exclaimed anti-Christian bigotry.

Given that context, I noted that I have no bigotry against Christians and explained why.   Then, having established and supported that fact, I noted problems with the notion of 'all Christians are' — the use of a stereotype.   I then generalized to note that using stereotypes is just bad form.   It is lazy thinking and errant.   I noted finally how the use of stereotypes against the irreligious is equally bad.    In short, stereotypical thinking is a poor way to operate.

This is all laid out in my comment.

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.3  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.2    2 months ago

Well Praise God!  The creator of the universe according to the founders,  the author of science and of our human rights, according to the founders, the One who created us in His image and all equal in his his eyes, the latter again according to our American founders.  I’m glad that you have no prejudice against believers who follow a religion named after the Son of God.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.4  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @18.1.3    2 months ago

The creator of the universe is an hypothesis, not a fact.   Likewise, therefore, with your claim of a sentient author of science and human rights.   The religious concept of creating us in His image is simply unsubstantiated belief.

Those are speculation and beliefs HA, not facts.   

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.5  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.4    2 months ago

The founding fathers of our nation this speculated wisely and rationally.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
18.1.6  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @18.1.5    2 months ago
The founding fathers of our nation this speculated wisely and rationally.  

Indeed. They were quite wise and rational to establish a secular nation based on a secular Constitution with a separation of church and state. To do anything else would just have been a repeat of Europe.

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.7  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.4    2 months ago

Oh whatever.  I’m going to make it as a statement of fact and certainty no matter how often you speculate about your beliefs.  

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.8  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @18.1.6    2 months ago

But they still knew that we were created equal in His sight by the Creator, that all of our human rights flowed from Him, not from men in government, that our founding was by divine providence, and they openly said our republic would succeed only if we remained a religious and moral people.  They regularly prayed doing official duties and called for national days of prayer.  They were right to separate so that the state couldn’t tell the church what to do or vice Versa and so no denomination could use government power to enforce doctrine upon another. The blue city mayors and blue state governors are trampling all over separation of church and state in their discriminatory rules against churches and persecution of their members.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.9  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @18.1.7    2 months ago
 I’m going to make it as a statement of fact and certainty no matter how often you speculate about your beliefs.  

Pretend all you wish.   Believing something does not make it a fact.   (Odd that anyone would need that explained.)

 
 
 
Gordy327
18.1.10  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @18.1.8    2 months ago
But they still knew that we were created equal in His sight by the Creator,

Unless one were female, black, poor, ect..

hat all of our human rights flowed from Him, not from men in government, that our founding was by divine providence, and they openly said our republic would succeed only if we remained a religious and moral people.

Mere belief. 

They were right to separate so that the state couldn’t tell the church what to do or vice Versa and so no denomination could use government power to enforce doctrine upon another.

Odd how certain religions or religious types do not seem to understand that.

The blue city mayors and blue state governors are trampling all over separation of church and state in their discriminatory rules against churches and persecution of their members.  

Except they hold churches to the same standards and expectations as everyone else. Churches don't seem to like an even playing field.

I’m going to make it as a statement of fact

Then that's as good as lying!

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.11  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @18.1.10    2 months ago

No, it’s not.  Disagreeing with your opinion is not lying.  

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.12  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @18.1.10    2 months ago

They are holding churches to a totally different standard than ones for comparable secular activities.  It is art of blue politicians bigotry and contempt toward God and believers.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
18.1.13  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @18.1.12    2 months ago
They are holding churches to a totally different standard than ones for comparable secular activities.  

What different standards? Cite them!

It is art of blue politicians bigotry and contempt toward God and believers.  

Sweeping generalization.

Disagreeing with your opinion is not lying.  

Except when you pass off mere belief as fact anyway.

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.14  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @18.1.12    2 months ago
They are holding churches to a totally different standard than ones for comparable secular activities.

Every venue is different.   Be specific.

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.15  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.14    2 months ago

Us Christians noticed.  We are now protesting too .  Protesting in favor of our peaceable assembly rights and against mayors and governors who would play god.  A beautiful 5,000 crowd on a San Diego county beach the other day and similar events in Pasadena, Bakersfield, Fresno, and Redding in California alone.  As long as BLM is sanctioned to do their thing we will encourage those believers who do desire to meet to do ours as well sanctioned or not.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
18.1.16  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @18.1.15    2 months ago

So Christians are being part of the problem now, instead of the solution! Got it.

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.17  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @18.1.15    2 months ago
As long as BLM is sanctioned to do their thing we will encourage those believers who do desire to meet to do ours as well sanctioned or not.  

Do you consider it responsible for a group to assemble in a building without the precautions of social distancing, masks, timely disinfection, etc.?

This kind of an attitude explains why the USA continues to deal with outbreaks.

 
 
 
CB
18.1.18  CB   replied to  MAGA @18.1.15    2 months ago

I hope this is not done out of spite. Afterall, Dr. Birx is warning the midwest states and rural communities at-large they are up 'Next.'

BLM is not sanctioned to do anything (without masks and social-distancing) at least, as best one can get with authorities shooting anti-social chemicals at them. It is of necessity. Think of it this way, several guilty as sin police officers are off the force or now dealing with local, state, and federal cases. Because of BLM protests, there are black males alive today that otherwise would be shot down or have the life strangled out of them by sanctioned police officers across the country. These (dastardly types of) officers are on notice that they are being watched and countered.

MAGA careful what you wish for! That green grass on the other side? Don't let it fool ya! It's not always good for us!  Also, covetousness and pride both are sins.

 
 
 
Krishna
18.1.19  Krishna  replied to  TᵢG @18.1    2 months ago
To me, thinking in terms of stereotypes is lazy and highly error prone.  

I have noticed that as well.

In fact, IMO one of the worst things about most social media sites is due to that sort of stupidity (thinking in stereotypes).

 
 
 
Krishna
18.1.21  Krishna  replied to  MAGA @18.1.15    2 months ago
 As long as BLM is sanctioned to do their thing we will encourage those believers who do desire to meet to do ours as well sanctioned or not.  

So now you are following the lead of BLM?

Good Grief MAGA...!!!

(Colour me shocked!!!)

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.22  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.17    2 months ago

Who said anything about inside a building?  I was referring to outdoor activities.  

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.23  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Krishna @18.1.21    2 months ago

We are not following their lead at all.  It’s all about government.  If government sanctions BLM outdoor gatherings then we are going to meet outdoors too as long as these blue city mayors and blue state governors approve antifa and BLM doing so.  It’s a matter of fairness and if their cause is more important than the disease than so is ours.  We conservatives in church, schools, business are going to gather and openly defy their gathering mandates until they limit BLM the way they want to limit churches.  It’s open rebellion time in blue governed areas.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.24  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @18.1.22    2 months ago

Do you consider it responsible for a group to assemble in the open without the precautions of social distancing, masks, timely disinfection, etc.?

 
 
 
CB
18.1.25  CB   replied to  MAGA @18.1.23    2 months ago

Well howdy! Conservatives churches are going to protest on civil grounds. Square that with the scriptural admonition: Romans 13:1  "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

Apparently God does not mean this for your own good! You feel you are being wronged somehow. Nevermind the fact that liberal Christians are wholly restricted from congregating indoors and in large groups for health reasons too!

Remember the Old Testament narrative (2 Samuel 24:15) about Leader David's census taking sin for which the Angel of Death was send to plague and destroy a portion of, wait for it, the Children of God (Tribe of Dan)!

Moral of the story: Do not think you can get out ahead and beyond God.

God has given you sufficiency in technology to fellowship and abide in each other for the duration of this 'plague' passing through the Land-at-large. I recommend conservative churches heed healthy safe policies, before sickness and death break out among the 'stiff-necked' people of God who refuse to register caution and delay as appropriate means to life and hearth!

 
 
 
MAGA
 
 
Gordy327
18.1.27  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @18.1.26    2 months ago

I see you're trying to dodge with your usual BS!

 
 
 
Freewill
18.1.28  Freewill  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.24    2 months ago
Do you consider it responsible for a group to assemble in the open without the precautions of social distancing, masks, timely disinfection, etc.?

[raising hand and jumping up and down]  ooh...ohh...ohh ...can I answer this one?

No!  Not in the middle of a pandemic when in close or uncontrolled proximity, especially while screaming and yelling continuously which can project droplets and vapors out in greater quantity and further from the body than intermittent sneezing or coughing does , even through a mask or handkerchief.  Even if outdoors and people are back to back and shoulder to shoulder, some with and many without masks (especially while projecting said voices), fiddling with the masks with little chance for regular hand-washing, the odds for transmission have to be far greater than when distancing, masking and disinfecting recommendations are followed as they might be say in an intelligent re-opening of businesses.  Indoors or outdoors, science is science and the reason for the gathering has no bearing on the science IMHO.

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.29  TᵢG  replied to  Freewill @18.1.28    2 months ago

goldstar.jpg

Seems like an obvious question to answer.   Funny how partisanship seems to nullify critical thinking and, it would seem, even commonsense.

 
 
 
Freewill
18.1.30  Freewill  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.29    2 months ago
Seems like an obvious question to answer.   Funny how partisanship seems to nullify critical thinking and, it would seem, even commonsense.

Indeed.  Some other interesting critical thinking here.  Look at the chart of confirmed cases in Portland Oregon HERE, either by symptom onset date or by case report date.

Now consider when the first stage of reopening in Portland, Multnomah County, Oregon began:

PORTLAND, Ore. — The wait is over for those in Multnomah County waiting to start reopening. On Wednesday afternoon, Oregon Gov. Kate Brown announced the county could enter Phase 1 of the state’s reopening plan on Friday, June 19 .

Covid cases began a rapid uptick shortly after the "mostly peaceful protests" started in late May and continued in earnest through most of July.   So what do you suppose correlates more closely with the data, the protests or the re-opening?  Not to mention that at least the re-opening would likely be more tightly controlled in terms of distancing, masking and disinfecting in most cases.  And at least in the downtown Portland area the business re-opening was likely slowed or stopped due to the destructive nature of many of the 60+ days/nights of protesting. 

I don't understand why the media and others won't at least look at the facts and tell the truth on this, rather than going out of their way to make up stories that don't fit the data.

 
 
 
Freewill
18.1.31  Freewill  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.17    2 months ago
Do you consider it responsible for a group to assemble in a building without the precautions of social distancing, masks, timely disinfection, etc.?

Nope.

This kind of an attitude explains why the USA continues to deal with outbreaks.

Yep.

 
 
 
MAGA
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.33  TᵢG  replied to  Freewill @18.1.30    2 months ago
I don't understand why the media and others won't at least look at the facts and tell the truth on this, rather than going out of their way to make up stories that don't fit the data.

Everything, clearly, is fodder for partisan spin.   Not even issues as critical as AGW and a worldwide pandemic are strong enough to remove partisan blinders.

 
 
 
Gordy327
18.1.34  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @18.1.32    2 months ago

If you have a point to make, just say it. I don't bother with Instagram nonsense. Especially since they're off topic or irrelevant more often than not.

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.35  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @18.1.34    2 months ago

Those meme’s and the accompanying words make my points well enough.  Only commie leaning authoritarians would ban people from assembling to worship while allowing them to assemble to burn symbols of worship.  

 
 
 
Freewill
18.1.36  Freewill  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.33    2 months ago
Everything, clearly, is fodder for partisan spin.   Not even issues as critical as AGW and a worldwide pandemic are strong enough to remove partisan blinders.

The problem is that the spin either way is fucking killing people.  Those who want to go to a Trump rally indoors without distancing and masks are killing people.  To the extent that Trump encourages that sort of thing, he is killing people.   People who are protesting indoor or outdoor in very close proximity with or without masks while continuously yelling (and projecting droplets at higher velocities and in much higher concentration) with little opportunity for proper disinfection, are bringing it home and are killing people.  The latter group is also killing local businesses and costing the City and Federal Governments millions of dollars in damages that could have been used to support their community. 

It is madness.  People have lost their fucking minds.  All of this could easily be worked out and suitable compromises could be made to satisfy everyone's concerns if we all work together and agree on sensible solutions.  But no, it always has to be my way or the highway with these partisan extremists.  Fudge the data, ignore the science, no compromise, defund anything they don't like, and then in some cases find an "expert" or two and a complicit media to spin the data or facts to fit ones partisan narrative.  This type of thinking will eventually kill far more of us than Covid-19 ever will.

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.37  TᵢG  replied to  Freewill @18.1.36    2 months ago

No disagreement from me, Freewill.   Too many people just do not use their brains.   It is much easier to lazily follow the herd which, in turn, follows the authority whose proclamations (no supporting evidence, verification, etc. required) alone are taken as truth.

 
 
 
Gordy327
18.1.38  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @18.1.35    2 months ago

Anyone can come up with a mrme, which makes them meaningless and appealing to the lowest common intellectual denominator!

 
 
 
CB
18.1.39  CB   replied to  Freewill @18.1.36    2 months ago

Friend Freewill. I share in your inconsolable distress. But you need to ask yourself this: Which came first? The murders of black boys and men by Authorities caught digitally in stark relief? Or numerous peaceful protests which broke down into other means of communication once their requests/demands were ignored?

Which can go unanswered? The murderous deaths have only recently fallen silent because of varying types of people out in the streets, which had the effect of getting a 'handful' on Authorities off their respective forces. And, their being heavily scrutinized as perpetrators instead of victims of any work-related violence.

Degrees matter too.

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.40  seeder  MAGA  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.37    2 months ago

It would be best if everyone used the same precautions and the same rules applied to everyone equally.  That’s not happening.  It’s not ok for rules to apply differently for different groups of people.  

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.41  seeder  MAGA  replied to  Gordy327 @18.1.38    2 months ago

But you only complain when the meme’s  are used by conservatives to make a point.  I have yet to see you make the same issue of liberal members using meme’s to make a point.  

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.42  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @18.1.39    2 months ago

We back the blue and are having back the blue rallies, events, and fund raisers in red states and smaller cities, towns, and rural areas across the country.  The movement in these places is to defend not defund the police and to increase spending on them.  Also, many local African American groups in the cities like NYC and Chicago are asking for a return of police to their neighborhoods to get rapidly rising crime there under control.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
18.1.43  Gordy327  replied to  MAGA @18.1.41    one month ago

Memes are used when there is no point or one is too intellectually lazy to put any thought into making any logical point. Outside of comic relief, I have no use for nor interest in memes. And from what I've seen, you're the only one here who actually uses memes with regularity in an attempt to make a serious point. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
18.1.44  TᵢG  replied to  MAGA @18.1.40    one month ago
It’s not ok for rules to apply differently for different groups of people.  

I agree that the rules are not a function of the people but rather a function of the venue, the activity and the number of people.

But I disagree with the whining of persecution that is not based on an intellectual evaluation of the differences in venue, activity and count but rather on partisan, ideological or religious grounds.

To be crystal clear:  a church service indoors is fundamentally different from a protest outdoors.   The criteria for safety must be evaluated for each venue, activity and count and they will not be the same.   Indoor church services inherently have people congregated together singing, praying and reciting which pushes the social distancing precautions even further than breathing and normal talking.   Same with a bar (especially with a band and dancing).   Outdoor activities have ultraviolet cleansing from the sun, have a much greater area to ventilate and thus dilute exhaled breath, and are capable of social distancing well beyond 6 feet to accommodate their yelling.

Compare the apples to the apples and the oranges to the oranges.

 
 
 
CB
18.1.45  CB   replied to  MAGA @18.1.42    one month ago

You can back whomsoever group you wish. This is not a competition, and I think it is the height of ignorance to turn it into one. Sure people can shove money back and for down the front of the drawers of any organization and yet, that organization can be as wrong as wearing two shoes on the wrong feet!

If you can blindly back blue rallies and give police 'clubs' money for killing what you perceive as your "naked" enemies. Shame on you. Demand better for your funding. Demand the God-ordained right for people to make it to jail; to court; to a Judge and/or Jury.

Black people are not going to take this lying around anymore. The police departments will comply with policing black Americans and respecting the groups unalienable rights (which you SAY you are devoted to) or it will and should be scrutinized for defunding (reductions) for cause.

 
 
 
Freewill
18.1.46  Freewill  replied to  CB @18.1.39    one month ago
But you need to ask yourself this: Which came first? The murders of black boys and men by Authorities caught digitally in stark relief? Or numerous peaceful protests which broke down into other means of communication once their requests/demands were ignored ?

CB, while I understand that cause and that we definitely need to address that situation, my answer is that it is irrelevant to the discussion of exposure to Covid-19 and the deaths that result when it spreads.  There is little separation between protesters peaceful or otherwise, but especially at night and especially when huddled closely together shouting and throwing projectiles and constantly adjusting masks in the process.  Watch the months of live and recorded videos if you feel I'm making this up or exaggerating.  The timing of such protests in Portland do align with the rapid increase in Covid cases and they are the only thing that changed from prior to the end of May when the cases were dropping. Reopening in that city, to the extent not blocked by the protesting, didn't begin until June 19.

With respect to your assertion that peaceful protests broke down into destructive and violent demonstrations because " their requests/demands were ignored " I have two questions/comments:

1.   Who says they were being ignored?  Either in Portland or elsewhere?   Some cities like Minneapolis have already started the "de-funding" process in early June , and some with unintended results.  Another good opinion piece about that by a black officer HERE .

2.   Who says the protester's (especially the violent ones) demands are reasonable in many cases?  Some have actually called for complete de-funding or closure of police departments, while they in fact attack and attempt to injure or kill police officers who had nothing to do with the deaths of George Floyd or others.  Some even threatened their families while making their demands.  Just because protesters make outrageous claims followed by unreasonable demands does not mean they are being ignored, it just means that rational and reasonable negotiations need to be had.  And that can't happen if buildings are being attacked and burned down and protesters are coordinating to coax officers into the open so that they can attack them too as they try to do their jobs. 

Degrees matter too.

Not when it comes to this pandemic.  Sadly it does not care about the cause.  It will use any opportunity to spread rapidly and any gatherings of this nature or any other nature where the best scientific recommendations can't or won't be employed is right in its wheelhouse.  The killing of black people by police officers is most definitely a tragedy and needs to be prosecuted and otherwise resolved in a swift yet rational manner.  But killing other innocent people by being part of something that helps rapidly spread this disease to family, friends and other innocent people cannot possibly help to solve the police problem.

 
 
 
CB
18.1.47  CB   replied to  Freewill @18.1.46    one month ago

I understand and majorly agree. Protest, freedom to assemble, is in the constitution for a reason. It is the mechanism for the Unheard assembled together.

Without stirring around in the pandemic per se, because I agree with you on that point, these protest stirrings could not be happening at a worse period for this nation! Why do police departments across the country (the Authorities; the agents of our civic leaders) get to initiate murder tactics on black people during a pandemic? Why were they told and explained to go out and deescalate interactions with civilians as much as possible during this pandemic. What about the fears, anxiousness, and confusion the public was and is already stressed beyond measure with? Why O why must there be an added weight of black boys and men 'memorialized' on officer body cams and viral cellphone videos to deal with?

These are important people question.

Authorities, tend to look at systematic problems in the aggregate. The public scrutinizes each death in term. Nevertheless, the 'floodgate' is kept up until the outrage can not be contained inside any longer. (Why don't the Authorities understand these 'authorized' killings on the streets of our country have 'topping off' dates?)

Peaceful protests, by which I gather you mean, neutral protestations, are always desirable. But let's not kid ourselves-protests where people are cordoned off usually incur civil disobedience naturally.  Because of the roadblocks to full expression. Gradually, this increases the chance of heightened tensions, and the underlying sparks of riots. Arson is the worse of the 'tradition.' Nobody in his or her right mind should enjoy arson.

Also, do not forget that peaceful protestors are not by definition the strand igniting violence riots and fires. There is an 'other' element that seeps into the mechanism of protests with intentions by other means. Agent provocateurs and opportunists take every advantage of any situation of people en-mass out on the streets.

Let he hastily move on. I read the linked article and this stuck out to me (among others in the opinion piece):

Amid this progress, there are growing calls to “defund police.” While de-funding is intended to force changes in police practices and redirect funds to community development, there is also an underlying element of retribution. The American public wants overdue adjudication for all the people killed, injured, abused and insulted by police, and seizing funding from departments has a certain appeal when we are as angry as we are today.

I don't know that the American Public is bothered enough to go out in protests over insults. Deaths and gun wounds are a different matter, however.  This so-called de-funding police as "retribution" did not become a 'thing' until all other ideas had exhausted themselves.

Moreover, de-funding select police departments is not the same as dissolving police departments!

Retribution is something people may demand for an unjustifiable wrong or wrongs done. During this pandemic, can we as people simply ask that police show greater and sufficiently accurate restrain in their patrolling and arresting of otherwise innocent black men and boys? These interactions between Officers and civilian blacks may not need to escalate to arrest and subsequent "street justice.' Someone needs to be the bigger 'person' in the situations. Now then, I say that falls on the men and women with the guns strapped on and who are under charge by the cities and states.

 
 
 
MAGA
18.1.48  seeder  MAGA  replied to  CB @18.1.47    one month ago

“During my time as Governor, I have attended the funerals of far too many law enforcement officers who were killed in the line of duty, Kemp said in a statement. "It’s absolutely heartbreaking, and we must act.

He called the legislation "a step forward as we work to protect those who are risking their lives to protect us. While some vilify, target and attack our men and women in uniform for personal or political gain, this legislation is a clear reminder that Georgia is a state that unapologetically backs the blue.”

Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp speaks during a coronavirus briefing at the Capitol, in Atlanta. On Wednesday, Kemp signed into law a measure to give police officers and other first responders added protrctions. (AP Photo/John Bazemore, File)

The measure was added to a hate-crime bill that gained traction after the fatal shooting of Ahmaud Arbery , a Black man who was killed in Glynn County in what prosecutors called a racist attack in February.......

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/georgia-governor-law-protect-police.amp

This is good news!