Hating Israel will not free Palestine
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
An important milestone in the Israel-Hamas war was reached last week, with both parties agreeing to a hostage-for-prisoner swap and a humanitarian pause in fighting.
This may be a glimmer of hope in the physical warfare of the Middle East but there has been no such let up on the post-truth Western front, where hyperbole and lies are sowing the seeds of hatred at the expense of peace.
This is because what the Free Palestine movement really wants is not for Israel to cease its military action but to cease to exist at all.
Let us not forget that pro-Palestine celebrations erupted around the world on October 7 before Israel had responded forcefully to Hamas' grotesque attacks. Let us not ignore that they marched again this weekend under the guise of demanding an Israeli ceasefire, even though there already is one.
The joy and peacefulness of Sunday's 100,000-strong march against anti-Semitism compared to the violence and hostility of the Free Palestine protests is further proof that the latter are not pro-anything as much as they are anti-Israel.
The widespread, blind hatred of Israel is so severe that some Palestine supporters cannot muster up an ounce of sympathy for kidnapped Israeli children, ripping down posters of hostages. Feminists cannot bring themselves to denounce Hamas' mass rape of women, with UN Women taking seven weeks to publish an Instagram post condemning Hamas' barbarity - and then deleting it within moments, replaced with a toned down version calling for an investigation into "reports of gender-based violence". Palestinian-American model Gigi Hadid recently shared a video on Instagram accusing Israelis of harvesting dead Palestinians' organs, posting it to her 79 million followers - five times the number of Jews in the world. Amnesty International, while demanding the release of all hostages, appeared to draw specific attention only to those from Thailand.
The truth is, there is plenty to criticise Israel for - and many Jews and Israelis do. Its expansion of settlements and treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, for one. Israelis were protesting against Benjamin Netanyahu this very weekend, as they were all year before October 7 had the unintended effect of uniting a factious country.
It is the leap from "Israel must change" to "Israel must die" that reveals the toxicity at the heart of the Free Palestine movement. As a non-Jewish friend said to me this week: "When I criticise Indian policy in Kashmir, no one seriously thinks that India shouldn't exist or should be destroyed."
Criticising Israeli policies and politicians is not antisemitic. Denying Jewish indigeneity to the land and considering the entire country an occupation is.
Lamenting that too many people have been killed in Gaza is not antisemitic. Falsely accusing Israel of committing "genocide" when Hamas has explicitly said it will not stop until Israel is annihilated is.
Refuting hard evidence - such as the record of brutalities on October 7 or the existence of Hamas tunnels under hospitals - in favour of nonsensical conspiracy theories is antisemitic. Singling out the world's only Jewish state as a bad actor and turning a blind eye to true horrors happening elsewhere is antisemitic. Seeing Israel as pure evil while describing the grotesque crimes of its terrorist enemy as "justified resistance" is not only antisemitic but perverse.
Taking these extreme positions does nothing but fan the flames of hate and obscure any chance of either side achieving a positive outcome. Until this vitriol subsides, there will be no progress towards peace. Those determined to see the issue in only black and white ignore the vast grey area where valid criticism and reasonable debate could force change on both sides.
The blinkered Free Palestine movement must ask itself honestly: what is the actual goal here? They chant "from the river to the sea" and brazenly call for intifada - the word used for the years of Palestinian suicide bombs at Israeli bus stops and cafes - but what would these look like in reality?
Assuming they do not actually intend to massacre Jews, do they expect seven million Israeli Jews to up sticks and leave? Where does it expect them to go? The majority of Israeli Jews are either from this very strip of land or from other Middle Eastern and North African countries that have killed or expelled their entire Jewish populations in the last century and would not welcome them back now.
Do they expect two million Arab Israelis used to living with equal rights in a modern democracy and thriving economy to accept autocratic, tyrannical leaders who subjugate women and quash freedom of expression? Do they expect 800,000 or so LGBT people to happily give up their rights? Will the high tech start-ups pack up their offices so Hamas can move its HQ to Tel Aviv's skyscrapers?
A better use of Free Palestine's time would be to help build a future nation, not try to tear one down.
It is true that in 1948, around 700,000 Palestinians lost their homes.
It is also true that, from 1948 onwards, 900,000 Jews were forced to flee their homes in Arab countries. This came just a few years after millions of Jews were killed or displaced in eastern Europe. My maternal grandparents, for example, moved to Middlesbrough from Leipzig and to Buenos Aires from Vienna in the late 1930s; my paternal ancestors had fled Russia a generation earlier, settling in London's East End and Edinburgh. There's barely a Jew in the world who doesn't have a story like this in their recent history. Yet we do not consider ourselves refugees. We do not hold the current inhabitants of those countries responsible or call for their destruction.
Palestinians, on the other hand, have been trapped in refugee status for 75 years. They are the only people with a United Nations agency dedicated solely to their refugeehood (UNRWA); all other refugees in the world fall under another body, UNHCR. UNRWA, which is the UN's largest agency, does not share UNHCR's mission to repatriate or resettle people so they are no longer refugees. Instead it has redefined the status of refugee, applicable only to Palestinians, so that their descendants for unlimited generations - including adopted children - can also register as refugees. That is why 700,000 Palestinians were displaced in 1948 but there are six million Palestinian refugees today.
The Israeli writer Yuval Noah Harari said the curse of history is that people try to save the past instead of saving the future.
Palestinians yearning for pre-1948 life is neither realistic nor particularly ambitious, given the land actually was governed then by white colonialists. There was never a sovereign state of Palestine before 1948, but there can be one today. For this to happen, supporters of both sides must bury their venomous hatred, eschew extremist positions and accept the legitimate existence of their neighbour.
A free Palestine predicated on the destruction of Israel is an empty dream. The only workable outcome is a two-state solution where Palestine has sovereignty and Israel has security. Anyone not working towards that goal has no intention of making peace at all.
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How true.
a continuous conflict in the middle east is to the financial advantage of the religious extremists on both sides.
As witnessed by all the times that the Palestinians have rejected any two-state solution in negotiations. The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937.
The Peel Commission report of 1937 was bound to be turned down:
Then we moved on to the British Mandate and of course the Jews attacked the British, with the Stern Gang, Igran, and Lehi terrorist groups. Probably the most famous attack on the Brits was the blowing up of the King David Hotel which killed around 90 to 100 people.
Then we move on to the next attempt dividing the land and again it was turned down because of the amount of land given to the Jews who had a smaller population then the Palestinians. And off everyone went to war.
And after a couple of more wars here we are today.
The Peel Commission report of 1937 was bound to be turned down:
Well, the offer was not as bad as you make it sound. The Jews who lived there managed to turn a huge hunk of the Negav into fertile ground and Jews lived in both Gaza and the West Bank and live off the land. So sometimes if you get lemons....
The Stern Gang, et al, were not the majority of Jews living there. And they were thugs. But by the same token at around the same time, the Grand Mufti was meeting with Hitler on how to cleanse the land of Jews, so let's realize that there are two sides to every story.
That is true and it wasn't just the Stern Gang there was also the Igran and Lehi. The Haganah was outside of those groups and were not terrorists. The decision by the Palestinians not to accept the partition is logical considering the time period, 1937. It was the Igran and another group led by Began that massacred the Palestinians at Deir Yassin which led to Haganah sending a message to King Abdullah apologizing with Abdullah turned down and the war started shortly thereafter.
As for the meeting between the Grand Mufti and Hitler, there been many stories on this, in fact, some time back Netanyahu made a false claim about it and got his ass handed to him. For a clear view of what was said here is a link to the official record between the Grand Mufti and Hitler, fascinating to say the least.
so let's realize that there are two sides to every story.
I agree, everyone should realize that.
The Gaza Strip is amongst the most valuable areas!
Why? because its prime Meditteranean coastline. Very upscale resorts could be developped there. it could bring in huge income. (Not only wealthy tourists in general--but specifically Arabs from the oil rich Gulf states-- not only prime seafront but it would be a place with run by Arabs-- where Arabic was spoken and Arab culture.
There could be great prosperity in the Gaza Strip.
Fertile land is better than desert. But seafront Meditteranean property developped with luxury resorts would bring in much more money than agricultural areas.
Yes, that is true but 1948 was a vastly different time.
Politically different. But Meditteranean frontage still has the potential.
And financially different, world power and thought processes different.
Indeed it does, but 80 years difference between then and now. I do understand your point but I'm not sure that anyone was thinking that far ahead, Krish.
I'm sure there are some Palestinians who do want a two state solution-- i.e. who want their own state.
But the fact is-- they already have one-- Gaza. Israel is now fighting a war there-- but before that, for years, Gaza was not occupied (in fact there wasn't a single Jew in the entire place-- it was run by Palestinians. So it was (and still is) an independent country.
They have their country (it consists of all of Gaza). Now they may claim they want more land, but the fact is they already have self rule!
Time to hold Palestinians at least PARTIALLY responsible for their fate.
They need to reject Hamas and any other terrorists.
If they continue to fail to do so, then the consequences will be deserved.
And no, I am not advocating for civilians to be killed, but I am advocating for civilians to at least take an interest in what happens to them.
I agree. But who's going to do that?
Certainly not the U.N.
Over the years its become more and more obvious that they really don't want their own state. Rather, what they want is a judenfrei Middle East.
After the first Arab-Israeli war, Egypt ended up occupying the Gaza strip (1949-1967)--- up until the 1967 War when the occupation by Egypt ended by Israel and was then replaced by the Israeli occupation of Gaza.(Israel unilaterally withdrew in 2005-- since then the Gazans have self-rule.)
Of course during the Israeli occupation there was a lot of complaining about the Israeli occupation although inter4estingly during the Egyptian occupation the Arabs didn't complain. (Because, obviously, it wasn't about the Gazans having self-rule, but rather the Arabs and their friends just didn't want the Jews to rule it).
,
I recently came across this video-- its Netanyahu clarifying these issues. In this video he really explains the situation quite well.
But what I found interesting is that its from 1978! (He was so young-- when I first saw it I didn't believe it was him...).
It will have to be Israel.
Doesn't look as though the Palestinians will be doing it themselves any time soon, although one would like to think they would tire of being shields for Hamas.
There are groups working towards that:
Village of Peace inn Dimona Israel
Also the network of Hand-in-Hand schools in Israel,
Also the Seeds of Peace Camp, Maine USA
(These are just a few . . . )
How is this two-state solution supposed to work out? Israel is not going anywhere until Hamas is pretty much decimated. Without Hamas, the Palestinians are going to learn to live with and among the Jews, as many already do. So for the time being, they will be occupying Gaza. Then will come some kind of coalition government, still controlled by Israel.
I don't know, do you have any ideas?
Israel may kill a lot of Hamas members but you cannot kill an ideology, it will re-appear in a different set of terrorists or Hamas will come back. ISIS has the Taliban has it doesn't die unless the people fight it. Israel occupied Gaza for a number of years as did Egypt it didn't work out for either one of them and you cannot have a a government controlled by Israel, it won't work.
So how would a two state solution benefit Israel exactly?
If they follow the Saudi Arabia plan from the early 2000s with some modifications it would guarantee their security and the Palestinian area would be rebuilt.
Better than another couple of hundred years of war between them.
guarantee security?
I think that's rather laughable considering the mindset of Palestinians.
Have you read the SA plan? The mindset of Palestinians is not all the same, many support Israel and are in the IDF.
For the last 70 plus years nothing else has worked, they can keep on that road or try to move in another direction.
Palestinians have rejected every offer ever made to them.
Israel will never be safe as long as Palestinians align with terrorists.
Hamas aims to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
Until Palestinians can show that they are no longer aligned with Hamas, they will continue to be the planned collateral damage due ONLY to Hamas planning it.
Which Palestinian leaders should Israel try to negotiate with? Who speakers for those Palestinians with the peaceful mindset?
Maybe Israel can strike a deal with Palestinian-Israelis, just don't have any hope for it.
From the river to the sea, let Israel’s destruction be!
Looks to me like Hamas represents them.
Do you know why they turned down the Peel offer in 1937 or the first UN Offer?
And herein lies a major portion of the problem. Israel is also in the West Bank and there is Hezbollah and also on the Lebanese border with Israel and other smaller terrorist groups.
So if they destroy most of Hamas what is next to go after Hezbollah, which is many times bigger than Hamas and with many more weapons.
There is no easy solution, but if something along the lines of two state solution all sides are locked into an eternal war and eventually one side will be over run just by the sheer numbers of the other side.
a 2 state solution will never work as long as terrorists are allowed to exist
Neither of them can accomplish that objective.
Sadly, terrorists have exsisted for hundreds of years around the globe, they are not going away.
Agree, they can only continue what they’ve been doing to Gazans and Israelis for 2 decades.
While I agree with a two-state solution, the Palestinian leadership has turned down several good offers. All they had to do was accept Israel, which they declined to do. I think it will take a change in leadership to change that direction.
IMO, the two-state solution is the only thing that will work, but as you said it will take a change in leadership in Palestine and also with Israel.
I'm not a fan of Netanyahu, but at least he is rational. His biggest problem is the religious right. Also, this is very personal, since the loss of his brother.
Netanyahu encourages the right it's his support base, so, IMO if he stays as PM there is no way there will be a move toward two state solution.
Yes, things can get personal.
Why would Palestinians suddenly change course after decades of rejecting every offer?
How does a two state "solution" protect Israel from the terrorists still sworn to end them?
Perhaps you can explain how the current situation is going to give Israel protection. Do you think that Israel can destroy Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbolla/Houties and numerous other terrorist groups? Or they can occupy the WB and Gaza with 5/6 million Palestinians with 9 million people.
These attacks and wars have been on going for close to a hundred years and they have not provided a solution.
As you know, Palestinians have rejected every offer made.
Proving once again you can't negotiate with terrorists.
The option for a 2 state solution doesn't provide ANY security for Israel. It has been offered up several times with several different leaders and has failed. Every. Time. Hamas and all their predecessors have vowed and acted in support of Israel and it's allies to being destroyed.
And yet here, you appear to be defending them.
You are aware that there are a number of two state solutions, aren't you? One that was presented by the Saudis in the 2003 I believe it was was workable and did have provisions in it for security for Israel.
All two-state solution have indeed been turned down. You could do some research and find out why first two were turned down.
So, being turned down doesn't mean they are dead in the water. New leadership for the Palestinians could change that.
The current ''solution'' hasn't worked for close to a hundred years.
And here you are commenting without knowing what your talking about.
Jeremy,
That is not a defense for Hamas. That is a way of trying to push forward to a lasting peace. Now it is true that deals were offered to the PA (never Hamas. Israel doesn't negotiate with terrorists) that were turned down, it might be true that this can be arranged if Hamas is destroyed. A two-state solution is really the only way, with the absence of Hamas. Once the Palestinian people see how sweet peace can be, there might be a lasting peace.
What has been done over there for the past 75 years (more actually) has not worked. It is time for something new.
Most of the "conservatives" on this site seem to want to kill most of the Palestinians and then the ones who are left will live under a strict Israeli regime.
You know what that will produce? 75 more years of sporadic violence.
Oh?
Did it outlaw terrorists like Hamas?
Did it impose any penalties for harboring terrorists?
You must be reading from a different site then.
Many of us recognize the fact that you can't negotiate with terrorists.
Many of us recognize that Hamas has ruled Gaza and done absolutely nothing to promote even a minute's worth of peace with Israel.
Some of us also recognize that Palestinians have largely cheered on Hamas and done NOTHING whatsoever to remove them from their midst.
Its not his "problem", he agrees with the goals of the religious right as regards the Palestinians.
It would be best if you looked it up so you can study and critique it.
Too much work.
I did look it up, which is why I am asking you how it protects Israel, because I can't find it.
Don;t get snarky with me.
You are aware that failed just like every other attempt, aren't you? So why keep beating that dead horse?
Then why keep with the dumbfuckery claiming that is the only option. It doesn't take a lot of research to see that the Palestinians / PLO / Hamas or what ever they want to be called this week do not want peace with Israel. How many times to they have to declare it before it sinks in?
Because if we beating that dead horse it just might get up and prance for us.
Oh look, a petty personal attack.
Alright, I will bow to your obvious 'expertise'.
Show me where in the proposal it protects Israel.
Or is that too much work?
There is no "push forward to a lasting peace" with terrorists.
It has been within their grasp for years. Yet they CHOOSE to support the terrorists.
Looks like it was too much work.
Or maybe it is just very, very hard to find what isn't there.
Said the pot to the kettle...LOL
Isreal exists. Seems to be working pretty well.
I doubt your plan to reward Hamas for murdering and raping civilians plan will work as swimmingly.
You must be mad as hell at how WWII, the Civil War etc. was fought.
Keep on avoiding that which you claim is there and so easily seen.
Hey, we can't really blame him for what Biden is doing--funding terrorism--even though he probably deserves some of the blame as a Biden supporter.
So, instead of trying to work and find a solution you feel they should just destroy Hamas, is that correct? Then when they destroy Hamas they can move on to Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad and the Houties. Since none of them will be destroyed they will reconstitute or another terrorist group will take their place and thousands more IDF soldiers will die.
IMO, it is. If you don't like my opinion don't read it and since your opinion is KILL, and let Allah sort them out when are you going to figure out that that has been tried for close to a hundred years and hasn't work? How many times do they have to follow this road before it sinks into your head that it doesn't work?
Not a personal attack simply a fact. You, being the person that makes accusation of me being sympathetic or supporting Hamas, the height of hypocracy. LOLOL.
Any "solution" that does not include destroying Hamas is pointless.
I read your comments and put them in the mental circular file.
Doing the same thing that has been done for 75 years doesnt work.
Hamas is not capable of ending Israel's existence. Israel's existence is guaranteed by the United States of America ( the most powerful country in the history of the world) , and it's stated foreign policy.
And how well has it "worked" for Israel? They occupy the land millions of non-Israelis live on. There are repeated and fairly regular outbreaks of "war" between themselves and the people they occupy. Israel's reputation has been eroded internationally by their need and desire to continue this occupation.
Do something different.
Americas political right hates Muslims, and that is a big part of what their view of this conflict is based on.
Now you are catching on. There is no negotiating with terrorists.
Then give a workable solution that hasn't already failed several times.
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You cant argue with people whose whole plan is "bomb them, jail them, drive them into the wilderness, kill them, and humiliate them.
You cant argue with people whose thought processes begin and end with those sentiments.
or with folks who refuse to recognize facts
That's fine. I remain gobsmacked any serious adult can believe platitudes and rewarding terrorists for taking hostages will magically create a peacful shangra la in the mid east. It just flies in the face of common sense, the history of the middle east and a basic understanding of human nature and how people respond to incentives. How many times does Hamas's leadership have to promise to inflict more 10/7s on Isreal for you to actually believe them? IInstead you want to make it easier to ensure that it happens again.
And how well has it "worked" for Israel
It exists as a prosperous democracy, survived attempts to destroy it, and offers a better life to its citiznes than 99.9% of humanity has ever experienced. The world is a messy place and perfection unattainable. IT's the people who refuse to recognize that and believe in creating utopias who end up killing the most people.
Do something different.
Again, great plan. Give Hamas what it wants because it's "different" and then you can act surprised when it does the same thing and takes more hostages.
Americas political right hates Muslims, a
America's left hates Isreal and believes Muslims are sub human so they refuse to hold them to any standatrd. Just read what you write. Instead of demanding Hamas stop killing jewish civilians, you blame Isreal for not letting their citiznes be murdered/raped by those Muslims who just can't be expected decently. The American right at least recognizes Muslims are full fledged humans with agency.
Oh, come on, man!
If Israel did everything Hamas wanted(short of self-destruction), we all recognize Hamas would STILL be trying to kill Jews.
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We are now at a point where believing a country should defend itself and do what it can to prevent future attacks after it suffers thousands of casaulties in an unprovoked assault is "war mongering". Thank god we didn't have idiots in charge after Pearl Harbor demanding a cease fire after a couple weeks.
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I am not going to waste my breath replying to you, other to reiterate that the past 75 years have not worked. .
it has worked just fine when Israel isn't getting attacked by terrorists.
Pretty weird, huh?
The thinking that Israel's occupation of millions of people for decades will lead to peace is what is weird.
thinking that giving in to terrorists is wise is what is especially silly.
please outline all the times Israel has attacked anyone without provocation.
I am sure Israel would love to live peacefully, but the damn terrorists simply won't allow it.
Im not going to waste my time with you either.
expected response when no valid argument can be made, thanks.
And it would only be a waste of your time if you didn't learn anything.
Non-occupation didn’t seem to work either.
Unlike you, I have family who live there and have all served. My kid and her now hubby went on birthright and were bombed at the airport, and stayed on in defiance. Please don't Monday quarterback with me.
The Israelis want peace and that is why they keep attempting to make a two-state solution. The issue is their leadership. Hopefully, the people will grow sick of them and throw them out, or Israel will root them out.
Who chose? The PA decided everything for them the last time. It was never brought to a popular vote. I mean if you are going to talk about this, know the facts.
So if Bibi's replacement wants to negotiate with the Palestinians, who is there to negotiate with?
Correct there isn't that is why I've stated that a change in leadership is required. Oh, I've also mentioned that Israel has the right to defend itself and if that includes destroying Hamas so be it.
You should follow your own advice since your solution has failed for close to a hundred years.
So you see me and my comments as supporting Hamas, you should probably take your blinders off. I would never expect you to care or correct that accusation. Shooting blindly seems to be your MO and it's best for your comment to stay where the members on NT who actually know something about the situation can laugh at such an ignorant statement.
Well, I can't speak for the Israeli government and for that matter, no one here can, but I would guess, it would be after Hamas is removed, and probably the PA, which would mean Abbas. Abbas wants to take over Gaza.
But then again, this is all speculation.
Well, a thought process requires a bit of knowledge of the subject which seems to be missing in most of their comments.
Isn't Mahmoud Abbas, an 88 year old, completely corrupt autocrat that hasn't ever shown any interest in a settlement?
And you the same.
And the Palestinians turn it down. With different leadership. So why keep up with the insanity?
Did you forget that Hamas was voted in as their government? It's not a secret that they were a terrorist organization then just as it is not a secret now.
It's been 70+ years and the leadership has changed. The results haven't. They. Don't. Want. It.
On that we agree. But as you've seen there are those railing against Israel for doing just that.
You do realize you contradict yourself don't you?
No Abbas and Hamas turned it down. As I said, it never went to the Palestinian people for a general vote.
Here is an interesting fact about the one and only election held in Gaza:
The election yielded a shock victory for Hamas , which won the most seats with some 44 percent of the vote. Lara Friedman, president of the Foundation for Middle East Peace, which advocates for rapprochement and peace between Israelis and Palestinians, recently observed that in no single district in Gaza did Hamas win a majority of votes.
So we have no idea of what the actual people wanted.
Such facts have no attraction for the right.
As far as I can see, most American conservatives, and some moderates, ascribe to the Smotrich "decisive" offer to the Palestinians which originated about 5 years ago. They can choose between
1. Leave Palestine (Israel) .
2. Accept permanent second class citizenship in an occupied territory.
or
3. Be destroyed as they resist.
Amazingly, the political right in Israel believes these three choices would lead to peace. As does the American political right.
How much of what OUR government does goes to a general vote of the people? Short answer - ZERO. Yet you expect me to believe that your contradictions make sense somehow? Either the duly elected government represents the people or they don't.
So you DO get it that the Palestinians voted for Hamas and their government. But expect me to believe they don't represent the people.
2. Accept permanent second class citizenship in an occupied territory
Nothing is permanent
I don't think that it will lead to peace, but for the foreseeable future, regardless which Party controls the Israeli Parliament, the best possible outcome that I can see includes:
Israel occupies land that was given to the Palestinians at the 1947 partition plan. They occupy that land because a) they won it in the 1967 war, and b) because they say occupation is necesssary for Israel's security. Inside that occupation Palestinians live as permanent second class citizens.
Maybe Israel has some sort of "right" to the West Bank because they won it in a war. But is it wise to continue to occupy a place with millions of second class status people living there? It can only breed resentment and revolt.
Hamas won 74 of the 132 seats.Such facts have no attraction for the left.
You do realize that your position has also had leadership changes and the results haven't changed the outcomes. It's still a loser.
I posted that after your disgusting comment that I supported Hamas and yes I have seen some people railing against which is their right whether any of us agree with it or not.
No, not at all I just pointed out a fallacy in your argument.
I don't disagree wrt resentment and revolt.
At the same time I see:
Israel will continue to face does face limited, sporadic threat from Palestinian attacks in Israel, West Bank and Jerusalem
Israel doesn't have any major threat from its neighbors.
Sounds just like the beliefs of Hamas, the PLO, Iran and others who will only accept the complete annihilation of the state of Israel.
I think that part of the problem is that there are people on both sides that want a Palestinian State-- and those that don't. The Palestinians already have a Palestinian ruled state-- its Gaza. But they don't want to admit that they have self-rule because then they can't play victims (by pretending they don't have self rule). Gaza is already Palestine!
But they want to play the victim by claiming they want a state but nasty israel won't let them have it. And the truth is a lot of Palestinians don't want their own country-- because their never was a "Palestinian" nation anyway. It was never a nation-- it was always a geographical area (like, for example, "New Englanders" or "Southerners" in the U.S.-- vaguely defined geographical areas, but not nations with their own language, ruler, currency, religion, etc)
And in terms of "you can't kill an ideology"-- that ideology is to eliminate the Jews. Also that it must be done violently.
You mean kind of like what we did to stop Naziism in WWII?
Or worse-- dropping nukes on Japanese civilian areas?
Of course none of that worked (/sarcasm)
That is semi true, Krish. With Israel/Egypt having an embargo and their inability to leave Gaza it isn't a country since if it was then Israel/Egypt are committing an act of war against it.
Yes, exactly my point, Krish just look to the Taliban or ISIS as survivors of an Ideology.
Which is also true of numerous countries. Especially Arab countries-- they "occupy" land where non-Arabs live-- even non-Muslims!
And in some cases there's even violence between Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims.(Most people are not familiar with the long, brutal Sunni vs Shia War-- Iraq vs Iran.):
The Iran–Iraq War was an armed conflict between Iran and Iraq that lasted from September 1980 to August 1988. It began with the Iraqi invasion of Iran and lasted for eight years . . .
Iraq also wished to replace Iran as the power player in the Persian Gulf, which was not seen as an achievable objective prior to the Islamic Revolution because of Pahlavi Iran's economic and military superiority as well as its close relationships with the United States and Israel.
The Iran–Iraq War:
The conflict has been compared to World War I in terms of the tactics used by both sides, including large-scale trench warfare with barbed wire stretched across fortified defensive lines, manned machine-gun posts, bayonet charges , Iranian human wave attacks ,
Iraq's extensive use of chemical weapons , and deliberate attacks on civilian targets. A notable feature of the war was the state-sanctioned glorification of martyrdom among Iranian children ; the discourses on martyrdom formulated in the Iranian Shia Islamic context led to the widespread usage of human wave attacks and thus had a lasting impact on the dynamics of the conflict. [52]
Slightly off topic - the cease fire for hostage and prisoner exchanges has been in effect for about a week now. Does anyone really believe that this pause has hurt Israel's war effort? They will pick up right where they left off. They should delay the resumption of the attack until all the hostages are free.
Does anyone think it hasn't? I can't think of a single example where a winning army decided to voluntarily stop fighting to allow a losing enemy a chance to regroup/resupply/refortify. It will undobtedly result in excess Isreali deaths.
Does anyone actually think Hamas will honor the ceasefire and if so, based on WHAT?
In the 1973, on the holiest day of the year in Israel, the Egyptians and Arabs caught the IDF by surprise in the Yom Kippur war (in Egypt the fall it the Ramadan War). After suffering heavy initial losses, and heavily outnumbered, they turned it around.
They crossed the Suez, encircled the Egyptian 3rd Army and were 60 miles from Cairo. They also crossed the Golan Heights and were 19 miles from Damascus and the US made them stop and then withdraw.
With this pause, the world pressure on Biden to do the same again is rapidly growing.
As we've seen time and time again, they will honor it just as long and to the extent it serves their interests. I'm sure they'd happily accept a "permanent" ceasfire, which they will then violate in a couple of months when they are in position to resume the struggle on their terms. It's the same old story.
Rewarding Hamas with ceasefires just incentivizes them to take more hostages.
Ambassador Gilad Erdan said it succinctly today: "Anyone who supports a ceasefire basically supports Hamas's continued reign of terror in Gaza. Calling for both a ceasefire and peace is a paradox."
Well, yeah, but Israel.......
Not really, do you believe that Israel can destroy Hamas so they are no longer a threat to Israel? Like any ideology you can't kill it without the backing of the majority of people otherwise it is reconstituted again perhaps with another name or not.
Israel has not been able to stop the terrorism since they were formed as a country, if anything the terrorist have gotten larger and more deadly.
If another method isn't tried the wars will continue until one side is simply over run.
Exactly and that’s Israel’s responsibility since we know that the Palestinians and the Arabs are incapable.
As stated. a two state solution will never work as long as one side is intent on killing the other.
There are Arab countries that are quite capable and my point is that population-wise the Israelis will be greatly outnumbered at some point.
This pause may free 250 people and will not hamper Israel's war efforts. It is amazing how ready many people are to write off the hostages. Thank God some of them have gotten out so far.
If Hamas were a equal or sort of equal military opponent to Israel the ones who object to the pause might have a point. But hamas is not. Pausing to let hostages be freed makes all the sense in the world.
It will be interesting to see how many Israelis are killed by Hamas animals when they break the ceasefire.
Sure hope it is fewer than the number of hostages taken.
If you just declare it, I guess it must be true. Thousands of years of history just got thrown out the window.
Good thing Robert E. Lee didn't think of this strategy in the Civil War. Anytime he needed to dig in, re supply etc.. he could have sent his calvary to round up some hostages and enjoy the benefits of an indefite cease fire. The Conferederacy would still exist today.
Pausing to let hostages be freed makes all the sense in the world.
Except to the people who die because of it.
And if the trades for the hostages are not done the ones that die will be the hostages. Collateral Damage.
Maybe Israel is weighing the cost of capitulation to terrorists vs. the cost of wiping them out.
You understand if you reward terrorists for taking hostages, they will just take more as soon as they free this batch, right?
There's a never ending supply of potential hostages to trade for the ability to keep raping, bombing and murdering Isrealis forever.
And they aren't "collateral damage". They would be murder victims killed by animals who lack basic human decency.
Everything would be hunky dory if Israel would simply give in to every Palestinian demand.
And then annihilate itself, along with every Jew.
That could be.
Hamas is bottled up in Gaza.
I am sure the hostage families are happy you are nowhere near that region.
Weren't they allegedly bottled up before Oct. 7 in an "open air prison"?
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You understand that the Israelis have been taking hostages/prisoners for years some under ''administrative detention'' don't you?
Indeed, Israel has over 10,000 currently.
If the decision is made by Israel to continue the bombing and the hostages are murdered, than it will be looked at as ''collateral damage''.....And then Netanyahu can explain to the families how it works.
How that you've vented and have offered no alternatives I take it as your solution is to kill all the bastards and let Allah sort them out and that will include a good number of Israelis dying as well.
The problem is that hasn't worked for close to 100 years and there is no sign it will work now.
Israel isn't fighting just terrorists they are fighting an ideology and you cannot kill and ideology. Is ISIS or the Taliban dead, nope they are back at it again.
So until both sides decide to try to find a solution the killing will keep on and the more terrorists the Israelis kill the more terrorist you've created and within Israel, the more hate and vengeance will grow with every Israeli Hamas kills.
Because of Netanyahu Israel let their guard down prior to Oct 7.
Sure, makes perfect sense to blame an Israeli for the actions of the animals known as Hamas.
/s
Let's not forget the FACTS.
HAMAS broke the ceasefire and brutally, savagely attacked civilians, but of course you want to blame anyone BUT the perps!
Get lost.
Victim blaming?
No desire to join you.
You got me. Isreal and Hamas are doing the exact same thing. It's impossible to distinguish between the two.
Israel has over 10,000 currently.
Who they use as human shields, mistreat and threaten to murder in cold blood if Hamas doesn't capitulate to their demands. Another great point.
he hostages are murdered, than it will be looked at as ''collateral damage''
Only if you don't know what the word means. Murdering hostages is intentional murder.
ists they are fighting an ideology and you cannot kill and ideology.
Sure you can. They come and go, usually after being millitarily destroyed.
d vengeance will grow with every Israeli Hamas kills.
What feeling do you imaigne grows among Isrealis with every rape/act of torute hamas commits? Letting hamas murder enough Isrealis so they'll want peace doesn't seem like a plan most Isrealis will support.
We have all these bloodthirsty people who cant wait a couple weeks for the bombing to start up again. They may be disappointed though, there are reports that the Israeli army is going to shift to a more targeted operation involving smaller units, helicopters rather than missiles , and less use of tanks.
Wow, such a disappointment. Most of us want to see huge civilian casualties.
Whatever it takes to get rid of the terrorists!
Nice try, Sean but what you failed to do was post what your prescription for peace or and two state solution or any solution for that matter.
I'll ask once again do you have an idea or are you here to vent and act like a keyboard warrior?
If this is your solution, spit it out and move on or actually try to come up with an idea.
Fertility rules and few are as fertile as the Palestinians.
As long as they're not there firing the bullets....and having bullets fired back at them
Uh...
No...I don't another taunting ticket
Hamas is bottled up in gaza
they just murdered three Jews and shot 13 others in Jerusalem this morning,
Any more excuses to make for them?
Just one excuse after another.
Weren't we told that Gaza is a big open air prison?
Animals who are rabid get put down.
Time to put down the Hamas animals.
We also have all these people gullible enough to think a 2 state solution is possible.
And that Israel is somehow at fault for animals attacking it.
Is that what toppled Hitler and Japanese imperialism? (That the "majority of the population" -- German and Japanese-- suddenly decided they wanted Peace and Love? That "the majority of the people" spontaneously decided to stop fighting? )
I'm quite cognizant of the results of WWII, Krish. I believe we are looking at a very different situation with Japan it was the atomic bomb and they only surrendered because the Emporer told them to and he was considered God-like. The terms of surrender did not allow for any type of rearming and we were an occupying force for years thereafter and we wrote their constitution. Many Japanese soldiers did not hear the Emporer's message and went on fighting for years. Terrorism is an ideology where as Japan was a nation with a government and leaders. Much the same can be said of Germany, and I was one of the occupying forces there.
How many times have we been told that the Taliban has been destroyed and yet here they are back and in full force, the same can be said of ISIS.
When we speak of ideology not all are bad, think of our revolution it was an idea and ideology of individual freedom. We fought the greatest army in the world and should never won but we did and it was all an ideology and we certainly could be considered terrorists.
I forgot to add they there are still plenty of Nazi's around the world so that Ideology is alive and well, Krish.
Good point!
Violence is never the solution-- it didn't work against the German Nazi regime in WWII. neither did it work against Imperial Japan.
Not all of them:
While their people languish in poverty and are treated as human shields, the leaders of Hamas live billionaire lifestyles.
The terror group’s three top leaders alone are worth a staggering $11 billion between them and enjoy a life of luxury in the sanctuary of the emirate of Qatar.
Assuming that Hamas will free all the hostages. Mainly women and children civilians-- yes. But members of the IDF? Probably not.
And if they aren't?
How long should Israel wait?
What should Israel do if Hamas doesn't release them all?
Well, here's what Hillary Clinton said about Hamas-- and giving them a ceasefire.
Sitting back and typing on a computer about this and not having your wife, kids, or friends being held hostage by terrorists is fairly easy, it's just collateral damage in that view. Now if it was your wife, kids, and friends being held hostage the tune would change pretty quickly.
Of course it would, your focus would change from big picture to the impact on your immediate family.
“…to the impact on your immediate family.”
If only the leaders and the distractors would only put it into that context…this would be done.
Pretty hard when one side exists to kill Jews
Exactly, if my son had been in the IDF during the Yom Kippur War, I might not have wanted Israel to cross the Suez, or if it was the 80’s, not to go into Lebanon when the PLO were slaughtering there, or into Gaza when Hamas was sending suicide bombers among Israeli civilians during Infatada 2.
Yes, it would and to those who do not have family as hostages the hostages simply become collateral damage.
Yes, and elevating them increases the incentive for future hostages.
Yes, but this isn't the first time that hostages have been taken and traded for.
Israel has 10,000 Palestinian prisoners with around 1500 being held on ''Administraive Detention'' currently which means no charges are filed nor are they being told why they are being held and there is no time limit some have been there for years.
True, Hamas has pulled this before and will again as long as they exist.
No, and given this continued success, it won’t be the last time either.
Many westerners don't realize what life on a kibbutz is like. In the ones I've been own-- all the members are family. Everything belongs to everyone. (Many westerners don't realize it because they are democratic-- but a kibbutz is actually Communism in practice__ on of the few movements that have been able to have democratic Communism work. Elsewhere Communism by its very nature is not democratic).
The structure of a Kibbutz is hard to fullyunderstand unless you've lived on one).
That is very true yet there is in many parts of the US with the same situation only it is Native Americans. Our culture is much the same as those that live in Kibbutz. The reservation is the Kibbutz of America.
My pre-war art deco co-op in The Bronx was originally organized by Jewish Socialists who had been excluded by legal covenants from owning apartments elsewhere. In fact, all of the "Cooperative Apartments" in NYC are socialist structures similar to rural electric cooperatives and farmer's co-op cotton gins and grain elevators wherein the users, those who benefit, are also the shareholders...
Why does the Bronx or NWC still have such covenants? Why does the Dem city leadership allow them?
Still? Are you daft? Such covenants were legal and were used to exclude racial, cultural and religious minorities prior to the passage of The Civil Rights Bill of 1964. Wake Up! Sheesh. Sixty Years Ago!
"Pre-War" in NY real estate terms means prior to World War Two.
Wasn’t NYC Dem for decades, maybe a century before WWII?
What exactly is your point, except to derail the topic, to run down Democrats and New York and to relentlessly troll me personally?
cast dispersion on Democrats and NY
Dems are great doing it all by themselves.
Perfect! As if Peewee Herman and Rush Limbaugh had a baby!
EVERYONE GET BACK ON TRACK. ALL OFF TOPIC COMMENTS FROM NOW ON WILL BE DELETED.
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