3 officers resign after lawsuit says police dislocated 73-year-old woman's shoulder during arrest

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  john-russell  •  2 weeks ago  •  49 comments

By:   Sady Swanson and Rebecca Powell (MSN)

3 officers resign after lawsuit says police dislocated 73-year-old woman's shoulder during arrest
Officers Austin Hopp, Daria Jalali and Tyler Blackett are "no longer employed with the Loveland Police Department," Chief Robert Ticer said Friday.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



FORT COLLINS, Colo. - Three police officers involved in the arrest and detention of 73-year-old Karen Garner, who has dementia, last summer have resigned, Loveland police officials announced Friday.

'We failed and we are very sorry.' Loveland Police chief says in response to Karen Garner arrest

Officers Austin Hopp, Daria Jalali and community service officer Tyler Blackett are "no longer employed with the Loveland Police Department," Chief Robert Ticer announced in a press conference.

Ticer declined to specify whether the officers resigned or were terminated. Department spokesperson Tom Hacker later told the Coloradoan, part of the USA TODAY Network, the three officers resigned. Loveland is about 50 miles north of Denver.

The announcement comes about two weeks after a federal civil rights lawsuit was filed by attorney Sarah Schielke on behalf of Garner and her family alleging officers used excessive force and violated Garner's rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act. The lawsuit also accuses the Loveland Police Department of failing to train their officers on interacting with residents with disabilities.

In addition to the three former officers, Sgt. Philip Metzler and Sgt. Antolina Hill are also named as defendants in the lawsuit. Metzler, who also responded to the scene of Garner's arrest and was Hopp's supervisor, has been placed on administrative leave. Hill, who is accused of knowing about Garner's injuries but did not intervene, is continuing to work her regular duty assignment, Ticer said.

Ticer recognized the "outpouring of concerns" they've heard locally and internationally regarding Garner's arrest and detention. "Our goal as the Loveland Police Department is to make our community proud," Ticer said. "We failed, and we are sorry."

Ticer said Friday he was not aware of the allegations that Garner was seriously injured during the June 26 arrest until the federal lawsuit was filed April 14.

In Hopp's body camera footage, released to the public by Schielke, Hopp is seen pushing Garner to the ground within seconds of approaching her after she was accused of leaving Walmart without paying for $13.88 worth of merchandise. Garner was stopped by staff before leaving with the items.

Jalali arrives on scene shortly after, as does Metzler, and they are seen in the video assisting Hopp in forcibly detaining Garner. During the arrest, officers dislocated Garner's shoulder, fractured her arm and sprained her wrist, according to the lawsuit.

Garner has dementia and sensory aphasia, which impairs her ability to communicate and understand others, according to her family.

Video from inside the Loveland Police Department also released by Schielke shows Hopp, Jalali and Blackett laughing and talking about the arrest while watching Hopp's body camera footage together as Garner sits handcuffed in a holding cell nearby.

Hopp can be heard in the video asking Jalali if she heard Garner's arm pop during the arrest. At another point in the video, Hopp says, "I can't believe I threw a 73-year-old woman on the ground."

The lawsuit claims Hill also entered the booking area and knew Garner was injured but did not help her.

"What you saw in the video is not the Loveland Police Department," Ticer said of his personal feelings watching those videos. "It hurt to see that. I've been in law enforcement for 32 years and it hurt to see that."

Schielke criticized Ticer's statement that the behavior in the videos do not reflect the Loveland Police Department.

"He is wrong. This is the Loveland Police Department. And it is his Loveland Police Department," Schielke said in a news release Friday afternoon. "He is responsible for what happens in it."

Schielke said Ticer's decision not to resign and the city manager's decision not to fire him "proves that LPD's leadership and toxic culture problems are just as bad as we suspected when we saw the very first video, if not worse."

In a statement from Garner's family in the news release, they said they were disappointed by Ticer's comments and actions, calling his statement an effort "to protect only himself and the reputation of the LPD."

"(J)ust like on June 26, 2020, the inhumane treatment of our mother was ignored and his continued support of the department was the focus," the family's statement said. "He said that our mother's case has 'hurt him personally.' It is clear that the only thing that has 'hurt him personally' has been the attention this case has brought to his department. Not what happened to our mother."

Eighth Judicial District Attorney Gordon McLaughlin launched a criminal investigation, led by Fort Collins Police Services, to determine if any laws were violated. After the Critical Incident Response Team investigation, Ticer has said the department will work with the city's human resources department and a third-party investigator to conduct an internal affairs investigation to determine if any officers involved violated department policies.

This article originally appeared on Fort Collins Coloradoan: 3 officers resign after lawsuit says police dislocated 73-year-old woman's shoulder during arrest


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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  seeder  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  seeder  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

Cenk from The Young Turks described this well. When you're trained to be a hammer everything looks like a nail. 

There should be a 911 element that sends responders to cases like this that are not there to forcibly arrest a 73 year old women with dementia, but rather to find out what happened.  These cops, the one fool in particular , were completely out of line. This stuff needs to stop. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3  Kavika     2 weeks ago

Unbelievable that they would treat 73-year-old women this way and then brag about it. Unless there is some kind of national register for LEO's that are fired they will go to work in another police force. It's happened many times before.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
3.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Kavika @3    2 weeks ago

Unbelievable unless you have paid attention to the news as recently as a couple days ago. This kinda shit happens all the time. Until LEOs can be hit personally with a lawsuit don’t expect much to change.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
3.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Kavika @3    2 weeks ago
Unbelievable that they would treat 73-year-old women this way and then brag about it.

There are different ways of looking at this.

This 73 year old women stole $14 dollars worth of merchandise, then assaulted the Walmart employee attempting to stop her.  And no it wasn't a dangerous assault that would hurt the employee, but it was assault.  When she was approached by the police she resisted arrest and was forcibly arrested.

Most news stories are leaving off the whole assault and resisting arrest part, skewing the stories towards the policing assaulting her.

On the other hand, the police were placed if a very tough situation.  A 73 year old lady with dementia and sensory aphasia committed a crime.  That situation requires the utmost tact and strict adherence to policy and procedure.  The 3 officers failed in that regards.

The officers where placed in a bad situation, and failed to properly handle it.  

They weren't "bragging" about it, they were reviewing the cam footage and ( I am being very very generous to them here ), they are relieving the stress of the situation by laughing about it.  Again, a failure on their part.

Should they have lost their jobs?  Oh yes.

But it also shows a lack of training for the department itself.  Police officers NEED to know how to handle situations like this, and these officers plainly did not.  They treated a lady with dementia and sensory aphasia the same way they would treat any criminal, and that is wrong and needs to be addressed. 

Police officers must be able to show compassion and empathy for EVERYONE they deal with.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.2.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Ozzwald @3.2    2 weeks ago
This 73 year old women stole $14 dollars worth of merchandise, then assaulted the Walmart employee attempting to stop her.  And no it wasn't a dangerous assault that would hurt the employee, but it was assault.  When she was approached by the police she resisted arrest and was forcibly arrested. Most news stories are leaving off the whole assault and resisting arrest part, skewing the stories towards the policing assaulting her.

I think I saw the whole video of the arrest and I didnt see much resisting until after the cop threw her to the ground . As far as assaulting a Walmart employee , she is 73 years old and weighs about 90 pounds. This is the person you hear about who couldnt punch their way out of a wet paper bag. 

The Walmart staff handled it very poorly. The police should not have even been called in this instance. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
3.2.2  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.1    2 weeks ago
I think I saw the whole video of the arrest and I didnt see much resisting until after the cop threw her to the ground .

Agreed, but it doesn't take much to qualify.

As far as assaulting a Walmart employee , she is 73 years old and weighs about 90 pounds. This is the person you hear about who couldnt punch their way out of a wet paper bag.

Again, agreed. But again, to qualify as assault does not require actual physical damage to the other person.  Simply touching them against their will would qualify

The Walmart staff handled it very poorly. The police should not have even been called in this instance.

Here is where we disagree.  While she is old and feeble, she still stole merchandise from Walmart.  Walmart did the proper thing in calling the police, otherwise they may as well post a sign at the entrance, "All Merchandise Free for those 73 or Older".

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.2.3  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Ozzwald @3.2.2    2 weeks ago
While she is old and feeble, she still stole merchandise from Walmart.  Walmart did the proper thing in calling the police,

No. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
3.2.4  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.3    2 weeks ago
No.

You feel Walmart should accept the loss from shoplifting anything by someone 73 years of age or older?  Let them walk off with whatever they can carry?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.2.5  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Ozzwald @3.2.4    2 weeks ago

They had the woman caught and retrieved the merchandise. No need to have her arrested.

You make it sound like every senior citizen wants to steal from Walmart. I am sure that is quite inaccurate. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
3.2.6  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.5    2 weeks ago
They had the woman caught and retrieved the merchandise. No need to have her arrested.

And as soon as others discover that Walmart will not press charges against seniors, what do you think will happen?  What if they'd found $100 of stolen merchandise on her?  Would that make a difference to you?

You make it sound like every senior citizen wants to steal from Walmart. I am sure that is quite inaccurate.

No, but I do feel that if it is discovered that Walmart won't press charges, there are many seniors that will take advantage of that policy. 

As far as shoplifting is concerned, you have to realize that for every 1 they catch, at least 10 get away.  Which again puts it down to you feeling that Walmart should just accept the losses from that type of policy.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
3.2.7  Tacos!  replied to  Ozzwald @3.2.6    2 weeks ago
And as soon as others discover that Walmart will not press charges against seniors

As long as they can ID her, she can be charged with a crime without being arrested. Not everyone charged with a misdemeanor goes to jail before being arraigned.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.2.8  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Ozzwald @3.2.6    2 weeks ago

Do you own Walmart stock or something? Most shoplifting does not get prosecuted, no matter the age of the perp. It is completely inappropriate to do to a 73 year old with cognitive disabilities, even to send a message. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
3.2.9  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.8    2 weeks ago

In a case like this, I would expect that the court would order her into some kind of counseling or other mental health treatment for a time and then dismiss the case if she completed it.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
3.2.10  Ozzwald  replied to  Tacos! @3.2.7    2 weeks ago
As long as they can ID her, she can be charged with a crime without being arrested.

Walmart security has absolutely no authority to demand ID of anyone.  Period.

Not everyone charged with a misdemeanor goes to jail before being arraigned.

You are correct.  Once the police officer demands ID from the shoplifter, and gets it, they can chose to issue a summons and release that person.  But that is only the police officer's choice, Walmart security would have no input about it.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
3.2.11  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.8    2 weeks ago
Most shoplifting does not get prosecuted, no matter the age of the perp.

Most shoplifting is not detected.  Which is why it would be open season if it got out that they were not prosecuting the elderly.

It is completely inappropriate to do to a 73 year old with cognitive disabilities, even to send a message. 

Agreed. 

Now please explain to me how Walmart security can force someone to take a Cognitive and Neuropsychological test prior to calling the police on them?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.2.12  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Ozzwald @3.2.11    2 weeks ago

It was obvious in the police video that this woman had some sort of problem. It should have been obvious to the Walmart personnel too. We're just not going to come to agreement about this. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
3.2.13  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.12    2 weeks ago
It was obvious in the police video that this woman had some sort of problem.

Agreed.

It should have been obvious to the Walmart personnel too.

Agreed.

We're just not going to come to agreement about this.

Correct.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Masters Guide
4  Greg Jones    2 weeks ago

They've been fired, now they need to be prosecuted and sued.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Junior Participates
4.1  Snuffy  replied to  Greg Jones @4    2 weeks ago

Yes. Their actions are so out of line they need to be held personally responsible.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2  Kavika   replied to  Greg Jones @4    2 weeks ago
They've been fired, now they need to be prosecuted and sued.

The article states that they resigned and were not fired. They should have been fired and as you stated prosecuted and sued.

 
 
 
SteevieGee
Junior Silent
5  SteevieGee    2 weeks ago

Too bad Sheriff Arpaio lost his job.  He would have hired these bullies in an instant.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
Masters Participates
5.1  r.t..b...  replied to  SteevieGee @5    2 weeks ago

“Too bad Sheriff Arpaio...”

...pardon me. 

 
 
 
SteevieGee
Junior Silent
5.1.1  SteevieGee  replied to  r.t..b... @5.1    2 weeks ago

/s.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
5.2  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  SteevieGee @5    2 weeks ago
He would have hired these bullies in an instant.

and that is WHY joe lost his job. Here in Phoenix we had had enough of his ass. .. Forever !  

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
5.2.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @5.2    2 weeks ago

He was a fuckhead no doubt, too bad Trump pardoned him. The mother fucker ran around the county like the law and system applied to everyone but him and his officers. He wasn’t “America’s toughest sherif” or whatever, he was law enforcement’s biggest problem manifest as a person.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
6  Thrawn 31    2 weeks ago

Yeah, breaking the arm of an old dementia patient and then joking and laughing about it later isn’t a good look. 

A lawsuit seems appropriate, but of course, qualified immunity is pretty difficult to overcome.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
7  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu     2 weeks ago

One wonders if Karma will follow these "officers".

Lock em up ! Set an example just like the penal system is supposed to do. A couple of years would send a message

Do not hurt 73 year old granny, it's not nice.  In Fact it's illegal. 

Sad, hope the old gal recovers quickly and fully and her bank account is rewarded for her pain. 

Some people really should not hold power !

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
8  sandy-2021492    2 weeks ago

"Hear the pop?"  Of course there was a pop, with her shoulder at that angle.  Laughing over a cop causing serious injury to an older woman who was half his size.  Disgusting.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
9  Tacos!    2 weeks ago

It just cannot be necessary to handcuff people all the time. I hope I never get the cops pissed at me because I have all sorts of issues in one of my shoulders. You’d have to destroy the joint to cuff me behind my back.

 
 
 
SteevieGee
Junior Silent
9.1  SteevieGee  replied to  Tacos! @9    2 weeks ago

Quit your whining.  You criminals are always crying about non-existent health issues.  Next you'll be saying you can't breathe.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
9.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Tacos! @9    2 weeks ago
It just cannot be necessary to handcuff people all the time.

It is if they have been arrested.  Remember when placed in the police car, they will be behind the officer, who will be busy concentrating on driving, not able to watch the arrestee(?) for shenanigan's.

I hope I never get the cops pissed at me because I have all sorts of issues in one of my shoulders. You’d have to destroy the joint to cuff me behind my back.

I'm in the same shape, almost.  My shoulders will still bend that far, but I would be in a fair amount of pain during the process.  I would hope that if it came to be, that the officer would empathize and double cuff my wrists.  2 cuffs linked together to form 1 longer one.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
9.2.1  Tacos!  replied to  Ozzwald @9.2    2 weeks ago

I understand why some people get cuffed, for sure. I just can’t help but think that if you (not you, personally. just generally) feel you need to cuff a 73 year old woman, you might be kind of a pussy. Maybe let braver people be cops.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
9.2.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Tacos! @9.2.1    2 weeks ago
I just can’t help but think that if you (not you, personally. just generally) feel you need to cuff a 73 year old woman, you might be kind of a pussy.

Can a 73 year old woman, criminal, stab you in the back while you're busy driving a car with your back to her?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
9.2.3  Tacos!  replied to  Ozzwald @9.2.2    2 weeks ago
Can a 73 year old woman, criminal, stab you in the back while you're busy driving a car with your back to her?

Not if I pat her down for weapons and then lock her in a cage (what most police car backseats are).

Anyway, go ahead and cuff her in the front. Attach the cuffs to the seat if you like. Twisting people’s arms behind their backs is dangerous and unnecessary.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
9.2.4  Ozzwald  replied to  Tacos! @9.2.3    2 weeks ago
Not if I pat her down for weapons and then lock her in a cage (what most police car backseats are).

A male police officer, patting down a female prisoner EVERYWHERE a weapon could be hidden?  Nothing short of a strip search would work for that.  Remember, without handcuffs, she could pull a weapon from anywhere.....

Anyway, go ahead and cuff her in the front.

Making it easier for her to stab the officer driving?

Attach the cuffs to the seat if you like.

To the upholstery?

Twisting people’s arms behind their backs is dangerous and unnecessary.

When you put someone in the back of a patrol car, they have only gotten a precursory search.  Often you will find small weapons or contraband stashed in the cracks of the seat.  Once they are in a controlled location, a full search will be done, and a female officer will be available for female prisoners.  This is not something done in public during the heat of the moment.

Most arms and shoulders can handle your wrists going behind your back, you and I are exceptions, but the officer should be aware of that and compensate.  Handcuffing behind a prisoner's back is not to inflict pain on the prisoner, it is to try and ensure the safety of the officer handling the prisoner.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
9.2.5  Tacos!  replied to  Ozzwald @9.2.4    2 weeks ago
Remember, without handcuffs, she could pull a weapon from anywhere.....

So, you think this 73 year old woman might have a knife in her vagina?

To the upholstery?

No. It would be easy to install some kind of ring somewhere in the cage.

This is not something done in public during the heat of the moment.

You see “heat” in this situation? An old woman who might have dementia. Heat. Really?

Handcuffing behind a prisoner's back is not to inflict pain on the prisoner

And yet it actually does precisely that to many people. What it is done for is irrelevant. What it accomplishes is what matters. Keep in mind, I’m not talking generally about arrestees who are resisting, and this lady seemed to be resisting at least somewhat. Even so, I believe many cops take the opportunity to abuse the person being cuffed when they don’t need to. However, people who are compliant and ask to be cuffed in front should be allowed that.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
9.2.6  Ozzwald  replied to  Tacos! @9.2.5    2 weeks ago
So, you think this 73 year old woman might have a knife in her vagina?

Are you saying that is absolutely impossible?

No. It would be easy to install some kind of ring somewhere in the cage.

Never seen one in a standard patrol car.

You see “heat” in this situation? An old woman who might have dementia. Heat. Really?

Playing word games?  In the "heat" of them moment just means while you are doing everything else, around a crowd of people, outside Walmart, watching and apparently recording what you are doing. 

Would you be okay with a male police officer searching a woman's crotch and breast areas in front of a crowd of people???

And yet it actually does precisely that to many people.

I have never denied that.  In fact I have stated that the officer should be aware of it, and take steps to minimize or eliminate that pain, (this part is new) without compromising his own safety.

What it is done for is irrelevant.

The officer's safety is irrelevant???

What it accomplishes is what matters.

It prevents a prisoner from harming himself or others.

Even so, I believe many cops take the opportunity to abuse the person being cuffed when they don’t need to.

All prisoners need to be handcuffed, anybody who has spent any time in law enforcement will tell you that.  The one time you don't may be your last time.

However, people who are compliant and ask to be cuffed in front should be allowed that.

No, never. 

They are compliant until they aren't.  If not properly applied, those handcuffs turn into deadly weapons.  With their hands in front, they make an excellent garrote.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
9.2.7  Tacos!  replied to  Ozzwald @9.2.6    2 weeks ago
Are you saying that is absolutely impossible?

You want guarantees in life?

Never seen one in a standard patrol car.

Maybe we need better patrol cars. Just because you have never seen a thing, that doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea.

In the "heat" of them moment just means while you are doing everything else, around a crowd of people, outside Walmart, watching and apparently recording what you are doing.

Yeah, and this is a problem in policing. Too many cops lose their patience in this situation. When things are hot, cops need to be better able to keep their cool.

The officer's safety is irrelevant???

Not what I was saying and you know it. Deal honestly with me.

It prevents a prisoner from harming himself or others.

Considering how many people harm themselves or others - cuffed or not - maybe it’s not such an effective strategy.

If not properly applied, those handcuffs turn into deadly weapons. With their hands in front, they make an excellent garrote.

She’s 73. Come on.

anybody who has spent any time in law enforcement will tell you that

There are a lot of people in law enforcement who need to throw away a lot the things they think they know. Paranoia and overreactions are causing problems. We need to start caring about that.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
9.2.8  Ozzwald  replied to  Tacos! @9.2.7    2 weeks ago
You want guarantees in life?

If I am putting a criminal behind me, yes I want guarantees, or else she's getting properly handcuffed.

Maybe we need better patrol cars. Just because you have never seen a thing, that doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea.

You should bring your idea up with your local law enforcement.

Yeah, and this is a problem in policing. Too many cops lose their patience in this situation. When things are hot, cops need to be better able to keep their cool.

You are correct, it all goes to their training, and the mood of the crowd,  Hostile crowds are a lot different from simple lookee loos.

Not what I was saying and you know it. Deal honestly with me.

Yes it was what you were saying.  Prisoners are handcuffed for the safety of the police officer and others.

Considering how many people harm themselves or others - cuffed or not - maybe it’s not such an effective strategy.

Now who's not being honest?  Pull up some numbers.  How many arrested versus how many injure themselves or others while in custody.

She’s 73. Come on.

Allow me refer back to your 1st statement...."You want guarantees in life?"

And I'll reiterate, where my life is concerned, yes I would want guarantees.

There are a lot of people in law enforcement who need to throw away a lot the things they think they know.

And there are a lot of people NOT in law enforcement that think they know better.

Nobody is claiming cops are perfect.  Nobody is claiming that cops do the right thing every time.  Chauvin is a very good example of someone who should never have been allowed to be a cop, the Loveland incident is a good example of cops who have not been properly trained or lack the needed compassion for the job. 

HOWEVER most cops are doing the best they can, while making sure that at the end of their shift, they are able to go home.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
9.2.9  Tacos!  replied to  Ozzwald @9.2.8    2 weeks ago
HOWEVER most cops are doing the best they can, while making sure that at the end of their shift, they are able to go home.

Look, my dad was a cop and a single parent, so I grew up in a police station. Cops were my baby sitters and extended family. And when my old man died, literally hundreds of them came to his funeral and were very good to me. I have a high regard for the profession and the people who choose to pursue it. I also have high expectations for cops. I defend good cops and good policing. But “good” means different things to different people.

So I haven’t been a cop, but I’ve been around enough of them to observe the spectrum of people who become cops. I’ve also been on enough ride-alongs to understand something of how the job works. 

I think I have a pretty open mind about policing, in general. There are a number of policies and practices that are worth reevaluating. It’s very easy to fall into the trap of believing that the way we already do things is the best it can be. It’s a trap because if you already think everything is fine, there is no reason to even consider improving. I’ve seen some of the possibilities for different policing in the many cops I have known.

I’ve known cops who made it a priority in their careers to not point their weapon at people. They made it a priority to not hurt people. And if they can accomplish it, they are proud of it. They genuinely see themselves as public servants. People in the neighborhoods they patroled know them as allies, not enemies.

But there are other cops who pull their weapon at the slightest provocation - or none at all. Everyone is a threat to them. They take crime personally. Arrested people offend them - as if they committed a crime just to piss off that cop. The Constitution is something that is in their way - not something to be respected. Civilians in general are a lower form of life. Mental illness is a joke to them. They openly fantasize about getting into gunfights. These are the kind of cops who have pointed their guns at my head - at traffic stops. 

And I haven’t even touched on the racist cops - the cops who openly believe that just being black is probable cause.

These different kinds of police officer are in conflict within a department. There is a LOT about policing that needs reform, but because of this conflict, it will never come from within.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
9.2.10  Ozzwald  replied to  Tacos! @9.2.9    2 weeks ago
Look, my dad was a cop and a single parent, so I grew up in a police station. Cops were my baby sitters and extended family. And when my old man died, literally hundreds of them came to his funeral and were very good to me. I have a high regard for the profession and the people who choose to pursue it. I also have high expectations for cops. I defend good cops and good policing. But “good” means different things to different people.

Good = subjective?  Yeah, I'd agree with that generally.

So I haven’t been a cop, but I’ve been around enough of them to observe the spectrum of people who become cops. I’ve also been on enough ride-alongs to understand something of how the job works.

Me too.  Except I have also graduated from 2 separate police academies.  Just never pursued it.

I think I have a pretty open mind about policing, in general. There are a number of policies and practices that are worth reevaluating.

Not only re-evaluated but simply updated.  Things change.

It’s a trap because if you already think everything is fine, there is no reason to even consider improving.

Agreed.

I’ve known cops who made it a priority in their careers to not point their weapon at people. They made it a priority to not hurt people. And if they can accomplish it, they are proud of it.

Don't know about making it a priority, but making it the final option, I'd agree.  And feel that it should be a last resort.

But there are other cops who pull their weapon at the slightest provocation - or none at all. Everyone is a threat to them. They take crime personally. Arrested people offend them - as if they committed a crime just to piss off that cop. The Constitution is something that is in their way - not something to be respected. Civilians in general are a lower form of life. Mental illness is a joke to them. They openly fantasize about getting into gunfights. These are the kind of cops who have pointed their guns at my head - at traffic stops.

I think you've taken it to extremes, but would agree that some cops have a bully mentality and actually enjoy the physical altercations.  It was called the "John Wayne Syndrome" when I was involved.

And I haven’t even touched on the racist cops - the cops who openly believe that just being black is probable cause.

Good, since I believe we both agree on them.  They cannot be removed from the department fast enough.

These different kinds of police officer are in conflict within a department. There is a LOT about policing that needs reform, but because of this conflict, it will never come from within.

Here I disagree, it has come from within, but the difficulty in pushing reform, and having all the officers accept and follow those reforms, is almost insurmountable.  The departments talk the talk, but the officers usually fail to walk the walk.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
Masters Participates
10  r.t..b...    2 weeks ago

Just another example of the need for how we address policing.

How hard would it be for every patrol car and every call have a trained mental health specialist on site?

It would be a simple win, win...foremost for the safety of the public and also to mitigate the liability of our law enforcement professionals. 

No one can reasonably argue that the status quo is acceptable. 

Training, training, and more training...not only on the shooting range but in the more relevant importance of de-escalation.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
10.1  Tacos!  replied to  r.t..b... @10    2 weeks ago
How hard would it be for every patrol car and every call have a trained mental health specialist on site?

It wouldn’t be hard. We just need the will to do it. It’s also a good idea to prioritize this kind of thing because so much crime is related to mental health issues.

 
 
 
Duck Hawk
Freshman Silent
10.1.1  Duck Hawk  replied to  Tacos! @10.1    2 weeks ago

Congratulations Tacos, You just gave the definition of the Defund the Police movement. Thank You, now that you understand that police are not trained to handle mental health issues maybe we can SHIFT FUNDING from police to mental health agencies to deal with/ assist with those kinds of calls.

Defund the police doesn't mean to fire police it means to put the funding in the appropriate areas to better serve the community.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
10.1.2  Tacos!  replied to  Duck Hawk @10.1.1    2 weeks ago
maybe we can SHIFT FUNDING from police to mental health agencies to deal with/ assist with those kinds of calls.

One of the problems with the movement,though, is this kind of messaging. It’s a zero-sum argument that turns people off. Most people don’t want hear about shifting resources away from police response or protection, but they might support additional funds to improve how we respond to people struggling with mental illness who commit crimes. It doesn’t need to be all or nothing, one way or the other.

 
 
 
Duck Hawk
Freshman Silent
10.1.3  Duck Hawk  replied to  Tacos! @10.1.2    2 weeks ago

Most communities, especially small and or rural ones, are limited by the amount of $ they have to finance these things. Shifting $ from policing to mental health would ultimately save those communities in jail time for those types of offenders. Police might also take advantage of the mental health services offered to assist with the stress of their job. I.E. reduce the issue of domestic violence among the police. IMHO

 
 
 
Duck Hawk
Freshman Silent
11  Duck Hawk    2 weeks ago

And yes all these PIGS (they demonstrated they aren't responsible police officers nor are they decent human beings) involved in this crime -including the attempted cover up- need to be tried and do jail time if found guilty. Yes they attempted to cover it up by letting it "disappear." It was reported to "the blue team," the internal investigative unit, when it first happened and they did NOTHING. 

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
PhD Guide
12  Paula Bartholomew    2 weeks ago

My father had senile dementia.  He loved the local Pic N Save (now Big Lots) and could spend hours there.  I used to get some very strange care packages while in the Army from his trips.  As his dementia worsened, he began putting things in his pockets and forgot that he did.  My mom worked out an arrangement with the store.  Every time he came home, she would go through his pockets, call the store to find out the cost, and she would go pay for them.  She would throw in an extra five bucks.

 
 
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