Climate Change Survey: Majority of Voters Support Initiatives
By: John Schwartz (New York Times)
Political science won't address climate change. The only thing political science accomplishes is misleading the public into accepting bad policy.
We know human activities can affect climate. Scientific evidence showed that chlorinated refrigerants was destroying the protective ozone layer. Political scientists point to the Montreal protocol as a political solution that saved the planet. But what the public has not been told is that the CFC refrigerants and replacement HFC refrigerants are greenhouse gases thousands of times more potent than carbon dioxide. And these fluorinated gases are used for many more purposes than just air conditioning and refrigeration. They are used as cleaning agents in manufacturing; including manufacture of solar panels and wind turbines. Today's emissions of fluorinated gases are the equivalent of 1 to 2 billion tons of carbon dioxide emissions (or more). Reducing or eliminating fossil fuels will not eliminate the emission of fluorinated gases; in fact emissions of fluorinated gases may increase.
The culprit responsible for changing the climate has been identified as carbon dioxide. We know that carbon dioxide emissions are caused mainly by consumption of energy. Reducing consumption of energy would also reduce carbon dioxide emissions. That suggests that reducing or curtailing non-essential activities that consume energy would directly address climate change. The coronavirus pandemic has identified non-essential activities. The mandates and restrictions imposed to control spread of the virus have also been addressing climate change. Permanently reducing or curtailing those identified non-essential activities would immediately reduce carbon dioxide emissions, speed efforts to address climate change, and lower the cost of transitioning away from fossil fuels. Eliminating consumption of energy for non-essential activities would require fewer solar panels and wind turbines and lessen the environmental impact of manufacturing solar panels and wind turbines.
There has been a lot of hype by political scientists that transitioning away from fossil fuels would create millions of new jobs. But creating those new jobs will eliminate old jobs. The transition in energy supply and consumption will result in more job displacement than growth in the job market. The interesting aspect of that job displacement (which political scientists avoid discussing) is that jobs will begin migrating to rural areas that are amenable to utility scale solar and wind while suburban and urban energy related jobs would be eliminated. The current retail based energy supply will be replaced by an infrastructure based energy supply located well away from suburban and urban areas. Infrastructure may well be very good for creating short term jobs but, historically, infrastructure hasn't been a viable means of creating permanent jobs.
Political scientists have been telling the pubic they can have their cake and eat it, too. Politicians, like Joe Biden, have been touting political solutions involving large expenditures of cash. And opportunists and profiteers are being attracted by that political largess. The political players have been hyping climate tech the same way they hyped biotech to make a buck. How well has that biotech hype panned out during the pandemic? Why should we accept that the climate hype will play out any differently?
Believing whatever you want to believe won't end the pandemic and won't stop climate change, either.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
A majority of registered voters of both parties in the United States support initiatives to fight climate change, including many that are outlined in the climate plans announced by President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr., according to a new survey. [Seeder's note: the link redirects to an article published by the New York Times.]
The survey, which was conducted after the presidential election, suggests that a majority of Americans in both parties want a government that deals forcefully with climate change instead of denying its urgency — or denying that it exists.
In the survey, published Friday by the Yale Program on Climate Change Communication and the George Mason University Center for Climate Change Communication, 53 percent of registered voters said that global warming should be a high or very high priority for the president and Congress, and 66 percent said that developing sources of clean energy should be a high or very high priority.
Eight in 10 supported achieving those ends by providing tax breaks to people who buy electric vehicles or solar panels, and by investing in renewable energy research.
"These results show there's very strong public support for bold, ambitious action on climate change and clean energy," said Anthony Leiserowitz, who heads the Yale program. That suggests an opening for bipartisan legislation backed by lawmakers' constituents.
During the campaign, Mr. Biden spoke often about how his proposals would generate jobs, and the survey indicates broad support for that idea, and not just in the jobs that would come with creating renewable energy.
Of those polled, 83 percent said they supported creating a jobs program that would hire unemployed coal workers, shut down old coal mines safely, and restore the natural landscape. The same percentage said they supported a jobs program that would shut down the thousands of abandoned oil and gas wells around the nation, which pollute water and leak methane, a potent greenhouse gas.
Some of the policies that appear in the survey echo Mr. Biden's campaign points closely, including support among 78 percent of those surveyed for setting stronger vehicle fuel efficiency standards and 67 percent support for installing 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations across the United States by 2030.
The nation is still divided politically, of course, with higher levels of support for some of the initiatives among Democrats than Republicans. The percentage of liberal Democrats who said that global warming should be a high or very high priority stood at 86 percent; among conservative Republicans, the figure was just 12 percent, and among all Republicans, that figure was closer to 23 percent.
While 93 percent of liberal Democrats said they thought developing sources of clean energy should be a high or very high priority for the president and Congress, just 32 percent of conservative Republicans did; among all Republicans, however, the figure was 43 percent — and 58 percent among liberal and moderate Republicans.
An incentive program promoting renewable energy might gain support from conservatives seeking energy independence or economic development, Dr. Leiserowitz, said, even if they may not be as deeply concerned about addressing climate change. "There are many roads to Damascus," he said.
The Green New Deal, a package of progressive proposals for fighting climate change that has been heavily attacked by conservatives, got the support of 66 percent of those polled, a lower figure than many of the specific proposals discussed in the survey. Mr. Biden has declined to support the Green New Deal specifically, though his campaign called it a "crucial framework" for climate action.
Some of the signature initiatives of the Trump administration proved to be deeply unpopular with the public, especially the effort to promote drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska: Only 28 percent of voters favored it. Just 40 percent supported drilling for and mining fossil fuels on public lands, and 47 percent supported expanding U.S. offshore oil and natural gas drilling.
As for the Paris climate agreement, which Mr. Trump abandoned with great fanfare, 75 percent of American voters said they wanted the nation back in. And while Mr. Trump heralded his aggressive efforts to relax energy efficiency standards for home appliances like dishwashers and light bulbs, 83 percent of the voters in the survey said they supported more energy-efficient appliances.
The fact that interest in climate issues is so strong, considering the proliferation of crises that include the coronavirus pandemic and its attendant economic woes, and the months of unrest over racism, is impressive, Dr. Leiserowitz said. In part it might be attributed to increased media coverage and events like the very active wildfire and hurricane seasons last year.
"For most people, until recently, climate change has been an abstract issue," he said.
The survey of 1,036 registered voters was conducted between Dec. 3 and Dec. 16 and has a margin of error of three percentage points.
Dr. Leiserowitz said that the support for government action to get the nation moving toward a clean-energy future, even among conservative Republicans, showed a shift in American political thinking.
"We are in a fundamentally different political climate today than when we lived in the 1980s and '90s," he said.
This survey suggests that Americans accept the idea that "the free market alone is not going to solve people's problems," he said. "It takes a strong government to fix these problems."
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Let's have an honest discussion about climate change. How much is truth and how much is hype?
Oh man, you sound like you're itching for a fight... cuz you know what's coming..... LOL
Only if honesty takes a holiday.
Wait... you can ask that question around here? A better question would be when has honesty not taking a holiday around here...
[[delete]]
"Truth" is what the scientific evidence shows. Hype is what Hollywood shows. Some might be unable to discern the difference.
Overpopulation is the root cause of climate change, but politicians do not want to address that
The root cause of climate change is actually over consumption. Increasing population size certainly contributes to over consumption. But the problem is really caused by how much humans consume; especially for non-essential activities that are not required for survival or even for a comfortable lifestyle.
I agree. If we all consumed like the people in Bangladesh, we have plenty of resources.
I was typing a comment below while you were posting this.
The more humans there are, the more is consumed. The more that is consumed, the more that climate becomes negatively affected. It's a snowball effect.
A capitalistic society cannot survive a society that consumes responsibly.
In the US, we are educated from birth that the more crap we own, the more successful we are and the happier we are.
So we buy stuff we can't afford to put in houses we can't afford and even rent storage when our residences won't hold more crap. Eventually, most of our "treasures" wind up in a landfill.
We are literally building mountains of trash in the US on a daily basis.
Few people, in the US, seem to give a tinker's damn about anything except consuming until their bodies and credit are maxxed out.
There are psychological reasons for these types of self-destructive behaviors, but it takes too much education and research to delve deeply in why our species will never address climate change in a meaningful way.
That sums up the underlying problem very well. Kudos.
Probably because it is a hypothetical event far into the future being fueled by hysterical fear mongering
Not according to actual science and observations.
While I wholeheartedly agree with everything else you wrote, I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it would be more likely capitalism wouldn't look as it does today if society consumed responsibly. Capitalism has been with us a long time and for most of it, it didn't look like it does today.
Products (made in the USA) used to be made to last - decades or longer.
Craftsman tools had a lifetime warranty because the tools were made to last.
My current washing machine (light use) has not lasted 5 years. Even if it was assembled in the US, the parts were most likely made as China cheap so it would have to be replaced as soon as possible.
People did not work all week and shop all week in stores and online to have the latest, greatest bling, tool, or clothing item to fill the emptiness in their souls, or to try to impress others or even to try to create envy or admiration in others.
Today's capitalism is filling the void that its advertising "happiness for sale" campaign has successfully waged on people's susceptible minds for decades.
Today's capitalism has supplied a meager wage and ample credit to the wage slaves to make this type of consumption possible. Because a handful of people around the globe win the economic lottery by being filmable or playing a sport, it gives the wage slaves the dream that someday it will happen to them, also. In the meantime, they will settle for financing a life they can't afford. I guess this is why so many people are not completely horrified by our government borrowing/printing trillions of dollars that the wage slaves will only get a pittance, but the millionaires are overdrawn and that cannot be allowed in today's world.
The US government only pays attention to the homeless or poor when it is politically advantageous. When it isn't, our government allows loan sharks and other economic predators to take advantage of the people who really need a financial advisor, and possibly a lifelong guardian.
I can't, nor wouldn't, argue with a thing you say. I agree pretty much with all of it. But, I think that if society managed to change its spending habits to something more responsible, manufacturers would be forced to adapt or go out of business. A lot of them would anyway, the one's that sold frivolous crap. And because we were buying less, a lot of jobs would be lost, but probably more overseas than here, since that is where most things are made these days. Not sure, but I get the feeling that one result would be an increase of cottage industries to make up for things that might no longer be available or people could just do cheaper themselves for their neighborhoods. In short, I think it would yank capitalism back into a better direction.
I'm not an economist or anything close, so maybe I'm wrong, but a nation that switched from what we are now to responsible and frugal consumerism would be a pretty fundamental change. Capitalism, at least here, would have to change. It simply couldn't exist for long in its current form.
I agree.
However, the "society" in the US is owned and controlled by capitalists that have learned how to manipulate us from cradle to grave with having us competing against one another for the promise of economic and personal reward if we buy into their advertising campaigns.
The internet is filled with "how to" videos on creating or remodeling just about anything. Many Americans are very creative. I was impressed with videos about how to build simple desks for the students who have had to home school in the past year. Home improvement stores are doing a booming business. I hope this trend continues.
Another trend that will hopefully continue is people having the time and the skill to cook at home. Eating out costs 300 percent (and up) more for a meal than eating at home. It is usually healthier to eat at home. This could be one of the most beneficial trends to happen because of the pandemic....other than for the restaurant industry. However, prior to the 1980s, the majority of US citizens ate at home and even took their own lunch. Our nation was also much healthier before fast food consumption took precedence over homecooked meals.
The pandemic has been devastating on just about every level conceivable. But it has made us stop and look at our lives and maybe re-evaluate our priorities....at least for some of us.
Yeah. I think a large part of that is due to the public education system, which doesn't do a think to teach kids how to think, but that's a whole nother can o' worms.
In any case, everyone thinks the problem is solved with political solutions like capitalism or socialism. Really, I think people just need to wake up and realize it's mostly about personal responsibility. You mention "how to" videos and cooking at home. That's personal responsibility, or an aspect of it. Everyone wants to moan about how rich the rich are. Waste of time. They'll always be there. Just figure out what you (meaning anyone) need to do and get to it. Take charge of yourself. You know? Everyone needs to freaking quit worrying about what everyone else is doing and just get to it. Make it happen.
Yep. I've been quarantined since November. Makes you realize just how fragile things can be. Fortunately I'm not hurting and I've got a job to go back to when I eventually get well, which seems to be happening, but slowly. Point is, it could have been different and this could really hurt. Or maybe where I work goes out of business. Anything can happen. So, I try to live frugally. Save money. Invest. Don't take things for granted in other words.
Probably the people who exemplify what you and I are talking about are our grandparents or great grandparents, who experienced the depression. I remember that my grandparents never left a speck of food on their plates. And I knew the reason at a very young age. When you've known hunger you wake up to reality in a hurry. They could pinch a penny until it squealed. I know were my father lived until he was twelve. What was basically a large shed my grandfather converted into a house, My grandparents, my father and her sister all slept in the same bedroom the size of today's walk in closet. When my grandparents finally passed, they left a nice, but average house filled with nice, but basic things collected over a lifetime. Nothing fancy, but they enjoyed safe, worry free golden years, free of want like they experienced in the depression. And they were happy. They never had a desire for a new car. A bigger TV. The latest whatever. They knew what a blessed life looked like and were grateful to have it.
Oh, yeah. So as not to get too far off topic, I think it couldn't help but improve the carbon footprint as well.
Yes.
My home area of northwest Arkansas was populated by people who eked out a living trying to farm rocks with a little dirt scattered among them. People saved everything they could because many of them remembered when they did not know when they would eat again. Even in the 1960s, they raised gardens and lived on mostly what they raised. Meals were simple food seasoned with salt and pepper. Desserts were homemade pies, cakes or cookies, but not an everyday staple. My adopted grandmother and adopted mother made part of my school clothes. I also happily wore hand me downs.
My adopted grandmother had one of the most horrific childhoods of anyone I've known. She was very frugal, but also very loving and giving to most people. I have a cousin who doesn't have quite as fond memories, but my cousin was a person who had much and valued nothing from a very young age. I loved my cousin dearly, but I have matured enough to understand my grandmother's frustration with her.
Courtesy of Wal-Mart home office, the locals have lost their farms to taxes as subdivisions grew up around them. Many farmers/farming families have had to relocate to more remote areas of Arkansas or Missouri because they can no longer afford to live in the area they were born and raised in.
I don't wish the "good old days" on anyone. They weren't all good or all bad. Much like today. We are a work in progress.
I do want cleaner water, cleaner air and food supplies that aren't drenched in poison for everyone.
And even more than that, I want people to really appreciate the sheer joy of walking in forests and fields and communing with the other species of life that inhabit this planet with us instead of ignoring our role in making them extinct by not protecting our resources properly. We are not immune from the extinction list.
I think we are pretty much doomed. Hate to say it. I think it's this sense of entitlement that is so prevalent these days. As if the mere fact we are born means we are owed things in life. I think the only thing we owe others is human decency, but that's about it. It's right for me to care for others, but it isn't right that others demand that I care for them. I don't think they owe me anything beyond common courtesy and a fair chance. The rest is up to me. I'll gladly accept help, but I don't demand it. I'll gladly give help but don't think I owe it. It's just the right thing to do.
I agree.
The numbers of narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths seem to be rising in the United States on unprecedented levels. These folks have zero respect for anyone or anything.
I agree with you. We are pretty much doomed.
You know what keeps me from depression? What keeps me hopeful and sane in spite of what I see going on around me?
God.
Yeah, I know. Some version of it being a crutch. Something that helps me cope. Warm and fuzzy and all that. Whatever. What I know is, it explains everything. Right down to the last detail. It's like one of those movies where you think you know what's going on, but then, towards the end, one key piece of information is added that changes everything. Like that movie The Sixth Sense. It's like the whole world is following one plot they think is The Plot, when it turns out it's something completely different.
God designed this world to be one thing, but we're chasing another. Predictably, we get what we have now. But few people see it. That's how it seems to me.
I think that you and I have interacted enough to know our stances on religion.
I was a serene Christian because I cherry picked the Bible. I am now a serene atheist who loves life and wants a humane world because that is how I am wired to feel.
Being empathetic, sympathetic, caring people places us at a disadvantage when dealing with people who are wired to feel little to none of those emotions.
I have no issue with people using any religion as their personal crutch in our chaotic world as long as they do not use that crutch to harm others.
The people that I have loved most in life have been and still are mostly liberal Christians. I don't "unlove" people just because our paths have diverged at some point in life. Sometimes, my life would be easier if I could.
All of my life, I was never comfortable in crowds. (Crowds being an area with more than 4 or 5 people.) I was never a fan of gossip or understood people's obsession with other people. I preferred books, animals and nature to people. Still do. It is not because I don't "like" people. I just find being around them to be draining, both emotionally and physically. I want to "help" them and make their pain go away. I have recently discovered that this is probably because I am more empathetic than average (whatever average means).
Because I have largely lived my life as a loner by choice, the pandemic has not had the severe impact on my life that it has had on extroverts who crave interaction with others to give them energy. Winter weather is my nemesis at this time.
The pandemic has allowed introverts some much needed breathing room and maybe a chance to make a living working remotely from their homes for months, maybe forever. This will somewhat lessen the demand for fossil fuels, but have a detrimental impact on world economy as workers buy fewer clothes, meals, cars, and rides on public transportation.
The pandemic has probably not been beneficial to the mental and physical health of extroverts who need interaction with others to sustain them.
Yes. That is why I said...
I am a loner and introvert as well. I find it difficult to interact with people. Since you also are the same way, you might understand when I say, for me, it feels like I can see a world others can't. And I'm not strictly speaking religiously. It feels like I'm a stranger in the world I was born in. So it makes it hard to relate to others who seem to live in a different one.
I don't think it's a recent discovery for me. I feel like I can see what causes the pain in others, generally, but feel powerless to do anything about it because their worldview won't allow them to see it, if that makes any sense.
What is so amazing to me, though, is how much alike we seem, at least concerning this, yet have such a different view of God. I know to you it is merely a crutch. Something that works for me. But that isn't how I see it. It certainly gives me comfort and strength, yes, but it is more than that. It's not just a system. A program to make sense of things. That makes it sound like choosing Pilates as an exercise regimen over other possible regimens.
Do you believe in gravity? The solidity of granite? Are you fundamentally aware of your need of this planet in order to exist? When you wake up in the morning, do you expect the fundamental properties of the universe to be the same as when you went to bed?
That's God, to me. It isn't simply a crutch, because quite honestly, believing in God causes a lot of pain as well. It isn't always comfort. God is a fundamental understanding of the world in which I find myself. He isn't simply a coping method. I could no more deny God than I could deny gravity and for the same reason.
I say this in response to...
It isn't that what you said offends me. You think of it as you think of it and I know there's no malice in it. But it seems to me that it indicates a rather superficial treatment of the subject. At least in my case and, I believe, many others. It isn't simply a coping method. It is a belief as fundamental as the sun being the center of the solar system. Of gravity. The laws of physics. Coping is a side effect. To dismiss it as a coping method would be like saying believing in gravity is a coping method for those who fear they may spontaneously float off into space.
I was a Christian for over 5 decades of my life. The transition to becoming an atheist was painful. The process in reevaluating the entire basis for my existence was not superficial. I had to endure all of the stages of grief. I have come out the other side being a stronger, more grateful and more understanding person. I have read enough history to be extremely thankful for having lived in the time period that I have existed in.
This also means that I am harder to manipulate because I gave up the indoctrination that everyone has a "divine special purpose" and will be judged in an afterlife. I have spent over a year educating myself on the evolution of behavior in humans, narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths. One book I heartily recommend is "You are Not so Smart" by David McRaney. He explains how we are easily susceptible to all kinds of manipulations.
Because this is the only life that I now know that I will ever have in this life form, I am prioritizing making my life as pleasant as possible and minimizing harming anything by my short lifespan in the overall scheme of existence. I have no fear of death. I just don't want to suffer.
What you view as God, I view as existence itself.
The reverence that you feel of God, I feel of existence.
It is the same feeling, just different definitions.
Some people use the term "spiritual".
As highly sensitive empaths, we are connected to existence in ways that defy explanation to most people.
This is why I have almost quit the internet entirely.
I cannot deal with all of the fear and hate.
I
I understand. What I said was not judgment of your view. You need not defend your position to me. What I said was an effort to communicate my view. I wanted to convey that what I believe I believe on a fundamental level and not something casual as a "system". I assume that your reality is believed by you on a fundamental level and not some "crutch" that works for you. I wanted to convey that it is the same for me. What I believe is because I believe it is fundamental and not merely a "crutch".
Put another way, I have to fight the inclination to dismiss your view because they don't align with mine. It doesn't match what I believe. While I believe your view is wrong, I need to understand that you hold it to be true in the same manner I hold my view to be true. I need to take it seriously and not simply dismiss it because it disagrees with my views.
Believe me, I understand. I've noted your absence. But whether you choose to retreat entirely nor not, the fear and hate will still be there. What good is your empathy if you retreat? I suppose if you are an atheist in truth, such a question doesn't matter. If so, your empathy is an aberration. A flaw in the evolutionary scheme. Something to be exorcized. Just random electrical pulses in a mechanical mechanism we call the brain.
Does that feel like the truth to you? Do you think your empathy is worthless? An evolutionary dead end? If not, why do you think it comes without a price? From my perspective, the fear and hate comes from opposing God's desire for us. But even in your atheistic view, is not your empathy worth the pain and fear? Atheism would say no, because there is no purpose to our existence. There's no ultimate goal. There is no entity that establishes right and wrong, good and bad. Therefore, there's nothing wrong with quitting, for there is no goal to attain.
But does it feel that way to you? Do you feel your empathy doesn't matter?
Drakkonis, I don't share a lot of my personal life because it is too painful...way too painful. Some days I hang on to my life by a thread just trying to maintain until I can cope.
I am married to a narcissist that is 73 years old and gets more violent by the year. I did not know what the Hell I was dealing with or how much I had been conditioned to accept massive abuse as a normal way of life. I am trying to learn new skills and survive so I am not a hot mess all of the time.
Last week, he grabbed his shotgun, pointed it at my chest from 2 feet away and threatened to murder me.
My choices are pretty much limited to being homeless or walking on eggshells in real life.
So please forgive me if I am not up to saving the world at this time.
My apologies. I thought you were single, as I am. I was speaking in generalities and not to your specific situation, which I did not know about. Please forgive me.
Is there some way I can help you in your situation?
If you have a place to stay, can you leave?
I've been trying all sorts of new recipes. I can't afford to feed a family of 5 with prepared foods... Jimmy Johns for the 5 of us is $75!!! Hell... a McD's trip costs $40! I'm also teaching my kids how to cook too. Yesterday, the "adopted one" (my daughter's 19 yr old boyfriend) cooked breakfast; eggs, and sausage gravy w/biscuits. My daughter (17) cooked spaghetti for dinner. My mother never did that for me, but I still paid attention; especially to the "easy" stuff. Nearly nothing I make is very difficult, because I work full time.
I go to the local "mom n pop" market (3 blocks away) once a week, where the owner knows me personally, and I buy foods based on meals that will feed us all. I might only buy a couple of types of meats, because I prefer it fresh, but I can always send one of the teens up to that market to grab something if needed. I prefer to shop local... I know where my goods come from when I do that. Yes, it might cost about 2% more, but I'm supporting my community.
You're absolutely right. I've actually done that myself. I'm also far more grateful for what I do have and CAN do; most don't have the capability to work from home and make a decent living at it. My household has always been closer than most. I don't know too many parents that can say that their kids actually like playing board games with them or invite them to play a video game or ask to go to the grocery store with them. But my husband and I are open and honest with them about everything and they are with us in return. I couldn't ask for anything better right now.
Empath is exactly what I was thinking. My daughter and I are very much that way. I don't remember a time when I wasn't like this. As a kid, I never wanted to go to birthday parties, because there were too many kids there. As an adult, I recognize when I'm about to "lose it" and find someplace quiet to breathe. You're actually feeling all of the people's energies around you and it's an overload to your system. You feel like you're about to jump out of your own skin. I began feeling like that on the way back from my honeymoon and it took my husband a minute to realize what was going on. He got a pair of earbuds from the flight attendant, handed them to me, plugged them into the little radio plug in the armrest, and helped me cover my face while holding me tight for comfort. Not like you can escape from an airplane.
I've only filled my gas tank in my Fiesta 6 times in a year and that was partly because my husband has been driving my car that the 10 mile round trip to and from work... rather than his 1973 Ford F-series with a carbureted big block. So, yes me working from home has been, not only great for me [and my family], but far better on our environment.
I understand why she chooses retreat. It's to protect herself. How good is someone to others when they're not in their healthiest state?
My former father in law did that with his 2nd wife. My ex husband started showing signs of violent temper shortly after we were married. It took me another 5 years to get out, but I was young and knew I had to get the hell out. Oddly enough, my ex has become a better person over the years, but I'm positive he would NOT have grown if I had not left.
I definitely understand your situation is different in several ways, but just know that there are people that understand how you're feeling.
Me personally? No. I have learned that caring people don't talk in the following manner to anyone. Those words are more narcissistic than empathetic. I wouldn't have noticed this level of condescenion in words just a few short months ago. I am constantly amazed at the level of brainwashing that I had to be polite when I should have known better.
I am surrounded by Christian people with your judgmental attitude of what is or is not a "good" person.
A man can commit heinous crimes against women and children and still be considered a righteous man if he claims the devil made him do it and he professes a belief in Jesus and promises to do better. This how "Christian" women are taught to put up with every abuse heaped on them by the mentally ill men in their lives. We are taught to pray for him and God will handle the situation as He sees fit.
Indoctrination into the Christian religion is one of the major reasons that I was conditioned to accept abuse as love from an early age. Between Christian indoctrination and a high degree of empathy, I have learned why I am narc bait. I am learning to create boundaries with people and walk away when those boundaries are crossed instead of giving not only second chances but the 100th second chance.
I would have probably already been dead by now if I had not gained access to the internet and the people who have educated me on reality.
Yes and no.
I could leave with the clothes on my back. This is common for anyone divorcing a narc. I have already given my daughter anything she want of family value so there is nothing here that I am attached to except my cats, chickens, garden and calm of living in sparsely settled countryside.
Most of husband's narc support have died or not spoken to him in years.
If I leave and he does not find a new support group for his narc grandiose behavior and narc rage, then he might decide this, as always, is all my fault and make me pay by harming my daughter or granddaughter.
I would prefer to be dead than have to live with that. On an intellectual level, I know none of this is my fault. On an emotional level, I couldn't deal.
You are so kind for caring.
Societys are not based on each individual deciding from moment to moment what they do or do not agree with. If you want to continue as a member of society you can work to change the politics or the social mores, but you cant refuse to accept them.
The United States is a society of 330 million people, and "help" will go to those who need it, whether you or I agree with that or not. Libertarianism will never succeed in such a large country. We keep hearing about it because people like to engage in utopian fantasies.
It is far more likely that the US will end up a dystopia than that it will end up a libertarian utopia.
Yes. I am so grateful that the internet has allowed me to read and occasionally converse with fellow empaths. I have enjoyed reading about your life when I happen to come across them. I have had to limit reading the news or blogs for years because of the sheer hostility. Covid seemed to make it worse and I did not think that was possible. If not for Covid, my husband would have spent more time away from the house and found outlets for his ego and rage elsewhere.
My younger daughter is an empath. My older daughter is a charismatic narcissistic who has the exact same personality as my current husband. I did not understand her games and did not play properly so she hasn't spoken to me in 10 years. It broke my heart in ways that I did not know that I hurt and still survive. Now I understand more about the science of our bodies and brains, I have gained some perspective, but the love will never die because love is not a choice. The only choice I have is to never have her in life again for any reason.
Around 20 years ago, there were ads on television for a drug to "help" people who had problems in social situations. Evidently, being an empath was viewed by the medical community as a disease that needs to be treated.
That's why I left with my stuff while my ex was at work. My friends and neighbors helped get me out in about 6 hours. Our daughter was with my mom and stepdad so he couldn't claim that I kidnapped her. I disclosed where she was when he called me, but my stepdad was ready for him and he did NOT know where I was. Even my former sister in law said, "Please don't be there when he gets home!" She knew how he could be. It still bothers me that no one warned me.
And that is why I post "puff pieces" about coffee, favorite cars, music, etc. You're more than welcome to go to my profile and check them all out... I don't even care if you decide to comment on something that's old.
Please believe me that, when I said the following....
... I would not have said it had I known your situation. Nor was it in any way said in judgement of you, although I can see why you see it as judgmental. Especially in light of your revelation. In that light what I said just sounds asinine, and as if I were finding fault in you.
I know myself. Because of what I know of myself I know I have no justification for judging anyone. All I need do to find someone worse is to look in a mirror.
In my admittedly clumsy way, my intent was to encourage your empathy, not to judge you for it.
What you say here is absolutely true, especially historically. But it doesn't represent all of Christianity. That is, not all of Christianity handles abuse that way. That isn't said in defense or to excuse what you describe, but as simple fact.
Believe it or not, I understand. I feel sorrow for you and that this was the kind of Christianity you were exposed to. Again, had I known your situation, I would not have spoken as I did and, for that, I am sorry.
Really?
I am well acquainted with the practices of a lot of sects of Christianity.
Which sects do not teach the submissive women doctrine?
Which sects teach about narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths? And how to avoid them? How to divorce them?
Which sects support victims of abuse?
No one should have to share what I did in order to be treated with respect. This is why I limit interaction with people who do not understand abuse.
If you are truly repentant, you will treat others accordingly.
If you do that, I accept your apology.
Good to see you here, hope you visit more often but I understand why you may not. The rhetoric gets toxic sometimes.
Yes, it does. Some of it is caused by the chaotic world we live in caused in part by a government run by narcissists enriching themselves instead of our society. We have little to no social safety net because we are told endlessly there is no money for it. But I will bet there will be a trillion or two available for the next war(s), our government will deem necessary before the next 4 years are up.
I prefer understanding to conflict. It is my need for understanding and my compassion that have resulted in allowing toxic people in my life on an ongoing personal basis.
BTW, it is nice to see you, also.
Couldn't say. I am nondenominational, so I generally don't pay attention to what various sects believe unless something specific presents itself to my attention. I am aware of the various attitudes on the subject, but I couldn't say which sects believe what. I could tell you what some of the churches I've attended have to say about it, though. Or, if you wish, I could tell you my own belief on the subject.
As specific, individual subjects? None that I am aware of, but there may be some in spite of that. In a general sense? All of them.
I assume you mean something closer to which sects support victims of abuse in the manner you are thinking of right now. Since I don't know what that is, specifically, I don't know if I can answer to your satisfaction. I suspect, though, that what you would consider support and what I consider support within the church would not be the same thing. I assume that support to you means helping someone leave an abusive relationship, church or no church.
What support within the church means to me. primarily, is the restoration of a correct relationship between spouses and God. I would like to stress the "God" part, since marriage only has importance as it relates to God, in my worldview.
Having said that, it should be noted that it doesn't specifically describe what "support" would necessarily mean within the church. That is, it doesn't necessarily mean that what happened to you, which seems to have been that you were told to just take it and pray, is the proper, Biblical way to support victims of marital abuse. I do not believe that is the proper Biblical response to marital abuse, nor do I believe the church I attend would say differently.
I said I regret what I said. Not because I thought it was untrue. I regret it because I did not know your situation. In light of that, how could I not think what I said would seem other than judgement of you? Whether you believe me or not, I was speaking about empathy and it's importance, trying to encourage you not to give up on it, not commenting on you personally. I certainly wasn't saying you should put up with a situation I didn't know about for the sake of empathy.
I agree. I can only say that what I said was not said with the intent of disrespecting you. In fact, I was delighted to find someone like me. Someone who seemed to be a loner due mostly to the strength of their empathy. Why would I disrespect you?
I understand, perhaps more than you realize. Most people do not understand how abusive they are and people like us limit interaction as a defense mechanism.
So, accept my apology or not. In my defense, I can only say I had no intent of either judging you or disrespecting you.
None of what you know or believe within the confines of your religiously indoctrinated mind is beneficial to a victim of abuse.
Your religion promotes endless abuse from cradle to grave.
Good people don't need a religion to teach them how to be good.
Abusive people use religion to justify their abuse because it comes from some supernatural being that sides with them on the issue.
I have come to contemplate what kinds of personality disorders the plagued the founders of primitive heinous religions that have managed to survive into today's world.
If you are truly sorry, there is no need for defense or explanation. You were wrong - end of story.
How can you know this without knowing what it is I believe concerning the issue of victims of abuse?
Wouldn't it be more fair to say that your image of what you imagine my religion to be promotes those things? I certainly don't think my religion promotes abuse. Just the opposite, in fact. I'm willing to discuss it with you if you're interested.
Wouldn't that depend on a person's definition of "good?" For instance, how would you apply the definition of good to the abortion debate? Whatever you submit as a definition, what can you point to to justify it, and why should anyone accept it as the standard of good?
This is certainly true. Abusive people do, in fact, use religion to justify their abuse. But that doesn't necessarily prove them right in their use of religion. For myself, I can't think of a single verse that would justify the abuse of my spouse but I can think of many to condemn it.
I spent over 5 decades of my life being indoctrinated with religious views in person, in church, in leaflets and on television.
I have spent hours reading your religious views on various discussions over the years.
I am as acquainted with your religious views as I ever want to be.
There is nothing beneficial about your, or anyone else's, religious views to my life.
My life truly began after freeing my mind from the shackles of religious indoctrination and control.
No, you haven't. You spent five decades of your life being indoctrinated with something but you have no idea what my religious views are, so you can't say you've been indoctrinated with my views. Well, you can, and have, but you are projecting, not speaking truth.
This isn't said in rancor, blame or some other emotion. It's simply an observational truth. I'm also aware that, should I attempt to explain my views, the likely outcome would be that you'd not give them real consideration but simply pass them off as what you already imagine them to be. That is, you wouldn't actually listen. I believe this is so because, without knowing what my beliefs actually are, you've already passed judgement on them and myself. There's nothing in that which suggests you'd listen even if I explained my beliefs.
And, as strange as it may seem to you, that isn't meant as a judgement of the person mocowgirl. It may be a judgement of your views, but not you. Were I to make a judgment of you (and in saying this, I suppose I have) you are a person who appears to have gone through a lifetime of pain that I have not. I judge that this pain has shaped your perceptions in such a way that you can't see the truth that I see. Conversely, my lack of experience of what you have experienced limits my understanding of your reality in spite of my belief I understand it to some degree.
My personal opinion of you is that I'm very pleased to know you. Most of that comes from finding what I believe is a kindred spirit in many ways. I feel that if I spoke of my insular life, you'd get it. Were I to describe you in visual terms, you seem a bright flame to me, although I suspect you see yourself as a guttering flame. I don't see our disagreement on religion as something that separates us but simply as different views and I have no issues with yours differing from mine. In other words, I accept you as you are and it isn't conditional. I don't need you to agree in order to appreciate you.
And that comes from my view of religion.
People should reduce their respiration rate by 50%!
Solar and wind power generation not consistent or reliable. Still need coal or NG backup available and online
Climate change is a self correcting problem. According to the science, a changing climate will kill people. But dead people don't cause climate change.
Political scientists spread a lot of hype about energy independence, too. Somehow we never got around to addressing how much energy was wasted.
Rolling coal only makes a political statement by wasting energy and making the country less energy independent. We are wasting energy on political stupidity.
Not directly. It's the environmental effects of climate change that will likely end up killing people.
It's mostly the live ones that do. And there are a lot of live ones.
Energy independence might be achievable, if we utilize energy responsibly.
And more polluted.
Cannot argue that.
It doesn't even need to be just about climate change. We all know we want energy. Most people don't want to go back to pre-industrial living. So why not make a concerted effort to produce energy that is clean and most minimally impacts the environment? You wouldn't think that would even be controversial.
An excellent suggestion and one which we are collectively starting to lean towards. The technology is there and gradually improving. The biggest challenge to that however is politics and infrastructure.
It shouldn't be.
Please note the sarcasm.
Sulfur hexafluoride is an inorganic fluorinated gas used in electrical systems to act as an insulator and prevent electrical arcing. SF6 is greenhouse gas that is about 20,000 times more potent than carbon dioxide. One pound of SF6 released into the atmosphere is the equivalent of 10 tons of carbon dioxide.
Yes, that's the stinky smell when you "let the smoke out of the wires."