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Fact-checking six of Kamala Harris's campaign claims

  
Via:  Texan1211  •  3 months ago  •  26 comments


Fact-checking six of Kamala Harris's campaign claims
BBC Verify examined claims made by Harris, about her record and Trump's on the economy, abortion and immigration.

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S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Kamala Harris has been holding rallies across the US as she campaigns against Donald Trump.

She has made a series of claims contrasting their records on the economy, healthcare, abortion and immigration.

BBC Verify has been examining them.

Is Trump planning to cut Social Security and Medicare?


CLAIM: "Donald Trump intends to cut Social Security and Medicare."

VERDICT: This is misleading. In this campaign, Mr Trump has said repeatedly he would not do this, although he has suggested he would in the past.

Social Security provides a source of income when you retire or if you cannot work due to a disability.

Medicare is a US government programme which provides healthcare coverage for millions of Americans who are retired or disabled.

"I will not cut 1 cent from Social Security or Medicare," Mr Trump said at a rally on 5 August.

And in his 20 point policy platform, one of the pledges is: "Fight for and protect Social Security and Medicare with no cuts."

However, during his time as president Mr Trump proposed several budgets which would have cut elements of Medicare, such as eliminating the programme advisng recipients how to sign up for benefits. None of these budget proposals was enacted.

He also has made comments about cutting Social Security in the past.

In an interview in March this year, on entitlement programs such as Social Security Mr Trump said: "There's a lot you can do in terms of entitlements, in terms of cutting."

However, he later clarified the comments, saying: "I will never do anything that will hurt or jeopardise Social Security or Medicare."

Is inflation down?


CLAIM: "Inflation is down under 3%."

VERDICT: That figure is correct but some context is needed here. Inflation is down from a peak of 9.1% under the Biden administration and it is higher than when Mr Trump left office.

When President Biden took office in January 2021, inflation was 1.4% but it rose significantly during the first two years of his administration.

This trend is comparable with many Western countries which saw high inflation in 2021 and 2022, as global supply chain issues as a consequence of Covid and the war in Ukraine contributed to rising prices.

While the Biden administration had limited control over these external factors, some economists say that their 2021 American Rescue Plan, worth $1.9tn (£1.5tn), also contributed to rising prices.

How many jobs has the Biden administration created?


CLAIM: "We have created 16 million new jobs."

VERDICT: That is roughly correct. 15.8 million jobs have been added under the Biden administration, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.

However, when the Biden government entered the White House in January 2021, the US was recovering from the Covid pandemic, which crippled the economy and during which more than 20 million jobs were lost.

"Many of the jobs would have come back if Trump had won in 2020 - but the American Rescue Plan played a major role in the speed and aggressiveness of the labour market recovery," says Professor Mark Strain, an economist at Georgetown University.

Since President Biden came into office, job growth has been strong, surpassing the pre-pandemic levels seen under Mr Trump.

However, weaker than expected job growth in July led to fears of a sudden downturn in the US economy and stock markets were hit as a result, but they have since stabilised.

Did Trump drive the US economy into the ground?


CLAIM: "He froze in the face of the COVID crisis. He drove our economy into the ground."

VERDICT: The US economy did take a big hit during the pandemic, like most countries, but it also bounced back under Mr Trump.

You can see from the graph above that there was a dramatic collapse in economic growth in the US during the Covid pandemic.

However following the pandemic, the US economy bounced back under Mr Trump.

He implemented a series of measures to help it recover, including financial assistance for small businesses.

During Mr Trump's four years in office (Jan 2017- Jan 2021), the average annual growth rate of the US economy was 2.3%.

Under the Biden administration, this figure has been 2.2% - so almost the same.

Did Trump tank the immigration deal?


CLAIM: "We had a chance to pass the toughest bipartisan border security bill in decades but Donald Trump tanked the deal."

VERDICT: Mr Trump was publicly against the Biden administration's immigration bill, but voting on it was up to Congress.

The immigration bill aimed to tighten asylum standards, increase spending on Border Patrol, and allow for the automatic closure of the southern border to illegal crossings if a certain daily threshold was reached.

It failed to pass a vote in February with the majority of lawmakers in the US Senate opposing it.

Mr Trump did not have a vote as he was not an elected official at the time, but he did call for his Republican allies to oppose it.

Getty ImagesIllegal immigration into the US across the southern border is a key issue in the presidential campaign

Mr Trump also took credit when the bill failed, saying it was "horrendous" as he thought it was not tough enough on immigration.

At a Fox News event in February 2024, he said he was against the deal as passing it would have "made it much better for the opposing side".

The bill was blocked in the Senate for a second time in May.

Did Trump ban abortions?


CLAIM: "In more than 20 states, there is a Trump abortion ban, many with no exceptions, even for rape and incest... be sure if he were to win, he would sign a national abortion ban"

VERDICT: Bans were enacted by states after Mr Trump left office but, as president, he appointed three justices to the Supreme Court who voted to overturn Roe v Wade. Mr Trump has said he would not sign a national abortion ban.

Roe v. Wade protected the federal Constitutional right to abortion for nearly 50 years until it was overturned in June 2022.

As a result, 22 states currently ban abortion or restrict the procedure to earlier in pregnancy than was set by Roe v. Wade. In 14 of those states, abortion is banned in almost all circumstances with10 not even making an exception for rape or incest.

During his 2016 presidential campaign, he said that Roe v. Wade should be overturned so that the decision on legality of abortions could "go back to the individual states".

What do you want BBC Verify to investigate?


Article is LOCKED by author/seeder
 

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Texan1211
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Texan1211    3 months ago

Harris has been misleading or outright lying.

Surprise, surprise, surprise!

OIP.Nl3-YqRojpwz7w6m_0YsmgHaJf?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2  Jeremy Retired in NC    3 months ago

How many jobs has the Biden administration created?

CLAIM: "We have created 16 million new jobs."

VERDICT: That is roughly correct. 15.8 million jobs have been added under the Biden administration, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.

However, when the Biden government entered the White House in January 2021, the US was recovering from the Covid pandemic, which crippled the economy and during which more than 20 million jobs were lost.

People going back to work after the travesty that were the lockdown's is no where near close to "job creation".  16 million people WENT BACK TO WORK.  These jobs already existed.

Did Trump tank the immigration deal?

CLAIM: "We had a chance to pass the toughest bipartisan border security bill in decades but Donald Trump tanked the deal."

VERDICT: Mr Trump was publicly against the Biden administration's immigration bill, but voting on it was up to Congress.

Trump wasn't in office of any form.  He didn't tank a goddamn thing.  

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3  Just Jim NC TttH    3 months ago

Yes of those 15.8 million jobs, 9 million of those jobs were recovered from the COVID days.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4  JohnRussell    3 months ago

This is one of the weakest "fact checks" I have ever seen.

The media has to prop up trump now, before its too late.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @4    3 months ago
This is one of the weakest "fact checks" I have ever seen.

You should read more of them then.

The media has to prop up trump now, before its too late.

Oh, jeeze, another conspiracy theory regarding Trump, what a damn shock!

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JohnRussell @4    3 months ago
This is one of the weakest "fact checks" I have ever seen.

Then you'll have no problem refuting every item in the article.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.3  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @4    3 months ago
This is one of the weakest "fact checks" I have ever seen.

I'm simply flabbergasted that anyone that supports Trump, supports fact checking.  That is the ultimate hypocrisy.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Ozzwald @4.3    3 months ago
I'm simply flabbergasted that anyone that supports Trump, supports fact checking.

Who is doing that?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.4  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @4    3 months ago
his is one of the weakest "fact checks" I have ever seen.

Lol. Do you not read the ones where Trump's opinions get fact checked?

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
4.4.1  bugsy  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.4    3 months ago

I think that was the one that listed mostly ‘he hurt my feelings’ check

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5  JohnRussell    3 months ago
However following the pandemic, the US economy bounced back under Mr Trump.

Utterly absurd. Trump was not president "following the pandemic".

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
5.1  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @5    3 months ago

Trump was not president "following the pandemic".

Fact checking the fact checker? 

The article is rife with spin, excuses, and willful blindness to what actually happened..

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1    3 months ago

The mainstream media feels the need to get Trump back in the game.  The Washington Post had a similar fact check of the DNC this morning which its subscribers were incensed over. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
5.1.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.1    3 months ago
The Washington Post had a similar fact check of the DNC this morning which its subscribers were incensed over. 

The entitlement from the left is off the charts.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.1.3  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.1    3 months ago

He is in the game. The 2016 election was decided by about 70,000 votes and the 2020 election was decided by about 40,000 votes.

This one will also be close.

This week will end John and Friday equals midnight for Harris. (In the fable Cinderella must be back at home before the clock strikes midnight. If not, her fine dress will turn into rags and the coach and servants will become what they were before.)

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.4  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @5.1.2    3 months ago

This is an incredibly disingenuous "fact check" by the Washington Post


The first night of the 2024 Democratic National Convention featured many attacks on former president Donald Trump, some of which quoted him out of context. Here’s a roundup of a dozen claims that caught our attention, in the order in which they were made.

As is our practice, we do not award Pinocchios for a roundup of statements made during convention events.

 
“We tried to expand Social Security and Medicare. Donald Trump tried to cut them year after year after year.”

— Rep. Lauren Underwood (D-Ill.)

This is mostly false. Earlier on this first day of the convention, we awarded the Harris-Walz campaign Three Pinocchios for a version of this claim.

On Medicare, virtually all anticipated savings sought by Trump would have been wrung from health providers, not Medicare beneficiaries, as a way of holding down costs and improving the solvency of the old-age health program. Trump, in fact, borrowed many proposals from Barack Obama, who had failed to get them through Congress.

Marc Goldwein, senior vice president at the nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, which seeks to lower the budget deficit, closely studied the Trump proposals each year.

“The basic argument here is quite ridiculous,” he said of the Harris-Walz campaign tweet. Goldwein noted that the Inflation Reduction Act, in which Harris cast the tiebreaking vote for passage, also reduced health-care costs for Medicare, such as through inflation caps. “By the same logic, you could say Joe Biden cut Medicare.”



 

 
As for Social Security, Trump kept his promise not to touch retirement benefits, bucking longtime efforts by Republicans to raise the retirement age. But Trump did seek, without success, to reduce spending for Social Security Disability Insurance as well as Supplemental Security Income, which is administered by the Social Security Administration.

Goldwein said that the reductions generally were intended to make the programs more efficient, such as eliminating double payments of both unemployment insurance and disability (also sought by Obama). He also said the proposals were relatively small.

Trump has insisted he will not cut benefits for Medicare or Social Security if he is elected president again.

“He [Trump] told us to inject bleach into our bodies.”

— Rep. Robert Garcia (D-Calif.)

This is exaggerated. Trump did not say people should inject bleach into their bodies. Instead, at a pandemic briefing in 2020, he spoke confusingly of an “injection inside” of lungs with a disinfectant. He made the remarks after an aide presented a study showing how bleach could kill the virus when it remained on surfaces. Trump later claimed he was speaking “sarcastically,” though he seemed serious at the time.

 
Readers can judge for themselves. Here are his full remarks on April 23 that year: “I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me.”

“When Donald Trump was president, corporate America ran wild. Donald Trump did not bring back the auto industry. When Donald Trump was president, auto plants closed. Trump did nothing.”

— Shawn Fain, United Auto Workers president

This is exaggerated. Trump often falsely bragged that before he became president, no new auto plants had been built for decades, but there were some new plants built during his presidency. Until the pandemic, Trump’s overall record on auto industry jobs was pretty good. From February 2017 to February 2020, just before the pandemic crashed the U.S. economy, Bureau of Labor Statistics data shows a gain of 34,100 auto manufacturing jobs and 36,400 auto retail jobs — for a total of more than 70,000 jobs in three years.

 
“She [Kamala Harris] won’t be sending love letters to dictators.”

— Former secretary of state and Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton

This is in the eye of the beholder.

In 2018, Trump said of North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un: “We fell in love, okay? No, really, he wrote me beautiful letters, and they’re great letters. We fell in love.”

Washington Post associate editor Bob Woodward, in his 2020 book “Rage,” revealed that Trump had permitted him to read and transcribe 27 letters and wrote that “Trump has personally said they are ‘love letters.’” Woodward quoted parts of the letters, and the full file of letters was made available to North Korea expert Robert Carlin, who analyzed them for Foreign Policy magazine.

In one letter, written in 2019, Trump “incredibly” closes with “your friend,” Carlin writes. But the letters are mostly an exchange of negotiating positions on North Korea’s nuclear arsenal.

 
“In their totality, they are a highly illuminating reflection of the fundamental misperceptions between the two sides,” Carlin said. “As a close read makes clear, it was the letters, perhaps more than any other aspect of diplomacy and statecraft, that set the stage for the train wreck that was the 2019 Trump-Kim summit in Hanoi and the subsequent breakdown of communication.”

“It has to be some form of punishment for the woman. Yeah, there has to be some form.”

— Trump, quoted in a DNC video

Trump quickly walked back this statement. This March 3, 2016, quote from Trump pops up in the video as a woman, Amanda Zurawski, describes how she was not able to seek an abortion in Texas after her water broke early and her pregnancy was no longer viable. “I was punished for three days, having to wait for either my baby to die or me to die, or both. I was stuck in this horrific hell of both, wanting to hear her heartbeat and also hoping I wouldn’t,” Zurawski said.

 
The juxtaposition might leave the impression that Trump still believes this. But he walked back the statement the same day he made it in a town hall.

“If Congress were to pass legislation making abortion illegal and the federal courts upheld this legislation, or any state were permitted to ban abortion under state and federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman,” Trump said in a statement. “The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb.”

“JD Vance says women should stay in violent marriages, and that pregnancies resulting from rape are simply inconvenient.”

— Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear

Vance has said his comments have been twisted by Democrats. Here they are in context so readers can make their own judgment.

Violent marriages. In a 2021 event Vance participated in at Pacifica Christian High School in California, concerning his book “Hillbilly Elegy,” the moderator asked Vance: “What is causing one generation to give up on fatherhood when the other one was so doggedly determined to stick it out even in tough times?”

 
Vance praised his grandparents, who raised him, for staying together, even though his grandmother once poured lighter fluid on his grandfather and struck a match after he came home drunk, he wrote in his book.

Vance said: “This is one of the great tricks that I think the sexual revolution pulled on the American populace, which is the idea that like, ‘Well, OK, these marriages were fundamentally, you know, they were maybe even violent, but certainly they were unhappy. And so getting rid of them and making it easier for people to shift spouses like they change their underwear, that’s going to make people happier in the long term.’ And maybe it worked out for the moms and dads, though I’m skeptical. But it really didn’t work out for the kids of those marriages.”

Inconvenience. In a 2021 interview Vance was asked whether laws should allow women to get abortions if they were victims of rape or incest.

 
“My view on this has been very clear and I think the question betrays a certain presumption that is wrong,” Vance replied. “It’s not whether a woman should be forced to bring a child to term, it’s whether a child should be allowed to live, even though the circumstances of that child’s birth are somehow inconvenient or a problem to the society. The question really, to me, is about the baby.”

“I ran for president in 2020 because of what I saw in Charlottesville in August of 2017 … When the president was asked what he thought had happened, Donald Trump said, and I quote, ‘There are very fine people on both sides.’ My God, that’s what he said. That is what he said and what he meant.”

— President Joe Biden

Trump’s meaning is in dispute. The march on Charlottesville by white supremacists in August 2017 — and President Trump’s response to it — was a central event of his presidency. Over the course of several days, Trump made a number of contradictory remarks, permitting both his supporters and foes to create their own version of what happened.

 
Biden has frequently claimed that Trump said the white supremacists were “very fine people.” But the reality is more complicated. Trump was initially criticized for not speaking more forcefully against the white nationalists on the day of the clashes, Aug. 12. Then, in an Aug. 14 statement, Trump actually condemned right-wing hate groups — “those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.”

But Trump muddied the waters on Aug. 15, a day later, by also saying: “You had people — and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists — because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists.” It was in this news conference that he said: “You had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides.”

 
Trump added: “There were people in that rally — and I looked the night before — if you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones.”

The problem for Trump is that there was no evidence of anyone other than neo-Nazis and white supremacists in the Friday night rally on Aug. 11. He asserted there were people who were not alt-right who were “very quietly” protesting the removal of Lee’s statue.

It’s possible Trump became confused and was really referring to the Saturday rallies. But that’s also wrong. A Fact Checker examination of videos and testimony about the Saturday rallies found that there were white supremacists, there were counterprotesters — and there were heavily armed anti-government militias who showed up on Saturday.

The evidence shows there were no quiet protesters against removing the statue that weekend.

 
“[We’re] removing every lead pipe from schools and homes so every child can drink clean water.”

— Biden

This is exaggerated. Biden secured $15 billion through the bipartisan infrastructure law for lead pipe replacement. But the Environmental Protection Agency has projected that replacing the nearly 10 million lead pipes that supply U.S. homes with drinking water could cost at least $45 billion.

“More children in America are killed by a gunshot than any other cause in the United States — more die from a bullet than cancer, accidents or anything else in the United States of America.”

— Biden

This is not quite right. Biden is using a statistic on gun deaths of “children and teens,” meaning it includes deaths of 18- and 19-year-olds, who are legally considered adults in most states. When you focus only on children — 17 and younger — motor vehicle deaths (broadly defined) still rank No. 1, as they have for six decades, though the gap is rapidly closing. Deaths of children from gun violence have increased about 50 percent from 2019 to 2021, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data shows.

 
“We know from his own chief of staff, four-star Gen. John Kelly, that Trump while in Europe would not go to the gravesites in France of the brave service members who gave their lives in this country, he called them ‘suckers and losers.’”

— Biden

Kelly did not exactly say this. Trump, on repeated occasions, had vehemently denied this story. In 2023, however, John F. Kelly, Trump’s White House chief of staff in 2018 — who had previously not commented on the controversy — issued a statement to CNN that Trump “rants that our most precious heroes who gave their lives in America’s defense are ‘losers’ and wouldn’t visit their graves in France.”

Note that Kelly’s statement is carefully worded and does not directly say Trump refused to visit the graves because he thought they were losers, as Biden claimed. He says Trump thinks war dead are losers and he did not want to go to the cemetery. Both could be true — but not connected.

 
“We have a thousand billionaires in America. You know what is their average tax rate they pay? 8.2 percent.”

— Biden

Biden is comparing apples and oranges. We’ve given the president two Pinocchios for this claim.

The “lower tax rate” refers to a 2021 White House study concluding that the 400 wealthiest taxpayers paid an effective tax rate of 8 percent. But that estimate included unrealized gains in the income calculation. That’s not how the tax laws work. People are taxed on capital gains when they sell their stocks or other assets. So this is only a figure for a hypothetical tax system.

According to IRS data on the top 0.001 percent — 1,475 taxpayers with at least $77 million in adjusted gross income in 2020 — the average tax rate was 23.7 percent. The top 1 percent of taxpayers (income of at least $548,000) paid nearly 26 percent.

 
“Donald Trump says he will refuse to accept the election result if he loses again … He’s probably seeing a bloodbath if he loses — in his words.”

— Biden

Trump is being quoted out of context. Biden suggests Trump said there would be a “bloodbath” if he lost the election. But in a March 16 rally, Trump used the word when talking about the impact of Chinese electric vehicles on the U.S. auto industry.

“China now is building a couple of massive plants where they’re going to build the cars in Mexico and think, they think, that they’re going to sell those cars into the United States with no tax at the border,” Trump said. “We’re going to put a 100 percent tariff on every single car that comes across the line, and you’re not going to be able to sell those cars. If I get elected. Now, if I don’t get elected, it’s going to be a bloodbath, for the whole — that’s going to be the least of it. It’s going to be a bloodbath for the country. That’ll be the least of it. But they’re not going to sell those cars.”

 
The Trump campaign noted that one of the definitions of “bloodbath,” in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, is “a major economic disaster.” It also means “a notably fierce, violent, or destructive contest or struggle.”

Trump, of course, frequently quotes his opponents out of context and unfairly twists their words.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.5  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.4    3 months ago

They examined 11 statements.  One of them they determined to be "mostly false".  The rest were categorized as "exaggerated", "open to interpretation", "the meaning is in dispute", etc. 

----------------

wapo reader comment

(Edited)
Wow ... It's hard for me to believe that a news organization once held to high standards and practices would allow an article this compromised in ethics to be printed under its mast head ... this is the sadest crap I have ever read in the WAPO ... please put this article in the opinion section ... or "Walk it back" LOL you absolutly must be joking us !
 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
5.1.6  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1    3 months ago

And yet you don't disprove any of it.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
5.1.7  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.5    3 months ago

Rampant whataboutism, eh John?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.8  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @5.1.6    3 months ago

Amazing. Once THE most trusted source for information tells the fucking truth and heads explode. Can't make this shit up folks.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.9  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.1    3 months ago

Oh, gosh, some liberals took offense at one of their heroes being fact checked. Too bad, they'll get over it.......or not, who cares.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.10  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.5    3 months ago

Perhaps you should lobby MBFC to label the WashPo a hateful organization!

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
5.1.11  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.5    3 months ago

They examined 11 statements.  One of them they determined to be "mostly false".  The rest were categorized as "exaggerated", "open to interpretation", "the meaning is in dispute", etc. 

Have you  never read a trump fact check? 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
5.1.12  Ozzwald  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @5.1.6    3 months ago
And yet you don't disprove any of it.

Really? 

I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100.  Since you claim to know what I am thinking, what is that number?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.13  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1.12    3 months ago

He claimed you didn't disprove any of it, not sure how you see otherwise.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
5.1.14  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Ozzwald @5.1.12    3 months ago

WTF are you talking about?  

 
 

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