What is a "Heated Discussion"?
I have genuine confusion surrounding this question.And from what I've seen...if we ask 20 different members this question, we just may get 20 different responses.
Since Perrie and the other founders of this great site have a strong passion for making sure NT is truly a community driven forum, I wanted to put this question to everyone just to see if we're all basically on the same page, if we're all of different opinions, or if it's just me that's wandering out in left field somewhere.
Because right now, I feel homeless.
On one site of the forum, whenever the issue has come up, I've seen opinions that go so far as saying a person shouldn't be "allowed" to make jokes about leaving the site if MSNBC ever took it over, because someone might really like MSNBC and making a negative comment about the network may make them stew silently or leave all together.
On that same side of the forum, I've seen people use nebulous phrases like "have manners" or "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Which is fine, until I asked one of those folks: "I want others to be blunt, straightforward and honest with me. No BS. Tell it like it is. Does that mean that's how I should treat others?" The response was essentially a "no", and by the end of the discussion, it had become evident that what the person really meant is "treat others the way you think they want to be treated even though you have no clue what they consider *poor manners*". Basically, walk on eggshells around everyone and shut your yap if there is any possiblity that you might hurt their feelings.
Well that's not me. If I notice that (for example) The Violence Policy center is admitting that they are playing on the confusion and ignorance of gun control advocates, I am going to say: "The Violence Policy Center says they are playing on the ignorance of gun grabbers. They are duping you. They admit it. And you are allowing them to do it".
Apparently for some, that is a "personal attack" and shouldn't be "allowed".
So I decided to check out the "Heated Discussions" group. And what I found there literally floored me. The sheer, unadulterated hatred and venom truly was sad. Ther is no way THAT was a fit for me.
So. Where do those of us who do as the site says and "Speak Our Mind" fit in? I don't really know. Hence, why I'm reaching out to all of you to get your take.
My definition:
Personal attacks are attacks on a PERSON. And example is: "You are a scum-suckingidiot". Attacking an idea, comment, topic, issue, politician, network, law, ideology, etc....are NOT personal attacks (unless said politician is a member here). Now, I've had people try and float the argument that if you attack an ideology or comment, you are indeed, attacking the "person" because the comment or ideology is part of the person. I disagree vehemently with that line of thinking. If we "disallow" being critical of an ideology, then in-depth discussion ceases to exist on this site.
Expecting another person to abide by, or even KNOW another members definition of "manners" is a non-starter. We have the CoC for a reason. It is clearly laid out. If you don't like a person's comment you have several options available to you. (a) Ask a moderator to review it. (b) ignore it. (c) respond in a manner you deem acceptable. One thing that is not an option, is demanding the other person conform to your definition of "nice".
Lastly, I suspect there are people here that just aren't used to seeing such an outstanding balance of strong conservatives, strong liberals and strong Libertarians or Indies. They are used to a site that leaned heavily left, had more people...(thus stronger "back up" on issues)...and they are a little unnerved to see more balance.
Naturally, that's just my opinion. But it seems to support this strange trend I see in people trying to quell others "manners" and chastise them for not being "nice", essentially trying to shame them into shutting up, rather than sticking to the debate at hand.
So in a nutshell...The CoC is a great guide. If a mod has to step in more than twice to reset a debate because of CoC violations, I would call that a "Heated Debate". If there are no CoC violations and there are only comments you don't like, my suggestion would be to either live with them, debunk them, or ignore them.
Curious to hear your thoughts...
I can't find a whole lot to argue with in your essay.
Being from the Deep South, I am a firm believer in mannerly behavior right up till you think someone is going to thump your pumpkin. At that point, all bets are off. One can certainly passionately argue a point without delving into the world of rudeness. It is not even a difficult endeavor. You are correct, lambasting a political/philosophical point of view is no threat or exhibition of ill manners.
My point of view on personal attacks on the internet is pretty much, who gives a shyte? It's the internet. In real life 99% of the folks that seem unable to avoid being personal would never do so were we all eye ball to eye ball. No sweat. It is very easy to ignore such.
I don't know about the Left/Right thing. There is no Left in the mainstream American political landscape. It's all sort of manufactured illusion anyhow.
Anyhow, interesting essay.
later gator
Thanks, Tex. That's what I like. Blunt. No BS.
I can especially relate to:
and...
It nice to know that if I AM wandering out here in left field, I'm not out here alone. There are at least two of us.
It seems to me that the point of political/philosophical argument is, more or less, to tear apart the oppositions argument. I cannot see how that could possibly be considered personal. Arguments can assuredly be "heated" without name calling.
My reality map is pretty radical and way out in the realm of the far Left but, truth be told, all this Right/Left obsession is pretty annoying. In the real and the catastrophic rodeo of day to day life it just don't mean shit. When the shit hits the fan, politics pretty much go out the window. My close friends are folks I want backing my play when shit does go down and it lives on both sides of the fence. Some of them are Wobbly Anarchists like unto me or Commies and Socialists. Some are Birchers and to the right of The Robber Barons. Until we are on different sides of the barricades swapping lead, it just doesn't matter. To me, anyhow.
Yeah, The South has historically had a great respect for manners. With the homogenization of our culture that seems to be changing and pretty soon we will be a Nation of Assholes. Not that we might not be presently.
You know, the South has historically been a well armed section of the country. I'm used to seeing the little old ladies at the Monday Night Church Supper Prayer Fest and Bridge Fete all take their purse guns out to compare them. Heck, it's one of the highlights of Fambly Reunions. So, in essence, manners are a necessary component of our society. Get too rude down here and somebody will call you on it one way or the other. I don't see that as a bad thing.
best atcha
I just call it that because it's not on the "front side" of the site. No intentional misnomer.
Mike -
Now THAT is an explanation I can live with. It is perfectly acceptable to truly speak my mind in the main forum. It is OK to use snark sparingly and when warranted, and it's OK to be passionate about subject matter.
THAT is what I needed to hear.
Because honestly, a lot of swear words or sentences that start with: "you are a....." simply aren't my style and rarely have been. The occasional "shit" will slip out, but that is generally expressed as "happy crap". If you ever see f*ck slip out in type from me, you know I'm thoroughly ticked. So I know my limitations and honestly don't think I would survive too long in many "Heated Discussions". My style is more of a sarcastic one that is blunt and points out the obvious when needed.
I just put up an article and asked everyone to "play" nicely with one another. Debate is welcome, but nastiness is not.
To me, that just means don't get downright nasty to each other. State your position, debunk away, but at the same time, don't be mean to one another.
Maintain a degree of civility. If you can't get your point across without resorting to name calling, etc., what's the point? At that point, it isn't communication, it is shouting...
So, other than that, I want discussion. I just don't want people calling each other names, or being mean on my articles.
Heated Discussions where people are hateful, mean, rude, vengeful, make their point at any cost-- that belongs in the Heated Discussion section-- not on other, normal articles. That's just my opinion, too. For what it's worth, (that and $1 will get you a cup of bad coffee at Mickey D's).
Me, either, Tex.
Knowing that someone may be carrying makes one a bit more able to be taken out in polite society...
Same here in the Midwest, Tex. But there's a fine line between manners and political correctness. The first one, I'm fine with. The second one, I refuse to participate in.
Where are you from, Pat? We may be "neighbors", and I've never known it!
A hair farther west than you, Dowser. Over in Iowa. About 50 miles or so from the MO border.
Nice state, Iowa... Filled with nice people. Everyone I've ever met from Iowa has been nice.
I lived in MO for a while in 1962-- St. Louis. So we were neighbors, even though you weren't born yet...
Well finally Bruce.. [wipes sweat from forehead], I've been waiting to say something without stepping on anyone's toes.
Well between Bruce and Mike, that is our basic policy. Bruce best sums it up here:
Most discussion is fine on the front board. Heat Discussions is for those of you who enjoy the life on the edge.. Think of it as the Roman Coliseum. To those of you who have a specific way you would like your article to run, including tone and languagenot used, all you have to do is state it in the beginning of the article, and the mods will make sure that it's enforced. In this way, we give our members the full array of freedom of speech.
Everyone has a personal style when it comes to how we discuss stuff. I tend to be very straight forward. I try to measure my words on the net, because that is who I am in real life. I don't expect everyone to be me. But I do live by Teddy Roosevelt's words: "Speak softly, but carry a big stick". Step out of line in the main forum, and expect big purple pen to show up.
That's what I love about you, Bruce. Straight up. Honesty.
I guess this leaves me with only one question remaining (since you brought up the ever-so-vague *grenade trolling*)...Is my definition of "personal attack" an accurate one?