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No, 150-Year-Olds Aren't Collecting Social Security Benefits

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  bob-nelson  •  yesterday  •  74 comments

By:   David Gilbert (WIRED)

No, 150-Year-Olds Aren't Collecting Social Security Benefits



Elon Musk claims to have found rampant fraud in the Social Security Administration.

There's a much simpler explanation.


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So... the other day, I said that Musk's claim that Social Security was paying benefits to 150-year-olds was due to a COBOL date-management glitch.

NT's Usual Suspect Fascists jumped on me, howling for a link. Here's a seed .




S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


original Elon Musk has repeatedly claimed that his so-called Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) project had uncovered massive government fraud when it alleged that 150-year-olds were claiming Social Security benefits.

But Musk has provided no evidence to back up his claims, and experts quickly pointed out that this is very likely just a quirk of the decades-old coding language that underpins the government payment systems.

Musk first made the claims during his Oval Office press conference last week, when he claimed that a "cursory examination of Social Security, and we got people in there that are 150 years old. Now, do you know anyone that's 150? I don't know. They should be in the Guinness Book of World Records … So that's a case where I think they're probably dead."

While no evidence was produced to back up this claim, it was picked up by right-wing commentators online, primarily on Musk's own X platform, as well as being reported credibly by pro-Trump media outlets.

Computer programmers quickly claimed that the 150 figure was not evidence of fraud but rather the result of a weird quirk of the Social Security Administration's benefits system, which was largely written in COBOL, a 60-year-old programming language that undergirds SSA's databases as well as systems from many other US government agencies.

COBOL is rarely used today, and as such, Musk's cadre of young engineers may well be unfamiliar with it.

Because COBOL does not have a date type, some implementations rely instead on a system whereby all dates are coded to a reference point. The most commonly used is May 20, 1875, as this was the date of an international standards-setting conference held in Paris, known as the Convention du Metre.

These systems default to the reference point when a birth date is missing or incomplete, meaning all of those entries in 2025 would show an age of 150.

That's just one possible explanation for what DOGE allegedly found. Musk could also have simply looked up the SSA's own website, which explains that since September 2015 the agency has automatically stopped benefit payments when anyone reaches the age of 115.

However, on Monday morning Musk doubled down, posting a screenshot of what he claims were figures from "the Social Security database" to X, writing that "the numbers of people in each age bucket with the death field set to FALSE!"

The figures suggested that over 10 millions people aged over 120 were collecting benefits.

"Maybe Twilight is real and there are a lot of vampires collecting Social Security," Musk wrote.

The database Musk took the screenshot from listed almost 400 million people, which is more than five times the number of people receiving benefits in 2024, according to the SSA's own website. It's also significantly more than the entire US population.

The fact that the Social Security system contains millions of entries from people who are dead is likely distinct from a potential COBOL-caused error, and also not news. A report written by the SSA's inspector general in 2023 found that 98 percent of those aged 100 or older in the Social Security databases are not in receipt of any benefits. The report added that the database would not be updated because it would cost too much money to do so.

"DOGE going into all these agencies with largely unfettered access with a wrecking ball and no understanding of the business logic and structure behind the code, database, and configured business logic, related payment systems, and integrated decision trees, poses real risks to the privacy and persona-level data of millions of people across all of those records," Thomas Drake, a former National Security Agency executive-turned-whistleblower, tells WIRED.

Musk, during the Oval Office press conference which was attended by his son, claimed the payments to 150-year-olds was part of the billions, maybe even tens of billions, in corruption and waste that his DOGE effort had already uncovered.

But just like condom shipments to Gaza or payments to Politico, Musk's claims of Social Security fraud seems to be a gross misrepresentation of what's actually happening and why.

In the same press conference where he made the remarks about 150-year-olds collecting Social Security benefits, Musk said his DOGE project would be "maximally transparent" with all savings being made posted to its website.

But when the site came online last week, not only was it just a repurposed Twitter feed with terrible security, it also lacked any details in a section dedicated to savings.

At the time, the site's administrators claimed the savings section would be updated no later than Valentine's Day. When that deadline came and went without any update, the administrator wrote: "Receipts coming over the weekend!" The page was briefly populated on Saturday before being taken down; at the time of publication on Monday, no receipts were posted.

"I do worry about bait-and-switch and further transfers of wealth and even more debt financing into the hands of even fewer, driven and riven by power and abject self-interest, not public interest," Drake believes. "Democracy is in real danger."

Neither DOGE nor the White House responded to requests for comment about Musk's claims.


Red Box Rules

Whatever

The a**holes who jumped all over me are free to offer apologies.


 

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Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
1  seeder  Bob Nelson    yesterday

The only thing that amazes me any more is that there are still people who don't understand that our Usual Suspect Fascists are worth wasting time on. They're nothing but trolls, obedient to their Brownshirt superiors.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.1  bugsy  replied to  Bob Nelson @1    yesterday

[]

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
2  Tacos!    yesterday

I keep hoping that when people hear this bullshit, instead of getting immediately outraged, they will stop to ask questions:

“What? That can’t be a real thing, right? Something else must be going on. I need to find out more before I get all emotional over something that sounds too absurd to be true.”

Sadly, far too many do not react this way. Because of some preexisting bias - in this case, our tribalist politics - they just instantly believe that they’re eating the dogs and cats in Ohio, or that millions of Social Security checks are being printed for people long dead, or LGBT people are all sexual predators, or Mexico will pay for a wall, or every bad thing that happens is because somebody hired a woman or a person of color. Even when the news comes from known bullshit artists like Musk or Trump - who between them, don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground - people just accept obvious nonsense as the truth, and won’t be told any different.

And then, based on these fantasies, they go out and vote. And here we are.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
2.1  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Tacos! @2    yesterday
I keep hoping that when people hear this bullshit, instead of getting immediately outraged, they will stop to ask questions:
“What? That can’t be a real thing, right? Something else must be going on. I need to find out more before I get all emotional over something that sounds too absurd to be true.”

You are as stupid as I. You operate on a notion of "truth" that is incompatible with our Usual Suspect Fascists'. "Truth" is whatever MAGA Propaganda Central Command decrees.

Duh!

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
2.2  evilone  replied to  Tacos! @2    yesterday
I keep hoping that when people hear this bullshit, instead of getting immediately outraged, they will stop to ask questions: “What? That can’t be a real thing, right? Something else must be going on. I need to find out more before I get all emotional over something that sounds too absurd to be true.”

In the case of my co-worker she will often use resources within her confirmation bias bubble to 'find more information' on something she may question. This is precisely the reason for the rise in populism today.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
2.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Tacos! @2    yesterday
“What? That can’t be a real thing, right? Something else must be going on. I need to find out more before I get all emotional over something that sounds too absurd to be true.”

That would be the rational intelligent response. Sadly, somewhere along the line, perhaps through inbreeding or just unchecked religious conservative indoctrination, close to half our nation traded in whatever rational intelligent part of their brain that may have existed for the more convenient, no work, simple minded acceptance of whatever conspiracy theory 'feels' right, no fact checking required. In fact, fact checking is seen as evil among these communities, something to be avoided and ridiculed. And once upon a time those who chose to stay uninformed and poorly educated and fearful of facts stayed in the shadows and were a bit afraid of their ignorance being exposed.

But not anymore! Now they are loud and proud of their ignorance. They flaunt their conspiracy theories and scream about the 'deep state' as if it's actually a thing, scream about liberals taking all their guns away and rounding them up into FEMA camps or smuggling undocumented immigrants across the border for drugs, child sex slaves and votes or gays trying to turn them gay with their gay agenda. These 'boogey men' that the irrational unintelligent Americans created in their teeny tiny minds have become real to that large group of uneducated bigoted morons and now they have a leader in dirty Donald who empowers them and tells them they're right, they're smart, they're the 'real Merikans!', which of course these lowest denomination dumb shits just love.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.4  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tacos! @2    yesterday

Tell us how Social Security knows when a recipient has died.

Give us the FACTS

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
2.4.1  Tacos!  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.4    yesterday
Tell us how Social Security knows when a recipient has died.

Why would you want me to tell you that? Have you tried Googling it? It doesn’t seem connected to anything I wrote.

Have you had parents die? When my folks died, somehow Social Security knew right away, but I neglected to ask them how they were so quick about it.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.4.2  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.4    yesterday

Quite a few sources report deaths to SSA:

  • From death certificates, the state informs SSA.
  • Funeral home directors report deaths.
  • Medicare, medicaid, etc. report deaths.
  • Family members and executors report deaths.
  • Financial institutions report deaths.
 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
2.4.3  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  TᵢG @2.4.2    yesterday

What it sounds like to me , is SSA has kept the records of EVERYONE who was ever enrolled in the system from back when it was first started  and started making pay outs .

It actually sounds to me like someone didnt look close enough  to see if payments were still being made .

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.4.4  TᵢG  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.4.3    yesterday
It actually sounds to me like someone didnt look close enough  to see if payments were still being made .

Pretty much a good summary of my position on the data errors.   This does not surprise me in any way.   In complex systems it is a certainty that errata will emerge if there is not a constant vigil to detect and correct errors / omissions / mistakes.

As for the payments, I have been interested to read evidence about this.   So far, we seem to have nothing.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
2.4.5  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  TᵢG @2.4.4    23 hours ago

Only reason i think what i do is i remember a few  yrs back there was a write up about a lady still drawing a survivors pension for a civil war soldier , seems she married a former confederate when he was in his 70s or older , when she was a teen , and was eligible to collect , and did so into the 2000s .

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.4.6  TᵢG  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.4.5    21 hours ago

Yeah, that rings a bell with me too.

On a related note, given the number of people we are dealing with, there is going to be some fraud.    Probably statistically insignificant, but the only way to find out is to do the hard job of analysis.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.4.7  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @2.4.2    16 hours ago

“When a Social Security beneficiary dies, the death is usually reported to SSA by a family member , a funeral home, or a government agency,” the site said. “Whoever does the reporting, according to SSA, the death should be reported as soon as possible. Often the funeral home will report the person’s death to SSA if the family gives them the deceased’s Social Security number.”

SSA also does not pay benefits for the month of the person’s death.

For family members to say nothing, and continue collecting Social Security benefits, is illegal.

How Social Security Knows When People are Dead - The National Interest

Many years ago, long before Trump, this subject came up. You see, once Social Security began electronically depositing payments into joint bank accounts this became an issue. So, the question is what happens if the family member sharing the deceased recipients bank account does not report the death and does not give a funeral home (who is not prone to ask for a SS number) the social security number of the deceased?

The answer is that the deposits keep coming. What Social Security tries to do is cross check those who reach the age of 100 with Medicare's database. Once someone over 100 stops submitting medical bills for doctor visits and medication the red flag is raised. Usually, a Social Security agent will then call the family and suddenly we have a confession and a deal to slowly repay the money. That is how they have functioned.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.4.8  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.4.7    12 hours ago
So, the question is what happens if the family member sharing the deceased recipients bank account does not report the death and does not give a funeral home (who is not prone to ask for a SS number) the social security number of the deceased?

You are now contriving rare circumstances.   Hopefully you recognize that you are now limiting the errors to a tiny minority.   But in this case, the family would have to NOT inform the deceased's bank of their death and continue using their accounts (assuming these were joint accounts, if not then the death certificate would have to be delivered to the bank) and credit cards.

Funeral homes today do indeed ask for a SSN because it is normal practice for them to create the death certificate (and file same with the government) and since 1996 it is a legal requirement to include the SSN on the death certificate.

They would also need to either NOT file taxes for the deceased or lie to the IRS pretending the deceased is still alive.  

They would also be unable to collect on life insurance (if any) since that requires a death certificate.

So, basically, the family would need to be criminals engaging in fraud against the federal government.

The answer is that the deposits keep coming.

Never disputed this.   I think we all know that the government will continue to write checks until there is an event (such as death) that stops this.   That is not the question.  The question is how much of this is going on.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
2.4.9  Split Personality  replied to  TᵢG @2.4.8    3 hours ago

I was reading an article by one of the previous COBOL guardians for SSN who said the whole thing is a farce.

Additionally all payments stop temporarily at age 100  and 109, permanently at age 115.

Reports in the past, most recently in 2015  suggested that the software flaws needed to state the obvious to 

"people like Elon" would cost  between $6 million to $11million for absolutely zero benefit to the public interest.

Records of people who haven't payed into the system or received benefits for over 50 years are dead.

It's that simple.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3  Just Jim NC TttH    yesterday

There is NOT a claim they are being paid only that they are still in the SS database meaning there COULD be some erroneous payouts. The numbers were an illustration of sloppy assed accounting within the department that makes a sane person question, "What else is wrong with the system?"

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1  TᵢG  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    yesterday

There are all sorts of errors in federal systems both automated and manual.   That is to be expected from an entity that can print money and is not worried about going out of business.

These kind of errors should not be news to anyone, much less surprise.

This is something that I certainly support DOGE doing.   Find things like this!   This is clear waste and can be easily corrected with minimal unintended consequences.   This is a perfect example of low-hanging fruit.   A clear win for the American people and something that Trump and Musk can brag about (which is ultimately all that Trump cares about anyway).

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3.1.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  TᵢG @3.1    yesterday
(which is ultimately all that Trump cares about anyway).

I was right there with you until that. The conjecture is not surprising.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1.1    yesterday
The conjecture is not surprising.

What is surprising is that there are people who cannot see this ... even with years of examples from Trump. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
3.2  Tacos!  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    yesterday
There is NOT a claim they are being paid only that they are still in the SS database meaning there COULD be some erroneous payouts.

if that is true, explain these quotes from Musk:

“According to the Social Security database, these are the numbers of people in each age bucket with the death field set to FALSE! Maybe Twilight is real and there are a lot of vampires collecting Social Security,"

.

“T his might be the biggest fraud in history,"

Or this response from Trump:

Trump recited the numbers from Musk's post during a February 19 investment conference in Florida, noting his administration was "finding tremendous abuse, waste and fraud in Social Security."

Or this line from Trump’s press secretary:

“President Trump has directed Elon Musk and the DOGE team to identify fraud at the Social Security Administration. They haven’t dug into the books yet, but they suspect that there are tens of millions of deceased people receiving fraudulent Social Security payments,”

Musk didn’t say there could be fraud. He gave the clear impression that fraud existed, and that it was so extreme, it might be the biggest in history. Trump didn’t say he was concerned about possible fraud. He said they were finding it. Leavitt said they genuinely suspect people are receiving payments, even though there is no evidence of that. Why not, instead, say, “at this time, we have no evidence that any of these people have actually had a check cut in their name?”

What else are people supposed to think?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
3.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    yesterday
There is NOT a claim they are being paid only that they are still in the SS database

Really?

"According to the Social Security database, these are the numbers of people in each age bucket with the death field set to FALSE! Maybe Twilight is real and there are a lot of vampires collecting Social Security ," Musk said in a  February 16, 2025 post  on X. " T his might be the biggest fraud in history, " Musk said in a follow-up post.

How would there be any "fraud" if he's not claiming the 150 year olds are being paid benefits?

"The record topper, there is one person on Social Security who is 360 years old ," Trump said Musk's claims of Social Security payouts to dead people lack evidence | Fact Check

When someone claims that someone is "on Social Security" only a complete moron would claim they are saying they are simply listed on the rolls and not receiving benefits. The claim Trump is making is that there is fraud and they need to gut it because of that fraud. So far, Trump and Musk have produced ZERO evidence of any of this fraud. The pics of lists they posted so far do not show anyone on the rolls getting paid benefits after their death.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3.3.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.3    yesterday

And are you telling all of us that there is NO fraud? And read my post again. Prehaps a refresher is in order.

There is NOT a claim they are being paid only that they are still in the SS database meaning there COULD be some erroneous payouts. The numbers were an illustration of sloppy assed accounting within the department that makes a sane person question, "What else is wrong with the system?"

256

 
 
 
George
Senior Expert
3.3.2  George  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.3.1    yesterday

To everyone that is saying "SSA doesn't pay someone that is 150 years old, they have a cut off age"...yes, you are correct, but that is NOT the problem with the incorrect files. SSA administers a Death Master File/Do Not Pay list (DMF/DNP) that is used by OTHER government agencies to stop payments processed by Treasury. With 20m people with no death date, payments would continue from these other agencies.

480680863_10164400920502437_7198234994740971518_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s720x720_tt6&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=p250FPTFnTcQ7kNvgEpSbW8&_nc_oc=AdgS7vGOBAa-kDAQOBQDanqngTmM9wW9wmyxp88B02MRPIzcA1VTTe2bvMZTwlIKMALKCVwJ0EygZHBQ0yJu5NYy&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&_nc_gid=AZSDnIS5Pi_XkhgO4QTD-Fw&oh=00_AYCKx9pk_4MFrBj3sTDQFKa98F1emWovAKqWb3A21gqqUg&oe=67BD4D27

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.3.3  TᵢG  replied to  George @3.3.2    yesterday

Is there anyone here arguing that errors in federal databases is NOT a bad thing?

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
3.3.4  bugsy  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.3.1    yesterday

Good chance there are quite a few people out there that failed to report someone in the family's death and continued to receive SS checks that are probably direct deposited into an account they have access to.

If that is true then these people need to be prosecuted and made to pay back, with interest, the amount they collected since their family member died. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
3.3.5  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.3.1    yesterday
And are you telling all of us that there is NO fraud?

Of course not, no where do I make that claim. But this is like a scam artist mechanic who comes out from under your car with hand's covered in grease and tells you that you need a new transmission, brakes, radiator, spark plugs and an oil change when the reality is all you needed was a tune-up and oil change. I'm not saying the Social Security Administration doesn't need a tune up and oil change, I'm saying they don't need to be gutted and rebuilt by a bunch of scam artist mechanics.

According to those who actually study the facts, the SSA has just 1% of improper or fraudulent payments. Yet here is Musk and his Geekstapo trying to fuck over those currently receiving benefits claiming they're "vampires" collecting SSA benefits which is just a WHOLE FUCKING LOT OF BULLSHIT!

I truly hope the SSA survives this and continues to provide benefits to the millions of seniors who need it.

How big of a problem is Social Security fraud? A July 2024 report from Social Security's inspector general states that from fiscal years 2015 through 2022, the agency paid out almost $8.6 trillion in benefits, including  $71.8 billion — or less than 1% — in improper payments. Despite What Donald Trump and Elon Musk Claim, Tens of Millions of Dead People Aren’t Getting Social Security Checks | Chicago News | WTTW
 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3.3.6  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.3.5    yesterday

So $72 Billion or basically $10billion per year is a drop in the bucket in your circles?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
3.3.7  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.3.6    yesterday
$10billion per year is a drop in the bucket in your circles?

It's certainly not enough to start challenging every one of the $8.59 trillion dollars that are going to real seniors that rely on social security to survive and paid into the system their entire lives. The $71 billion of total improper payments should be identified and addressed directly without needing to upend the apples cart as Musk is clearly trying to do.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3.3.8  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.3.7    11 hours ago
The $71 billion of total improper payments should be identified and addressed directly

Which is what they are doing.

without needing to upend the apples cart as Musk is clearly trying to do.

It's smart. If you are trying to upset the apple cart", he is doing it right. As soon as others see the  possibility of losing their cushy job, there will be those who come forward to avoid that by providing facts that they see that are wrong thus virtually speeding up the process. Winning through intimidation although veiled by a weighted blanket

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
3.3.9  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.3.8    9 hours ago
Winning through intimidation

Ah yes, the slide towards rightwing fascism is clearly under way.

Fascism: far-rightauthoritarian (going after political opponents), and ultranationalist political ideology (MAGA) and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader (Trump), centralized autocracy (Musk)militarism (Hegseth), forcible suppression of opposition (Winning through intimidation), belief in a natural social hierarchy (white conservative Christians above all else), subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race (mass firings of government employees, destruction of DEI), and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and sadly that is the direction these MAGAites are taking us.

 
 
 
goose is back
Junior Participates
4  goose is back    yesterday

From your article:

very likely just a quirk of the decades-old coding

one possible explanation for what DOGE allegedly found.

 entries from people who are dead is likely distinct from a potential COBOL-caused error,

The report added that the database would not be updated because it would cost too much money to do so.

This article makes the same claims as Musk, no one appears to have any facts or numbers. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1  TᵢG  replied to  goose is back @4    yesterday

Do you recognize that errors like this are replete in any large enterprise that does not have a continuous process of feedback and correction?

( And this is not caused by COBOL, it is a result of poor and missing information that was never corrected. )

Do you believe that it would be good for DOGE (or whatever) to create initiatives to clean up federal databases and its systems, being practical, to substantially reduce such errors?

 
 
 
goose is back
Junior Participates
4.1.1  goose is back  replied to  TᵢG @4.1    yesterday
Do you believe that it would be good for DOGE (or whatever) to create initiatives to clean up federal databases

Yes, I do.  Possibly give incentives for whistleblowers to come forward to expose known fraud in the system and have the DOJ prosecute them. . Democrats in congress are having a heart attack about pointing out wasteful and ridiculous spending, with no regard for the financial condition the country is in. Their only answer is raise taxes on the rich and corporations.       

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  goose is back @4.1.1    yesterday
Yes, I do.

We agree on this.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2  Tacos!  replied to  goose is back @4    yesterday

The article is not claiming - as the president has - that they are actually finding “tremendous waste, fraud, and abuse.” The article does not make the leap to saying - as Musk has - that this might be the biggest fraud in history. The article takes a sober look at what is a genuine problem, but not a crisis. Trump and Musk are giving the clear impression that they have evidence of actual fraud. But if they did, they’d present it.

 
 
 
goose is back
Junior Participates
4.2.1  goose is back  replied to  Tacos! @4.2    yesterday
that they are actually finding “tremendous waste, fraud, and abuse.”

You have no idea of what has been found! If Musk is wrong he will pay the price.  Personally, I think the disability portion of SSA is getting scammed for billions from able body people claiming bullshit conditions. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
4.2.2  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  goose is back @4.2.1    yesterday
Personally, I think the disability portion of SSA is getting scammed for billions from able body people claiming bullshit conditions. 

Of ANY of the departments, this could be the major contributor.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
4.2.3  bugsy  replied to  goose is back @4.2.1    yesterday
Personally, I think the disability portion of SSA is getting scammed for billions from able body people claiming bullshit conditions. 

Absolutely correct.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
4.2.4  bugsy  replied to  goose is back @4.2.1    yesterday
You have no idea of what has been found!

Seems like leftists are more pissed about actually FINDING the fraud and waste than they are about who is doing it. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2.5  Tacos!  replied to  goose is back @4.2.1    yesterday
You have no idea of what has been found!

Never said I did. I only commented on what Musk and Trump et al say they have found.

I don’t think Musk could find his ass with both hands, but I think if he had actually found anything on the order of fraud, he should be referring the matter to DOJ and Congress. He’s not, though. He’s not even talking about it. I wonder why.

If Musk is wrong he will pay the price

Why would you think that?

Personally, I think the disability portion of SSA is getting scammed for billions from able body people claiming bullshit conditions. 

Many things are possible. Evidence would be nice.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2.6  Tacos!  replied to  bugsy @4.2.4    yesterday
Seems like leftists are more pissed about actually FINDING the fraud and waste than they are about who is doing it. 

To what do you refer? What fraud and waste? Who specifically is pissed about the finding of what specific fraud? Who specifically has committed this fraud?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.7  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @4.2.6    yesterday

There is a wide spectrum of people who figure out how to scam systems and agencies.  The wealthy even do it. /s     Wall St. does it. Billionaires do it.      Human beings are fallen creatures. 

Responding does not demand dismantling the government. 

There are rules and regulations about dumping toxic waste into rivers now because it was so common place from people like the Koch Bros. that it was /is a mass health hazard. 

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
4.2.8  bugsy  replied to  Tacos! @4.2.6    yesterday
To what do you refer?

It is in my original post

"What fraud and waste?"

The waste is listed by DOGE daily. The fraud is normally associated with that waste. I'm sure we will hear who has committed what fraud in the future.

"Who specifically is pissed about the finding of what specific fraud?"

Well, if I listed anything specific, you would have seen it, however, I....and you...are not privy to exactly what DOGE sees. Maybe we should be. 

"Who specifically has committed this fraud?"

I don't know. You tell me.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2.9  Tacos!  replied to  bugsy @4.2.8    yesterday

So…you don’t actually know of any fraud and can’t identify anyone who is upset about finding fraud, even if it actually exists. Then why say stuff like this?: 

Seems like leftists are more pissed about actually FINDING the fraud and waste than they are about who is doing it.
 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
4.2.10  bugsy  replied to  Tacos! @4.2.9    14 hours ago

Have you heard any of them show appreciation that the waste is being found?

No...

They are pissed that it is being found. 

Post 3.3.1.can give you a better understanding.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.11  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @4.2.10    11 hours ago

Given you consider me a 'leftist' (anyone to your left), I have made several comments like this, right here in this seed:

TiG@3.3.3Is there anyone here arguing that errors in federal databases is NOT a bad thing?
TiG@4.4.1 ☞ Do you believe that it would be good for DOGE (or whatever) to create initiatives to clean up federal databases and its systems, being practical, to substantially reduce such errors?

Others have too.   You are just making up your own 'facts'.

 
 
 
goose is back
Junior Participates
4.2.12  goose is back  replied to  Tacos! @4.2.6    11 hours ago
Who specifically is pissed about the finding of what specific fraud

My guess would be Stacey Abrams !

 
 
 
goose is back
Junior Participates
4.2.13  goose is back  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.7    11 hours ago
Responding does not demand dismantling the government.

If an entire agency is providing billions of dollars to NGOs and government programs that don't advance the vision so the United States it should be closed down.  The programs that are benefiting our vision can be administered by the Secretary of States office.   

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
4.2.14  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.11    10 hours ago
TiG@3.3.3Is there anyone here arguing that errors in federal databases is NOT a bad thing?
TiG@4.4.1 ☞ Do you believe that it would be good for DOGE (or whatever) to create initiatives to clean up federal databases and its systems, being practical, to substantially reduce such errors?

These are things that cannot be disputed. Most comments have leaned pretty far left when there is an argument to be made. If some do not end up agreeing, the insults and innuendos come out.

I don't see you simply just to the left of me, and I used to be fiscal conservative and a little left socially, however, Biden and his bs policies of DEI, [] etc, caused me to move more to the right.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.15  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @4.2.14    10 hours ago

Show me someone who is arguing that finding and removing waste is a bad thing.

... and I used to be fiscal conservative and a little left socially

You used to be fiscally conservative; as in you no longer are??

Anyone who constantly uses the phrase 'the left' is telegraphing that they see the world as left vs. right.   That is an extremely over-simplistic and error-prone way to view political reality.   You will never, for example, see me refer to 'the right' or 'the left'.   There is no such thing, there is only one's perspective on a particular issue and those who are left of that position and those who are right of that position ... on that issue.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2.16  Tacos!  replied to  bugsy @4.2.10    10 hours ago
Have you heard any of them show appreciation that the waste is being found?

What waste? 

They are pissed that it is being found. 

Who is?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.2.17  Jack_TX  replied to  bugsy @4.2.14    10 hours ago
I used to be fiscal conservative and a little left socially, however, Biden and his bs policies of DEI, trannies, etc, caused me to move more to the right. 

I think for many people that's relative.   A lot of people haven't changed their views, but the far left nature of some of the recent angry discourse makes them look more conservative by comparison.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.2.18  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Tacos! @4.2    10 hours ago
But if they did, they’d present it.

You mean like on a website like  ?

And to think it took a quick google search and there it was.  

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.2.19  JBB  replied to  goose is back @4.2.1    10 hours ago

Then why are Musk and DOGE not talking about that instead of bullshiting us about 175 year old Social Security recipients? On the other hand, it is hard to imagine something that could and would go horribly wrong as DOGE willy nilly cutting off disability $...

Another thing which really needs a thorough auditing is all of the non profits. The level of fraud there is tremendous. Some retain management fees 99% of money raised raised tax free which is bullshit. Left, right and middle and churches, too...

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
4.2.20  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.15    10 hours ago
You used to be fiscally conservative; as in you no longer are??

I thought you didn't like it when someone only copies a part of your response and complain they are trying to change the meaning. Apparently it is OK when you do it.

Read it carefully. I used to be one AND the other until Biden came along. 

"You will never, for example, see me refer to 'the right' or 'the left'.   "

No, but you consistently refer to Trump support as a cult. Normally, that is considered a no no on here, but........

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
4.2.21  bugsy  replied to  Tacos! @4.2.16    10 hours ago
What waste? 

See 4.2.18 for your answer.

" Who is?"

These people and the rest that are on the same side of their aisle.

Cringy Democrat Song at Capitol Protest Against DOGE, Trump and Musk #democrats #singing #cringy

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.22  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @4.2.20    10 hours ago

Show how I changed the meaning of your post.

Is it correct that you used to be fiscally conservative?   If so, then what I quoted is entirely valid.   If not, then your grammar was horrible.


Partial quotes are wrong only if they misrepresent.   They are valid if one is focusing attention on an aspect and honestly holding true to the author’s meaning.

 
 
 
goose is back
Junior Participates
4.2.23  goose is back  replied to  JBB @4.2.19    10 hours ago
Then why are Musk and DOGE not talking about that instead of bullshiting us about 175 year old Social Security recipients? On the other hand, it is hard to imagine something that could and would go horribly wrong as DOGE willy nilly cutting off disability $...

They are evaluating most government agencies, most of what I was referring to was USAID.  They are looking into social security as well, the fraud in the disability was my opinion, not Musk. 

I believe Non-Profits would be audited by the IRS but, I agree they shouldn't be banking 99% fees.  That may be something congress has to get involved with. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2.24  Tacos!  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.2.18    10 hours ago

The problem is they don’t demonstrate waste, fraud or abuse in a factual way. People hear the claims, or see them on a website, and accept that as fact. But there’s no actual analysis of these claims.

Elon says we’re spending X amount of dollars on something, and that it’s waste or fraud, but he never demonstrates how it’s waste or fraud. If it was money allocated by Congress, for example, it’s probably not waste or fraud, but Elon and his boys don’t look into that. Furthermore, if he has found evidence of genuine waste or fraud, he should be referring those issues to congressional oversight and the DOJ, not simply bragging about it on the internet or on tv.

We also know already that frequently he is either wrong or misleading in the information he disseminates. He already mixed up the Gaza Strip with Mozambique, and has heavily implied that millions of dollars are being paid to dead people with no evidence.

And people just believe all of this totally uncritically. From the mouths of people who said they were eating dogs and cats in Ohio.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2.25  Tacos!  replied to  bugsy @4.2.21    10 hours ago

The website is not helpful. If you believe there is genuine waste - and I mean criminal waste or some failure of fiduciary duty, not just your policy opinion about what we should spend money on - then you should be able to articulate it. If not, you are just having the emotion Musk and Trump told you to have.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.2.26  JBB  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.15    10 hours ago

Apparently the MAGA's revulsion for LGTBQ and especially the intersexed now trumps all other considerations to the point they will allow DOGE to deconstruct our government. You see, these MAGA are sick and tired of the gay marriages, gays in the military, gay adoptions and gay school teachers and that settles everything...

And here I thought it was all about Democrats eating babies!

Though grossly under reported for privacy reasons about 1.4 percent of live births and born intersex, meaning that their external sexual organs are indistinguishable. In recent times the vast majority of these babies were assigned female, operated upon as infants and it was not talked about. So, MAGA insistence babies are one of the other is bullshit...

There may be 10 transgender NCAA athletes. One won a race...

Who cares untreated transgender kid kill themselves in droves?

Now these guys are legally required to use women's restrooms.

original original I do not believe the MAGA capable of thinking things through.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2.27  Tacos!  replied to  bugsy @4.2.21    9 hours ago
These people and the rest that are on the same side of their aisle.

I actually listened to that horrid song. They are complaining about losing their jobs, not about finding waste. You gotta listen to the lyrics.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.2.28  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Tacos! @4.2.24    9 hours ago
But there’s no actual analysis of these claims.

Then provide actual analysis that shows any of it isn't waste.  How would one justify $255,863 annual subscription to politico? Or $25 Million to DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION AND ACCESSIBILITY (DEIA) ASSESSMENT AND TRAINING SERVICES?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.2.29  JBB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.2.28    9 hours ago

It is impossible to prove a negative. Congress holds the purse!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.30  TᵢG  replied to  JBB @4.2.26    8 hours ago

It is obvious that a lot of Trump's support comes from those holding bigoted positions.    The anti-non-straight agenda is crystal clear.   Trump, and too many of his supporters seem obsessed with this tiny minority of our nation.  People like Hegseth are trying to erase them.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.2.31  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JBB @4.2.29    7 hours ago

I gave you the link to show what was found.  So you can't prove any of it as not being waste?  Is that what you are saying?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2.32  Tacos!  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.2.28    7 hours ago
Then provide actual analysis that shows any of it isn't waste.

I can't believe I'm seeing this. Are you serious right now? Because that's insane. That's entirely illogical.

I haven't made the claim that there is no waste. I have said we are being presented with insufficient evidence and analysis of that evidence to conclude that it is waste.

There is no way you can rationally expect me to prove there is no waste - again, a claim I have not made - without evidence to analyze. Do you expect me to do the job of government by finding the evidence and analyzing it? How would I get access? Where is my power to subpoena relevant witnesses?

How would one justify $255,863 annual subscription to politico? Or $25 Million to DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION AND ACCESSIBILITY (DEIA) ASSESSMENT AND TRAINING SERVICES?

I didn't authorize the money. Assuming that that even is a real thing, you should be asking Congress why they think that is money worth spending. 

But to the real problem with your question, if Congress did authorize the spending of that money for those purposes, then it cannot be waste. We can say it's a bad idea to spend money on those things, but legally authorized spending is not waste.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
4.2.33  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.30    7 hours ago

Cruelty to the weak is an integral part of fascism. So... no surprise.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.2.34  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Tacos! @4.2.32    7 hours ago
Then provide actual analysis that shows any of it isn't waste.
I can't believe I'm seeing this. Are you serious right now? Because that's insane. That's entirely illogical.

I know.  Backing up a claim is just insane isn't it?  

Did you recognize the point of the video?

In 4.2.24, didn't you say:

But there’s no actual analysis of these claims.

Looks like you did.  You are claiming there's no fraud.  As insane as you think it is, you should back up a claim.  

I didn't authorize the money. Assuming that that even is a real thing, you should be asking Congress why they think that is money worth spending. 

So you are disputing everything in that link?  Lets see how it's not all waste.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.2.35  Tacos!  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.2.34    7 hours ago
You are claiming there's no fraud.

Again, logic fails you. Observing that there is insufficient evidence or analysis in no way is the same as claiming there is no fraud.

Also, fraud and waste are different things. These are words with legal definitions, not just adjectives for describing spending you don’t like. You’ve got me first claiming there is no waste, and then claiming there is no fraud. That would actually be two different claims, neither of which I have made.

Let’s see how it's not all waste.

You need to figure out what it is you think you are saying when you use the words “waste” or fraud.”

But, as a general matter - and as I said above - if Congress allocates money for a specific purpose, and it is being spent in the way Congress intended, it CANNOT be waste or fraud.

 
 
 
freepress
Freshman Silent
5  freepress    yesterday

Truly frightening that a supposed genius who supposedly hires geniuses, cannot grasp basic laws or basic programming languages. 

Man, if there is any agency that claws back payments it is definitely Social Security. 

Some extremely elderly people were born in rural areas where there was little or no record keeping. Many don't have birth certificates.

When Republicans pushed through some of these extreme voting measures, a few elderly folks lost their voting rights over a required birth certificate that a 100 year old voter may not have.

Social Security is the first notification funeral homes send out. 

DOGE  is bonkers!

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
5.1  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  freepress @5    yesterday
Truly frightening that a supposed genius who supposedly hires geniuses, cannot grasp basic laws or basic programming languages. 

More frightening: these people don't give a fuck. They're swinging baseball bats in a China shop. That's what they're there for. Their purpose. They want to destroy.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Professor Participates
6  Snuffy    yesterday

There are some general errors in the seed article. COBOL does indeed have a DATE format.

Items of COBOL class date-time, include date, time, and timestamp items. These items are declared with the FORMAT clause of a data description entry.  Specifying Date, Time, and Timestamp Data Types - IBM Documentation

Now we have to take into account that this system was initially built back in the late 40's early 50's. Storage was very expensive back then and it was common practice (even thru the 80's before disk started to get cheaper to buy) back then to shorten dates to save on storage. The standard for systems built in the 60's thru 70's normally used Julian dates which is two digits for the year and three digits for the day. This storage issue was the reason behind the Y2K issue.

As there were people in the system who didn't report or know their date of birth, that field could sometimes be left blank. Any attempt to perform date mathematics on two dates did require both values or you would get a run-time error. So programmatically a default date would be used. As to what the default would be in the SSA systems, I cannot tell you without access to the actual code. It's a nice story that the default date would be May 20, 1875 as that is when ISO 8601 standards were set. But there's no evidence outside of news stories that this is true. I programmed in COBOL for quite a few years including thru the Y2K fun and never saw a system that used that as a default date. As most dates were stored with a two digit year, it's difficult to see where a four digit year would be the default date. 

Now the SSA system had to be able to handle people who were 100+ years of age also, so it is very possible (again not able to confirm as I do not have access to the code in that system) that they would use 6 characters to store the date. (see below). Programmatically they would set up both the input and reporting side to perform the date calculations. As to what they have used for date zero, that I cannot confirm. Again I do not have access to the coding. I suspect that any of these articles were written by people who also do not have access to the coding. 

So what is it?

Keep in mind, we talk about a system designed in the 1930s to 50s. That means punch card based, where every character is a premium. Storing a date as 8 characters is an incredible waste. That's why mos commercial application at the time stored dates as 5 characters. 3 for the day (*4) two for the year (*5). They have used worse encoding to save less.

Now, social security needed to cover ages well over 100 years, so defining a sensible cut off year (see above) as 'Year Zero' helps save a whole character. So a birth date can be encoded in 6 characters instead of 8. Three for the day (*4) plus three for year minus 1875.

In turn a not filled date - like when the birth day is unknown, will be empty - which by this logic will output 1875 - at least by reports not taking care of this exception.

Did missing/corrupt dates in COBOL default to 1875-05-20? - Retrocomputing Stack Exchange

 
 

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