The Hollywood trope that men and women can't be 'just friends' sets both sexes up for failure

I kind of found this article interesting, since I am a baby boomer who has had mostly close male friendships. Never did they stray into anything sexual. So I am not sure if what causes these strange miscommunications between the sexes. 

I typed out a multiple paragraph response to this seed last night, but I deleted it because I thought it made me sound like a misogynistic jerk. Let's just say that when I was younger I lived at the drive-ins on the weekends, by invitation. Having hair down to my shoulders in the very early 70's definitely had It's perks. I was in my 50's before I actually asked a woman out on a date. Chances for platonic friendships between the sexes are remote unless the ground rules are predetermined. Even then, things can get sketchy in a hurry. I've had more than a few friendships go south because somebody thought the ground rules were up for renegotiation after several cocktails. I don't drink. Some people don't handle rejection well.

Well, how do you folks feel about male and female friendships? Can guys and gals be just friends?

I've had close friends who were women, sometimes it isn't what the two of you feel but, what people around you try to put into it. One friend of mine, who I was friends with her husband as well, we would go shopping together, take whole days to do things with each other, sometimes we would shop online for clothes I couldn't find anywhere else and, whisper over the styles and, what each other thought of them and, I could see that her husband really didn't care for it that much, he never said anything but, I could feel the "cold" coming off of him like Father Winter at times. So, I think people mistake what is really going on and, project their feelings at times.

I think you make a good point about projection. Hard to do anything about that. 

I still believe they can be friends. I've lived on both sides of the issue. I've had many good, decent male friends but I've also survived the abuse by men that I should have been able to trust. I've found some people, male and female, are easier to talk about it with so I guess I get the miscommunication part. Some people hear but don't listen.

Uppy,

What do you think is the difference between your relationships with men who were just friends and those who took advantage of you? 

Not sure Perrie, never really thought about it. May be the perception of their power or lack of over me. My abuse came mostly from men I perceived as having power over me. 

I perceived as having power over me. 

Physical or mental power?

Both. I was a child. 

Wow. that's awful. I can feel the scars everywhere. 

May be the perception of their power or lack of over me

In my opinion you are not that far off. 

Bringing right down to birds and bees a particular scent is cast that attracts and telegraphs to the bee. If the bee has a strong personality and notices you could be submissive....helloooo mama!

Some bees actually seek dominant personalities and can have the same advantage issues.

And even to this day, some bees are just replacing mommy.

There is also the flower that does not set boundaries and the strong personality bee can and will stretch to breaking.

I have several friends that are women, nothing more. Where I think the problem between friendships lies is between men and women who previously had a relationship that went beyond friendship. That's where things can get ugly. I tried to be friends with a woman I had a relationship with and it never worked. Too much baggage. 

I tried to be friends with a woman I had a relationship with and it never worked. Too much baggage. 

Although I think it can be done, I think, for the most part, you are right.  Probably the only time it can be done, is where there was a long-term friendship and then trying to date. The friendship has to have more value than the dating part. 

 I have been blessed otherwise. Even my long marriage that ended ugly came back around as friendship. 

Even my long marriage that ended ugly came back around as friendship. 

I think that's great.

I think a lot of it is the way we're socialized from childhood.  Boys are raised to be more straightforward.  They ask for what they want.  If they're angry, they say so. If they have an idea about how something might be done better than it is, they're encouraged to present it, without worrying that the proponents of other methods will be insulted.

Girls are raised not to say what they want.  They're raised to deny that they want that last piece of cake, but hope that somebody will offer it to them anyway, because good things come to those who don't ask for them, apparently.  It's unladylike to be angry, so they don't say they're angry until they're supremely pissed off.  They worry about hurting feelings at work by putting forth ideas that are at odds with their coworkers' ideas.

This leads men and women to frequently communicate entirely differently.  A man who is friends with a woman who might be interested in romance ends up feeling led on, because women are raised to believe it's not polite to tell him they're just not interested.  And men who are taught to just keep trying, because their romantic interests will come around, learn not to take a sincere "no" for an answer.

If we'd each say what we think, and learn that the other means what she says, we'd get along a lot better.

An interesting observation and you may be very right. 

I know I was raised very differently. I had a very straightforward mom, and she brought me up to be very straightforward. Hence why I have more male friends. We speak the same language. 

If we'd each say what we think, and learn that the other means what she says, we'd get along a lot better.

No arguing that. 

Tell me, do you think that this generation of young women will be different?

I think they may.  I think a lot of today's parents have been raised to be more conscious of the difference we make between girls and boys in their formative years.  They're teaching girls to speak their minds and not to take a back seat to boys, and boys to see girls as their equals in just about everything besides physical strength.

I always had more male friends, too, but my mom despaired of me ever being "ladylike" as she saw it

Tying this conversation in with the one about reading from a few days back, when this subject comes up, I always think of Pride and Prejudice and Mr. Collins' proposal to Elizabeth.  He couldn't take her "no" as a sincere answer, because he was sure she'd been raised not to say what she meant.

You know that is a very good example. 

I always had more male friends, too, but my mom despaired of me every being "ladylike" as she saw it 

I was a tomboy as a kid. It was OK with my mom, when we were here in the US. It was very frowned upon in the UK, and people used to make comments about my outspokenness. there. Once I heard a parent of a kid I used to play with call me an "American animal". Obviously, that stuck with me, since i still remember it. My parents taught me to stand up for myself. My dad even taught me how to fight, when I was having issues with the backdoor kid. I guess, they were unique for the time. 

Damn! That smiley got big, LOL!!

Damn! That smiley got big, LOL!!

I have noticed that some of the emojis get huge after I post them. This has only been in the past couple of weeks. Not sure what happened that some are suddenly getting so huge while others are staying the same size as usual. 

I was a tomboy as a kid.

I was, too.  I played Little League baseball, since there was no softball for girls at the time.  When there finally was a softball league, and I had to switch, I was annoyed with the girls who were more worried about their hair or getting dirty than with playing.  I just about quit when I was told our catcher couldn't have been expected to catch a ball I threw home from second base to home because I threw it from too far away    

I also fought the neighborhood bully when he knocked my younger brother down and ran off.  He came back for more, and I blacked his eye.  The bully mentioned that years later - said he was still a bit scared of me.  But he never laid another finger on my brother.

I also fought the neighborhood bully when he knocked my younger brother down and ran off.  He came back for more, and I blacked his eye.  The bully mentioned that years later - said he was still a bit scared of me.  But he never laid another finger on my brother.

Love it. Caught my little sister doing something similar to some idiots who were picking on my little brother. though several years younger was pretty much my size. Took him a while to figure that out.

My brother was a good bit smaller than me back then.  The bully was my size.  I just happened to land the first punch, and a good one.  He left us both alone after that.

Mom was glad I'd stood up for my brother, but told me it was unladylike to boast about it.  I decided about then that "ladylike" didn't sound like much fun at all.

He left us both alone after that.

Good for you. My little sister was and still is little, but when it comes to bullies, a take no prisoners attitude encouraged by the fact she had backup helped her.

Reminds me of 2 stories...if you don't mind?

Let's start with my brother and work back in time.

So we are about a year into this new neighborhood. My "little" brother and I take a walk into town for some milk at the local High's store. Not sure if it exists anymore.

As we approach the store, 3 of the juvies take position with the intent to "rough us up". LOL. They had no idea what they were up against.

As we were walking I turned to my brother and told him to go on back home. Never saw him move so fast in my life.

so I approach these 3 knuckle heads and give them the benefit of the "stare down ritual". Then literally walked over them.

Guy in the High's store asks if I'll be okay, and said, I'm okay.

Went out with the gallon of milk, walked over them again. The look on my brothers face was priceless when I got home.

Picked up a lot of credits with him that day.

Several years earlier in the old neighborhood. The land of post apocalyptic mutants.

Pamela

The most beautiful of all the girls in the entire community.

Saved my ass.

Long black hair

Blue eyes

Mini skirts and mini dresses

Legs "up to there"

"High heels" (for the time and age)

Always smelled like spring flowers

Two years older

What's not to like for a younger pre teen guy?

One day on the buss, the worst of the post apocalyptic mutants stopped, reached past me and smacked my friend in the head. A few seconds later he did the same thing. On the third attempt I smacked his hand away jumped up and took a boxing position. My Dad taught me to box.

This guy was twice my mass or more. Repeated many grades. No idea of his true age.

He took a shot at me which shot right through my positioned blocks and sent me reeling a bit.

Tightened up my position and went back to him. The good old stare down.

From behind me I hear "DON'T YOU DARE".

It was Pamela.

The mutants attention turned to her and i blocked his path to her.

Everyone on the buss stood up against him at that point.

The mutant never rode that buss again.

I've always told my son never to start a fight, and to always try to find a way other than violence.  Tell an adult, work your problems out with words, whatever.  But having had a few bullies in my past, I know that sometimes, fighting back is your only option, so he had my permission to fight back, if other options didn't work.  I told him that if he'd told teachers about violence, and it went ignored, I'd have his back if he got in trouble for defending himself.

Well, there was this kid at his school a few years back.  He didn't pick on my kid, but he picked on a girl in his class.  He'd get her down on the ground and dry-hump her on the playground.  She and my son, plus a bunch of other kids, tried to tell the teachers, but the teachers were conveniently always in another part of the playground when it happened.  I believe my son about this, because it was consistent with that kid's behavior outside of school.  Anyway, my son and another boy tried to pull the bully off of the girl, and the bully ended up getting hurt (details are sketchy).  The bully's mother was angry, but I wasn't, at least not at my son.  I was angry at the school for letting it go so far that a couple of 11-year-olds thought that it was their responsibility to defend their classmate, because the adults couldn't be bothered.  They're lucky the girl's parents didn't address it in the courts.

I was angry at the school for letting it go so far that a couple of 11-year-olds thought that it was their responsibility to defend their classmate, because the adults couldn't be bothered. 

This is all too common.

Too often there is justification for continued vicious behaviour.

Too often there is a suicide followed by pontifications and yet nothing meaningful happens.

Then again another suicide and more pontifications and yet nothing meaningful happens.

Again and again and again, etc.

This is all too common. Too often there is justification for continued vicious behaviour.

Yeah.  This kid had always been trouble.  He's calmed down in the last year or two, I think, but back then, he was completely uncontrollable.  I know his parents were exhausted trying to deal with him, and I'm sure his teachers were, too.  But to let him sexually assault another student repeatedly, and just try to be somewhere else when it happened - that should never happen.

I had to find out about the whole thing from the bully's mother.  The school didn't even bother to let me know anything had happened.  And I don't think she knew about the dry-humping.

But to let him sexually assault another student repeatedly, and just try to be somewhere else when it happened - that should never happen.

Absolutely.

I recall when a child watching some movies on tv, it was common and even expected that "the man" would beat or back hand "the woman" if displeased.

I often think the mutants in these neighborhoods grew up in these types of families.

I remember my Dad's Korean war buddies would get unexpectedly upset when as a child, I could out shoot them. I wondered how they handled disappointment at home with their families?

I wonder how much of this is still passed down?

I was a tomboy as a kid.

Same here. Two reasons for that were; 1) There was only one other girl on our block and she was much older than I was, 2) My Brother was 18 months older than me and I got a lot of his hand-me down jeans and t-shirts. I hated dresses as they were uncomfortable, and not really appropriate for climbing trees and fences. I only wore dresses to school (as required) and for special family occasions. 

The boys on our block always complained that I was able to climb higher in the trees than they could, and could out run them. I was the athletic one in the family. I played softball, field hockey, volleyball and basketball. My Brother played the Trumpet. 

I was a toothpick, and a lot of people in our neighborhood didn't know I was a girl until I grew boobs. (grin)

Of course they can be friends. Why not?

Of course coming from a guy who terrorized would be boyfriends of both my younger and older sisters.

Had a couple of them running down the street.

Most of the people that I worked with in all the areas of employment and business ownership were males. I actually got along better with the males than the females I worked with. Maybe because I am not fond of gossip, nor am I jealous of other women. Thus, most women tended to shun me, except for those who are similar to me and we were good friends. I really preferred to work with men, as they are far easier to get along with and I don't have to deal with all the gossip and jealousy. Maybe that goes back to the fact that I was a Tomboy when I was young and most of my playmates were boys, so I learned how to deal with them and get along with them.   

Some of the best Friends I have had in life were males. Even those I competed with. There was never anything sexual or romantic involved, we just hit it off and became good Friends and working colleagues. 

I used to have quite a few female platonic friends but that all changed after I got married and she turned out to be insanely and irrationally jealous.

and she turned out to be insanely and irrationally jealous.

I had a boyfriend like that once. Since many of the people I worked with were men, it proved to be far too impossible for me to deal with his intense jealousy and irrational accusations of infidelity. If I spent more than 30 minutes at the grocery store buying a weeks groceries he accused me of having an affair. Thus relationship was short lived.  I assured him I was no one's 'property'. I didn't 'belong' to anyone but ME. Fini!

My ex's sister has a husband like that. When he found out that the doctor who saw her for a prenatal visit was male, he screamed at her and slammed down the phone. When she had to travel for work, he insisted on going with her, convinced she'd cheat on him.

If I spent more than 30 minutes at the grocery store buying a weeks groceries he accused me of having an affair. Thus relationship was short lived.

I hear you.   The funny part is that my ex denied being jealous at all but none of my former girlfriends ever acted like that.    It wasn't the main reason we split but it was definitely a factor.

Never again will I ignore huge red flags like that one.

A girl I worked with at a summer job in high school did, too.  One morning, she came to work steaming mad.  He'd gone out with friends the night before, and she didn't want to go.  He told her that if she didn't go with him, she wasn't to leave the house at all.  She left the house immediately.  He called to check up on her, and her mom answered.  "I told her she wasn't to leave the house."  Her mother said, and I quote, "Well, that was your first damned mistake, wasn't it?"  It was also his last, in that relationship.

Never again will I ignore huge red flags like that one

Sometimes those red flags don't show up until after that fact. But, once they do, I also see red, and the door knob on the exit door does not even touch their butts as they are tossed out. 

Life is too dang short to be 'owned' by anyone. BTDT, and never again. If I wanted to be 'owned' by anyone, it would cost them way more than they could ever hope to pay. And I'd charge 500% interest as well. (grin)

Yeah, this girl didn't, not even for a second.  I feel bad for my SIL, who does, and has 2 little girls who will learn to allow men to treat them the same way.

Her parents' relationship isn't especially healthy, either.  I think her father now regrets that she is willing to accept being treated this way, but it's what she saw growing up.

i absolutely think it's possible and know many people who are strictly platonic friends with the opposite gender. But, i think phrases like "the best relationships (marriage etc) are rooted in friendship" does muddy the waters a bit for some people - it's almost as if they expect that if they are friends with the opposite gender then they'll suddenly have the best romantic relationship from it instantly, which isn't always the case.

We should also generalize the topic to "can you just be friends with someone you're attracted to (or vice versa)?"

We should also generalize the topic to "can you just be friends with someone you're attracted to (or vice versa)?"

that'd be a good topic too. I have quite a few friends, and some of them i get along with greatly - we always have a fantastic time together and have bonded over the years, but i could never be in a romantic relationship with them. Relationships are much more complex - because they involve humans.. who are very complex

I think it's the question really being asked here but just limited to opposite-sex friends.

A different question entirely would be whether someone can be friends with a person whose communication style is quite different from your own?

A different question entirely would be whether someone can be friends with a person whose communication style is quite different from your own?

Growing up in a hearing impaired family from many Paternal generations back, each with a different level of hearing loss and understanding of what it being said, I had to learn how to communicate with each one at their own level. 

Voice range and speaking speed played a big part in being able to have them understand me. Speaking louder was not always the answer, as sometimes speaking louder only tended to make it more difficult to understand what I was saying. Some better understood the lower pitches, some the higher pitches. But, the main thing was to always look at them in the eye when I spoke to them so that they could also read my lips and, and facial expressions were a big help too, as long as they were not too exaggerated. 

When I was at work, I was the go to person to communicate with those patrons who were hearing impaired, as it only took me a few words to understand how they best understood what I was saying. Also being hearing impaired as I grew older helped me be more compassionate with their need to fully understand what is being said, without feeling that they were being talked down to because of their hearing loss.

While I didn't know sign language, I was also able to communicate with those who were deaf, by using my own version of sign language that made it easier form them to understand what I was saying. It kind of goes back to the ability of various Native American Tribes who did not speak the same language being able to communicate with each other using a form of sign language. It didn't take long for the different Tribes to be able to communicate well enough to engage in trade and friendship. 

So that is how I approached communicating with with the deaf. There was even one deaf clerk who worked in my area with me and we became great friends for many years. I also helped those in my office area learn how to communicate with her as well. 

As the old saying goes......where there is a will, there is always a way if one is willing to take the time to find it. 

I used to develop medical devices for the deaf and the part that fascinated me was the significant cultural difference from the hearing society (at least for deaf folks who were fluent in ASL).    That aspect isn't too surprising since you'd expect it for any other linguistic group, but it was dramatically different from working with the blind.

What I have found in working with the hearing impaired and deaf over the years, is even if I do not speak their language, or know the established sign language, I can still communicate with them well enough to understand them and they understand me well enough to converse using what I all 'cultural sign language'. If I know enough about their culture, language and their hand expressions as they speak, I can generally pick up enough hand gestures to be able to get my point across, and understand most of theirs. Most languages are very animated with hand gestures while speaking. So it is fairly easy to pick up on that as well. 

I find most of the deaf people I meet are quick to catch on and appreciate the being treated like a hearing person. That in itself is something that makes working with them easier and more productive.

At least that works for me. 

"When friendship is peddled as a means to a different end, it makes it hard for both sexes to build the intimacy that being friends requires."

I think the general statement that men and women can't be friends is really just speaking to two different disparate groups with differing intentions. That statement is saying that, generally, women are looking for something in a relationship that many men aren't willing to accept until they are "ready to settle down", aka feel like their remaining options are now limited. Women hit this point earlier than men thus the awkward "Men & women just can't be friends" trope. Generally, women in their early twenties are already looking to nest, looking for a consistent mate who they can be reassured will be able to provide for their possible progeny. And by the late twenties, early thirties, women likely have a genetic time bomb going off that tells them "It's now or never!" which really speeds up their nest search (and cuts their list of wants in a man by 90%) if they haven't found it before then.

This means there are a few general stages of possible "friendships" available throughout ones life. There's "friend", someone you have zero sexual desire for but would be the first person you call in an emergency. Then there's a "friend with benefits" which is someone a girl has thought of settling down with but she just has too many things to do before she can accept that fate. Then there's the "old friend", which is someone who's been a friend for a while, but as the you've gotten older you're thinking might now be a viable option for mating because they haven't partnered up yet (and neither have you) and the clock is-a-ticking. A woman in her late teens, early twenties, likely only sees two main types of friends, those she can see herself nesting with, and those she doesn't see as nesting with. The latter category is often referred to as the "friend zone". Now later in life, as was the case in "When Harry Met Sally", a woman might change those priorities, moving someone who she initially thought of as "just a friend" to "old friend" aka "potential mate" status.

But back to the main subject, can men and women be friends? I think the answer is a definitive "YES!" with some minor caveats. The man and women in question need to already have fulfilling lives and neither one is offering or even suggesting an offer of intimacy. If both are completely fulfilled with their own lives, are relatively happy with their current status, married or not, then a platonic friendship can not only happen, but it can thrive. However, due to our natures of believing the grass is always greener on the other side, aka never being happy with what we've got and preferring to covet other peoples things instead of finding joy in what we have, the perception is men and women can't be friends because it's nearly impossible for both persons to feel the exact same passive way about each other. One person will almost always, invariably, think they would be happier if they changed their status from friend zone to end zone.