╌>

Wall Street Journal: Economic Lockdown Is the 'Catastrophe'

  
Via:  XXJefferson51  •  4 years ago  •  333 comments

By:   Eric Mack

Wall Street Journal: Economic Lockdown Is the 'Catastrophe'
"Well, after Friday's horrific jobs report, how do you like the shutdown now?" the Journal wrote. "The people who said we have to sacrifice the economy to crush the virus have succeeded in the former even as the virus will be with us for many more months or longer."

Leave a comment to auto-join group We the People

We the People

The Wall St. Journal is right.  We need to get the economy revived now!  If we wait too long it may never fully recover.  It’s all about policy now.  Deregulation, tax cutting, infrastructure, and reviving energy, agriculture, tourism.  The fact is at this point that keeping the economy closed down will cause far more economic damage than the virus can cause at this point.  


S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Those saying we had to sacrifice the economy to save lives have succeeded in only the former,  The Wall Street Journal writes  in a scathing rebuke of lockdowns at all costs amid the global coronavirus pandemic.

"The tradeoff isn't between lives and livelihoods,"  the Journal  editorial board concluded. "The policy goal has to be to protect both as much as possible.

"Deploy more personal protective equipment, greatly increase testing, build surge capability to handle flare-ups, and isolate society's most vulnerable to keep hospitals from getting overwhelmed.

"But for heaven's sake reopen the economy so we don't consign millions to years of poverty."

The op-ed was in response to those denouncing a past call back on March 19, " Rethinking the Coronavirus Shutdown ," when the shutdowns were only beginning.

"Well, after Friday's horrific jobs report, how do you like the shutdown now?" the Journal wrote. "The people who said we have to sacrifice the economy to crush the virus have succeeded in the former even as the virus will be with us for many more months or longer."

April's unemployment rate showed 14.7% of Americans out of work, the highest rate in record U.S. history, until 6.4 million workers were added to the unemployment line.

"Much of the media continue to treat the economic destruction as a sideshow and present a false choice between saving lives and jobs," the board wrote. "But this is the fastest jobs collapse in modern history. The Great Depression drove millions of Americans into poverty and caused many suicides, and there's a substantial risk this could happen again."

And, most notably, even hospitals are cutting essential frontline workers, as elective surgeries have put healthcare facilities on life support.

"Congress has appropriated $175 billion to shore up hospitals, but this won't help small physician practices much," the board wrote. "Many healthcare providers warn they may not survive if their privately insured patients lose jobs and sign up for Medicaid, which doesn't cover their costs."

The board even rebuked Democrats' plan to keep paying Americans' unemployment indefinitely, until a vaccine that may or may not come.

"The crowd that demands the economy remain locked-down until there's a vaccine, miracle therapy or daily testing of everyone in the country seem to think the government can replace the private economy," the board wrote. "That's a fantasy, and they are betraying the very low- and middle-income workers they claim to represent. Average wages in April rose sharply because so many low-income workers were laid off."

The Journal went as far as sharing President Donald Trump's mantra, "Americans need to work to make a living, and they want to work," even amid the desire to "blame President Trump for the economic pain."

"It is important to stress that the strict lockdowns were a government policy choice," the board wrote. "But the damage is done, and our focus isn't on recriminations. The issue is what to do now, and the public is wise enough to know that public health can't be sustained without a healthy economy.

"Americans can see the destruction all around them. They know the virus will be with us for a long time unless there's a vaccine, so we have to learn to live with it and have a functioning economy."


Tags

jrGroupDiscuss - desc
[]
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1  seeder  XXJefferson51    4 years ago

"Much of the media continue to treat the economic destruction as a sideshow and present a false choice between saving lives and jobs," the board wrote. "But this is the fastest jobs collapse in modern history. The Great Depression drove millions of Americans into poverty and caused many suicides, and there's a substantial risk this could happen again."

And, most notably, even hospitals are cutting essential frontline workers, as elective surgeries have put healthcare facilities on life support.

"Congress has appropriated $175 billion to shore up hospitals, but this won't help small physician practices much," the board wrote. "Many healthcare providers warn they may not survive if their privately insured patients lose jobs and sign up for Medicaid, which doesn't cover their costs."

The board even rebuked Democrats' plan to keep paying Americans' unemployment indefinitely, until a vaccine that may or may not come.

"The crowd that demands the economy remain locked-down until there's a vaccine, miracle therapy or daily testing of everyone in the country seem to think the government can replace the private economy," the board wrote. "That's a fantasy, and they are betraying the very low- and middle-income workers they claim to represent. Average wages in April rose sharply because so many low-income workers were laid off."

The Journal went as far as sharing President Donald Trump's mantra, "Americans need to work to make a living, and they want to work," even amid the desire to "blame President Trump for the economic pain."

"It is important to stress that the strict lockdowns were a government policy choice," the board wrote. "But the damage is done, and our focus isn't on recriminations. The issue is what to do now, and the public is wise enough to know that public health can't be sustained without a healthy economy.  

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
2  The Magic 8 Ball    4 years ago

the left wanted to destroy our economy and blame trump

epic failure

if blue states want to stay blue? they had better get it in gear

cheers  :)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @2    4 years ago

Funny you could concern yourself with blue state's political well-being. As it seems your "John Wayne" president in the White House is so distraught and paranoid that the virus is in the White House, he wants testing there done daily. Then, laughably, he states that testing can't work if you can not have the virus one day, but get it the next day—he still orders the testings! For himself and everybody who comes near him!

Trump new shtick is calling everybody in the fight against the virus, "warriors." Warriors. He won't properly outfit the warriors. He won't mandate their proper equipment. He won't order or fund strategic testing of communities throughout the country. He won't help bury the dead.

Trump even shut down the CDC Daily Briefings when it was made clear to him that the media did not intend to kiss his big fat 'fanny' just for something to do in Washington, D.C.

Trump is a coward. He wants other people to work with insufficient virus protection outer and inner wear; he won't supply N95 or see that a greater degree of masking is brought into being; He don't want the nation to know where the virus is patterning itself to travel into a community next; he has no space in his empty head to give a damn about the newly infested, sick, dying, and freezer dead from this virus.

Trump is a coward who wants everybody to forget themselves and go back to work, while he stays crumbled and folded up in his safe-zone indulging in coronavirus testing for himself, his wife, and son. What a coward! Hiding in the folds of the nurses' skirts and pants.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1    4 years ago

Democratic governors of states like New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Illinois are creating an "untenable situation" by being slow to lift lockdowns instituted to counter coronavirus.

"We don’t think more people will die because of the lockdown versus exposure to the virus," Hanson said, mimicking the thought process of some Democratic governors, "We have to be absolutely certain that nobody gets the virus and dies."

As a result, he said, residents of those states are prevented from paying into the system with tax money, which is needed to fund entitlement programs.  "We have soaring welfare costs and we have soaring entitlement costs because people are locked in at home, Hanson said. "But we want other people to go out in the red states, and we want to criticize you for being reckless, but your people are going to have to provide the labor and the services and the capital to create wealth and give it to the federal government, so it can turn it around and give it to us and bail us out while we sit at home and suggest that we are your moral superiors.

"That is an untenable situation."

Hanson said the entire dynamic is "incoherent" because people cannot "stay at home" and yet demand the government print money to "run entitlements while we are not working."

"[T]hat money has got to come from somewhere," he said, "and it’s going to come from the places that are actually risking and going out and working and providing it." 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.2  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.1    4 years ago

Tell Hanson to just shut up. He sounds unremarkable and stupid. Let the seriously sincere people fix these crises. Chumps are not welcome with their negativity.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
2.1.3  Thomas  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.1    4 years ago
Democratic governors of states like New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Illinois are creating an "untenable situation" by being slow to lift lockdowns instituted to counter    coronavirus  .

March your ass right over to New York City and take a walk downtown. Kiss a couple people on the way if you feel that coronavirus is contained and they are ready to open. You sit out in your little fuckin house in nowhere California and take potshots at people who actually have to deal with the real shit. You have swallowed all of the poisonous tripe of the hyper capitalist " I need all the money I can get no matter who or what I have to destroy because it is all about ME ME ME ME" 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.4  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.2    4 years ago

Hanson is right on and as a rural California farmer and Stanford university fellow he’s anything but stupid.  He’s got it right about how blue areas are going to demand money from red areas to pay for their welfare because we are working and they are not.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.5  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.2    4 years ago

He and we on his side are not the negative ones here.  That describes the pro lockdown side.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.6  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Thomas @2.1.3    4 years ago

I never once said that any one urban center afflicted by the virus should throw precautions to the wind.  I simply say that they should not hold the rest of us hostage and lock us all up until their specific situation is resolved.  Nor should they try to guilt trip the rest of us nor do badly hit into sharing their pain with them.  

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Participates
2.1.7  katrix  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.6    4 years ago

Heaven help you if you had to actually share anyone else's pain. And you call yourself a Christian. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.8  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.5    4 years ago

There is no "pro-lockdown" side. There is only us. Trump conservatives desire combat and for it you require an enemy to demonize.

Satan, the Lord rebukes you!

This nation is undivided working together in all matters and extremes.

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Participates
2.1.9  katrix  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.6    4 years ago

Asking you to wear a mask so you don't infect others in case you're asymptomatic is such a hardship for someone who claims to value life.

Jesus is shaking his head at you. This is not what he taught you. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.10  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.6    4 years ago

You have exposed the shame of fundamentalism: It's lack of compassion and understanding.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.11  CB  replied to  katrix @2.1.9    4 years ago

Asymptomatics! The other 'shoe' no one is writing about. Thank you for bringing it in!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.12  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  katrix @2.1.7    4 years ago

We’ve all been sharing pain since mid March.  It’s time for the urban control freaks and their blue mayors and governors to let us go.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.13  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.8    4 years ago

If we weren’t divided them those who wanted to stay in lockdown would and those who want to reopen the economy would all do as we see fit. The division comes from those who don’t want to reopen yet attempting to control those who do and to use the power of government to lock us up if we don’t bend over to their will.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.14  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.10    4 years ago

This is not a religious issue.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.15  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.12    4 years ago

Okay. This is waaay too much to accept without 'taking the top off!'

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.16  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.13    4 years ago

Well, you could run for office and put some teeth where you are trying to make your bite! Toothless resounding.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.17  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.14    4 years ago

Okay, there are no rights and wrongs then. Your moralizing is hereby wasted on us. Catch as catch can. Live for today for tomorrow we might die! Our conduct is as necessary and equally valid as yours—no matter the consequences. But you don't really want or intend to let anybody (else) live like they have only today: Do you? 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.18  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.2    4 years ago

Why be so condescending toward all who presume to dare to disagree with you?  Why be so adamant about stalling out the economy and forcing so many tens of millions to suffer?  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.19  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.8    4 years ago

your side has been demonizing us since we started the reopen America protests in Michigan showing their governor to be a fascist dictator witch and mocked the ice cream princess for holding working class employees and small businesses hostage for federal pork for her rich friends. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.20  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.17    4 years ago

Im not the one trying to control the actions of others in their areas nor am I the one resorting to guilt to try to get my opponents to change their minds.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.21  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.18    4 years ago

Let's cut the BS routine. We can all tell the truth to the best of our abilities (and shame the Devil), or we can all pull a P. T. Barnum's "There is a sucker born every minute." With expectations of having our own cache of fools and believers. 

President Donald Trump shut down the Coronavirus Task Force presentations because he was personally offended his 'talks' to the public were not taking. Indeed, those "presentations" illustrated his narcissistic personality disorder in full relief! Now Trump is starting and starring in a new "production."

'Trump & Making the Economy Great Again.' Or, some such imagining. Without missing a beat, Trump conservatives flip the script and are all in on the unfeeling movement to ignore the germ permeating the land-while you talk up returning to work blind, a little less cognizant, and disrespectful of the sick, dead, and dying—they may as well be 'fodder' in the Trump theater of all smiles from the big guy all the time.

Bullshit. I call Bullshit! Trump conservatives jumping to the forefront trying to capitalize on the pains of families and achievements in medical research by creating a new alternative 'state of affairs' is utter bullshit. You will not be respected. In fact, you will be treated with rank dishonor!

This nation does need to get back to work. Yes it does and it will. However, the virus must be treated with a type of respect until it can be eradicated and stamped down and out. We can do both things: Respect the work and workers and eradicate the virus, respectively.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.22  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.19    4 years ago

A rant?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.23  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.20    4 years ago

Now you are just throwing out words. If you have no moral compass; be advised to stop moralizing. Expect nothing of anybody at all. Fight just for the sake of fighting.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.24  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.22    4 years ago

The pure and simple truth 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.25  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.23    4 years ago

that is the definition of the urban left.  No moral compass and fight us because they want to control us.  It’s not that they say we will live and do it our way while you all are free to live and try it your way.  It’s all about control and guilt for them.  We have to subject ourselves to their vision of doing things our they will fight us every step of the way and resort to guilt and raw power if they can to coerce us into doing it their way.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.26  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.24    4 years ago

A rant.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.27  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.25    4 years ago

Pretend you're not projecting, right now. Then try compromise. It can change your perspective and your worldview. We should want what is best for everybody as often as we can. It is the sure way to advance the country ahead, and not just keep spinning pass each other.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.28  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.27    4 years ago

The compromise is that areas that want to stay on lock down continue to do so and the areas that want to re open and restart the economy be able to do so.  I have no problem with that. The issue is not us trying to force people to re open.  The issue is blue state governors forcing their less affected areas to abide by whatever the conditions are in their most affected areas.  We will rebel against that.  Let our people go! Back to work.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.29  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.28    4 years ago
The issue is blue state governors forcing their less affected areas to abide by whatever the conditions are in their most affected areas.  We will rebel against that.  Let our people go! Back to work.

Cut the crap. If you're in a blue state, your "our" people are under the care of a democratic governor-and you can't keep DEMANDING to split your 'share' of the baby from the whole baby. Because when/if baby gets ill it will be a democratic governor's problem without a doubt. Is that what you meant?

I have little patience with engaging in doubletalk.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.30  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.29    4 years ago

Then we will appeal to the federal government and the AG in court and to the executive power to release areas county by county rather than state by state.  We in rural California will not be held hostage to being released when SF and LA are good and ready to.  It’s not like the urban areas don’t have problems of their own and we already know that they can’t really police us if we defy.  Sending people from other parts of the state to police us to coerce us to stay shut down only risks really spreading the virus around.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.31  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.30    4 years ago

Glad to see you have a thought out plan to follow. Good luck with that. BTW, have you heard of domestic emergencies and California National Guard? Just saying. You went there-leaving me no choice.

This will be moot anyway. The State of California is coming out of lock-down. Of course, you have your tea-pot brew of 'troubles' to keep stirring.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.32  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.31    4 years ago

You think the President would allow the a state to call out the guard to restrict the rights of of its citizens?  He would likely nationalize them to prevent that from happening.  Plus it would be risking transporting the virus from parts of the state it’s heavy to parts where it barely exists.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.33  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.1.32    4 years ago

Try it then. This is all about politics anyway for the Right. Y'all push everything while crying victim-hood. Try it, then.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.1.34  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @2.1.33    4 years ago

No need to.  We’ve certified to move to stage 3 from 2 as of yesterday.  Our county has decided to push the envelope within the system rather than outright resist it.  Besides even if he closed the local or state parks around here of which there are many there are plenty of federal forest and a national park we can escape to.  We aren’t the ones trying to force areas wanting to extend their lockdowns to open up against their will.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.2  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @2    4 years ago

They are about to drive Tesla out of California to Texas over the re opening issue.  

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
2.2.1  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2.2    4 years ago

blue states reaction to this virus is going to bite them in the ass economically and politically for yrs to come.

tesla leaving is just the "noticeable" business bailing out of a blue state.   countless others will leave unnoticed.

besides the virus related stuff, no state income tax is a no brainer.... LOL

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.2.2  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @2.2.1    4 years ago

People in the urban coastal areas of my state it seems will never learn.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2.2.3  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @2.2.1    4 years ago

Tesla re opened their plant and is ignoring the county person who ordered them to re close.  Local police and county sheriff so far not enforcing the shutdown order.  If closed it would be the only auto factory in America that would be closed.  All the foreign named American car factories are now re opened.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3  CB    4 years ago

The moral of the story is this: People who live in glass houses should not litter the area around their walk with rocks, stones, and boulders. This virus could not give a damn about the White House, Donald Trump, conservatism, liberalism, grannies, grandpas, or arm babies. It simply demonstrates that somebody-somewhere will deal with it directly one day-one way or another.

So yes, let's get back to work fixing problems together and not dividing people into parcels of flesh to be demonized and cast down. Until then, God is likely serving up some swift justice to a president and his white house by rendering him null and void. I don't know. It could be just as a I wrote.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
4  Thomas    4 years ago

From the article:

"Well, after Friday's horrific jobs report, how do you like the shutdown now?" the Journal wrote. "The people who said we have to sacrifice the economy to crush the virus have succeeded in the former even as the virus will be with us for many more months or longer."

This comment displays ignorance on the part of the writer. The shutdown was to keep the hospitals and healthcare systems from being overloaded. When you flatten a curve, assuming the relevant actors, the volume under the curve, remain the same, you necessarily lengthen its duration.  Now that we have passed the initial onslaught, we do have a long slog ahead of us. Bitching about it won't make it better.

"Deploy more personal protective equipment, greatly increase testing, build surge capability to handle flare-ups, and isolate society's most vulnerable to keep hospitals from getting overwhelmed.

That is what governments et.al. have been trying to do for two months. The initial lack of testing bit us in the ass and we had to work blind. That is why everything had to shut down. The country is reopening. 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.1  JBB  replied to  Thomas @4    4 years ago

This is a crank at NewsMax's take on a WSJ article.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.1.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  JBB @4.1    4 years ago

It’s a NewsMax news article about the WSJ opinion that is so right on.  Isn’t it awesome that viewpoints opposite of yours get to be expressed freely in this exceptional nation?

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.2  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  Thomas @4    4 years ago
The shutdown was to keep the hospitals and healthcare systems from being overloaded

. that argument looks good on paper, but in the real world?   complete bs.

 every hospital in my city was nearly vacant with medical people getting laid off.  

in corpus christi, tx

population 325,733 as of 2016

129 confirmed cases of which 39 were hospitalized in  5 huge hospitals.

 3 deaths

7 people currently in hospital with 3 of those in ICU

is that overloaded?  not even a chance.

we are not going to suicide our economies because a few people might die.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.1  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2    4 years ago

Corpus Christi, Texas is part of a 'universal' response to a world-wide pandemic. You can't run your happy — out and talk about how small and good things are faring now without recognizing the hard work of sending people home to take stock of their lives and the situation- the collective (as a whole) was set to face.

Social distancing worked to slow the spread in as many states and territories that participated in the step. You can not prove quantities of 'survivors' by what did not happen.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
4.2.2  Thomas  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2    4 years ago

No, it is not complete bs. In the beginning of this, we did not know how far the virus had spread because we had absolutely no testing. As a result, we could not track it, we could not isolate the people who had it, we could not trace the contacts of the people who had it.  So we shut everything down except those services which were deemed (for whatever reason) to be necessary.

If we weren't such boors, so rigidly bound by the concept of capitalism, so unimaginative in our responses, we would not be thinking that by suspending commerce in the face of a pandemic we were killing the economy. That is for people who have swalloed the belief that for every action that they do, they must be compesated in some way. That is the true bs.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.2.3  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @4.2.1    4 years ago
You can not prove quantities of 'survivors' by what did not happen.

sure social distancing helped... it would against any virus.

keeping seniors at home was also a good idea

but you can't prove closing our business' helped either.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.4  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2.3    4 years ago

Businesses are now re-opening with social distancing as one in a series of requirements which was not the case. It was not done before, it will be done after. There is evidence of itself "working," "on the job," and "hired."

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.5  Kavika   replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2.3    4 years ago

Seems that there has been a huge change in Sweden since the Ambassador made that comment. 

SWEDEN'S CORONAVIRUS DEATH TOLL 'HORRIFYING' SAYS SCIENTIST BEHIND COUNTRY'S ANTI-LOCKDOWN STRATEGY

Oh, their death toll per million is much higher then the US and the GDP is projected to be worse than the countries surrounding them. 

Their death rate is 12.34%

Cheers.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.2.6  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @4.2.4    4 years ago
Businesses are now re-opening with social distancing

yes they are... we have no problem with that.

keeping people's business closed any longer or until we find some cure?   stupid

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
4.2.7  Thomas  replied to  Kavika @4.2.5    4 years ago

That is horrible. Just horrible. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.8  TᵢG  replied to  Kavika @4.2.5    4 years ago

This is a nasty, mutating, contagious virus with no known cure.   I must wonder about their sauna activities and the effects that might have on the spread.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.9  Kavika   replied to  TᵢG @4.2.8    4 years ago

I believe that sauna activities could be responsible for some of the increase. 

It seems that they are learning a very hard lesson.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.2.10  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  Kavika @4.2.5    4 years ago
Their death rate is 12.34%

check the math. perhaps that number is associated with people infected?

sweden has 10 million people

if only ten percent of the people died?     that is one million people dead / which is not even near the case.


sweden?  has had 311 deaths per million people,      

the usa? locked down        has had 235 deaths per million people.    

the UK?       also locked down.        deaths per million?    about 470 per million 

5 countries all of which "locked down"  their people have higher death rates per million than sweden

obviously some other factors are at play.

cheers :)

          

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
4.2.11  Thomas  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2.10    4 years ago

Yet you cannot with any surety state that Sweden's death toll would not be lower if they had taken stronger measures.   Your link does not provide that much encouragement, because Sweden has the seventh highest death rate per million out of 140 countries.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.12  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.2.1    4 years ago

Every state and territory took precautions and social distancing 

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.2.13  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  Thomas @4.2.11    4 years ago
Yet you cannot with any surety state that Sweden's death toll would not be lower if they had taken stronger measures.

 

  it can be proven 5 countries which took stronger measures have higher death rates than sweden.

so as I stated above.... other factors must be at play. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.14  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2.6    4 years ago

I am not going to dither with you Magic Eight Ball. Businesses did not social distance before this outbreak because their was no outbreak. However, there will be a "new normal" involving much that I need not detail here. You know it, and it does not need or deserve excess talk about it. Nobody mentioned an extreme of an indefinite national business shutdown. Governors want to govern. And democratic party governors are not now or ever will be beholden to Trump's agenda. Besides Trump takes their good and spit it back in their faces and what democrat is going to abide with that?

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.2.15  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2.13    4 years ago
it can be proven 5 countries which took stronger measures have higher death rates than sweden.

interestingly.....

belgium, which locked down their people and is top of the list at 746 deaths per million.   is also lifting their lockdown.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.2.16  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @4.2.14    4 years ago
I am not going to dither with you

then why do you reply and continue to dither?

move along.

 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.17  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2.16    4 years ago

Done!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.18  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.2.17    4 years ago

🙏😇

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.19  Kavika   replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2.10    4 years ago

The death rate is the number that has died as a percent of those that have contacted the disease.

And that number is 12.4% 

According to your link Sweden has the 6th highest deaths per million rate in the world. 

It's surrounding neighbors who have enacted a lockdown have far less total deaths and deaths per million. Denmark 10281 total deaths 91 deaths per million. Norway 7996 total deaths, 40 deaths per million. Finland 5573 total deaths 48 deaths per million. All considerably lower than Sweden. 

As for the projected GDP which seems to be at the center of this is projected to contract between 6.9 and 9.7%. The argument that their GDP will be better than it's neighbors or Europe doesn't seem to be the case. 

Cheers.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.20  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.2    4 years ago

My county has 180,000 pop with two large hospitals and a small one and we’ve had 32 cases.  Four older people with co morbidities who had been to Sacramento or the Bay Area or had a relative who did and caught it passed away. Two in hospital, none in ICU most fully recovered and a handful on self quarantine.  We have 125 beds in reserve and a civic center to house it if needed. We are not overwhelmed by it.  We have been leading the restart the economy movement in California.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.21  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.2.20    4 years ago

Oh good! We, the good people of California, need to stop in for visits and tours. Are you ready for us?

BTW, just for fhits and giggles. "Riddle" me this:

Why are COVID-19 death projections going up to 140,000 nationally because of states opening up?

Are you aware that once people begin moving around the country, no isolation, your county population will definitely be at risk of "penetration"?

Also, are you aware that due to physical distancing and social isolation and masking (maximum and extreme) the people of this nation 'starved' the coronavirus of its abundance of hosts? 

What is to stop your county from being overwhelmed if you remove those safe guards from around your people?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.22  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.2.21    4 years ago

We are using social distancing and precautions.  We are following the governors guidelines.  Are you questioning the governor for letting 7 rural counties including mine move to the next step on his plan ahead of the rest?  It’s possible that he knew those counties would defy him and join Yuba, Sutter, Modoc counties in fully reopening if he didn’t ease up and knew he really couldn’t enforce Bay Area and LA restrictions everywhere since some lower population coastal counties as well as most of the valley ones were joining the far north in pressing for re opening more quickly than LA or Alameda 

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
4.2.23  pat wilson  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.2.22    4 years ago

So you agree with the governor's actions. Good.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.24  CB  replied to  pat wilson @4.2.23    4 years ago
We are using social distancing and precautions.  We are following the governors guidelines.

No, Re open the economy agrees with Trump's non-federal coronavirus task force guidelines.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.25  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.2.22    4 years ago
We are using social distancing and precautions.

Define "precautions," please. Does it include wearing facial coverings and masks?

We are following the governors guidelines.

Define "guidelines" Does it include testing county people for coronavirus before, during, or after opening up jobs/businesses?

Are you questioning the governor for letting 7 rural counties including mine move to the next step on his plan ahead of the rest?  It’s possible that he knew those counties would defy him and join Yuba, Sutter, Modoc counties in fully reopening if he didn’t ease up and knew he really couldn’t enforce Bay Area and LA restrictions everywhere sinc—

Hold up!

  1. If you SAY the governor 'LET' rural counties move to the next step, please clarify to this discussion how your county is DEFYING Governor Newsom.
  2. If you SAY the governor 'LET' rural counties move to the next step, . . . why are you supposing anything in your @4.2.22?
 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.26  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.2.25    4 years ago

4.4.22 needs no further clarification. It stands as is.  We are in my county re opening most every thing except theaters, gyms, personal care like nails and hair.  Those will hopefully come open by Memorial Day.  Whether our area would have joined the defiance of the governor is a moot point now.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.27  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.2.26    4 years ago

You mean you are acting on "feelings" even though you tout facts (as convenient and expedient). Your county is part of the problem with America. Always intent on being a problem; always looking for the issue to divide on. We're sick of it! We're getting sick and tired of it too. This time many, many, lives are involved and still the "pain in the ass-ism" is ceaseless. If your county falls on its 'sword,' good liberals will pick y'all up (it is the right thing to do) but know this, Trump supporters and the "reddish of republicans" can be royal pains. . . . .

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.28  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.2.27    4 years ago

It’s just so terrible that red states, counties, communities have people living in them who believe what we do.  The sheer horrors of a diversity of beliefs and opinions and expecting to be respected and tolerated in the expression of those differences.  How dare us country hicks and rural rubes have beliefs and values that are different that yours and have the gall to expect you to respect us.  The fact that we disagree with the people of whatever county or region you are from is not what divides us.  What does divide is the progressive left instinct to govern from the top down cramming their goals and objectives down the unwilling throats of us who disagree.  We on the other hand believe in federalism and the same within a state to the counties.  We really don’t care what they believe in the big cities or how they live as long as they are willing to live and let live and let us live our way in our counties and towns.  And for the record we did follow the state rules at the county and city government level and did use science to be prepared and to never have a significant outbreak in our region of the state.  That you don’t like it that we pressured the governor to let our rural region reopen faster and he did is not my concern.  The governor also let counties re open slower than the overall state standard too.  Whenever urban liberals try to control the actions, choices, lives of us rural people rather than let us live as we chose under local boards and councils or local initiative we will rebel, argue, fight back, and defy every single time. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.29  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.2.28    4 years ago

We were starting to agree on some points of 'order.' and then pow! I guess the comments down the line don't synch up well. Sigh. You can understand the liberal 'pain' of dealing with republicans and conservatives who take it upon themselves not to compromise with liberals. It seems we are all tired. This virus pandemic is showing up all just how tired we can be!

Bottom-line, re open the economy. Red states, counties, and communities are going to have an easier time and set of life experiences practicing getting along and living quality lives with liberals than they ever will trying to live with novel  coronaviruses.

You will appreciate the phrase, "There but for the grace of God go I." I am sure, in all its 'infamy.'

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.30  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.2.29    4 years ago

We were starting to agree on another thread until I found your post here.  It rubbed me the wrong way.  We don’t mind reasonable compromise where each side gets something of what it wants in the deal or both sides equally share in the cost or pain of some deals like taxes or budgets.  Your post came across as that your side was going to set the terms of the discussion and we were going to bow down and fall in line or be labeled trouble makers.  You should be happy with the Ca model.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.31  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.2.30    4 years ago

In this I don't have a 'side' because your county getting coronavirus is tantamount to virus being in this state and vice-versa! We're "in it" together like it or lump it. The interstate highway sees to that. Why can't you understand the interconnectivity, and the character of one unified whole?

If your rural community hurts, and cries out, we will all come running from San Diego to San Francisco to your agency; why do you write myopically about self-interest and county self-adoration? It is irrelevant. Like a raging firestorm, this virus can not manifest interested in state or county lines. It will cut any and all of us down where we stand if it can.

I am pleased that you say your area sought compromise with our Governor. That shows coordination and cooperation. Push and Pull is okay—it is how 'muscle' is developed and how movement goes forward.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.32  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.2.31    4 years ago

Reopening California: Santa Clara County the only Bay Area county not entering Phase 2 by next week

SANTA CLARA COUNTY, Calif. (KGO) -- By next week, nearly all Bay Area counties are expected to be in Phase 2 of Gov. Gavin Newsom's plan to reopen California. However, Santa Clara County will remain as the lone holdout as it takes a slower approach.
 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.33  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.2.32    4 years ago

It seems that the precious Bay Area is starting to re open too.  I guess you can lighten up on us rural counties now.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.34  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.2.33    4 years ago

Fire season, cold season, flu season, conoravirus season are coming. The "next" wave of destruction. Wishing y'all well as is my norm.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.2.35  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.2.34    4 years ago

Dem-imposed coronavirus orders face lawsuits across the nation

Ronn Blitzer11 hours ago
image.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

 

Stay-at-home orders aimed at reducing the spread of coronavirus are now facing legal challenges from residents and state officials alike, alleging that some measures – mostly put in place by Democrats -- go too far while the country gradually moves toward reopening.

California alone is facing at least a dozen lawsuits that include claims that the state has unjustly closed down gun shops and religious services, infringed on freedoms of speech and assembly by restricting protests, and one case where a resident alleges that being forced to remain at home constitutes forced detention without due process.

“We’re being challenged,” California Gov. Gavin Newsom, a Democrat, told CNN’s “State of the Union” on Sunday. “All across this country, every single day, governors are being challenged, local health officials are being challenged, and it’s a spirit of collaboration. Those that continue to pursue things that put people in harm’s risk, you have to have stepped up efforts and enforcement and sanctions.”

That reference to “collaboration” was with regard to Tesla founder Elon Musk, who reopened business in Alameda County, stating in advance on the Internet that he would be disobeying an order requiring him to remain closed. Newsom said that by the time the Tesla facility was open for business, it was with permission following negotiations with the county government.

“They came together and they were able to work out a framework of modifications to keep their workers safe,” Newsom said.

Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer is up against a lawsuit from Republicans in her state’s House and Senate over her extension of an already-strict emergency order that has regulated residents’ movement and closed businesses. The GOP lawsuit claims that Whitmer overstepped her authority by extending her previous shutdown order, saying she needs the legislature’s approval to extend it beyond 28 days.

Whitmer responded by calling the lawsuit “a political bluff” and “power grab” by the Republican lawmakers.

In Wisconsin, the state Supreme Court struck down the state's “safer at home” on Wednesday, saying the administration of Gov. Tony Evers, a Democrat, overstepped its authority when it extended the order through the end of May. The ruling said any future orders must be approved by the state’s legislature.

Kentucky protesters sued officials including Gov. Andy Beshear, also a Democrat, for allegedly violating the First Amendment by banning mass protests. In another lawsuit a federal judge temporarily blocked Beshear’s ban on in-person church services.

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton warned that he could take action against the cities of Austin, San Antonio, and Dallas if they do not scale back orders that are more restrictive than state-issued measures. Gov. Greg Abbott is moving toward reopening the state and said that while businesses have the freedom to reopen or remain closed, local governments do not have the option to keep them closed, the Texas Tribunereported.

As Politico noted, while the lawsuits mostly have gone against Democrats, Republican Governors Larry Hogan of Maryland and Mike DeWine of Ohio have faced challenges, as well. Business and religious leaders were joined by state delegates in suing Hogan to block his order. A group of Ohio gyms sued DeWine over his reopening order excluding them from those businesses allowed to operate, but it was subsequently announced that they will be allowed to reopen after all. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dem-imposed-pandemic-orders-face-lawsuits-across-the-nation

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.36  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.2.35    4 years ago

I am not sure what to say, or what you EXPECT me to say and feel about this article. The interplay of activities, policies, and ideas is necessarily dynamic. Compromise or at the least considerations pluses and minuses are par for the course. Courts do have a possible role to play.

What is this gloating overtones about? These are dangerous times right now, dangerous activities, and possibly (probably) risky judgement being made.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.3  CB  replied to  Thomas @4    4 years ago

We can do both things with prioritization and organization. But Trump. Trump send up a 'flare' to red states to not march in unison with those fighting the virus, but to abandon them on the field of viral conquest, and to open-wide in a state of ignorance so Washington can see if they can 'swallow' the virus whole or not! Trump wants people to imagine they are 'warriors' now. Perhaps they are that, "warriors" -ill equipped, without a unified command, and hauling piss pour equipment around the fields of battle.

All while the "not warrior" in the White House, demands that nobody let the virus get another step. . . in his direction. Inside his White House. The first-line workers can only wish they had a 'warrior' to look after them so well. Indeed.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.3.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.3    4 years ago

That is so ridiculous.  The Presidents wuhan virus commission is not ending.  We are still being driven by facts and data.  We are still using social distancing and precautions.  We still have presidential guidelines to follow in re opening.  The President has done a great job in flattening the curve and getting us prepared to deal with any 2nd wave or future other pandemic and made it possible that we can help other nations now get through this.  The President has encouraged us in blue states opening too slowly to keep up with the federal guidelines or at least free the counties and regions within their states that are ready. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.3.2  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.3.1    4 years ago

That's untrue. And you should know Trump is not following his own federal coronavirus guidelines. No mask. Improper social distancing. No quarantining in the White House for him after a risk of exposure. You need to buy a clue. Use this comment as a 'token.'

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
4.3.3  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @4.3.2    4 years ago

You’d just love to see the executive branch of the federal government quarantined for a couple of weeks...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.3.4  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.3.3    4 years ago

And you know what I would love: How? Please proceed. . . . 

Here is something I know from observation, you support 99.99% of the lying statements coming out of Donald Trump's mouth and the less than 1% of truth therein. What say you?

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6  Thomas    4 years ago

we all know some on the left want to destroy our economies 

Why would anyone want to destroy the economy? Don't we all live here? Don't we all have to put up with the same economy? 

Besides, I thought all lib's wanted to suck off the teat of the rich like the leaches they are(sarc)?? Some logical internal consistency would be nice..

And this statement:

if a captain's first priority was the safety of the ship? that ship would never leave port.

That is the captain's first priority. If he has no ship, he is not much of a captain anymore.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
6.1  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  Thomas @6    4 years ago

being at sea is much more dangerous than being in port.

the number one concern of a ship is shipping not hanging around in port

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
6.2  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  Thomas @6    4 years ago
Why would anyone want to destroy the economy?

some on the left will stop at nothing to win this election against trump including putting millions of people in poverty to do it.

why?  they have TDS 

but I explained that already above. 

5.1.2    we all know some on the left want to destroy our economies because at election time , and I quote "its the economy stupid"
 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.2.1  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @6.2    4 years ago

Shove conspiracy theories. You might be looking for monsters, but the truth is some of us don't have to go very far at all! It is here.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
6.2.2  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @6.2.1    4 years ago
but the truth is some of us don't have to go very far at all! It is here.

sorry to hear that.     if your state is still closed?     talk to your governor  

256

also, join a class action lawsuit against china?  I did.

sure the lawyers make out best, but id rather an american law firm has the cash than china... LOL

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.2.3  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @6.2.2    4 years ago

@4.2.17!

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
6.2.4  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @6.2.3    4 years ago

cheers :)

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.4  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thomas @6    4 years ago
Why would anyone want to destroy the economy?














You see, people like Bill Maher and Nicole Wallace have said it - they want to destroy the economy to defeat Trump in November.

Any more questions?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
7  CB    4 years ago

It is the medical profession and the scientist that are bringing the nation through and out the other side of this pandemic (when the time arrives). Conservatives do not sell yourselves on knowing how to bully or buy your way out or through this. Many people will remember how you sat on your hands with your shitty attitudes about death (panels) come this fall! Trump conservatives, I can not respect people who do not respect other people enough to wish them life in/through a pandemic.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
7.1  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @7    4 years ago
It is the medical profession and the scientist that are bringing the nation through and out the other side of this pandemic

tellin it like it is.....

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
7.1.1  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @7.1    4 years ago

@4.2.17!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
8  seeder  XXJefferson51    4 years ago

And now Elon Musk is going to move from Alameda County California to Texas and move their HQ to Nevada or Texas over the restart our economy issue.  Tesla was going to restart production Monday and the idiot county said no.  Way to go Bay Area!  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
8.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8    4 years ago

Tesla CEO Elon Musk threatened Saturday to pull the company’s factory and headquarters out of California and sued local officials who have stopped the company from reopening its electric vehicle factory.

In a lawsuit filed in federal court, Tesla accused the Alameda County Health Department of overstepping federal and state coronavirus restrictions when it stopped Tesla from restarting production at its factory in Fremont. The lawsuit contends Tesla factory workers are allowed to work during California’s stay-at-home order because the facility is considered “critical infrastructure.“

“Frankly, this is the final straw,” Musk tweeted. “Tesla will now move its HQ and future programs to Texas/Nevada immediately.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dallasnews.com/business/autos/2020/05/09/is-tesla-texas-bound-elon-musk-threatens-to-move-company-out-of-california/%3foutputType=amp

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
8.1.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.1    4 years ago

Large and medium size corporations can leverage themselves vs various states to get their needs met and get restarted.  The small and micro businesses and their working class population tied to an area without mobility not so much.  I hope Musk sets in motion an exodus of those who can from locked down blue states to opening up red ones.  

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
8.1.2  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.1.1    4 years ago

as doctor no fuks to give said above at 7.1

when liquor stores are deemed essential while your business is deemed non-essential?  something is wrong

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
8.1.3  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @8.1.2    4 years ago

And a democrat state legislators response to what Musk said was a four letter word expletive beginning with the letter F.  The sheer arrogance of government to think it can dictate terms of existence to us serfs....  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
9  seeder  XXJefferson51    4 years ago

It’s sad that we even have to explain such basic elementary civics and economics to them.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10  seeder  XXJefferson51    4 years ago

“....Pennsylvania Trump supporters will be watching for signs of support for their rebellion against their Democrat governor.

The president weighed in on Monday, criticizing Democrats in the state for playing politics with the lockdowns.

“The great people of Pennsylvania want their freedom now, and they are fully aware of what that entails,” Trump wrote on Twitter.

On Friday, Trump criticized Gov. Wolf’s handling of the coronavirus lockdowns after meeting with Pennsylvania Republicans Rep. Scott Perry and Rep. Guy Reschenthaler.

“What the Democrats are doing in Pennsylvania is a disgrace,””.... https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/05/13/donald-trump-to-visit-pennsylvania-during-rebellion-against-gov-tom-wolfs-coronavirus-lockdowns/

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10    4 years ago

Donald Trump is one of the most ignorant and impossible creatures on this planet right now. A dumb, stupid, divider who is 'forever' somewhere not following his or other federal guidelines—health related or otherwise. That he can find sympathetic voices in the republican and conservative Trump supporters, by definition means these people are Trump 'lites' or worse. They could be the very ones putting Trump up to it.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.1  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1    4 years ago

Pennsylvania is one of if not the most restrictive states in the country.  They have one of those dictator control freak governors with a god complex.  Trump is right to give support to the re opening resistance there.  In Wisconsin the Supreme Court overturned that governor and his Pennsylvania like plan.  The court said the governor and legislature must work together to make the lockdown and the governor can’t unilaterally do it so now no rules in Wisconsin.  The governor there seems prepared to have no rules than partner with the GOP legislature to write cooperative rules and then hope for disaster so he can blame Republicans for stopping his unilateral dictatorship.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.2  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.1    4 years ago
The governor there seems prepared to have no rules than partner with the GOP legislature to write cooperative rules and then hope for disaster so he can blame Republicans for stopping his unilateral dictatorship.  

You know, . . .you are trying to have it both ways. That's stinkin' thinkin.

You know,. . . I got a ticket on one of your threads where you speak of "god complexes," as you obviously did not like it when I evidenced Trump's narcissism 'disorder' in relief. So I would kindly ask that you desist your mention of others who you view, in your 'vast' opinion, as having a god complex.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.3  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.2    4 years ago

I don’t recall ticketing any of your posts. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.4  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.2    4 years ago

Speaking of God complex...here’s a little  political humor to lighten our day...

image-15.png

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.5  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.4    4 years ago

I would tell you where to go, but youhey! how's the weather?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.6  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.5    4 years ago

That’s ok.  You are a liberal Christian and I’m a conservative one.  We agree on very little but even where we are diametrically opposed I’d fight to my end to preserve your right to believe what you do and your right to freely speak your mind.  It’s a part of what being an American is all about

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.7  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.6    4 years ago

That's untrue. You don't even believe liberal Christians are going to be in fundamentalist Heaven. And for that matter, you wouldn't dare engage me in a proper discussion about a belief in Jesus, social gospels, and the history of our 'faiths,' plural.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.8  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.7    4 years ago

There is only one Heaven and everyone who ever lived to this point who has lived their lives according to the the best light they’ve been shown by the Holy Spirit regardless of the religion and society they were a part of most certainly will be in Heaven.  Politically liberal Christians who believe by faith and once a believer grow their relationship with God and act and do good works in order to please him will be saved.  Christina, Jews, Muslims who don’t let go of an repent all sins and cling to one or more even while outwardly professing belief will not be saved whether they are conservative or liberal.  For Christians there is The Bible.  The one I as a Protestant believe in and read has four gospels in the New Testament that reveal the life and mission of Jesus.  I’m not familiar with social gospels.  Are they related to Catholic liberation theology? 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.9  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.8    4 years ago
Christina, Jews, Muslims who don’t let go of an repent all sins and cling to one or more even while outwardly professing belief will not be saved whether they are conservative or liberal.

By your beliefs, the uber majority of all human beings who have lived are thus not in Heaven or destined for Heaven.    God is sure wasting a ton of souls;  nice plan.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.10  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.8    4 years ago
There is only one Heaven and everyone who ever lived to this point who has lived their lives according to the the best light they’ve been shown by the Holy Spirit regardless of the religion and society they were a part of most certainly will be in Heaven.  
Politically liberal Christians who believe by faith and once a believer grow their relationship with God and act and do good works in order to please him will be saved.  
Christina, Jews, Muslims who don’t let go of an repent all sins and cling to one or more even while outwardly professing belief will not be saved whether they are conservative or liberal.

That middle paragraph is vague and unimpressive. Moreover, I am not sure what politics lends to good faith discipline.

Paragraph One and Three are inconsistent. One says, "best light" (meaning I suppose, best of their ability) can be Saved; Three implies, "best light (Para. One)" can not be saved due to an or a set of unrepentant sin(s) in this life.

Want to clean this up; so we can discuss it properly?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.11  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.8    4 years ago

Social gospels do take account of the human state of existence in this life, and see it just as necessary to avoid oppression of others in the here and now as in the life to come. Fundamentalism focuses on the eternal state of the life to come. I believe in treating all people as equals and right accordingly and in miracles and the life to come.

Social gospels are not Catholic Liberation Theology, but there could be bridges that dot the landscapes.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.12  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.5    4 years ago

Weathers not bad!  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.13  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.9    4 years ago

If people are living by the best light shown them they will not cling to things that has been shown to them as wrong. You are correct though that a significant majority of humanity particularly those living in the very last days will be lost.  Jesus said narrow is the path to salvation and wide is the road to destruction.  I have no idea what the ratio of saved vs lost will be over time or even among those living at the moment of the 2nd coming.  There are analogies between the great flood and the 2nd coming including by Jesus Himself and hopefully proportionally more will be saved in the future than back then.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.14  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.9    4 years ago

That’s where free will comes in.  Many will choose not to accept the gift to us all from the plan of salvation.  Pride, reason, and logic will get in the way.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.15  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.11    4 years ago

Evangelical Christianity focuses on both salvation with the eternal life to come as well as mitigating the human suffering of the here and now.  That is why we set up schools and universities, build and operate hospitals and medical clinics all over the world too as well as provide charities that help the down trodden, the poor, the prisoner, the sick, provide globally disaster relief from man made and natural disasters, from food and water to purification tablets, blankets, clothing, tents and other housing, money, tools, first aid, etc.  it’s why we go into the poorest regions on earth and build fresh clean water wells, teach basic trade skills, and farming skills more advanced, provide micro loans, and build basic schools and hospitals in addition to the church or even without the church in areas we can’t proselytize.   People are more open to what we believe when we are there to help them meet their here and now needs and ease human suffering.  I’m not sure where you got the misconception about us that we don’t meet peoples mental and physical needs as well as their spiritual needs.  They all work together.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.16  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.13    4 years ago
If people are living by the best light shown them they will not cling to things that has been shown to them as wrong.

Clinging to things that have been show to them as wrong is ironic.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.17  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.10    4 years ago

No one can be saved by doing works to the best of their ability.  Works are done because we grow in our relationship with God and want to please Him, not because we do them in order to save ourselves.  Best light shown is what we have learned and been shown by God in our lives.  So a person living outside of Israel before the cross or outside of where Christianity had spread after the cross in their lives will be individually saved if they have lived according to what they have been shown in their lives by God through whatever means He uses to do so.  People of every nationality and religion living by the best they have been shown will not cling to something that they’ve been shown is wrong.  There were believers as well after the flood and before Israel was created by God through Abraham to being the Messiah and salvation to the world. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.18  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.14    4 years ago
Many will choose not to accept the gift to us all from the plan of salvation.  Pride, reason, and logic will get in the way.  

One can only hope that reason and logic will free people from ancient false beliefs.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.19  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.15    4 years ago
 I’m not sure where you got the misconception about us that we don’t meet peoples mental and physical needs as well as their spiritual needs.  They all work together.  

For a good work and set of behaviors, you can and will be praised, honored, and blessed. But, fundamentalist Christians are also intolerant, meddlesome, and trying to turn the government of the United States into governance oriented toward the fundamentalist Church! This has been going on for a century now.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.20  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.17    4 years ago

Somewhere in that comment, I take for granted you are stating that God can make a servant/follower of anybody God chooses (See Jeremiah even or the thief on the cross) at the 'appointed time.'

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.21  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.16    4 years ago

We will cling to an assurance of salvation and eternal life even while the proponents of logic and reason deny it will ever happen.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.22  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.21    4 years ago
We will cling to an assurance of salvation and eternal life even while the proponents of logic and reason deny it will ever happen.  

Again you fail to understand the argument of your interlocutors.    It is not denial, it is lack of being convinced.   There is a major difference between denying something is true and being unconvinced it is true.   The former requires evidence (proof).   The latter is simply an honest statement about the lack of persuasive evidence.

Simply stated:  Denying that there is an afterlife requires evidence (proof really).   Noting that the concept of an afterlife has no supporting evidence is simply stating a fact.   Noting that one is thus not convinced an afterlife exists is just being honest (and logical).

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.23  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.20    4 years ago

There is no one who ever lived who couldn’t have been saved.  There were and will be many who didn’t, wouldn’t, and won’t be.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.24  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.23    4 years ago

How can you possibly know this?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.25  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.22    4 years ago

Almost thou convinceth me to be a Christian.....You will never ever find the signs and wonders that you seek after.  People will believe by faith or they won’t.  Those that won’t will break down into some active opponents of the faith and many passive ones who just go about their lives trying to never take a side.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
10.1.26  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.21    4 years ago
We will cling to an assurance of salvation and eternal life

Telling yourself feel good stories and such doesn't make them come true, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.

even while the proponents of logic and reason deny it will ever happen.  

That's because proponents of logic and reason tend to think critically and not be gullible or willfully ignorant. So until you provide some evidence of your claim, we'll continue to deny and challenge them.

No one can be saved by doing works to the best of their ability.

And anyone who can think critically will immediately understand just how absurd and effed up of a system that is.

Works are done because we grow in our relationship with God and want to please Him

Kind of like how dogs want to please their owners.

Best light shown is what we have learned and been shown by God in our lives.

In other words, what you've convinced yourself of.

People of every nationality and religion living by the best they have been shown will not cling to something that they’ve been shown is wrong.

What makes you think you're right and everyone else is wrong? 

There were believers as well after the flood and before Israel was created by God through Abraham to being the Messiah and salvation to the world.

The flood you refer to never happened.

That’s where free will comes in.

Not possible with an omniscient, omnipotent god.

 Many will choose not to accept the gift to us all from the plan of salvation.  Pride, reason, and logic will get in the way.  

It's amazing how some reject logic and reasoning in favor or emotion and delusion. Choosing illogic is not logical.

You will never ever find the signs and wonders that you seek after.

That's because it doesn't exist. It's just imaginary nonsense.

People will believe by faith or they won’t.

And belief does not equal fact!

 Those that won’t will break down into some active opponents of the faith and many passive ones who just go about their lives trying to never take a side.  

It's not faith itself that some oppose. It's the absurd claims made based on faith.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
10.1.27  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.24    4 years ago

Because he just makes it up as he goes along.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.28  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.25    4 years ago
You will never ever find the signs and wonders that you seek after.  People will believe by faith or they won’t.  

I agree.   Faith = believing something to be true based simply on other people merely claiming it is true.

That is a horrible method for finding truth.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
10.1.29  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.28    4 years ago
That is a horrible method for finding truth.

But yet, some think they know the "truth" because they get their "truth" from a "holy" book or similar source. And anything which deviates from or contradicts that book must be rejected or perceived as wrong, and not the book. Go figure.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.30  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.23    4 years ago

That is the point, ultimately. God saves souls (or permits it not to be so). For those of us who belong to God are Gods. And none can remove us from God. So, why do you take a political stand with an unconfessed and unrepentant Donald Trump who does conservative bidding in an attempt to prune, whip, compel (by force), or box-in people who if they are ultimately to be revealed in God/Jesus will come in at their appointed time and not any instance sooner?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.31  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.30    4 years ago

Regardless of whether you believe Trump really is now a believer or in any way changed since he surrounded himself with religious leaders since he began running for President or not, how would electing Hillary have made anything better for us?  She agreed with next to nothing we believe and would have fought us on almost every given issue.  God has converted and used people in history who did far worse things than Trump ever did.  How can you be certain that God didn’t pick him to accomplish something advancing his will for us in this time?  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.32  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Gordy327 @10.1.29    4 years ago

that is correct.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.33  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.28    4 years ago

That’s interesting and everything but this  seed is about how that now the shutdown is the greatest potential tragedy facing America right now.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.34  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.33    4 years ago

You opened the door:

HA @10.1.8 ☞ There is only one Heaven and everyone who ever lived to this point who has lived their lives according to the the best light they’ve been shown by the Holy Spirit regardless of the religion and society they were a part of most certainly will be in Heaven.  Politically liberal Christians who believe by faith and once a believer grow their relationship with God and act and do good works in order to please him will be saved.  Christina, Jews, Muslims who don’t let go of an repent all sins and cling to one or more even while outwardly professing belief will not be saved whether they are conservative or liberal.  For Christians there is The Bible.  The one I as a Protestant believe in and read has four gospels in the New Testament that reveal the life and mission of Jesus.  I’m not familiar with social gospels.  Are they related to Catholic liberation theology? 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
10.1.35  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.32    4 years ago
that is correct.

And that is also intellectually dishonest and cowardly.

how would electing Hillary have made anything better for us? 

I suppose we'll never know. But at least Hillary had for more experience and "qualifications" for the position of Presidency. 

She agreed with next to nothing we believe and would have fought us on almost every given issue.

So? Some people say the same thing about Trump.

How can you be certain that God didn’t pick him to accomplish something advancing his will for us in this time?  

How can you be certain he did? But god doing that negates any choice we have in selecting our leader. So much for free will.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.36  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.31    4 years ago

Listen. That is a dodge. Trump conservatives did not choose Trump from a collection of other conservative politicians because of Hillary Clinton. Just stop with the untrue scenario. Trump conservatives wanted this guy that will listen to your complaints about society and (finally) act—without compassion by the way, giving the results he is trying to provide you. That is why you are not just okay with Trump; y'all celebrate him daily.

As to what God's plans are with Trump or Hillary; my advice to you is stay with the tangible issues you can see and/or touch.

Finally, that was not the gist of @10.1.30. The question goes to why are conservatives like you fundamentally trying to 'corral' people into your worldview whether they want "in" or not?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.37  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.34    4 years ago

And that was in response to something CB asked me because he tried to use religion to support his position regarding the lockdown vs restarting issue.  It was an A B conversation that you can C yourself out of.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.38  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.37    4 years ago

Does not matter from my perspective.   From my perspective you opened the door for my comment.   That is a fact.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.39  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.36    4 years ago

I’m not trying to corral anyone into anything.  I’m simply expressing my view point which is every bit as valid as anyone else’s.  Is advocating for a quicker restart of the economy and supporting protesters in states slow to re open corralling people to my world view?  Does the fact that conservatives express what we believe and use non mainstream media to do it force you into my world view or are you suggesting that there is no place here for people like me to express or share what it is that I believe or value?  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.40  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.38    4 years ago

[Deleted.  Meta and a personal insult]

[HA, you cannot talk religion, then repeatedly flag comments regarding religion as off topic.  Continuing to do so may result in suspension of your ability to flag.]

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.41  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.37    4 years ago

I am not TRYING to use religion to support anything that it can not support. After all, we all know (that is, we have been told) that God comes first in the life of a fundamentalist Christian, even if in other sects, and denominations too. So, how you want us to yield to some fantastic understanding that you can serve God equally and at the same time cordon off manna the compassionless ways and means of Donald Trump to get wealth and a good life is frankly inconsistent.

I am sure you have heard, read, and had explained to you that Jesus spoke of the 'salt that has lost it savor' and its worthlessness to 'the master' God.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.42  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.39    4 years ago

You are supporting Trump. You are supporting Fox News. By definition, you claim parity with their beliefs, attitudes, and policy prescriptions. Trump and Fox News are not looking for diversity or tolerance with other citizens in this country. Both parties, and I will go on to add the fundamentalists Church which supports this president and Fox News are looking to takeover near all of United States public policy for conservative principles, thought, and its ideologies, through and through.

Admit it, the conservative long-term strategic plan is to lead the liberals, progressives, secularists, scientists (even), and "others" categories out into the political wilderness and abandon them there! Shorn away from making public policy in science, religious-thought, or human/civil rights.

Time to tell it like it is! No (damn) chaser!

Trump's, Hannity's, Ingraham's, Carlson's, and Fox News' understanding of tolerance and diversity is to follow Donald Trump for as long as you can keep him in power and lead this great country into conservative politics, for its own sake. That is, allow Trump be an authoritarian leader in concert with the conservative movement and its affiliates. Nothing more added or removed.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.43  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.40    4 years ago

No, you have a few who will challenge claims of certainty that deserve a challenge.   For example, claiming that coronovirus is the product of Satan.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
10.1.44  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.43    4 years ago
claiming that coronovirus is the product of Satan.

Let's not forget, even if the virus was caused by Satan, god allowed it and does nothing to eliminate it, as tens of thousands have already died from it. God seems rather inept at this whole deity thing.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
10.1.45  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.39    4 years ago
 I’m simply expressing my view point which is every bit as valid as anyone else’s.

Yeah, no! When you make claims like Covid was created by Satan, that's the exact opposite of a valid view point. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.46  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.41    4 years ago

I really do not have real wealth.  It’s possible that I could be one of the least affluent members here.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.47  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.42    4 years ago

If Trump was going to be an authoritarian leader the pandemic gave him the perfect opportunity to do it. He could have used it to impose all sorts of things due to the emergency.  He didn’t. He set up the federal government to create guide lines and to meet the needs of the states.  He did the opposite.  He did federalism as well as it could be done.  He only occasionally had to compel a company to produce something.  The dictatorial authoritarian control freak impulses came mostly from blue mayors and governors with god complexes along with two red governors.  It is progressives who resort to coercion to compel compliance against our will when they have the raw political power to do so. 

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
10.1.48  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.47    4 years ago
If Trump was going to be an authoritarian leader the pandemic gave him the perfect opportunity to do it.

exactly.

  we would have "quarantine camps"  set up in the desert,  filled with liberals, progressives, socialists, and communists.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
10.1.49  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @10.1.42    4 years ago
Admit it, the conservative long-term strategic plan is to lead the liberals, progressives, secularists, scientists (even), and "others" categories out into the political wilderness and abandon them there!

Ummm no....  try this instead.

  the conservative long-term strategic plan is to lead the liberals, socialists, communists and progressives, out into the political wilderness and abandon them there!

I will gladly admit, today's leftwing ideology has no long term future in this country.

but trump is not leading that movement...  we are.   

 he is just the guy we elected, he will be gone in 5yrs.  and we will still be here. wait until you see our next trick.

bottom line?


you're not trapped in here with "trump,            you're trapped in here with us.

when the collective left is ready to die for their cause?  let us know.

until then? nothing but failure in the left's future..

the pen may be more mighty than a sword but the 2nd amendment was written with a pen.     think about that... LOL

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.50  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.47    4 years ago

Stop spewing those well-rehearsed and rather sub-standard talking points. Trump is having his way with the pandemic! When he could not push through it; he rather rashly decided to ignore it wholesale. He took his 'ball' that is, himself-Pence-the CDC and in the manner of an autocrat left the field/stage. The states are left begging in the streets for funding to do federal government tasks of control and uniformity.

Many of you, Trump conservatives, who whisper in Trump's ear with a bull-horn, are dangerously cruel and authentically incompassionate people sold to an ideology.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.51  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @10.1.48    4 years ago

That’s what some think trump or conservatives want to do when in reality it will be the above doing that to us less worthy people who resist their dogma.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.52  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.46    4 years ago

Perhaps you after the trappings of power and influence then?  Rather than have me cast about for your reasons for being conservative, you can voluntarily share them any time you wish. Other than that; your politics speak volumes!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
10.1.53  Texan1211  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.40    4 years ago
Removed for context - sandy

[Deleted]

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.54  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Texan1211 @10.1.53    4 years ago

Indeed.  And they see science, reason, and logic in that kind of behavior.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.55  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.52    4 years ago

Why do I owe you an explanation as to why I became and am a conservative?  Why is it that when I do discuss what I believe you simply dismiss what I am for talking points?  My political outlook is mine and what it speaks is in the eye of the beholder.  The fact is that I am in the broad mainstream of evangelical Protestantism and the broad mainstream of populist conservatism.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.56  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.52    4 years ago

I grew up thinking democrat.  Both of my parents were/are democrats.  My moms parents were democrats while my dads were Republicans.  We lived in proximity to my moms parents.  My parents were union democrats.  Where I lived and live now was overwhelmingly democrat.  I grew up liking Hubert Humphrey.  In grade school I set up a class room bulletin board for democrats and McGovern and led the pro Mc Govern debate team in class. I despised Nixon and celebrated his political demise and the 1974 effects.  Later those effects soured me on the party. All of my best friends growing up were/are Republicans. We discussed issues.  My parents were moderate union democrats in a heavily union area due to logging and lumber and paper mills along with medical and government worker unions.  The area while democrat was always strongly pro 2nd amendment and pro life.  When democrats had telethons on tv Redding often contributed more than some whole states to the party. After he retired as Governor Ronald Reagan had a radio commentary every morning just before we’d walk to school.  I’d disliked him before because he was a Republican but being open minded I wanted hear what the other side had to say.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
10.1.57  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.54    4 years ago
And they see science, reason, and logic in that kind of behavior.  

More like some use science, logic, and reason to question and challenge baseless claims made, especially when said claims lack evidence and fly in the face of logic, reasoning, or established science. It's an objective way of observing and analyzing the world, rather than relying on emotion or subjective perspectives. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.1.58  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @10.1.57    4 years ago

Some seek to know as many true things as possible while others seek to ‘know’ what is most comforting.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.59  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.56    4 years ago

As I listened to him what he was saying made sense to me and I was drawn to him.  I was still democrat but liked him. I supported him in his primary against Ford.  I liked senator Henry Scoop Jackson of Washington in my party. They both lost and I went back to Carter.  I was always a hawk regarding the Cold War as most union leaders were and supported a strong national defense.  When Carter promised to cancel the B-1 bomber and Peace keeper missile I told my friends that was the last straw and joined them in supporting Ford whom my parents also really liked.  I was torn until in Ca. there was proposition 13 about property taxes.  My parents supported that as did I.  I also liked Kemp and Roth and their tax proposals. I figured that Reagan would run again so I registered as a Republican to support that and because I didn’t like gov moonbeam.  My first vote was for prop. 13.  So I became a national defense and economic conservative.  I was a college Republican and full volunteer for Reagan locally.  By 1980 our county had grown a lot in population with a lot of people from Contra Costa and Orange counties relocating here. It went from overwhelmingly democrat to even from 1972-1980.  Now it’s overwhelmingly Republican.  So military and economic issues and Ronald Reagan made me from a democrat to a Reagan democrat to a Republican.  A conservative.  I have been one ever since.  Like Reagan said, I didn’t leave the democrat party, the democrat party left me.  I’m liberal for a Republican on certain issues but even those positions on race, immigration, and orientation while making me quite moderate on the authoritarian-libertarian graph at political compass but a bigot according to present democrat dogma. So, now you know how and why I became a conservative 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.60  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.40    4 years ago

The devil causing corona was never the topic of any religion talk here.  It was imported from a discussion on a locked seed.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.61  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Texan1211 @10.1.53    4 years ago

Great post and right on.  Thanks for your support here

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
10.1.62  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @10.1.58    4 years ago
Some seek to know as many true things as possible while others seek to ‘know’ what is most comforting.

Indeed. And the difference between them is intellectual integrity and honesty.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
10.1.63  Texan1211  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.61    4 years ago

I took no pride in being correct.

Save yourself some grief--ignore the trash-talking. That is all most of it is, anyways, though it may come cloaked as "science, reason and logic". It still is nothing more than trash talk.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.64  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Texan1211 @10.1.63    4 years ago

You are correct about what it is and how it is cloaked. I will try to take your wise advice.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.65  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @10.1.49    4 years ago

Your idol boast is ignorant. If you must talk through veiled threats - don't bother responding. "There is nothing to fear but fear itself." And The Magic Eight Ball nobody is going to kiss your ass to get along with you that I know.

I hope I am being plain and clear enough.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.66  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.55    4 years ago

You are tapped into the veins of fundamentalist Christianity, the republican party, and conservatism. There is for now, no daylight between you, the republican party, and Trump supporters. So you might as well admit it - your comment history already tells on you.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.67  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.64    4 years ago

Let's compare the wisdom of God together with your 1920 fundamentalism and its drive to 'own' the constitution. A document, by the way, owned by the citizens of the twenty-first century now. The first century citizens and the founders are all long since dead and not coming back to reunite with any of this!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.68  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.66    4 years ago

Notice that there was no mention of Religion in that history.  The changing of the fundamental and evangelical churches from support of no politics to supporting democrats to supporting Reagan had nothing to do with me becoming a Republican.  They were still all in for Carter when I started listening to Reagan.  By the time they abandoned Carter for Reagan I was already in the GOP as an economic and defense conservative.  I did welcome them as I liked the triad of economic, defense, social conservatives to broaden the tent and expand the appeal of conservatives.  While I am an evangelical, I prefer some separation of church and state so I’m still primarily an economic and defense conservative.  I am pro 2A and pro life and I became more open to populism with the Tea Party but still not into economic populism until after Trump became President.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.69  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.68    4 years ago

You might have found a home of sorts in Falwell's Moral Majority and his views regarding this nation's economic and national security "crises." Then, there were the moral crises and the conservative held views concerning the "Other". . . .

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.70  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.69    4 years ago

I’ve never been a part of the fundamentalist moral majority or the evangelical Christian coalition even though I’m sympathetic to some of the goals of each.  I tend to go with Cal Thomas who believes that some went too far in the here and now political world at the expense of the primary mission which is proselytizing and bringing the good news of salvation to all the world.  I agree with him that that is more important and that preaching along with alleviating human suffering via education, medical facilities, charities for multiple causes, is more important than political goals. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.71  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.70    4 years ago

Falwell hailed to Evangelicalism mostly, yes? His organization successfully 'crashed' ahead of the formation of the Christian Coalition's start, nevertheless.  Trump is compassion-less as dictated by himself. His goals are completely political goals. How does Trump's goals comport with what you say of Cal Thomas?  Please elaborate.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.72  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.71    4 years ago

Falwell closed down moral majority for largely the reasons mentioned by Thomas.  Christian Coalition picked up where he left off until it’s founder used it to run for President himself.  It was active through the end of the 1990’s and has pretty much disappeared as well.  As to Trump, he’s my President, not my pastor.  He’s clearly secular oriented on most policy goals during his administration but he has done some very nice things that evangelical Christians supported  or asked him to do.  I support his as he led the effort against the pandemic, had days of prayer during it as well as relying on science and following an established game plan for dealing with it.  I’m grateful to him for starting the re open America restarting the economy movement and providing verbal, moral, and legal support for protesters where governments overreached.  That he supports pro life and is pro 2A and actively promotes religious liberty here and around the world, and that he is re making the federal judiciary is very nice too

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.73  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.72    4 years ago

Well,  I can see you know your conservative policy stances and positions. While I can now plainly 'study' your personal policy of invoking the separation of church and state portion (with Trump), in this case, the separation is not consistent with a tenet of faith to not countenance a man or woman who repeatedly and generously lies and bears false witness against many neighbors, nevertheless. Also, our Christian faith is about the long haul and certainly not about expediency. Our faith instills patience and carefully bringing others along—if they come near at all.

Trump is a man of great impatience and a force multiplier.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
10.1.74  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @10.1.65    4 years ago
through veiled threats

when you figure out the difference between a threat and a promise?  you will be one more step ahead of the game.

I made no threats, just a promise.

today's leftwing progressive / socialist ideology has no future in this country without a full blown civil war first.

just like the sun coming up tomorrow - count on it.

but hey, if yall wanna fuk up a state like cali or ny?   go for it.

but the whole country? fuggedaboutit.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.75  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @10.1.74    4 years ago

Well, 'hiding' seems to be the trick you're pulling off now. Also, talk is cheap and freakishly boring. And you can stuff your threats of civil war. Many have tried before-unsuccessfully.

Nobody with any sense or courage is going to concede any ground to a sect of fake terrorists on U.S. soil.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
10.1.76  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @10.1.75    4 years ago
'hiding'

LOL newsflash... I have a life.   

 threats of civil war. Many have tried before-unsuccessfully.

far as I know we have only had one civil war...  if need be the next one will be against socialism.

but too be honest I dont think it will happen in any of our lifetimes 

progressives and socialists are going to be irrelevant for decades to come

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.77  CB  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @10.1.76    4 years ago

I'm done with you. Are you done with me? Yeah. You ARE done.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
10.1.78  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  CB @10.1.77    4 years ago
Are you done with me?

every time you reply to me? 

I reply back,   you can count on that also.,

hint:   for best results, use that ignore feature

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.79  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @10.1.76    4 years ago

Some of them are showing their true colors during the re opening battles around the country.  The public is rejecting their control freak god complexes and defying them.  

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
10.1.80  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.79    4 years ago
 The public is rejecting their control freak god complexes and defying them.  

yepp, I have been watching, 

 judges are overturning lockdowns as well.  Illinois and Wisconsin are leading the way.

im sure more to come.

showing their true colors during the re opening

turning blue voters red with anger.      those voters won't forgive or forget either.

it is like the left is committing political suicide, on purpose, in broad day light on national tv or something... 

don't they understand those governors are toast next election? and their state likely to turn red also?

but, progressives are regressive like that.   1 step forward and then 10 steps back

everything they have done for the last 12 yrs has backfired on them,   and they have yet to spot the trend... LOL

I mean, it is actually comical to watch :)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.82  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.79    4 years ago

Sensationalism is Trump's forte. Is it Trump's supporters' also? (Can you see why I consider certain attitudes and expressions, "talking points"?)

Personal point of privilege: I really need Comcast 'local' to reopen as I need somethings from the branch - so looking forward to some coordinated open doors real soon!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.83  CB  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.81    4 years ago

Clashing cymbals. The American "experiment' continues. . . .Whoopee do. We are a study in liberty, in times of crises. Makes me wonder how much longer any one will bother to want to hold public office. The 'rewards' are scant in this era of "cut-throat" and 'hang-person' politics.

As for as wrecking politicians, republicans and conservatives use SCORE CARDS (A+ through F-) to wreck individual careers and families projected upward movements. Talk about "hammering" and telling somebody what they can or can't do.

The hypocrisy is breathtakingly off-putting in here.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.85  CB  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.84    4 years ago

Says you. Long processes cut short: This country works better if we all could get our collective politics coordinated and synch. Other wise recognized as: Working on one accord.

Instead, this country has for decades been walking down history's corridor like an intoxicated drunk. It is a wonder this experiment works at all; because we take so much for granted in our efforts to screw each other (group of people) over! Especially now. At least, one yahoo wants a civil war for crying out loud all by him or her self!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.87  CB  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.86    4 years ago

Yeah right. The SCORE CARD. It seems to work efficiently and keeping conservative/republicans toting the [line.deletedThey] truly ARE the voice of red states—y'all see to it. That and conservative talk jocks on the dial across the country 24/7. A republican politician is the public embodiment of your thought processes/policies. [deleted]

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.89  CB  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.88    4 years ago

Yeah. Talking points and SCORE CARDS. Must have glanced a hardened nerve. Ouchie!  As to "y'all". . . just roll with it. Somebody somewhere on the planet gets it. Y'all can too! (See what I did there.) You would not be making fun of some people's drawl. That's elitist!

Alrighty then!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.91  CB  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.90    4 years ago

I am not trying to annoy y'all, Xdm9mm. Nosirreebob. (Smile.) As for unjustifiable namecalling I will chock it up to character. As for what passes as laughter to you, I can guarantee you what "peppers" your belly is my least concern in the moment or at the end of a day.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.92  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @10.1.80    4 years ago

And they think that they are turning states blue for November by their actions.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.93  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.82    4 years ago

Why is it that every time one of us conservatives here says something here you refer dismissively to what we say as talking points as if we are too darn stupid to come up with what we say on our own? Inquiring minds want to know! 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.94  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.92    4 years ago

The question is: Are y'all turning states 'Red'?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.95  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.86    4 years ago

Plus there are groups like people for the American Way and Americans for democratic action that have their progressive score cards too

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
10.1.97  Texan1211  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.93    4 years ago
Why is it that every time one of us conservatives here says something here you refer dismissively to what we say as talking points as if we are too darn stupid to come up with what we say on our own?

I find many pseudo-intellectuals tend to do that because it doesn't take any real effort.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.98  CB  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.96    4 years ago

You're digressing. Unless you have something relevant for me. I m moving on. . . .

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.100  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.81    4 years ago

i wish my gym would re open.  We could stay 6 feet apart and use precautions in the weights and aerobic machines areas as well as the massage beds and tanning rooms.  Bravo to the NJ gym owner!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.102  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Texan1211 @10.1.97    4 years ago

some try to justify it all in the name of science, reason, and logic.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.105  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.93    4 years ago

Because I read conservative articles, sites, and on occasion "research" conservative talk radio for what's happening. I have experience with conservative talking points, having been a type of conservative early on in my past, too.  (Smile.) I am an 'old hand' at this.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.106  CB  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.104    4 years ago

Yes. Trump supporting republicans and conservatives do love their "perpetual crises," and dividing people over stupid political "rights and wrongs" perpetually.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.107  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.98    4 years ago

....Health and Human Services Sec. Alex Azar said on Sunday that so far there has been no spike in coronavirus cases in areas beginning to reopen. In fact, the secretary noted, the spikes we are seeing are happening in areas that remain closed. 

"We are seeing that in places that are opening, we’re not seeing this spike in cases," Sec. Azar said on CNN's State of the Union on Sunday. "We still see spikes in some areas that are, in fact, closed."

Sec. Azar touted the importance of good surveillance and testing in allowing states the ability to safely reopen. 

"First, we need to have good surveillance. So we need to look for influenza-like illness and other respiratory disease. We have a great surveillance system for that. We look for spikes and early indicators. We have adequate testing capacity. We need to make sure anybody who is symptomatic is tested and that we have adequate asymptomatic surveillance in areas of greatest burden," Sec. Azar said. 

The secretary also described the appropriate response once a spike in cases is detected in a localized area.... https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/05/17/hhs-secretary-no-coronavirus-spike-in-reopened-areas-only-closed-ones-n2568971

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.108  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.107    4 years ago

You're digressing. This is a well-traveled area of discussion already.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.109  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.73    4 years ago

I’m glad that you recognize that I know conservative policies and my positions on the issues.  It beats the old comments about me bleating talking points of others.  That’s some progress.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.110  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.75    4 years ago

Who are the people in this sect of fake terrorists on US soil? 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.111  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.109    4 years ago

What does one thing have to do with the other. You are part of the conservative 'network'? Yes or No? You post articles from across that 'spectrum'? Yes or No? You are a viewer of Fox News? Yes or No? Do you have subscriptions to conservative newsletters? Do you receive 'material resources'? Are you a 'member' in the Christian-Right?

Let's not waste time on digression.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.112  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.110    4 years ago

Direct your question to the [DELETED one] speaking about civil war. I would if I was you.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.113  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.111    4 years ago

I’m not part of any network. I did post articles from mainstream conservative news and opinion sites.  I am proudly a Fox News viewer.  I don’t subscribe to any newsletters.  I get no materials sent to me.  I am a Christian who happens to be a conservative.  I belong to no church based political organization.  Your point?  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.114  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.112    4 years ago

Don’t call another member a fake terrorist or an onboard terrorist on my seeds. It’s time to take the level of dialogue here in a more positive direction.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.115  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.114    4 years ago

So this commenter provokes all of us with a new civil war on your thread:

_v=63f541589777973
10.1.74   The Magic Eight Ball   replied to  CB @ 10.1.65     yesterday
t hrough veiled threats

when you figure out the difference between a threat and a promise?  you will be one more step ahead of the game.

I made no threats, just a promise.

today's leftwing progressive / socialist ideology has no future in this country without a full blown civil war first.

just like the sun coming up tomorrow - count on it.

but hey, if yall wanna fuk up a state like cali or ny?   go for it.

but the whole country? fuggedaboutit.

And I am the problem here? How are you 'grading' these comments?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.116  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.113    4 years ago

You can't prove it. After all, Trump has a 'church' of sort on his staff: The Christian Right. So you are indirectly associated. Fox News viewers get the 'blue-plate' Special of every 'thang.' You don't have to admit to it. It's okay. You're quoting Townhall, at 10.1.107.

Should I worry that you don't see the connective tissue? (Pearls clutching.)

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.117  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.116    4 years ago

Town Hall is a valid news source.  One of our radio talk show stations locally has top of the hour news from Town Hall news and the other one has Fox Radio News.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.118  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @10.1.117    4 years ago

Yeah. You're networked. Rather you call it that or not! Call it whatever you want. Freedom!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
10.1.119  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @10.1.118    4 years ago

That must be it!  Two conservative NewsTalk radio stations, access to the internet, access to Fox News, membership in the local Republican Party and the local Tea Party.  A conservative in a city and county in California that voted for Trump over Hillary by a 62%-29% margin.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.120  CB  replied to  CB @10.1.115    4 years ago

Yeah, I thought so. Really don't need a light to see what is going on here, HA!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11  seeder  XXJefferson51    4 years ago

He said it yesterday and I saw nothing about his wise words here.  I seeded the article elsewhere.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11    4 years ago

Yes. A Trump official is speaking. One of those persons who he has not cut off the bottom of their garment or outright fired. One of the one's huddled around him under close scrutiny.

 
 
 
Gazoo
Junior Silent
11.1.1  Gazoo  replied to  CB @11.1    4 years ago

You must be talking of those not loyal to him. If their loyalties lie elsewhere they need to go. I would say that about ANY president, not just Trump.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.2  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @11.1    4 years ago

What about what he said?  Any comment on that?  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.3  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.2    4 years ago

Trump won't let him speak a negative word free and clear. Were Azar to do so he would highly probably be take out and 'axed.' You know how this goes in Trump cult of personality. Thus, there is no trust extended to unvetted words from Trump loyalists. Rather true or false, Azar's words/claims are questionable until thoroughly tested. Therefore, I can neither verify or deny anything Azar has stated there.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.4  CB  replied to  Gazoo @11.1.1    4 years ago

There are loyalties and 'loyalties.' There is a rule of law in this country. Trump is not law unto himself, despite what he and his cult thinks about it.

 
 
 
Gazoo
Junior Silent
11.1.5  Gazoo  replied to  CB @11.1.4    4 years ago

Trump is not law unto himself, despite what he and his cult thinks about it.”

Not sure where you got that. It sure wasn’t my comment. This isn’t about illegal activities or actions.

Let’s try an experiment. Go behind your boss’s back and undermine what he’s trying to accomplish. We can all place bets on how long it would be till you were unemployed.

or, let’s say you are the boss. You lay out your agenda and what you hope and expect to accomplish. Then you find out several subordinates are sabotaging your efforts. What do you do? Do you fire them? Or accept their sabotage as an “oh well” moment and keep them on your team? 

i know what i would do, what would you do, CB?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.6  CB  replied to  Gazoo @11.1.5    4 years ago

There is a flaw in your reasoning: Any president is not in the private sector while a servant of the people - evenso in the private sector there are over-arching rules and contract laws.

Trump is a public sector employee himself subject to rules and regulations involving Congress and case law. Something we could readily see and Trump experience were we able to have a neutral senate (not this one).  Federal employees, specifically career employees,have contracts with rules and contractual conditions too.

 
 
 
Gazoo
Junior Silent
11.1.7  Gazoo  replied to  CB @11.1.6    4 years ago

No, my reasoning applies to the public and private sector. Insubordination usually results in the insubordinate getting fired, or resigning. It happens in the private sector, and the public sector. Trump is not the first president to fire anyone, and won’t be the last. Does the name Stanley McChrystal ring a bell?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.8  CB  replied to  Gazoo @11.1.7    4 years ago

You can not be an insubordinate federal worker if you are following the law and the duties and responsibilities of the job, Gazoo. 

 
 
 
Gazoo
Junior Silent
11.1.9  Gazoo  replied to  CB @11.1.8    4 years ago

“You can not be an insubordinate federal worker if you are following the law and the duties and responsibilities of the job, Gazoo.”

that’s rather obvious. Why do you keep mentioning “the law?” A person can be insubordinate without breaking “the law.”

The problem of insubordination comes when one does not follow the “duties and responsibilities” of the job. In that case the superior has every right to fire the insubordinate whether it’s in the public or private sector.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.10  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  Gazoo @11.1.9    4 years ago

He mentions the law because he assumes that Trump is always on the wrong side of it.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.11  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.10    4 years ago

I mention law because it regulates federal rules and contracts. Duties and responsibilities are set in federal law (and guidelines). Please share with Gazoo.

Trump should not be 'selectively' throwing family folks out of jobs (during a pandemic and shutdown), because they do not fulfill a single whim of his. It's a problem that you don't consider the humanity involved here.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.12  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @11.1.11    4 years ago

I do consider the humanity of people forbidden to go back to work or restart their businesses because of unreasonable laws in a variety of places.  

 
 
 
Gazoo
Junior Silent
11.1.13  Gazoo  replied to  CB @11.1.11    4 years ago

“Please share with Gazoo.”

now you have to converse with me through other people? Lol, whatever.

Your proxy shouldn’t bother because you do not get it and by the looks of it you never will so what’s the point? 

you let your hatred of Trump blind you to the fact that presidents actually fire people. It has happened many times in the past but you don’t seem to care about that, just orange man bad. Hell, even beijing biden recently said he wants people loyal to him around him,,,,,but that’s ok,,,,right? 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
11.1.14  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Gazoo @11.1.13    4 years ago

this ig was doing his job, which is oversight, but yours, and all Trump defenders who shimmy under Barr via undersight not unseen, just obscene .

.

All citizens as well As ENTIRE CONGRESS should be concerned, as forth firing of such, in 5 weeks.

.

For one who claims he has Nothing to hide, as he NEVER does anything but "perfect' calls, the Orange Clown sure has to remove a lot of people around him...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.15  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.12    4 years ago

You should consider a 'host' of factors. You might if you had the job. Anybody can sit in the bleachers and jeer. On a positive note, y'all delivered your issues and got a good response. However, the problem is not letting it go to y'all's head.

Politics aside. The governor who is adeptly aware of the whole 'system' of California is taking more into account to formulate judgements/decisions/plans than what rural California thinks is good for its own self-interests.

That is not in anyway hard for an open-minded person to comprehend or be satisfied with.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.16  CB  replied to  Gazoo @11.1.13    4 years ago

Well Gazoo, the good news is I reckon he won't have to fire you during this pandemic or after it. Yay!

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
11.1.17  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.12    4 years ago

320

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.18  CB  replied to  igknorantzrulz @11.1.14    4 years ago

Thanks Ig,

Gazoo is blowing smoke up! They sit and spin shit all day long for Trump and let him kick innocent people around, because they are the bullies behind the bully. When you see Trump; you see the Gazoo's of this nation!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.20  CB  replied to  XDm9mm @11.1.19    4 years ago

Yeah, well did Trump's pandemic plan call for a perfunctory national shutdown and 2 trillion dollars in business and public checks to the citizenry? Schools shut down from coast to coast? You can elaborate after your 'hysterics.'

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.21  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @11.1.15    4 years ago

Our governor who is going to lay off police and firefighters first responders first and cut aid to the elderly poor and disabled first along with education next if the President and Congress don’t come through with all the money for the states that he’s holding them hostage for.  But he can still find money to give cash to illegal aliens regardless.  I loved the sign from protesters outside his home that said, “bow down to his majesty”. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.22  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @11.1.15    4 years ago

‘Reopen’ protesters use bullhorn to crash Shasta County board meeting

?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gannett-cdn.com%2Fpresto%2F2020%2F05%2F19%2FPRRS%2F2ea4bd7d-cbd0-4121-a65f-a0a94f2c9f34-IMG_9395.jpg%3Fwidth%3D540%26height%3D%26fit%3Dbounds%26auto%3Dwebp&w=1280 Elissa McEuen of Millville spoke with county Supervisor Mary Rickert during a break in the Board of Supervisors meeting Tuesday.

(Photo: Damon Arthur/Record Searchlight)

Dozens of protesters crashed the Shasta County Board of Supervisors meeting Tuesday with one of them using a bullhorn to read a statement urging the board to ease restrictions on businesses and public gatherings during the coronavirus outbreak.

After she was denied a chance to speak to the board, Elissa McEuen stood outside the meeting room and loudly implored the board to ease COVID-19 restrictions.

“We, the people of Shasta County, are gathered here today in a peaceful assembly to appeal to our Shasta County Board of Supervisors to defend our constitutional rights as reserved to us, the people, by our Bill of Rights,” McEuen said, speaking into a bullhorn and talking through the glass partition separating the meeting room from the foyer outside.

County Counsel Rubin Cruse explained the rules governing public comments during the coronavirus restrictions. Visitors are not allowed to sit in the board chambers during meetings because of social distancing restrictions, so the supervisors took written public comments during the meeting.

Those comments were then read by the board clerk while McEuen and about 30 other people stood outside in the foyer holding signs.

Back in March, Gov. Gavin Newsom issued an edict to close schools and numerous businesses and ordered people to stay home except for essential activities.

He also ordered that no large gatherings be held to ensure people keep at least 6 feet apart to prevent the spread of the disease which has killed more than 3,300 people statewide.

Just this week, though, the governor announced easing some of the restrictions, allowing some businesses and other activities to reopen, such as some offices and counseling services in places of worship, curbside libraries and drive-in movies.

But most businesses remain closed.

At the board meeting Tuesday, deputy board clerk Mary Williams read many of the 72 letters sent in urging the board to ease restrictions on businesses and public gatherings. When Williams finished, Supervisor Les Baugh said he received a letter from McEuen, who wanted to read a statement at the meeting.

?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gannett-cdn.com%2Fpresto%2F2020%2F05%2F19%2FPRRS%2F508f7604-96a1-41df-be53-ad40fca525e7-IMG_9378.jpg%3Fwidth%3D540%26height%3D%26fit%3Dbounds%26auto%3Dwebp&w=1280 Dozens of people met outside the Shasta County Board of Supervisors meeting room to urge the board to ease restrictions on people, schools and businesses.

Board Chairwoman Mary Rickert denied the request, saying it would be unfair to others who were not allowed to personally address the board.

Baugh, however, asked the board to relent and allow McEuen to speak. He noted that Jake Mangas, president and CEO of the Redding Chamber of Commerce, was allowed to call in by phone and address the board.

“We don’t meet for two more weeks. These folks are here,” Baugh said. “They have requested that they address us. I think it’s appropriate we respect the legal advice of our counsel, but we all know that we have the ability to say yes.

“We don’t have to ask the governor of the state of California or our lead counsel. We can say, ‘We can hear you today,’ and there’s nothing wrong with hearing our citizens,” Baugh said, drawing cheers from the group watching through the glass.

The remarks, however, triggered a terse exchange between Baugh, Rickert and Supervisor Leonard Moty.

“Is your grandstand play over now?” Moty said.

“This has nothing to do with me,” Baugh said.

“Oh, Mr. Baugh, it has everything to do with you,” Rickert shot back.

Tuesday's meeting marked the second time this month that Baugh has stood in a squall of controversy.

The supervisor from Anderson got blasted earlier this month when residents criticized him for a bragging in a Facebook post about getting his hair cut at a local barbershop, in defiance of state orders to close them down.

Rickert tried to get back to the meeting agenda, but didn't get far.

“Alright we’re going to move on to the consent calendar. I’m happy to talk to any representative that contacts me,” Rickert said.

But Baugh interrupted her.

“Mary, this is not my orchestration. Folks, did I contact any of you to do this?” he said to the group still peering through the glass?

“Mr. Baugh, I’ve seen emails with your name on them that you’re part of this,” Rickert said.

“It’s just not true,” he said.

“I’m sorry, I’ve seen the emails. … This is ridiculous we need to conduct a meeting,” she said.

At that point Supervisor Steve Morgan asked if McEuen could phone in and read her statement. When Rickert tried to continue the meeting, McEuen picked up her bullhorn and began reading out loud, facing the glass partition.

“According to the authority granted to us, the people, we affirm that Shasta County is open. Now, it’s your turn, take a vote and open Shasta County now. Do not delay another hour, another day. Do your sworn duty and secure our rights,” McEuen said.

But the board did not vote to open the county.

The meeting, however, didn’t go on much longer, and after McEuen finished giving her statement the board took a break. Rickert, escorted by Sheriff Eric Magrini, went out into the foyer and met with McEuen. The two talked and Rickert offered to meet with her personally.

After most of the protesters left the building, the board continued to discuss the coronavirus’ impact on the county. Rickert said she hoped the group would have stayed behind to hear the rest of the meeting.

“I again want to apologize for my lack of decorum. It was not typical of my behavior, but I apologize but emotions have been running high,” she said.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.23  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.22    4 years ago
o-T2pop1_bigger.jpeg

Protesters use megaphone to ask Shasta County Supervisors to ease coronavirus restrictions.

uQX3GTWzMmdf3dAo?format=jpg&name=900x900
See Damon Arthur's other Tweets
 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.24  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @11.1.16    4 years ago
cb051420dAPR20200513084509.jpgbg051420dAPR20200514044507.jpgsbr051420dAPR20200514054507.jpgmrz051420dAPR20200514064512.jpggv051420dAPR20200514074510.jpgcb051420dAPC20200513084509.jpgafb051420dAPR20200514074506.jpgstg051420dAPR20200514014510.jpgsk051420dAPR20200514034508.jpgpayn_c17375120200513120100.jpgmle200513c20200513113142.jpgstg051320dAPR20200512024506.jpgmrz051320dAPR20200513064509.jpgbg051320dAPR20200513024534.jpglb200514c20200513042243.jpgkn051320dAPR20200514014554.jpgOuch_Small20200513073334.jpgafb051320dAPR20200513044529.jpgcb051320dAPC20200513034515.jpggoodwyn_Ears_burning_lr_05122020200512050525.jpgbg051220dAPR20200511114506.jpgmrz051220dAPR20200512054541.jpgstg051220dAPR20200511014508.jpggv051220dAPR20200512094613.jpgafb051220dAPR20200512044508.jpgaria_c17367420200512120100.jpgmrz051120dBP20200509014619.jpgkn051120dAPR20200511054508.jpglb200512c20200511084052.jpgDropping_The_Charges_1_Small20200511105524.jpgstg051120dAPR20200509044509.jpgstg051120dBP20200509044509.jpgMagnify_Small20200511051904.jpgbg051120dAPC20200510024509.jpgafb051120dAPR20200511054505.jpgstg051020dAPR20200509094506.jpgpayn_c17366920200510120100.jpgkn051020dAPR20200511024504.jpggv051020dAPC20200510014513.jpgafb051020dAPC20200510054505.jpgsk051020dAPC20200509034507.jpgpayn_c17366720200509120100.jpgafb050920dAPC20200509034526.jpgThe_Key_1_Small20200509041438.jpgcb050920dAPC20200509124519.jpggoodwyn_Risk_lr_05102020200510122336.jpgmle200509c20200509120145.jpgmrz050820dAPR20200508034523.jpgafb050820dAPR20200508054505.jpgsk050820dAPR20200508034510.jpglb200509c20200508042704.jpgcb050820dAPR20200508014509.jpgsbr050820dAPR20200508024515.jpggv050820dAPR20200508024554.jpg

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.25  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.24    4 years ago

Okay! That was good for you - was it good for you? I knew you were 'rapt' in propaganda!

Did You know. In the inverse: If you sit and watch a shit pile long enough, you could find something POSITIVE to say about it?

Did You know. In the inverse: If you sit and watch a blue sky long enough, you could find something NEGATIVE to say about it?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.26  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @11.1.25    4 years ago

You didn’t know that conservatives have and can use a sense of humor? 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.27  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.26    4 years ago

Propaganda-minted minds, you mean?

a-mind-is-a-terrible-thing-to-waste.jpg

RECLAIM your space! End Trump 'bots' —or is it the other way around?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.28  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @11.1.27    4 years ago

Worship is Essential: President Trump Vows to Override Governors on Religious Liberty

2ea14eff-9547-4dc8-845d-69a0f38c6d73.jpg

Source: (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

Speaking from the White House Friday afternoon, President Donald Trump announced houses of worship have been classified as essential services by the federal government.  

"At my direction the Centers for Disease Control and prevention is issuing guidance for communities of faith," Trump said. "Today I am identifying houses of worship, churches, synagogues and mosques as essential places that provide essential services. Some governors have deemed liquor stores and abortion clinics as essential but have left out churches and other houses of worship. It's not right. So I'm correcting this injustice and calling houses of worship essential." 

"I call upon governors to allow our churches and places of worship to open right now. If there's any question, they're going to have to call me but they're not going to be successful in that call. These are places that hold our society together and keep our people united. The people are demanding to go to church and synagogues, go to their mosque. Many millions of Americans embrace worship as an essential part of life. The ministers, pastors, rabbis, imams and other faith leaders will make sure their congregations are safe as they gather and pray. I know them well, they love their congregations, they love their people. They don't want anything bad to happen to them or to anybody else," he continued. "The governors need to do the right thing and allow these very important, essential places of faith to open right now, for this weekend. If they don't do it, I will override the governors. In America we need more prayers, not less." 

A number of Democrat  governors around the country have continually limited and cracked down on religious services, even while congregations practiced social distancing. Some pastors have been told their rights have been "suspended" under stay-at-home orders. 

Throughout the course of the Wuhan coronavirus pandemic, Attorney General Bill Barr has filed a number of legal suits against local governors infringing upon religious liberty. 

Recommended from Townhall.   https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2020/05/22/trump-presser-on-churches-n2569314

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.29  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.28    4 years ago

Er yes, Townhall "issue" again! So much for 'my own thoughts and no one else involved.'

Does Trump have authority to make governors open up churches? Point me to the law involved, please.

For the record, I happen to know some pastors who do not appreciate this "heat" from so-called evangelicals against their congregations. "Many" Christians approve of the wisdom involved in not getting out ahead of good health standards and practice over attempts at vain-glorious freedoms during a pandemic. "Many" Christian leaders love their flock enough to 'shut the gate, until the storm has passed and a comprehensive all-clear is sounded."

Personal note: Heartland American, I am not sure why you pushed this at me per se, because I strolled this thread and it is specifically about Christian-Right propaganda cartoons and their lack of appropriateness for the situation we are in. Those cartoons you are displaying.

If you wish to engage on the matters of spirituality and what God loves, and what is good and proper for the people of God (in Jesus) by all means, let's 'sharpen' one another. I welcome it. (Smile.)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.30  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.28    4 years ago

What you won't have this memorial weekend religious experience is any pixs of Donald Trump in a Sunday service at a church!

Trump is signaling to you to go 'viral' with your church "freedom-expressions" religious organizations. I can liken it to Trump's appearances without any mask in public everywhere he goes.  Trump is signing to you all (y'all). And you are expected to 'sign' back! Trump takes hydroxychloroquine and expects you should buoy up his stance of this drug—ditto.

What do you say? Go on mimic "He-Man" Trump and become your very own "He-Man & He-Woman"!

NOTE: NT have expectations of pixs from the church services this memorial Sunday! And Bible Study Tuesday.  Report! You can blur the faces. . . .

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.31  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @11.1.29    4 years ago

The real issue is whether mayors or governors had the right to trample upon 1st amendment free exercise federal rights that are applied to the states in the first place.  Most churches were willing to voluntarily stop meeting in large groups at the beginning.  The Supreme Court must answer whether any government compulsory ban against meeting under any circumstances including social distancing was constitutional in the first place

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
11.1.32  seeder  XXJefferson51  replied to  CB @11.1.29    4 years ago

You do realize that this article was available on virtually every media? Would you had preferred the Christian Post? There was no significant difference between those two and Fox and Newsmax. Do you think that God is opposed to us meeting together to worship him, praise Him, and pray to him using social distancing and precautions? This whole series of events is like a warm up to the very real persecution genuine Christianity will face in the last days as the counterfeit appears...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.33  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.31    4 years ago

So. . . the question is. . . this: Do Trump conservatives intend to make "a federal case" out of every issue they oppose, regardless of nuance or details?

If in your heart of heart you believe that even conservative judges and justices are prone to letting this country slip back into a hodge-podge of discriminatory practices and tribalisms, one of us is in for a rude awakening before we depart this planet.

Keep this in mind, you can only push the people and its constitution so far before they and it began to stress, and/or come apart at the seams.

This notion that a leader locally and nationally can not exercise discretion in a time of natural or induced emergency no matter how open-ended, in the interest of saving life and property and not just property.

Churches are in a special class under the constitution; however, the members of churches are not in a special class.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1.34  CB  replied to  XXJefferson51 @11.1.32    4 years ago

It was you who @10.1.93 wrote:

Why is it that every time one of us conservatives here says something here you refer dismissively to what we say as talking points as if we are too darn stupid to come up with what we say on our own? Inquiring minds want to know! 

And then you squandered the moment with overly-indulged propaganda cartoons and defensive statements about the value of Townhall and Fox News and the like. A clear demonstration that you do have connective tissue to conservative talking points, themes, and attitudes.

The churches can use precautions and other determinants to come together in a congregational setting. However, the State needs to follow its guidelines too—whatever they are. The church is a responsible "citizen" of the state; the state is a responsible entity to its constituents.

You are being melodramatic The 'last days' are not coming based on any metric or set of factors you or I can imagine or sequin together. Better to leave the "appointed times," as Jesus left them: In the mind of God-the Father.

 
 

Who is online


Jeremy Retired in NC
Veronica
Ronin2
Sean Treacy


80 visitors