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Texas law gets rid of mandated rest breaks for construction workers : Shots - Health News : NPR

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  kavika  •  last year  •  53 comments

By:   Hannah Levitan, Investigative Reporting Workshop (NPR)

Texas law gets rid of mandated rest breaks for construction workers : Shots - Health News : NPR
In June, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott signed a law undoing local protections that ensured breaks for laborers who spend their days in scorching heat. The law takes effect Sept. 1.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


July 21, 202310:00 AM ET

By

Hannah Levitan, Investigative Reporting Workshop

Austin, Texas, construction workers dig on a hot day in August 2021. Last month, Gov. Greg Abbott signed a bill that overturns local ordinances in some Texas cities that mandate regular rest breaks for such workers.

Blaine Young/Public Health Watch

A week after construction workers in Austin, Texas, learned they were about to lose their right to rest breaks, the city reached a record-high heat index of 118 degrees. From July 9 to 19, the state capital saw an unprecedented, 11-day streak of temperatures reaching 105 degrees or more.

The Austin-Travis County Emergency Medical Service has responded to 410 heat-related incidents just since June 1, according to a spokesperson, Capt. Christa Stedman. Among them: A middle-aged man, working outdoors, who called for help after experiencing signs of heat exhaustion.

"It progressed so quickly into heat stroke that, between the time he called 911 and the time that the paramedics arrived on scene, he was fully unconscious and his core temperature was over 106," Stedman said.

Construction worker Mario Ontiveros risks the same outcome. Because he works in Dallas, a local ordinance gives him the right to at least a 10-minute rest break every four hours. But this is the last summer he'll get to claim it.

On June 13, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott signed HB 2127 — the Texas Regulatory Consistency Act — which bars cities and counties from passing regulations that are stricter than state ones. It also overturns local rules such as ordinances in Austin and Dallas that mandate rest breaks for construction workers. The law takes effect Sept. 1.

Suffering from heat with no way to take time off


Dallas implemented its rest-break ordinance in 2015. Three years before that Ontiveros lost feeling in his arm after painting high school stadium stairs for more than 10 hours in 112-degree heat, he told Public Health Watch through a translator.

"The other workers called paramedics and I was rushed to the hospital, where I spent seven days battling tendonitis," Ontiveros, 61, said. "Aside from the physical and emotional trauma of recovering from an illness exacerbated by extreme heat, I was out seven days of work, with no help from work to pay my medical bills."

While doctors recommended that he stay home to recover, Ontiveros said it wasn't financially possible. He spent several years in physical therapy but said he still has to be careful, especially in the heat. "It's changed my life," he said, "but I've had to learn to deal with it ..."

Giving workers a break


State Rep. Dustin Burrows, the Republican from Lubbock who authored HB 2127, said in a press release that the law is needed to end "the current hodgepodge of onerous and burdensome regulations." But for construction workers in two of the state's fastest-growing cities, advocates say, it poses serious health risks.

"We know that workers do pass out and experience heat stress and different types of heat illnesses," said Daniela Hernandez, state legislative coordinator for the Workers Defense Action Fund, a Texas-based advocacy group that pushed for the rest-break ordinances.

Surveys of Dallas construction workers before the city's ordinance was adopted found that 33% said they didn't receive rest breaks and 66% said they didn't receive water. At least 53 Texas workers died from heat-related illnesses between 2010 and 2020, according to a 2021 investigation by NPR, The Texas Newsroom, The California Newsroom, Public Health Watch and Columbia Journalism Investigations.

Research published in 2018 — eight years after Austin passed its rest-break ordinance — found that construction workers were 35% more likely to get a break because of the rule.

"[HB] 2127 is a huge overreach on part of the state and it takes away things like rest breaks that we know save lives," Hernandez said.

Preventable heat-related illness


Dr. Ronda McCarthy, an occupational health specialist and medical director at health care provider Concentra in Waco, said heat illnesses and deaths are preventable.

"There's much more than just the ambient temperature," she said. "You have to think of so many other factors like what these workers are wearing — their hardhats, protective clothing, respirators — or whether they're in direct heat or [if] they get shade."

McCarthy said without rest-break rules, many workers may be afraid of losing their jobs if they speak up about needing a respite from the heat.

Just five states — California, Colorado, Washington, Minnesota and Oregon — have worker heat protections on the books. There is no occupational heat rule at the federal level, though one is in the early stages of development.

"By the time you start experiencing the symptoms of heat stress, you're on the way to some very dangerous medical conditions," said Debbie Berkowitz, a worker safety and health policy expert at Georgetown University and former chief of staff at the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

HB 2127 — which critics and supporters call the "Death Star Bill" for its power to obliterate local control — will also strike down construction-worker protections in southeast Texas, said Paul Puente, executive secretary of the Houston Gulf Coast Building and Construction Trades Council. Earlier this year, the Harris County Commissioners Court unanimously adopted a Contractor Safety Record Policy, which requires managers and workers on most county construction projects to get safety training.

While labor unions can still negotiate for rest breaks, Puente said HB 2127 will negatively impact construction safety as a whole.

"Science has already shown that individuals need to have time to take a break, collect their thoughts, and then return back to work to ensure a safe working environment," he said.

Without allotted rest breaks in extreme heat, he said, workers can easily become fatigued, disoriented, dehydrated — effects that endanger their lives.

An 'unsafe state' for workers?


This is the reality for Ontiveros and others in his field. Ontiveros said he once saw a co-worker lose consciousness and fall from a ladder. Having received safety training, Ontiveros was the only one on the job site who knew how to help — performing CPR and asking his co-worker basic questions to keep him conscious — until paramedics arrived, he said.

Texas is "an unsafe state [for workers] because enforcement has been dialed back, regulations have been dialed back," Puente said. "And when you're trying to encourage businesses to come to your state, this is not a good look."

Dallas' 2015 rest-break ordinance was adopted shortly after the death of Roendy Granillo, a local construction worker who succumbed to heat stroke and whose family said he was denied a requested break.

More recently, a Texas Observer investigation reported that in 2021, construction worker Antelmo Ramirez died from heat stroke while working on Tesla's Gigafactory just outside of Austin's city limits in Travis County. The temperature on the day Ramirez died was 96 degrees; his internal body temperature was more than 10 degrees higher.

The risks of extreme heat for construction workers are only going to increase. John Nielsen-Gammon, the Texas state climatologist, said the number of 100-degree days per year has doubled over the past several decades and will continue to rise.

Texas' hot season is also getting longer, McCarthy said.

"I used to consider it May 15 through September 15," she said. "And now it's May 1 through September 30."

Public Health Watch reached out numerous times to Abbott, Burrows and state Sen. Brandon Creighton of Conroe — who sponsored HB 2127 in the Texas Senate — but none would comment on the rollback of the rest-break ordinances.

"We are not robots," Ontiveros said. "We are humans, and we deserve to go to work without worrying if we're going to make it back home on hot summer nights."

This story was originally produced by Public Health Watch, a nonprofit investigative news organization based in Texas. Hannah Levitan is a reporting intern with the Investigative Reporting Workshop in Washington, D.C.

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Kavika
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Kavika     last year

This makes no sense, per the article the author of the bill says it will rid the state of a hog pog of laws. If that is true then the state should institute a law that covers all of the state of Texas. 

I would hope that the companies that employ construction workers have the intelligence to set their own standards and have breaks for the workers.

One has to think if Abbott or Burrors ever worked outside in 100 degree heat. 

 
 
 
Thomas
Masters Guide
1.1  Thomas  replied to  Kavika @1    last year

I thought that 15 minutes for every 4 hours was a regulation on the federal level? 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Thomas @1.1    last year

According to the article, it isn't. 

 
 
 
Thomas
Masters Guide
1.1.2  Thomas  replied to  Kavika @1.1.1    last year

Well that just sucks. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.3  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Thomas @1.1.2    last year

Indeed it does, Thomas. I would hope that the companies have break times for their employees. 

 
 
 
Thomas
Masters Guide
1.1.4  Thomas  replied to  Kavika @1.1.3    last year

Maybe they are considered independent contractors and as such aren't employees... 

 
 
 
GregTx
Professor Guide
1.1.5  GregTx  replied to  Thomas @1.1    last year

The last company I worked for it was 15m per hour for temps over 98, if I remember correctly. The current company I work for doesn't have a reg that I'm aware of, just if it's hot, use your judgement.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
1.1.6  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Thomas @1.1.4    last year

No. There is no mandate for breaks but they must be paid up to 20 minutes. It really isn't a law. More like guidance.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
1.1.7  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Thomas @1.1    last year

I haven't been able to find anything in 29 CFR (OSAH Regulation).  Seems even they feel the need to leave that up to employers.  You know, common sense stuff.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.8  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @1.1.7    last year
OSHA and NIOSH recommend the "Rule of 20 percent" for building heat tolerance:
  • 20 percent First Day: New workers should work only 20 percent of the normal duration on their first day.
  • 20 percent Each Additional Day: Increase work duration by 20 percent on subsequent days until the worker is performing a normal schedule.
OSHA is currently working on a heat stress program.
 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
1.1.9  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Kavika @1.1.8    last year

Thanks.  Like I said I couldn't find it.  I think I was looking for the wrong keywords.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2  devangelical  replied to  Kavika @1    last year

maybe abbott thinks if all their brains get dry roasted, they'll be more likely to vote republican...

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.2.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  devangelical @1.2    last year

I have no idea what Abbott or the author of the bill are thinking. It doesn't seem to be needed and I've not found anything about the state instituting a state-wide law that would protect outside workers.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.2.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.2.1    last year
I have no idea what Abbott or the author of the bill are thinking.

They are thinking that forcing small contractors to keep track of dozens of different local statutes is cumbersome and stupid.

They are also thinking that there are hundreds of municipalities with no ordinace whatsoever, yet people have functioned quite nicely many years because blue collar guys are not actually complete morons and know how to manage the heat. 

They are also thinking how bizarre it is for politicians who have never done physical labor in their lives to think they know more about it than the people who do it every day.

It doesn't seem to be needed

Apparently it was needed to protect small businesses from political grandstanding.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.2.3  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.2.2    last year
Apparently it was needed to protect small businesses from political grandstanding.

Apparently, that supposed reason is more than enough to leave workers unprotected. 

Heat   causes more deaths   in the United States each year than any other extreme weather. And in Texas, at least   42   workers   died   of heat exposure between   2011   and   2021 , according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, though labor advocates say the number is much higher because other causes are cited in many deaths. A   2021   investigation   by NPR and Columbia Journalism Investigations found nearly   400   workers had died of environmental heat exposure in the previous decade, with Latino workers — who make up much of the nation’s farm and construction workforce — disproportionately affected.

A number of states currently have such laws and more are in the process of instituting them. The Feds have started working on a national policy for this. Sadly, Florida like Texas thinks that it will inconvenience businesses to possibly save a life.

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
1.2.4  evilone  replied to  Kavika @1.2.1    last year
I have no idea what Abbott or the author of the bill are thinking.

It's an excuse by a conservative state legislature to take more control of liberal cities. Curbing the work break laws was the low hanging fruit to test it's merits and pleased the business donor class.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.2.5  seeder  Kavika   replied to  evilone @1.2.4    last year

Bingo

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
1.2.6  evilone  replied to  Kavika @1.2.5    last year

It doesn't take a MESA candidate to understand where this control is coming from. Where these state legislatures can minimize the liberal effects of large urban islands it looks good for conservatives in the short term. Longer term they are just going to over play their hand and piss off enough moderates to start flipping more state seats. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.2.7  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.2.3    last year

42 people over a decade.  4.2 people per year, out of how many hundreds of thousands of workers?

I'm just not sure we need a law on that.

They're over 100 times more likely to die falling off something.

Look.. the city ordinance in Austin requires a 10 minute break every 4 hours.  If you actually follow that in 100 degree heat, you won't make it to the first break anyway.  It's just nonsense.

So we're not actually protecting workers.  We're just creating paperwork so air conditioned liberal politicians can claim they're protecting someone.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.2.8  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.2.7    last year
Look.. the city ordinance in Austin requires a 10 minute break every 4 hours.  If you actually follow that in 100 degree heat, you won't make it to the first break anyway.  It's just nonsense.

Now some states are changing that 10 minutes every 4 hours to ''as needed'' which I do agree with. 

So we're not actually protecting workers.  We're just creating paperwork so air conditioned liberal politicians can claim they're protecting someone.

See my response in 1.3.3 to that bs comment.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.2.9  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.2.8    last year
Now some states are changing that 10 minutes every 4 hours to ''as needed'' which I do agree with. 

Serious question... if we're going to say "as needed", do we really need a law?

Aren't we basically saying "use your judgment", which is what they're doing anyway?

See my response in 1.3.3 to that bs comment.

Your whole objection to this is just BS. 

It's just Texas and Abbott, so you assume it must be wrong.

But you are actually trying to argue that it's better for politicians to make decisions than it is for experts on the ground to make them.  It's ridiculous.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.2.10  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.2.9    last year
Your whole objection to this is just BS. 

In your mind.

Serious question... if we're going to say "as needed", do we really need a law? Aren't we basically saying "use your judgment", which is what they're doing anyway?

The law would say ''as needed'' which makes all companies have to abide by the law. If they need water break once an hour that is what as needed would mean.

Your whole objection to this is just BS. 

What nonsense, if that is the best you have, pack it in.

It's just Texas and Abbott, so you assume it must be wrong.

Since the article is about Texas and Abbott of course I'm addressing the article and IMO Texas and Abbott are wrong.

But you are actually trying to argue that it's better for politicians to make decisions than it is for experts on the ground to make them.  It's ridiculous.

I'm not arguing that at all, as you well know. In instances that companies do not have a safety rule covering it then the local or state entity would protect those workers. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.2.11  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.2.10    last year
The law would say ''as needed'' which makes all companies have to abide by the law. If they need water break once an hour that is what as needed would mean.

Who decides "as needed"?   Do you not see the problem here?

Since the article is about Texas and Abbott of course I'm addressing the article and IMO Texas and Abbott are wrong.

And yet you keep agreeing with them.

I'm not arguing that at all, as you well know.

Then once again, you agree with Abbott. 

In instances that companies do not have a safety rule covering it then the local or state entity would protect those workers. 

You've heard of these people called "OSHA", right?

 
 
 
Thomas
Masters Guide
1.2.12  Thomas  replied to  Jack_TX @1.2.7    last year
42 people over a decade. 4.2 people per year, out of how many hundreds of thousands of workers?

It really doesn't matter because it is only 4.2 people per year? Just let the callousness of that statement sink in. 

When you kiss your honey and say goodbye to your children they expect you to come home. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.2.13  Jack_TX  replied to  Thomas @1.2.12    last year
It really doesn't matter because it is only 4.2 people per year?

Cite me saying so.

Just let the callousness of that statement sink in. 

Or..... read what I actually wrote, for a change.

When you kiss your honey and say goodbye to your children they expect you to come home.

Math would be your friend if you would let it.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
1.2.14  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thomas @1.2.12    last year
It really doesn't matter because it is only 4.2 people per year? Just let the callousness of that statement sink in. 

Exactly, zero risk regardless of cost.  We also need better ways to enforce and punish riskier like mobile phone use while driving, unprotected non-monogamous sec, riding a bicycle without wearing a helmet, not wearing a seatbelt when in a car, driving or riding in cars with drivers who had been drinking or high, vaping or smoking, joining the military, eating unhealthy or failing to exercise significantly, etc.

 
 
 
Thomas
Masters Guide
1.2.15  Thomas  replied to  Jack_TX @1.2.13    last year

It was implied when you stated the law was unnecessary.

Many times more workers are affected by heat exhaustion and heatstroke than actually die, and they are the ones who are intended to be helped by the laws as well as those who die. 

The presence of a bare minimum does not imply a strict maximum,  which is what you implied when you stated 

Look.. the city ordinance in Austin requires a 10 minute break every 4 hours. If you actually follow that in 100 degree heat, you won't make it to the first break anyway. It's just nonsense.

It is only nonsense if you don't do it. There are some who will work because it is expected (by themselves or others) up to and past the point of sensibility. Some people will work and not even realize that they are making themselves ill until something happens and they are overcome. 

The presence of the bare minimum is to make everyone aware that they have the right and duty to remain hydrated and to keep their core body temperature down.  It is not saying "the law says ten minutes per four hours and that's all you're taking" which is what you implied when you stated that the laws were virtue signaling by politicians. Sometimes politicians actually have the well being of their communities in mind.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1    last year
If that is true then the state should institute a law that covers all of the state of Texas. 

Isn't this it?

I would hope that the companies that employ construction workers have the intelligence to set their own standards and have breaks for the workers.

They have been for decades, so it seems unlikely they'll all stop now.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3    last year

So why did Abbott and the author pass this bill. The local city governments had instituted them for a reason, doesn't Abbott think that is legit? I saw the reasoning that they don't want a hog pog of laws and the easiest way to do that is have a state law that covers the stitution state wide. 

Some companies do not follow the best safety precautions if it will cost them money. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.3.1    last year
The local city governments had instituted them for a reason

Yeah.... political reasons.  The whole "protect the workers" shtick plays very well with wealthy liberals who generally spend every hour in the air conditioning.

Some companies do not follow the best safety precautions if it will cost them money. 

Very few companies, because, as you say, it does cost them money.  

Breaks are far less costly than ambulance rides.  Not to mention what happens to your workers compensation premiums.  And frankly, before you even get to any of that, your guys will leave to go work somewhere else.

If you are a skilled tradesman in Texas right now, you can have a new job in an hour.  If you're unskilled, you can have one in a day.

The guys these ordinances supposedly "protect" want to be able to make their own call on the jobsite.  

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.3  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.2    last year
Yeah.... political reasons.  The whole "protect the workers" shtick plays very well with wealthy liberals who generally spend every hour in the air conditioning.

Let me address that BS comment directly. My corporation had very strict safety requirements and we enforced them and we were not a bunch of wealthy liberals sitting in air conditioning many of us had years of working the docks under our belt. And we had numerous large operations in Texas but to us, our employees meant more than just being a body. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.4  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.3.3    last year
Let me address that BS comment directly. My corporation

Let's address this BS comment directly 

Your corporation setting its own rules is different than a city council setting them for you.

we were not a bunch of wealthy liberals sitting in air conditioning many of us had years of working the docks under our belt. And we had a large operation in Texas but to us, our employees meant more than just being a body. 

Amazing how that worked.  Guys who actually knew what the fuck they were doing set the rules that governed safety for the employees, who were highly valued.

But you guys must have been the ONLY corporation that cared about your employees and understoodhow to make them safer.  Nooooobody else ever does.  FFS.

So what you are arguing now is that you should never have been allowed to make those decisions.  They should have been made for you by city councils around the country all establishing their own sets of rules written by people with no clue about your industry.  Great plan.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.5  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.4    last year
Your corporation setting its own rules is different than a city council setting them for you.

Not really since both covered the safety of employees.

Amazing how that worked.  Guys who actually knew what the fuck they were doing set the rules that governed safety for the employees, who were highly valued.

True and it's better than know nothing politicians like Abbott and the author of the law sitting on their asses in air con making decisions.

But you guys must have been the ONLY corporation that cared about your employees and understoodhow to make them safer.  Nooooobody else ever does.  FFS.

I never said that or insinuated it. If you're trying to make a point, do better.

So what you are arguing now is that you should never have been allowed to make those decisions.  They should have been made for you by city councils around the country all establishing their own sets of rules written by people with no clue about your industry.  Great plan.

Not arguing that at all, don't make assumptions it makes you look foolish. You are aware of that government agency called OSHA, right? They make rules for many industries and Texas abides by them it seems that there, currently, the feds are working on ''heat breaks'' and I would guess that Texas will follow them when they are instituted. 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
1.3.6  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kavika @1.3.5    last year

NIOSH has standards that OSHA may adopt and make a federal mandate. Right now they are only guidelines

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.7  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.3.5    last year
Not really since both covered the safety of employees.

Sure.  Right.  Why would expertise matter?  I mean... the Dallas City Councilman got 2200 votes out of a million people.    

True and it's better than know nothing politicians like Abbott and the author of the law sitting on their asses in air con making decisions.

Why would their decisions somehow less valid than the Mayor of Dallas? 

Abbott and Co are basically telling Eric Johnson (and the other mayors in question) he doesn't know anything about workplace safety and he should stop trying to meddle in shit he doesn't begin to understand.

I never said that or insinuated it. If you're trying to make a point, do better.

The point being that current employers don't need any more supervision than you did.  They care just as much, they are just as capable, and in Texas.. know much more about dealing with heat. 

Not arguing that at all,

So then you're OK getting rid of these bullshit city ordinances that don't help anybody anyway.  Excellent.  We agree.

You are aware of that government agency called OSHA, right?

I live in Dallas.  I absolutely promise you OSHA knows more about workplace safety than the Dallas City Council.  Don't you think we ought to let them handle it? 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.8  Jack_TX  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.3.6    last year
NIOSH has standards that OSHA may adopt and make a federal mandate. Right now they are only guidelines

See... I think that's the way it needs to happen

Most government agencies have a very deliberate set process for adopting and implementing new regulations.  It involves multiple rounds of input windows where people affected by the rules can have input, ask questions, present hypothetical situations, and generally exchange expert points of view with government employees who are usually experts themselves. 

When the regulations are adopted, they tend to make sense and they are uniformly implemented across the country.  Contractors do not have to worry about special documentation requirements for certain municipalities and risk fines or failed inspections because they didn't realize they needed to log everybody's breaks within the city limits or some other daft nonsense like that.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.9  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.7    last year

The response to your first two comments would be, what makes Abbott an expert in any of this perhaps he should keep his nose out of it.

The point being that current employers don't need any more supervision than you did.  They care just as much, they are just as capable, and in Texas.. know much more about dealing with heat. 

The point is not the companies/employers that care for and have rules pertaining to heat breaks but those that don't and in my experience in Texas they exist just as they do everywhere in the country.

I live in Dallas.  I absolutely promise you OSHA knows more about workplace safety than the Dallas City Council.  Don't you think we ought to let them handle it? 

I don't see what living in Dallas has to do with OSHA. I lived in Dallas as well. In our facilities throughout the US, we dealt with OSHA on a daily basis as well as safety regulations from the ICC and FMC.

So then you're OK getting rid of these bullshit city ordinances that don't help anybody anyway.  Excellent.  We agree.

No, we don't agree as you well know.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.10  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.8    last year

The new rules have been worked on since 2021 and as with any large agency it could take a few more years to get them implemented and if there is a change in administration it could all be for nothing.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.11  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.3.9    last year
The response to your first two comments would be, what makes Abbott an expert in any of this perhaps he should keep his nose out of it.

Exactly.  He is keeping his nose out of it.  He's also keeping Eric Johnson's.  And Sylvester Turner's.  And Kirk Watson's. 

The point is not the companies/employers that care for and have rules pertaining to heat breaks but those that don't and in my experience in Texas they exist just as they do everywhere in the country.

Well... those companies obviously do exist, but as you've already reported, even those guys seem to keep from killing off their employees with heat stroke.  We know this because there is no break ordinance in places like Round Rock or Southlake or Kingswood, and yet construction goes on splendidly well, even without useless government intervention.

I don't see what living in Dallas has to do with OSHA.

Read the statement again.  

No, we don't agree as you well know.

You're in favor of bullshit city ordinances that don't help anybody anyway? 

OK, in that case, why not have a Dallas City ordinance making sure these guys all wear shoes on the job?  Every employer will need to document that their outdoor workers are wearing shoes.  We could require a log with photographic evidence captured every 90 minutes.

Because we all know that if the City doesn't mandate it, the contractors are not smart enough to make it happen.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.12  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.3.10    last year
The new rules have been worked on since 2021 and as with any large agency it could take a few more years to get them implemented and if there is a change in administration it could all be for nothing.

Possibly. 

That's not a reason for the City of Austin to make up their own shit, especially when adhering to their rule would be far more dangerous than what the professionals are actually doing.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.13  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.12    last year
Possibly.  That's not a reason for the City of Austin to make up their own shit, especially when adhering to their rule would be far more dangerous than what the professionals are actually doing.

In your opinion.

 
 
 
Thomas
Masters Guide
1.3.14  Thomas  replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.12    last year

You mean that they will take the stated minimum and "Poof " presto chango make it the hard and fast maximum?  That is what you are implying throughout this thread. Rather than seeing the rules as an attempt to set a bare minimum of "you've got to at least do this" you interperate the laws as setting the standard for workers across the board. 

Some communities care more than that, and as such have implemented regulations accordingly.  

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.15  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.3.13    last year

Yes Kav, it is my concerted opinion that we should not make rules that result in fatalities if followed.  It is also my concerted opinion that regulation should be left to people who understand what they're regulating.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.16  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.11    last year
Exactly.  He is keeping his nose out of it.  He's also keeping Eric Johnson's.  And Sylvester Turner's.  And Kirk Watson's. 

And what makes you think that he has any expertise that the Johnson's, Turner's and Watsons don't have. 

Well... those companies obviously do exist, but as you've already reported, even those guys seem to keep from killing off their employees with heat stroke.  We know this because there is no break ordinance in places like Round Rock or Southlake or Kingswood, and yet construction goes on splendidly well, even without useless government intervention.

Good to know that Southlake, Kingswood and Round Rock encompass all areas that do not have an ordinance. Oh, I never reported any such thing about them not killing off their employees. Geez stop with the BS

Read the statement again.  

So OSHA knows more than the Dallas city council. Good to know now that OSHA has started a procedure in 2021 we can wait for how many more years before it's implemented?

In the real world, however, OSHA standards generally takebetween eight and 10 years to become final. One serious drawback in the standard-setting process is that a standard being developed as a priority for one administration is often not a priority for the next.

OK, in that case, why not have a Dallas City ordinance making sure these guys all wear shoes on the job?  Every employer will need to document that their outdoor workers are wearing shoes.  We could require a log with photographic evidence captured every 90 minutes.

Because we all know that if the City doesn't mandate it, the contractors are not smart enough to make it happen.

Ah, a bit of sarcasm good show. We also know that a percent of contractors will avoid taking safety precautions for their employees so it becomes imperative to protect those workers from the POS that would do such a thing. When they are caught doing that I would suggest a Scarlet Ribbon and put them to work picking cotton in West Texas in July without a break.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.17  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.15    last year

Jack, it is my opinion born from the experience of actually doing hard labor working in very hot temps that every bit of protection is well warranted. 

There is nothing like working the belly of ship in 90 degree heat. In the belly of the beast the temp being 105 to 110 heat throwing stocks of bananas onto a conveyor belt to get them top side. Ah yes, the good old days but on the up side we had breaks as needed and plenty of water close by and it was union work, a dirty word to most but a life saver to those that had to experience it. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.18  Jack_TX  replied to  Thomas @1.3.14    last year
You mean that they will take the stated minimum and "Poof " presto chango make it the hard and fast maximum?

Meaning they cannot possibly function without far exceeding the ordinance, rendering it useless except for providing "opportunities" to produce additional paperwork.

  That is what you are implying throughout this thread. Rather than seeing the rules as an attempt to set a bare minimum of "you've got to at least do this" you interperate the laws as setting the standard for workers across the board. 

The ordinances are attempts to make air-conditioned white liberals feel better and enable them to virtue signal.  

Some communities care more than that, and as such have implemented regulations accordingly.  

Exactly my point.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.19  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.3.16    last year
And what makes you think that he has any expertise that the Johnson's, Turner's and Watsons don't have.

I don't think any of them have any business regulating construction.  Abbott agrees.

Oh, I never reported any such thing about them not killing off their employees.

Of course you didn't.  Because it isn't happening.  That's the point.  Math.  If the ordinance(s) actually mattered there would be a difference in the number of heat related fatalities between places with an ordinance and places without.

So OSHA knows more than the Dallas city council.

Now we're getting there.

Good to know now that OSHA has started a procedure in 2021 we can wait for how many more years before it's implemented?

Once it actually is implemented, it won't suck.  It will be data based.  It will have been developed with the help of experienced professionals.  I cannot imagine you think that's a bad thing.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.20  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @1.3.17    last year
There is nothing like working the belly of ship in 90 degree heat.
In the belly of the beast the temp being 105 to 110 heat throwing stocks of bananas onto a conveyor belt to get them top side. 

I think Texas roofers might argue that over a beer or twelve, but we'll suffice it to say you've put the time in.

Ah yes, the good old days but on the up side we had breaks as needed and plenty of water close by

Exactly.  You had to.  No bananas get loaded if we're carrying guys out on a stretcher every 30 minutes.  Lo and behold, you managed all that without the local city council's involvement.  They weren't needed then and they're not needed now.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.21  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.20    last year
I think Texas roofers might argue that over a beer or twelve, but we'll suffice it to say you've put the time in.

I suppose that any roofer in AZ, NV or SC could argue the point as well.

Exactly.  You had to.  No bananas get loaded if we're carrying guys out on a stretcher every 30 minutes.  Lo and behold, you managed all that without the local city council's involvement.  They weren't needed then and they're not needed now.

Actually, it was mandated by the ILWU master contract so city councils didn't have to step in. They also mandated welders gloves that reached up to your elbows, hot as hell but it kept you from being bit by banana spiders which are venomous.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.22  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.19    last year
I don't think any of them have any business regulating construction.  Abbott agrees.

It's good that you and Abbott agree do either of you have the experience to disagree?

Now we're getting there.

Actually, I've never said that the council knows as much or more than OSHA, but what I do know is that the average for an OSHA requirement to be enacted is 7 to 8 years. So we have anywhere from 5 to 6 years before it happens.

Once it actually is implemented, it won't suck.  It will be data based.  It will have been developed with the help of experienced professionals.  I cannot imagine you think that's a bad thing.

Yes, I agree it will be a good thing once it's developed and implemented which on average is 7 to 8 years. Times a wasting, get moving. And I can't imagine that you would imagine that I would think it's a bad thing.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.3.23  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.18    last year
The ordinances are attempts to make air-conditioned white liberals feel better and enable them to virtue signal.  

I have to comment on that. I'm not air conditioned and I'm certainly not white in any way and part liberal on some issues but not liberal on others...Just to clear things up, Jack.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
2  Drinker of the Wry    last year

Exactly, like Lebowski said,”yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3  seeder  Kavika     last year

Locking the article until this afternoon. If there is any interest I'll reopen it then.

 
 

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