Dealing with the Trolls under the Bridge
Trolls and other obnoxious behaviors are a fact of life on the internet, and offers a degree of vitriol thatmany people do not often encounter in our real lives. For this reason, some of the worst offenders may be seen as being truly blessed, as they still have all their own teeth. Their attacks appear to be from out of nowhere, and are astounding to those of us who see it as unwarranted attacks, not an adult discussion of ideas and/or issues. In short, Ive done a bit of non-scholarly research, as a geologist, not as a psychologist. Here is what Ive found:
Olivier Morin, a cultural anthropologist who has written about trolling, stated, Most people who troll are people who are just like you and me, but just a bit more intense. Others who have written about trolls break them down into categories: the hater, the moral crusader, the debunker, and the defender . Yet, in real life, many internet trolls are not this way. The anonymity of the Internet makes it almost impossible for them to resist spewing vitriol from the protective cave of their computer/phone keyboard.
The disinihibition effect has been named by psychologist as a phenomenon in which the frequency of self-interested, unethical behavior increases among anonymous people . Sherry Turkle, a MIT professor calls the interaction on web sites being alone together . The Internet causes emotional dislocation , so we forget about the together part. Other people call it the John Gabriels Greater Internet F-wad Theory. The combination of anonymity and an audience brings out the worst in people. Psychologically, we are distant from the person were talking to and less focused on our own identity, and, as a result, were more prone to aggressive behavior .
Yet another site states that trolls or other obnoxious behavior is really just a matter of bullies or bullying behavior. Trolls are at heart small and mean people who have a need to make themselves feel big and strong. This site suggests that it is far better to walk away from the troll/bully, rather than begging for mercy or even fighting with him. If you are not a good victim, he will look elsewhere for gratification. Ultimately, if direct action needs to be taken against any bully, it has to come from the proper authorities, such as the persons on the site who have the power to block or remove their inflammatory and offensive remarks.
Yet another site defines the term obnoxious as a catch-all term for trolls or trollish behavior that includes one or more of the characteristics below. Please note that these are behaviors, not the person themselves.
- Rudeness
- Crudeness/vulgarity
- Prejudice
- Intrusive/nosy
- Impulsive
- Insincerity/glibness
- Aggression
- Egotism
- Insensitivity
- Gossipy
- Ignorance
- Unreliability
- Offensiveness
- Loudness
- Disrespect
- Dishonesty
- Irresponsibility
- Self-neglect
This article further states that t he person is unaware of their wounds and attitudes, other people's needs and feelings, social courtesies, and the effect of their behavior on other people. They also may feel guilty, ashamed, frustrated, and defiant because they sense other people find them (their traits) "obnoxious" and they don't know how to fix that. From this point of view, obnoxious (wounded, unaware) people deserve compassion, not scorn or criticism. Would you revile or scorn a person with a club foot for not being a graceful dancer? Compassion does not mean you must endure their behaviors!
The BIG question is this: How do we deal with this? The article offers several tips, below:
- Use awareness to (a) notice (how) you feel the person's behavior is "obnoxious," and (b) how their behavior affects you - i.e. how you feel around them. Your emotions point to what you need to do, if anything.
- If appropriate, remind yourself of (a) these basic response-options , and (b) your rights as a dignified person whose needs and values are just as important as the other person's.
- If you accept the multi-factor definition of "obnoxious" above, meditate on which of those component behaviors bother you with this person, and follow the links to review possible responses to each behavior. Then act on them one or two at a time, keeping your Self in charge and a mutually-respectful attitude:
- A general theme (is) to tailor is an assertive " I-message " - e.g. "(Name), when you talk that way / act like that / ________, I feel _________, and I need you to ___________."
Intentionally avoid lose-lose responses like these:
- "You are so obnoxious!" (shaming and combative)
- "I can't believe how rude / insensitive / crude / ______ / you are!" (ditto)
- "(Name), you have the sensitivity of a tree stump!" (ditto)
- "Wake UP, will you?" (vague and 1-up)
- "You really turn me off, (Name)." (vague and provocative)
- "You're really messing up your kids, you know?" (vague, accusatory, and 1-up)
- "Where were you when they passed out common courtesy?" (ditto)
Responses like these (a) suggest a false sense of self is speaking, (b) are lose-lose insults, (c) invite counter-insults, and (d) make win-win problem-solving hard or impossible.
So, it seems that the alternatives are 1) ignore them or 2) respond in a way that is assertive, not aggressive. Personally, I likely need to glue these responses and thoughts to my keyboard, so that I can react in a better way.
Thanks for coming by!
References:
Internet Trolls Can't Help Themselves
Troll Psychology: A discussion of internet 'bullying'
Break the Cycle: How to Respond Well to Obnoxious People
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This article is notdirected "TO" anyone, it is simply a self-help guide to dealing with general ugliness on the internet, as a whole. Perhaps it will help someone-- the articles listed above helped me!
Hope all of you have a great day today!
Great read, Dowser. I really do like the John Gabriels Greater Internet F-wad Theory. Trolls tend to be cowardly folks. They do not act out their trollish impulses in the grocery store or in McDonald's, do they? No, very seldom. Anonymity is their paradise.
When kids engage in this kind of behavior, we call them bullies. When adults do it they are abusers. They abuse safe victims around them - their wives, their kids, their siblings. By safe victims I mean that they pick their victims very carefully. They pick on people they believe will not crack them over the head. Did I mention "coward"?
They abuse because they enjoy it, it is like a hobby, it affirms to them what they have always feared: that they are, indeed, the unlovable piece of poo they always thought they were.
Bravo Dowser!
I gave you a like but I wish I could make this mandatory reading. Honestly, I think that anyone can have a trollish moment for the reasons given in this article, but I also think there are those who don't even realize that they are being trolls or get off on being trolls. So I always try a test. I try to do some corrective measure and see what happens. If they don't know that they are behaving that way, they usually make some amends... but if they are true trolls (and I honestly think that these are few and far between), than I take no mercy... but then again, because of what I do here, I have to be that way... and I find no enjoyment in it either, despite what some might think.
I would much rather take thelogicalapproach to dealing with trollish behavior. I might be printing a copy of this and putting it on my computer.... to calm down when I am feeling a bit trollish.
The abovesuggestions are harder to do when the troll has written an article which you are commenting on . There the troll is no longer under the bridge ...
Then why go to said article, Rich? Isn't better just to stay away? (BTW, I hope you were not referring to this article...)
Robert,
Thanks for the example!
Robert,
The fact that another article inspired Dowser write this article, and is now directing it to a specific audience is just an assumption. No where does this article say it's meta, meaning about this site. That would be an assumption, too. In fact, the author took time and listed it not by the default of News/Politicsbut as Health, Science & Technology , so I think your assumption is dead wrong.
So let me leave you with this. You didn't need to come into this article and make these remarks. In fact, your comment is actually a CoC violation, since it serves no purpose but to ruin the article. Let me give you some advice that my mother gave me, "When one has nothing nice to say, say nothing". If you think you don't need the service of self improvement, swim away.
I thought that was hysterical! Funnym I learned the wonderful word, F-wad many years ago, and in some instances, it just seems to fit!
Much love to you, dear Grump!
I think all of us are sometimes driven to comment on specific topics or comments that may be considered trollish, but most of us are decent folks.
I'm going to print a copy and put near my computer, for sure! I found it very helpful to have direction.
Very true, and I've got to stop paying attention to those who behave badly.
Again, it's up to me to behave. No matter what. I don't know everyone here-- or maybe I do and just managed to avoid them at the other place. OR they were there under a different name. At any rate, I have the responsibility to behave. Hard as it is sometimes, I still have to be responsible for myself.
Thanks!
I certainly would never think of you that way! You've never been anything but kind to me, and for that, I am truly grateful!
I think you're right-- it's not the insult, it is the intention to wound. I think some people enjoy playing mind games because that is how they get their jollies-- and I'm not very good at mind games. As in, not at ALL good at mind games.
Most people aren't trolls, they just have lost, for the moment, a degree of civility. We all do that sometimes.
Take care and I really appreciate your lovely comments!
1: I've often wondered what a troll was.
2: I've never seen a definition until now.
I am very glad this article was posted. At least now I have some reference.
It helped me, too! Thanks, Steve, for coming by to see me and for your lovely comment! Hope you have a great evening!
I found myself on an article on the vine awhile back . It was someone "attempting" to give equal voice to both sides of the issue . But when the issue is an absurdity and one side of the issue is illogical then someone should try to set it straight . I did try . I had a comment deleted but I persisted . The author of the seed lost her cool and actually started cursing at me . But in the end I had my comment restored .
The first person who curses seems to be the one who loses but only if the other persists without going down the low road .
I understand compltement! I hte string T9 type on m'y Kindle... completely
Finally, I think my kindle settings are fixed. Sorry for last night' s unintelligible message.
It is very difficult to maintain one's usual poise under the circumstances you described, I think. For me, most of the time, it's better if I just leave!
I foolishly used my real name on Nv when I first started out. It ended up being a mistake. I was easily identifiable and some nut job brought it to our mail box and our front portico. Severed cat's paws tied with a ribbon on my portico were the worst. I tracked the basty nastard down and took care of the matter. THEN, I became a grump.
I'm really not all that grumpy.
Yes, I think Lone hit the nail on the head, too.
Placate? No. For me, deal with, YES.
Bruce, we studied this years ago in a class called Collective Behavior. The class was sort of a study in "mob rule". While there many differences in mob rule versus internet dis- inhibition effect, I do see some similarities.
I think you're very smart to not use your real name, unless you wish to do so.
Grump, if I went on my porch and saw a severed cat's paw, Someone would have Hell to pay, for sure.
I've only been stalked once, by a former classmate-- and that was more than enough. Anyone inside my home without an invitation will be dealing with Mr. 357 Magnum.
A general rule of thumb that I try to follow is: "He who gets mad first, Loses," meaning that once you let anger take over, you have just given the argument to the other person. I have found this to be applicable to most interactions, whether they be on the internet or face to face.
Broliver I agree with you 100%. Anger blurs common sense. It trumps logic and it is our most base emotion. But I think that for some, the need to get the final word in, is what takes over, and once that does, anger is the next thing to follow.
I agree with that, Broliver! It's hard, sometimes, to keep from getting angry, when someone is insulting you... But, once you get angry, that's it. SIGH!
Broliver ,
I don't agree 100 % ... maybe only 96 % .
" ... some of the worst offenders may be seen as being truly blessed, as they still have all their own teeth."
Growing up on the street corners of Philly, it was frequently revealed that the toughest talkers were the weakest "performers."
"The anonymity of the Internet makes it almost impossible for them to resist spewing vitriol from the protective cave of their computer/phone keyboard."
Actually, there are a number of definitions for "Internet Troll."
"On the Internet, troll is a slang term for a person who posts messages intended to create controversy or provoke an angry response rather than to add content to a discussion."
That's not to say that this and other definitions are accepted without question; but I think those of us who have attempted to have point-counter-point discussions only to undermined by ...
Internet Trolls: The Psychology Behind the Rants
Who do you think you are, implying that at times I troll! LOL
Yeah, I do it sometimes. But in my defense, most of the time its a case of out-trolling a troll. I try to avoid it, but sometimes, rather than avoiding trolls, I must admit that it's fun to hit'em where they live.
Well written, Dowser.
Neale, we could always strive to affirm their sense of identity and give them the sympathy and emotional validation they so desperately desire, couldn't we?
Yes, I am being sarcastic and paraphrasing the article linked by A. Mac.
Good article. The link on the article to an article in Psychology Today was even better.
Thank you for the link! I will go check that out!
Could also just kick'em in the nuts!
My observation as well, A.Mac.
Nuts? They have nuts?
Well, at least a nut region!!
The groin-al area? A new word, maybe.
Gurls could be trolls, couldn't they? Gurls don't have nuts, unless they borrowed their boyfriend's nuts. You know, the ones in a jar of formaldehyde they keep in the nightstand?
It's strange this discussion about using ones name of not. I have always used my name whether here on NV. It neveroccurredto me not to. Maybe because I was stalked in real life myself, that I figured it couldn't be much worse than that. Besides, most people who are stalked are stalked by people they actually know in their day to day life.
And so the person that I am in my real life is the person people see here. I am pretty sure that those who have gotten to know me better would probably concur (One never really knows how they areperceivedby others, right?)
When NT first started the owners of the platform we were using at the time, said that people behaved better when they used their real name and their real face and we tried to encourage that to begin with. But there were those that were not comfortable with that, and so, we just let people choose how they wanted to present themselves.
I would say that you don't suffer fools well, but on the other hand, a lot of what you do is really morebravado Underneath it all, I think you have a very big heart, that you just don't want trampled on... Pony boy.
Ditto!
I thought the teeth joke was funny... But then, I would.
See what your article inspired me to do? Research!
You are NOT a troll, dear friend-- I have never known you to be truly cruel on purpose, and I love you as my friend.
LOL, dear grump!
Awww, shit! She done figgered me out!
A Mac,
It still boils down to who is reading the comment as to what the definition of "provoke an angry respone" means. a classic example is " Hard2Port,...Poof ",..If I said that to you it would not provoke an angry response, if fact you might just ask me how many bowls of stupid did I eat to think of that.
but to others or some people when I say " Hard2Port,...Poof " it will provoke an angry response. these are people who I think are a lot worse than "trolls" are. They will go out of their way just looking for comments that can be twisted to satify their need to complain that some one has hurt their feelings even though it's not true. There are some people who will stop at nothing to get people in to trouble.
I've spent maybe three years curising the Internet and I think I can say without a doubt that since Aug of last year I have seen the best and the worst that the Internet has to offer. and it is my opinion that on a level playing field like News (NT) Talker,...the worst doesn't stand a chance.
My name is my name- My wife yelled at me when she found out I was using it, but I like my name. At times, during a suspension or two on NV, I used a nom deguerre. Kilted Madman, and Donkey Hotay are two of them.
Now, my avatar is something different. After TTGA bitched me out for the green head on NV, I chose the Bill of Rights with "Void where prohibited by law" across the face. Because that is what I fight against. Right now, the world famous artist Baloo (of playboy fame, among other places) is working on my new avatar. If he succeeds in what I want, I shall post it here on NT first.
Neale is a sweet heart. A cranky sweetheart. We all love Neale.
I've always known that...
Yep!
That will be true in many instances, but that does not mean there are no responses which are patently offenses and which will evoke an angry response almost every time.
The context of a discussion and the sequence of dialogue usually tell the tale; if I were to start a discussion, the title of which was, "Peanut Butter is the Best Food on Earth," and the first comment was "Fuck you, only a dickhead would think peanut butter is such a big deal -- why don't you get your head out of your ass," I think based on context and sequence, almost anyone would find that provocative and offensive.
I once appealed (off-line) to an individual who almost invariably not only disagreed with my opinions, but did so with insults and personal attacks. My appeal was ... "I want you to know that even though we almost always disagree, it's never personal."
The response ... "Yes, it is personal."
Any way, I hope you are correct in commenting ...
There are many types of political discourse on the internet. AS most here know, I'm a man of rather intense opinions. They are polar opposites of many here. Yet with few exceptions, I can peacefully engage in discourse with anyone who wishes to do the same back. AS Mac can attest, he and I are miles apart politcally, and we get along fine EVEN when he's totally wrong on one of my articles.(of course, we'll never know how we get along when I'm wrong, cuz that never happens
) many of my finest friends on the vine are tough opponents on certain topics.
Here's how I see it. ANYONE can appear a troll in some circumstance. What makes them BE a troll is when that's their MO ALL the time. Bruce has pointed out that some consider him one at times, but we all like him. I think the difference is that when you can admit that you have been one at times, and are willing to extend the hand of friendship to others despite an occasional (or even frequent) disagreement, you aren't a troll. Conversely, some people have a sweet personality, and one topic they most definitely ARE trolls in, with no shame, remorse, or even care. For me, it's mostly just attitude. Ya either have trollitude or ya ain't got it. And if ya got it, and don't live it, you're still alright in MY book. Though I might thump on ya a time or two!
Neale's not far off the mark here; several years ago I thought I had been in error regarding one of my political opinions. It turns out, in fact, I was mistaken ... I was actually correct with regards to that opinion.
I was completely wrong in believing I had been wrong.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Start duckin' mf'ers.
All of us grow and change as we meet new experiences and face life's challenges, I think. To me, that's just part of the journey. Maybe we should all be able to recognize that.
Must not have been on onme of MY articles!
(And yes, I got the message- I was wrong once, cuz my wife says so.)
LOL!
Yeah, well, I seem to stay there, some days...
Ugh.
Sweet Susan! YES, you are so right!
Sometimes, I want to do just that. So I write a nasty reply, and don't post it. I feel much better... Usually, if I can take some kind of a break-- walk around the room, go downstairs and get a Coke, or do SOMETHING else, I can deal with it much better upon my return.
Sigh... I'm going to try the hints in the articles, and maybe that will help, too.
Hi Dowser,
I am just a simple person. I like simple things. I don't like speaking vaguely, because it's a waste of time.
Thanks for being my Friend.
Susz,
I just couldn't resist!
Darling!!!
Charlie, I'm sorry it took so long to get here! Thank YOU for being my friend!
I think the basics, and the simple things about the basics, is what makes life worth living.
For you:
Take care!!
SOOS!!!! I'm SO very glad to see you!
(((((((((((((Susan))))))))))))))))
I'm so sorry, I can't keep up with who was who and where!
Having been away from Blogging regularly, and writing Spiritual Reflections on NV, I almost had a troll or two on every religious post. When I first joined NV I was passive about trolling, and gradually I got worse and worse. Unkind would be understated.
Since, monitoring is not only difficult, but nigh on to impossible and ineffective....trolling will an active life despite what we think and do!
Good facts, Dowser, about the bloggers bane, the TROLL.
HI Soosalah,
Yes, I remember your name but I have been on and off so long that just a few of my electrons a connecting on my many NV friends. So, now I can put two and two together and remember Susan, along with two Susans in my church. Now I have a name and a face...let's hope I can remember.
BOY, can I relate!
Thanks, Charlie! Yes, you had a huge share of trolls!
Oh, wow, Dowsey! That was fantastic! It also described perfectly what a certain "other" site has become... It really should re-name itself "The Troll Convention."
There is much better material to be found here. MUCH better. This article is one example of many that are first-rate. Very refreshing.
{{{{{Dowsey}}}}}
Sweet bitey-- I just couldn't take it any more over there. Between all the changes that are difficult to deal with, the constant quirkiness of the site, the snarkiness of the posters, et. al. Well, it's just too much.
I notice that one specific person that caused our dear friend and brother to leave is still over there being arrogant to the masses. Skirting the CoH or the CoC seems to be a real talent...
I love you, bitey. Always have, and always will! And, just for you:
I found this one in my files, and thought you'd like it!
Oh, Dowsey... I love that photo! It is so adorable!!!!
As for the Site Which Shall Not be Named, well... I've noticed that most of the articles there now are troll-bait. That Grae's "last" article was removed as "Grenade Trolling" has made me realize that there is no "there" there. The once-fun "party" threads seem to have vanished, probably because most of the partyers have had enough. I still check on the place a couple of times a day, but never seem to find anything to change my mind about leaving.
You are a dear, dear friend and I cherish you. I'm so glad you are here!
I think I know those guys!
I'm glad we're both here! I have been feeling much more cheerful of late-- because I am seeing my friends!
I love you, dearest bitey!
Welcome to the Hamster Party!
They're guys after my own heart!
Those guys look suspiciously like some hammies we have in residence here... Id sure like to know where they got the cigarette and the booze...
[Perrie stands up from her chair and walks to the front of the room]
Hi. My name is Perrie, and I raise partying addicted rodents.
Hi Perrie.
Yeah, I want to know why they're not sharing, too!
Hmmmmm...
[Bitey stands and scampers to the podium]
Hi! I'm Bitey and all my rodents are addicted to parties!
Hi, Perrie! Hi, Bitey!
LOL!
Bitey and Perrie, do you renounce your ways and accept the groups 12 step program?
[Bitey and Perrie look at each other... and smile the smile of mutual understanding, and say in unison...]
Hell No!
Hic! 'Nother brewski, please...
Hiccccup! Sur! Here, Bitey... Brooklyn's finest! Larry told me about it!
We're sure a couple of raunchy rodents, aren't we?
Hic Hic!
Now that is a keeper and yes!
Squeak!
LOL, y'all!
I've been at work, where this wonderful site has been banned because it is social networking... I'll try to get scheduled for another webinar, which means they'll have to lift the ban on all the sites! (sneaky...) Anyway, I've missed all the fun!
Much love to you both!
Sneaky is good! I LOVE sneaky! I've been having computer issues, so sometimes I can get on, sometimes I can't. I think our ancient modem is on its way out.
{{{{{Dowsey}}}}}
I'm wondering the same about mine, too... Mine seems to Take Forever to get online.
ARGHH!
Oh well...
RV spent the entire morning with a Comcast Tech in chat, trying to figure out why we lose connectivity many times every day. They concluded it is probably our aged modem. So, we'll try a new one... dunno when, though. But it sure can be frustrating when you lose the connection in the middle of doing something. Reminds me of AOL dial-up many years ago...
I'm so sorry, dear bitey, that you're having problems! And I DO understand!
Sometimes, I feel like my computer has a gremlin inside of it.
That may help Dowser, but we know it isn't a browser problem here. We have four computers on a wireless home network, and when one goes out, all go out. I use two browsers, Chrome and Firefox; RV uses Firefox. I've found that both have their issues, and I toggle between them as needed. We're fairly certain that we need a new modem. We've had ours since 2006.
bitey, honey, MC Mike made that suggestion-- I'm not bright enough!
I use IE9. Chrome is a mess for my computer!
LOVE you!