The Catholic Church V.S. Birth Control

OK, so let's say that we remove the fact, that a large majority of Catholics want birth control, because we are going by church doctrine only.

And remember that I said as my opening statement, that if this was just a matter of the Catholic Church straight up, I would agree, 100%. That the government had no right to dictate doctrine.

And that I even said thathospitalsshould be omitted, since you can make a choice about which hospital you get your health care from. And I say this, despite the fact that some woman are put on birth control pills, for conditions like dysmenorrhea, uterinepolops and excessive bleeding, and premenstrualdysphoricdisorder.

But what about those universities? The people who attend them come from a wide variety of faiths. The students healthcare comes from there. Are you proposing that there should be a warning on theuniversitiesrecruitmentmailers, that non-Catholics should know that they must follow Catholic doctrine? How about their freedoms? There must be a middle ground for all this, on a practical level. If aCatholicUniversity wants non-Catholic students to attend (and they do) then there must beaccommodationsfor them.You can't have your cake and eat it, too!

It's their university, built on the tenants of their faith. They are not saying that you cannot use birth control. They are saying that they will not pay for it, because it is against their beliefs.

Then they need to warn the general public of this, which they don't. In fact, they go out of their way to say that they support other religious beliefs, and that is false advertising.

studentaffairs.nd

bc

campusministry.georgetown

OK. BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN TERMS OF RELIGION? ITS A CATHOLIC SCHOOL, RIGHT?
Fordham is a Catholic school, but it is very diverse. Fordham welcomes students of all faiths and traditions: all Christian denominations, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists No one tries to convert students to Christianity here. I dont mean just that it isnt school policyIve never seen anyone working for the University proselytize. There are no crucifixes or other religious symbols in the classrooms. There is no required chapel of any kind. In fact, Campus Ministries has offered to find space and help provide funding for Jewish students on campus to start a Jewish prayer group. We havent, but only because of lack of interest from the students, not from any lack of institutional support.

In my experience, Fordham manifests its religious identity most tellingly in the great respect that religion is accorded here. Other institutions Ive been associated with have tolerated religion. Fordham places enormous value on religion (not just Christian religionsall religious perspectives) and that makes an enormous difference. Students take theology classes as part of their core curriculum. This requirement can be fulfilled with classes in Torah or Buddhist texts, but the expectation is that students will engage seriously with the important texts and thinkers of at least one religious tradition in order to graduate.

fordham

I picked the Jewish faith, since there is too muchdiversityin the Protestant faiths to discuss birth control and I believe that Muslims are against it, too.

Now tell me, do you feel it's fair, after reading their own material, that they should be trying to have mass appeal, without full disclosure? I think not.

When those "non-profit" religions choose to run a business that does involve regulations - they run the risk of regulations that they may not agree with. They mixed the two. But are saying that no one else can regulate the mixing of those two.

My point exactly.

On the other hand, we all have choices, including not attending a university that is Catholic. Not going to a hospital that is Catholic.

I would agree with hospitals, but with the universities, as you can see from the links I provided, they are marketing themselves as being tolerant of all beliefs. That is obviously not true.

Bruce,

I am sure that you posted those facts before my posting.

I am not arguing this from a governmental POV. It's an ethical one. If you are going to say that you are tolerant of all beliefs, than be. Obviously, this is false advertising. If the church wants students from other faiths, than they have to be upfront about their policy or forgo it. It really is that simple.

This is true that you can go to any other school. But I think that until this issue arose, many people had the false assumption that their beliefs would be honored there, as per theirliterature,that they send potential students. This is wrong and they should be up front that there are certainboundariesthat they are not willing to cross. But they don't want to do that, as the potential student pool would go down. To me, this is having your cake and eating it, too.

I agree. That would be the fair thing to do. Than this becomes a non-issue.

I am not sure about the Catholic population where you live, but in the NE it is very large. In fact, most Catholics live in the NE, up to DC. with the exception of Chicago, LA and San Fran. The number of Catholic universities is very high and theyrecruitpossible students with vigor as do most colleges. This is one of the variables that should be known when picking a school.

My mom's Catholic education taught me to be weary of this, but I am sure that there many who are not as well versed in the faith.

Maybe it's just me, but if I were going to attend a Catholic school, I would expect it to be administered very closely with the Catholic faith.

If I were to attend a Jewish school, I don't think I would be expected to have part of my dick lopped off, but I also would not expect to see baked ham on the school menu.

Again, if you read the actual school's material that I provided, that is not the case. They imply an openess to respect all other faiths. Obviously, this isn't the case. That is false advertising.

As for Jewish schools, which one is at question. If it is an orthodox one, say like YashvahU, they would have the same issue as do the Catholics. But they do not actively recruit. The Conservative, & reform ones are much looser, and therefore, this is a non-issue. At the reform ones, you can get that ham sandwich, LOL. Brandies being an example.

Bruce.. I strongly suggest that you don't go toYashvahU. You might find yourself with a trim, LOL!

As far as the health insurance issue goes, there was a perfectly reasonable compromise presented to Obama where -everyone- would get what they wanted without infringing on the separation of Church and State but he refused to even discuss it. I'm sure he's regretting that now as it was a bad move in an election year. I am betting he starts entertaining that compromise darned soon for that exact reason.....votes. Of course then he'll claim all the credit and toot his own horn for being so "willing" to compromise, LOL.

it's about Catholic universities purporting to cater to all faiths and the need for them to reform that claim given what has occurred /is occurring regarding the requirement of paid-for availability (or lack thereof) birth control.

Ha, Feronia, I guess yes, that is what it boils down to. Humm... Maybe I should have given it a different headline?

there was a perfectly reasonable compromise presented to Obama where -everyone- would get what they wanted without infringing on the separation of Church and State but he refused to even discuss it.

I am unaware of this Mrs. R. Could you please fill me in?

I guess the potential loss of 80 million votes made him blink.

Well, let's cut that number in half, as the survey goes. But still 40 million voters are still sizable.

Thanks John! I have never heard about that.

And I agree, that I doubt the Church will back down.

But I also think that this will have an effect on how people will start to view where they send their kids for higher education. Until now, I think that this was just a footnote somewhere in the school lit.

John,

First welcome to NewsTalkers. If you have any questions on how to use this site, please feel free to ask.

Also, we discuss very differently here. You will get the hang of it.

I hardly call this an attack on the church. There was one aspect that was the point of thisarticleand that was the university system. I take the blame for not giving it a better title.

And I think that Mrs. R remembers that I have spoken veryvigorouslyagainst anti catholic views somewhere else with dkaz. That is how we first met. I am not anti-church. I am for truth in policy. The Catholic universities are not presenting all the facts, and they owe that to thepotentialstudents. I would expect that from any university that has a religious affiliation.

But the Church has the right to set policy as it sees fit. That is how I opened this article. That I supportseparationof church and state.

I posted the links it in this article. My girls are going off to college next year, and this is one of the things that I looked into, because of my mom's Catholic education. I noticed that they made it sound far more tolerant of all beliefs and that they would beaccommodated. This is clearly not the case.

Truth in advertising. And there is a good reason for this John. The best universities are fighting for the best kids for the sum of about $60,000 a year. I don't think that it's an accident, that this little detail is left out. Boston College was one that my daughters was interested in. I have to say, that this would have been weighted into ourdecisions, if they had not early decisioned else where.

Randy,

Matt would have never let that happen. He went to Wisconsin! They would have been triple legs there... but Hokins called, and you would have to be nuts to give that up.

John,

I am assuming that is because you are Catholic and are versed on Canon Law. But since they are trying to appeal to everyone fromBuddhiststo Jews, I really doubt they would know this fact. And if you read those without a knowing eye, it seems that all of other faiths needs would be met. This, as we know, isn't the truth. So, here it is. They have a choice. To be upfront about what their healthcare on campus will cover, clearly spelled out, or to provide for those who are not of the faith. That is fair.

BTW, from Boston College's Website:

Whether you have a health emergency, orthopedic problem, women's or men's health concern, a bad case of flu, or need a medical consultation you can expect excellent care, dispensed by health professionals who are nondiscriminatory, nonjudgmental, friendly, concerned and accessible.

bc

Now please tell me that, that isn't misleading if you were not a Catholic. Sounds to me, that you would get birth control if you desired.

I have found nothing in the bible that says birth control is wrong.

However Catholics have the right to their own views.

I really do not favor employer health plans. I would prefer cash rather than a health plan so I could choose what if any plan to buy.

If there is a health plan the employers should be allowed to offer whatever plans they choose. Employees could buy additional coverage elsewhere.

I don't believe any Catholic school would dispense birth control.

I doubt aBuddhistwould know that. Once again, you would have to know something about being Catholic. I can't say that I know all of the rules and regulations of different denominations of being Protestant. Most people don't get that there are dozens ofdenominationsof being Jewish. And forgetaboutit, when it comes to knowing anything being a Seik. Do you see what I mean?

Your right that is how it would be actually dealt with, but for those other faiths read how they would beaccommodated, and then how healthcare seems comprehensive, it is very misleading.

They really need to be honest and upfront for those who might be under a false impression, which I really believe is there to get students in. Once there, they stand a better chance of staying. Without being upfront, then the church can't complain when they are told to give out birth control.

As I said earlier, truth in advertising. That is all I am asking for.

Orderinga Catholic university or hospital to dispense birth control is like ordering a Chasidic or Muslim institution to serve pork.

Such violates the First Amendment: "

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Such an order prohibits the free exercise thereof.

Many Catholic hospitals accept all comers because their religious principles inhibits them from turning needy people away. If they are forced to provide contraceptives to non-Catholicsthey likely would accept only Catholics and society would be the loser.

See following article by a Catholic, Protestant and Jew:

United We Stand for Religious Freedom

ObamaCare's contraception mandate stands the First Amendment on its head.

online.wsj

A religion has principles that may be extra-biblical. Who are we to dictate principles to a religion or decide for themthat their practices are incorrect?

But, as a matter of fact, the Bible prohibits "spilling seed." This is interpreted as preventing pregnancy in intercourse by artificial means.

The fact that not all religious adherents obey all its laws is irrelevent.

This is one subject that I admit to being totally, 110% non-objective about. I have no problem at all about birth-control but it always leads to discussions about abortion...I can't go there.

OK.. not sure how this got resurrected, but that's fine. Welcome Len. I see that we come from the same town! Now that is acoincidence.

But, as a matter of fact, the Bible prohibits "spilling seed." This is interpreted as preventing pregnancy in intercourse by artificial means.

And that would also includemasturbation, too, yet I doubt there are many men who don't.

The issue here in this article was that Catholic universities were trying to appeal to a broad spectrum of religious beliefs, many of which don't believe that birth control is a sin and said that they would meet all health needs, which lead many parents and student to think that birth control was a health need that would be provided. They have since clarified that, and probably it will hurt their enrollment slightly.

Mike,

Almost all universities provide on campus birth control as part of their health care services. This is outlined on their campus sites. It is not that it is a right, it is just what the school says it will supply to their student body. It is not free, since it is covered by the school tuition. That is what drove this whole issue in the first place.

I respect that Larry. It is a messy topic.

Welcome Len.

Thank you. Good to be here.

>>I see that we come from the same town! Now that is acoincidence.

Perhaps we have met. We have lived here 50 years.

But, as a matter of fact, the Bible prohibits "spilling seed." This is interpreted as preventing pregnancy in intercourse by artificial means.

>>And that would also includemasturbation, too, yet I doubt there are many men who don't.

Except for the Orthodox ,there are undoubtedly many Jews who use birth control too -- even some Orthodox -- but, as I noted, what individuals do cannot be used as a basis to control the tenets of the religion.

>>The issue here in this article was that Catholic universities were trying to appeal to a broad spectrum of religious beliefs, many of which don't believe that birth control is a sin and said that they would meet all health needs, which lead many parents and student to think that birth control was a health need that would be provided. They have since clarified that, and probably it will hurt their enrollment slightly.

But they never provided birth control previously. I never heard of complaints. People know what they are getting into and, if they don't, can always fill their needs elsewhere. It's a free country with something for everyone.

Losing some patients/students is the least of their concerns today.

Have a niice weekend and thanks again for the welcome.

You have that exactly right!

Hi Friend Larry,

You do not have to be objective to express your views. But it is good of you to recognize yourself. Not many are objective and fewadmit it.

Thanks again for your gracious hospitality.

Randy, you can be "tolerant" of beliefs, but not be accepting of all the beliefs they hold.

Take muslims, for example.

Many other examples, but that's just the hot topic one today.

Damn, another EXACTLY!

The burden would be on the government to show that it doesn't violate the 1st amendment, or it should be.

Note, I just posted a link where a company in Col won a TRO over Obamacare on this very basis.

Nor should it, and hell I couldn't give a damn about the Catholic Church!

Got me! LOL

Real question, however, is where the hell is he taking this Country!

And he's doing it be fiat, executive order!

DAMN! Wish I hadn't read that one!

My honor Len and thank you!

:~)