Scriptural Orchard Co-authored by Calbab and Enoch
This article will examine ways in which scripture can be interpreted in more than only a literal fashion in both the Christian and Jewish tradition.
By Calbab:
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. —Apostle Peter. 2 Peter 1:20-21. Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Christians cannot find justification and comfort in the New Testament for holding to so-called, “private” interpretations, or any deriving of odd bible principles. Being “unique” in one’s biblical interpretations can be a danger signal that the reader is too prideful, over-spiritualizing, or is displaying a theological bias. The duty of each Christian is to first study and at some point study with other believers. Using this approach, clear discussion, alongside consideration of ideas and evidences, will increase understanding and cause the plain meaning of the text to expose itself.
Believers today must study what the New Testament books meant in their original intent. We must make every effort to understand The Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, Epistles (Letters), and The Revelation as first-century hearers and readers understood them. This process is called, exegesis . And when exegesis is done properly, it is carried out on each biblical text. The steps we take to make life-application of bible principles to our modern lives is called, hermeneutics. Proper exegeses and hermeneutics can grow and enhance a discipleship experience. And, discipleship is exactly what the Christian ‘Walk’ is all about.
What is “discipleship” beyond its definition? It is to conduct life on a similar earthly trek or plane as him (Jesus). Christian disciples walk like him , enjoy his spiritual presence, and seek to become a star in kingdom living though still an Earth native. We match his pattern; we work towards becoming like him in our inner beings. What did Jesus DO ? As impactful, what does Jesus SAY ? Every action Jesus took in his earthly ministry was meant to demonstrate his “God-awareness.” Jesus focused on fulfillment of his duty to his God and Father. Today, it is clear God-the Father is our Lord’s teacher . It can unconditionally be suggested one day we may be like Jesus, our teacher.
A pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone, after becoming fully trained, will be like his [or her] teacher. —Luke 6:40.
The first Believers were directed to wait on a teacher-adviser-comforter, who would be sent to instruct them in discipleship and be a close guide and friend. This Guide would bring personal evidence, a seal even, of a spirit-mankind relationship. The Spirit of Truth makes known divine presence in the life of confirmed believers. A confirmed believer can be thought of as an individual who bears his spiritual seal and over time brings forth spiritual fruits by following after the manner of Jesus, the Christ.
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit [Spirit of Truth], whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. —John 14:26.
Confirmed believers are not destined to have an utterly long separation – a spiritual “orphan hood.” As disciples and followers of Jesus, we interact with him by sharing “remembrances” with fellow human messengers and our spiritual Comforter, Advisor, and Guide. The New Testament is our sole source book originally rendered in Koine Greek, and as with any ancient and re-translated set of books, great study and work goes into bringing its many pages, stories, and truths out as a whole message. This process is called biblical interpretation .
If you abide in my word, then you are truly disciples of mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. —John 8:31-32.
What is this spiritual transformation, this burning or yearning inside that we awaken and flourish in when we study the actions and attitudes of Jesus and his Apostles?
The New Testament—Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, Epistles, and the Revelation are literature—and at the same time much more than literature. These writings aid mankind in understanding spiritual truths which otherwise would be unknown to us. The most important literary context question is, “What is the author’s point?” “What is the author’s train of thought?” To fully comprehend the author’s intent, modern bible readers use a “top-down” reading technique to ascertain the author’s units of thought .[i]
That is, meaning comes from the larger units of Scripture down to the lower units:
- Genre – Top level. This is the largest unit (of thought).
- Main idea.
- Paragraph idea – The reader’s most important level.
- Sentences.
- Words.
Moving back up the multiple levels of communication to genre , the broadest context, we will find that every word belongs and serves a useful purpose. Using this study form, bible passages make sense! A word is only meaningful because it is a part of larger units of thought that makes that word purposeful within its context.
The paragraph is the basic unit of though in the Bible. For readers, the trick will be determining where the paragraph ‘level’ begins. Bible chapter and verse notations were added in the sixteenth-century by Parisian publisher/printer Robert Estienne. Moreover, paragraphs can be unclear in some bibles due to printer’s styling all verses as paragraphs! To help find the reader’s most important “unit of thought” you can use some study tools:
- A good translation bible. (A "literal" bible translation (NASB, RSV, NRSV, KJB, NKJB) is better than a “dynamic” one (NIV, NAB, NEB, NLT).)
- A good bible dictionary.
- A good commentary.
NOTE: There are a wide variety of bible tools free on the web with compiled apps and services on-site!)
New Testament writers begin writing in genres . In the New Testament there are at least four genres:
- Gospels
- Acts of the Apostles
- Epistles (Letters)
- Revelation
The Gospels are predominately about the signs and wonders Jesus performed to persuade his audience he is the anointed one of God. The focus of the four books are on the birth, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Study of these narratives primarily should be to persuade readers Jesus is the proven Messiah.
Old Testament prophets in their writings foretold of miraculous changes in at least nine major aspects of the world when the Messiah would appear:
- Beneficial changes in the earth’s climate and natural elements.
- Unprecedented growth and fruitage of trees.
- Great productivity of animals, including a multitude of fish.
- Great abundances of food supplies.
- Wine would be abundant.
- Unprecedented changes in the animal kingdom.
- Freedom from ordinary hazards.
- Healing of physical diseases and deformities.
- Great longevity of life.
Jesus demonstrated power over each of these aspects during his years of ministry. The portrait Jesus paints of God during his service in ministry is foremost and primary. As followers of Jesus continue to draw out life-application principles for their own lives by his “modeling” faith, it is essential we comprehend just how much the day-to-day ministry activities of Jesus were closely tied to his attentiveness to fulfilling the Old Testament prophecies ascribed to the coming-Messiah.
The Acts of the Apostles intent is to inform us of what God began under the kingship of Jesus. Also, Acts explains the roots of our faith and the groundwork ‘plowed’ to get the first churches up and running. This book aids us by providing us with centuries old methods and techniques in ministry.
The Epistles are to teach, exhort, and model our identity as the church and how we are to live it in the community of God’s people by making godly choices in a myriad of practical areas in order to fulfill our spiritual purposes. I emphasize: It is important to observe the letters were written to individual churches in response to specific questions and concerns. In this sense, they are not doctrinal . That said, churches today, use hermeneutics to extract practical life-style information from the Apostles’ letters to early churches.
The Revelation is to encourage and exhort us to overcome through continued faith and faithfulness in the difficult times by revealing God’s ultimate triumph over Satan in establishing Christ’s kingdom and the new heaven and new earth.
Other writing forms in the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, Epistles, and Revelation require us to pay careful attention to uses of histories, genealogies, symbols, allegories, parables, figures of speech, metaphors, hyperboles, apocalypses, foreshadowings, and fantasy styles, so as to avoid going off the rails into literalistic and/or spiritualistic interpretation extremes. The New Testament writers’ use of literary styles does not cause damage to the meanings within these books, nevertheless.
An example of New Testament figurative speech :
“Destroy this temple,” said Jesus, “and I will raise it again in three days.”—John 2:19.
The spiritual leaders of Jesus’ day upon hearing these words interpreted them in a woodenly literal sense and balked because the temple they knew took forty-six years to build! Thus, they sneered at Jesus’ perceived loss of credibility throughout his ministry. After his death, it was realized Jesus spoke of the “temple” of his body rising in a literal three days and nights from the grave. (See: Number 9, “Great longevity of life.”)
Likewise, Apostle John wrote in Revelations 20:2, “And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, the devil and Satan” is not informing us in a woodenly literal fashion to be wary of a snake, or snakes! The work done by Jesus was not accomplished by standing on the neck of any serpent with a raised hand in victory, but by completion of his physical death on a bloody-gory cross, his burial, and his resurrection (Colossians 2:14 - 15).
A metaphor is an implied comparison that identifies a word or phrase with something that it does not literally represent. New Testament writers communicate spiritual realities through means of earthly, empirically perceptible events, persons, or objects-what might best be described as living metaphors . [ii]
‘10:1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice . . . . 7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.”’ — John 10: 1- 9.
This is a written metaphor of a shepherd, sheep, sheep pen, gate, and door used to represent Jesus as the Shepherd and the Protector who guards and grants access to salvation (pasture) for anyone who places his or her faith in him. The Pharisees, who did not accept there could be a “go-between” to God, upon hearing the clear explanation for this metaphor rejected it and Jesus.
Hyperbole is a tool of exaggeration meant to express n th degree. In John’s gospel:
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they *were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself *would not contain the books that *would be written. —John 21:25.
Observe how John magnifies the scale and scope of magisterial work Jesus had prepared to carry out in a relatively short time frame of three years.
Fantasy writing is present to touch upon impressions which are not yet clearly rendered. We continue to see such matters of humanity’s existence as through “glass dimly.” There are insights and prefigures (foreshadows) present, but there is shrouding also. John describes a sign appearing in Heaven,
An enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. —Revelations 12: 3 – 4.
Up above, I was clear to state the ‘old dragon’ is not a woodenly literal snake. Likewise, a literal third of the stars hitting the Earth would leave no planet to speak of! Fantasy writings in the Bible can be easily exploited and must be kept from interpretational abuse.
Illumination helps in appraising and accessing the “dynamite,” - “the power,” in the Gospels, Epistles, and Revelation. It is received when we ‘knit’ the writer’s genres, units of thought, paragraphs, sentences, and words, together to form clear frames of reference (unison). Like the biblical Bereans, readers of the New Testament who strive to go deeper into the texts are rewarded with greater width, height, breath, length, and depth of understanding. (Ephesians 3:19.) It involves the leaving behind elementary rules, customs, and traditions (milk) and moving over into the deeper issues of faith, brotherly love, peace and so forth (meat) which develops into enduring service.
There can be interpretational confusion having to do with measurements, weights, money (for example: baths, ephahs, denariuses, homers, talents, cubits, spans). Euphemisms (such as for women’s body functions, toilet functions, virginity, or forcible sex). Vocabulary (the choice of words that culturally carry the proper connotation across cultures.) Word-plays (these words tend to be unique in the original Greek and never quite as good in a receptor language). Gender (how to fix the awkward inclusion of women in male dominated writings. Words like, “someone,” somebody,” and other plural forms may be helpful).
Sadly, while bible translators/translations/interpretations are essential something of the original document wording can becomes dull or worse, left out completely (with no sufficient cross-over word). In such cases, to read the Bible for all its worth , it is crucial that we interpret it just as we would other forms of communication - in its most obvious and natural sense .
Also, readers need to avoid world-view confusion [iii]. This confusion arises whenever a reader of scripture fails to interpret the Bible within the intellectual and broadly cultural framework of the Bible itself and uses instead a foreign frame of reference. The New Testament message was shared quite a long time ago by ancient men. We must be careful readers who do not distort the biblical message with our own modern worldviews.
An interesting problem with interpreting the letters of Paul has to do with their “occasional” nature: The letters are task-driven . That is, the letters were not in themselves solely theology documents. Each was largely written to address a specific dilemma, set of problem/issues, and harmful world-view tendencies appearing in the newly spreading churches of the first-century. Thus, each letter has a “personal-side” combined into it.
Biblical hermeneutics is the applying of spiritual commonsense to how we live out New Testament texts in ordinary everyday ways. Our spiritual realities can become lopsided as we try to bring some of the early church principles up and expand on them in our western-styled churches and diverse cultures. This is why it is important that correct exegesis should come first. Believers today must determine through deep study and sharing with other believers, what are appropriate comparable particulars with the first-century church. In this regard, God’s word to us is the same as it was to them.
Basic rule: A text cannot mean what it never could have meant to its author or his readers.
Take time to do a complete read through of a Gospel, Acts of the Apostles, a Letter, or Revelation. Such a reading will provide broader context of the writer’s meaning. Make observations about the tenor or drift of the author’s message. For instance, is it subtle or straightforward? Also, try to gather some background history on the first-century readers being written to (use commentaries).
Biblical interpretation is both an intellectual and spiritual discipline and aesthetic and spiritual art. Discover the meaning in a passage through meditation on individual paragraphs looking for public and/or private comprehension. Guard yourself! Making life application of these texts to our lives must not do violence or violation to the original texts.
There are distinct differences between the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, Epistles, and the Revelation. God uses many literary styles to convey spiritual realities. It is the responsibility of a confirmed believer to show his/her —self approved through study to rightly divide truth from error. Interpretation which occurs in the fashion above keeps the reader out of pretext and on well-established and historically founded context . For a Christian to read the Bible for all its worth, s/he has to be prepared and equipped to grasp what, and only what, the author is asking us to receive as meaningful.
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. —2 Timothy 2:15.
References :
[i] Some content taken from (Playing with Fire) by (Walt Russell). Copyright © (2000). Used by permission of NavPress. All rights reserved. Represented by Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.
[ii] From the Bible Answerman show. http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/what-does-it-mean-to-interpret-the-bible-literally/
[iii] How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth. Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart, 3 rd edition, 2003. Zondervan.
By Enoch:
There are some who opine that all Scripture is to be taken literally 100% of the time. The purpose of this article is not to detract from so doing for those who favor it. Neither is it to disrespect those who adhere to this view. Rather it is to present what are problems with its use, and provide one of a number of viable alternatives.
Taking all Scripture literally faces the following challenges. There are contradictions, or things which seem inconsistent in texts. There are also things which can be interpreted in such a variety of ways with more or less equal justification that there is a coherence problem. Next, there are statements which, if taken literally do not correspond to known facts from non-religious activities (science, for example). It helps where there is a match between science and religion (archeological proofs of things referred to in Scripture). If what appears does not provide insights into things we don’t know, or point us in that general direction there is a lack of utility value beyond the basic points made. Pragmatic value increases the worth of an anthology.
There are texts and anthologies of texts which should be read and are specifically written to be read literally. Technical manuals for mechanical and electronic repair are good examples of this. Devotional literatures, such as Scriptural anthologies (TaNaCh, Talmud, Siddur, Machzor, Kitzer Schulchan Aruch, Bible, Koran, Upanishads, etc.) are not technical manuals. They are guidelines for living.
Like all great devotional anthologies, literary devices other than pure exposition are used to make points impossible to provide in totally literal writing and reading.
The enduring and appealing nature of such documents owes at least as much to their flaws (inconsistency, incoherence, lack of correspondence, and limitations of pragmatic value for new insights) as to their strengths.
This is so because they must appeal globally, timelessly, multi-culturally, and in shifting sands scenarios of living and life. Over millennia, weaknesses become strengths for sustainability.
One alternative for use in interpreting Scriptural, and for that matter any non-technical manual literature is the use of the method of Pardes .
In Hebrew, the term “pardes” means orchard. Seen as an acronym, the letters Peh (p), Reish (r), Dalet (d) and Samach (s) spell pardes. The letters refer to four different ways to interpret Scripture.
The Peh (p) is for Peshat. This is the literal interpretation. Sometimes it is necessary and important that things be interpreted exactly as written to avoid confusion.
For example, one of the Ten Commandments is not to murder. Note it wasn’t not to kill. The commandment is Lo Tirzach from the verb stem Lirtzoach. That means don’t murder. If it had been not to kill, it would have been written Lo Tararog from the verb stem Laharog. That means don’t kill.
Why is this literal interpretation important, as well as the word choice upon which it rests? In both cases there will be taking of life.
Murder is with the intent of an act of aggression for gain or out of hatred. Examples are murdering anyone to steal what is theirs, murdering someone as a hate crime because you don’t like their religion, race, ethnicity, gender, national origin, economic status, intimacy orientation etc.
Killing is the taking of life for an act of defense. It may be done to protect one self, family, community, nation etc. If the only way to prevent the use of lethal force against innocent people is to take life, it is not only permissible, it is ethically mandatory. The blameless should never suffer more than the nefarious.
The verbs Lirtzoach and Laharog are never used interchangeably in Scripture. Knowing when to and when not to take life is dependent on a literal interpretation in the original language of the Ten Commandments. This plays out universally in other Scriptures for when to interpret things literally.
Another example which gets to correspondence to known facts is to be found in the first sentence of the first paragraph of the first page of TaNaCh. “Bahraysheet bara Elohim, et ha shemayim veh et haaretz”. In the beginning G-d created the heavens and the earth.
Note it did not say, at first but rather in the beginning. It was written, Bahraysheet, not Bahrishon. Beginning and at first are not used interchangeably in Scripture. Why does this matter?
It is important because Biblically this isn’t the first creation. It is the beginning of a new era. Editors of Scriptural anthology did not track time as do we today. That there is proof beyond reasonable doubt that the universe is older than 6,000 or so tracked years on the Jewish calendar, for example is not incompatible with numerical temporal calculations versus carbon dating of the Big Bang. Following the flood of Noah, (also see Gilgamesh Epic) there was a new beginning and time tracking. Calendars, like computers get reset or rebooted when events articulating history merit them. This hasn’t anything to do with age of stars, etc. This is why in the beginning was used, instead of at first. The universe contains different aged components.
What other options have we for Scriptural interpretation besides merely literal? How do they function, and what are their advantages for us in understanding all relevant and possible meanings in Scripture?
Remez (Reish, r) is allegorical story telling narrative interpretation. There are many parallelisms and repetitions in Scripture. These are literary devices to convey meaning. Here are some examples.
There are two version of Creation in Bareysheet (Genesis). Why two? Because it is important enough to emphasize that the question of our origins is always of interest to us. There is a saying among Yemenite Jews. “Min ha Avar, Ateednu Yephtach”. From the past derives our future.
Knowing from where we came helps us to point to where we are going. Often multiple accounts of the same story helps us to recall them, shows their value, and also provides the same events from more than one perspective. That alone is very instructive. Many things in life can be seen in more than one way, with equal justification. Learning how to live well is in part dependent on learning that lesson early on.
Another example of repetition for emphasis is the Torah quotation Tzedek, Tzedek Tirdof. “Justice, Justice shall you pursue”. See Shofetim (Judges) {Deuteronomy} 16:20.
Justice is written twice. This is to call attention that justice is important.
Many stories in Scriptures are there to make non-literal points. A good story is also more interesting than a dry literal narrative. We all prefer novels to technical manuals when relaxing at home with a book.
Metushelach (Methuselah) did not live 900 years. But with age come experience, perspective and wisdom. His age was exaggerated to show how wise he was. There is a learning curve to life. Societies who venerate their elderly do better over time than those who disrespect them.
Numbers in Scripture make vastly more sense when not always taken literally. The point here has to do with the use of literary devices.
Next Dalet is for Derash. This is a theosophical literary device to derive meanings other than literal. The vast number of Sabbath and other High Holy Day Sermons at Services in many religions and spiritual activities fall into this category.
An example of this is from a Sermon I gave and reused in a publication on Succoth, the Festival of Weeks. Succoth occurs fifty days after Passover. There are seven days in a week. Seven days multiplied by seven weeks is forty nine days. On the fiftieth is Succoth. During those forty nine days we do Sefirath ha Omer (counting of grains from planting to first harvest). In the Torah portion for Succoth there are references to census taking.
It is reasonable to assume that if we accept G-d created us, and grains, and temporal spatial relations He doesn’t need us to mark dates, count days for agricultural tracking or advise Him how many of us there are.
It is more understandable that it helps us to focus on addressing the practical sides of life by planning our food growth. Those who fail to plan, plan to fail.
Planning when to celebrate High Holy Days universalizes the events, so no one misses out on the spiritual elevation of them
Most of all, we are commanded to take the census not because G-d needs a hand on knowing how many of us there are. Rather we do accounting because we count. People have individual and collective worth. We are who we actually are, and potentially can be. When we are reminded of our Divine potential (better selves) we can do Cheshbon Ha Nefesh (an accounting of our souls). We can be motivated to bring out our better selves by being reminded we have them, and that they matter.
None of that is literal or explicit in the text. All is derived from it.
The final Scriptural method we shall address here is Sod (secret meanings). Mystical works like Kabbalah (Zohar) deals heavily in these. Examples of mystical interpretations to uncover Chochmah Nestorah (hidden wisdom) are Gematria and direct mystical experiences.
In the Hebrew language written characters serve as letters and numbers. Gematria seeks to uncover hidden meanings by rearranging lettered words by number, and then transposing them back to letters for new words of hidden meaning. Likewise, numbers are shifted to words to glean meaning from them. To muddy the waters, with advances in computer science programs have been written to track vertical, horizontal and diagonal strings of letters and numbers from text pages to discover hidden meanings in them.
All of this may be valid. It also may be co-incidental. Another possibility is that the real wisdom is in the creativity of those doing Gematria to find what they seek using this method if it is there or not. There is not universal acceptance of this method. This is due to its lack of data yielded from it being consistent when different people use the same method and yield widely diverse results. That said, soft sciences like psychology, sociology, and anthropology are subject to the same criticism. Moreover, reductionist epistemological models rarely can inter-subjectively account for things we know to be true beyond physical, chemical and biological properties. This method is very ancient, yet still in its infancy. Time will reveal its validity or lack thereof.
Mystical personal experiences are hard for non-mystics like me to understand. Why? This is so because original human language trails inter-subjective human experience. The word, “buzz” to describe the sound of a flying bee only conveys meaning when more than one person hears the sound, and can use the word to convey an auditory experience more than one person had. The best communication with words is at the most basic physical level. We have trouble with abstract terms.
Consider the word freedom. In a collectivistic society, freedom is liberty from having to worry about practical matters. The government handles that. It is also freedom to work for something bigger than the individual. In an individualistic nation state, freedom means liberty from government intervention, and choice in how to live each life as the individual wishes. Often, when people use the same term and don’t mean the same thing by it words do more to hinder communication than promote it.
With mystical experiences a part of the problem is that the mystic is ahead of the power curve in having an experience, or set of experiences others have not encountered. There is not yet the vocabulary to convey those new and unique things. Trying to reduce this novelty to more concrete things is easily misleading.
Diagrams, strings of words, compounding of existing words we understand, and creating new words only for the transmission of these novel experiences are in order here. It is a process. The process is either helped or hindered when others do or do not find themselves attuned and able to undergo such experiences on their own.
Meta-language is necessary to share meta-physical experience. One set of things which is helpful is the use of common rituals and activities within a community of like-minded people. In religion that would be a community of wisdom and faith.
In science, daily new information is uncovered when equipment is used to unearth the existence of and data about things too far, near, large, small, bright, dim, loud, or faint for human senses to experience. Microscopes, telescopes, and other instruments help us to go beyond the limitation of our senses.
In Judaism we live a life following G-d’s laws, and the surrounding fence to protect them of Rabbinical laws, customs and traditions (Torah Moshe Mee Sinai, Mee Peh El; Torah sheh beh al Peh, Dinim veh Minhagim, Masoret, etc.). Living a Jewish life in all its individual and collective ways sensitizes us to be open to what is transcendent in our immanent realm.
Other religions have similar equipment in their traditions.
So do other communities of spirituality.
Interestingly, so do secular groups.
The concerns and experiences of people in and out of my religion are amazingly similar. The experiences are very close. The language in which they are conveyed is not. That is very culturally conditioned.
This is particularly true when providing end of life Pastoral care in hospice and palliative care settings.
What does your heritage, religious and or secular approach to life add to this discussion?
How do you interpret texts of great value to you and yours?
We all have something to teach and from which to learn with and from other.
We inch closer to the truth when we can pierce the veil of linguistic barriers.
The site rules, including but not limited to the code of conduct, Red Box Rules, and the Four B’s will be enforced.
Be On-Point.
Be Positive.
Be Respectful.
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We look forward to your constructive contribution from your own tradition, heritage and original thoughts on this narrowly defined but important topic.
Peace and Abundant Blessings to One and All.
Calbab and Enoch.
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What does your heritage, religious and or secular approach to life add to this discussion?
How do you interpret texts of great value to you and yours?
We all have something to teach and from which to learn with and from other.
We inch closer to the truth when we can pierce the veil of linguistic barriers.
The site rules, including but not limited to the code of conduct, Red Box Rules, and the Four B’s will be enforced.
Be On-Point.
Be Positive.
Be Respectful.
Or Be Gone!
HI, Calbab! HI, Enoch!
Both authors did a fantastic job at the joined-essay on how to read Scripture, and how to "dig deeper" into G-d's Word. Thank you both for your suggestions and wisdom. I do find myself having a hard time, most of the time, even understanding the "milk" without the Help of the Spirit. Yes, you are both correct in that words (Enoch's examples: Start, and Beginning) have different meanings, depending on the original languages and cultures of the writers. I have Study Bibles, and like to read the "blurbs" at the bottom of the pages to see the deeper meanings of some Scriptures or even some words. I should go back to having my Bible Dictionary handy when I read, too. Maybe the study guides Calbab suggested will help me finally understand Scripture "milk" so I may journey on to growth to Scripture "meat".
Thank you both for your information! And it's wondrous, again, how your points of view "match" each other, coming from different religions.
Blessings to you both!
Dear Friend Katpen: Jewish and Christian peoples have more in common than separates us.
Our good friend Calbab and I felt that this question of how to interpret large anthologies of subtle and complex material is one which peoples of many approaches, Sacred and Humanitarian alike must address.
It is a universal challenge.
We opine that it is for the the News Talkers to have the following.
First, intelligent, dispassionate, high level discourse as food for thought.
Second the opportunity for one and all of good intent to have a springboard for discussion.
A place where they can feel safe in sharing their views without concern about petty personal attacks, of having things important to them being disrespected.
Finally, a forum in which two mature adults can work together in peace and harmony for the greater good.
Not in spite of what we believe.
Rather by being true to what each holds dear because of it.
As ever, we are grateful for your sagacious contribution.
Katpen, you are the best!
Enoch.
Hello KatPen! What a real treat it is to read your thoughts! You're quite welcome, and I humbly thank you for your sharing. The references I posted are to use a metaphor, "Dynamite." Do, take hold of them. I am definitely impacted by this collection. Moreover, good bible study tools are priceless.
Doing this project with Enoch was everything I expected and more. Co-authoring is interesting, stimulating, and educational, if I may take the liberty to state it.
Any thoughts, questions on the article and its questions can take us 'miles.'
Blessings to you too!
Dear Friend Calbab: I so agree.
E.
So proud of both you and Enoch--not just for your individual wisdom(s), but the way you harmonized each other's thoughts and knowledge. Like you both blended together, saying almost the same exact things, but in sightly different ways.
Thank you both for the inspiration to dig out my Bible Dictionary and other references when I study the Word of G-d. I look forward to another co-authored essay. You two make a great team!
Dear Friend Katpen: Thank you kindly.
Smiles.
E.
You are welcome! And, I am encouraged by you, KatPen.
Dear Friends.
This is the first time Calbab and I collaborated on a joint writing venture.
As time permits, we promise it will not be our last.
It is a distinct honor, pleasure and deeply moving experience to co-author with a person of Calbab's intellect, knowledge, style, grace and dignity.
This is not at all an easy topic.
Calbab did us all proud in a wonderful exposition of an important full and rich tradition regarding it.
We are grateful.
We both look forward to learning and being inspired by your well considered responces.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
Wonderful article calbab and Enoch.
I always learn something about the Jewish and Christian religion when articles are this well presented.
As your aware I do not follow Judaism or Christianity but do follow the ancient religion of my people. Which is usually unlike either of your religions but over the years since I have known Enoch there are some strong similarities to my religion.
We do not have temple, churches, or icons to represent our beliefs. Nor do we attempt to spread our beliefs, much like the Jewish religion.
To us God is called the ''Great Mystery'', it has no gender nor color, it is the great mystery.
We have no set days of worship or a certain way to worship. It is up to each individual to establish their own time and way...There is no wrong time or way to do this.
What we do have is a caring for our people, and work together to try to reach a specific end to various things. A tribal belief so to speak.
Our ''documents'' or books are called the ''sacred scrolls of the midewiwin''...It is widely believed that Indian did or do not have a written language. This is false, our scrolls are written in ancient language of the Anishinaabe on birch bark scrolls. Some date back well over a thousand years. They are the guide by which we live and try to walk the ''red road''...
Thank you for this excellent article.
Dear Friend Kavika: We have indeed co-authored many articles.
Over 50 by my count over the years.
So much of value occurs when people like you, Raven Wing, Al-316, Calbab among many others and I work together in peace, harmony and fellowship.
All it takes is maturity to move mountains.
Thank you for a great synopsis of the Native Americans approach to these things.
We are indebted.
Peace and Abundant Blessings to One and All.
Enoch.
Wiki AKA Hebrew National and Annie always think that means that they will be getting extra treats.
Dear Friend Kavika: You are the best of all possible providers.
Good show, my dear friend and brother.
Enoch.
Thank you for your remarkable sharing. Kavika as you know, I 'listen' intensely to your words. I am impacted when you speak to me about your people. I sense your strength and inclusion of others often. Right now, I am learning from you, too. Sir, keep speaking. I will be open and listen. This is what it is all about! This is what it is All ABOUT!
Enoch has demonstrated inclusion by extending himself to me, and I responded with sincerity and all the goodness I have inside of me! Openness radiates from that which is truly available.
Peace and more sharing, my brother.
Thank you calbab, I too learn from you and Enoch. Sharing ones beliefs is a great way to open communications and learn from one another.
I don't know if your aware that Indian religions were outlawed by the U.S. government and it wasn't until 1978 under AIRFA (American Indian Religious Freedom Act) that once again we were allowed to celebrate our religion.
Shocking that with all the debates and so called religious freedom the U.S. government chose to outlaw our religions in the land of religious freedom.
That is one of the reasons that I'm interested in listening and learning what other religions have done to address this violation of our rights.
Perhaps another article with regard to this would be appropriate at some time.
Once again, wonderful article.
Kavika-- I, too, enjoy learning of your religion and culture and traditions. We have read how you and Enoch have shared how alike our religions are. We all have one Father no matter which name we give Him. We all worship, even though we may do so in different ways. We all try our hardest to share kindness, compassion, and understanding, and we all try to help others when we can. We are so much more alike, than different. (AND..... thanks to Calbab for showing us the Christian "way" of doing all of those things.)
Several years ago, I read about this Act and its granting of religious freedom/authorization of peyote for American Indian religious and ceremonial purposes. Moreover, in my library I have a book, "The True Path" Roy J. Mathew, M.D. 2001, who writes 'short-length' about the oppression brought about by Spanish and Catholic missionaries who got laws passed against American Indian religious and ceremonial uses of peyote. He goes on to point out a Judge Yale McFate of Arizona who overturned federal and states laws banning American Indians from using peyote in 1960. And, of course, there is the Act you listed in its time. Help me understand: Is this what you mean?
Yes, we do. I am "available" to listen and to share in.
Yes calbab that would be part of it. AIRFA was concentrated in three basis areas.
Give me time to have my morning coffee and I'll attempt to explain it in greater depth and the areas that it didn't cover and areas that were not enforced. Actually the act had no teeth as was more of a joint resolution than a law, this was addressed later in 1994.
Kona Koffee time.
Dear Friend and Brother Kavika: There is an ancient hymn, over 6,000 years of age whose lyrics are on point here.
"Henei mah tov, u'mah nayim. Shevit achim gam yachad".
"Behold, how good and nice it is to sit together as brothers".
This is what is going on in this article.
We are all brothers and sisters of the Great Spirit here.
It pleases the Holy One, Blessed Be that we all work together here to teach and learn. To help and be helped.
This is as good as it gets on line.
Peace and Abundant Blessings to US All.
Enoch.
Dear Friend Katpen: "Come, let us reason together". (Isaiah 1:18).
We better ourselves when we are as family.
Great contributions.
We are indebted.
Enoch.
Dear Friends, Treasured Writing Partners, and Brothers in Spirit Kavika and Calbab: Heinrich Graetz once wrote, " A nation which has witnessed the rise and decay of the most ancient empires ad which still continues to hold its place in the present day, deserves the closest attention". Mr. Graetz was writing about the Jewish People and Religion.
He could well have been writing about the Native American Nations, Christiandom, or any other of those of us who endures the test of time.
We all thrive under sometimes the most adverse of circumstances.
We stand for something.
That something keeps us going no matter what.
When we co-exist and are the better off for respecting one another there is peace, prosperity, and spiritual fulfillment available for one and all.
Each as the Spirit so moves us.
It brings a smile to the Divine Countenance when we who are all His children live together in respect and fellowship.
Onward and upward.
Enoch.
calbab, Enoch, here is an overview of AIRFA which covers many of the points you requested.
In reality, the banning of Naive America Religion goes back hundreds of years.
Perhaps the most notable is the Wovoka (Jack Wilson, Northern Paiute) and the Ghost Dance which was totally misunderstood by the government and outlawed which led to the ''Massacre at Wounded Knee''...
The American Indian Religious Freedom Act
Any careful examination of the religious freedom of American Indians, especially as it pertains to aboriginal religious practices, since the foundation of the United States in 1776 is uncomfortable for those who would like to believe that America has championed religious freedom. American Indian religious freedom has been at best ignored, and more often it has been actively suppressed. As a Christian nation-a concept which has been consistently upheld and supported by the Supreme Court-the United States has been compelled to give Indians the gift of Christianity as a part of its program of forced assimilation. By the 1970s, however, the winds of change began to blow across the political landscape.
One of the first steps in acknowledging American Indian religious freedom came in 1970 when Congress passed HR 471 which gave Blue Lake back to Taos Pueblo in New Mexico. The Blue Lake area, sacred to the people of Taos and used for ceremonies, had been a part of the Carson National Forest since 1906 and thus exclusive Indian use had been restricted. In signing the bill, President Richard Nixon noted the long history of Indian religious use of this site and said:
During the 1970s, there were many issues involving American Indian religious freedom: sacred sites, including respect for these sites and allowing Indian access to them; the religious rights of Indian inmates; the use of peyote (the religious issues here were cleverly concealed through the so-called war on drugs). During the 1970s, American Indian civil rights became more visible through the actions of organizations such as the National Congress of American Indians and the American Indian Movement and through actions such as the occupations of Wounded Knee in South Dakota, Moss Lake in New York, and other locations.
Following two decades of complaints by Indian leaders about the abuse of Indian religious and cultural rights, Congress finally passed the American Indian Religious Freedom Act (AIRFA) in 1978. AIRFA was designed to pro¬tect and preserve traditional religious practices, including access to sacred sites, the use and possession of sacred objects, and the freedom to worship through traditional ceremonies. The Act directed federal agencies to survey their rules and regulations and to try to accommodate the practice of Indian religions. AIRFA directed federal agencies to adopt land management policies which would be sensitive to tribal religious needs.
Section 2 of the Act states:
Under AIRFA, federal agencies were to formally consult with American Indian tribes regarding how proposed federal developments might harm sacred places. However, the law doesn’t provide an administrative mechanism for Indian communities to contest agency decisions on how to treat such places. Thus, grievances must be adjudicated in a court of law, a place which is often hostile toward Indian tribes. In other words, the Act was purely cosmetic. In the floor debate regarding the bill, Congressman Morris Udall had specifically stated that no major laws were being changed and no disruption of the existing state of affairs would take place.
A year later, the Task Force Report on the American Indian Religious Freedom Act (AIRFA) documented 522 infringements on Indian religious freedom. The report clearly demonstrated the need for AIRFA and the need for administrative changes in federal policy. Some federal agencies appear to be unaware of AIRFA while others engage in only superficial consultation with the tribes, more concerned about notifying the tribes of their decisions than in getting actual input from tribal leaders. The courts continue to rule against Indian religions and religious practices.
While AIRFA called for federal agencies to provide special accommodations for Indian spiritual practices, in 1981 the Forest Service denied a special use permit for Russell Means and other Lakotas which would have allowed them to establish Yellow Thunder Camp in the Black Hills National Forest. While several hundred camps had been established in the area, including many Christian church camps, none of the camps had been established by Indians. In the five years before the application, the Forest Service had received 61 special use applications and approved the 58 applications turned in by non-Indians and had denied the 3 applications by Indians. Ultimately, the Court of Appeals found in favor of the Forest Service.
The major legal challenge to AIRFA came with Lyng versus Northwest Indian Cemetery Protective Association . In this California case, members of the Yurok, Karok, and Tolowa tribes sought to halt the Forest Service from building a six-mile road near Chimney Rock and from authorizing logging in the surrounding area. These are areas which are important to the traditional religious practices of these tribes. Indian religious informants and the Forest Service’s own anthropologist concluded that the construction of a road through the area would destroy the very core of the religious beliefs. Forest Service anthropologist Dorothea Theodoratus recommended that no road be built in this area. Tribal religious leaders and elders testified that the proposed government road would slice through and devastate the pristine quality of lands and mountain peaks they regarded as sacred. Religious practitioners gathered plants and other natural resources to use in ceremonial activities while other tribal members regularly visited the sacred praying site. In their testimony, the tribal leaders outlined the burden imposed upon their religious freedom in accordance with the provisions of the AIRFA.
While the Forest Service initially argued that building the road would increase timber harvest in the area, stimulate employment, and provide recreational access to the area, the Forest Service during the trial admitted that timber could be harvested without the road, that there would not be any increased employment, and that the economic value of improved access is minimal.
The Supreme Court’s G-O Road Decision opinion written by Justice Sandra Day O’Connor found that Indian Religious rights were outweighed by society’s broader interest in destroying sacred sites for economic reasons, even when such reasons were speculative. The Court found that unless there was specific governmental intent to infringe upon a religion or the government’s actions coerced individuals to act contrary to their spiritual beliefs, then the First Amendment provided no protection for Indian peoples to practice traditional religions even against federal action that potentially could destroy Indian sacred sites.
With regard to any potential protection from AIRFA, the Court determined that because the tribes had not stated a requisite legal burden on those rights that they could not receive protection under the AIRFA.
By the 1990s, the Supreme Court in both Lyng and in Smith v Oregon , had made it clear that AIRFA was meaningless. In 1994, Congress amended the Act. According to the Amended Act:
According to the Amended Act, no federal lands are to be managed in a manner that undermines and frustrates a traditional Native American religion or religious practice.
In 1997, the Supreme Court overturned the Religious Freedom Restoration Act saying that Congress does not have the right to make laws protecting exercise of religion free from government interference.
Dear Brother and Friend Kavika: There is no controversy in saying that the way Native Americans have been treated in so many ways is despicable.
The deliberate attempt to eradicate Native American Religion and culture is but one of the sad ways in which Indigenous populations have been mistreated.
While we cannot undo the past, we can learn from it.
Remember it.
Insure past horrors are never again repeated.
Thank you for bringing this important point to our attention.
The value of advocacy is that the present and future need not be like the past, just because the past was as it was.
E.
Thank you for sharing this information and I will be re-reading once more today to ingest it. My initial thought simply goes: ignorance is bliss. I have only glanced the edges of the American Native Indian* past and present religious problems in this country. I can see clearly through this sharing, how being in a "majority" position as a Christian in the United States has left me apathetic to the plight of your people.
Kavika, this sharing is good for me. Thank you.
As a Christian, though having an advantage in memberships and visibility throughout our country, we still tend to see ourselves as "struggling" to inform ourselves, share with each other, and well, "be" Christian. It is an all-consuming lifestyle. I say that last from a positive position. We tend to not think about other groups vying for a spot among the "treetops" —that is one position, or we tend to be overprotected of Chrisitanity and methodical in denial of privileges and rights to other groups—a nasty position.
I see your story now. Since joining NewsTalkers, one of the interesting aspects for me is meeting you and Raven-Wing. In five plus years of social media activities, this is the closest I have come to interacting with your peoples and your stories and cultures. I applaud both your sharing and look forward to more, brother. If I may be allowed to call you so.
* Can you clarify for me the proper phrase, "American Native Indian" or Native American Indian" or something other. I would appreciate this simply advice. (-:
Yes I can. We are called many things, names used by the government who actually made the decisions. All are acceptable. American Indian, Native American, Native, Indigenous etc. Actually many of the tribe names are not the names that are accurate. For example my tribe the Anishinaabe are called Ojibwe and or Chippewa, one a French word the other English. Our true name is Anishinaabe and has been for thousands of years. This is also a frequent problem among many tribes.
In Canada Indians and Indian tribes are called ''First Nations''....All are acceptable.
Hope that helps.
Without a doubt niijii.
Thank you. I seem to remember back in early October we shared in a discussion, and you explained a similar point as expressed here. I will endeavor to remember it for good this time. (-:
Dear Friend Kavika: Thank you for illumination on this issue.
My personal position is that we should refer to others in whatever way(s) they prefer.
Same goes for greetings.
E.
Just don't call me late for dinner...
Kavika munching on a kosher winnebagel and a slice of cold Frizza.
Dear Brother Kavika: Me too.
Its frybread, three sisters stew with bear meat, sassafras tea and blueberry forward fruit salad.
Jay's Diner worst nightmare.
Real food!
E.
Kavika, is this saying American Indian religious freedoms are intact to today or removed since 1997?
It is still in effect calbab...It gets complicated but this act ''Religious Freedom Restoration Act'' is a different act, but it does overlap onto AIRFA.
Here is a link to more information on it..There are a couple of important court cases sighted in the link as well.
It's from wikipedia but it covers it's fairly well.
I certainly will take a look at it today, my brother!
The significant issues are Indian lands and religious practices (peyote). These are not easy issues for a sovereign nation atop a sovereign nation(s). My understanding is the religious use of peyote by Native Americans passed and remains in effect today (I researched its mention during the RFRA Hobby Lobby case several years ago). The perpetual usages of land and its control remains upsetting, is that right?
You are correct calbab.
These two statements from us, are striking to me. Because I may have once known and over the years forgotten just how faithful Jesus was to God, his father. My research produced a copyrighted graph by NavPress, which I am not allowed to shared without permission, that brilliantly illustrates how Jesus, while in ministry, never took his spiritual "eyes" off the objectives of his God, his father. The graph was justified in stating to my spirit that I should find meaning, purpose, and satisfaction in aligning my life with Jesus' objectives.
The last statement emphasized just how practical our faiths and systems have to be to persevere. Powerful revelations, indeed.
calbab and Enoch... Thank you both immensely for sharing your beliefs and knowledge with us. I feel richer and more knowledgeable for having read you words. While having been baptized, raised, and joined, at age 16, a christian, Protestant, (Methodist) church, my religious beliefs have changed, evolved and metamorphosed somewhat. Mine are now closer to those practiced by Kavika than those taught to me through practicing Christianity. Peace, awareness, and health to you both.
Sir, thank you. Share with us "at will," please. There is so much more out here, and to say. . . .
Dear Friend and Brother in Spirit Deepwater Don: The Baal Shem Tov (Master of the Good Name {G-d}) founded the modern Chassidic Movements.
He was known for showing up late for Services.
He would take long walks thorough the woods and commune with nature.
He did this in order to attune himself to standing before G-d when praying.
In order better to connect with the Source, he first needed to be at one with the natural creation.
In Talmud Bavli Meshechet Brachot Chamisha (The Babylonian Talmud, Book of Blessings, Part Five) there is precedent for this.
"Ain omdin la'hitpalell eleh matoch kovid rosh. Chassidim ha rishonim heu shoheen sha'ah echa u'mitpallelim, keday shakavnu la vam la avihem sheh bah shamayim".
"One does not stand to pray except by good intention. The first righteous ones would wait a full hour prior to prayer, in order to direct their hearts to the Heavenly Father".
However the Spirit moves you Don, "go with the flow".
If its maximally beneficial to you, that is your best way to go.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
Thank you, Bluestride: for the laugh and the link! I will look at that after I wake up to a brand-new day.
A list of Koans:
Dear Friend Bluestride: Thank you for your wonderful presentation of your journey here.
There is much to be learned from our brothers and sisters in spirit who practice Taoism, and Buddhism.
The most recent contributions to Buddhism came in the post Shintoist Nichirin sects of Buddhism following WW II in Japan. Risho Kosakai and Soka Gakai.
One summer at a minor league baseball game two counties westward, one of our group went to the concession stand between innings for a snack.
She is Buddhist.
When she ordered she pointed to a menu option on a hot dog sign listing selections from which to choose.
The vendor asked how many.
She replied, I am Buddhist. I am at one with everything.
Smiles.
Enoch.
Bluestride, this is interesting and different than what I am used to. I'll need time to get something from it. I appreciate this 'start.'
Hmm. That's wonderful. You got, what you needed. It what matters!
Dear Friend Bluestride: I concur with our good friend Calbab.
In His wisdom, G-d created us to be diverse in a series of ways.
However the Spirit moves is to the the good.
E Pluribus Unum.
From the many one.
In Eastern religious thought there are two ways of capturing this on point to our discussion.
The famous story of the blind Hindus.
They were brought before an elephant.
Being sightless, they never saw one.
Each was given to touch a part of the giant mammal.
One described the trunk.
Another the ear.
A third the tail.
A fourth a leg.
Another the midriff.
Each was correct in their description.
No one captured the full majesty of the animal.
So it is thought that each of us in this life can only relate to the part or aspect(s) of G-d we can experience and learn about from others.
Yet none of us will ever completely know the full glory of G-d in this life.
Kind of gives us something to which to look forward, right?
The second is from the Confusion tradition (Kung Fu Tzu).
It points out that the same one man may be called and related to as grandson, son, brother, cousin, nephew, uncle, father, husband, grandfather, neighbor etc.
It is not that any of these terms and manners of relation are wrong or right; better or worse.
Rather it is that each name and each relationship makes sense to one or some, and not to others.
Its all a matter of context.
Each must know the man in the way most appropriate for and to them.
Super post dear friend.
We are indebted.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
So rich and profound. I'd like to share a poem about these men written by John Goffrey Saxe:
THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT.
A HINDOO FABLE.
I.
II.
III.
IV.
And happening to take The squirming trunk within his hands, Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a snake!"V.
VI.
VII.
VIII.
Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though each was partly in the right, And all were in the wrong!
MORAL.
The disputants, I ween, Rail on in utter ignorance Of what each other mean, And prate about an Elephant Not one of them has seen!
Dear Friend Calbab: That's the one.
Good find.
Thanks.
E.
People, despite all our pimples, haunts, and pollutions are incredibly remarkable thinkers! *You're welcome, Enoch! It made me whimsical to read it. (-:
Dear Brother Calbab: Indeed we are.
We all need to do more of it.
E.
I took time this morning to reach back into a reservoir of great thinkers to locate an enlightened thought attributed to Buddha:
Once when the Buddha was in the forest with his disciples, he grabbed a hand full of leaves and asked his followers whether there were more leaves in his hand than on the ground. Unanimously, all of them said there were more leaves on the ground. The Buddha declared that the material to be taught and learned was represented by the leaves in his hand. But he acknowledged that there were many more truths as represented by the countless leaves on the forest floor.
— The True Path.Simply, well-put.
Dear Friend Calbab: Enlightened viewpoint expressed.
Thanks for sharing it.
We are indebted.
E.
Dear Friend and Mentor Enoch and Friend calbab....thank you very much for your wonderful enlightening and Spiritually uplifting article. It is both well written and well explained.In my youth I visited many various Christian churches, including Catholic, Pentecostal, and Protestant, as well as Buddhist and Jewish synagogues, in order to learn more about the various religious beliefs. I also had a Muslim family that lived next door to me for 2 years and I was able to gain insight into their religious beliefs as well. I found it a very enlightening experience that taught me a great deal about the various beliefs of the many different people who share our world.
I myself am Cherokee, and I practice the ancient religion of my Cherokee ancestors. It is a simple, Spiritual and pure belief. It is very similar to that of the Anishinaabe which Kavika has already explained. We do not have specific days to worship. Each family has their own way to worship the Supreme Being the Cherokee call Ye-Ho-Waah, or The Creator. There is no formal way to believe, everyone is allowed to believe in The Creator their own way, and no one can interfere with another's way of belief. In this way, Harmony among the Tribe is maintained. There are Sacred religious rituals and ceremonies conducted by the Shaman or Medicine Man or Woman of the Tribe.
Our religious beliefs are a major part of our daily lives, and we strive to live by the Virtues of our religious beliefs.
Again, thank you both for such a wonderful and inspiring article.
nv-wa-do-hi-ya-dv (Peace), and May you always walk softly on the earth. (smile)
Dear Friend, Sister in Spirit, and Treasured Writing Partner Raven Wing: Your acceptance of what works for others for them, desire to profit from knowing of their ways as a means to helping you best understand and alive by your own heritage is uniquely American, yet universal in its span and merit.
Americas Founding Fathers knew that after centuries of people in Europe killing each other in the name of the L-rd here in the new world we could do better.
George Washington famously wrote to a Jewish community in Newport, Rhode Island. "May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the goodwill of the other inhabitants, while everyone shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid".
You are right in the center of your Cherokee, American, and all great cultures, religions, humanitarian philosophies, and civilizations by your ability and desire to live together in peace and harmony.
As role models for how to conduct oneself on this site, and in all areas of life go, you stand tall among us.
Well done.
Enoch,
Dear Friend, Mentor and Spiritual Brother, your kind words truly humble me, and touch my heart and Spirit deeply. In learning the things that give value to others, be they political, religious, ethnic or way of life, that we can understand them better and grow in our own tolerance and acceptance that will lend itself to Harmony. I truly believe that even in today's world that seems to be so full of anger and lack of acceptance and tolerance in the differences of others, there are far more people who do wish to live in peace and Harmony with others. We just don't hear about them as much as those who vent their anger and lack of tolerance and acceptance of others.
Through our own writing projects together here on NT we have found that there truly is a lot more similarities than differences in our own religious beliefs than people might think. Both religious beliefs are hundreds, if not thousands, of years old, and the basics of each religion are very similar. And the most basic of the two are tolerance, acceptance and Harmony.
I have learned much from this great article co-written by you and calbab, and I am truly grateful for the wonderful and enlightening information provided by both of you.
Thank you very much Dear Friend and Mentor Enoch for your very kind words and for the opportunity to continue to grow and learn.
May the Creator Bless you of both and our families. (smile)
nv-wa-do-hi-ya-dv (Peace)
You are welcome, dear Raven Wing. I have been attracted to your calming spiritual words, as well as your firm resolve in discussions with others. Thank you for sharing your views on this article and often growing and improving my knowledge of that which I do not know about you and the Cherokee people. At times like this, I marvel.
We should share more and often.
Thank you for your kind words, calbab. I truly enjoy learning more about those who share NT, as it opens my mind to the similarities, and better understanding of the differences in the beliefs that bring joy and fulfillment to our own lives. It helps us to better understand each other and promotes more tolerance and acceptance of the differences in our views and beliefs.
There are those who talk the talk but do not walk the walk, and I stand against those who try to silence those whose views and/or beliefs are different than those of their own. The world is growing ever smaller, and we are exposed to differences of others from all walks of life and from all areas of the world. Of we do not learn to tolerate and accept the differences and look for the similarities in each other's views and beliefs, there can never be the kind of Harmony between people of all walks of life that there can be.
We are all Brothers and Sisters in the eyes of the Creator, and He loves not one more than the others of His children. We are all one, we are all connected. When we hurt another, we also hurt ourselves.
Many Blessings to you and your family. (smile)
nv-wa-do-hi-ya-dv (Peace)
Dear Friend, Sister in Spirit, and Treasured Co-Author Raven Wing: Warm cyber hug of respect and admiration for your wisdom, warmth and caring.
Perfectly expressed sentiments leading to a time of peace and universal benefit for all of the family of humanity.
E.
Dear Friends Calbab and Raven Wing: By all means do share and work together.
Co-author articles.
Have done so with you both.
I highly recommend the experience.
E.
Awesomely stated! Enoch spoke of "pragmatic value" the article:
Harmony is the pragmatic 'note' we should all search around ourselves for, when we come together in one gathering. Harmony is melodious, practical, and brings great value to its receivers. Peace, my Sister.
Thank you calbab. I look forward to our further discussions. (smile)
Dear Sister Raven Wing: We are all in this life together.
We are all related.
We are all children of the same Source.
We grow together when we go together.
E.
A metaphor is an implied comparison that identifies a word or phrase with something that it does not literally represent. New Testament writers communicate spiritual realities through means of earthly, empirically perceptible events, persons, or objects-what might best be described as living metaphors .
‘10:1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice . . . . 7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.”’ — John 10: 1- 9.
This is a written metaphor of a shepherd, sheep, sheep pen, gate, and door used to represent Jesus as the Shepherd and the Protector who guards and grants access to salvation (pasture) for anyone who places his or her faith in him.
Question: What truth does this imagery and metaphor stress about Jesus?
In this discussion about sharing, harmony, and inclusion - I consider it essential to point out a "peculiar" quality about Jesus that should not and probably could not be overlooked by the attentive reader of the article: The writer of the gospel, Apostle John, unequivocally stressed the unique state of Jesus—at least as it relates to his followers.
My point for bringing this out is not to divide our unity, or to induce disharmony on this magnificent gathering. It is a point emphasized in my faith, nevertheless. That said, it takes nothing of our sharing together away to comprehend and abide each other's philosophical approaches to life.
We are an exquisite tapestry suspended in freedom and equal importance, regardless of social standing, material blessing, or pecking order.
While the Cherokee did not have a "Holy Book" of laws, tenets or scriptures to go by, they had a firm belief in a Supreme being, a being above all other demi-gods or Spirits that guided their lives. But, they did have a very definite belief and traditions of how each of us should conduct our lives in order to be one with Ye-Ho-Waah, Mother Earth and Father Sky, as well as all living beings that share our world. Two of the guides of being a 'Good Man' and a 'Good Woman'. It defined how each should conduct their lives to achieve the favor of the Creator, as well as how to be a productive and effective member of the Tribe. There were no written rules or laws, simply the oral teachings of the Tribal Elders and Council. All members of the Tribe, men and women, were treated as equals, with no need for a social scale. Everyone shared in the bounty and the hard times. Thus, Harmony was maintained among the people.
What they had that held them together the most, was Faith.....in Ye-Ho-Waah, and themselves as a people.
Dear Friend, Sister in Spirit, and Treasured Writing Partner Raven Wing: Beautifully expressed summary of the Cherokee position.
An elegant viewpoint.
One completely compatible with all the other wisdom based heritages articulated here.
Thanks.
We are grateful.
E.
Thank you Dear Friend and Mentor Enoch. I believe that through sharing our different beliefs and heritages we can better understand one another, and through better understanding we can find most acceptance and tolerance of each other. (smile)
Dear Sister Raven Wing: As do I.
Smile.
E.
Thank you calbab. (smile)
Great article on an important subject.
Enoch is and has been my friend for a season or two, but Calbab you are new to me. After reading your input above and scanning your other articles, I want to be friends with you, too. Hence, I have sent you a friend request.
When I was young, somewhere between eight and eleven, I had an interest in G-d and the Bible. So, I picked up a King James Bible and started to read. Nothing made sense. No matter where in the Bible I looked, nothing made sense at all. Not even some of the words. I put it down. I had an awareness and appreciation of a Creator, but I let other people tell me what the Bible said.
The Bible, I think, is like a ball room packed full of hundreds and hundreds of people from many different countries, wearing different clothes, speaking different languages, some are male, some are female, some you can't tell, different heights, colors, weights, etc. When one enters through the front door all one can see is a impenetrable wall of confusion, sound and color.
(I am being called away and won't be able to continue my thought until sometime late tomorrow at the earliest. Sorry.)
Dear Friends Al-316 and Calbab: I strongly recommend you both get to know one another.
I find you both men of great faith, wisdom, knowledge, and humanity.
I know you will hit it off.
E.
AL-316, I accept your friendship. I am humble enough to wish for friends. Thank you. It matters to me to be a friend.
Sorry for the interruption. To continue:
But if you were to enter the ballroom via a balcony and gaze down into what first appeared to be mass of humanity, you would observe that there were clusters and groups of people. Some talking calmly, some animated in conversation, and some standing alone. You might even recognize some of the individuals or groups. And from this vantage point find where you would like to begin to mingle and to fit in.
The Bible, or any endeavor, can present a serious challenge to someone trying to navigate and understand anything new and unfamiliar.
You gentlemen have superbly presented invaluable techniques and methods tools and how best they can be applied.
Well done, my friends.
Al
Dear Brother Treasure Writing Partner and Very Close Friend Al-316: Scripture and its commentaries do indeed provide a lifetime road map where ever we may need to travel.
It also refreshes and soothes us when we need to rest.
Here is another use for it among so many.
Suppose we were to go to a national art gallery in the beltway area.
Let's posit that the artist whose works were on exhibit that week would be honored at a cocktail reception on the weekend.
If you and I, using the tools that honed the good gifts given us in the raw at birth went each day and interacted with all the artist had created.
Paintings, sculptures, musical works.
We let eh created entities speak to us.
We listened.
We had dialogical relations with them.
They touched and elevated us.
By appropriately, alertly, and creatively we learned from and about the creations, would we not be better prepared to know the nature of, and how best for each of us to relate to the artist who created them when the reception time came and we stood before the creator?
Scripture, in all its glory and varied ways of interpretation would both give us such knowledge, and equip us better to so interrelate with what is available to us here and now.
It would position us well when its our time to stand before the Creator of all.
What we do now pays big dividends later.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
UPDATED:
__________________________________
Why? Because all paragraphing in original or translated versions is a judgement call and wasn't in the original manuscripts, it is best to defer to the original language experts, who are the best judges of the units of thought in the biblical text. — Playing With Fire, Walt Russell.
Good day! Of course, there is a recent saying which goes: 'The best bible is the one you read!'
Dear Friend, Brother and Treasured Writing Partner Calbab: True enough.
The word of G-d brings peace, and so much more.
As our friends in the Hispanic community say, "Via con Dios".
"Go with G-d".
E.
Dear Calbab and Enoch-- Great article! VERY thought provoking and yet, in some ways, so straight forward.
I need to think on all of this before I attempt to make an intelligent reply, as I find my brain descending into cliches and a muddle of thoughts. I'll be back!
Love to you both!
Dear Friend Dowser: Much love to you and yours.
We await your wisdom, warmth, humanity and caring.
We have much to learn from you.
We look forward to so doing.
Enoch.
Love to you and yours, Dowser! Looking forward to your return!
Hi Calbab and Enoch,
First of all, nice to finally meet you Calbab. Sometimes I get to caught up in the running of NT, to take the time and smell the roses, so to speak. And to Enoch, hello old friend.
This is a difficult subject for me. I was raised in two traditions, and although I enjoy the cultural aspects of each, I am not so sure I am on board with the actual texts. I do realize that the Torah/Old Testament is supposed to not be taken literally, but I am not sure if it had divine or was the work of men who knew that humans needed law and order, and a supreme being would put the fear of god into them. Now I am open to the fact that I could be wrong, but that is a whole different discussion. In any event, I do agree that one needs to read the Torah/Old Testament differently, than the NT, and that it does have value, especially when viewed in conjunction of the Talmud, which I find more interesting, since it is discussion about what the texts mean. I think that is where the bread and butter lies.
The New Testament, which is really 4 testaments, I find interesting because it takes the events of Jesus' life and picks out what is most valuable to the writer, Obviously, I think that Matthew is probably the most reliable when it comes Jesus' actual life having been written 50-60 years after his death. And there has been much speculation that there are many other testaments that the Catholic Church has kept, that might shed more light on his life. Obviously, since the NT is about Jesus' life and teachings, the take away, is what he preached and there is no denying that he tried to get the message out to be good people. I think when people look for meaning beyond his own words, is when we run into problems.
I think that most faiths and non faiths (i.e. ethical humanism), say pretty much the same thing.. be good people. What is different are the ceremonies that surround the traditions of each faith. For me, I enjoy those the most.
Hello Perrie! It is a rich pleasure to meet you on the 'plains' of NT! Thank you for the warm words! This is a worthy institution you have established and hold; and, I know this as one experienced with other pleasing establishments.
Can you elaborate on your words in bold above, please? (Smile)
Hi Calbab,
Yes nice to formally meet you, too.
Sorry it took me so long to reply back. Often the day gets away from me, dealing with nuts and bolts of the site and life in general.
I recently was reading some interpretations of Matthew, which I always found the most straightforward of the testaments. Take this verse for instance:
I think that this is pretty straight forward. You get what you give. If you give mercy, somewhere along the way you will get some and that way, you pay if forward.
But I have read a whole variety of interpretations of this, that I find it astounding. Here are a few:
OK, huh? Maybe Jesus just meant what he said?
I can see your point!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Jesus, the Messiah, the embodiment, unique evidence, of God in the Earth gave a sermon. God sat on a mountainside and delivered:
Matthew 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy."
And, the Messiah continued in positive teaching until this negative statement:
Matthew 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Imagine you are there sitting on the mountainside to hear the Messiah rebuke the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees in his first outing for a lack of mercy, among their list of shortcomings.
You might find it interesting that this was not particularly unique during that period. There were 3 competing schools of thought, and the Pharisees had made their own oral law, that the other two sects denied.
You might find this interesting reading:
Interesting indeed! You link is a 'keeper.' This is precisely what I wanted for myself: More positive, free-flowing discussion between disciplines. Then, Jesus brought about a new sect.
Dear Friend Perrie: Thanks for taking time off to come visit us and this article.
We both know how busy you are with all that goes on at news talkers.
This in addition to all occurring in your real time life.
We are grateful to you for gracing us with your presence.
Tanach (an acronym for Torah, Nevi'im and Ketubim - Divine Law, Prophetic Ethics, and all other writings included prior to the canonization of Hebrew and Aramaic Scripture at the Council of Yamniah (Jamniah) in 70 BCE is the correct name for primary source Jewish Scripture.
Talmud Bavli and Talmud Yerushalmi are the second through fourth levels of commentary on this anthology.
Talmud from the verb Le lamed or to study.
You are correct in observing that we do not only interpret our Scripture in only a literal fashion.
Scripture is a dynamic, vibrant, vital collection of writing which serve to guide all Jewish People for all times in all places, under all circumstances.
As such it cannot read like a car repair manual.
Metaphysics goes beyond physics.
It needs to be conveyed in the meta language.
That entails abstractions, transcendence, a priori, rational, deductive revealed as well as concrete, immanent, a posteriori, inductive, and empirical issues and methods.
It is not possible to do all that with just one type of interpretation.
What ever methods we take with ascertaining the truth as is relevant to each of us in our own time place and situation our epistemological model needs to go beyond only literal interpretation.
This is also true for using only a reductionist epistemological model.
In the American tradition of pragmatism, what ever works best for each of us, if it brings out our best side it is the most appropriate for us.
Doing more good than evil, more help than harm, leaving the world a better place for us having been here is a taller order than it seems at first glance.
It is never the less a most worthy goal.
We thank you for sharing you view.
For being so generous with your scant free time to come and participate.
You are most welcome in each of our, and in our joint writing ventures.
Calbab and I, as many others here want to create safe havens where people can attend.
A space where adults can be free to read, think, share, speak their mind without a personal attack.
This is what differentiates vast waste lands from the fertile fields of an Ideological Ggarden of Eden in discussion threads.
We are pleased you came to our Scriptural Orchard.
Peace and Abundant Blessings to You and Yours Always.
Enoch.
Good Evening Enoch,
I am very happy to provide a place for these kinds of discussions. I think that no matter what path a person takes, as long as it gets them to being a good person, what could be bad?
I am always surprised when people take the Torah/ NT literally. First of all, a there is a lot of law in there, and the rest is parable. What kind of god would make a bet over someone's faithfulness? There has to be another meaning.. and even Jesus would have known about the Jewish tradition of looking deeper into the words written in his faith, since it is demonstrated in the Haggadah, which is used for the Passover service aka.. the Last Supper.
There is a discussion on how to calculate the plagues that was put upon the Egyptians. Fingers verse hands.. or whether the number is arrived by with a strong hand or an outstretched arm.. etc.
It is all to stretch the mind, so to speak.
So whenever I see people taking the Torah/NT literally I just shake my head.
Even if people are right that these are words of men with pens, they definitely didn't it literally read.. and if it had a divine spark, even more so.
Well, at least that is what I think..
Dear Friend Perrie: Calbab and I are most pleased with the maturity, sincerity and fellowship shown by posters here.
As regards the specific point of tests, kindly see that covered in 22.1, my post to our good friend Al-316.
Most will agree with you Calbab other posters here and me.
Scripture is not, for the most part technical writing.
Scripture, as all in the humanities is not written to be the same as an automotive repair manual.
In all languages, in all non technical writings there are literary devices to make points not best made by following lists of steps.
We concur with your valuable point on TaNaCh and Christian Scripture, among others.
We want our discussion threads to be a safe haven.
We want people to be able to feel free and encouraged to express their original and heritage ideas.
That is the whole point of having the Four B's.
To protect the sincere.
It mattes not to us what position they take on the topic at hand.
We are mature and comfortable enough in our own skins to allow for diversity of viewpoints.
Personally, I welcome them.
What we find in metaphysics, we find first in the physical world.
It shows up slightly differently.
It needs meta rather than physical only language.
It is there.
Let's start with the physical level on diversity.
Bio-diversity helps insure the survival of a genus and species.
Minor environmental changes can make a maladaptive species extinct in a NY minute.
Having diversity keeps things relevant and possible.
We Jewish people feel it ungracious not to wish others the same great things we enjoy with what we do for them in what they do.
We sincerely do hope they get all they can from theirs.
Many thanks for coming here.
We know your time is scarce.
We are grateful.
You are always welcome in our and my discussion threads.
We want you as others to attend, contribute and enjoy a respite from the tugs of war going on elsewhere in the site.
Entering a place of peace and warmth is a good change of pace.
It will fortify you for the other things you must Moderate.
Peace and Abundant Blessings to You and Yours Always.
Enoch.
Enoch,
It is very true that I enjoy coming in here. I enjoy the topic and I don't have to feel that people are judging me. For that I thank you, since both you and Calbab provided this. I thank you
This is something I can agree with on both a metaphysical and the actual. Without the various religious traditions life might not be as rich. Without biodiversity, human would not exist. One feeds the soul, the other life itself.
Yet both are highly debated. Those who believe and those who do not.
So there is a connection.
Dear Friend Perrie: Wisely and beautifully said.
If two sides always agree 100% on everything, one would not be needed.
The back and forth of looking at issues is part and parcel of the humanities.
Out of this tussle comes options from which to choose.
This includes ones not presented by wither side.
Read G. W. F. Hegel on dialetic.
Thesis. Antithesis. Synthesis.
Duration and sustainability of schools of thought and action show which best address human needs.
I welcome the rainbow of ways to approach difficult and subtle problems.
When I taught at the top academic university in the Big Ten during the late 1960's and early 1070's we used to take a team approach.
We would partner so we could cover one another's classes for a variety of reason.
Sometimes we would co-lecture.
We wanted the student s to have exposure to more than one way of viewing things.
My principal partner was Sister Ruth.
A member of a teaching order of Nuns from a large city in a nearby state, she and I were heads and tails fo the same coin in many ways.
That is what gave out team approach its value.
Is there any worth to a coin with two identical heads or tails?
It is important to advocate as best one can.
When its all over, the acid test of the merit of positions is how well or poorly varying sides respect and successfully relate to one another.
When doctrine divides, it is neither attractive or compelling.
Great points raised in your contributions to our good friend Calbab and me.
We are grateful.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
I certainly am grateful for Perrie's sharing! It is awesome!
Well, here goes...
I'm not personally fond of bible study classes, such as those found in most churches, because I think they're biased towards the viewpoint of the church-- not necessarily what the author was trying to say. Yet, if I were to take a class, it would be on the New Testament, as opposed to the Old Testament. I'm much happier with Jesus' version of God than some of the OT testament's version. I mean NO insult to anyone when I say that.
That being said, I do love most of the psalms and the poetry and the bible stories. Not that I believe that all of them are factual, but allegorical, and even as historical chronicles. I do feel there is a lot to be learned from the OT, but you have to be careful...
My very favorite bible chapter is Corinthians 13, about love. Every time I read it, I think of my grandparents, and feel their love, past the grave. My grandparents had a wonderful old house, 4 stories, if you include the attic, with an interesting roof, one with gables, and flatter spots, and peaks, and from the inside it was a fabulous place to explore. I was allowed up there as long as I didn't tear anything up, and my grandparents trusted me to be good. I loved them so much, I would have died rather than disappoint them, so I was good! The attic was filled with the flotsam and jetsam of life since the 1940s, and included goodies from their parents, etc., who passed away in the 1940s. Most of this stuff now lives at my house, or in storage, or is still in my mother's house, awaiting rescue.
There were trunks of old clothes from the 1890s, (and later), Aunt Belle's dress and mink theater jacket from the 20s, furniture, hundreds of old books, paintings, ornate picture frames, treasures from my 4 greats grandfather-- the original settler of us all in KY, a Shirley Temple baby carriage, Eliza Francis' toys, 10,001 neat things, and a plethora of old mirrors. Don't ask me, but my family seemed to like mirrors. Maybe we were all narcissists, and liked to look at ourselves, or maybe it was just the thing back then. Almost all of them were old enough that some of the silver backing was flaking off, so what you would see is you, with your head and legs vanishing slowly into darkness. I would be up there, rooting around, and suddenly stumble upon someone else. Then, I would realize it was me, after all, and that I was safe.
That personifies my grandparent's house. Something may look scary, but at their house, I was safe. They knew about love and were adults. There was a distinct lack of adulthood at my house-- between my narcissistic mother and my alcoholic father, I was scrambling to survive. But at Grandpa and Grandma's house, I was safe. I was trusted. Their love was patient and kind. Their love filled me with joy, and gave me a secure footing in a very insecure world.
So, when I read:
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
I think of those old mirrors, and how, eventually, we'll see what is important clearly, and we'll see who and what matters, and we'll know the secrets of the universe, the key to life, and everything we question about.
I don't know that I could share these thoughts anywhere but here, with my friends. Certainly not in a bible study class, which I have found to be very biased and judgemental. I'm odd, and that doesn't sit well with those that wish us to parrot a certain viewpoint...
Love to you both. I had to really think about this, and I hope that I stayed on topic...
Dear Friend Dowser: We encourage people to share what works for them.
You did just fine.
You are always welcome here.
In my and our discussion threads, there are no litmus tests.
There is no coercion.
There is not a "company line".
There is a free flow of ideas, values, experiences in a relaxed atmosphere of fellowship, respect, positive expression, thoughtfulness, learning, teaching, helping and being helped.
We are grateful for your providing what works for you and why.
My very best to you and yours.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
Dear Enoch, if you ever need another spiritual moment, I still have all those old mirrors, fading as they may be... I will share them with you!
MUCH love to you!
Dear Friend Dowser: We are on.
I look forward to it.
Enoch.
P.S. When you need a respite from the rough and tumble you face as a Moderator, always come to the discussion threads my writing partners and I created and conduct.
This is the site refuge, the safe haven.
E.
And a haven it is!
Dear Friend Dowser: Succat Shlomecha.
(Peaceful Dwelling).
From the prayer Mah Tovu (How goodly it is to dwell in thy house.
Smiles.
E.
As with mirrors, your words are a reflection of the wonderfully, sweet, kind and loving Dowser that I have come to love as a Sister of my heart. Your heart is pure and your words speak of both the love and sadness you have experienced in your life. Both have made you the kind, gentle and caring person you are. You have made your Grandparents proud and I am sure they are smiling from above from the person their unconditional love has helped you become. (smile)
Much love to you my sweet Sister. {{{{{Dowser}}}}}
Dear Sister Raven Wing: Wonderfully said.
E.
I can only say thank you! I miss them so much! They were special and very dear! I only hope I can be like them...
Hello Dowser. I read your warm and important memories, and I want you to know you have added something essential to this place: Some history, a message, an a caring soul. Dowser, this is swell. A delightful gathering out in the open. An important condition for me going forward in my virtual life will be developing an equal part of listening as much as sharing. I welcome you, your ideas, and your life narratives with grateful arms. We will discuss more, and soon. (Smile.)
I can only say thank you, and hope to see you soon!
And I show you a still more excellent way. . . the greatest of these is love. Love never fails, and God is love.
I have always considered the Bible, in its entirety, to be G-ds word. Realizing the Old Testament has special meaning to some people and others feel the New Testament is more important. My opinion is that together, the old and the new, complement one another and give a more complete answer to the question: Who is G-d?
In my untrained way, I have concluded that the Bible uses many examples and illustrations to help the reader understand on a personal level who G-d is: His capabilities, His moods, His likes and dislikes, what makes Him angry, what pleases Him, what He won't tolerate, and what He expects from us. All the answers are there.
It is my favorite book.
Dear Brother, Friend and Treasured Writing Partner Al-316: Said with grace style and panache!
I join and salute you in having Scripture the preferred reading for its uplifting and inspirational value.
What brings out the best in us deserves a special seat at the table of intellectual, and spiritual activity.
Peace and Abundant Blessings to You and Yours Always.
Enoch.
After reading some of the comments on this thread, I feel a need to express my personal emotions:
Thank-you. Peace and love to all, puppy dogs and fluffy little kittens, and bunny rabbits!
Dear Friend Lennylynx: Thank you for gracing us with your attendance and participation.
We are always please to see glad tidings.
Let me guess.
Your favorite Saint is Francis of Assissi?
Rabbi Pinchas Elieazar Teitz perchance?
Whoever moved you is a good role model.
We are at our best when we care most for the least of us.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
Peace and love to you Enoch, and all praise to our loving God and creator. Let us pray together and try to understand why our loving and all powerful creator allowed that 8-year-old boy to be tortured to death for months on end. I'm sure it is all part of His good and loving plan for all of us!
Seriously though, I've read the bible, all of it. It is chock full of false history and ludicrous nonsense from cover to cover. The god it describes is a psychopathic mass murderer who makes Hitler look like a pussycat. God belief is divisive, it pits groups of people against each other, fuels wars, and promotes the dangerous idea that death is not the end. This idea devalues the life that we do have and is the sole motivation of suicide attackers. I'm all for the good and moral lessons Jesus taught, but the average atheist leads a far more Christ-like life than the average Christian in my experience. Morality does not depend on superstitious beliefs.
Off to work now, I'm a carpenter just like Joseph! Peace and love to you, Enoch, and I really mean it this time. God belief is not required for one to be a loving, kind, and peaceful person, and faith is not required to believe what is true. Talk to you later.
Dear Friend Lennylynx: I concur that people who follow any religion or spiritual path do not have a monopoly on being ethical, kind, and other virtues.
To say such is to ignore facts.
Some of things things I think bother you about religion and spiritual apporaches to life bother me too.
So do some of the secular aspects to approaching life.
There is no one size which fits all.
In Yiddish, we have a syaing.
"Alles en einem, nicht taw bawh kainem".
"No one speaks for everybody".
I choose not to let imperfections in any theology, theosophy or such interfere with the G-d centered life I choose to follow.
It has served me well as one who is proudly an Orthodox Rabbi with three Rabbinical Ordinations (Yoreh Yoreh, Dyan Dyan and Maggid) and a Doctor of Divinity degree.
I have seen all the good achieved for humanity by religious, spiritual and secular humanitarian activities.
Also witnessed were some very vicious acts, including physical and speech acts.
My take opn this is to do all the good I can.
To abstain from hurt.
To muck in and help when and how asked, respecting the value systems and methodologies of the one(s) seeking support.
The world improves one good deed at a time (Tikun Olam).
That is me.
I should be true to me.
Who better?
You should be true to you.
Who better?
Whatever path you follow in life, I do sincerely wish you well with it.
Thank you for visiting and sharing.
You are most welcome to come, read and contribute good friend.
Peace and Abundant Blessings to You and Yours Always.
Enoch.
I agree. We all awaken to these imperfect bodies with their "automations" - and dependencies - and needs. . . -and - then have shared social, cultural, mores attached to each of us. Unless, we decide to live as an outlaw (without law). For most of us, the foremost thing is to get my attitudes right, and having done so, then to move on to helping others perchance with their attitudes.
Dear Friend, Brother and Treasured Writing Partner Calbab: Bullseye!
One of the most influential two volume works I ever delighted in reading is the Classic Havoth Ha Levavoth (Duties of the Heart ) by 11th century Spanish theologian and philosopher from Zaragoza, Spain Rabbi Bachya ben Yosef ibn Pekudah.
Performing only the duties of the limb is necessary, but not sufficient for leading an ethical life.
Having a good intention carries us over the finish line.
He uses "Cavanah Tovah - Aramaic for good intention).
Originally it is found in Talmud Bavli - Babylonian Talmud, in the Book of Blessings (Mesechet Brachot): Coved Rosh {Hebrew for an honorable head}.
The right intention or attitude will steer us beyond the mechanical discharge of obligation so we were not two faced in between limb (time related and prescribed ceremonial and obligation) duties.
Great point Calbab.
I hope this site knows what a gem we are blessed with in you.
You contribute so much, and do it so well.
Good on you!
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
The truth is, no one has ever spoke or wrote to us explaining that what we see in ourselves and others is the best which can be hoped. God can cope. This whole earth groans and reels from its travails accompanying life teeming every which away within it. With the planet's suffering as context, a basic question could be:
Why not ME?
Why not YOU?
Why not HIM?
Why not HER?
Dear Friend Calbab: Here is another question series approach.
What is the problem?
How can we fix it?
There is an instructive story for those grappling with the problem of evil.
For those readers not familiar, the problem of evil theologically is this.
We believe G-d is all powerful, all good, and all compassionate.
Why there is there evil?
Why does G-d not simply do away with it?
Why was it allowed in the first place?
The story goes this way.
A seminarian is praying, as seminarians will do.
He prays for understanding.
He doesn't question or doubt G-d.
He just seeks better to understand the order of the world, so he can best function in it.
In his prayer, he muses on the problem of evil.
He beseeches G-d to grant him an understanding of why the Almighty does nothing about it.
The heavens turn dark.
Thunder rumbles.
Lighting splits the sky.
A great magnificent voice, that of the Creator addresses him.
G-d says, "I did do something to counter evil.
I sent you and others like you to address and overcome it.
You best serve Me by helping others make evil triumph over good.
Get busy"!
The point is those of us who believe should reflect our beliefs in what we do.
What we do is best done to advance the Kingdom of the Holy One, Blessed Be while we can.
If only everyone who ever lives, lives and shall live leaves this level of existence evenly mildly better than it was prior to their time, what a wonderful world this would and shall be.
"Zman lahitpalell.
Zman Lilmod.
U'zman la'asot".
"There is a time to pray, to study; and a time to act".
We know who truly believes by how that is reflected in their actions.
Peace, Abundant Blessings and Righteous Acts.
Enoch.
Who are the stewards of the Earth anyway? Is it easier to harness and control the power of the atom, and harder to refrain from torturing a human being to death?
Dear Friend Calbab: Good switcheroo.
E.
I mentioned earlier that I believe the Bible contains all the answers and that the answers are not always explicitly stated, but are sometimes conveyed via examples and illustrations.
Not to be disrespectful to G-d or to be overly simplistic, but I have concluded that G-d created man because G-d wants and needs to be loved, respected, recognized for who He is. He wants that love, respect, and recognition to be freely offered to Him, not purchased or coerced. It is no more complicated then that.
So when He created man, He imbued us with free will and created for us a beautiful environment in which we could live and flourish. The Old Testament is full of examples of how man exercised his free will, not all of which pleased G-d. G-d, still trying to fulfill His original objective intervened on numerous occasions trying to redirect us to the path He desired for us, all the while becoming more and more frustrated with us to the point of coming close to giving up on us completely.
But G-d did not give up and eventually noticed Abram (Abraham) and began to focus on him to achieve His objectives. Free will is a wonderful thing. Not everyone was inclined to exercise their free will in the pursuit of worshipping G-d, when there were so many opportunities to pursue other goals.
I think this is why the word "love" is emphasized so often in the Bible. G-d basically wants us to love Him and each other. It sounds easy enough to do, but when free will is involved some people choose other forms of pleasure and gratification.
A question was raised earlier about how could G-d allow an innocent child to be harmed and killed. I think the correct question should be how can humans do this to one another? G-d gave us free will and this is how we exercise it.
I cannot cite any references to prove what I believe. It is just my personal conclusion from processing all of the material I was able to study.
Al
Dear Friend, Brother, and Treasured Writing Partner Al-316: Be it the Akidah (Binding of Isaac) or a Baptism of Fire, we are all at times given to pass tests of faith and fidelity to the Holy One, Blessed Be.
This is not to illuminate G-d about what our response will be.
G-d is omniscient (all knowing). He already knows what we will choose to do prior to our making that decision.
Foreknowledge doesn't negate free will.
The function of having us tested is the same as the function of having Commandments (laws, customs, traditions which we must follow).
They are yard stick by which we can measure ourselves.
They are diagnostic tools.
They tell us what we do right.
That way we can know and lead with our strengths.
They also point out our shortcomings.
We can either correct the, if possible, or at least devise and implement strategies to keep them from getting in the way of bringing out our better nature and actions.
Why doesn't foreknowledge negate free will?
Image yourself on the tar mat of a runway at the Reagan National Airport.
The landing take off strip is an extended line of paved asphalt.
You look out the window.
What is behind the air ship, if the tar mat were a time line would be past.
You already traveled it.
Where you are is present.
As your craft taxi's where you are the is the here and now.
That part of the take off strip you will transverse to go wheels up is the future.
Bound by the earth, time for us is tripartite. Past, present future.
As the pilot makes judgements about when to take off and how, there are decisions in his present.
Now posit that you are breaking cloud cover in your descent to the flying to Jay's Diner for a Thanksgiving Turkey Dinner International Airport.
As you get closer to the ground you see the landing strip in its entirety.
There is no past, present and future.
You see it all from above.
You also see what is before and what comes after the strip.
All in one view.
This does not negate the free will of the pilot on second to second judgment calls in taking the airplane off the ground.
Time looks different to us on the ground than it does to G-d who came before and will remain after time was crated by Him, and will play out.
Time like space is a relational entity between things created.
Our Creator is above all that.
It came from Him.
We, not He is bound by it.
As regards free will and senseless suffering, not all we endure in this life is the result of human free will.
Natural disasters and animal mauling attacks are not human induced.
They can be amplified by humans.
Nature will still be nature.
This leads us to the problem of evil, of human or non human origin.
I think the answer to the question of why G-d, who can prevent evil from happening in the first place allows it.
I observe you already know the answer from earlier in your perceptive post.
The problem is not that G-d has limitations.
He does not.
We are tested for reasons previously stated.
To learn, to prepare ourselves to bring out the best in us.
Why do grandparents, parents, children, immediate and extended family, friends, and communities of all sizes and types remain in relationships appropriate to them?
Because we never disappoint, or are never let down by and to others?
Not hardly!
We remain in marriages, families, friendships, and groups because we assess we are better off in than out of them.
We work hard to make relationships work out of enlightened self interest.
This is what G-d, in His infinite wisdom asks of us in our relationship with Him.
That we go the extra mile to make things work cosmically, so we will know how to make things work in our mundane lives.
The problem of evil is yet another test.
It will help us in non-Divine human situations.
It will give us tools, strategies, and the self confidence to best use them for the greater good of all, us included.
El Ma'aleh Rachamim. G-d is filled with mercy.
It doesn't always seem that way to us now, on the tar mats of life.
G-d sees what we don't and cannot.
Having confidence and drawing ourselves closer to G-d by the Holy Acts of Service to others, the environment and all in it ourselves included.
This is our Akidah, Baptism of Fire, Temptation in the Wilderness etc.
Do we can enough to do what we must, even in Job like trials to remain faithful to G-d?
For you, Calbab so many others and me the answer is a resounding yes!
Note that all this exegesis and theosophy cannot have its meaning conveys only by literal interpretation.
Here as in Scripture, use all the tools available to do all the good you can for all who want it.
Super post Al.
"Ya done good"!.
Peace, Abundant Blessings (and Many Many Celestial Frequent Flyer Miles).
Enoch.
Hi Enoch, this a very good post indeed! I would suggest that since life and death are polar opposites. Once we can come to a well-developed understanding of why it is needful to be born and "grow-up," it can explain why we must grow old and end.
Dear Friend, Brother and Treasured Writing Partner CalBab: You raise a very good point.
Paul Tillich, a Protestant Theologian who was in the same line of thought as the Apostle Paul, Martin Luther and others in this manner addresses this topic in a very erudite and wise way.
You may want to invest the time to read his master work, The Ground of Being.
It isn't easy light fare.
It is worth the effort.
Thanks for raising this important topic.
Gratefully,
Enoch.
Thank you for sharing a good book. I will definitely look for it so as to look into it!
You are most welcome.
Particularly you.
E.
Enoch, my wise and learned friend, please don't think for a moment that I don't attribute G-d with the ability to know all, including future events. That quality is reflected numerous times in the Bible.
What I observe though, is G-d displaying surprise, disappointment, anger, pain, a willingness to reconsider His initial plans, and other emotions which we possess.
Perhaps, I am absorbing the Scriptures too literarily. I tend to be a literal person. I also tend to be purpose driven and try to be logical. My logic is not perfect and I continue to learn something new every day.
I am sure that Jay has something on his menu that would render our musings amusing.
Dear Friend Al-316: I never thought any such thing.
I merely address what is written.
Do my best of convey something of value.
Please never change how you interpret Scripture.
That is part of what makes you yourself.
None better I can imagine.
I find that imitating the positive attributes of the Divine makes strong sense.
Who better as a role model in religion than G-d?
The negative aspects I don't opine we should follow.
For example, G-d is the Master of His anger. It never masters Him.
That isn't our human situation.
Staying positive works best for me.
E.
Dear Brother Calbab: It seems Grundlagen and die Religiose Lage der Gegenwart were never translated into English.
Try these in our native tongue by Paul Tillich.
The Courage to Be
The Shaking of the Foundations (Collected Sermons)
Systematic Theology (Three Volume Set)
E.
Al, there are dictionary terms for this type of treatment of God. This above all remember, God is Spirit. Except in the case of Jesus*, God has no need of physicality to our knowledge. The characteristics ascribed to God are how man(kind) express that which is ineffable (not easily put into words). For example, we have no reason to suspect that God has limbs, or eye sockets, or genuinely weeps. These are figures of speech (metaphors) used to convey deeper truths beyond human description.
* Hebrews 10:
5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
But a body You have prepared for Me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’”
—New American Standard Bible.
1. Anthropomorphism. The attribution of human form to God.
2. Anthropopathism. The attribution of human feelings, passions, emotions and suffering to God.
I hope this helps. More can be said and should be. Just ask if you wish. It is all part of this interpretation discussion proper.
I thought I recognized Mr. Tillich's name. I have book synopses of his theology and philosophy worldviews.
Dear Brother Calbab: Mr. Tillich is a noteworthy Protestant Ontological Theologian.
I think you will enjoy his writings.
E.
Al, I have read your message and agree with you! You have so much to 'chew' on there. I spent the better part of my AM thinking about your comment! I will share some thoughts I have with you going forward on the points you brought up and delivered. Thank you, my brother!
John 15:
1 “ I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “ Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 “These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13 “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14 “You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 “This I command you, that you love one another.
_______________________________________________________________
God has a spiritual plan. The father of Jesus has a plan. The son of God shared a partial portion of that plan with his disciples. The friends of the son who continue to keep the message alive today in the Earth long after Jesus' departure, by doing so "glorify," that is, are pleasing in the sight of God.
God has a plan. And, the father is at the center of it.
What does your heritage, religious and or secular approach to life add to this discussion?
How do you interpret texts of great value to you and yours?
Responsible bible reading = Understand the text first within the context in which it occurs. —J. Sires.
Dear Friend Calbab I like this quotation.
It bears reflection and use.
Thanks for sharing.
E.
Enoch, in Genesis 5 list of ages, Methuselah (and many other patriarchs) is very, very, old. Can you share your explanation for accepting a "non-literal" account of his (and others) age?
Dear Friend Calbab: Numbers in Scripture are frequently reflecting the literary devices of the time period in which written and edited ton convey non literal meanings.
In the case of community elders, as age reflects experience, perspective and wisdom the more age is exaggerated, the more was meant that they possessed and utilized superior maturity and wisdom.
Another non literal use of numbers to make a point is boots on the ground.
When an army is described as like 1,000. even unto ten thousand it is meant to convey that they fought with the valor, intensity and effectiveness of ten times their compliment on the field of battle.
When numbers do not make any literal sense, there are literary devices in play.
All this comes across more accessibly in the original languages.
You may want, in English to read commentaries in the ICC (International Critical Commentary) series.
Great question, Dear Friend.
E.
Great sharing insights. And, the resource material. That's swell. I love this sharing, Enoch!
Dear Friend Bluestride: Great wisdom in this idea.
Thanks for sharing.
All the best.
E.
A text of scripture can not be [illuminated] in any way anyone wants it to be. It is not true that you can prove just anything from the Bible. As literature, the Bible is subject to the guard of immediate and larger contexts, and of genre (poetry, history, chronicle, parable, epistle, etceteras). —James W. Sire
Dear Friend Calbab: Anyone who gets whatever they want out of a text all the time isn't reading it right.
Agreed.
E.
Emphatically!