Fascinating!!! Thanks for sharing this!

''proves that women have been much more in this world that just another pretty face''...I do enjoy a pretty face though.

On a serious note, the Indigenous people seem to have the equality thing down pat.

Excellent find Mashkawide'e.

After reading your article, I read a couple of the others listed on the right side of the page and was really struck with how far behind those arch's are. I mean, they're listing 12,000 years as being the beginning of human "civilization" (read the one on the South Americans "conquering" a desert).

Jeezzzzz - no wonder they're so far behind in KNOWING, as we indigenous peoples do, that women ruled the roost of most tribes and we've known that for thousands of years.

Thanks Loretta - 'nuther great article.

Where did you find accurate information that they cremated men?

Unfortunately, anthropologists and archaeologists view their finds through the lens of their own prejudices and beliefs. When the expectation is that men always ruled(and even that "god" said men should rule), they'll rarely "find" a civilization where women ruled and when they do make a find where they cannot deny that reality, they'll still be incredulous about it. Same for women warriors, etc.

I wondered why they seem to use the terms "queen" and "priestess" interchangeably. Would they use "king" and "priest" the same way? Or do they know something about this civilization that is not included in the article?

I too had dreams I was told to forget because I was female. Think of how much we've lost because half of the population was told they were inferior and could not follow the inspired paths so natural to them.

It's never too late to learn though, niijii. Follow your passions. I'd love to go on a dig as a volunteer. Hard work but think of the fun of being there.

The tombs they're uncovering in South America quite often hold the remains of powerful women. I remember another in the Mayan empire that was similar. I'm wondering when they're going to put together a body of work to show how common women as rulers were.

LOL, good one Raven Wing.

Apparently they did:

Excavations in plazas near Moche huacas have found groups of people sacrificed together and the skeletons of young men deliberately excarnated , perhaps for temple displays

en.wikipedia

Thank you for pointing that out Robert. You are correct, they didn't discriminate re age.

Isn't that wonderful??

Is there anything else you'd like to point out. I'm sure that if you try real hard you can make another useless post.

It must be difficult for you to accept that women were leaders in our societies.

Is this different than the human sacrifices made in patriarchal cultures?

The Bible records sacrifices of children.

evilbible

I was told the same thing. But, it didn't stop me.

And yes, I was very fortunate to have had the opportunities to do what I love to do! Not everyone is that lucky. Believe me, it wasn't brains on my part, just tenacity.

Please don't just come here to spam us with nonsense. Do you have a true interest in this subject? If so, then let's discuss it.

Raven Wing I admire your honesty in your text reply to this article. Please note that all your knowledge you acquired and acquiring in your life about your dream are NOT waisted and all is "in store" in your mind and with internet of today's communications it's like University reseaches and can be in sharingwith the only thing to keep in mind is to make sure that your researches are based on solid ground of true from the texts of theAuthors you stydy or articles you read. All your life you wanted to be an Archaeologist and-or an Antropologist but today you can share the beauties of the secrets you'll discoverfrom your researches because many people just like you have a great passion for such Human Sciences...I am one of them and I thank you again for your such honest answer about what is discussed here with our distinguished colleagues of the NewsTalkers. Merci/ Thank you . I am looking forward to read about your researches....Wonderful Lucien Alexandre Marion from Canada.

Human Sciences/ Artist/ samples Freeon itune/amazon CD(title) : La fleur d'Orlans (for your History and Culture reseaches and relaxation and also forpleasure of Poetry and Music.

There is an interesting book out called "1491", written by a fella named Mann.

In his historical renderings of the Eastern coast of South America, he notes the history of several tribes/kingdoms who had women leaders and even gave stories of how the women's leadership decimated a number of other male dominated tribes/kingdoms.

Have you ever read the diary of Adam and Eve, by Mark Twain? I think you would LOVE it! Here is a link to a full text .pdf file version:

PDF]

The Diaries of Adam and Eve - KelleyTown

''At first I would probably think it sucked''...Yes, you probably would Robert, I can understand where having your ass kicked by females would be a problem for you.

Now that we have that little back and forth, do you have anything constructive to add to the article?

Sorry about the comments Mashkawide'e, but Robert seems to be off and running today. In circles I might add.

I too just ignored them, but it still hurt. Being told your dreams and passions are not important is awful. Being told you only have one role in life, based on what others order you to be, is even worse.

Lucien, what a beautiful and supportive post. Thank you for sharing those thoughts with us.

It would make me proud to be sacrificed in a matriarchal society. Maybe not at first. At first I would probably think it sucked.

It would suck to be sacrificed no matter what society did it, IMO, but then I wasn't raised in such a society. Maybe in some of them it would have been considered a high honor, but that may not be the case in this society. In the Wikipedia article:

Both iconography and the finds of human skeletons in ritual contexts seem to indicate that human sacrifice played a significant part in Moche religious practices. These rites appear to have involved the elite as key actors in a spectacle of costumed participants, monumental settings and possibly the ritual consumption of blood. While some scholars, such as Christopher B. Donnan and Izumi Shimada , argue that the sacrificial victims were the losers of ritual battles among local elites, others, such as John Verano and Richard Sutter , suggest that the sacrificial victims were warriors captured in territorial battles between the Moche and other nearby societies.

The Moche may have also held and tortured the victims for several weeks before sacrificing them, with the intent of deliberately drawing blood. Verano believes that some parts of the victim may have been eaten as well in ritual cannibalism

Uh, EEEEEEW!

Sorry to be so squeamish!

Kavika,

One thing I learned via a violent marriage is that abusers can entice me to become someone I do not want to be and react in ways I do not like. As a reminder, I kept this on my wall for many years after he was driven from my life. It has served me well.

This above all: to thine own self be true
Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 78

Here's the good news: no one on this board or any other forum can inflict the damage he did. They are essentially powerless unless I grant them power -- something I am loath to do.

ROTFLOL. You said it well. My reaction exactly.

And, in some of the tribes/religions, the "young adults" were chosen at birth and raised with the full knowledge that they were to be sacrificed when they reached 10 years of age.

Well, certainly they were highly valued people anyway.

Robert,

You seem to have a grudge against NAs. It has no place here.

Obviously, no one would "rather not have that mentioned," or I would not have seeded an article that contained the information. I also would not have provided other links that also discuss human sacrifices.

As to your statement that "I cannot help but make sure it is noticed," well, that is your ax to grind but why blame others for your decisions? That strikes me as an immature argument.

I've never seen anyone -- white or native -- deny there were wars, sacrifices or other cruelties before the arrival of the white man, so I don' t know why you want to pretend that is the stance of anyone. However, whenever I see a white man make that argument it is usually in denial of the atrocities white men inflicted on natives -- a sort of "well, you did it too" school yard argument that is also very juvenile.

Since the culture in this article existed long before the white invasion of the Americas, that stance has no relevance here. Please stick to discussing this culture in that era and avoid trying to inflict other issues into this topic.

Looks like an interesting book.Thanks for mentioning it. I've put it on my wish list.

For those who are interested, here's the link:

1491

It's only $12 paperback or kindle.

Here's an interesting page at Nat Geo. We can zoom in on any aspect of the mural.

Moche Mural in Peru Revealed in Stunning Detail

Interactive gigapixel technology offers a new way to see ancient art

In the bone-dry coastal desert of northern Peru, the ancient Moche sculpted and painted intricate murals on the adobe walls of the site now known as Huaca de la Luna (Temple of the Moon). Created between A.D. 100 and 800, the images hold intriguing clues to a mysterious people who left no written texts to help explain their beliefs and customs.

Covering 200 square feet (19 square meters) in the corner of one of the temple's plazas, the polychrome relief vividly portrays scenes from the spiritual life of the Moche. Human sacrifice, for instance, was a common ritual in this culture. It's shown here in mid-action, with the perpetrator thrusting a weapon at the defenseless victim, who is splayed on his back. In other spots, warriors appear in various poses that must have held great meaning centuries agograsping an iguana by its tail, brandishing a weapon in each hand, and holding up a decapitated head. (See more pictures of a Moche sacrifice chamber .)

The mural includes many animalsfish and crayfish (presumably from the nearby Moche River), as well as snakes, scorpions, monkeys, foxes, buzzards, an unidentified feline, and dogs that appear to be barking. It also may show scenes from daily lifepeople capturing birds with nets, fishing from a kind of reed boat still used locally today, even smelting gold.

Robert, I've seen you post on almost every article about Indigenous people and you bleat the same destructive stuff on every one of them. When you have something constructive to say about this topic, then come back and say it. But keep in mind: this seed is not about your prejudices. It's about an ancient culture.

As to your comments on the sacrifices, that "rot" could also be applied to the Biblical culture you tried to sweep under the rug, could it not?

I seea very "human" culture.

Humans are humans, and always will be until we evolve into something else. We are a rather clever species, but also very violent. They sacrificed infants, children, young men, animals, etc. That was acceptable as a part of their culture. We find it abhorrent, again, as a part of our culture.

Few people in America go out and sacrifice a pair chickens to honor whatever God they worship. There are exceptions, but not many... Needless to say, it's not something I would do every day.

All I know is, if my family wants chicken for dinner, I couldn't bear to go out and kill Miss Cluck. I would have to be VERY hungry. Nope, for me, if it can't be bought, already cut up and ready to roast, fry, fricassee, boil, bake, or barbeque, I'm reallynot that interested.

Maybe for them, it meant something special that we don't know or understand.

I don't see anyone saying that mankind of a certain culture aren't violent. LIFE is violent, in and of itself. Watch some TV show on the Serengeti or something. All of life is conjugation of the verb "to eat".

I'm thinking that there might be a dig or two somewhere nearby! Maybe you could contact a university near your home to ask-- even if only for a couple of days, you would probably REALLY enjoy it!

Very true. Humans are, unfortunately, violent toward each other, other species and the earth herself. We are a destructive lot. It always make me shake my head when people try to declare humans as superior to other species who do not inflict the carnage that we do.

Human sacrifice, in every culture I've read about, has always been done to appease the gods and goddesses (although far more often, the gods are seen as requiring it). This was done in eras when they did not have the knowledge base we do and could only attribute natural disasters and the like to the anger of a deity. Of course, there's plenty in our nation today who still believe in that. Pat Robertson and a few others come to mind. After every natural disaster, they scream how "god" killed all those people and inflicted all that damage because of gays or feminists or someone else they love to hate.

For some people, not much has changed apparently.

I'm in awe. I see those baskets in all the stores. I'm proud to know my friend was the first to manufacture and sell them. Wow. Color me amazed and delighted.

I understand about the osteoarthritis in back and hips. I have it in my back due to an old injury. Might be getting it in my ankle, again because of an old injury. Am currently taking a strong anti-inflammatory, and it is helping.

However, one of my dear friends, now deceased, was the best orthopedic surgeon in the LA area. He told me I had the strongest pain tolerance he'd ever seen. Made me proud while he just shook his head. We were both into horses and horse shows and he couldn't believe I just kept on working them.

If I can do that, I can also help on a dig. Not everyone on a dig has to do hard labor. When I had a horse ranch in Malibu, we inadvertently became involved in a Chumash dig. A friend lived on Point Dume. She called and said they'd unearthed graves on the point overlooking the sea where they were going to put in a trailer park. UCLA wasn't interested, so we gathered a bunch of neighbors and did what we could to preserve the contents of the graves. They gave us one day before the bulldozers started up again.

As the end of the dig came, UCLA showed up and demanded all we'd collected. We refused and gave them to the Chumash tribe. How arrogant to think they had the authority to confiscate what never belonged to them and what they were not interested in until after the work was done. They would have just put it in their basement anyway.

So, from that one experience, I know they need people who can organize, catalog, ship and protect what others find. So no, you would not be a hindrance to them. Never think your amazing skills are not valuable.

Robert, do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion? Any new knowledge or resources you can link to? I'd like to hear if if you do.

I've linked other articles here in comments. No need to just read one and think we're experts. Knowledge is power, is it not?

As to your repeated use of "princess," that's incorrect. They were termed "queen" and "priestess" in the article. Is there is a reason why you want to demote them?

This article focused on the power of women in that culture. Is your use of the demoting term meant to degrade or devalue that power or the women themselves?

You've expressed so well what I've always felt. The earth does indeed tell her tales to those with the ears to hear and the eyes to see. Nothing replaces being right there with her and allowing her to include us in her Wisdom.

I'm sorry to hear you were not allowed to help. That's shortsighted of those who were not paying attention enough to see the marvelous person right there in front of them.

I'd love to hear more about what you learned in the Shenandoah Valley. That's an area I've never visited, yet feel a strange yearning and love for. I don't know why. I suspect if I ever make it back there, it will feel like going home.

So your use of "princess" is deliberate and meant to be derogatory, degrading and demeaning. Again, using the destructive tone rather than the constructive. Do you realize that snide and demeaning references to the rulers of this culture makes it sound as if you are ignorant about this culture and any argument you try to advance sound irrational and impotent?

These demeaning terms is exactly why I asked you for links to resources. Since these women are confirmed in the article as queens and priestesses, you are either deliberately trying to demean and derail with a ridiculous stance or you are trying to claim you have information about them the archaeologists on the spot do not have. Since you have failed to provide any links to resources and, in fact, complained about being asked to provide them, I'm going to assume you're just trying to troll and derail by insulting them.

As to the sacrifices, twice I've given you the opportunity to discuss this culture in context with the Biblical culture whose human sacrifices were similar. Here's your reply about the Biblical sacrifices:

Not my problem. I wasn't there.

And yet you want topillorythis culture for doing the exact same thing. Are you then claiming you were there with the Michoca tribe, therefore it is your problem? Or are you just dismissive of the human sacrifices of the biblical indigenous tribes because they fit in with your prejudices and beliefs?

I think it's been pretty well illustrated Robert that all indigenous peoples - white, red, black, yellow and brown - have done "bad things to others" - and, unfortunately, many of those same colors continue to do "bad things to others". That is mankind's quest to demonstrate their dominance over others, regardless of the color. Religion has played a large part. So has the "I like that, so I'm going to take it" attitude, of which, again, all the colors participated in.

Loretta's intent, in my opinion, of showing this link and thread was to educate folks that women, indeed, did govern and rule in the past. And, in fact, in some countries of today, they still do - does Merkel ring a bell?

Stick with the thread about the past of the rulers and quit trying to be the "devil's advocate" and start throwing in how the women were such killers, i.e. conducted sacrificial ceremonies.

Thanks.

''If you somehow remain unaware of the proposition held by Native Americans that they were peaceful and only imitated Europeans in their violence, I can't help that either.

I call bullshit on that Robert. If fact it's a lie. If you post a lie,thanthat makes you a liar.Fairly simple proposition, and you know we're good at propositions.

The statement you quoted can only be one of three things: extreme ignorance, extreme prejudice or deliberate misrepresentation of fact.I ignored it because it is so blatantly false no one could ever believe it.

When I was a child, an old couple lived near us with a dog that seemed equally old. When we walked by, he made a lot of noise, but we just laughed because we all knew he had no teeth. I felt sorry for him because he seemed baffled why no one respected his bark.

Some people put themselves in that category. Their statements are so nonsensical it's hard to maintain a straight face.

Today is Women's Equality Day. This article was a perfect topic to post on this day. It's a shame some people are still alarmed by the idea women are equal in every way and have proven to be powerful rulers, both past and present.

The same well wishes to you, dearest Sister and all our other sisters.

For those who do not know: today celebrates the passing of the 19th amendment, guaranteeing women the right to vote. The suffragettes endured great hardship, violence and prison in order for us to be able to participate in deciding our nation's future.

The suffragettes were inspired by Indian women, especially the Iroquois. Indian women had more rights than white women and were the leaders in their communities. When white men punished white women for daring to want their voices heard, Indian men and women supported the white women. Here's a short article that briefly touches on many aspects of this fight for equality and the role Indians played:

laprensa-sandiego

American Indian women were quick to notice that women's rights were curtailed under Christianity and civilization. Alice Fletcher, an ethnographer, told delegates to the 1888 International Council of Women of an Indian who told her, "As an Indian woman I was free. I owned my own home, my person, the work of my hands, and my children would never forget me. I was better as an Indian woman than under white law."

American Indian egalitarian societies not only inspired democracy but also inspired Marx, John Locke, and Rousseau, as well as Stanton and Anthony.

Yet my ancestors were villainized as "savages." Europeans noted with horror our habits of bathing frequently, derision of authoritarian structures, and worst of all, their "petticoat governments." Yet, these qualities (except the last) have come to be the mark of Americanism and modernism. To become an American is therefore a large part to become "Indianized."

This may be of interest as well..

gibbsmagazine

Kavika,

That is definitely of interest. I did not know a lot of that information, especially about Florida. Isn't it a shame these facts never make it into the history books used to teach our children? How much richer their understanding would be if they were taught the truth.

Give me your personal thoughts on the article of this thread Robert - just this article - just this thread.

Thanks.

So, the implication here is that, the "soldiers" in the movies with Brandon Frazer about Mummies came to pass and we didn't know it? Or, does that mean Bud Abbott and Lou Constello actually brought them to life prior to Brandon being born? Or, does it mean that the British at Cambridge are better at archeology than those at Oxford?

Your comment, referencing the Onion sources,has what to do with the thread or topic?

We need to have an intervention for Robert.

Here's a place to start

That can be looked at a couple of ways.

Equality - all ages were sacrificed - no distinction - old, young, middle-aged. All sexes - male, female. Same ethnicity - all Peruvian (or so we know as of now).

"Assumption of equality" - no rich folks, only poor folks - peons, farmers, slaves, indentured, low class workers were sacrificed. Only ugly people were sacrificed- based on your statement of "lovely skeleton", then it would stand to reason that only people with potentially lovely skeletons would be buried separately after having not been sacrificed.

Going back to my previous statement on page 5, at the top, pretty well shoots your "argumentive" discussion down because this article, again, as stated on page 5 -

"I think it's been pretty well illustrated Robert that all indigenous peoples - white, red, black, yellow and brown - have done "bad things to others" - and, unfortunately, many of those same colors continue to do "bad things to others". That is mankind's quest to demonstrate their dominance over others, regardless of the color. Religion has played a large part. So has the "I like that, so I'm going to take it" attitude, of which, again, all the colors participated in.

Loretta's intent, in my opinion, of showing this link and thread was to educate folks that women, indeed, did govern and rule in the past. And, in fact, in some countries of today, they still do - does Merkel ring a bell?"

Please - don't sidetrack something because you don't like the answers you're receiving.

Thanks.

I love the fact modern technology is bringing ancient works to the masses. It wasn't so very long ago that few would be able to see these or even know about them.

Fantastic find - neither have they found them in the Middle East, Europe, Africa, Ruska or other parts more distant. Nice catch.

I think that the hypersenstivity of NA's to a different perspective is standard, and the myth of peaceful loving people communing with mother earth is one of many that NA's, at least on Newstalkers, continue to perpetuate, and perpetuate as characteristic of Native Americans.

This should read: "I think that the hypersenstivity of white men to a different perspective is standard, and the myth of white men treating women and other races well is one of many that white men, at least on Newstalkers, continue to perpetuate, and perpetuate as characteristic of white men."

There. I fixed it for you.

Michael Kimmel onmaleentitlement, anger and invisibleprivilege

I'd love to see them do a book on their interpretations of that wall and the other artifacts they've found, especially if they included the opinions of South American Indigenous people.

"That sense of entitlement, Kimmel says, can be incredibly dangerous. For so many seemingly affable college guys, he said on Wednesday, theres an anger, an animosity toward women and gays and everyone else who is perceived to be encroaching on mens rightful territory. Men feel besieged and attacked by womens advancement, he said, and perceive gender as a zero-sum game: If women do better, men do worse. As a result, the requirements for demonstrating their manhood have become ever stricter, ever more sexualized, ever more sexist. This entitlement can look incredibly ugly and can be incredibly sexist, racist and homophobic Kimmel recounted his experience of appearing on a talk show segment about affirmative action promotion and hiring called A Black woman took my job. The reaction by some men to increasing social equality in America is in some cases simply vile."

If you do, indeed, feel/believe that way, you'll note that there are a number of NA's on NT that don't parrot the tree-hugging, loving, mother-earth heal all philosophy. True, some will never change their tune because of the way in which they were raised - same as other ethnicities. They were "taught" to believe all the soft, fuzzy realities of their world - as were other ethnicities.

And, then, there are those who "love" a good discussion that doesn't involve slamming of anyone/anything - but they like/enjoy turning the discussion over and over on their tongues to get a taste of - hmmm - that's different - of all ethnicities.

That's what freedom is about - tasting the nuances and enjoying the sensations.

Don't blame all NA's by a few - and I won't blame all other ethnicities by a few either.

there are those who "love" a good discussion that doesn't involve slamming of anyone/anything - but they like/enjoy turning the discussion over and over on their tongues to get a taste of - hmmm - that's different - of all ethnicities.

That's what freedom is about - tasting the nuances and enjoying the sensations.

It's a shame some people are so abusive they cannot allow anyone to enjoy a good discussion. That's why so many seek to discuss things in closed groups -- because of the abuse that happens in open forums. Abusers create the need for closed groups and then complain they can't get in to abuse more.

Those who dedicate their lives to being toxic and destructive should re-examine their motives and stop pretending their toxicity and destructiveness is caused by other people.

8 Toxic personalities to avoid

Toxic people waste the time and energy of others. In the process, they isolate themselves because people just want to be free from their nastiness. When toxic people begin to look to themselves to find why others reject them, they begin to heal.

Loretta - that is so true - BUT - the worst thing in all discussions and, for that matter, ways of life, is the denial phase. They will deny to their death's end that it's not them and it's not happening to them.

Sad - really, really sad.

I agree. Very sad indeed.

It is the desire for dominance that creates the toxic atmosphere. We can look all through history and see it played out between people and cultures all over the world.

It's time for the human species to evolve beyond being verbally, psychologically and physically violent. I get so tired of hearing how humans (especially men) are just being their natural selves when they act in such primitive ways. I say "especially men" because that's the accepted stereotype for men. Women are expected to rise above and react gentler and more spiritually per their stereotype. Both are false. As long as we're willing to accept the false stereotypes, we're never going to make progress beyond the excuse making.

Unfortunately, the expectation for white male dominance is built into our culture, and too many are not willing to look at that power dynamic and how it harms themselves right along with the others they abuse.

All interpretations are subjective, even when the artist and the interpreter are both alive and can talk to one another. Each of us brings our individual experience, knowledge, beliefs and frame of mind whenever we gaze at art or read a book, so the object in question is never the same to one as it is to another. Very often, it isn't the same even to the same person at different moments in life.

As you point out, that's part of what would make their interpretation interesting. How hard would they try to move out of their own frame of thought to try to reach the artists' frame of thought? How much would modern day prejudices and assumptions invade their interpretations?

Wouldn't time travel be great so we could go back to these interesting eras and locales to hear and see for ourselves? If Einstein was correct -- that all time exists at the same time -- in theory we could do exactly that, but how?

Great points. Here's a few different ideas:

When I read, I can "see" and "feel" what is written. When I was a child, I felt as if I was within the story setting or hiding among the letters.I have a harder time interpreting art than I do words. With art, I see very literally and miss the deeper,more metaphoric meanings unless someone points them out to me.

At a writer's meeting, I met a woman who saw letters and numbers in color. The color was provided from within. It did not matter what color they were on the printed page.

Another woman spoke up and said she "saw" music notes as she heard them -- also in color.

After meeting these two, I never quite thought of our senses in the same way.

But most of us are more ordinary in our senses. I envy those who can interpret art in the manner you see it. I would have to follow along beside you and pester you to explain it to me in order to get the gist of what you see so naturally.