Go to Hell!! ... ... by Bob Nelson
I've been thinking a lot about "right and wrong" lately, thanks to the ugly wrongness of a certain perople. Thinking about right and wrong brought me to the always-fun topic of Hell... which of course brought me full circle to NewsTalkers...
And then, this morning, I was cleaning up my browser's "Bookmarks Toolbar"... It's amazing how much stuff accumulates - worse than the attic! I came across a panel discussion of Hell, with the participation of Benjamin Corey, one of my go-to-guys for intelligent Christianity. So (after finishing my bookmarks clean-up, I assure you) I googled "Benjamin Corey on Hell", and shazaam! I found the following seed. I'll be back for more conversation, after the good doctor has said his piece:
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Letting Go Of Hell (Without Letting Go Of The Bible)
by Benjamin L. Corey
Affirming that scripture is inspired and true means one must also affirm the “eternal, conscious torment” of hell, correct?
Nope– not at all, and today I’ll explain how it’s possible to let go of hell without letting go of the Bible. I’ve been meaning to write about this for a while, and saw that Evangelical Theologian Scott McKnight has been discussing it of late (you can find his posts on it here), so seems like a good time to weigh in a bit.
First, it is important to note that our concept of hell certainly did not exist in Old Testament times (the Hebrew word often translated as hell was “Sheol” does not mean “hell” by our modern understanding). In fact, the concept of hell we have today is far more based on the 14th Century Poem, Dante’s Inferno, than it is scripture itself. Because many of us have grown up with the unchallenged concept of hell being “eternal, conscious torment” we often fail to see alternative understandings that still take scripture seriously. In fact, often times we don’t even realize that such alternate understandings exist, believing the falsehood that one must either believe in the traditional hell or be a universalist.
Now, this is a deep theological topic worthy of a book (there are plenty if you want to go deeper) so I’ll obviously be oversimplifying in an attempt to simply explain the basic concepts of an alternative view. If there are aspects of interest to folks, perhaps we can do a few more posts on this topic and go a bit deeper.
First, it is important to understand the basic premise behind the modern concept of hell: the human soul is immortal, and cannot die. As a result, punishment in hell must be one of eternal, conscious torment. What one believes regarding immortality of the soul has direct correlation to the logical consistency they must follow in a concept of hell. If you grew up like me, we were never aware that there is an alternative view to immortality of the soul and certainly were never invited to consider the merits of the concept.
An alternative view to this belief that the human soul is immortal is a concept called conditionalism.
Conditionalism is the theological view I hold of the human soul, and is one that a growing number of evangelical theologians are embracing, so it isn’t a fringe, hippie view. In short, conditionalism argues that the human soul is not immortal in and of itself– it is only immortal if God wills, and grants immortality (see Romans 2:7, John 10:28, 1 Cor 15: 50, 54). Since God is the creator and one who sustains all things, nothing came to exist or continues to exist apart from his will for that thing or person to exist (Heb 1:3). Since the soul does not posses independent immortality, souls can in fact “die” or cease to exist if God withdraws his will for them to exist.
We would argue that this is precisely what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 10:28 when he said that we should not be afraid of human enemies who can kill the body but not the soul, but rather we should be concerned with God, who actually is able to kill the soul.
Now, if Jesus is correct, it seems that the human soul is not automatically immortal– such immortality is conditional.
This foundation of immortal vs. conditional sets the framework for the two ultimate dispositions of the unjust: eternal conscious torment, or annihilation. Conditionalism leads to the latter and immortality of the soul leads to the former.
Annihilation is the theological alternative to eternal, conscious torment, and the position that I hold. In this disposition, instead of being tortured in hell for all of eternity, the unjust die a “second death” or are “destroyed” as scripture itself calls it throughout both the Old and New Testaments. In fact, the annihilation of the unjust is a far more consistent position with the OT than is the traditional concept of eternal conscious torment. In considering annihilationism, it’s important to be willing to re-examine scripture without reading into it what we’ve been taught– instead, we must look at scripture with fresh eyes. Even go-to verses that we memorized as kids can take on a fresh understanding, such as Romans 6:23 which doesn’t say the “wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell” but rather, “the wages of sin is death“. Perhaps scripture means what it actually says– the consequence is “death” or ceasing to exist–AKA, annihilation.
These options lead us to two different competing narratives about God, which is why I think our theology on this topic is important. For the argument of immortality and eternal conscious torment the narrative becomes: “those who reject God are tortured for all of eternity and that this is pleasing to God”. Or the alternative: “to those who do not choose God’s love, he respects their decision and does not force them to live in eternal community with him, and therefore allows them to cease to exist”.
Those two narratives are crucially important because of how it impacts our view and our relationship to God. As A.W., Tozer once said, “what we think about God is the most important thing about us”. One narrative leads to a view of God where he delights in the torture of the wicked (in direct opposition to Ez 18:23), or even worse– that he created some people specifically for this purpose! Or, the second option, which leads to a loving God who invites all to come and embrace him, but ultimately respects each individual choice– even the choice to reject love.
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The Official Blog of Benjamin L. Corey
There may be links in the Original Article that have not been reproduced here.
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The "Fire and Brimstone" scenario is logically antinomic with "God is Love". If we believe that God is Love then the Fire and Brimstone is not even to be considered. Conversely, if Fire and Brimstone is true, then God is a monster, unworthy of our respect, much less our adoration. So let's forget about Fire and Brimstone.
Someone here on NT (Hal, maybe?) has said several times that eternity is intrinsically hellish, that eternal life must inevitably lead to unbearable boredom. Benjamin Corey's "annihilation" answers that problem... but only for the "damned"! The "saved" are the ones who are condemned in the "eternity is necessarily hell" scenario... which is kinda sorta upside down.
I could do one of my usual side-steps here, pleading ignorance of God's mind, and Her intentions for our eternal bliss. If we accept that "God is Love", then He will surely not condemn us to eternal boredom, but I'm damned (
) if I know what will happen...
But let's stick to a more literal scenario. Interestingly, a google search for "Benjamin Corey on heaven" returns... nothing. The good doctor seems to be more fixated on Hell (
). My other go-to-guy, Fred Clark, is equally silent ( ).
So... let's open up the google search a max: "What is heaven in modern Christianity?" Nada. All I can find is contrarian material like what we see on NT from conservatives, forever making up stuff about imaginary liberals. There's a lot about what's wrong with modern Christianity's vision of salvation and heaven... written by non-modern, IMHO-non-Christian writers... but nothing from actual modern Christians.
So... I guess I'll have to do my side-step after all:
Christ tells us to love one another.
Christ tells us that if we follow His path we will be saved.
So... let's love one another and have confidence in God...
What about all those who willfully do wrong? Well... if the soul is eternal, they're going to have a lot of time to reflect on their deeds, while deciding whether they prefer annihilation, or God's unknowable heaven. And when I say "they", I probably should say "we"...
It seems that the Last Judgement will be conducted by... us.
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I'm on a road trip for a couple weeks, so I won't be on NT very much. I won't be around to Moderate this conversation... not that anyone pays any attention to the author, anyway.
So...
Be Good!
I always liked the thought of one Christmas Humphrey, a mid 20th century British commentator on Buddhism - we are punished not for our sins , but by them. Hell is here on earth.
Hell is very real and was taught often by Jesus.
Mr Corey with his assumption in Matthew 10:20 either never studied the Greek text or is being dishonest.
Prior to the resurrection of Jesus, the dead all went to Hades. Hades had two divisions, torments and paradise (Luke 16:22-26). After His death Jesus proclaimed His victory over sin and death to those in Hades and then escorted those in paradise to heaven. Those who go to torments will remain there until the Great Throne judgment when death and Hades are cast into Hell
With the manifestation ofYHWH in the flesh, the person of Jesus, we have God providing us progressive revelation of the end of this creation.
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”Matthew 10:20
The word destroy in the Greek text is apollymi- “a strengthened form of ollumi , signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luk 5:37 ; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luk 15:4 , 6 , etc.; the lost son, Luk 15:24 ”
“And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire” Mark 9:47
“But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[fn] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire .” Matthew 5:22
“Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! “ Matthew 13:40-43
“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:11-15
Jesus and the prophets clearly taught that the soul is eternal.
“‘That’s when Michael, the great angel-prince, champion of your people, will step in. It will be a time of trouble, the worst trouble the world has ever seen. But your people will be saved from the trouble, every last one found written in the Book. Many who have been long dead and buried will wake up, some to eternal life, others to eternal shame” Daniel 12:1-2
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:45-46
Hell is very real, although not opened yet. The 20th and 21st century have seen a resurgence of false doctrines which attempt to deceive people away from the eternal consequences of sin.
Rev Larry Robinson
That's nice. Prove it!
Sounds like Christians just took the Greek concept of hell and applied it to their own religion. But Greek "hell" was sometimes referred to as the Underworld, with Hades (Zeus' brother) being the god of the Underworld.
Not quite. Hades had 3 major divisions: Elysium (heaven), the Fields of Asphodel (Purgatory), or Tartarus (hell proper).
Christians do not seem very original when it comes to their mythology. Frankly, I find Greek mythology to be far more colorful and amusing than the Christian version.
Hell, as most envision it, was invented by Dante Alighieri in his Divine Comedy and made vivid by the frightening illustrations of Botticelli. This literally put the 'fear of God' into people and church membership spiked upward.
This image of Hell is now part of many religions. So there you go, we can see a 14th century imagination from a single poet seen as religious truth by many today. Absolutely clear, historically, that this was invented by Dante yet for some it is now a divine truth.
Key word in there is "imagination." And some people are gullible (or willfully ignorant) enough to accept it as "truth."
I referenced the Jewish concept of Hades. You list a definition that is not Biblical.
My definition predates the bible. But whether it's Greek, Jewish, or whatever, it's still just mythical nonsense.
To my understanding - the Jewish don't believe in hell.
Where did you pull your usual nonsense from?
The absolute best you can do is claim that you believe Hell is real. Once you go beyond that and assert that 'Hell is real' your affirmative claim bears the burden of evidence. Your beliefs are not evidence. The beliefs of others is not evidence. Holy books are not evidence.
Evidence of Hell would require something that can be objectively measured and reviewed.