meant to convey a thought but rarely leaves room for discussion
How does that differ from most verbal presentations on NT ? They almost all present a biased view and attempt to steamroll the readers with persuasion .
Some people just get offended that a meme can sum up an argument (or even end one) with a witty line and an amusing picture.
An argument yes. Maybe evencontradiction. But anargumentisn't a discussion. Discussions are an exchange of words meant to enlighten,persuade,convince, inform, and grow from. Amemedoes none of those.
How does that differ from most verbal presentations on NT ? They almost all present a biased view and attempt to steamroll the readers with persuasion .
Exactly right in motivation, Petey!
Imo, it's concept or idea vs. objective reality. They both have the same motivation and reality often started as an idea, but one is proven.
If a meme is used to make a political statement, and the the author puts a question to everyone, does not this make for a discussion thus the meme is an article?
Gene,
A statement makes no room for discussion, which is the issue.
Actually the discussion about Memes did that. Memes themselves don't. There is no substance in a meme to discuss. Just a very specific POV. Everyone of the mems in both these articles are funny, and even creative.. but none would lead to a meaningful discussion. They do have their place in humor.
discussion
noun \di- sk-shn\
: the act of talking about something with another person or a group of people : a conversation about something
: a speech or piece of writing that gives information, ideas, opinions, etc., about something
Full Definition ofDISCUSSION
1
: consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
2
: a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing
discussion (d-skshn)
n.
1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
Perrie, those are great examples of humorous memes! I do think that if the topic wasn't humor, that a meme could be subject to rebuttal. I was just looking at a religious and another that was an English language meme, as well as a political statement. I agree that "full" discussion wouldn't be inspired by a meme because it's basically just a statement.
Newstalkers front page is full of memes. Propogation and reinforcement of memes.
In the greater concept of a meme, that was defined earlier in one of the two articles, yes. A meme is a concept unit. But memes, as used in the internet era is a specific thing. More of a slogan. You can go to any meme generator and do a meme for one of those general concepts, but it wouldn't be a discussion. You could add them to a discussion, to drive a point home.
In my opinion, yes. (here's where JR tells me my opinion means nothing, and I respond back that I don't give a damn about his opinion of my opinion- {there, saved you a typing session, JR}) But for some reason, this massive forum has arisen out of a simple question- can a meme be an article? The answer is yes, if it is intended to be one. No, if the censor/moderator decides it isn't. In other words, as in every private enterprise, the owner and/or her/his designated representatives determines what is appropriate in their buainess. We can comply or leave.
Why is there a difference here and "The war on" is on page 3 after only 16 hours of being closed to comments?
"Fire in the skies" has only received 1 comment and is within 3 places before it goes off the front page. It was put up at 432am this morning Saturday 5/3/14 and it is now 12pm Saturday 5/3/14.
How long do you think it will stay on the first page obstructing the more important articles that are there now? And today has been pretty slow, so on a busy day it would probably already be gone.
This is surely turning into a complete democratic forum which was a little more of a republican forum at one time. And for those who don't understand that, I'm not saying Democratic or Republican. My meaning is more of the majority rules and the minority are run over.
Are we having a problem with memes crowding out all the great seeds that occupy it now?
If it's efficiency you are opposed to then you are "barking up the wrong tree " . Any meme can be opposed by : 1] posting a counter meme 2] Describing where the meme has it wrong 3] Use the John Russell approach [ say it is nonsense ]
4] Describing the meme as biased or a personal delusion of the poster .
After moderating this place for almost 2 years, and knowing first hand how hard the job is, give us more problems than most of our other members. You are always looking for something to whine about and not only that, you love to take it public. Fine so be it, but remember you were a big part of how this site evolved, so spank yourself, too, with your nasty attitude.
Yes, I did ask you to remove the meme's from the sites photoshow. But then a flood of them started to come in... and since this is a member site, I figured that is what the whole site wanted. You were a trailblazer there. Just for the record, when the site moves, that module is going and being replaced with photo page, since that is what the new system allows.
There was no blog wars. Adults where using the blogs to get at each other like they were in grade school. It was an embarrassment. And since you feel no social investment into the site, you participated. Well, I got plenty of emails complaining about it, and that is why I keep them up, but check them regularly. When adults act like adults then the blogs can be left up.
I like memes, hence why I went through the whole trouble of writing an article about them. And while a meme spreads a message effectively, it also a conversation non starter. They have their place on the site. People can use them in their comments and in the blogs, but they do NOT an article or a seed. And if a person can only "Speak their Mind" with a meme... then they have not much to say.
And no the CoC does not specifically say no memes as articles. But it does say:
#3:Author/seeder (with assistance from administration) moderates his/her own article. Authors/seeders are expected to foster healthy, open discussions.... That meme didn't foster any healthy discussion, nor did she moderate it. The CoC like any rule or law can't foresee every possible issue, so there is room forinterpretation. There is a big difference between that and making up rules as we go along.
Also Bruce, would all thisnonsensebe going on if a liberal member posted a meme and Mike toldthem that it was a non starter? My guess is that it would not, from the people who are making the stink about this.
Finally, I am not opposed to a vote... but since these articles prove that most adults don't know what a meme is, I will have to make sure that the membership understands what they are voting for or against.
Oh one last thing, since you only appear when to stir the pot, could you try and remember that this job isn't so easy... in fact you know first hand that it's damn hard. So stop with the tough guy routine. It really stinks and you wouldn't have appreciated it either.
It is incredible the amount of time and effort that has gone into the prosecution and defense of memes in the past few hours and it seems to have accomplished exactly nothing
If memes are undesired or prohibited on NT, then have the moderators simply delete that which they deem a meme and be done with it.
There are many articles that are posted to NT that do little to generate any meaningful debate or discussion and are intended as and serve as the incendiary spark for a hate fest and yet these articles posted over and over by people of varied political views are not memes so they are perfectly acceptable it would seem.
If a meme is unacceptable because it adds no value to the site it should be deleted, just as articles are inspire hate fest exchanges add no value to the site should also be deleted, without warning, without appeal, without recourse.
If the intent and desire is to mold the type of discussion material that is seeded or penned on the site then movement in that direction should be bold and decisive.
I used to pen articles, rather than seeding articles from the media, but they generated little discussion or interest because they were targeted at practical problems and solution tracks without dwelling on politics. Since the antagonism, hate, and attack-debate drives the forum discussions I participate a lot less, but admittedly join right in at times.
Of course that is simply my view and if it adds no value to the discussion, I respectfully ask that a moderator delete it and chastise me appropriately
I would love it, if everyone had some sort of quality control filter in their heads. I would like the site to be respected for a good level of discussion. I feel that the level has gone down hill... memes was about as low as we can go.
Unless the group wants to enforce some sort of community standard on what we accept as a discussion, my hands are tied. But a discussion, no matter how abrasive, still must have it's roots the written prose. Otherwise what are we doing here?
I think the issue is coming down to whether or not one prefers cut & paste words to cut & paste pictures . From Perrie's POV there is a preference for words . The question : do memes discourage discussion more than massive cut & paste words ? If the poster has not even read their own cut & paste there are ways of tripping them up but not so with a meme . Perhaps that is the deciding factor ...
I agree with your assessment of the discussion about memes.
There are many articles that are posted to NT that do little to generate any meaningful debate or discussion and are intended as and serve as the incendiary spark for a hate fest and yet these articles posted over and over by people of varied political views are not memes so they are perfectly acceptable it would seem.
Again I totally agree. In fact, this is a major problem here, that I am very open to ideas to prevent and I am sure many of our other members, from the emails that I get, would agree with you.
I used to pen articles, rather than seeding articles from the media, but they generated little discussion or interest because they were targeted at practical problems and solution tracks without dwelling on politics. Since the antagonism, hate, and attack-debate drives the forum discussions I participate a lot less, but admittedly join right in at times.
I know and I am saddened by this. You brought a lot of quality work to the site. That is the direction I would prefer the site go. But we have some members who view the site as some sort of war zone for politics. I would love to guide us away from that. Ideas are welcomed! BTW.. your comments are usually thoughtful, so I have no desire to delete it, even if I could.
Things are cut and pasted here because we can't see like we did at NV. Usually they are accompanied by words from the seeder. All that is changed is that the mechanics of the site, is different.
No Neale. You can write or post a seed about anything you like so long as they are in prose. And this has nada to do with private property. The rules were made by the group. And I am getting pretty sick and tired of that song.
And your preferred alternative would be what? Total chaos, total disrespect for one another , and an anything goes format?
In a word, yes. I LIKE a good scrap. But I came here knowing there were rules, and mostly, I follow them. Because it IS Perrie's property, and she can make the rules in her place. I don't WANT to cause Perrie problems, even though I occasionally do. So I'm going to ask one question, read her response, then gracefully bow out of this mess.
IF I understand it correctly, if the poster/seeder/author had remained around, directed conversations, rebutted comments, or generally participated from the start, this would not have been a problem. So, to the question- Are you alright with an article being justa meme, as long as the "author" hangs around and participates and directs the conversations? (the author CANNOT moderate, they have no power to delete comments)
So do I understand it correctly, and if so, what is the answer to my question?
Perhaps another go at non-partisan debate is in order
I appreciate your efforts (and the other moderators) in trying to guide the direction of the site, but many more members will need to want that new direction in order to make it so
I could only give you positive feedback, since that is what you put out there!
And I would love it if you gave it another go at
non-partisan debate.
I appreciate your efforts (and the other moderators) in trying to guide the direction of the site, but many more members will need to want that new direction in order to make it so.
The problem is this. An interesting dynamic has happened on the site. Those who don't like the nasty fighting on the front page now go directly into groups. They are very active. In order to get them to come out and participate, we have to try and be more civil... which means more moderation... which is then upsets people. Kind of a lose/lose.
Although there are problems with memes [ mostly that they are difficult to counter intelligently ] I forsee a problem just outlawing them . I could see someone who had a political point to make merely classifying his meme under humor where one would not outlaw it . A lot of memes are sarcastic humor anyway so that would be an accurate classification .
Mike, I wondered where this started. Petey implied something from another article. I'm sorry if I missed a link. Knowing, would make this article make more sense.
there is a preference for words . The question : do memes discourage discussion more than massive cut & paste words ? If the poster has not even read their own cut & paste there are ways of tripping them up but not so with a meme . Perhaps that is the deciding factor ...
I think there is a preference for words as well, however, I think memes can have a place. Sometimes we just want to make a point and end it (if the dissenter will).
Usually they are accompanied by words from the seeder.
If that is the case I would find no general complaint with such a cut&paste comment . Such a comment usually shows that the poster had at least attempted to absorb the material he posted . The ones I have a problem with is a lengthy one which was not even read by the poster . But I don't think such comments should be outlawed because it is possible to refute such a comment even without doing the work required to read it all .
By contrast there is no lengthy reading required for a meme but they are still hard to refute intelligently . That is , as I see it , what your objection to them is . But I still see a problem with outlawing memes as described here :
the topic of memes doesn't interest me. Memes, no memes , on NT, I couldn't care less.
Pretty much my opinion as well.
Then I stated reading some of these comments and it occurs to me that all the people defending memes are the conservatives and right wingers, and I have to wonder - what does the use of "memes" compensate for?
I noticed that, but I think that is here on NT. I don't think you would find it as obvious elsewhere. I think it comes from always being put on the defensive.
Facts ?, understanding ?, logic ?, persuasive rhetoric ? In other words, if memes and cartoons are your best foot forward, then you will be in the forefront of defending them.
Yes, defending them, but I don't think they are considered a "best foot" by the user. Just another foot.
In the end, if you don't have facts and persuasive argument, in words, you are a second stringer on a DISCUSSION forum.
Agreed. Discussion is a result of much more content than a meme.
Memes can be cute and have their place though.
I made that point as well...it can be a nice way of making a statement that we're hoping will end discussion, but might still instigate dissenting memes in return.
John, I said to myself I would not say anything more about this, but call me a liar. I have to tell you..... Take a deep breath (that's me)....
Let's put it this way. I defend your right to put up an article which only has Cent giving the finger to the camera man, no words, nada. I don't really think it is your best foot, but the only difference in the article we're discussing and yours is you've put a video as the first comment, meaning anyone who came across it on the internet would have to go to the comments to get the complete article.
Until I read your criticism above I wasn't going to say anything, but dang you keep asking for it.
And everything you are insinuating about others is exactly what you did. And what is even more troubling is I wonder if you will be able to see it for what it is.
Hey, you can do what you want, but I think you could exclude yourself from those insinuations a little better if you took you first comment and put it in the article. Then you could make a comment which would put it at the top of the page so anyone could sit back and listen to a nut rant and curse for 5 minutes.
Because it IS Perrie's property, and she can make the rules in her place.
Neale, darling, lover, I have not made the rules here.They were made by the members and These rules are voted on annually and more often if a change is needed.
Now to your question. The meme in itself isn't an article. It can be part of an article, but not as a stand alone. It doesn't allow for discussion, and that is what we are, a discussion forum. A person can moderate their own article by setting the tone and reporting to a mod. We are all willing to be helpful to any author/seeder. But what made the issue worse in this case is that the meme was posted and left for hours, which means that all havok can happen. This is not a CoC offense, so please don't misunderstand me. I understand that you can't be on your article 24/7 but posting one and then not checking it for a day, isn't cool, although it is often done.
Perhaps conservatives find the urge to remove or otherwiseinterfere with speech and expressionless tolerable than lefties, and tend to speak up about it.
I only show up to stir the pot? News flash sister, this pot was well simmered before I even got here.
Oh that is true, but you took it to the next level with your fire and brimstone comment. As an ex mod, you should know that makes the job only harder.
And you have no clue how often I show up.
Yes I do. I see ya on chat. But to clarify...
If I am participating in an article, I can't moderate. If I see something I get a moderator. Otherwise, I am available to moderate for you. My advice to you would be, if you see something or someone is harassing you, get a mod.
You know me better than that Cupcake. That's exactly what the Blog wars were about between Randy and I. Remember? Meme and Counter-Meme.
Yeah I do remember that issue and I thought we had grown past that.
Don't tell me how hard the job is. That last paragraph just showed you that as a moderator you can't and aren't in every article.
Now that is insulting. You have no idea what I do here. I am not only the lead moderator, but site coder, email answer, tech issue solver, IM question answer. I am also in the midst of building a new site. And no I never said I was on every article, but when there is a big issue like this, it falls on my lap, and guess what... I didn't go to bed until almost3 am last nightbecauseafter handling all the comments I still had to do all the email that Ifell behind on. Right now, as I sit here and type this to you, there are 7 pieces of email waiting for me and two IM's on hold. I am not saying this for pity or for a pat on the back, but just to set the record straight why I resent the extraworkload. It's not that your overall behavior is bad, but I resent that you talk down to me.And no my underwear isn't in a twist....I just expect you to be civil with me, as you should expect from me.
Memes have merit. I have said this over and over. They even have merit in an article... as part of the article. But as the only thing in the article, they don't foster discussion... at least political discussion and that is what this site is... a news and politics site.
But I think back to the "not news" and no poll days of NV and hate that, too. Yes memes can be funny and if the classification is humor, I'm good with that. But then some clown will find the loophole to that and make a political humor meme as an article and we will be back to this all over again.
But bottom line... This will be brought to the group for voting on, soon. But first I the members have to understand what they are voting for or against, and many people here really don't know what a meme is.... that will have to be explained... and the pros and cons that go along with the issue.
Here's another thing to consider . Posting a graph might be considered to be a picture and therefore a meme . For example the famous "hockey stick" graph from Michael Mann is so well known it has become a meme . Should that be outlawed as well ?
Or we could make a category for meme styled discussions.....
Most of the so called memes on the internet (as opposed to the classically defined memes) are designed to make you laugh, so I think that would be an appropriate category, though I would not want to restrict where people post that much, just because.
Because we rumbled over this, I return for a brief "Understood, Mike" BTW- the Bias I was actually referring to was against memes.
Perrie- this may be rules SET by the group, but I never obey a buncha monkeys making rules. But I DO listen to redheads...... So this mess is YOURS in my book- and usually (hell, most of the time) you do a damn good job.
The point of this article is to discuss the issue brought up by the following thread :
A meme is a catch phrase meant to convey a thought but rarely leaves room for discussion. See the niffty graphic here:
How does that differ from most verbal presentations on NT ? They almost all present a biased view and attempt to steamroll the readers with persuasion .
There is no difference. If a meme tells a political idea, or makes a political point, it is enough to be an article.
If the meme sparks political (or any other) discourse, it is an article.
If it is ignored, then it isn't an article, and it will quickly fade.
And that's all I have to say about that!
On this, my dear, you are incorrect. See my comment below- Hell, I'll save ya from having to look for it!
It's really that simple. Some people just get offended that a meme can sum up an argument (or even end one) with a witty line and an amusing picture.
Article: a written composition in prose, usually nonfiction, on a specific topic, forming an independent
part of a book or other publication, as a newspaper or magazine.
a piece of writing about a particular subject that is included in a magazine, newspaper, etc.
A meme pushes a specific message. It doesn't encourage discussion... just pass that message on in an efficient manner.
An argument yes. Maybe evencontradiction. But anargumentisn't a discussion. Discussions are an exchange of words meant to enlighten,persuade,convince, inform, and grow from. Amemedoes none of those.
Spot on Mike.
Exactly right in motivation, Petey!
Imo, it's concept or idea vs. objective reality. They both have the same motivation and reality often started as an idea, but one is proven.
Indeed they are! But they are not a discussion. Think more Darrin Stevens or Mad Men.
Merriam-Webster:
Meme:
: an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture
Or art? So long as it's for fun sake... sure.
BTW that wasn't directed at you BF. I just made this one and liked it.
Yes, it does Gunny! It's merely an idea and ideas can be discussed!
Petey???
But...but, I wanted a cookie!
Gene,
A statement makes no room for discussion, which is the issue.
All discussion leaves room to disagree, yes? The dissenter makes room for it. It looks like that point was made by others.
Chloe... Here is a page full of memes... discuss them. See how far the discussion goes.
lol...I need a discussion partner first.
Now I am impressed, BF!
Of course!
Actually the discussion about Memes did that. Memes themselves don't. There is no substance in a meme to discuss. Just a very specific POV. Everyone of the mems in both these articles are funny, and even creative.. but none would lead to a meaningful discussion. They do have their place in humor.
discussion
noun \di- sk-shn\
: the act of talking about something with another person or a group of people : a conversation about something
: a speech or piece of writing that gives information, ideas, opinions, etc., about something
Full Definition ofDISCUSSION
Perrie, those are great examples of humorous memes! I do think that if the topic wasn't humor, that a meme could be subject to rebuttal. I was just looking at a religious and another that was an English language meme, as well as a political statement. I agree that "full" discussion wouldn't be inspired by a meme because it's basically just a statement.
argument
noun \ r-gy-mnt\
Classically:
In the age of NT:
Good one Brolly!
Mike, you said it perfectly.... and that is a perfect meme!
In the greater concept of a meme, that was defined earlier in one of the two articles, yes. A meme is a concept unit. But memes, as used in the internet era is a specific thing. More of a slogan. You can go to any meme generator and do a meme for one of those general concepts, but it wouldn't be a discussion. You could add them to a discussion, to drive a point home.
In my opinion, yes. (here's where JR tells me my opinion means nothing, and I respond back that I don't give a damn about his opinion of my opinion- {there, saved you a typing session, JR}) But for some reason, this massive forum has arisen out of a simple question- can a meme be an article? The answer is yes, if it is intended to be one. No, if the censor/moderator decides it isn't. In other words, as in every private enterprise, the owner and/or her/his designated representatives determines what is appropriate in their buainess. We can comply or leave.
"Obuummer put up you dukes" received 2 comments.
"My way or no way" received 3 comments.
"I keep hitting escape" received 4 comments.
"The war on" received 106 comments.
Why is there a difference here and "The war on" is on page 3 after only 16 hours of being closed to comments?
"Fire in the skies" has only received 1 comment and is within 3 places before it goes off the front page. It was put up at 432am this morning Saturday 5/3/14 and it is now 12pm Saturday 5/3/14.
How long do you think it will stay on the first page obstructing the more important articles that are there now? And today has been pretty slow, so on a busy day it would probably already be gone.
This is surely turning into a complete democratic forum which was a little more of a republican forum at one time. And for those who don't understand that, I'm not saying Democratic or Republican. My meaning is more of the majority rules and the minority are run over.
Are we having a problem with memes crowding out all the great seeds that occupy it now?
That is a different issue . Baiting/taunting is something we can agree is an undesirable action . Memes ... not so much .
If it's efficiency you are opposed to then you are "barking up the wrong tree " . Any meme can be opposed by :
1] posting a counter meme
2] Describing where the meme has it wrong
3] Use the John Russell approach [ say it is nonsense ]
4] Describing the meme as biased or a personal delusion of the poster .
Bruce, you really have your nerve.
After moderating this place for almost 2 years, and knowing first hand how hard the job is, give us more problems than most of our other members. You are always looking for something to whine about and not only that, you love to take it public. Fine so be it, but remember you were a big part of how this site evolved, so spank yourself, too, with your nasty attitude.
Yes, I did ask you to remove the meme's from the sites photoshow. But then a flood of them started to come in... and since this is a member site, I figured that is what the whole site wanted. You were a trailblazer there. Just for the record, when the site moves, that module is going and being replaced with photo page, since that is what the new system allows.
There was no blog wars. Adults where using the blogs to get at each other like they were in grade school. It was an embarrassment. And since you feel no social investment into the site, you participated. Well, I got plenty of emails complaining about it, and that is why I keep them up, but check them regularly. When adults act like adults then the blogs can be left up.
I like memes, hence why I went through the whole trouble of writing an article about them. And while a meme spreads a message effectively, it also a conversation non starter. They have their place on the site. People can use them in their comments and in the blogs, but they do NOT an article or a seed. And if a person can only "Speak their Mind" with a meme... then they have not much to say.
And no the CoC does not specifically say no memes as articles. But it does say:
#3:Author/seeder (with assistance from administration) moderates his/her own article. Authors/seeders are expected to foster healthy, open discussions.... That meme didn't foster any healthy discussion, nor did she moderate it. The CoC like any rule or law can't foresee every possible issue, so there is room forinterpretation. There is a big difference between that and making up rules as we go along.
Also Bruce, would all thisnonsensebe going on if a liberal member posted a meme and Mike toldthem that it was a non starter? My guess is that it would not, from the people who are making the stink about this.
Finally, I am not opposed to a vote... but since these articles prove that most adults don't know what a meme is, I will have to make sure that the membership understands what they are voting for or against.
Oh one last thing, since you only appear when to stir the pot, could you try and remember that this job isn't so easy... in fact you know first hand that it's damn hard. So stop with the tough guy routine. It really stinks and you wouldn't have appreciated it either.
LOL!!!
OK, I get it. We need to cut back on the memes.
Wow
It is incredible the amount of time and effort that has gone into the prosecution and defense of memes in the past few hours and it seems to have accomplished exactly nothing
If memes are undesired or prohibited on NT, then have the moderators simply delete that which they deem a meme and be done with it.
There are many articles that are posted to NT that do little to generate any meaningful debate or discussion and are intended as and serve as the incendiary spark for a hate fest and yet these articles posted over and over by people of varied political views are not memes so they are perfectly acceptable it would seem.
If a meme is unacceptable because it adds no value to the site it should be deleted, just as articles are inspire hate fest exchanges add no value to the site should also be deleted, without warning, without appeal, without recourse.
If the intent and desire is to mold the type of discussion material that is seeded or penned on the site then movement in that direction should be bold and decisive.
I used to pen articles, rather than seeding articles from the media, but they generated little discussion or interest because they were targeted at practical problems and solution tracks without dwelling on politics. Since the antagonism, hate, and attack-debate drives the forum discussions I participate a lot less, but admittedly join right in at times.
Of course that is simply my view and if it adds no value to the discussion, I respectfully ask that a moderator delete it and chastise me appropriately
That would be true whether they post a meme or a cut and paste . In any case the issue is more about baiting/taunting :
I get it. It seems that others are deciding what (and HOW) we say. And because it is private property, the rules stand.
Six,
I would love it, if everyone had some sort of quality control filter in their heads. I would like the site to be respected for a good level of discussion. I feel that the level has gone down hill... memes was about as low as we can go.
Unless the group wants to enforce some sort of community standard on what we accept as a discussion, my hands are tied. But a discussion, no matter how abrasive, still must have it's roots the written prose. Otherwise what are we doing here?
I think the issue is coming down to whether or not one prefers cut & paste words to cut & paste pictures .
From Perrie's POV there is a preference for words . The question : do memes discourage discussion more than massive cut & paste words ? If the poster has not even read their own cut & paste there are ways of tripping them up but not so with a meme . Perhaps that is the deciding factor ...
Robert,
I agree with your assessment of the discussion about memes.
Again I totally agree. In fact, this is a major problem here, that I am very open to ideas to prevent and I am sure many of our other members, from the emails that I get, would agree with you.
I know and I am saddened by this. You brought a lot of quality work to the site. That is the direction I would prefer the site go. But we have some members who view the site as some sort of war zone for politics. I would love to guide us away from that. Ideas are welcomed! BTW.. your comments are usually thoughtful, so I have no desire to delete it, even if I could.
Sometimes that is true, Robert. Sometimes that is perceived. Just having a different POV is viewed by some as baiting.. which is pretty sad.
Things are cut and pasted here because we can't see like we did at NV. Usually they are accompanied by words from the seeder. All that is changed is that the mechanics of the site, is different.
No Neale. You can write or post a seed about anything you like so long as they are in prose. And this has nada to do with private property. The rules were made by the group. And I am getting pretty sick and tired of that song.
In a word, yes. I LIKE a good scrap. But I came here knowing there were rules, and mostly, I follow them. Because it IS Perrie's property, and she can make the rules in her place. I don't WANT to cause Perrie problems, even though I occasionally do. So I'm going to ask one question, read her response, then gracefully bow out of this mess.
IF I understand it correctly, if the poster/seeder/author had remained around, directed conversations, rebutted comments, or generally participated from the start, this would not have been a problem. So, to the question- Are you alright with an article being justa meme, as long as the "author" hangs around and participates and directs the conversations? (the author CANNOT moderate, they have no power to delete comments)
So do I understand it correctly, and if so, what is the answer to my question?
I've answered that in detail a few minutes ago. You'll see it in your e-mail soon, Mike.
Perrie
Appreciate that feedback
Perhaps another go at non-partisan debate is in order
I appreciate your efforts (and the other moderators) in trying to guide the direction of the site, but many more members will need to want that new direction in order to make it so
Robert,
I could only give you positive feedback, since that is what you put out there!
And I would love it if you gave it another go at
non-partisan debate.
The problem is this. An interesting dynamic has happened on the site. Those who don't like the nasty fighting on the front page now go directly into groups. They are very active. In order to get them to come out and participate, we have to try and be more civil... which means more moderation... which is then upsets people. Kind of a lose/lose.
Damn my comment got eaten. Probably better off.
Perrie ,
Although there are problems with memes [ mostly that they are difficult to counter intelligently ] I forsee a problem just outlawing them . I could see someone who had a political point to make merely classifying his meme under humor where one would not outlaw it . A lot of memes are sarcastic humor anyway so that would be an accurate classification .
Mike, I wondered where this started. Petey implied something from another article. I'm sorry if I missed a link. Knowing, would make this article make more sense.
Petey,
I think there is a preference for words as well, however, I think memes can have a place. Sometimes we just want to make a point and end it (if the dissenter will).
Perrie ,
If that is the case I would find no general complaint with such a cut&paste comment . Such a comment usually shows that the poster had at least attempted to absorb the material he posted . The ones I have a problem with is a lengthy one which was not even read by the poster . But I don't think such comments should be outlawed because it is possible to refute such a comment even without doing the work required to read it all .
By contrast there is no lengthy reading required for a meme but they are still hard to refute intelligently . That is , as I see it , what your objection to them is . But I still see a problem with outlawing memes as described here :
John,
Pretty much my opinion as well.
I noticed that, but I think that is here on NT. I don't think you would find it as obvious elsewhere. I think it comes from always being put on the defensive.
Yes, defending them, but I don't think they are considered a "best foot" by the user. Just another foot.
Agreed. Discussion is a result of much more content than a meme.
I made that point as well...it can be a nice way of making a statement that we're hoping will end discussion, but might still instigate dissenting memes in return.
John, I said to myself I would not say anything more about this, but call me a liar. I have to tell you..... Take a deep breath (that's me)....
Let's put it this way. I defend your right to put up an article which only has Cent giving the finger to the camera man, no words, nada. I don't really think it is your best foot, but the only difference in the article we're discussing and yours is you've put a video as the first comment, meaning anyone who came across it on the internet would have to go to the comments to get the complete article.
Until I read your criticism above I wasn't going to say anything, but dang you keep asking for it.
And everything you are insinuating about others is exactly what you did. And what is even more troubling is I wonder if you will be able to see it for what it is.
Hey, you can do what you want, but I think you could exclude yourself from those insinuations a little better if you took you first comment and put it in the article. Then you could make a comment which would put it at the top of the page so anyone could sit back and listen to a nut rant and curse for 5 minutes.
da cat need to be red to be Grumpy Perrie.
Come into my car, little girl, and I'll give you a cookie! Bwahahaha!
Neale, darling, lover, I have not made the rules here.They were made by the members and These rules are voted on annually and more often if a change is needed.
Now to your question. The meme in itself isn't an article. It can be part of an article, but not as a stand alone. It doesn't allow for discussion, and that is what we are, a discussion forum. A person can moderate their own article by setting the tone and reporting to a mod. We are all willing to be helpful to any author/seeder. But what made the issue worse in this case is that the meme was posted and left for hours, which means that all havok can happen. This is not a CoC offense, so please don't misunderstand me. I understand that you can't be on your article 24/7 but posting one and then not checking it for a day, isn't cool, although it is often done.
Did I pass?
fair enough. Und now, I gracefully bow out......
Yes....true.
I don't know where the
came from, but that is true.
Oh that is true, but you took it to the next level with your fire and brimstone comment. As an ex mod, you should know that makes the job only harder.
Yes I do. I see ya on chat. But to clarify...
If I am participating in an article, I can't moderate. If I see something I get a moderator. Otherwise, I am available to moderate for you. My advice to you would be, if you see something or someone is harassing you, get a mod.
Yeah I do remember that issue and I thought we had grown past that.
Now that is insulting. You have no idea what I do here. I am not only the lead moderator, but site coder, email answer, tech issue solver, IM question answer. I am also in the midst of building a new site. And no I never said I was on every article, but when there is a big issue like this, it falls on my lap, and guess what... I didn't go to bed until almost 3 am last nightbecauseafter handling all the comments I still had to do all the email that Ifell behind on. Right now, as I sit here and type this to you, there are 7 pieces of email waiting for me and two IM's on hold. I am not saying this for pity or for a pat on the back, but just to set the record straight why I resent the extraworkload. It's not that your overall behavior is bad, but I resent that you talk down to me.And no my underwear isn't in a twist....I just expect you to be civil with me, as you should expect from me.
Petey,
Memes have merit. I have said this over and over. They even have merit in an article... as part of the article. But as the only thing in the article, they don't foster discussion... at least political discussion and that is what this site is... a news and politics site.
But I think back to the "not news" and no poll days of NV and hate that, too. Yes memes can be funny and if the classification is humor, I'm good with that. But then some clown will find the loophole to that and make a political humor meme as an article and we will be back to this all over again.
But bottom line... This will be brought to the group for voting on, soon. But first I the members have to understand what they are voting for or against, and many people here really don't know what a meme is.... that will have to be explained... and the pros and cons that go along with the issue.
Hey fish boy,
That better not be directed to me.
Perrie ,
Here's another thing to consider . Posting a graph might be considered to be a picture and therefore a meme .
For example the famous "hockey stick" graph from Michael Mann is so well known it has become a meme . Should that be outlawed as well ?
Or we could make a category for meme styled discussions.....
Most of the so called memes on the internet (as opposed to the classically defined memes) are designed to make you laugh, so I think that would be an appropriate category, though I would not want to restrict where people post that much, just because.
Most people should be able to figure it out.
After reading the discussion above, I now see where this discussion was coming from.
Thank you for your comment Bruce.
The Golden Rule...
As for the meme vs. counter meme... I don't think it leads to discussion, necessarily, do you? I find it sets up antagonism. What do you think?
Probably a good move. Thanks.
Perrie
I seem to remember a novel that covered situations like this - Catch-22 it was called
Abandoning the forum for group discussions only is certainly something to think about and I will
Because we rumbled over this, I return for a brief "Understood, Mike" BTW- the Bias I was actually referring to was against memes.
Perrie- this may be rules SET by the group, but I never obey a buncha monkeys making rules. But I DO listen to redheads...... So this mess is YOURS in my book- and usually (hell, most of the time) you do a damn good job.
Oh, it is SOOOO on now, boy!
Composed on the spot (well, plagiarized right on the spot
) just for Mike.
He who memes on forum walls
Rolls his shit in tiny balls
But YOU who read Mikes words of wit
Eat those tiny balls of shit
Bwahahahahaha! (runs off cackling maniacally)
MEME:
NON-MEME:
MEME:
NON-MEME:
Hope this helps clear it up...
Mimes are not memes ... How about a political commentary that shows a mime wearing a button that says he has been silenced by the government ?
Perhaps the ultimate oxymoron...
I thought it was a good comment ... even without pictures .